TOP TEN HITLIST

4/2/2018

Having reached a bit of an impasse in the Zodiac case recently, I thought I would take a trip down memory lane and put together my favorite 10 articles from the 6 years this site has been in existence. They may not be the choice of everybody, but I thought I would place them together for reference purposes. Cheers for all your support down the years- your valued feedback is greatly received.

LAKE HERMAN ROAD-THE BALLISTICS REPORT
Examining the ballistics evidence at Lake Herman Road to determine the possibility of whether two shooters could be eliminated as a viable option in the murder of Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday on December 20th 1968. One retrieved bullet could not be definitively ruled in, as having been fired from the same weapon as other retrieved bullets from the crime scene. Additionally, there was one crucial casing missing from the evidence room.

SACRAMENTO COLD CASE-CONTACT
Linking the 1986 'Zodiac' letter to the April 22nd 1986 double murder of Koy Ien Saechao and Choy Fow Salee in Sacramento. The Laotian couple were brutally gunned down through the front side window of their vehicle while parked up alongside a Sacramento freeway.
This double murder exhibited all the hallmarks of the attack on Michael Mageau and Darlene Ferrin at Blue Rock Springs Park on July 4th 1969.
The letter may or may not have been authored by the Zodiac Killer, but it was almost certainly referencing this crime.

ASK THE VALLEJO COP-IDENTIFIED
Discovering the identity of the Vallejo cop referenced by Zodiac in his November 9th 1969 'Bus Bomb' letter.
The letter finished by stating "To prove that I am the Zodiac, ask the Vallejo cop about my electric gun sight which I used to start my collecting of slaves."
The identity of the Vallejo cop can be discovered by searching newspaper cuttings that inspired the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter, received by the San Francisco Examiner on August 4th 1969. The Vallejo cop was Jack E Stiltz.

CHERI JO BATES-THE ANATOMY OF A CRIME
Examining the brutal stabbing of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside on October 30th 1966 from the standpoint of the autopsy findings.
Could the order of events that evening/night be unfolded by studying the wounds inflicted upon the young woman in the Riverside alleyway.
The killer or killers of Cheri Jo Bates were never caught, yet by closely scrutinizing the findings of pathologist Rene Modglin, we can formulate a possible scenario that ended the life of a beautiful and amiable young woman.

I WANT TO TELL YOU A STORY
Where did the Zodiac Killer go after the murder and attempted murder of Darlene Ferrin and Michael Mageau on July 4th 1969.
Using a liberal sprinkling of geographic profiling, the timeline of the payphone call, and the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter received on August 4th 1969, we presented a case for the murderer living but a short walking distance from the payphone at the intersection of Springs Road and Tuolumne Street.

ONE MILE EAST ON COLUMBUS PARKWAY
Attempting, but probably failing in an attempt to convince, that the Zodiac phone call directions forty minutes after the Blue Rock Springs Park attack were in fact correct from a directional standpoint.
It has long been perceived that police dispatcher Nancy Slover, while attempting to talk over the killer, actually heard and recollected the entire message verbatim, with not one single error. The contrary is perceived of the Zodiac Killer- his message was error strewn from the standpoint of directing police from the station to the crime scene. This doesn't have to be the case.
In the aftermath of the Presidio Heights shooting, observers seem unsure where the negro male description error seemed to have originated from. At Blue Rock Springs many are totally convinced- it was Zodiac.

PRESIDIO HEIGHTS-MINUTE BY MINUTE
Following the movements of the Zodiac Killer, and police officers Armond Pelissetti and Donald Fouke in the aftermath of the Paul Stine murder in Presidio Heights on October 11th 1969.
Attempting to weave the conflicting stories into one coherent timeline, to unearth the movements of the Zodiac Killer once he headed north on Cherry Street and towards the Presidio Park.
This was the last of the Zodiac Killer's canonical five, yet he continued his sustained assault on the newspapers of the day for many years to come.

CHERI JO BATES-REEVALUATING THE CRIME SCENE
Placing Cheri Jo Bates' Volkswagen Beetle back in its rightful position just yards from the library annex.
This positioning was eventually reinforced by police in the December 2017 History Channel docudrama 'The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer.'
Robert Graysmith, author of Zodiac, had placed Cheri Jo Bates' vehicle 75 yards west of the alleyway, which would dramatically have altered the sequence of events that night. This has hopefully corrected that premise.
Part Two.

LAKE HERMAN ROAD-THE SEQUENCE OF SHOTS
This looked at the spent casings on the Lake Herman Road turnout floor and attempted to piece together the unfolding double murder on December 20th 1968.
Using the ballistics evidence and position of the stricken victims, we can piece together one possible order of events. However, there may be many alternatives, not withstanding the possibility that two shooters were present in the turnout at 11.15 pm that night.

THE FLIGHT FOR FREEDOM
Using the autopsy findings from Betty Lou Jensen, it may be possible to understand her position in the turnout that night with respect to the shooter. We know the path she took in her flight for freedom, but can a little more light be shed on whether she was fired upon after the execution of David Faraday, and where she was standing prior to the merciless attack on the young couple that night.

Richard

4/2/2018 10:01:28 am

Other than ciphers or suspects-preferably on the seven most widely attributed attacks by Zodiac. Riverside, Lass, Modesto and the canonical four, does anybody want a specific feature of the crimes covered?

Shawn

4/2/2018 10:27:45 am

Hi Richard,

Maybe an article called "The missing witness" for Paul Stine.
If you have not already covered it.

In the Oct. 12th, 1969 article (From the Chron?) it is stated below:

"Later reports indicated someone was seen running into Julius Kahn playground in the Presidio and all seven police dog units were pressed into the search.

The suspect was described as white, about 40, 170 pounds, a blond crewcut wearing glasses. He was wearing dark shoes and dark grey trousers and jacket"

Foukes never saw anyone running into the Park. The age of 40 given in the article is exactly in the middle of Foukes 35 to 45 age range.

Was there a unknown witness close enough to the park to see a 40 year old white man run into the park?

Richard

4/2/2018 10:53:05 am

Hi Shawn, I have covered it several times, notably before Alex secured the FBI file on Xenophon Anthony.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-sixth-witness-on-spruce-street
I believe there were possibly one or more eyewitnesses observing Zodiac enter the park. Here is an excerpt of why I believe they noticed the killer that night.
If we go on memory, then what Donald Fouke stated in the 1989 'Crime of the Century' documentary is likely more accurate than his differing claims in the 2007 Zodiac documentary. In the 1989 documentary he said after passing the subject on Jackson St "We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect."
This tends to give credence to Zodiac's claims he spoke to and directed the police, considering Donald Fouke was traveling towards Arguello Boulevard and away from a crime scene he should have been approaching. When he received the update to a white male, he naturally may have realized the man he had just encountered may have been the killer. Having last seen the subject enter the top part of Maple, it is understandable that he would have believed the man may have entered the Presidio park over the retaining wall. After passing Zodiac the journey westwards for Donald Fouke to Arguello Boulevard and eastwards along West Pacific Avenue to Julius Khan playground is 810 meters (1/2 mile), taking approximately 1 minute traveling at 30 mph. However he is obviously scouring the roadway and dense undergrowth bordering West Pacific Avenue, so his journey time to Julius Khan Playground likely took nearer to 90 seconds. This places Donald Fouke's patrol car, red light and siren, reaching the area adjacent to Spruce Street at 10.00:30 pm, just slightly before Zodiac also arrives at Spruce Street.
At this point Donald Fouke finds nothing, but his patrol car has ultimately alerted the neighbors, who understandably have looked out of their windows in the area of Spruce Street. Donald Fouke begins to turn his vehicle around as Zodiac approaches, who obviously remains out of sight until Donald Fouke departs back up West Pacific Avenue. Zodiac then makes haste into the park to gain some cover from the upcoming police search. What he doesn't realize though, is that the neighbors are still looking out of their windows and notice Zodiac as he makes haste into the park. Their description is the one given in the October 12th 1969 San Francisco Chronicle article.

Richard

4/2/2018 11:00:20 am

Oh, and by the way I've checked ancestry records for 1 and 2 Spruce Street, and no 8-year old child lived there in 1969.

John

4/2/2018 02:01:53 pm

Richard, when it comes to the Zodiac Killer, it seems that we have talked about everything. It surely is frustrating. It would be nice if investigators released evidence that's been withheld for all these years; let the "community" have a look at it and see what they come up with. But we all know that's not going to happen. The only thing we can do is go back over the crimes with a fine-tooth comb and see if we missed anything. Anyhow, Richard, I tip my hat to you because you run a fine site with excellent articles. Someday, hopefully, the mystery will be solved....

Richard

4/2/2018 02:30:25 pm

Cheers John, I hope so, then we can all have a well deserved break.

Ray Jenkins

4/2/2018 05:42:28 pm

Hi Richard, As you know, any subjects OTHER THAN pet ciphers and pet suspects are appreciated. They tend to be highly subjective and emotional topics, and the comments section prone to degenerate into a similarly high degree of variability and anarchy. And of course yours truly will be painted as the ogre if he finds fault with said suspect or cipher or dares ask a pertinent question. ;-)
And you already know how I feel about loony conspiracy theories and I know you feel the same way, which is one of the reasons why I find your blog pages so refreshing. You always look at the facts and the science behind things.
Cheers,
Ray

Drew

4/4/2018 01:33:05 pm

Hi Richard, I don't know if I have any coherently focused article ideas or not, but there is a lot more I would like to squeeze out of your brain!

I would like to see a timeline/location map of the Zodiac's known/suspected movements based on where the crimes occurred and where the cannon/outlier letters were sent from. The quick response of the debut letter sent from SF for example gives us a lot to think about, as does the leading (to Vallejo) tone of the early correspondences. Perhaps a discussion could emerge about his times of activity and inactivity and we could get a better sense of the likelihood of certain questioned letters and crimes.

As far as specific crimes to outline I too like the eternal little mysteries within the cannon crimes. Why wait half a year after LHR to begin the media campaign? Why did the Zodiac allegedly state on the phone to Nancy Slover that he used a luger at BRS when ballistics tell a different story? Why withhold the BRS photos? What evidence other than By Knife could have been withheld from LB? If BRS was a copycat of LHR, and LB was a response to the Manson family, was Paul Stine was a copycat of the earlier cabbie abduction? Why do we have only two pages of reports about Pacific Heights?

There are many popular theories about how to profile the Zodiac. We can see how these ideas gain support because there are so many clues (and red herrings) to build off of. A cop, a navy man, a pilot, newspaper guy, mailman, cultist, criminal, non-criminal... what merits do these theories have and what indications are there that these ideas won't hold up to scrutiny?

You have done a great job over the years going beyond the cannon and looking at the lesser known outlier crimes like Hood and Garcia, Robert Salem, the Sacramento freeway double, and I actually doubt there is much more known on any of those to go further with, but if you do have anything else to add on those by golly I would certainly be interested.

Richard

4/4/2018 11:12:27 pm

These are wide ranging questions and thoughts Drew, but the question of inactivity could tell us more about the Zodiac than his actual crimes, In particular his near 3 year absence from March 71 to January 74. I wrote a little on this previously, showing his winter 'hibernation'.
"After the first confirmed murders at Lake Herman Road on December 20th 1968, the Zodiac Killer reappeared on July 4th 1969, a gap of 197 days. At the end of 1969 he mailed us the Melvin Belli Letter on the anniversary of the Lake Herman Road double murder, but would again go into winter hibernation from December 20th 1969 until the arrival of the 'My Name is....Letter' on April 20th 1970, a gap of 122 days. This excludes the disputed Modesto abduction of Kathleen Johns on March 22nd 1970, but even if it was included the difference would still amount to 93 days. Finally, the end of 1970 would again see the Zodiac Killer disappear beyond the radar, from his mailing of the Halloween Card on October 27th 1970 to the Los Angeles Letter on March 13th 1971, a gap of 138 days. Three consecutive years with periods of hibernation spanning 197,122 and 138 days, averaging out at 152 days or 5 months of silence, yet on every other occasion the time delay between contact is less than a month. Is this coincidence, if not where did he go during these periods of inactivity. Did he take his crimes out of state, did he visit family or did a particular profession negate his ability for contact."
The rest I will think about, but certainly, the near 7 month delay after the first confirmed crime at LHR is notable. Is it because it was his first foray into murder, and being close to home needed to let things blow over, so to speak. His written contact, in the form of usable evidence, did shorten in time the further the crime from Vallejo/Benicia, but with limited attacks this is hardly compelling.

Drew

4/6/2018 10:40:32 am

Thanks for the thoughts Richard. I realize I just randomly blurted out a bunch of crazy questions and topics from all over the case! Knowing how just a kernel of an idea can often grow into a concept for an article I thought I would just see if I could spark something for you. I surely don't expect you to laboriously go through and respond to it all! Cheers

Freedom

4/16/2018 03:45:00 pm

Hi Richard - I like your Hit List.

Try Mine. They may give you some things to think about.

everything's a rich man's trick part 1, part 2, and 3 - YouTube

Howard_Miller

4/16/2018 04:45:39 pm

Meh!

Shawn

4/2/2018 01:34:39 pm

Yes, it looks like you covered the Chron article really well in this article link you gave me. Great job.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-sixth-witness-on-spruce-street

I want to believe Foukes speculated the man ran into playground and that is why the age of 40 given and why this description fits the the description that Foukes gave.

It is amazing how the details of the Oct. 12 Chron article lines up with the Oct 13 Zodiac article. Almost like the case of Zodiac potentially coping info from the newspaper regarding the Kathleen Johns abduction newspaper. (taking credit for the johns abduction)

"The S.F. police would have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly"

With Stine's Shirt included in the letter it makes the letter writer definitely associated with Stine's murder.

With Stine's shirt as proof. Zodiac had clout to embellish the story in the October 13th letter and November 9th letter regarding the Stine murder.

Lots of disagreements between cops on what happened. Lots of unknowns. Zodiac sits back laughing having sent the Stine's shirt as definitive proof and having the upper hand on what is believed.

Ray Jenkins

4/2/2018 05:50:40 pm

Did the Zodiac have a sense of humour? There is a topic for ya. I note that Shawn says the Zodiac would have "sat back laughing" at the cops. I read that all the time about the Zodiac laughing in sinister manner like a stereotypical mad-man about this and that. But I wonder, was he such a comedian. Perhaps he was a psychopath who barely raised a corner of his lip to show his satisfaction with the creation of a clever pun. Was it more an intellectual (mental laugh) that he had, rather than a hearty belly laugh? I guess we will never know for sure. Clearly he had a sense of humour, but was it a regular sense of humour, or more a sick and perverted, psychopathic one? It hardly seems relevant I know, but this is something I have regularly pondered whenever I read comments like "he must have had a good laugh at the police running around chasing false leads" etc. I have often made such statements myself.

Judith

4/3/2018 07:07:09 pm

He was very funny. It was disarming. It made you love him. He could also be very cruel. Very conversational. Made you think he really cared about you. There were different personalities presenting. For my suspect P.S.P. One of the funniest people I have ever known.

Ray Jenkins

4/4/2018 02:46:32 am

Very interesting Judith. Sociopaths can appear very amicable, friendly and caring towards others, particularly strangers, but it is all a sham in order to get what they want. They are only ever looking out for themselves, but are very good at covering up the fact. They frequently only reveal their true characters to work colleagues who suspect nothing until they suddenly get stabbed in the back (metaphorically). They also tend to reveal their true personality to close family, or sometimes to only one or two family members as they will attempt to pit one family member against another. I have come across sociopaths in various work environments. It has never been a pleasurable experience. You think they care and they are always laughing and entertaining. But after they crush you in the workplace they are still laughing about it and show no empathy whatsoever to the victims. They think it is a joke. They also try to manipulate close family to bring them in line with their sense of authority and superiority. Basically they are very sociable people, but loveless, and rather empty inside. They see society as something to exploit rather than be a part of. To fill their emptiness they crave attention and control.

Ray Jenkins

4/2/2018 05:57:26 pm

Another thing I have often pondered is this. If Toschi was at one time accused of faking Zodiac correspondence, this kind of suggests that Toschi's own handwriting must have looked somewhat similar to the Zodiac's handwriting, does it not? So perhaps, just perhaps, the Zodiac knew what Toschi's handwriting looked like and had goone to considerable lengths to mimic it. I realize this sounds far-fetched, and I can't believe I am writing about it here. Still, it is a question that keeps nagging at me. Does anybody have samples of Toschi's handwriting to compare with the Zodiac's? Of course I am in no way suggesting that Toschi could have been the Zodiac. I have just wondered if maybe the Zodiac was a cop who was closer to Toschi than anybody realized, or at least close enough to know what his writing looked like. It is a reasonable question I feel, and as the saying goes "there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers".

Ray Jenkins

4/2/2018 06:04:31 pm

Another question I have pondered? Do tyres (sorry tires... US!) really leave no tread on frozen ground? I take it the ground was only partially frozen at the site and somewhat moist underneath. I recall a police detective was quoted to say "There were no tracks because the ground was frozen". Well I have driven over frozen ground myself, and providing the ground is dry and dusty enough, you will still get a tread. The temperature makes no difference. Also ground tends to freeze only on top, but can still be spongy underneath, so you will still get an imprint from the tread. I have never really bought the whole "NO TRACKS ON FROZEN GROUND" report. I wonder if, after so many years, the real truth about the tread marks could be revealed.

Lemonboy

4/2/2018 06:22:57 pm

Richard in reference to your last article on police withholding information do you think there’s anything of importance that hasn’t been released to the public?Ive heard rumors that there were wing walker footprints at the scene of the Domingos/Edwards murders, but it has never been confirmed.If it were true that would be a pretty big clue but for some reason it was never confirmed.Are there any other rumors you have heard of possible important clues?Thanks in advance

Ray Jenkins

4/2/2018 10:42:49 pm

I have heard that rumour too. Good question.

I'm not sure if the police are withholding information or if the real story is that the Zodiac case is now virtually a cold case. Even finding someone in a Sheriff's office who still knows anything about the case or who is still remotely interested in the case is fast approaching none. So if they are withholding anything, I doubt if this is intentional. Finding the evidence again may in fact be the greatest challenge.

Richard

4/3/2018 01:36:36 am

Quite possibly Lemonboy. The Presidio Heights police report is only 2 pages long with many unanswered questions. In the KPIX news report from November 12th 1969 Chief Martin Lee stated "The dangers and illegality of pre-trial publicity, we assume one day we are going to catch this man and we are, and certain evidence must be kept from the public.In other words he cannot be tried in the press- the precise evidence that I am speaking of, I cannot even describe to you, but I think I can say this much, that there is considerable evidence of many different kinds."
https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/231079
In the October 1st 1969 San Francisco Chronicle, referring to the Berryessa attack, the police stated "There were a couple of other things we're still holding back so we'll be able to identify the man if he wants to call us again." This may be a play on words referring to "By Knife", but could be a separate piece of evidence they're holding back. There are no photographs at all of the Blue Rock Springs Park attack, even the vehicle after the event, so whether intentional or not I'm not sure. The trip sheet wasn't mentioned in the Presidio Heights police report and no details or images of it have surfaced in 49 years, so is certainly being held back. There are almost always key pieces of information held back from the public, but after nearly half a century the justification for doing so loses its credibility.

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 05:24:16 am

And the USA no longer seems to be honoring FOIL requests??? I guess everything in those old archives was "fake news" anyway (?)

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 05:56:44 am

I'm sure there are good reasons for not releasing info after so many years. I doubt if there is some sinister Government plot to "hold back" info on the Zodiac case, although I can understand why some documents cannot be released. Really the Zodiac case is no different to any other cold case, when it comes to what has been released and what has not been released. There are many issues involved. Time is one thing. It can take days, weeks, months to search for particular documents when public servants are often time poor and needed elsewhere. "Why do people really need to know that?" is perhaps a question on the mind of the person who is acting on a request and conducting a search. Or is it more a case of "Why do people WANT to know that?" So it comes back to a reasonable right to freedom of information versus the desires of a general hobbyist who is potentially just "wasting our time", (in the mind of the bureaucrats). If unsure, there is a tendency to err on the side of caution and redact all names and addresses and "sensitive" info that relates to any person. But after 49 years... wow, that is a lot of dust to blow away! And the info is not all sitting on one shelf in one place. It would take a very diligent private investigator or police detective days, weeks, months of their time searching the archives and gathering the information. I tend to think that this is why so much info has never been released. What we do know comes from diligent investigators, the likes of Goldsmith and, dare I speak his name, the illustrious Tom Voigt. Other little tidbits have surfaced from time to time, mainly from heavily redacted FOIL requests. What we really have is a very incomplete picture of the case. The case is a puzzle, but made moreso due to the lack of information and, to some extent, confusing nature of the information in the public domain. The current state of play in US politics suggests this situation will not change any time soon. The feeling one gets from Washington is, "Why do people need new information on these kinds of old things? What people should be doing is looking forward to making America Great again. Let the past be forever mythologized."

Richard

4/3/2018 04:12:33 am

The only thing I know about Wing Walkers and Domingos and Edwards, is from Zodiac Unmasked "One convict spotted twenty .22-caliber shell casings glimmering in the canyon creek bed. Detectives spied something too—shoe tracks cut deeply into the light sand and sparse grass leading to and from the ragged shelter. The tracks came from a Navy or Air Force shoe similar to Wing Walkers. Both the ammo and shoes were sold through base exchanges. Vandenberg Air Force Base, a SAC unit, lay near Lompoc, and was only an hour’s drive from the murder site."

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 07:04:23 am

Now,now....all this despondency and pessimism is ''no use'' at all.

The truth will be revealed....it's just a case of how that truth is revealed.

The contents of your site,Richard,has the makings of a great book.If you look around the other sites,no one has put the Zodiac,in an accompanying illustrative focus,as you have.

Even if you compiled a ''coffee table'' book,it would be a great ''coffee table'' book [!].

Yes we want answers.....but unless Zodiac throws in the towel,the first time the law ''feels his collar'',it will probably be a long drawn out process.

Battling with patience,and observing apparent procrastination,is testing.''We'' feel we are owed more than this.

As members of the public,we probably are owed more.But only because we have elected to take a keener interest,than others.

Zodiac is still alive,and still there for the taking.

''Honest,..guv...''

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 03:05:34 pm

As a believer that Zodiac has been dead since the 70s Richard what would change of your opinion is he were to be found responsible for either the Bates murder or the Domingos/Edwards? On this list you have the 1986 murders in Sacramento which I also believe were Zodiac and not an imposter. I do believe his body count of 37 is accurate and he wasn’t lying. Just trying to start a healthy discussion so what you guys think?

Richard

4/3/2018 03:53:22 pm

It's odd really, because while I believe he likely died probably before 1975, or was jailed before 1975 then died in prison, after I found the murders in Sacramento in 1986, on the correct date by a freeway, it sort of threw me into doubt. Of course the 1986 letter could be a hoaxer, but considering no double murders were committed in Sacramento by a freeway anywhere other than this particular event, it left me in no doubt the letter was referring to this double murder. Its similarity to the first two attacks by Zodiac is certainly something to ponder. However, I still edge towards Zodiac dying or being jailed in the 70s. I'm totally unconvinced by the Domingos/Edwards murders, despite the similarity to Lake Berryessa. I tend to believe these murders were committed by more than one person. The sheer difficulty in dragging two bodies 60 yards in that terrain into a shack, is an extremely difficult task for one person, let alone placing one body atop of the other. Zodiac, after committing all his crimes, other than tearing a bit of shirt, never tried to remove the body from the exact site of the murder. After the couple were killed in 1963, why set fire to the shack and draw attention to oneself. Just leave the scene.
The ammo boxes are certainly not going to be carried to the scene by one individual for the sole purpose of ambushing a couple..Just a fully loaded revolver, with a few spare bullets would be ample, particularly if you took rope and a knife to secure the victims first. The whole scenario to me anyway, indicates 2 or more assailants.

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 04:34:27 pm

Four possibilities:

1) Total coincidence. They do happen.
2) Copycat?
3) Father and son "team". Son inherited father's "occupation" but perhaps not his persona?
4) Zodiac is still alive (VERY doubtful).

I agree with you Lemonboy. Zodiac as a criminal entity most likely "died" around about the same time that Allen Leigh went to prison on an unrelated crime. After that time, anything "Zodiac-esque" belonged to the copycats, the main of which were some members of the Manson family. Many people like to think Zodiac survived because it adds to the excitement of their own mental constructs relating to what they perceive a "legend" should be like. He was no legend. He was just a man and a crazy one at that. He came, he killed, he went. And many would say "Good riddance to him" wherever he may have ended up.

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 05:17:27 pm

Good points as always Richard Domingos was an offensive lineman on his HS varsity team so he was probably pretty difficult to drag to the shack by one person.

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 03:07:47 pm

The fact that the footprints might’ve been uncovered at the Domingos/Edwards site confirms to me that there are way more than 5 in Zodiacs body count but I guess until police confirm to the public we’ll never know for sure

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 03:51:36 pm

Good to keep the debate open on Zodiac's ''body count'',Lemonboy.

I believe the starting point,should always be the 5 Bay Area murders.

We have no real reason to disbelieve L.E. on this [?].

The Domingos/Edwards murders seem persuasive,for a few reasons.

If Zodiac knew Darlene Ferrin,he may have committed other murders,in the past.

Cheri Jo Bates is a high profile ''possible''....but I feel that Zodiac's guilt here,lies in ''Extortion''.

So,seven murders might be a reasonable estimate,up to 1970.

Then,what beyond 1970 ?

I don't believe that Zodiac died in the 1970's Lemonboy.He just ''went away'',believing that Bay Area,was in his past.

I believe he killed again,but not immediately.

''37'' is just way OTT.,and those that try to pin him down,on telling the truth all the time....are in dreamland.

But it would be good to hear why you think he died,in the 70's,Lemonboy.

And ''why'' you think he ''wasn't'' lying [?].

Sincerely.

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 05:29:53 pm

Actually rubislaw I don’t believe he died in the 70s. I was referring to how Richard believes he did must’ve worded that incorrectly sorry about that. I actually think there’s a chance the 86 letter was legit. Might sound crazy but hear me out. If your gonna hoax why be so subtle? I feel if it was someone making it up why not look up names of those killed and include them in the letter?Why not write something a little more extravagant? I feel the letter was written in a way that the real Zodiac can’t be ruled out. I’m not promoting him but damn I feel he might’ve still been active in 86 maybe even after.Maybe wishful thinking I admit, but the more recent the crimes and the more crimes he committed the more likely for him to one day be caught.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 05:43:04 pm

Understood Lemon boy....and respect your views.

L.E.'s procrastination tires me....but a small window of ''possibility'' has opened up...recently.

''Operation Bynum''....if anyone chooses to check it out.

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 05:47:13 pm

What’s your opinion rubislaw? You asked for mine it’s only fair I respectfully ask for yours.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 06:02:12 pm

Well,in a nutshell [...and pardon the pun..].Zodiac ''went away''.because his work took him away.

As John has referred,he then focused in his pen,being mightier than the sword.

But,a ''blip'' took place in his life,in the run in to 1978....hence the second coming of Zodiac,with three possible letters.

Between 1978 and 1982,I believe Zodiac committed 4 murders....none in California.

Then,a ''swan song'' single one,in recent years.

Hopefully,the one that will finally nail him.

John

4/3/2018 04:27:37 pm

I have two theories: Zodiac was placed in a mental institution sometime in the early 1970s, or as Rubislaw wrote, simply went away, feeling happy with what he accomplished. I do believe the Stine murder put the fear of God in him, since he was almost caught that night. He made crucial errors that night but lady luck was on his side. From then on he used his pen to terrorize Northern California instead of his gun.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 04:44:40 pm

Wholly agree with you,John....though it is very possible that Zodiac was just too smart and aware,to put himself anywhere near a ''loony bin''.

Sometimes we underestimate the difficulty,in getting away with an urban crime,such as Paul Stine's [?].

And,from what we believe that we know about Zodiac,Stine's murder may well be unique,in that Zodiac committed it,without his ''trusted'' motorcar....until the ''end game''.

Like a cowboy without his horse,Zodiac was all too aware of his ''self handicapping''.

Indeed...he put the fear of God,in himself.

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 05:05:45 pm

Zodiac was just too smart and aware,to put himself anywhere near a ''loony bin''.

Too smart and aware? Well of course, he was SO smart he knew exactly what he was doing and he was always the one in control. You are starting to identify and empathize too much with this nutty serial killer methinks. You sometimes talk as though he is your "bestie". You have come to know him so well you should consider going shopping with him and taking in a movie. lol!

The irony is I am sure the vast majority of loony serial killers have believed precisely the same thing. Massive egos tend to possess a god-like sense of being invulnerable and totally "bullet proof" to the world around them, and they will still persist with such a boastful belief even when they are placed in custody or said loony bin. They frequently fall victim to believing totally in their own mythology. Then when you meet them you find they have teeth missing, dirty and tangled hair, numerous spots on their face and very bad breath. :-)

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 04:49:11 pm

As a general rule serial killers do not simply "go away", suddenly feeling satisfied with themselves. I do not believe the Zodiac would have ever felt satiated or satisfied. I am sure there are always exceptions to the rule, but in this case it would seem highly unusual.

There is little doubt for instance that if Manson had gone un-noticed by the authorities and taken his followers to the "promised land" out into some hot and dusty hell-hole of a desert some place (as he often declared he would) his days of killing would not have ended. Once things settled down he would have still sent his brainwashed believers to kill other innocent people. Likewise with the Zodiac. I just can't imagine him thinking one day "Oh wow, I have finally reached my tally and now I have enough slaves for my Afterlife! Now I can finally go straight, because I don't have to go out killing people any more! Woohoo!!!" Absolute bollocks!

Rubislaw 32 link

4/3/2018 05:13:32 pm

Ray...when are the nurses going to take you back to the asylum ?

And,spare us all,your hot air and bile.

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 05:17:40 pm

"The truth? You can't handle the truth!"

Great line, great movie.

Lemonboy

4/3/2018 05:39:06 pm

I actually agree.If he was never caught why would he stop? He was too egotistical and too crazy too just hang it up. I don’t think he was as close to being caught as we think he was after the Stine murder. Someone that had the fear of god in him wouldn’t have sent a piece of a blood stained shirt just a couple days after he was seen by 2 cops at a murder scene. He definitely wasn’t scared off enough to stop like people assume. Maybe he decided to change his methods but not stop.

Ray Jenkins

4/3/2018 05:51:57 pm

It is plausible that he changed his methods. It is unusual for a serial killer to change their M.O., but the Zodiac did always show variability from one crime to the next, suggesting he was capable to some extent of adapting with the circumstances. Being "all over the place" has its distinct advantages, but of course this erratic nature may not have been due to his "cleverness". It may have been more due to the erratic nature of his mental condition/health.

Judith

4/3/2018 06:19:29 pm

There was no enlightenment, try as he may. The voices in his head never ceased. He just became better at killing people and getting away with it. There are many, many unsolved murders/missing persons in California. My suspect, PSP, in the 1990s was reported to have lured in men, to his shack by the Bay in Hercules, under the guise of a homosexual encounter. After killing them he would say, "They won't be missed." He was choosing victims that were down and out, that no one cared about.

Ray Jenkins

4/4/2018 03:07:58 am

"There was no enlightenment, try as he may. The voices in his head never ceased. He just became better at killing people and getting away with it."

That does sound perfectly as we would expect, if we accept that he was the Zodiac and he was still alive.

If he degenerated somewhat, going from killing the most loved and cherished young people in society to "down and outs", this could perhaps be reflecting two things: 1) He had to be more careful and keep a lower profile post-Stine, having been almost caught. 2) His deteriorating mental health would tend to result in a less technical modus operandi. He could still kill, just not have to think so hard about all the factors that could get him caught. If he got muddled due to the confusing or conflicting voices in his head, mistakes were less likely to result in capture in a more controlled environment.

Everything you say is entirely plausible. I just have a feeling the Zodiac as a criminal persona disappeared soon after the Stine murder. But I am just guessing based on my hunch, which contributes nothing to the facts. I could be entirely wrong. But at least I do not, like some, claim to understand the mind of the Zodiac so well that I can predict his behavior as if it were my own. A lot of Zodiac researchers make the mistake of believing the Zodiac has become their own "secret pal". This seems to be a common intellectual delusion. So we hear things like "It took me a long time to get into the head of the Zodiac and understand him, but once I did I solved the 340 cipher". etc. etc. I dislike the Zodiac so much that the last thing I want is to have him as my "invisible friend" and I have no allusions to become his delusional incognito spokesperson.

Shawn

4/4/2018 07:25:33 am

Was PSP ever arrested for serious crime?

Judith

4/4/2018 08:42:46 pm

Peter had to do weekends at the county jail called Santa Rita when he was young for compounding drunk driving arrests. He would not be arrested again until I left him early 1999 then there were many many arrests including a DUI conviction and he just never showed up to do his time and nobody cared. Realize with regards to the Sacramento murders, I come from Sacramento, and Peter and I would frequently visit my family that lived up there. Speaking of which pay close attention to the Zodiac's letters, when he references LA as "down there" and Sacramento as "up there" he is speaking as someone who is living in the Bay Area.

Ray Jenkins

4/4/2018 11:26:25 pm

Judith, this question may seem irrelevant, but can you provide a firm date for when his mother died? Also, was he close to her or was the opposite the case?

Ray Jenkins

4/5/2018 12:01:28 am

You know, I had never really considered that "up" and "down" referencing before. Yes it does tend to suggest he was a Bay area native! These kinds of "slips of the tongue" in his writing do tend to catch him out on many occasions. Serial killers are cunning and clever, but even they make mistakes. It is often the little nuances that give them away. It is impossible for anyone to lie all of the time, or to be completely random for that matter. And the more prolific they are in their writing, the more "slip ups" they tend to make.

Ray Jenkins

4/4/2018 11:48:36 pm

Sad! What the world DOES not need now are more pretend Zodiacs! :-(

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/reddit-user-claims-austin-bomber-compares-zodiac-article-1.3886094

Ray Jenkins

4/5/2018 12:44:10 am

Damn, I meant to capitalize the NOT as well.

Ray Jenkins

4/4/2018 11:52:08 pm

Ed Edwards is back in the limelight again thanks to a new book.

http://www.kpax.com/story/37870877/ex-montana-detectives-book-to-be-featured-in-documentary

I have to admit, out of all the handwriting I have looked at, I still think Edwards comes the closest.

Richard

4/5/2018 12:13:09 am

I'm surprised Cameron hasn't linked Ed Edwards to the Jack the Ripper murders. The only scary thing about this story is that Cameron used to be a police officer. He didn't have to solve any murders during his career, because they were all committed by Ed Edwards. Mind you, he had to have committed 500 murders, because that allows for a few book sequels and a 500 part docudrama on Netflix.

Ray Jenkins

4/5/2018 12:42:31 am

Yes Richard, it's funny isn't it. Cops can stitch up all kinds of fabrications in order to frame someone. But if an everyday citizen does the same thing and goes to them with the "evidence", they are more often than not treated like fools. One should remember that the main proponent of the Dennis Rader theory was another ex-cop.

Still, I like that handwriting!

Judith

4/5/2018 07:26:13 am

Hi Ray have you seen the numerical comparison between Peter and the zodiac. The blip that happened in May of 1978 was that he married an innocent teenager. He had never been married before, not even lived with a woman. As I've told you before, Peter's mother molested little boys, as my son told me she perpetrated on him, this is my son who has spent his life in prison, a broken person.
Peter had an extremely close relationship with Helen, his mother. When she died the nice personality which dwelled inside him died too. After that I only saw the mean and cruel Peter. She treated him like he was King God and could do no wrong, but obviously he did. He was her only child. This is in my book. The day his mother died his father called our home before he called the police. Peter went over to the house and his mother lie naked on the bathroom floor. He had a Contra Costa County Sheriff help him lift her dead naked body off the bathroom floor and put her in her bed. Sometimes karma is a bitch.

Ray Jenkins

4/5/2018 03:28:29 pm

All very, very interesting. I'm glad you have people in LE who are treating him seriously as a potential suspect.

Judith

4/5/2018 04:41:31 pm

I appreciate your listening to my story. This can be painful for me. Mrs. Shame the Queen of Pain.

Powaqqatsi

4/8/2018 11:17:19 am

simper fie delis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKlKGB3YwjE

We have no rights.
Dump the patriot act.
We are slaves.
Dump fiat money.
We are divided.
Dump the CIA.
We are perpetually at war.
Dump the MIC.
Blog that!

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