THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS-PART THREE

2/11/2020

In the following analysis we shall look at the murder of Cheri Jo Bates on October 30th 1966 from the standpoint of science and the most accurate measurements we have to pinpoint the time of her murder. This will hopefully clarify some of the events surrounding her untimely demise. If we use the body temperature measurements taken by Surgeon F. Rene Modglin at 9:23 am on October 31st 1966, it concluded she had been dead between 9 and 12 hours. This would place the time of her death at between 9.23 pm and 12:23 am. This encompasses the time earwithnesses heard screams from the alleyway at around 10:30 pm. However, the stomach contents paint an altogether different picture.

Cheri Jo Bates attended church on the morning of October 30th 1966, before heading off with her father for breakfast at 5201 Arlington Avenue. When they arrived home just shy of 10:00 am, Joseph Bates prepared for his day out at the beach leaving Cheri Jo Bates alone in the 4195 Via San Jose residence for approximately seven hours. We know Cheri Jo Bates was in her house because she called her friend Stephanie Guttman at 3:45 pm, and we know she left her residence about 5:00 pm because her father arrived back at the residence shortly after 5:00 pm and saw that his daughter had pinned a note to the refrigerator door stating "Dad - Went to RCC library". He discovered plates and dishes in the drainer of the kitchen, and realized she had prepared herself a meal, including roast beef. Cheri Jo Bates could conceivably have eaten this meal at anytime between when she arrived home from breakfast to just before she left for the library. However, it is fair to assume the latest she ate the meal was between 4:30 pm and 4:45 pm, thereby allowing her time to wash the dishes and prepare herself for the fifteen minute journey to the library. Whether she went directly to the library is unknown, but she left her 4195 Via San Jose residence at about 5:00 pm. This is crucial when we consider the time of death estimate given by F. Rene Modglin regarding the stomach contents at autopsy.

There are no lesions of the peritoneum, omastum or mesentery. There are no lesions of the oesophagus. The stomach contains at least 100 millilitres of thick food with particulate food particles in which are easily recognized reasonably large pieces of apparently beef along with vegetable particles being either and/or celery and onion and white curd like particles floating in the gastric contents that appear to be either milk or cottage cheese. There is no lesion of the stomach, duodenum, remaining small bowel or large bowel including the rectum. The 120 gram pancreas is in its usual position and has no lesion of its surface or interior.

One milliliter is one cubic centimeter - so imagine 100 sugar cubes that are one centimeter on each side when considering the volume of the stomach contents. F. Rene Modglin, based on these contents and reasonably large pieces of beef in the stomach, concluded that Cheri Jo Bates "had eaten a supper type meal no more than 2-4 hours before her death". Houston, we have a problem.

The latest possible time Cheri Jo Bates could have consumed this meal was 4:45 pm, placing her death at the earliest at 6:45 pm, and at the latest 8:45 pm, meaning she couldn't have been in the library that evening between these hours. Bearing in mind that, other than the Mexican-American student who noticed her about the time the library doors opened at 6:00 pm, none of her friends set eyes on her in the cramped library that evening. If the stomach content analysis by F. Rene Modglin is correct, this backs up the notion of the young woman discharging her three library books and leaving almost immediately - and hence why nobody in the library remembers seeing her. However, we have another massive problem. The stomach contents analysis places her time of death between 6:45 pm and 8:45 pm, but the body temperature analysis places her time of death between 9:23 pm and 12:23 am. If Cheri Jo Bates had ate her supper type meal any earlier than 4:45 pm the discrepancy only increases. F. Rene Modglin stated that Cheri Jo Bates "had eaten a supper type meal no more than 2-4 hours before her death", making the latest estimate of 8:45 pm completely at odds with the scream heard by two earwithnesses at about 10:30 pm. The body temperatures analysis fits with this scenario, but the stomach contents analysis falls well short. This discrepancy has to be reconciled.

Digestion is an active ante mortem process, which does not continue after death. Although acids and enzymes are present, the peristaltic movements necessary to churn food with them are absent. The presence of food particles in the stomach and upper small intestine provides still another source of information to the doctor regarding time since death. When and what the deceased ate for his last meal is important information for the doctor who will conduct the autopsy. Various ingested food materials remain within the stomach for variable periods of time, depending on the nature and size of the meal. It has been determined through extensive research that under ordinary circumstances the stomach empties its contents 4 to 6 hours after a meal. According to Modi, the gastric empting varies in human being from 2 1/2 to 6 hours. In certain cases the medical examiner will be able to determine the type of food, which still remains in the stomach, if matched with the last known meal. This can help establish a time period. A number of contributing factors including type of food item, particles size, volume of food, types of food consumed, temperature and individual metabolism may have direct effect upon the digestion and empting of ingested food in stomach. Link.

We effectively have a shortfall of 1 hour and 45 minutes from the latest time of death based on stomach contents, to the screams heard in the alleyway. This gap must be bridged, in order to bring the stomach content analysis into line with the body temperatures analysis. Ray Grant, an avid Zodiac researcher, has suggested an abduction theory - and while I don't necessarily believe this is the only viable answer - it does bridge the gap between 8:45 pm and 10:30 pm. Ray Grant has often suggested that Cheri Jo Bates digestion process could have markedly slowed down or even stopped, during a period of severe terror or stress - he claims - as a result of being abducted. While not everybody may concur with his conclusion of abduction, if the stomach contents of Cheri Jo Bates placed her death no later than 8:45 pm, when it's reasonable to conclude the time was nearer to 10:30 pm, then something must have slowed or greatly reduced her digestive function.

When a person feels danger, the “fight or flight” response of the central nervous system is triggered. At the same time, the enteric nervous system’s response is to slow down or stop digestion. This is done so that more of the body’s energy can be diverted to the situation causing the threat. The enteric nervous system’s network of nerves, neurons, and neurotransmitters extends along the entire digestive tract – from the esophagus, through the stomach and intestines, and down to the anus. Emotions, feelings of excitement, or nervousness can cause the familiar churning in the stomach – the so-called “butterflies in your stomach” feeling. The gut-brain connection works in both directions too. For example, GI problems can create anxiety and stress. Link.

This suggests that if Cheri Jo Bates was placed under enough stress between the period of around 6:00 pm and 10:30 pm, her digestive process could have slowed and therefore skewed the findings of F. Rene Modglin. It could also have literally shut down for 1 hour and 45 minutes. Either way, the discrepancy between 8:45 pm and 10:30 pm, appears to suggest something very traumatic occurred to Cheri Jo Bates during the 4 1/2 hour window between library doors opening and the time of her death. Whatever that was, we can only speculate.

THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS PART ONE PART TWO

Roger

2/11/2020 02:12:07 pm

I once would have agreed with the Ray Grant theory, but now I find it unlikely. I know from my own experiences in life just how easy it is to be a member of a large crowd and not be seen by anyone apart from one or two people who I've literally had to approach and almost bump into face to face before they have recognized me.

Churches are places where people often tend to look around to see who else is in attendance. But when it comes to libraries, people tend to be pre-occupied with their own reasons for going there. People tend to be focused on research, newspapers, journals, and books, and the few people who were socializing were probably so wrapped up in quiet conversation they were not taking much notice of anyone around them. If you want to have a conversation in a library you virtually have to sit in a tight circle and whisper to each other. In libraries people tend to mind their own business and are often lost in thought. Cheri Jo had lost the bibliography to her assignment and was desperate to re-compile all of the books she had used. This would not only have been time-consuming (again, I know this from experience as a one-time university student - because the same thing once happened to me). It would also mean she probably had her head buried in books the whole time. She would not have entered the library with her head held high, wanting to be noticed by the entire world in order to be the "life of the party". That is not the reason why people attend libraries. Perhaps she had just sat on the floor at the back of a row of shelves, deeply engaged in her own studies, a large book concealing her face. And as for the times of those screams, well I have already stated what I think was a more likely scenario on another of Richard's articles. I have also checked out books from libraries in the old days when they were busy and I can guarantee the librarian did not lift her head once to look at me. She just grabbed the stamp and checked my books, and I hurried away.

Some of those times provided by witnesses were clearly wrong, and in fact, I would dismiss any evidence relating to anomalies in time that were put forward by Graysmith. Dismiss all of the "additional" evidence that appears in Graysmith's account, and you quickly gain a much clearer perspective of the times. It is a pity that Riverside PD have only ever released bits and pieces of information pertaining to the case, and we have few actual police reports to go by. Much of the information comes to us second or third hand. That has allowed for too much corruption and manipulation of the facts over time. For instance I have read on some forums that prior to going to the library, Cheri Jo was at home drafting a "break up letter" to her ex-boyfriend. I have no idea how this story came about, but I personally would take it with a grain of salt, unless there is conclusive evidence to confirm this story. A certain prominent forum owner has also told us stories of witnesses who claimed to have seen her ex-boyfriend assaulting Cheri Jo at school and overheard him making threatening remarks and mentioning that he had received a phone call telling him Cheri Jo was going to the library etc. etc. Are any of these stories true? Can any of them be verified by actual police records?

Richard

2/11/2020 02:38:34 pm

If we discount all of Robert Graysmith's accounts, dismiss her friends in the library as mistaken or not noticing her, dismiss the screams heard by the earwithnesses (as they could have been somebody else), and just take the renowned and highly qualified F. Rene Modglin as the benchmark, then Cheri Jo Bates would have died inside the library that evening. If she ate her beef meal earlier (let's say 3:00 pm), then she could feasibly have died before reaching the library or on the library steps. According to his estimates of her eating a "supper type meal no more than 2-4 hours before her death", she either died at home, in her Volkswagen Beetle on her way to the library, on the library steps or in the library itself. Even if she ate her meal in 10 seconds flat and jumped in her vehicle instantly, according to Modglin she would have died no later than 9:00 pm. Any meal eaten earlier than 5:00 pm, places her dead in the library before it closed at 9:00 pm. Even if she left the library at 8:00 pm, she could supposedly live no longer than 8:45 pm. This would certainly render the screams heard by two earwithnesses as irrelevant to her murder. I certainly am not advocating for an abduction, just an unknown period of time when her stress levels could have spiked prior to her murder.

Richard

2/11/2020 02:46:59 pm

In summary, according to the 2-4 hour estimate, Cheri Jo Bates could not have stayed in the library until closing time. If she ate the beef meal at home between 2:00 pm and 5:00 pm (then according to the upper end estimate of 4 hours) she died in the library if she remained there from 6 to 9. The lower end estimate has her dying at 4 or 7 pm.

Roger

2/11/2020 04:34:00 pm

I am unsure what you are suggesting here. Meals and gastric juices! For crying out loud. You are putting too much faith in the autopsy findings on gastric stomach contents, something that could be out by up to 4 hours.

You seem to be missing my point entirely. I only suggested that we discount Graysmith's evidence about hearing screams and old cars starting up at certain late hours. We may also note that Graysmith also changes the make and model of the suspicious automobile. If it differs from the police reports, why swallow his word on it hook, line and sinker? Even you must admit that Graysmith was wrong about a great many things. I no longer trust a single word Graysmith wrote and would prefer to look only at police evidence. And as I have already stated, we simply do not have enough information in the way of first-hand police reports from Riverside PD to draw any realistic conclusions. Making pronouncements about time of death based solely on an analysis of digestion is not likely to achieve a definitive time of death. You must be kidding if you believe it can. Obviously her death occurred after the library closed. I don't know about anyone else, but usually if you visit a library at night and they close the door and turn off the lights, most people go home. I doubt if people were still loitering about there at 9:30, saying hello to strangers smoking down a dark alleyway, and screams and old cars revving up at 10:30. That all just sounds ludicrous to me.

Richard

2/11/2020 05:02:41 pm

I routinely dismiss much of Graysmith's evidence, but sometimes like to test it out to see if it's viable. We don't have any police reports for some inexplicable reason after 53 years, but I do believe autopsy reports are useful indicators for time of death, used in many murders to consolidate or disprove alibis. I didn't pronounce time of death solely on digestion, which is why I used body temperature in conjunction to attempt to understand the missing 4.5 hours. Without police reports, we are left with just newspaper and magazine articles, so in effect we have nothing but the autopsy report. Newspapers are equally unreliable sources, often with conflicting versions. If we cannot draw any realistic conclusions on Riverside, I suggest we can draw a line in the sand and never talk about it again.

Roger

2/11/2020 06:41:17 pm

I am the first to admit this case presents many problems for amateur sleuths. But just for the record, and for what it may be worth, I place her time of death as somewhere around about 9:20-9:45, which I guess is similar to the time you are proposing. But due to what we cannot know for certain to be true, this time could feasibly end up being extended to 10:30 which would match with the screams heard by Graysmith's witnesses, or even as late as 12:30. I have trouble believing her death occurred that late in the night. That would suggest she must have spent several hours talking to some guy who only at the last moment snapped and he ended up killing her. My feeling is her attacker came to meet Cheri Jo to confront her, but not wishing to create a public scene, he waited over in the shadows for her to appear. They may indeed have talked, even for as long as half an hour to an hour, before he lost control. The way her face and chest and neck were targeted most, the rest mainly defensive wounds on her arms, suggests to me that this was a crime of passion. He had initially tried to pin her down, perhaps had even intended raping her, but had most likely failed to get an erection. The embarrassing impotence he suffered would have frustrated and angered him even further. He tried to pin her down and at some point the weapon that was initially presented to cause her fear and submission, became an instrument of violence. His inability to get sexually aroused and rape her in his heightened state of frustration and rage led to the surrogate use of the knife. Sadly, we so often find this scenario repeated time and time again in similar murders throughout the world.

Roger

2/12/2020 05:17:03 am

Actually, now I am not sure if Graysmith was the originator of some of those claims about earwitnesses. Didn't that info come from the 1969 "Inside Detective" feature article? I cannot recall the name of the author.

Roger

2/12/2020 05:45:37 am

Found it again. John Montgomery was the author.

Don't mind me, just having a little discussion with myself. :-)

2/11/2020 04:33:27 pm

Richard
Excellent reasoning.
Until this I was certain Riverside was Zodiac.
Now I'm once again lost in possibilities.
I am once again back to square one.
But, that's OK. The best place to start in any
endeavor is to begin with an open mind.
There is a new book "What If?" by Anne Penn
She points out a great deal of good reasoning
for GSK to be the Zodiac. She starts - the DNA to
link to Bates is inconclusive. She then follows the time
line of their movements and she finds they match up.
So it could be him. She makes a good case but says
the courts are not going down this road for fear of losing
the case they have on him for the rapes. If they were to
link GSK to Zodiac - they could lose the whole case.
That could give the defense an out. They would be able to
argue if you can't prove he did any one of the Zodiac murders
then how can you say the DNA is valid for GSK Rapes.
Which would possibly baffle the jury. They won't take that
chance. Although, I'm only half way through so I'm speaking
out of my blow hole. I just wanted to let you know the short.
There will probably be corrections to what I am currently aware.
You and others here have mentioned several commonalities.
So this possible connection is a worthy avenue for exploration.

Roger

2/11/2020 04:55:51 pm

Don't forget, John Getreu was recognized by Sharon Lucchese as the man who abducted, threatened and tried to strangle her in the Hollywood Hills in the late 60s-early 70s. That may suggest Getreu had an association with that greater LA region, even though Riverside is quite a long distance east of there. Of course Getreu may have still been serving time in Germany for a rape and murder he committed there in 1963. For some reason nobody has been able to find out when Getreu was released. Some reports claim he could have been released on probation and returned to the US after serving just 2 years in jail. Other reports say 3-4 years. This seems unbelievable, but then again, the fact that he was out in the late 60s also seems unbelievable, but evidently true. Getreu lived in Midtown, Palo Alto, from 1971-75. As a scout leader he raped a girl in Palo Alto in 1975 and had strangled Leslie Perlov, a Stanford University graduate, in 1973. His MO was strangulation, which tends to rule him out as a suspect in the murder of CJB, plus the fact he was probably still serving time in Germany. I still contend that CJB was murdered by someone who was known to her.

2/12/2020 12:21:58 pm

John Getreu is the creepiest looking guy.

Richard

2/11/2020 05:09:29 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-UhPiIFqg&t=836s

Richard

2/11/2020 05:11:06 pm

ZODIAC SOLVED - ANNE PENN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-UhPiIFqg&t=836s

Roger

2/11/2020 06:20:45 pm

Although it would make perfect sense to me that Zodiac was a cop, the thing about the Zodiac is that he was so variable and eclectic, you could make him "fit" just about anybody. Some things about GSK seem right, other things don't quite add up. For a cop he sure must have had a lot of spare time on his hands if he was also moonlighting as the Zodiac, while burglarizing homes, killing dogs, peeping, prowling, raping. It's a wonder he was ever at work!

I have had reporters tell me that it would be impossible for a serial killer to be a member of the press because they just would never have any spare time on their hands. I have heard cops say exactly the same thing. Somehow these serial killers made the time. But it does seem a stretch for me to believe GSK was Zodiac There are only so many hours in a day, and I am sure that rule would apply as much for serial killers as it does for everybody.

Richard

2/12/2020 04:57:30 am

Here is DREW BEESON suggesting Don Cheney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fq9T5hV88s

Roger

2/12/2020 05:11:47 am

Case in point!

2/25/2020 09:13:29 am

Richard - Drew has found something compelling

Sighting In on The Zodiac Killer - New Update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY7u8IgLrVQ

Donald L Cheney did mechanical work in the AirForce

Inland Empire

2/25/2020 12:18:31 pm

Drew Beeson says Don died Nov. 14, 2009, at the age of 74, and was born April 25th, 1935 (Taurus the bull sign could be a circled 8).
Donald Lee Cheney was 34yo. in 1969. Did ALA come to visit him near
Riverside Oct. 30, 1966? Cheney's daughter should be asked for DNA.
Kudos to Beeson

Roger

2/12/2020 05:39:19 am

Another discrepancy Richard. The author of The Confession letter states "She squirmed and shook as I chocked her, and her lips twiched". This implies strangulation, and is a story that is sometimes repeated. But the autopsy does not seem to mention anything about her being physically choked. If that had happened there would have been telltale signs.

Robyne

2/12/2020 12:09:56 pm

There's always the possibility that even if a genetic profile for the murderer will be achieved, he'd died in Vietnam and isn't available for clustering/matching.

Roger

2/12/2020 02:48:10 pm

That would tend to suggest he had no parents, no siblings, no family, not even an extended one. More likely if they cannot match him with modern forensics it will be because nobody in that closer family line has entered any DNA into GedMatch. We can only hope they did not blow all of their good DNA material on that earlier mitochondrial DNA test which ruled out their prime suspect. The problem with DNA tests in those early years was that due to contamination or some factor that went wrong in the laboratory testing, they had come up with a false reading. This could occur for instance if Cheri Jo's own DNA had gotten mixed in with the sample, or if she had the DNA residues of another male individual under her fingernails. This could happen quite easily in fact, just by scraping up against another persons skin, such as could have occurred in the close confines of the library or when checking out books. I recall a personal experience of being literally gouged in my arm by a shop assistant in a store when she, without looking, had reached over to take my money. Girls at that age often have longer fingernails than males and activities like sports and trimming can make them very sharp. Complete accidents like these can and do happen. The great thing with modern forensics is they can often separate and isolate those different genetic materials. The most external DNA material would have been the most reliable, as it most likely belonged to her killer. Any deeper residual material would possibly be less reliable.

2/12/2020 02:34:56 pm

The Zodiac or the CJB killer? I'm not sure if they're the same guy any more.
In fact they could be almost any white males. Perhaps even a duo. Many serial
killers work in pairs. In fact, Leonard Lake worked with another man and woman.
Thou the woman got a sweet deal for testifying against the other guy Ng.
Lake had an extensive military background.
Evidently he took cyanide in the police station
when first caught. He was MK-ultra on the Miranda project.
To get cyanide - you have to have 'cerious' connections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Lake

Born Leonard Thomas Lake
October 29, 1945 - (1966 CJB was the day after LL's 29th B-day)
San Francisco, California, U.S.
Died June 6, 1985 (Dahli-Day)
South San Francisco, California, U.S.

Roger

2/12/2020 03:27:18 pm

Wow you are always quick with the conspiracy theories BB. LOL! Charles Ng revealed himself to be a bad egg soon after his arrival from Hong Kong. He was always up to no good. So the most likely source of the cyanide pill was an underworld purchase Ng had made in Hong Kong, and Ng had transported those pills in the same way as Lake. He probably walked through customs with them sown inside his clothes or hidden inside his luggage. Asia, particularly Thailand, is still a major illicit source of cyanide to this day, as evidenced by the 2015 case of a girl buying it from a supplier on Amazon! So in reality, due to the poor border Customs in those days, Ng and Lake could have easily "mail ordered" them from somewhere in Asia. No need for big MK-Ultra conspiracy theories, just reply on the reliable US postal service of the day! "Miranda Project" was Lake's personal insane project. He had called it "Operation Miranda" as a reference to the novel The Collector by John Fowles, in which the protagonist abducts a woman named Miranda and holds her captive in his basement. He had no help from anyone else except Ng. The pills can be easily explained. Plus I am sure those kinds of career criminals could have sourced just about anything they desired from underworld suppliers within the USA itself. And of course Mexico was just over the border. As for so-called Dali Days, I'll leave that one to the Surrealists. Dali Days will be of no help or use whatsoever in capturing the CJB killer or the Zodiac.

9/1/2020 02:27:53 pm

Sorry oops! Was he - not - He was MK-ultra.

2/12/2020 04:31:44 pm

You're probably right. But, I doubt you would turn down a compare of his DNA. It is speculation - never said it wasn't. It is not what I believe - that is what would make it conspiracy - only find it an interesting possibility - not probability. We must consider everything. Don't close your mind to even the most remote of ideas. I don't avoid areas because I fear they won't confirm my beliefs. I'm always perusing places I find off the wall. And even against my ideology. If you only go where you already found likable then you just get further comfort where you're at. And you wind up getting nowhere. If that makes any sense. Maybe I'm crazy. Oh well.
Since we learn from our mistakes too. Another thing they say - When you fall - be sure to pick something up. Peace

2/12/2020 05:17:17 pm

In the confession letter he said "walks down the dark alley each evening about seven". I wonder if you can read anything into the questioned timeline with this time of seven?

Roger

2/12/2020 07:22:44 pm

I believe sunset was at 4:58 p.m. on October 30. So yes it is plausible that if the killer did write the letter, "evening about 7" could suggest he was subconsciously recalling his own movements down a dark alley near the library at that time. The babysit thing is one of the more curious additions. Why did the writer add that bit in? I have never heard any evidence to suggest that Cheri Jo was a babysitter. Did the author of the letter add that in for literal effect, or could it be saying something about the author? Perhaps the author was simply rehashing popular myths and legends such as the "Babysitter and the man Upstairs"? Or could this simply indicate a female writer who was perceiving things from her own perspective? Or could this indicate a male author taunting the public with threats about wives and daughters "not being at home where they belong". If so then this is perhaps the one misogynistic thing in the whole letter that could point to a male letter writer. Of course such misogynistic stereotypes were still alive and well in 60s America, so perhaps I am reading too much into it.

Incidentally, the real case on which that "man upstairs" legend took flight was the murder of Janett Christman in the town of Columbia, Missouri in March, 1950. Robert Mueller, a 27 year old friend of the Romacks, had been an admirer of Janett Christman. Mr Romack claimed that Mueller had made lewd comments about Janett at times prior to her murder, and Mrs Romack would claim that Mueller ran his hands over her dress inappropriately two days before the murder. She had always felt uneasy in his presence and did not trust him. Mueller had known she would be baby-sitting in the Romack home that night because he had asked her to babysit at his own home. Mueller was also known to carry around a mechanical pencil that matched puncture wounds that police found on Janett’s body. Mrs Romack also claimed that Mueller had told her shortly after the murder "I might have done it and then forgotten it."

Soon afterward, Mueller left Missouri for California. He later attempted to sue Sheriff Powell and two deputies for violating his civil rights during his questioning, but he lost the case. He joined the Air Force at some point after moving to San Jose. He died in 2006 at the age of 83.

Glen Powell’s nephew, Wayne Powell, who was 15 at the time of the murder, said his uncle remained convinced of Mueller’s guilt the rest of his life. He believed Mueller had used family connections to obscure evidence and beat the charge. And due mainly to police bungling the case, Mueller essentially got away with the crime. Once he left the state he was basically untouchable. I personally believe that he was guilty.

Mueller fled to San Jose, California, where apparently nothing bad was ever heard about the man again. He served in the Air Force and went to the Korean War. He served with the "Jolly Rogers" - the 90th Bomb Group. He worked his way up to the rank of Major. He was married to Marguerite Carr Mueller (1920–2004). He lived the remainder of his life in Santa Clara County.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/40172532/robert-pember-mueller#view-photo=20099595

NOTE: March Air Force Base is just next door to Riverside. Where was Mueller in 1966? Do killers ever give up their ways just because they move to a different state?

The problem with old war era military records is they either no longer exist or are locked away in massive building of archives some place, never to see the light of day again. Only DNA can provide any evidence of this man's possible involvement in any rape and murder cases in California. As for the case of Janett Christman, I am not sure if any evidence would remain or still be viable enough for modern DNA testing. Nevertheless, this is something that Missouri police should be doing.

Roger

2/13/2020 02:26:00 pm

Much to my astonishment I have learnt that the killer left behind no traces at all (forensics in 1950 Missouri were probably very basic). Also, as unbelievable as this seems, ALL of the evidence and ALL of the paperwork pertaining to the case has "disappeared", presumably discarded at a later time when the court house was refurbished. It is as if the crime never happened. There was one other witness who named a different suspect to Mueller. The man was seen acting suspiciously, and it was towards his neighborhood that the scent dogs had tracked the killer. However the weather was very inclement at the time and this was possibly sufficient for the dogs to lose the scent. It is however interesting that if this local Missouri man had been responsible, why were there no other attacks on women reported after Mueller left for California? Up to that time there had been several reported assaults on women in the local area by an unknown offender. This demands a re-assessment of any unsolved assaults on women in San Jose and surrounds in the 1950s to 1980s which may fit the patterns of the Missouri killer's MO.

Roger

2/13/2020 06:32:11 pm

I should also draw particular attention to these entries from https://truecrimearticles.com/2018/03/30/the-unsolved-murder-of-janett-christman/

"A series of prowlers and peeping Toms would emerge in the following years, and in the late months of 1949, the activity increased with a string of sexual assaults.

"The first rape occurred several days before Halloween. A 16-year-old teenager was babysitting on East Sunset Lane, when an unidentified male wearing a white homemade mask with holes cut out for eyes, broke into the residence and violated the young woman in the living room.

"The following month on November 29, 1949, 18-year-old Stephens College student, Sally Johnson, became the next target. She lived one block away from where the prior victim was attacked and was home alone falling asleep on the sofa while watching television when an unknown male gained entry and attempted to violate her. Thankfully, she resisted her attacker and was left unharmed, as the perpetrator panicked and fled from the home.

"On the very next day, another more brazen incident occurred. A college student enrolled at the University of Missouri was on a date with her boyfriend. They were at Hinkson Creek — a lover’s lane — and in their vehicle when a man draped in a white hood and brandishing a firearm appeared and ordered them out of the car. They did as he instructed and he forced the couple several yards away. He proceeded to rob and bind the male, then ordered the female to walk. When they were a considerable distance away, he sexually assaulted the female and sprinted away from the crime scene."

I find these uncannily similar to the Zodiac! If this is the same guy, then by 1969 he had evidently perfected his craft.

I also find it ironic that the police at the time were tending to target any black youths they saw loitering about and there should be no surprise why they tried to run away. The whole idea of a black man draping himself in a white hood seems rather unlikely, given the strongly repugnant cultural stigma attached to that sort of costume. More likely the offender was a local white male who was trying to conceal his identity.

And remember, Bryan told us that the man who attacked him had a certain cadence to his accent.

It would seem the string of these crimes dissipated after Robert Mueller left for California! So it would also be interesting to know if a spate of similar crimes began to occur in San Jose and surrounds after Robert Mueller moved there. I have been unable to establish when exactly he moved there or when he joined the air force. We know he served in the Korean War.

The only circumstantial evidence that could tie Robert Mueller with the Zodiac case are the facts that he served in the Korean War in the "Jolly Roger" bombing group and it was a "Jolly Roger" greeting card that was sent to Paul Avery, which contained imagery and symbols reminiscent of the symbols and traditions of that bomber group.

Mueller could also vaguely resemble the police sketch of the suspect from Lake Berryessa. I am unaware of Robert Mueller's hair colour or his height and weight, but the part in his hair and general features are remarkably similar. However if he was 27 in 1950, that would make him 46 by 1969 (too old?), and the female witnesses at the lake thought the suspect looked about 28/30/40 years old. Bryan Hartnell thought that judging by the man's voice and movements his attacker was around 20-30 years old. A very fit ex WW2 combat soldier and air force man could possibly pass for someone younger than his years. The shoe prints left at the crime scene were air force issue Wing Walkers.

The girls claimed the man had "straight dark hair, neatly combed". Bryan recalled his attacker had combed, dark brownish hair, and he motioned that the hair appeared slicked back.

The girls claimed he was reasonably good looking, wore dark pants, dark pull over shirt, about 200-220 lbs, black sweater shirt, "bunched up" in front (as if he was concealing things under his jacket).

Bryan stated the man wore dark pants/shirt/jacket, around 225-250lbs and had a slightly pouched stomach. It seems likely they were all describing the same individual.

The Zodiac's girth would tend to rule out Mueller, unless he had put on a great deal of weight since 1950, or he was heavier than his 1940s-50s portrait suggests. He also did not have a "round face" as described by the girls, and yet the sketches show a man with a longish face! Nevertheless his hair looks dark and is combed (slicked back) the same way as the suspect in the sketches, with the part on the same side. Did Mueller have a small face, large girth by 1969 perhaps? He served in WW2 and enlisted in the Air Force in California and served in Korea. Could he have weighed 250 pounds?

A man weighing exactly 113 kg (or 250 pounds) would not look obese, especially if he had some height. He could just look very well built and maybe a bit "paunchy" around the waist and nec

Janet

4/16/2020 11:07:29 am

I had come to the SAME conclusion before seeing this. I googled the wife's name and DOB and DOC and came upon this page. I had recently called the director of a movie that described the murders in MO. I am almost positive this is the Zodiac Killer! Everything matches, dates, when he went to war, name, locations, MO....

Roger

4/16/2020 05:14:10 pm

Hi Janet, As the old saying goes, "Great minds think alike!" :-)
I contacted the relevant Missouri police department about this, as well as a person from a university who was, at the time, researching the Missouri cold cases, but as yet I have not received a single reply from either. I wonder if perhaps they too had already reached a similar conclusion, so my emails were like "old news" to them?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/13/2020 09:16:03 am

Ray Grant , presumably posting from the moon :

'' Essentially , all Grinell's articles represent is an attempt to provide an alternative to the scenario in my book . ''

Now....let me see ....Grant maintains that Cheri Jo was ambushed by four people , including Gareth Penn and Penn's mother .

Have I got that right ( ? ) , or do I have to suffer the torment of contemplating having to wade through the academic elitist 's overly self-publicised work of fantasy ?

Roger

2/13/2020 01:50:26 pm

I'm thinking Ray Grant should team up with that guy on YouTube (Zodiac Killer Insights), if he hasn't done so already. They both obviously believe that Gareth Penn was ubiquitous and an evil Moriarty style genius, whose mind only they have the ability to understand and interpret.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/13/2020 08:48:30 pm

Yes , '' Joe '' the ex- South African army guy , came back at me , for referring to him , as a '' complete Prat '' .

Fracky McGustov

2/20/2020 12:04:18 am

I, Fracky McGustov, hereby declare to this reading audience that I require help. I truly do! I don't know why I act the way that I do. I think I suffer from very little self-esteem, and self-worthlessness. I understand there are professional people out there that can and who are prepared to help me. I'm crying out for help. But this thing in me won't let me get help. Please someone, before it's too late!

2/13/2020 09:51:47 am

Rubislaw

Does Ray Grant promote the suspect Bruce Davis for Zodiac?

He should be looking for a connection to the Ray Davis murder.

If Bruce did kill Ray Davis - through the daisy chain he'd be the Zodiac.

Also, the family did have a collection of VW Bugs. Perhaps CJB's Bug
was an initial attraction for Bruce - as it were.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/13/2020 10:37:06 am

Thanks for your input , BB .

So I am led to believe , Ray Grant is of the opinion that the '' killing and extortion phenomenon '' that was '' The Zodiac '' was a 4-person academic consortium , that included Gareth Penn and his mother .

So , I presume that Ray Grant does not buy in to a '' Manson '' link to the Zodiac , for which Bruce Davis is a part .

I understand , BB , that you sometimes receive criticism for your '' berth '' of theories , but I take you to be someone '' entirely sane '' , forever willing to operate , as a sleuth , with '' flux '' .

I grow weary of '' those '' that effectively turn into '' nut jobs '' , because they are unwilling to let go of '' wholly ridiculous '' reasoning behind a suspect or suspects .

There will be differing opinions about the specifics of the fatal assault upon Cheri Jo , perhaps . But those differing opinions ought to be within narrow parameters , based on her autopsy report , with some realistic '' periphery '' considerations .

Individuals like Grant , underpin the generality of the phenomenon of the Zodiac and his outlier cases , by reasoning that ought to be flying out of the window , immediately .

Roger

2/13/2020 01:45:12 pm

Well said Rubislaw. Agree with everything you say here. As for Ray Grant, it seems to be an open and shut case of PSS = "Pet Suspect Syndrome". We have seen it raise its ugly head many times before. If the evidence doesn't quite fit for them, they force it. They hammer square pegs into round holes, and anyone who tries to correct them, even on the slightest of details, also gets a verbal hammering. Those who immediately resort to "ad hominem" attacks while preferring to cherry pick evidence are often one and the same personality types, and sadly all too commonly encountered in our modern online world. When it comes to the Zodiac case, YouTube is full of such individuals. I recently watched a "solve" to the 340 cipher which relied on so many arbitrary and wildly imaginative themes and methodologies that it had me in stitches. The fact that such people are often dead serious and are unwilling to listen to any alternatives to their bizarre reasoning can be as mind boggling as it is frustrating. I am convinced some of these people believe they have studied the case for so long they have begun to form some kind of telepathic link into the mind of the Zodiac. As soon as people suggest they "know" what the Zodiac was thinking, and therefore everyone who claims to have different ideas must be wrong, that is when I walk away. Their highly subjective and cherry picked studies has often led them down a rabbit hole into the kind of territory that should be more the domain of psychics and mystics.

Roger

2/13/2020 02:08:35 pm

The hilarious thing is that this is the first day in my entire life I have ever heard of Ray Grant, despite the fact that, after doing a bit of online digging, I quickly discovered that he is evidently very "famous". At one time he even declared himself to be the identity who coined the term "Zodiac killer", long after that term had actually been used! The "third person" narrative of "Enough About Me" is just bizarre. It reads as though he is such a world-renowned detective he must have a paid biographer following him about, who is chronicling all of his great work on the case through time.

"Suffice it to say: Ray Grant has been known to those covering and investigating the case far longer than almost anyone currently associated with it (including that shadowy figure skulking in the sweltering jungles of Central America)."

Talk about ardent self-promotion!

https://zodiackillerfacts.com/zodiac-theories/the-accused-the-accusers/gareth-penn-michael-ohare/the-crackpot-files-raymond-grant/how-raymond-grant-invented-the-zodiac-killer/

Rubislaw 32 link

2/13/2020 04:35:37 pm

I respected Ray Grant , for a long time , for being treated like a kicked dog , undeservedly by a few who either didn't have anything constructive to say for themselves , or actually profited at Ray's expense , by being paid for criticising his work .

But now that Ray has '' come out fighting '' , so to speak , his views are ones , largely concentrating on '' revenge '' and unfounded bitchiness against , in particular , those that have sold more copies of their books , than he has . i.e.

Tom Voigt - Infinity , Mark Hewitt - 0

Together with '' silly '' criticisms of such , with well respected contributions , as Richard , it is as if '' Rip Van Winkel '' has suddenly woken up , and demands to be noticed for things that had never really caught the eye , before .

Those '' things '' are much to do with , what really Ray stands for .

A third member of this 4-person '' fellow academic elite '' is , so I am to understand , Michael O'Hare whom , Gareth Penn famously hounded as , being the Zodiac himself .

So, by Ray Grant's reckoning , a well documented radio exchange , that took place between Penn and O'Hare where , O'Hare tore Penn's accusations of O'Hare apart , with O'Hare finally exposing Penn as plain wrong ....was just a '' rigged '' debate ( ? ) .

Ray Grant is too old to '' grow up '' , but he still ought to .

Roger

2/13/2020 07:40:00 pm

I think the problem for Grant is he had a habit of reading too much into things he really had little information about, then publishing it as being "totally authoritative" and "objective". Then he reacts badly when other people pick holes in his theories and prove him wrong. He first of all retaliates, then as the inevitable realization sinks in about the weight of contrary evidence, he skulks away and falls silent. Then at a later date he secretly deletes all the online content relating to that particular theory as if it is a painful and embarrassing memory that he wishes to erase from public existence. We see this happening time and time again with Zodiac suspects and theories. Having a suspect and a theory is okay, so long as we are willing to listen to alternative explanations that are based on the known evidence. The problem with writing a book about suspects and theories is we then have to be prepared to spend the rest of our lives trying to defend our original contentions.

Grant sure gets himself into a muddle over the Bates case. Admittedly it is a confusion and frustrating case, because of the very limited information that is actually available to us, some of which may even seem contradictory. But he almost appears determined to make the timeline even more confusing then it already is. He reads all sorts of things into the events in the timeline and at one point even seems to be implying "something was a bit off" with Cheri Jo's father Joseph, i.e. Grant claims they had argued over religion on the day before her death.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121010232530/http://www.zodiackillertimeline.com/Riverside_Revisited.html

Then after he bumbles out a load of confusing and convoluted diatribe, he resorts to attacking his proponents, rather than leading to any realistic conclusions. So he has to attack his proponents in a "pre-emptive strike". This is another thing we often see from those kinds of theorists.

However Grant did seem to reach two bizarre conclusions by the time he wrote his book: 1) Everybody else has been wrong about the case, including the FBI and the police, and 2) Penn was part of a larger team which included Michael O’Hare, O’Hare’s mother, and Penn’s father. I am sure one of the older members of this motley cult could aptly account for the mysterious "bearded man" in the library the night of Cheri Jo's murder?

Perhaps future writers will take Grant's theories one step further and claim Graysmith and Snook were there too, and while they are at it, tack in Donald and Bettye for good measure. Maybe Toschi also made a "guest appearance" at one of these crime scenes? Gee, some of those murder scenes must have been very crowded!

Rubislaw 32 link

2/13/2020 08:12:50 pm

I do wonder , with those that have actually undertaken and published work , whether now is the time that they become reflective , over whether their '' written output '' will '' survive '' an official Zodiac case resolution ( ? ) - or linger as a comical work of fiction , for having called the case , so inaccurately .

That's where I think that Graysmith is '' safe '' ,since his two books were written as diaries .

As for the rest of the '' pulp '' - might be re-categorised as '' Light Humour '' ( ? ) .

Richard

2/14/2020 02:21:47 pm

Cannot yet find anything pertinent to Zodiac in Codebreakers Rubislaw. My guess is his inspiration had nothing to do with this book. Haven't quite finished, but I'll let you know if anything amazing pops out of the pages.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/14/2020 02:54:02 pm

Thanks for having a look , Richard .

Not really expecting any '' great shakes '' really .

If the Zodiac was the man who withdrew the book , from the Civic Center Library , Fairfield , then he was done with the book , with only the '' 408 '' under his belt , as it were .

The Zodiac may have sought another , perhaps more rudimentary book , for actual assistance , if indeed he felt that he needed it , by then ( ? ) .

I say this , only that I had read up a little about the history of David Kahn's book which , was the cause of a few politically related lawsuits , before becoming freely available to the public . More specifically because , in its original form , contained some cryptographic secrets , shared by the CIA and MI5 , in their joint efforts of counter-intelligence against the Kremlin , in the course of The Cold War .

So , its possible that the Zodiac may have initially acquired use of the book , on the back of its '' espionage '' publicity , as something '' cool '' to be in possession of .....as opposed to being actually of real use to a probable '' novice '' , such as himself , the Zodiac .

Rubislaw 32 link

2/15/2020 10:21:51 pm

Hi BB .

I haven't been following Richard's Cheri Jo topics closely ,with Zodiac business , else where . ( a Police Chief hounded out of office ) .

But ,I had noted that you had made mention of being a local of Riverside .Can you tell us anymore about this , in relation to the Cheri Jo murder ?

I have read , in the past that Riverside P.D. had never before experienced a murder case , in this scale of '' high profile '' .

Was it perceived , at the time , for instance , that the '' local cops '' were not inclined to want the '' Feds '' moving in , on their '' backyard '',and showed an element of determined independence , in solving the murder , themselves ( ? ) .

Any extra insights , from you , would be interesting to hear .

2/16/2020 09:24:07 am

Rubislaw
That is a political thing.
I can't speak to that.
Sorry. I don't remember
anyone saying anything about CJB.
I don't live in Riverside exactly.
I live in the I.E. (megalopolis)
Lots of cities crammed together.
It is an amazing place.
Nonstop hustle and bustle.
When we here go to a country
type quiet place - we have to get back.
Urgently! Can't stand the quiet.
Got to keep in motion.
We live on the freeway.
The road rage however, is out of
control here. Road rage in California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDb3XIHxCNs&has_verified=1

Rubislaw 32 link

2/16/2020 01:20:28 pm

Thanks anyway . It must have been a bit quieter '' in the suburbs '' fifty years or more , ago ( ? ) .

To put it mildly ,and given the times of civil rights trouble , one has the distinct feeling that agencies , such as the FBI , weren't exactly '' flavour of the month '' to many folk ( ? ) .

More a case of '' Here comes trouble '' .

So, I suppose that is what I was really getting at ....a possible determination , by the Riverside P. D. , to keep '' those Feds '' away .

In retrospect , had the Riverside P.D. been more '' amenable '' to the extra expertise and resources that the FBI had to offer , the Cheri Jo Bates case may well have been solved .

But of course , we will never know now .

Rubislaw 32 link

2/16/2020 09:00:43 pm

Well , well ....there's a '' new '' claimed Zodiac letter just been featured at the main Zodiac Reddit site .

Posted by someone calling himself '' Evil1sixsixsix ''.

In the letter , a claimed Zodiac starts by referring to him being '' blown off '' with letters and ciphers , in the wake of the Manson murders .Presumably , by the FBI's counter intelligence unit which , let's be honest , as shown itself to be '' less than '' truthful , when examining certain ones , like the 1974 letters , and may have , for example , messed with the Vallejo Times Herald envelope , representing one third of the '' 408 '' cipher .

But , speculation aside , let's just see what a claimed Zodiac means :
August 4th 1969 - Debut Zodiac letter to the SF Chronicle .

August 9th - 10th 1969 - Tate La Bianca murders .

October 13th 1969 - The Stine letter to the SF Chronicle .

So...August 4th - October 13th = 70 Days without hearing from the Zodiac .

So...yes, 10 weeks is a jolly long time , when the Zodiac is , presumably , just '' getting into his stride '' ( ? ) .

And....yes , some of us internet sleuths are a little weary , with high hopes of something happening , in the wake of a GSK arrest .

Personally , this new letter , courtesy '' apparently '' of Instagram , does look '' pretty persuading ''. But at this '' late '' stage , who is to say ?

My guess is the the FBI are up to tricks , again , but '' again '' , could be a genuine letter .

Roger

2/16/2020 09:33:28 pm

My brain is throbbing.

I presume FBI is short for "Fictitious Babbling Internet"?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/16/2020 09:15:04 pm

As a reference note , the '' Smiley Face '' symbol , goes back to an insurance company graphic , from Worcester , Massachusetts , 1963 .

Roger

2/16/2020 10:03:09 pm

Perhaps a veiled reference to Keith Hunter Jesperson, born 1955, who used Smiley Faces on his letters to taunt the police and prosecutors? I remember seeing a letter from another serial killer bearing a smiley face too, but can't locate it again.

Roger

2/16/2020 10:16:42 pm

And evidently, despite that killer Keith Hunter Jesperson, being apprehended in 1995, the Smiley Face theme has been perpetuated by another person or persons. It would now appear a trickster is drawing a very long bow - attempting to link all of this (probably unrelated) criminal activity to the Zodiac.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/smiley-face-murder-serial-killer-drowning-death-882042/

Roger

2/16/2020 09:43:16 pm

A collection of "stuff" by user Evil1sixsixsix

https://www.reddit.com/user/Evil1sixsixsix/

Kind of all speaks for itself doesn't it?

Roger

2/16/2020 09:45:42 pm

https://twitter.com/evil1666

Roger

2/16/2020 09:55:19 pm

A few people are using that name online. Probably more than one person in fact. Here is another one I found.

https://myspace.com/evilone666/

Rubislaw 32 link

2/17/2020 04:37:51 am

Yes Roger ,it's certainly all a bit '' weird '' at this early stage ( ? ) .

This guy Evil1sixsixsix seem to have a thing on the satirical side of Mr.Trump . And offers very little really , in terms of words . He does seem to just like putting up images , and waiting for other to comment .

Having said that , it had me pulling out some handwriting samples in my personal possession , that compared '' very favourably '' to my surprise .

I'm simply too weary , to make any real judgements , though . I've recently had an extended session with politicians whom , claim that they are not in a position to intercede in a Zodiac outlier case .

Do Departments of Justice really '' rule the roost '' in Western societies ? It certainly seems so .

Ray Grant link

2/18/2020 10:47:28 am

Roger
“I once would have agreed with the Ray Grant theory, but now I find it unlikely. I know from my own experiences in life just how easy it is to be a member of a large crowd and not be seen by anyone apart from one or two people who I've literally had to approach and almost bump into face to face before they have recognized me.   Churches are places where people often tend to look around to see who else is in attendance. But when it comes to libraries, people tend to be pre-occupied with their own reasons for going there. People tend to be focused on research, newspapers, journals, and books, and the few people who were socializing were probably so wrapped up in quiet conversation they were not taking much notice of anyone around them. If you want to have a conversation in a library you virtually have to sit in a tight circle and whisper to each other. In libraries people tend to mind their own business and are often lost in thought. Cheri Jo had lost the bibliography to her assignment and was desperate to re-compile all of the books she had used. This would not only have been time-consuming (again, I know this from experience as a one-time university student - because the same thing once happened to me). It would also mean she probably had her head buried in books the whole time. She would not have entered the library with her head held high, wanting to be noticed by the entire world in order to be the "life of the party". That is not the reason why people attend libraries. Perhaps she had just sat on the floor at the back of a row of shelves, deeply engaged in her own studies, a large book concealing her face. And as for the times of those screams, well I have already stated what I think was a more likely scenario on another of Richard's articles. I have also checked out books from libraries in the old days when they were busy and I can guarantee the librarian did not lift her head once to look at me. She just grabbed the stamp and checked my books, and I hurried away.”

I suspect you’re the type of person who blends into the background, but Cheri Bates wasn’t. Cheri ate breakfast with her Dad at Sandy’s Restaurant in the Hardman Center that morning. A lady at a nearby table waited for her French toast during the entire time Cheri and Joseph arrived, ordered, ate their meal, and left. And Cheri teased the lady unmercifully throughout that time.

She was seen or otherwise encountered seven times between 3:45pm and 6:15pm that evening, even though she was technically alone that entire time:

3:45pm: Cheri calls Stefani Guttman. 4:30pm: Friends see Cheri’s car parked in front of her house. 5:20pm: Her Dad finds the note Cheri left for him in the kitchen. 5:25pm: The Mexican-American student sees Cheri sitting outside the Quad. 5:30pm: Donna, her co-worker at the bank, gets a call from Cheri. 6:10pm: A female friend sees Cheri driving TOWARD RCC on Magnolia. 6:15pm: Cheri is seen for the last time, by the March Air Force Base man.

Cheri was on everyone’s radar, and she had asked Stefani to accompany her to the library, so she wasn’t going there to keep to herself. Plus she was very beautiful, and there were lots of males around. And yet no one saw her or anyone who looked like her.

She wasn’t there.

Roger
“I am unsure what you are suggesting here. Meals and gastric juices! For crying out loud. You are putting too much faith in the autopsy findings on gastric stomach contents, something that could be out [off?[ by up to 4 hours.”

Stomach contents are Criminology 101, Roger. For crying out loud.

Rubislaw 32
“So I am led to believe , Ray Grant is of the opinion that the '' killing and extortion phenomenon '' that was '' The Zodiac '' was a 4-person academic consortium , that included Gareth Penn and his mother .”

Under California Penal Code Section 518 PC, extortion is a criminal offense that involves the use of force or threats to compel another person into providing money or property, or using force or threats to compel a public official to perform or neglect an official act or duty. In other words, the letter writer in the Zodiac Killer case wasn’t guilty of extortion, since demanding that his letters be publicized doesn’t fall under the definition of extortion. In other words, after six years, the letter writer couldn’t be charged with anything if he wasn’t also guilty of the murders.

Roger
“As for Ray Grant, it seems to be an open and shut case of PSS = "Pet Suspect Syndrome". We have seen it raise its ugly head many times before. If the evidence doesn't quite fit for them, they force it. They hammer square pegs into round holes, and anyone who tries to correct them, even on the slightest of details, also gets a verbal hammering. Those who immediately resort to "ad hominem" attacks while preferring to cherry pick evidence are often one and the

Roger

2/18/2020 05:16:24 pm

Please show me a Riverside PD police report that proves any of these times. If you only have newspaper reports or second or third-hand accounts from journals and books, well that is simply not good enough to form the basis of an elaborate claim that Penn, O'Hare and his mom killed Cheri Jo Bates.

You say "She was seen or otherwise encountered seven times between 3:45pm and 6:15pm that evening, even though she was technically alone that entire time:
3:45pm: Cheri calls Stefani Guttman. 4:30pm: Friends see Cheri’s car parked in front of her house. 5:20pm: Her Dad finds the note Cheri left for him in the kitchen. 5:25pm: The Mexican-American student sees Cheri sitting outside the Quad. 5:30pm: Donna, her co-worker at the bank, gets a call from Cheri. 6:10pm: A female friend sees Cheri driving TOWARD RCC on Magnolia. 6:15pm: Cheri is seen for the last time, by the March Air Force Base man.
Cheri was on everyone’s radar, and she had asked Stefani to accompany her to the library, so she wasn’t going there to keep to herself. Plus she was very beautiful, and there were lots of males around. And yet no one saw her or anyone who looked like her."

But you see, it all depends on which newspaper or journal report you believe.

The 1969 Inside Detective journal stated that the boy saw Cheri Jo at 5:30 waiting outside the library and she was busy writing something in her spiral notepad.

Yet other reports I've read stated: "He [the Mexican-American student] stated he knew Cheri Jo Bates and had noticed her in the library the night in question." "He said he saw the girl "writing something with a ball point pen" in her blue spiral school notebook." "The boy told investigators he was outside about 5.30-5.40 pm, waiting for the library to open at 6, and it was then he saw Cheri Jo." "AND IT WAS THEN" kind of suggests he saw her closer to 6, does it not?

So these reports tend to suggest that the time he observed the girl could have been much longer than just 5:30 on the dot, because he had watched her writing things in her spiral notebook, and we can presume from this she was there right up until the library opened at 6, just as he was! He does not mention seeing her leave at any point.

Don't you think he or the other patrons would have noticed her being abducted, considering how close by she was parked?

And even if we do go by only newspaper reports and journals:

The only discrepancy we find is with the reported time of the Mexican-American boy's account, which we now know must have been later than he had estimated.

Third hand news reports suggest Cheri Jo Bates was spotted by two eyewitnesses (a March Air Force Base man and a friend of Cheri's driving on Magnolia Avenue) that evening, arriving toward Terracina Drive at 6.10-6.15 pm. One would expect that a March Air Base man should know the correct time to account for DST!

Shortly after 6.10 pm, four young men, under police interrogation the following day, stated "they had seen Cheri Jo near her car." So there you have it, she was seen!

The boys didn't recall any suspicious activity around the Volkswagen Beetle that evening, so the claim she was lured away or abducted as soon as she arrived on Terracina Drive or shortly after could not have happened, unless they were complicit in her murder and providing a false testimony.

Around 7.15 pm the 4 young men were spotted by other eyewitnesses in exactly the same location, which tends to rule out any theories of their involvement in foul play up to that point in time.

The four young men claimed to have seen Cheri Jo Bates at around 6.13 pm, likely when she had exited her vehicle to take the short walk to the library.

A witness, Walter Siebert stated that he and a few friends were in the library from 7.15 pm until 9, but did not see Miss Bates, whom they all knew. They said they saw four men dressed in work clothes sitting on a fence across from the spot where Miss Bates' car was parked, but they did not know them.

This confirms that four young men had been present from 6.15 pm (by their admission) through to 7.15 pm opposite Cheri Jo Bates' Volkswagen Beetle, however it is possible they may have left and returned again by 7.15 pm at which time they were noticed by Mr Siebert.

One would presume Mr Siebert was well aware of the correct time, as he never claimed he saw the 4 young men shortly after the library opened. We can only conclude that he must have been aware that he was seated with friends at around 7.15pm when he noticed the 4 boys outside.

Walter Siebert and his friends recalled the four men but not Cheri Jo Bates. The four men had indicated they saw Cheri Jo at approximately 6.13 pm, when she arrived at Terracina Drive to enter the library. It would therefore appear that her vehicle had not been tampered with or disabled up to 7.30 pm. That is of course to presume the 4 boys were being entirely honest in their testimony.

Ray Grant link

2/18/2020 07:33:29 pm

“So these reports tend to suggest that the time he observed the girl could have been much longer than just 5:30 on the dot, because he had watched her writing things in her spiral notebook, and we can presume from this she was there right up until the library opened at 6, just as he was! He does not mention seeing her leave at any point.”

Eyewitness testimony has to be reconciled with other accounts and other circumstantial and forensic evidence. If you assume she was at the library at 6pm and then went in, you have to throw out the two eyewtinesses who saw her driving TOWARD RCC at 6:10pm and 6:15pm, respectively.

“Don't you think he or the other patrons would have noticed her being abducted, considering how close by she was parked?”

No, because she wasn’t abducted until circa 6:20pm, probably about a block west of the library, and just east of the alley where she was last seen. She clearly knew she was being followed, or there would be no reason to make the right off Magnolia and then the left up the alley parallel to Magnolia. So I’m guessing she pulled over to let the trailing car pass, and instead it pulled in behind her.

“The only discrepancy we find is with the reported time of the Mexican-American boy's account, which we now know must have been later than he had estimated.”

It would have been circa 6:25pm. That’s what makes sense, if you assume she called Donna from a pay phone circa 5:30pm, and then drove back to her house to look for the bibliography.

“Shortly after 6.10 pm, four young men, under police interrogation the following day, stated "they had seen Cheri Jo near her car." So there you have it, she was seen!”

Or they were off about the time.

“The boys didn't recall any suspicious activity around the Volkswagen Beetle that evening, so the claim she was lured away or abducted as soon as she arrived on Terracina Drive or shortly after could not have happened, unless they were complicit in her murder and providing a false testimony.”

Or just didn’t see her get abducted.

“The four young men claimed to have seen Cheri Jo Bates at around 6.13 pm, likely when she had exited her vehicle to take the short walk to the library.”

Then you have to throw out the two witnesses who saw her driving her car.

“A witness, Walter Siebert stated that he and a few friends were in the library from 7.15 pm until 9, but did not see Miss Bates, whom they all knew. They said they saw four men dressed in work clothes sitting on a fence across from the spot where Miss Bates' car was parked, but they did not know them.”

She was abducted circa 6:20pm.

“This confirms that four young men had been present from 6.15 pm (by their admission) through to 7.15 pm opposite Cheri Jo Bates' Volkswagen Beetle, however it is possible they may have left and returned again by 7.15 pm at which time they were noticed by Mr Siebert.”

Or they were just wrong about the initial time, as the conflicting testimony suggests.

“One would presume Mr Siebert was well aware of the correct time, as he never claimed he saw the 4 young men shortly after the library opened. We can only conclude that he must have been aware that he was seated with friends at around 7.15pm when he noticed the 4 boys outside.”

At 7:15pm, Cheri was already abducted and nothing that happened on Terracina Drive witnesswise matters.

“Walter Siebert and his friends recalled the four men but not Cheri Jo Bates. The four men had indicated they saw Cheri Jo at approximately 6.13 pm, when she arrived at Terracina Drive to enter the library. It would therefore appear that her vehicle had not been tampered with or disabled up to 7.30 pm. That is of course to presume the 4 boys were being entirely honest in their testimony.”

Or they were just wrong in their time estimate.

Roger

2/18/2020 09:19:50 pm

1) You have never read the actual police reports, yet on the basis of cherry-picked second and third hand newspaper and journal articles you claim you have objective proof that places Penn, O'Hare and his mother at the crime scene and you suggest that, beyond reasonable doubt, they must have killed Cheri Jo Bates. Where is the evidence for any of it?

I would contend that I would have just as much proof to contend that Cheri Jo was abducted by the Abominable Snowman, and as you suggest the times are entirely relative to whatever theory I wish to pluck from thin air.

2) Your entire theory is one of convenience based on your way of manipulating and stretching the evidence towards your theory.

Sorry but I have read far too many of those kinds of theories before.

And you come up with Penn, O'Hare and his mom roaming about the place killing people! Come on man!! Are you serious, or just seeking to entertain us?

Ray Grant link

2/18/2020 10:49:41 am

Roger
“As for Ray Grant, it seems to be an open and shut case of PSS = "Pet Suspect Syndrome". We have seen it raise its ugly head many times before. If the evidence doesn't quite fit for them, they force it. They hammer square pegs into round holes, and anyone who tries to correct them, even on the slightest of details, also gets a verbal hammering. Those who immediately resort to "ad hominem" attacks while preferring to cherry pick evidence are often one and the same personality types, and sadly all too commonly encountered in our modern online world.”

Give me a SPECIFIC example of my forcing or cherry picking the evidence to fit my pet suspect(s), and I don’t mean a lot of vague general statements.

Roger
“The hilarious thing is that this is the first day in my entire life I have ever heard of Ray Grant, despite the fact that, after doing a bit of online digging, I quickly discovered that he is evidently very "famous". At one time he even declared himself to be the identity who coined the term "Zodiac killer", long after that term had actually been used! The "third person" narrative of "Enough About Me" is just bizarre. It reads as though he is such a world-renowned detective he must have a paid biographer following him about, who is chronicling all of his great work on the case through time.”

Writing a bio section in the 3rd person is pro forma; even Michael Butterfield does it. Check the “About This Site” section of his website.

In the meantime, here’s my response to the Butterfield article which you apparently just read and don’t know the background of. This was posted several years ago on one of my own websites:

By the way, I just noticed the Unshared Delusions article on [Butterfield’s] website. I put the original paragraph up there because I’d never seen any examples of the term ‘Zodiac Killer’ before I’d used it in 1991. I figured if there was an earlier use of the term, someone would point it out. In fact, I posted a comment on ZodiacKiller.com to that effect:

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/6791#.UfTe6lOxOTE

Hey, have any of you researchers (Seagull, Tracers, Tahoe27, Howard) checked on my claim that I coined the term 'Zodiac killer' in my 1991 pamphlet mailed to everyone living within a 3-block radius of Michael O'Hare's house (The Zodiac Killer Lives—In Brookline)?  My contention is that every previous reference to the killer in newspaper accounts and books either calls him 'Zodiac' (as Graysmith does) or calls him 'the Zodiac' (as Gareth Penn does). 'Zodiac killer' became the standard usage because of the Internet; if you just Google 'Zodiac', you get a lot of horoscope sites.  It's an extremely minor point, obviously, but I don't want to claim authorship if someone else beat me to it. Mike Butterfield would write a Ph.D. dissertation about how presumptuous I was. It would be titled, BLAH BLAH BLAH.  The great thing about Butterfield writing a dissertation is that it's a natural follow-up to his Bachelor's and Master's degrees.  Oh, wait.
 Dave Oranchak then emailed me:
 Since you asked:  https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/e7756f0a-1a07-48de-83ce-85560b80e024/dce87e52c212d544ea5ae7396f1652e5  -Dave

Grant was apparently embarrassed that his lie had been exposed and he finally and quietly removed his false claim from his websites without comment, correction, or apology.

Yeah, you’re right, I should have held a press conference to apologize to the world, and most of all, to Mike Butterfield, for my insufferable effrontery. My recollection is that the claim wasn’t up there very long; I’m surprised there’s an Internet archive shot of it. There’s all kinds of interesting information on that archived edition of ZKT, and Mike Butterfield chose to write a frothing-at-the-mouth article about my claiming coinage of ‘Zodiac Killer’ on what is obviously a tongue-in-cheek bio page.

Oh well, at least I still have my domestic hosting service . . .

[To explain that last reference, Butterfield was kicked off SAVVIS after I complained to them about his defamatory posts about me.]

Rubislaw 32
“So, by Ray Grant's reckoning , a well documented radio exchange , that took place between Penn and O'Hare where , O'Hare tore Penn's accusations of O'Hare apart , with O'Hare finally exposing Penn as plain wrong ....was just a '' rigged '' debate ( ? ) .”

Exactly. By the way, you’re aware that pro wrestling is scripted, right?

Roger
“I think the problem for Grant is he had a habit of reading too much into things he really had little information about, then publishing it as being "totally authoritative" and "objective". Then he reacts badly when other people pick holes in his theories and prove him wrong. He first of all retaliates, then as the inevitable real

Ray Grant link

2/18/2020 10:51:19 am

Roger
“I think the problem for Grant is he had a habit of reading too much into things he really had little information about, then publishing it as being "totally authoritative" and "objective". Then he reacts badly when other people pick holes in his theories and prove him wrong. He first of all retaliates, then as the inevitable realization sinks in about the weight of contrary evidence, he skulks away and falls silent. Then at a later date he secretly deletes all the online content relating to that particular theory as if it is a painful and embarrassing memory that he wishes to erase from public existence. We see this happening time and time again with Zodiac suspects and theories. Having a suspect and a theory is okay, so long as we are willing to listen to alternative explanations that are based on the known evidence. The problem with writing a book about suspects and theories is we then have to be prepared to spend the rest of our lives trying to defend our original contentions.”

Give me an example of someone picking a hole in my theory and proving me wrong.

Back in July 2011, a couple moderators on Tom’s board (Sean O’Brien and the late Vincent Graves) began deleting my posts right after I made them, apparently because they didn’t like what I was saying. At one point I had six consecutive posts deleted; one was deleted in the time it took me to leave my desk and walk to the bus stop. At that point, I responded by self-deleting ALL my content left on the board, in protest, and eventually Sean and Vincent resigned from the message board. Mike Morford still has posts of mine up on his board without my name attached to them, because I didn’t delete them before I left. So from that point on, I always delete my posts if I’m leaving a message board, and I’ve done the same thing on You Tube.

I react badly to ad hominem attacks from anonymous posters such as yourself. If someone presents an actual argument, I respond to it. DO YOU HAVE AN ARGUMENT YOU’D CARE TO PRESENT? No, I didn’t think so.

Roger
“He reads all sorts of things into the events in the timeline and at one point even seems to be implying "something was a bit off" with Cheri Jo's father Joseph, i.e. Grant claims they had argued over religion on the day before her death.”

I’m not reading anything into anything. Joseph Bates himself said, in a newspaper article, that he and Cheri didn’t agree on religion. But they still attended mass together that morning.

Roger
“However Grant did seem to reach two bizarre conclusions by the time he wrote his book: 1) Everybody else has been wrong about the case, including the FBI and the police, and 2) Penn was part of a larger team which included Michael O’Hare, O’Hare’s mother, and Penn’s father. I am sure one of the older members of this motley cult could aptly account for the mysterious "bearded man" in the library the night of Cheri Jo's murder?”

By definition, if you have a cold case, the police haven’t been right about it (yet). I base my conclusions on what’s in the police reports, among other evidence.

The bearded man in the library that night was with a woman; they spoke to each other and did not speak to anyone else. And they didn’t return for the reenactment two weeks later. They were Michael O’Hare and his mother, Berta Margoulies, and they were checking out the books found in Cheri’s car.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/18/2020 12:49:10 pm

Hi '' Rage - Rant '' .

I keep telling you that you write too much . You should invest in a refresher's course on precis .

You know it makes sense .

'' Rage , rage , rage against the dying of the light..''

But , in your case , your ridiculous Zodiac theory .

From me .

Ray Grant link

2/18/2020 03:35:21 pm

“I keep telling you that you write too much .”

I may write too much, but I still write less than Roger, and I don’t see you complaining about the length of HIS posts.

“But , in your case , your ridiculous Zodiac theory .”

It’s so ridiculous you can’t make a single argument against any of it.

“From me .”

Whatever you say, Obstacleisagiven. By the way, don’t ever complain about Tom Voigt using alt-accounts again. You're literally as two-faced as they come.

Roger

2/18/2020 04:23:16 pm

And you would also have to contend that the Mexican-American student who was certain he saw Cheri Jo, and the librarian who said he "might" have seen Cheri Jo, were both either hallucinating or "in on" the plot as part of a wider conspiracy. Or that she was abducted after the Mexican American saw her - a time when a number of other patrons had gathered. Yet inexplicably the duo had to check out her books to cover up their crime. And of course this entire question could easily be resolved if we look at forensics. Somehow I doubt Riverside PD would have been so remiss as to fingerprint Cheri Jo's entire car but forget about fingerprinting her books. Oh but of course, O'Hare and his mom were one step ahead of the cops and had worn gloves on this very warm night and then forced Cheri Jo to handle the books after they had checked them out. It all seems a tad far-fetched.

Roger

2/18/2020 03:59:22 pm

Thanks for your reply Rubislaw. Personally I cannot see much point.

I will say this. Grant writes: "The bearded man in the library that night was with a woman; they spoke to each other and did not speak to anyone else. And they didn’t return for the reenactment two weeks later. They were Michael O’Hare and his mother, Berta Margoulies, and they were checking out the books found in Cheri’s car."

Although I agree there is some evidence to suggest the unknown man was indeed with an unknown woman, I would love to see the proof that "they were Michael O’Hare and his mother, Berta Margoulies". Without a little thing called proof, you might as well claim he was Bigfoot and his missus. LOL!

Roger

2/18/2020 04:27:28 pm

Misplaced duplicate posting above. My post should have gone here.

And you would also have to contend that the Mexican-American student who was certain he saw Cheri Jo, and the librarian who said he "might" have seen Cheri Jo, were both either hallucinating or "in on" the plot as part of a wider conspiracy. Or that she was abducted after the Mexican American saw her - a time when a number of other patrons had gathered. Yet inexplicably the duo had to check out her books to cover up their crime. And of course this entire question could easily be resolved if we look at forensics. Somehow I doubt Riverside PD would have been so remiss as to fingerprint Cheri Jo's entire car but forget about fingerprinting her books. Oh but of course, O'Hare and his mom were one step ahead of the cops and had worn gloves on this very warm night and then forced Cheri Jo to handle the books after they had checked them out. It all seems a tad far-fetched.

Ray Grant link

2/19/2020 03:32:57 am

“1) You have never read the actual police reports, yet on the basis of cherry-picked second and third hand newspaper and journal articles you claim you have objective proof that places Penn, O'Hare and his mother at the crime scene and you suggest that, beyond reasonable doubt, they must have killed Cheri Jo Bates. Where is the evidence for any of it?”

ANY proposed interpretation of the evidence will necessarily involve some amount of cherry-picking, since the accounts are in conflict with one another. And any such interpretation will necessarily be circumstantial, since only law enforcement has the power to obtain objective proof from POIs.  

“2) Your entire theory is one of convenience based on your way of manipulating and stretching the evidence towards your theory.”

  And you contend that she was somehow in the library that night, even though 65 people put through an elaborate reenactment two weeks after the murder said she wasn’t. And the very fact that Riverside PD staged that reenactment tells us they had no idea where she was after 6:15pm.

“And you would also have to contend that the Mexican-American student who was certain he saw Cheri Jo, and the librarian who said he "might" have seen Cheri Jo, were both either hallucinating or "in on" the plot as part of a wider conspiracy.”

The Mexican-American student DID see Cheri Jo, he just saw her circa 5:25pm (sorry for the mistype above, unfortunately this website doesn’t allow one to edit posts after the fact). I think one student staff member saying he might have seen Cheri Jo that night, or it might have been some other night he was thinking of, doesn’t qualify as a sighting in the face of the other 64 attendees who didn’t see her or anyone who looked like her.

“Or that she was abducted after the Mexican American saw her - a time when a number of other patrons had gathered.”

I believe she was abducted about a block west of the library, after she made a right turn off the alley parallel to Magnolia.

“Yet inexplicably the duo had to check out her books to cover up their crime.”

To cover up the abduction and place her in the library.

“Somehow I doubt Riverside PD would have been so remiss as to fingerprint Cheri Jo's entire car but forget about fingerprinting her books. Oh but of course, O'Hare and his mom were one step ahead of the cops and had worn gloves on this very warm night and then forced Cheri Jo to handle the books after they had checked them out.”

We don’t know that RPD checked the entire car or its contents for latents, since the latents they did collect were in grease from the engine, and they would have assumed the perpetrator’s prints were well-represented there, particularly since the books apparently didn’t have any engine grease on them. In any case, if Berta Margoulies checked out the books with Cheri’s ID, which would be done so that a female was using an ID with a female name, her prints would just be random latents to the police.

“Well '' Rage-Rant '' , this really shows how naive you are . I only used a second posting name , since Reddit would not accept Rubislaw 32 .”

That’s funny. It accepted ‘Rubislaw32’ when I tried it just now. But maybe you need your space?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/18/2020 04:20:55 pm

Well '' Rage-Rant '' , this really shows how naive you are . I only used a second posting name , since Reddit would not accept Rubislaw 32 .

Otherwise , I would have been happy to stick with just the one .

But it's your flawed perception of Tom Voigt , that must really floor any sensible minded reader at this site .

Voigt is known to have posting names , that run into the hundreds , at the very least and , fashions his presence on the Zodiac internet , with this underpinning strategy .

Although you often give the impression of being wet behind the ears , Rage , not many would have taken you for having been born yesterday .

We live and learn ?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/19/2020 09:27:20 am

Allow me , if I may , to give you back the respect , of your Christian name , Ray .

Regardless of any ensuing arguments that your '' very individual '' Zodiac theory , causes , it is of course , your right to pursue it .

Although , perhaps by now , you must realise that you haven't exactly picked up any supporters , over the theory ( ? ) .

And I think that there are a number of contributors that understand that you are a '' decent fellow '' , however patronising that might appear to sound .

If you could just stay clear of the madness and fraudulence , of the '' very worst '' influence on the Zodiac internet community , ever , Mr. Voigt , then I believe you would have a more fulfilling and enjoyable time , discussing aspects of the case .

Roger

2/19/2020 01:51:41 pm

"If you could just stay clear of the madness and fraudulence , of the '' very worst '' influence on the Zodiac internet community , ever , Mr. Voigt, then I believe you would have a more fulfilling and enjoyable time , discussing aspects of the case "

That is the wisest advice I have ever heard! Simply being a member of those forums is destined to make people confused and miserable. "Madness and fraudulence" describes them very well, and is perhaps the reason why so many people have gotten frustrated and single-minded. They go off the rails as if in protest and concoct their own bizarre take on the crimes, basing much of their own theories on snippets styled around the same kind of madness they have taken with them. The desire to create a Moriarty style criminal mastermind is a common theme among these theories.

Sadly, we have long past the point where the Zodiac case is old enough to be farmed out to populist revisionism. Basically, a lot of people have resorted to making up extraordinary and complex stories, as if out of frustration at the lack of closure, or boredom at the repetitive mundanity of the facts (or both).

I am wondering what O'Hare must think of these preposterous allegations? He has perhaps learnt to laugh off the stigma of Zodiac accusations by now. Still, the allegations must hurt him, every time somebody mentions them. I am sure he just wishes that these obsessive types would find a more worthwhile activity to keep themselves occupied, such as protesting about climate change or social inequality.

O'Hare was ruled out long ago, Penn gave his prints willingly and was also ruled out. To rule them back in and place them on the top of the suspect list, and claim they were in cahoots, and involve O'Hare's mom in this crime spree, in the complete absence of any proof, is a bit much for the sincere among us to even contemplate.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/19/2020 02:42:38 pm

Yes Roger , those that have pinned their flag to the mast of Captain Voigt's doomed '' Titanic '' , seem to have elected to go down with his vessel .

I have read the transcript of the radio exchange between O'Hare and Penn , which recently I have been unable to find again . But , I can assure any interested readers that their appeared nothing '' rigged '' about it .

Indeed , O'Hare was '' hopping mad '' with Penn , for Penn's unrelenting accusations levelled against O'Hare and , had hoped that it would not arrive at a place where '' when push came to shove '', with O'Hare feeling he had no other option , than agree to confront Penn , over Penn's accusations , in public .

As the saying goes , Penn '' was left without a name '' .

Speculative perhaps , but I have read in the past that O'Hare ,as a young lecturer at Harvard , had a reputation for being quite a '' ladies man '' , and there may be some foundation that O'Hare had acquired sexual jealousy from his academic colleagues , with a consequence such as this , eventually arising .

Roger

2/19/2020 01:20:15 pm

Ray, your theory makes no sense. If she was abducted before she even got to the library, how did she park her car there? The 4 boys who saw her car parked around 6.15 onwards must have all been hallucinating. As was the Mexican-American student who saw her there between 5.25 - 6 before the library opened. The most rational thing to presume is the Mexican-American student had not left in that time and neither had Cheri Jo.

If what you claim is true, she must have arrived at the library at 5.25 to be seen by the other student, then slipped away without him noticing, she drove away again for some unknown reason, then turned around and came back, only to be abducted before she got to the library on that second occasion. Either that or the bearded man was standing behind her the whole time with a knife or gun to her back, forcing her to scribble notes into her pad.

None of that makes any sense at all! What you are basically suggesting is she arrived twice: once at 5.25 to be seen by the other student, he only saw her momentarily, then she wanders off for some reason, gets back in her car and leaves, comes back and is abducted a block or so away. Another person or persons (O'Hare's mom?) parks her car in the spot near the library at 6.15 and goes into the library. This person has somehow got a good idea of what Cheri Jo needs in the way of books, by reading her scribbled notes (she had lost her bibliography). This woman and the bearded fellow go inside, do a bit of research to determine what books Cheri needs, and check out the books. They sit them on the seat leaving "only a few latents" (that would be surprising, unless they are all wearing gloves!) after handling the books all the time in the library and all the way to the car. They hang around the library waiting for it to close. They bring Cheri Jo back to the alley way after everybody has left so they can struggle with her and kill her, leaving only one set of shoe prints (DJ Leavenworth).

Your entire theory is preposterous. It reads like something from a Scooby Doo cartoon.

And you still haven't answered how Penn, O'Hare and his mom could be involved in this elaborate and convoluted plot.

Wow I have read some bad theories in my time, but I must say this one takes first prize.

Ray, you asked me previously to name one person who has picked holes in your theory. Yet here you are defending your theory against all of the holes other people are finding in it. Shouldn't that be telling you something?

Roger

2/19/2020 03:14:27 pm

We can immediately dismiss Penn in any case, because he was not even living in California at the time!

Penn lived in Berkeley from 1963 to mid-1965. He was in Berlin between August and November 1965 and spent the remainder of that year in Fort Dix, New Jersey. For the whole of 1966 he was living in Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He did not leave there until late 1967, when he left for Greece and visited other parts of Europe for the remainder of 1967 to mid-1968.

Berta Margoulies could be easily ruled in or out if we check her archived records. Late in 1966 Margoulies was staying in New York, preparing for the exhibition there on December 16, 1966. Whether she was there as early as October would need to be established by going through her archives. We know she was there working on the elaborate floor plan for the exhibition, which would have required some time to complete in the lead up to such an important exhibition. She was an active member of a great many organizations, and served on numerous committees. I do not see how such an incredibly busy woman could have found the time for a bit of moonlighting as a cold-blooded killer! https://sova.si.edu/search?q=margoulies

Fracky McGustov

2/21/2020 11:31:20 pm

What a naive and small minded person you are! Are you like this every single day of your life? Do you live in a rock quarry? Related to the Flintstones?

Roger

2/22/2020 12:37:49 am

How did you know? Barney is my neighbor!

Roger

2/19/2020 02:31:23 pm

One can clearly see politics raising its ugly head in such allegations too. I recall a staunch advocate of the Richard Gaikowski theory once told me "It had to be him. He was a radical militant who taunted the cops in his student articles, and was hell bent on taking down the Government." The fact that many hundreds of students and young people were thinking and acting the same way at the time, seemed to have been completely ignored by this accuser.

Similarly it would be easy for staunch Republicans to declare O'Hare "un-American" and use this to further promote an idea that the man "cannot be trusted". From: http://weeklyscientist.blogspot.com/2009/10/with-malice-aforethought-3.html

Over his decades-long career, Michael O’Hare has examined alternative energy, NIMBY, artistic license, and recently for Science, how bio-fuels contribute to greenhouse gases. He argued in the Boston Globe for sophisticated safeguards to protect museum treasures post-9/11 and in the San Francisco Chronicle for a technological solution to musician compensation post-Napster.

His passion for activism runs in the family.

A well-known socialist agitator, O’Hare’s grandmother Kate Richards O’Hare was an anti-WWI protester. Her activism landed her in a Missouri penitentiary for violating the “Espionage Act” of 1917.

Michael O’Hare’s grandfather Francis was an early 20th century labor advocate and “one of the truly great men of St. Louis — possibly the ONLY one,” according to a Teamster newspaper. But Frank O’Hare was also a terrible businessman whose many failures cost him his marriage.

Son Eugene — Mike O’Hare’s father — was a DIY pioneer who authored several books on woodworking and home repair. He married Berta Margoulies, a Polish-Jew who had immigrated to Belgium shortly before World War I. After the Germans invaded and imprisoned her father, Margoulies fled to Holland, to England, and then to New York City, where she became a professional female sculptor. Accepting commissions from the Works Progress Administration during the Great Depression, Margoulies was known for her interpretations of hope amidst despair and oppression.

In 1946, when her son was three years old, Margoulies visited Berkeley as a Guggenheim Fellow. When she died in 1996 at her Walnut Creek home after living mostly on the East Coast, a San Francisco Chronicle obituary called her a “Bay Area sculptor” whose work had appeared at the Los Angeles County Museum during a 1994 retrospective.

Kate Richards O’Hare also came to California after living mostly elsewhere. Weary of poverty and Frank’s failing businesses, she left her husband for wealthy San Francisco businessman Charles Cunningham. She went to work for the California “Department of Penology,” becoming one of the country’s first penal reform advocates.

The Cunninghams lived in “one of the nicest homes in Benicia,” Sally Miller told me, where Kate Richards died in 1948.

A family of anti-war activists, academics, artists, social justice advocates who highlighted their country's inequality, Polish Jews and green left-wing supporters. It is not difficult to see how such people could easily become grist for rumor mills, by those who seek to portray them in a negative light. The Zodiac allegations perhaps have their roots in just such nefarious desires.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/19/2020 07:49:33 pm

After the recent letter , featured at the main Zodiac Reddit site , which ended with :

'' I will do my thing again this summer -Z ''

A quick return from the poster , known as Evil1sixsixsix , with a single line posted :

'' There are some surprises to come this summer -Z ''

Well , the general reaction to Evil1sixsixsix has been '' fake '' , and hardly surprising , in light of Tom Voigt 's St.Patrick Day's Card adjudged to be a hoax , by Pleasant Hill P.D. and the FBI . Voigt continuing his behaviour , with the '' Glitter Doll '' crime scene hoaxes and the '' Burger Chef '' promo hoax .

So , one could be forgiven for thinking that the art of Zodiac hoaxing might be ( unfortunately ) catching on , on the internet scene ( ? ) .

My only suggestion is not to be overly complacent about dismissing similar material immediately . Certain patterns might emerge , in the wake of a single '' offering '' which , might give better clues to authenticity .

A possible explanation of the recent photographed letter (...more likely placed on a carpet ) , if authentic Zodiac :

The FBI and CA DOJ see an '' end game '' to the case , and have decide to attempt a sort of '' curiosity '' public relations exercise with the Zodiac internet community ,as they creep closer to an arrest or official resolution announcement .

But , all things considered , the '' fake '' is more likely .

~Bill

4/23/2020 11:01:24 am

Rubislaw32,
Has this been brought up before in reference to CJB case "inspiration" or modeling? it may be an insight, or not, but i would like to share it with you for your "take". I posted on another "forum" with no response.

~Bill

Just out of curiosity, has anyone presented the idea that the Cheri Jo Bates murderer may have gained inspiration from the "Leopold and Loeb" murder case of 1924, which would have been the "crime of the century" up until that time?

1) A pair of perpetrators (yes I believe there is an accomplice, please don't let that detract from this post)

2) A “confession”

3) A somewhat "odd" poem (which in itself has similarities to the "desktop poem" at the Riverside Community College library)

4) A big name, "celebrity" attorney (Clarence Darrow in the case of Leopold and Loeb, and Melvin Belli in the Zodiac case)

Leopold dropped his eyeglasses at the scene where the body was dumped, which is also how the two were eventually caught. The glasses were specially made, and two of the three pairs purchased were accounted for by their owners. A watch happens to “drop” at the scene where the Cheri Jo Bates is found and a reasonable investigator would of course treat this as "evidence". I believe this watch found at the Cheri Jo Bates crime scene probably has no connection to this crime, which we know had to be somewhat planned. Even the clue within the clue (the paint on the watch) was probably planted for effect. I believe the killer(s) of Cheri Jo Bates to be a "detail" focused in their efforts (as suggested by his preference for "listing" and "categorizing" items, among other things), in his actions and correspondence.

Leopold and Loeb would have been popular in the media during this time. Leopold was paroled in 1958 and it would have been newsworthy. Books, movies, etc., were in circulation during this time period - and through 1966, This case should have been at least known by the killer of Cheri Jo Bates. A killer researching the "how to commit the perfect murder" in 1966 would likely have came across this material again. Remember, in 1966 the Leopold and Loeb case was as young to the killer of Cheri Jo Bates as the Zodiac case is to our current time, and it would have been VERY well known. It has only faded from memory because it has been lost in a "sea" of other killers that have been more newsworthy since that time.

I believe the watch was an "intentional clue" left at the crime scene, (possibly stolen or something of that nature) and "doctored" with no connection to the individuals who left it. I believe that the Cheri Jo Bates murder was probably the Zodiac Killer's first major crime, but I am not absolutely certain on that point. What I am convinced of is that the Cheri Jo Bates murder IS a Zodiac killer crime.

Clarence Darrow quoted from the works of A.E. Houseman during the course of the Leopold and Loeb trial:
(spoken by Clarence Darrow during Leopold and Loeb “crime of
the century” trial, 1924)

“Now hollow fires burn out to black, / And lights are fluttering low:
Square your shoulders, lift your pack / And leave your friends and go.
O never fear, lads, naught's to dread, / Look not left nor right:
In all the endless road you tread / There's nothing but the night.”

1) Separation with /

I will admit that I do not study poetry, but of the poetry I have read, this type of separation does not occur all that frequently

Here is another of the works of A.H Houseman. It was one of the first that showed up on my search:
(excerpt from “A Shropshire Lad And Other Poems: The Collected
Poems of A.E. Houseman”, p. 44, XXXIV “The New Mistress”)

“‘I will go where I am wanted, to a lady born and bred
Who will dress me free for nothing in a uniform of red;
She will not be sick to see me if I only keep it clean;
I will go where I am wanted for a soldier of the Queen.’"

1) Red

2) Sick

3) Clean

4) Throw in She if you like

5) Dress

These are very "descriptive" words which also appear in the "Desktop Poem" structure. 4 out of 5 of these words also all occur within the span of 15 words of this text. That is a "high rate" of usage for this text to also appear in another low word count text (desktop poem). It is just an observation.

There are numerous additional similarities between the two cases. I believe the reason that the Zodiac killer attempted to contact F. Lee Bailey or Melvin Belli for the exact same reason that Clarence Darrow was brought in to defend Leopold and Loeb. I believe the perpetrators were planning an “insanity defense” in case things did not go as expected. And yes, I would like to state again, I believe there were TWO perpetrators in these crimes. Leopold was a free man during this time, being paroled in 1958, and not passing away until 1971. I think it was a mistake for law enforcement not to seek him out for advice in a case that had so much in common w

Roger

2/22/2020 06:37:31 pm

I still find myself re-visiting scenarios relating to Riverside PD's prime suspect, "Bob Barnett", the elusive man who would run off to an island paradise to further his career far from the prying eyes and allegations of his accusers.

Tom Voigt presents an excellent collection of evidence and witness testimony to support this man's guilt, but we really only have his word on it that the evidence he has gathered is entirely factual.

Ultimately DNA would have the final say on the matter. DNA apparently ruled out "Bob Barnett".

Could there have been two male suspects outside the library that night? Cheri was athletic and I am sure could have outrun her attacker if she had a head start. So the person she scratched that night may have been a different man entirely - a friend of the prime suspect perhaps? When you really think about it, would Cheri's ex have gone there alone at that time of night? He may have needed another man to restrain her. If he had disabled her car engine this clearly suggests that he wanted Cheri Jo to stay put at this location until he had told her everything that he had wanted to get off his chest. I do not believe he intentionally wanted to kill her. He just wanted to frighten her into submission and reason with her. But things escalated out of control and I think he did kill her.

In my opinion, the DNA most likely belongs to another man. Two other men who were friends of the prime suspect have admitted things under polygraph testing that strongly point to Barnett's guilt. One of the men only failed the polygraph when it came to questions relating to his own possible involvement in the murder.

Barnett evaded the police polygraph because he answered in a manner that was perhaps deliberately hostile to the test and he failed to answer the questions succinctly and precisely. The polygraph test on him was abandoned.

So was another man's DNA under Cheri Jo's fingernails after the attack? Or did the lab simply get the results wrong. Contamination could indeed have occurred to make the results inconclusive or provide a false reading. https://education.seattlepi.com/can-make-dna-swab-read-wrong-results-5097.html

Voigt contends that there is evidence to suggest witnesses saw two men in the grounds of the library around 1-2:30 that same night, with flashlights looking for something. One of Barnett;s friends would pass a polygraph test with the claim he had indeed gone there that night with Barnett to "look for something he had lost".

Perhaps a trial by jury would have been a more appropriate way for Riverside PD to bring closure on this case and a sense of justice, providing they have sufficient circumstantial and witness evidence. The more time that drifts by, the more vague people's memories will become and, of course, witnesses are all ageing and dying of old age.

A total reliance on science and DNA may actually be hindering the Cheri Jo Bates case rather than helping it!

3/3/2020 11:53:16 am

Truth of the Zodiac's murder of CJB - Not Bob Barnett

MURDER BASEMENT: The Curse of the Confession

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bKUoRLs-Q4

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THE CHERI JO BATES AUTOPSY FINDINGS-PART THREE

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