THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS-PART TWO

2/10/2020

It must be stressed that in the autopsy report by Rene Modglin, the word "laceration" is being used to mean incised wound (stab wound), not its true definition of "a tear in the skin or flesh". Although emergency medicine providers commonly describe any break in the skin as a laceration, this terminology is forensically and technically incorrect. A laceration is defined as a tear in tissue caused by a shearing or crushing force. Therefore, a laceration is the result of a blunt-trauma mechanism. A laceration is further characterized by incomplete separation of stronger tissue elements, such as blood vessels and nerves. These stronger tissue elements account for “tissue bridging” which is seen in lacerations. In addition, lacerations commonly occur over bony prominences and tend to be irregularly shaped with abraded or contused margins. Lacerations are typically caused by hard objects like a pipe, rock, or the ground. An easy way to remember the difference is to think of a glass beer bottle. If someone takes the bottle and smashes it over someone’s head and the skin is opened, that is a laceration. If a person breaks the bottle on a table and uses the piece to slash someone, it is an incised wound. Link.

When determining whether the author of the Confession letter mailed on November 29th 1966 was the killer, little attention is paid to the autopsy report. Although the basics of the attack on Cheri Jo Bates was covered in the newspapers such as "stabbed in the back, arms and face, and her throat slashed" (which is only partially accurate), is there anything else in the autopsy report that could lend weight to the murderer and author being the same person. The retelling of the attack on Cheri Jo Bates over the last 53 years has for a large part been totally inaccurate, with the notion of an organized and experienced knife attack, and Cheri Jo Bates receiving 40+ stab wounds and nearly decapitated, totally unsubstantiated by the autopsy report of Surgeon F. Rene Modglin (46). The autopsy report paints a totally different picture. In the last article the complete findings of the autopsy report was written in text form, to provide an easily readable reference point and allow people to 'cut and paste' any details that they require. If we are to determine whether the author of the Confession letter was the killer, then we have to examine its contents in relation to publicly unreleased details contained within the autopsy report. Here is a basic overview of the wounds inflicted on Cheri Jo Bates in picture form, however, to understand the entire autopsy report, open the last article in a new tab for quick and easy reference.

The Confession letter stated "Her breast felt very warm and firm under my hands" and went on to say "I shall cut off her female parts and deposit them for the whole city to see". It therefore should be noted that the autopsy report only detailed three wounds to the young woman's chest - two in the left breast and one in the right. Here are the three entries.
[10] A 1.4 cm fresh vertical gaping sharp edge laceration in the upper medial quadrant of the left breast in the second ICB (Intercostal block).
[11] A 1.9 cm gaping sharp edge fresh laceration of the lower medial quadrant of the right breast in the third inner space.
[12] A 1.7 cm mainly transverse fresh laceration of the skin of the left chest over the 5th rib and centered about 2 cm medial to the left vertical nipple line.

Was this indicative of a killer primarily targeting the sexual organs of Cheri Jo Bates, or quite possibly targeting the heart for a fatal strike? Surgeon F. Rene Modglin described no substantive damage to any of the major or minor organs below the neck line, only "two moderately superficial lacerations in the anterior and medial of the left lung". This lies in close proximity to the heart, nestled near the midline of the chest cavity. The two strikes to the left breast undoubtedly responsible for the superficial damage to the anterior of the left lobe of the lung. It is these wounds that likely gave F. Rene Modglin the estimate for the minimum knife length, based on the entry point on the breast, along with the depth of the left lung and angle of the wound. He estimated "the minimum instrument dimensions for the knife blade would be half inch wide and three and a half inches long". However, this is only a minimum estimate, so the knife could have been a lot longer - further backed up by his comments at the end of the autopsy, where he added "There were no tell tale marks to indicate it had been plunged in up to the hilt". If no hilt marks could be observed, there is no way to fully determine the length of the knife and hence why F. Rene Modglin only gave a minimum estimate.

Cheri Jo Bates

There was no major damage to any of the major organs in the torso of Cheri Jo Bates, despite the fact a 3 1/2 inch knife blade certainly has the capability to achieve such a feat. Other than the two superficial 'lacerations' on the left lung, the attack on Cheri Jo Bates doesn't appear like a competent killer who used brute force in a full frontal attack, with most of the wounds to her body lateral with little depth penetration. This could be interpreted in several ways, such as an inexperienced assailant or a less than powerful attacker. There is no way to confidently determine the order of the wounds, as F. Rene Modglin concluded, stating "the sequence of the lacerations of the neck cannot be fully established nor is there any reasonable suggestion of their order of occurrence by examination of the body". It also cannot be concluded by reading the autopsy report the number of assailants involved in the October 30th 1966 murder.

The Confession letter continued, claiming "She let out a scream once and I kicked her in the head to shut her up. I plunged the knife into her and it broke. I then finished the job out cutting her throat". The only wounds to partly corroborate that the killer "kicked her in the head" was entry number two and three in the autopsy report.
[2] A 2 cm oblique ragged edge fresh non gaping laceration of the upper lip on the left side, that angles laterally from above and extends completely through the thickness of the lip. The teeth behind are not loose or broken.
[3] A dark blue-gray slightly swollen discoloration of mainly the mucocutanous portions of the upper and lower lips of the right side, involving a 2 cm greatest diameter.

This 2 cm ragged edge laceration (as described in the last article) is indicative of blunt force trauma compressing or shearing the lip either from an object, fist or possibly a foot. This could have been a glancing blow across her face because the autopsy report described no broken or loose teeth. Although this doesn't necessarily preclude a direct impact to the lip or mouth. The Confession letter author was effectively concluding his attack on Cheri Jo Bates when he stated "I plunged the knife into her and it broke. I then finished the job out cutting her throat". This may have been partially truthful, in that a knife with a hinge mechanism could have collapsed, causing him to end the attack and primarily use the knife as a slashing instrument on her throat to "finish the job out". There was only one wound to Cheri Jo Bates' back, so it isn't difficult to conclude that this strike was delivered when she was lying face down in the alleyway (and the position her body was ultimately found by investigators). This wound is described in the autopsy report.
[26] A 1.5 cm laceration in the skin of the back on the left side that is fresh, has sharp edge and gape. It is horizontally orientated and its medial and is about 2 cm lateral to the midline and opposite the spinous process of T7 (7th thoracic vertebrae found in the middle of the chest).

Skeletal and Muscular Systems: There is a 1.5 cm oblique cut in the bony portion of the 5th rib anteriorly on the left corresponding somewhat to the skin lacerations over it. There are no other bony lesions - and fractures are looked for. The lacerations of skeletal and muscle have been mentioned under specific areas.

The 1.7 cm laceration to the skin of the left chest over the 5th rib and 2 cm medial to the vertical nipple line, somewhat corresponds to the 1. 5 cm oblique cut in the bony portion of the 5th rib anteriorly - and therefore very likely related to one another. If the knife of the assailant had struck this bony process, then it is quite possible that this was the blow described by the killer when he bragged "I plunged the knife into her and it broke". However, this would have been one of the strikes to the breast, rather than to the back, so although the killer claimed the knife broke, it didn't necessarily have to break when it caused this 1.5 cm cut in the bony portion.

Apart from a 4 cm gaping laceration to Cheri Jo Bates' right upper arm and "two somewhat abraded" lacerations to her left forearm, every single laceration described in the autopsy is 2 cm or less, indicating that the knife didn't necessarily enter and exit the body on a linear trajectory (because of Cheri's dynamic struggle for life). But the size of the wounds are consistent with a half-inch blade: 1.5 cm = 0.59 inches). The vast majority of the wounds were to the hands, fingers, neck and face. It could be suggestive of a killer who began his assault striking at her breasts or heart, before switching focus to her head region, and culminating the attack by inflicting multiple lacerations to her neck region which resulted in the severing of her right carotid artery and both superficial jugular veins.
[8] The anterior neck skin extensively and irregularly lacerated with marked gaping. A deep cut in the thyroid cartilage on both sides and the right common carotid is completely transected as well as the right superficial jugular vein.

The abrasions described at autopsy were limited to the face and hands. One explanation could be when Cheri Jo Bates was transitioned from upright to lying face down in the alleyway with force. Being thrown or slammed down onto a hard surface would inevitably produce injuries to the face, hands and fingers, as one attempts to break their fall. Having your head violently pressed into the alleyway floor under duress could also have resulted in the criss-crossing patterns described on her left cheek.
[6] An area of dark blue-gray discoloration of the skin of the left cheek and chin involving mainly the anterior two of the lacerations just mentioned. It is also criss-crossed by a few fine linear abrasions.

Entry [4] described numerous petechia in the skin of the forehead. These can be caused by manual compression, asphyxiation or strangulation, causing small blood vessels to burst into the skin. Petechiae may be seen on the face (including forehead) and in the whites of the eyes or on the inside of the eyelids.

Petechiae are the small pinpoint collection of blood lying in the skin, the sclera or the conjunctivae and under thoracic serous membranes. They vary in size from tenth of a millimetre to about two millimetres. The petechiae are caused by acute rise in venous pressure that in turn causes over distension and rupture of thin walled peripheral venules, especially in lax tissues, such as the eyelid, and in unsupported serous membranes, such as the visceral pleura and epicardium. This mechanism of raised venous pressure may be supported by the fact that they are rarely found in the victims dying of obstruction to air passages by means other than compression of neck, or from breathing some inert gas. Thus, petechiae are seen most often in the face and eyes of victims of compression of the neck (hanging/ strangulation) or fixation of the chest (traumatic asphyxia).
Link.

This means that Cheri Jo Bates was likely manually restrained at some point, either by compression of the chest cavity, or by compression of the neck by strangulation or being held in a form of choke-hold. The author of the Confession letter described "grabbing her around the neck with my hand over her mouth and my other hand with a small knife at her throat". The combination of strenuous exertion and a restricted airway likely responsible for the burst blood vessels in her forehead. This description by the killer of grabbing her throat immediately preceding the wording "she went very willingly", probably causing the temporary loss of consciousness. F. Rene Modglin in his conclusions highlighted "the time interval of minutes might make one wonder why she wouldn't scream and run for help, however, it is very likely that the suddenness and fear caused by the attack caused her to faint, hence, allowing for many loud and long calls for help". Or more likely, she temporarily fainted due to lack of oxygen to the brain. Cheri Jo Bates was likely able to summon up one final desperate scream before being thrown to the ground - and with the killer kneeling over her, he likely delivered the fatal lacerations to her neck and right carotid artery. Sadly, her valiant resistance ended on a deserted and dirty alleyway.

In summary, we have twenty-six entries in the autopsy report and not one single organ below the neck line received any fatal damage, other than the two superficial marks received by the anterior and medial of the left lung. This is not indicative of somebody who was able to dominate and overpower the young woman, who protected herself the majority of the time with her hands and arms but for the three wounds to her breasts and nothing below the wound of her right breast in the abdominal region. This is not to say it wasn't a vicious and cruel murder, which it undoubtedly was.

We also cannot determine with any great confidence that the Confession letter was the killer, unless we can inextricably bind the "kick to the head" to the lip damage, or the knife breaking to the wound by T7 or the back during the latter stages of the attack. Whatever the case, the desperate search for her killer or killers rages on.

THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS - PART ONE
THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS - PART THREE

20 Comments

2/10/2020 09:05:39 am

"she temporarily fainted due to lack of oxygen to the brain."

Richard you are a 100% correct

Though I was just a baby - a few months from my second b-day.
I did go to college in Riverside and I've lived and worked in the area ever since. So I feel a sense of responsibility to find the killer/s of prettiest girl anyone has seen - Cheri Jo Bates. Thankfully, she was not conscious for the final moment. I don't go along with the death penalty for any one. But, personally, I'd sell my soul to get revenge for her. RIPeace

Roger

2/10/2020 09:09:28 pm

Thanks Richard, I was also puzzled by the much publicized stories of a frenzied attack, but then we look at the evidence and find it was basically only a small pocket knife that the killer had used, and although she had received a lot of stab wounds, not many of the wounds were immediately life threatening. This to me has less of the hallmarks of a serial killer, and more of the hallmarks of a "crime of passion", such as an ex-lover. This was someone who had waited her her in the shadows. He was perhaps out for revenge, or perhaps had a vague notion of wanting to reason with her. She may have at this time begun to fear this person, or she may have still thought she was on speaking terms with him and could therefore reason with him. Maybe as things turned nasty, he had then decided to restrain her, and this proceeded to a struggle and he retaliated with the knife. Perhaps he had never intentionally set out to kill her. Of course as many of these crimes are the result of strong emotions, things got out of hand quickly and he went too far. The fact that it was a small pocket knife tends to rule out a serial killer, who would, we can only presume, have come more prepared with a larger, more deadly weapon. I am convinced that somebody still alive today knows what happened to Cheri Jo Bates. I hope that I live long enough to see him brought to justice. If he is still alive, his conscience must be weighing very heavy by now with the accumulated burden of guilt. She was a beautiful girl, loved by many, who did not deserve to die in this or any other way.

Richard

2/11/2020 01:28:57 am

Although I don't want this taken literally, the crime comes across as a rejected loser who wasn't armed with a knife in a prepared and calculated thought out attack, moreover an inexperienced killer who had never murdered anyone previously. It really isn't that difficult to purchase a sturdy Bowie knife (for example} in preparation for a devastating and brief attack if you are a serial killer, yet here we have multiple non-fatal injuries, until the final cuts to the throat - of which at least seven are detailed at autopsy. Compare this to the murder of Betsy Aardsma, killed in a library with one devastating upwards strike to her heart. If you wanted to overpower a woman such as CJB with a knife (in and out), he could have just slit her throat immediately with one strike. Here we have slashes, jabs, scrapes, abrasions and not one fatal injury until the killer targeted her throat at the end. By which time she was pretty much semi-conscious. This wasn't a prepared killer with an agenda, much more likely an unprepared and inadequate loser who couldn't take rejection. All the more surprising then, that the Zodiac Killer who painted himself as an organised serial killer, would want to associate himself with a rank amateur such as the murderer of Cheri Jo Bates - unless of course you wanted to send investigators on the proverbial wild goose chase into Riverside. As far as we can tell, the Zodiac Killer wasn't a sexual sadist, and certainly never sexually interfered with any of his victims, but in Riverside we have a Confession letter (if the killer of CJB) touching her breast, wanting to cut off female body parts and a specific mention of sisters, daughters and wives, from a person who lay awake at night thinking about brunettes. Zodiac, on the other hand, stated murder was better than getting your rocks off with a girl. I cannot see the correlation between Zodiac and this inadequate imbecile at Riverside, despite the fact both were heartless and pathetic bastards.

Richard

2/13/2020 09:12:50 am

I see Ray Grant has done a wonderful job of strawmanning everything I have said in the above article, interpreting everything I said incorrectly and arguing against it in yet another excessive display of oneupmanship,

Ray Grant: "Because Grinell’s text tends to be a bit mind-numbing, I have taken the extraordinary step of highlighting my own comments in BOLD, which will allow the reader to skip over Grinell’s remarks and go directly to my own if he chooses to do that".

This is not particularly an extraordinary step from Ray, because he is imposing intellectual superiority, even though he cannot read a Timex watch correctly (insisting it read 12:22) and claims the watch stopped, despite it being photographed at the crime scene at 9:07. But as usual has a mind-bending tale to circumvent the obvious.

Ray Grant: "See, Richard Grinell begins to run into trouble the moment he stops paraphrasing my book and begins to think on his own, at which point an alarm should have gone off. He says that a 2 cm laceration is indicative of blunt force trauma. I would suggest that the reader grab a ruler which features both inches and centimeters, in which case he will note that 2 cm is roughly three-quarters of an inch. So the killer punched or kicked Cheri Bates and left a mark that was 3/4 inch. Whatever you say, pal. I would argue that the LACERATION is more likely the knife blade slashing sideways away from the throat and into the lip, with enough force (blunt force trauma, but of a collateral kind) to create some slight bruising".

Emergency medicine: Although emergency medicine providers commonly describe any break in the skin as a laceration, this terminology is forensically and technically incorrect. A laceration is defined as a tear in tissue caused by a shearing or crushing force. Therefore, a laceration is the result of a blunt-trauma mechanism. A laceration is further characterized by incomplete separation of stronger tissue elements, such as blood vessels and nerves. These stronger tissue elements account for “tissue bridging” which is seen in lacerations. In addition, lacerations commonly occur over bony prominences and tend to be irregularly shaped with abraded or contused margins. Lacerations are typically caused by hard objects like a pipe, rock, or the ground. An easy way to remember the difference is to think of a glass beer bottle. If someone takes the bottle and smashes it over someone’s head and the skin is opened, that is a laceration. If a person breaks the bottle on a table and uses the piece to slash someone, it is an incised wound.

Ray Grant: "You run into trouble when you begin treating The Confession Letter as an accurate account of the murder, or even partially accurate in some specifics. As I have pointed out innumerable times by now, almost every sentence of the letter can be challenged, and some parts of it are directly at odds with other evidence, including what people whom we know were at the library reported".

Quote from above article: If we are to determine whether the author of the Confession letter was the killer, then we have to examine its contents in relation to publicly unreleased details contained within. the autopsy report..We also cannot determine with any great confidence that the Confession letter was the killer, unless we can inextricably bind the "kick to the head" to the lip damage, or the knife breaking to the wound by T7 and the back during the latter stages of the attack.
At no point did I claim the Confession letter was an accurate account of the murder, Ray Grant said that, so he could create a straw man argument.

Ray Grant:"The problem with Grinell is that the only homicide case he’s ever looked at is this one, so he doesn’t know that eyewitness testimony tends to contain imperfections".
Incorrect, I have looked into dozens of cases, but seemingly Ray Grant knows my life better than I do. Again, another false statement to rail against.

Ray Grant: "I hate to say this, but now I’m LAUGHING OUT LOUD. Richard Grinell is actually suggesting that a frontal attacker in a pitch dark alley is inflicting short nicks and cuts to torture the victim. Whatever you say, pal".

Again, creating another straw man argument. At no point did I mention a full frontal assault by an attacker. What I actually said was "There was no major damage to any of the major organs in the torso of Cheri Jo Bates, despite the fact a 3 1/2 inch knife blade certainly has the capability to achieve such a feat" All I asked was a question "Was this indicative of a killer primarily targeting the sexual organs of Cheri Jo Bates, or quite possibly targeting the heart for a fatal strike?" There were after all two lacerations to her left lung.

Ray Grant: "Is this a comedy bit? Is it supposed to be satire? With the exception of a single “moderately superficial” slash to her rib, the killer did next-to-no damage to her frontal torso".

Autopsy re

Fracky McGustov

2/20/2020 12:00:02 am

I, Fracky McGustov, hereby declare to this reading audience that I require help. I truly do! I don't know why I act the way that I do. I think I suffer from very little self-esteem, and self-worthlessness. I understand there are professional people out there that can and who are prepared to help me. I'm crying out for help. But this thing in me won't let me get help. Please someone, before it's too late!

Richard

2/13/2020 09:42:16 am

Ray Grant: "Is this a comedy bit? Is it supposed to be satire? With the exception of a single “moderately superficial” slash to her rib, the killer did next-to-no damage to her frontal torso".

Autopsy report, left lung: Two moderately superficial lacerations are in the anterior and medial of its upper lobe. The lungs are below the ribs last time I checked an anatomy book.

Ray Grant: "But Richard Grinell continues his habit of treating every detail of every account as if it HAS to have some basis in truth. Grinell continues to insist, for example, that Robert Connolly arrived on Lake Herman Road at 9pm the night of the Faraday/Jensen murders, even though all the other eyewitness accounts, including aspects of his own account, are in direct conflict with that detail".

Once Ray told me not to rely on a magazine article stating that at least four eyewitnesses saw Faraday and Jensen at Hogan High on December 20th, stating I should rely on police reports and FBI documents, but he relies on accounts by Graysmith, who manages to get the Volkswagen Bug 150 yards in the wrong position, relies on Sharon Henslin forom posts over three decades after the event to worm Faraday and Jensen into the Blue Rock Springs parking lot to be abducted, despite Henslin never giving this pertinent information to police in 1968. Then he conveniently ignores two statements by Robert Connelly, who four days apart, insists he arrived at 9 pm. The statement he made doesn't conflict with the 10 pm Wesner statement at all - they are two different versions because they are at different times. He has a habit of cherry picking eyewitness credibility to fit around his theory - and completely ignores the west bank sighting of Connelly.

Ray Grant: "In other words, the killer never plunged his knife into her, so the blade of the knife couldn’t have broken when he plunged his knife into her. No section of the blade was found inside her body or anywhere in the alley."

Again using the straw man argument. Nowhere have I said the knife blade broke. I actually clearly stated the "hinge mechanism".

Ray Grant: "But if he HAD plunged his knife into her, wouldn’t he have caused more damage to the rib than he did? Wouldn’t he have broken the rib? And wouldn’t there be more deep thrusts into the torso, in particular to the abdomen?"

Don't forget the lacerations on the lungs.

Ray Grant: "And, to complete the ludicrous picture Richard paints, she makes no attempt to run. She was upright the entire time, and she just stood there".

Straw man number, I've lost count. Apart from the initial strikes to the chest, I didn't claim she wasn't thereafter restrained.

Ray Grant: "Nope. Anyone being tackled by a frontal attacker in a pitch dark alley would have bruises on the back and to the back of the head, gravel in the hair, abrasions to the palms of the hands, and so forth".

What's with the full frontal attacker again.

Ray Grant: "Now he has her fainting when a frontal attacker who can barely break the skin surprises her in the alley she would never have gone down. SHE ACTED JUST LIKE A GIRL, in other words. And then an attacker who can barely inflict any damage to other parts of her body expertly transects her throat at least seven times, severing both carotid arteries and both jugular veins.Sure, pal. Whatever you say".

Rinse and repeat. Quote above article: There was no major damage to any of the major organs in the torso of Cheri Jo Bates, despite the fact a 3 1/2 inch knife blade certainly has the capability to achieve such a feat. Other than the two superficial 'lacerations' on the left lung, the attack on Cheri Jo Bates doesn't appear like a killer who used brute force in a full frontal attack.

Richard

2/13/2020 09:43:16 am

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/richard-grinell-articles-cheri-bates-autopsy-t9003.html

Richard

2/13/2020 09:55:01 am

Ray Grant: "Essentially, all Grinell’s articles represent is an attempt to provide an alternative to the scenario presented in my book.
The problem is, there is no alternative that fits the evidence".

Mr Raymond Grant has implied an "attempt" in usual condescending manner and fully reinforced that there is no alternative but his own, despite the fact he cannot read a watch, or read my article correctly.

Richard

2/13/2020 10:38:45 am

LHR: The sightings of each other were considered one event by Ray - Gasser and Connelly arriving to go raccoon hunting, as Wesner was coming out of gate #10. Unfortunately the times are an hour apart. However, Bingo Wesner said two different things: Firstly; "when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the pick-up go by" and secondly; "when he was checking the sheep "he saw the same Impala and also saw the pick-up in the area",This is not the same thing.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR22.html
Connelly & Gasser: "When they arrived there at 9 pm, noticed a truck coming out of the gate (Wesner). This coincides with information given by Bingo Wesner, that when he came out of the gate he saw a red pick-up truck go by" (Connelly and Gasser).

In a later statement Wesner stated here http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR26.html , "Last night he was checking his sheep at approximately 10 pm. He also observed a red Ford pick-up in the area". This isn't the same statement as "when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by,"

In one he was checking his sheep, and in the other he was coming out of the gate. In one he saw the pick-up go by, in the other he saw the pick-up in the area.

Roger

2/13/2020 01:21:56 pm

Wow, Ray Grant seems to be good at putting words in your mouth. I doubt he even has the ability to read what is written. There is nothing mind-numbing about what you have written. It is all straightforward unless someone is thinking on a different tangent.

2/26/2020 06:22:24 pm

Kinkead conclusion: “The person who wrote the confession is aware of facts about the homicide that only the killer would know."

links
A to B

Pull and pulled
Twitch and twitched
Squirm and squirmed
will not stop the game
misspelling victim.
And the language is the same.
And the victim type is the same.
MO the same, as the victim's car is nearby.
refers to next time in - MY NEXT VICTON
These points and many others have been brought
up over the years - all saying that through all the odd
discrepancies - the main reason why Paul Avery
thought that this was the Zodiac was that he said to publish
for all to read. If there were twin attention seeking whores like this
one was. Then what happened to the other? Nature abhors bla bla bla.

links
B to C

And if A=B and B=C then it must be that A=C.

In lieu of the oddities. We might chalk them up to the notion
that the murder of CJB was before the identity of the Zodiac
was realized by even him. Back then he was Sandy the
laughing boy. He was inexperienced as it was probably one of his
his early by knife. Since the knife broke and costing him time. It revealed the nature of the poor planning that went into this masterminds grasp towards super-villain infamy. He cut himself as a result, and drops of his blood fell down on CJB's pants. Then lead away from the crime scene. The DNA is known and Ken Mains said the name is known but that he must remain silent - apparently because they want to dot every "i". But, I find it all very frustrating.
And, I would like further explanation. And, further confirmation.

Roger

2/26/2020 09:38:50 pm

BB, I agree there are similarities, but serial killers sometimes follow the papers and take a keen interest in other murders. Some have even added these victims to their own tally in communications. So it is plausible that the Zodiac had read about the Cheri Jo Bates case in Riverside and saw the letter in the papers, and this letter influenced his own letter writing a few years later. We know that the Zodiac tended to copy ideas from comic book media and movies. He was very eclectic in the way he "collected" ideas.

I believe Ken Mains thinks Ross Sullivan killed both CJB and was the Zodiac. I have problems with Ross being the Zodiac, but he could have been responsible for the CJB murder, considering the DNA was not a match for "Bob Barnett". Still, there is an enormous amount of circumstantial evidence linking Barnett to the case and I have not heard if Ross Sullivan was present at the re-enactment of the night of CJB's murder. I doubt if he could have been the bearded man, who I presume was an older man, unless Ross had been wearing a very good disguise. It also seems unlikely that Ross would have been accompanied by a woman. Ross tended to hang out in the library during the day time. Still he cannot be ruled out as a suspect. In many countries, Bob Barnett would have been tried for the crime and the DNA excluded on the grounds it was most likely contaminated. If the evidence Tom Voigt gave us from his meetings with Bud Kelley can be believed, I think the evidence seems pretty overwhelming. Another male could have been present that night, and we know from the testimony provided by Voigt that Barnett had gotten two of his close friends involved in the search for a knife and possibly helped him to cover up the crime. He is still the most likely suspect in my honest opinion. Ross is just a "maybe" for me on the grounds that he sometimes hung around the library and had mental issues.

I am sure you will agree, it will be great if some kind of resolution can be made with regards to the DNA, rather than it adding to the confusion. I am not sure if Joseph Bates is still alive (he must be getting elderly), but their family really needs closure on this, if only for the sake of Cheri's surviving brother Michael.

2/27/2020 11:13:58 am

Sullivan was too big for the smaller sized 7 wrist watch.

Granville Douglas “Bud” Kelley Jr., 74, had pleaded guilty to (to paraphrase the legalese - molesting little girls) ... The girl's father called Kelley a “master of deceit”

In other words we must throw-out everything Bud did on the CJB case since he lived across the street from Ramona High. And could have been her stalker. He is the one that always insisted that the Zodiac was not involved. We can't trust a lying child molester?

Roger

2/27/2020 01:25:50 pm

Yes you are correct about the watch size. We can't rule out all of Bud Kelley's work on the case. That would be like throwing out all of Toschi's work because he sent himself a few fan letters. Despite being a child molester, and, from what others tell us, not well liked on the force, Kelley may have been a diligent detective - just as Arthur Allen Leigh may have been a diligent school teacher despite being a pedophile.

Roger

2/27/2020 01:28:59 pm

Also, all it would take is a simple mitochondrial DNA swab to rule him in or out. I am not sure what evidence was presented in the child molestation case? I would suspect a DNA test would have come into that case.

2/27/2020 05:21:41 pm

Granville Douglas “Bud” Kelley Jr.

https://www.policeprostitutionandpolitics.com/pdfs_all/COPS_DAS_JUDGES_PEDOPHILES_CHILD_PORN/2011%20Granville%20Douglas%20"Bud"%20Kelley%20Jr%20%7C%20Police%20Detective%20retired%20Riverside%20CA/granville_Kelley.jpg

The reason I don't believe anything this creep says is - he could be CJB's killer.
And just covering for himself by steering her investigation away from himself.

https://www.policeprostitutionandpolitics.com

Roger

2/27/2020 06:30:08 pm

The other detectives who worked on the case and the current one know all about Bud Kelley, but for some reason are not considering him a suspect, at least as far as I am aware. Somehow I doubt they could all be complicit in a "cover up" to protect Kelley, because the case was in the hands of other detectives long before Kelley inherited it, and it seems he was just following the chain of evidence that was already on file. There were evidently a lot of witness testimonies that we the public know nothing about, as well as things from Cheri Jo's personal diary. We the public are only told what the police want us to know at any given time. I get the feeling Riverside let out too much information and later detectives regretted this, as leaked information can ultimately become prejudicial in a court of law. For example if stories and rumours are circulating about the internet and in the press about a suspect prior to a trial, this can jeopardize the legal requirement of a fair trial by jury. And this may be particularly true when the DNA evidence is contaminated or in doubt. I am guessing that if the witnesses that Kelley had interviewed are still alive, they would probably be willing to go through their statements again and sign off on them, if Kelley's credibility is now in doubt. We need to remember that suspicion against Bob Barnett was from the very beginning and evidently continues until this day, with some consideration being given to Zodiac during the Toschi era, as well as Ross Sullivan and a couple of former friends of Barnett's from his high school days. In the vast majority of murders of this kind, the killer was someone known to the victim who had a clear motive, means, and opportunity; and if this is backed up by strong witness testimony, that all tends towards a suspicion of guilt.

2/28/2020 10:25:03 am

You always make a lot of good points.
But, they have their own reputations to
worry about too;

one bad apple
spoil the whole
damn bunch

As far as we are concerned;
The way it is now - there are two separate investigations here.
Because half are thinking Zodiac - and the other half thinking
Nodiac (no Zodiac). We have two investigations. That is OK.
The DNA will win-out. We don't need a consensus. The two
separate investigations have been proceeding with every one agreeing to disagree. If we all had to agree on everything - we
would get no-where. There is good evidence for - and there is good
evidence against. We can't completely throw away the other
sides valid points to force the narrative one way. Each side can, and has coexisted for a long time. But, you can rub-it-in the other side's face when the DNA facts are finally revealed in your favor - by saying - ha ha ha I told you so you stupid bunch of mislead idiots. Peace

Roger

2/28/2020 03:42:55 pm

Yes BB, and the other way it could go is the DNA may reveal an identity nobody has ever heard of or considered.

3/3/2020 12:41:53 pm

Cherri Jo Bates Zodiac Killer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqZnWwimzkc

There is more to say Zodiac than Nodiac

THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS-PART TWO

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