"ZODIAC SAYS HE KILLED S.F. OFFICER"

9/27/2020

The first three San Francisco Police officers killed in the line of duty in 1970 were Eric Zelms, murdered when he lost control of his firearm when investigating a pawn shop robbery on January 1st. The second was Brian McDonnell on February 16th 1970, who suffered devastating and sadly fatal injuries seven weeks later, when a bomb packed with fence staples exploded on an outside ledge of Park Police Station in the Upper Haight neighborhood. The third was Richard Radetich on June 19th 1970 at 5:25 am, who was gunned down by three shots from a .38 caliber revolver at point blank range through the driver side window of his vehicle while in the process of serving a parking ticket. He was sat in his police car near 643 Waller Street, San Francisco in the Lower Haight District.

The Zodiac Killer didn't personally name any of them, but referred to them indirectly when he stated "two cops pulled a goof", "I hope you do not think that I was the one who wiped out that blue meannie with a bomb at the cop station" and "I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38". Additonally, all three communications carried the message of his bomb-making.

The April 20th 1970 communication not only threatened that there was "more glory in killing a cop", but provided us with imagery that showed he had already set aside a location for his school bus bomb. The Zodiac Killer had specifically chosen a bus route traveling from north to south with a steep embankment on the right and the sun rising to the east. When deciding where to place his bus bomb, one would think the killer would be drawing from experience with regards to the best location. The diagram of the bus bomb location in the April 20th 1970 letter would eventually be discovered to be the embankment directly opposite Ingleside Police Station and alongside the parking lot of the City College of San Francisco. The addition of two crosshairs on the July 26th 1970 "Little List" letter would expand on the Button letter (a month earlier), and show to a 98% accuracy that the target was the Southern Freeway embankment opposite Ingleside Police Station - which was also a bus route. This would effectively kill two birds with one stone for the Zodiac Killer. Was the Zodiac Killer familiar with the City College of San Francisco, having worked at this location or even studied there?

Click image to view area on Google maps

The Zodiac Killer certainly wanted to paint a picture he was familiar with law enforcement practices, giving rise to the notion he may have worked at, or attended the City College of San Francisco, where he could possibly have crossed paths with Richard Radetich, who attended a criminology course prior to becoming a police officer with the San Francisco Police Department. Greg Corrales was a legendary San Francisco Police officer who knew Richard Radetich and stated that "Richard, who had recently been assigned to Traffic, regularly stopped at Ingleside Police Station to say hello to his former colleagues. He glowed when he talked about his new baby girl and his wife. He was an outstanding police officer and a devoted family man". It is clear that Richard Radetich took criminology classes at the City College of San Francisco before being assigned to duties at Ingleside Police Station just 850 feet east of the college. Richard Radetich had formerly been a student at Balboa High School, 585 meters to the east of Ingleside Police Station. This aligns Sgt. Richard Radetich at the City College of San Francisco (and likely parking lot) studying criminology, with the bus bomb designated for the eastern edge of the parking lot on an embankment, alongside a bus route traveling north to south (with the sun rising to the east), only 274 feet from Ingleside Police Station (where Radetich had worked) - and subsequently - the Mount Diablo code pinpointing this location. The Mount Diablo code letter would also indirectly reference the murder of Sgt. Richard Radetich on June 19th 1970.

It is highly unlikely that the Zodiac Killer was responsible for the murder of Sgt. Richard Radetich, with the previous observations just a simple case of unfortunate coincidences, but it still leaves pause for thought when you consider the location of the bomb had been earmarked in a letter two months in advance of his murder, on April 20th 1970. A letter that highlighted the bombing of Park Police Station and the murder of Brian McDonnell, with the claim that "It just wouldn't doo to move in on someone else's teritory". So, did the Zodiac Killer move to a territory slightly south of Park Police Station, the clue to which lay in the attached bus bomb diagram?

9/27/2020 07:36:04 am

I feel if Zodiac killed a cop he would have really boasted about it instead of issuing a vague statement that read “I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38". After all, this would have been Zodiac’s biggest hit, so why issue a very general and underwhelming message. I would think he would have called from a payphone and provided as many details as possible. Did he even specify that the man he shot was was in S.F. ?

Perhaps he was referring to a civilian shot in S.F or elsewhere in the Bay Area.

Richard

9/27/2020 09:00:46 am

I've checked all possible alternatives in that period, of which I haven't found any. I think the threat to kill a cop on April 20th, provided him with the perfect opportunity to issue the "vague" admission of his involvement on June 26th. By issuing a vague threat it leaves him a get out clause, like he did with the vague Pines card insinuating his involvement in the Lass disappearance, the vague "Aug" on the Dripping Pen card and the vague "riverside activity" not explicitly stating whether he was the author of the communications or the murderer. It is fairly clear that by issuing the statement "I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38", he was leaving himself another get out clause, had this murder been solved quickly. The Lass and Bates vague admissions also came years and months after the crimes, with a much greater chance they were to remain unsolved. He did the same with "woman and her baby" months after the fact. It's very likely he had no hand in the Radetich murder, however, it was worth exploring with regard to the Mount Diablo code.

Roger

9/28/2020 07:46:43 pm

The sad thing is that so many people were getting shot in SF at the time, I think Zodiac knew that sooner or later any threat (or "prediction") he made had to come true. So whether he did it or not was irrelevant. The fact that he had communicated the act (by way of threat or prediction) was possibly more important to him. Maybe his thinking was so mixed up by this time that he began to believe he was an omniscient cog who played a vital role in maintaining some universal plan. By this stage he could simply command his abstract slaves to go out and kill for him, and two days later, low and behold, the paper reports on another killing. He was making his own prediction come true. He takes responsibility because he truly believes he is so omniscient that he must have had some part to play in this fatality. To a crazy person who though he was "a Zodiac", able to manipulate the destiny of others, he may actually have believed he had the power to orchestrate life and death, and therefore he must be responsible if he had made the earlier threat. As with Herbert William Mullin, maybe if a natural disaster "came to pass" for him, that meant that deaths are intrinsically linked to earthquake activity, and so to avoid disaster people must be sacrificed to this god-like concept. So for Mullins, death must happen in order to stop earthquakes. People must be sacrificed like slaves of old. When Mullins felt that there were no longer enough young people dying in Vietnam, he felt obliged to bring about more deaths to make up for it. He felt he had to make things "come to pass" like some kind of religious prophet, in order to ward off the fate of an impending natural catastrophe. Perhaps the Zodiac also felt obliged to act if the stars or fate were not favoring his predicted manifestations? If there were not enough murders appearing on the news, perhaps he felt he had to do something about it to keep up the tally? I realize I am clutching at straws here, but who could possibly hope to understand what was going on in the mind of a mentally ill person? If he was a compartmentalized serial killer, he may indeed have considered his own life as having a purpose within the constraints and fantasies of those kinds of abstract mental compartments. Perhaps in Zodiac's mind it was not a case of him doing the killing, it was more a case of "someone must die by any means and by any hand, if not by others than it will be mine". We may consider him an idle boaster whenever he claimed victims that were not his own, but I sometimes wonder if there may be more to it than that, particularly in light of the whole paradice/slaves/afterlife theme he so frequently entertained. And so, rather than being a simple ruse he invented, these concepts may have actually been an integral part of his modus operandi. In other words he may well have been so crazy as to have actually believed all that stuff.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 09:06:50 am

Yes indeed Mo - '' vague statements '' were the order of the day , for the Zodiac , when he was attempting to come across , in a casual manner over what are actually brutal and evil crimes .

Seven days after the slaying of Richard Radetich , the Button letter claim . After Paul Stine's murder , the Zodiac had no guns left , having used up all three , in his possession . Stricter mail-order legislation , in California , and the Zodiac would never kill with a gun again , let alone ever own one again .

July 24th 1970 : ''...the woeman & baby that I gave a rather interesting ride for a couple of howers one evening ...'' . This is so clearly a case of the Zodiac finally coming across some news that was a few months old . Probably got round to settling down in a library , to catch up on what he had missed , while spending time after Christmas 1969 , well away from the Bay area .

It had been the '' wall decorating '' after the Robert Salem murder , that had enticed the Zodiac back into corresponding , April 20th 1970 and 4 months following his Belli letter of December 20th 1969 .

And not the abduction of Kathleen Johns , for which the Zodiac had played no part .

Richard

9/27/2020 09:21:38 am

I use to be 50/50 on the Johns abduction, but her story completely fails the smell test. A woman with no problems with her vehicle wilfully pulling over on a deserted road for an unknown male is rather stupid while pregnant and a child in tow. Then failing to ask for her keys back, despite him supposedly being friendly at that point. Then going on a two-hour jaunt around Tracy, to eventually and luckily escape only a few hundred metres from where you were "abducted". Either the person who "abducted" her is the stupidest and most inept killer ever born, or the story is fictitious. The Zodiac wasn't averse to blasting people through the window of their vehicle, but in this case the supposed ruthless killer played patty cake and charades for 2 hours, essentially driving her back to where she started.

Shawn link

9/27/2020 12:19:36 pm

"I use to be 50/50 on the Johns abduction, but her story completely fails the smell test."

The one thing that helps me hang onto the Johns case is the "by fire" because her car was burnt. Zodiac needed a "by fire" for the Halloween card.

For my theory on the Halloween Card Cryptic Symbol click my name for Youtube video.

Roger

9/28/2020 08:15:37 pm

Richard, the times were scary for some, but not that scary once you got away from the cities. Lots of hippies were hitchhiking about the place without a care in the world. Of course they knew the dangers, but also they had no money, so it was just a risk that many people took. A relative of mine hitchhiked around California and other parts of America for years, slept out on the roadsides and in school grounds after dark, during the height of the Zodiac and Manson killings. The groundskeepers never chased them when they camped out in country schools after dark. They even used the water taps and toilets. Nobody cared. There wasn't much vandalism in the country in those times. Schools provided free accommodation after dark for such transients. I also had a friend who did the same hitchhiking hippy thing in the 1970s. He would stop unannounced at farm houses and do a few chores in exchange for a meal or a bed in their barn. He said you could always tell the good people by their dogs. If the dogs were friendly most times the owners were too. None of these relatives or friends ever knowingly met with any bad people during all that time on the road. So a lot of it was just extremely bad luck if you happened to run into a crazy person who was out to kill you. Yes America had a high crime rate, but most of it was in the cities and America is a VERY big place after all. The country areas are VAST and still are today. Serial killers are by no means ubiquitous. So the fact that country bumpkin Kathleen decided to stop when a man flashed his lights in alarm at her, is not unusual for me. Where I grew up it was common courtesy in the remoter country areas to flag down another motorist if you noticed something was wrong with it, especially if they were driving an old clunker like Kathleen was. The roads were rough - very rough and the cars prone to breaking down. Even today if I pull over to answer my phone or stretch my legs, it is not long before a motorist comes along and pulls up to ask if I am okay. I have yet to be met by a gun-toting serial killer. These days of course people would think twice before stopping for someone.

My feeling is this guy had no desire to kill Kathleen. He may have been thinking things over during the first part of the abduction, but considering Kathleen was so damn homely and she had a kid to boot, I think he was just totally put off by her. She probably seemed common and matronly. He probably decided to just drive about in circles to frighten her and fully intended to let her go. I think he gave her the opportunity to depart his vehicle and he was glad to see the back of her. Whether he was the Zodiac or not, we really only have the Zodiac's boastful communication to go by. I personally think if Kathleen had been younger and very attractive and not had a child, she may have been killed by this man.

I actually drew up a sketch of the Zodiac suspect based on Kathleen John's description of the man. To say he looks absolutely hilarious would be an understatement. One thing is for certain, the guy did not seem to show much resemblance to the suspect at Lake Berryessa in terms of clothing. I realize fashions were bad at that time, but wow, this guy must have had no fashion sense at all. That much is for certain! lol!

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 09:20:41 am

Latest candidate put forward , as the owner of the bones found , 5 miles from Incline Village : Jimmy Hoffa .

Richard

9/27/2020 09:24:14 am

Or Denise Anderson, take by Thompson to Lake Tahoe. They should actually know the sex of the person by now.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 09:50:16 am

I bet they string this '' ripping yarn '' out , for months to come .

Always feeding tit-bits of interest , to buy time , and distance themselves from the memory of embarrassment .

9/27/2020 10:19:41 am

Yes, Zodiac’s earlier letters (and calls) in 1968/69 were meant to leave no doubt that he was the perpetrator, and are in clear contrast to the very general and suspect letters that may or may not be tied to certain crimes. Yes, he wanted to hint to a possible role without looking like a fool if someone else was found to be responsible. Interestingly, however, Mr. Radetich’s tragic murder is still unsolved.

I suppose we’ll never fin out about the validity of the Pines Card unless Ms. Lass’ body is found and can be tied to the directions outlined in the card.

The Sacramento Card about the slained couple from Laos is interesting because Zodiac said he was almost caught by police, which is a specific bit of information that he either made up or was trying to play games and twist the story about the transient witness, which was in the papers.

The thing about Kathleen Johns is that her car was set ablaze. It would have been very audacious, not to mention terrifingly risky, for the pregnant mother with a baby to burn her own car and run across a remote field in the dark of the night just to make up a story.

This brings us to the question, did Zodiac stop killing, but continue to boast about crimes committed by others, or did he continue to kill and not claim responsibility, leaving impostors to write letters?

9/27/2020 10:48:02 am

Now that I think about, most of the non-canonical crimes claimed by Zodiac are still unsolved (Donna Lass, Bates, Sacramento couple and Radetich). So, I suppose we have to give Z some benefit of the doubt. He’s either very lucky for crimes he took credit for to remain unsolved for several decades, or maybe he did play a role after all.

Obviously Karl Werner did expose Z as a liar, so there’s that aspect too.

Richard

9/27/2020 11:08:33 am

Hence his non-specificity in Lass, Bates, Snoozy, Furlong and Radetich. At least the 1986 letter gave us details, leaving no doubt about him (or other) claiming these specific murders, whether he just read about them or not. The "two weeks ago" was bang on, the "freeway" was correct, and "slaves and they" indicating more than one victim. Admittedly, anybody could have secured all this from the newspapers, but he left us no doubt about the victims he was claiming, which he didn't actually do in the aforementioned names.

Richard

9/27/2020 11:14:39 am

Again, he didn't claim the Riverside murder, just Riverside activity. If they found the real murderer and it wasn't Zodiac, he would have just claimed the letters - hence the word "activity". If you killer Cheri Jo Bates, just say you killed her, as he had no problem proclaiming in the BRS, LHR and PH crimes, along with the writing and phone call at LB. All these other crimes just innuendo and wishy-washy language.

Sully link

9/28/2020 11:58:50 pm

Greetings once again, Richard. Hope life is very healthy and upbeat for you.

When you mentioned Zs reference to his Riverside activity, my first thoughts went out to Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards, running for their lives on a secluded beach not too far north from where Cheri Jo Bates was slain.

You've pulled up many forgotten victims such as Denise Anderson and I'm sure you must have gone over this young couple's death scramble on Gaviota Beach before but they also could fall under Southern California activity, with a younger Z type MO pattern and similar behavior there.

Wonder if their clothing was ever DNA tested...... especially Linda's ??

Richard

9/29/2020 12:28:49 am

Never really considered the Domingos & Edwards murders Zodiac related. This crime seems to me like a two-person job, with the unnecessary relocation of the bodies. Irrespective of my opinion, DNA was in its infancy in the middle 80s, first convicting Timothy Spencer in the USA in 1988. That is effectively 25 years for that clothing and any related material to be comprehensively mishandled and incorrectly stored. I would be shocked if anything of value could be found after 57 years. Sealed envelopes and stamps maybe, but exposed and ill-stored clothing I very much doubt it. I know many believe this crime, along with the Ray Davis murder could very well be early Zodiac, but they are extreme long shots at best. There are far better possibilities to be had by testing the evidence from later crimes and letters into the 70s and 80s.

MR Grumpy

9/28/2020 07:05:52 am

LE followed standard procedures in place at the time of the 5 murders and came up with forensic evidence linking some of the crimes and letters. They were unable to link any of the known POI's or others using this evidence. It seems to make sense that some of the researchers on this site are correct in trying to ID our friend by linking some of his later activity to the crimes. Maybe through his arrogance he may somehow be discovered.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 07:31:40 am

Certainly hope so , Mr.Grumpy .

Just too many folk , in denial , with adopted suspects , a number of whom , have never carried suspicion with law enforcement , beyond the proverbial '' five minutes '' .

In recent times , the false fanning of the '' back to square one '' myth , can be pointed at Terry Poyser , eagerly supported by Tom Voigt .

The Benicia Herald may be a small newspaper , in the Bay area scheme of things , but they are no fools , and smelled a rat within six days of Poyser's outrageous claim of '' 2 envelopes & a secret lab '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 03:32:10 pm

This may be tired old ground to a few , but perhaps it needs to made transparent that the remit of Vallejo P.D.'s Terry Poyser , as is his replacement now , Terry Schillinger , was and still is cold cases within the jurisdiction of the Vallejo P.D.

However , this does NOT include the murders of Faraday & Jensen , at LHR , nor the murder of Ferrin and attempted murder of Mageau , at BRS .

Those two cases were removed from the Vallejo P.D.'s remit in 1973 , following William Grant's successful injunction against law enforcement , for police harassment , on account of the Vallejo P.D.'s botched surveillance operation , carried out on Grant .

Although it appears that the CA DOJ were OK with Poyser , examining the Zodiac case , in his free time , Poyser had no authority vested in him , and was not given any extra information , nor active assistance from the CA DOJ , with respect to the Zodiac case .

Hence Poyser , off his own bat , and without informing the CA DOJ , elected to seek the assistance of Tom Voigt .

Disaster .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 07:53:07 am

With regards to Poyser's claim of '' 2 envelopes & a secret lab.'' :

Sacramento Bee , May 4th 2018 :

'' The Vallejo P.D. are expecting results soon .''

Just 4 days later .

Benicia Herald , May 8th 2018 , having managed to persuade a colleague of Poyser , to make a statement , on account that Poyser could not be found ( hiding in the same store cupboard that he entertained Voigt ( ? ) ) :

'' We do not anticipate developing that information ( Zodiac DNA ) , at any time in the near future . ''

The Benicia Herald 's circulation is less than 1% of the Bay area's '' Big Three '' combined .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 11:03:47 am

Great points made - I think he was very lucky not to get caught , even though he did not kill again , until 1979 .

These claims that he seems to have made , and on quite a regular basis , would involve the '' investment '' of a correspondence which , every time would mean running the risk of getting caught . If only the FBI , in particular , had been on their toes .

When the D B Cooper case was officially closed down , 4 years ago , it emerged that the senior FBI officer in charge , had held a position on that case , ever since Dan Cooper's escapade .

So ,in effect the FBI had appointed a D B Cooper '' Tsar '' , in order to maintain continuity of information , without any breaks .

With the case of the Zodiac Killer , there is sadly , no evidence of a Zodiac Killer '' Tsar '' ever having been appointed , and hence '' continuity '' was probably lost , at times , when perceived bigger cases warranted manpower in another direction .

Shawn link

9/27/2020 02:07:13 pm

This is the 51st anniversary of Zodiac’s attack at LB. RIP Cecilia.

Click my name for her headstone.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 02:26:57 pm

Nice touch , Shawn .

Richard

9/27/2020 02:29:21 pm

Thanks Shawn

9/27/2020 05:15:41 pm

Sept. 27th is for Saint Vincent de Paul, Founder of the Congregation of the Mission (Lazarists), 1660

Congregation of the Mission (Latin: Congregatio Missionis; CM) is a vowed, Roman Catholic society of apostolic life of priests and brothers founded by Vincent de Paul. It is associated with the Vincentian Family, a loose federation of organizations who claim Vincent de Paul as their founder or Patron. They are popularly known as Vincentians, Paules, Lazarites, Lazarists, or Lazarians.

Catholic order of the Lazarians/Paules.

Saint Vincent de Paul Inside the thrift shop. Saint Vincent De Paul, attorney Melvin Belli, and the San Francisco Police waited for the Zodiac Killer. Speaker 8: We were told to, that he would meet us at the Saint Vincent De Paul Society blacks on Mission Street in Daly City.
The Jim Dunbar show was not the same voice they had recalled from the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Berryessa attacks and therefore not the Zodiac. It was believed that Eric Weil, a mental patient was responsible for the hoax call to the Jim Dunbar - Catholic Cross is likely the ultimate source of the Zodiac's symbol.

September 27th date of this - is certain to be for Saint Vincent de Paul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_saints_(Church_of_England)#September

Judith

9/27/2020 06:07:28 pm

So much here. I think it's very likely Zodiac killed both the cop with the 38 and now for the first time this bombing also. Too bad Law Enforcement is not educated enough to properly process evidence from crime scenes. Wouldn't the bomb itself have provided a lot of Clues? It is also very much my opinion that Zodiac did abduct Kathleen Johns.
My suspect hated the effing Cops. Whenever they were called to our home he would take a loaded gun and shove it down into the armchair in which he sat.

9/28/2020 05:32:36 pm

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Benicia+Police+Shooting+Range,+Benicia,+CA+94510/@38.0895929,-122.1502004,15z/data=!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x0:0xd01bd79480cda6f4!2sBlue+Rock+Springs+Golf+Club!8m2!3d38.122518!4d-122.195763!3m4!1s0x80856dda4cddb0ab:0xf9874fc9817cb9b2!8m2!3d38.091417!4d-122.1435578

There are many things pointing towards the Zodiac killer possibly being a policeman.
One is that the police would not be suspected.
Two is this sight at Lake Herman is literally feet from the Benicia Police shooting range.
Three the cops pull over vehicles at night typically towards the back and to the right side.
They are typically pointing their flash lights in your face so you can't see them.
They are continually harassing parked teens to order them to pour out their booze, to bust them for petty things like under age drinking. And to order them to move-on. But this turnout was not a Lover's Lane spot.
It is a back gate to the water station and to the firing range. So these teens were there to meet up with a cop.
Just going with the probabilities. The cops just made a major drug bust. Probably due to a tip-off from David Faraday. Perhaps this is why he was gunned down. The lovers lane area is at the lake recreation area.

9/28/2020 10:29:19 pm

Those are interesting observations BB.

Add to that the fact that Zodiac all but quoted a phrase from the unpublished Blue Rock Springs police report in his first letter.

As Richard pointed out in an older post, Zodiac said "I did not leave the cene of the killing with squealling tires + raceing engine as described in the Vallejo paper". Except, the paper used the term "peeling rubber" not "squealling tires". The term "squealling tires" however, was used in the unpublished Vallejo Police Report. This suggests that Zodiac possibly had insider police information. If not, that is one hell of a coincidence.

Roger

9/29/2020 12:24:37 am

I remember head-butting this problem many times in the past. Just like you and some other people, I find the sequence of testimony and the use of words to be very odd. they at least seem rather too coincidental for my tastes.

It is interesting to consider that Officer Hoffman claimed he was at the Blue Rock Springs parking area just 15 minutes prior to hearing about the shooting on the radio. This is in itself intriguing, as it kind of places him there shortly before the time of the shooting, does it not? Hoffman claimed the parking lot was empty at that time.

Also worth noting is that when the man came up behind with bright lights, shining a flashlight in their eyes, Dea and Michael thought he had to be a cop. Of course, just because he acted like a cop does not make him a cop. But then we look at this in context with the police reports and we find ourselves pausing to ask questions.

5 July 1969. 12:10 am dispatch arrives at Michael Mageau's side, and we get Michael's statement of "A white man drove up in a car, got out, walked up to the car, shined flashlight in and started shooting. Man was older than me, window was down. After stop shooting I got out of car, I tried to get the people to come over but they drove off. After finally 10 minutes the policeman came."

5th July 69 7:55 PM Crime Classification Report. Witness statement from George R. Bryant, 22. George told the reporting officer (Lynch) about events of the 4th July at 11:30pm. "George states that approximately midnight he heard what appeared to be a gunshot.
This was much louder than any of the firecrackers. A short time later
be heard what appeared to be another gunshot. After another short pause he heard rapid fire of what appeared to be gunshots. He then heard a car take off at super speed and it burned rubber and was squealing its tires as it sped along the road. George not sure of its direction of travel. George states that he didn't check as it was the Fourth of July and thought it was just someone celebrating."

6th July 1969 Vallejo Times-Herald reported that George Bryant lived just 800 feet from the parking lot at Blue Rock Springs and recalled the firecrackers and gunshots that night. As the murderer's vehicle left the scene, George Bryant described "the car take off at a high rate of speed, peeling rubber and cutting corners. He wasn't sure, but he thought it was headed to the freeway".

4 August, 1969. The Zodiac sends a letter postmarked: San Francisco, Calif. to San Francisco Examiner: "The boy was origionaly sitting in the front seat when I began fireing. When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time, thus spoiling my aim. He ended up on the back seat then the floor in back thashing out very violently with his legs; that's how I shot him in the knee. I did not leave the cene of the killing with squealing tires + raceing engine as described in he Vallejo paper. I drove away quite slowly so as not to draw attention to my car".

As far as I can tell the contents of this letter were never published in any newspapers! So only the killer could have known the details mentioned in that letter, or a journalist. Dave Peterson worked for Vallejo-Times at that time.

19 August, 1969 Vallejo Times-Herald Dave Peterson writes an article based on testimony from witness Michael Mageau. Mageau described how he half-leaped, was half-knocked onto the back floor of the car. His legs thrashed out, partly from the shock of the wounds and partly from his efforts to evade or to ward off the slugs with his own limbs. When the killer stopped firing after the first fusillade Mageau partly boosted himself up on the rear seat. 'He started firing again,' Mageau said, and he lashed out with his legs again. He got his first look at the slayer when he was walking away and was partly illuminated by his own headlights. Surprisingly, 'he walked slowly and with his head down,' Mageau said. He was of stocky build and short, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches, weighing about 160 pounds, Mageau said. His face was full, he was bareheaded and had 'wavy or curly light brown hair' and looks about 25 to 30 years old. He wore a blue shirt or sweater. The gunman uttered not a single word at any time, Mageau said. And Mrs. Ferrin gave no indication she knew him, he added. She could voice only a 'moan' after the withering attack. The slayer drove away rapidly, making some gravel fly, Mageau said, but 'he didn't really gun it or burn rubber.'

So does this make George Bryant or a Vallejo police office, or a Vallejo reporter the Zodiac?

Like you Mo, I find this intriguing and suspicious. The grammatical style appears to have originated from George Bryant, but how did the Zodiac latch on to those same words unless he was a proverbial "fly on the wall" the whole time? It does seem too big to be a coincidence to me, and wonder if it could in fact represent a slip up on the part of the Zodiac. There is something about this that just smells "off" to me.

Roger

9/29/2020 12:31:15 am

Please ignore this paragraph in my post above, I meant to remove it prior to posting but forgot. "As far as I can tell the contents of this letter were never published in any newspapers! So only the killer could have known the details mentioned in that letter, or a journalist. Dave Peterson worked for Vallejo-Times at that time."

Roger

9/29/2020 12:40:33 am

The repeated words "thrashing out" are also VERY interesting if we consider them in the context of the timeline above. I have long felt there could be something to these interesting repeats of language use from those who supposedly should have never heard those exact words before. It does in fact seem just a tad incriminating.

Richard

9/29/2020 12:44:41 am

Yes, an extremely lucky choice of words yet to be adequately explained, unless we employ the famous "coincidence" angle again. "Squealing tires" is not necessarily proof of inside knowledge (a police officer) but it's certainly worth looking for other correlations between police reports and Zodiac letters.

Richard link

9/29/2020 01:05:29 am

What about the use of " girl was wearing paterned slacks" in the July 31st 1969 Chronicle letter, with page 2 of the BRS police report describing her clothing as "Slack Dress".
https://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR2.html

Roger

9/29/2020 01:43:33 am

The misspelling of "untill" in the police report is yet another. Again, just another one of those massive coincidences? The Zodiac case is plagued by things that would be considered highly incriminating in any other case, but for some reason multiple coincidences seem to gravitate towards the Zodiac case.

Roger

9/29/2020 06:50:16 pm

A friend has told me I am reading far too much into these coincidences and I think I must agree. We are forgetting that the case did not only appear in newspapers and police reports. It was also broadcast widely and prominently for many days on radio stations and TV news, obviously with interviews from witnesses like George Bryant. It occurs to me that all of this dramatic language probably stemmed from George, who liked to use descriptive and popular terms like "high speed", "super speed", "peeling rubber", squealing tires", "racing engine", "cutting corners", "heading for the freeway" etc. He was clearly hyped up on Adrenalin over the incident so close to his home, and like many people from the day, George had probably grown up on a diet of TV cop shows. I guess this still doesn't fully resolve the repeated words "thrash" or the misspelled word "untill". I guess a lot of people mispell the word until, so that in itself is not very incriminating. Was Mageau interviewed by TV and radio after the event? I am sure the evidence of any such interviews would be long lost, and so we are left with only the printed media for our consideration. It does seem clear to me now that we are probably taking things out of context because we do not have the benefit of hindsight. In other words we are not seeing the "full picture" because our information sources from the time have become very limited. Any evidence of radio broadcasts and TV news interviews from that time, may have quickly vanished into the ether of the past. Nobody had video recorders and I doubt if many recordings of radio news were ever taken. I think the cops and reporters were simply picking up on the colorful descriptions being offered to them by George Bryant and were repeating them ad hoc... and that included the Zodiac in his communications. I am sure the Zodiac would have loved the dramatic use of words and simply repeated them. I now think most of these coincidences are explainable.

Mr Grumpy

9/28/2020 07:45:32 pm

Consider the possibility that he was a security guard, wannabe police officer. Makes perfect sense. Private security patrols were common place in the Bay Area at that time. Seems to be a forgotten factor. A lot of high end neighborhoods employed the use of private patrol companies. One of their favorite pastimes was observing parking spots used by young lovers. This is not idle speculation. It fits perfectly with the Riverside activity also.

Richard

9/29/2020 12:52:13 am

Certainly wouldn't be the first time MG. The person who committed the first two attacks almost certainly had knowledge of those areas. He knew his preferred victim type (based on the first two crimes) and either through his profession (whether a security guard or through a regular commuter route to and from work) knew that these areas were prime locations. The murderer would use "mental mapping" of the area he lived.

Mr Grumpy

9/29/2020 06:24:43 am

Perfect fit Richard. If his regular job was a a security guard he could have attained intimate knowledge of LHR traveling to and from work. Security guards normally worked for a security company hired by different business and would have varied assignments, and would supplement their income by "moonlighting" on their off hours. It would have been commonplace for such a person to moonlight for a company that provided private security patrol. One other thought relating to the murder of CJB. Security guard at library construction would have had unlimited opportunity to observe, and possibly converse with students without arousing suspicion. Another possibility with implications to LHR is it seems that our friend may have been an avid outdoorsman. LHR provides direct access to hunting and fishing areas, providing an additional means of gaining knowledge of the locations along it. Not too far removed from one of the routes to LB also.

9/29/2020 12:51:42 am

Agreed Roger.

It does appear that maybe Zodiac had read both the Vallejo newspaper AND the BRS police report and mixed up them up when he was writing his debut letter.

If indeed the police report had inspired his choice of words (as appears to be), then a cop or journalist makes sense. In addition to Richard Hoffman and Hal Snook, another interesting name with an LE background is Kenneth Lester German.

Roger

9/29/2020 02:04:46 am

Reporters and police officers have told me it would be impossible for anyone in their line of work to be the Zodiac. They tell me that he simply would not have had the time. Yet we find Joe DeAngelo was a serial killer and a cop, who also had a family, and he was not the only one. Gerard John Schaefer Jr., Tore Hedin, John Christie, Christopher Jordan Dorner, David Stephen Middleton, Anthony “Jack” Sully, Norbert Poehlke were all cops. As for newspaper reporters, I can name Vlado Taneski and Johann "Jack" Unterweger off the top of my head. People often say "But he had a family and a career, how would he have found the time?" That is the thing with serial killers, they are extremely cunning and they make the time, and not only that, they seize whatever opportunity arises. It was July 4th, lots of firecrackers going off, many young people are cruising about, and cops/security guards out patrolling. A serial killer would be bound to find a potential victim simply by waiting close to a public park or periodically driving by it.

9/29/2020 10:54:52 am

Lt. Husted’s report stated. A similar call had been placed to Darlene’s home approximately ninety minutes after the shooting at Blue Rock Springs Park. At the time of the investigation, police did not consider these calls to be suspicious, and instead believed that the calls were most likely made by a concerned friend or perhaps even a reporter after news spread that someone named Ferrin had been shot. Darlene’s husband, Dean Ferrin, stated that no one had ever believed that the calls were made by the killer and that police had expressed no interest in the source of these calls. Police reports confirm Dean’s statements. Years later, Darlene’s younger brother Leo stated that he had placed these telephone calls while attempting to find Darlene because he was in search of marijuana and thought she could help him get some.

Darlene was at the park to get some pot for her brother Leo.

The clue here may be - a trail of Marijuana to follow.

Perhaps if Bryan Hartnell was totally honest he would admit that his pick-nick basket had a little pot in it.
But he would have to come forward with that because the blanket has been destroyed. There are too many
lies to uncover in this case. Perhaps like Richard Nixon said. "It's not the crime (that's evil) [sic] it's the cover-up."

Is their anything Marijuana pointing to Paul Stine?

WEED is the translation for the first 4 letters in the Z13 - Using the same two L code that cracked the 408.
Two L's. Also, for cannabis sativa L. they use the letter L as shorthand for code in the pothead community.
Between the Letters K and M in the alphabet. Perhaps the strange circled 8's were 24 or two L's
12th letter of the alphabet and representing the 12 signs of the Zodiac.
The Theban alphabet L. And the two CJB sign offs - looks like the odd Z

Roger

9/29/2020 04:05:00 pm

Never any weed mentioned in the evidence from the scene, and that would have been thorough, (even Bryan's clothes were removed and no doubt taken as evidence at the hospital). The only two mildly incriminating things were condoms and magazines. We can only read into that what we will. So if Bryan had weed he must have either smoked it or thrown it in the lake before or after being stabbed multiple times. I would prefer to stick to the script than create innuendo about victims. I see this all the time on forums - people trying to incriminate the victims of Zodiac in order to explain what happened to them. It is a road that always goes nowhere and succeeds only in making the victims look like they might have deserved what they got. Zodiac was nuts. He did not require a reason relating to weed or marital affairs. Weed at that time could have been purchased in great quantities for next to nothing, if he had wanted it. I doubt the belief that Zodiac was a drug dealer out for petty revenge against those who owed him money. We all know Dea was no saint, and we get weird unsubstantiated stories from Horan about Mageau being dressed in double layers of clothes that night because he intended to engage in a spate of robbery later that night. Neither deserved to die that night. There was no blame on their parts for what happened to them. She and Mageau were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Richard link

9/29/2020 12:32:14 pm

Here's a thread you may be interested in Rubislaw.
http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=832

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 02:46:10 pm

Thanks Richard , but I think I'm struggling to find a match to your reference . Is it the couple in Houston , found dead , in 1990 ?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 03:58:52 pm

The couple in Houston - their throats cut - just terrible .

I tend to think that , if the Zodiac post-Bay area found an urge to kill coming , it was mostly the need to bolster his flagging morale , at a given period in his life .

For , and as the expression in police homicide , he had already '' crossed the line '' - in that there were most things that he was now capable of....but , what would be the '' pay-back '' to him .

I think that in this respect , it was reading or hearing about himself , that gave him the greatest thrill .

So , Joan Webster aside which , I believe was a botched whirlwind romance , if there was a thrill that half-scared him , then I believe it was his evolvement into the act of strangulation - with garrotting to be precise .And this , I think he may have committed on three occasions , between 1979 and 2005 .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 05:52:53 pm

The '' Miller Letter '' that might be loosely linked to this Houston case , Richard .

I remember seeing the letter , about 4 years back . Is there an easy access to view the letter , again ?

( Could have been on the '' Manson '' site - but not certain .)

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 08:42:27 pm

Ah....found the Miller letter , at scaredmonkeys.com

Looks fake , to start with....but a lot there , to examine .

Worth a look .

9/29/2020 05:50:30 pm

The theme of water plays prominent in both the Zodiac and with Sir William Schwenck Gilbert's Mikado. Gilbert died of a heart attack while attempting to rescue a young woman to whom he was giving a swimming lesson in the lake at his home. The Water and killing is an ancient theme. Warriors threw their swords in the lake. The people of India send out their pyres on the river Ganges. As the Vikings did their floating bonfires over lakes. This Water connection is not obvious with his killing of Paul Stine. Not only that that is different about the Stine Murder. But the water aspect could say that there is a need for cleansing of himself psychologically. Is that saying he felt bad for those killings? Is he washing away his sin?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 06:07:05 pm

Interesting with William Gilbert , BB , whom I have been looking at again , recently , with his active involvement , as both a writer and actor , in Pantomimes .

I think the Zodiac felt bad about Darlene Ferrin and Joan Webster . I believe he had a great fondness for Darlene , but weren't lovers , as such .

The rest were just '' slaves in paradise '' in his head and , had only served a purpose .

Serial Killers - the ultimate narcissists - capable of sympathy on occasion - but only from their own perspective of well-being .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 07:39:47 pm

The allusion to water did get me thinking about the film '' The Hours '', for which part of the soundtrack is mentioned , in a potential Zodiac Halloween card to Robert Graysmith .

'' The Hours '' is an extraordinary and moving film , with two story lines and three timelines .

'' Water '' in particular , in that this is how the writer Virginia Wolf eventually took her life . It must have been terrible for her husband Leonard , knowing that she was of a disposition , forever trying to do this . Finally succeeding - the constant concern for him , ultimately to no avail .

Then , the story of the Brown family , with a young '' Ritchie '' worrying that he would lose his mother . Then doing so , when his mother finally had to walk away from a decent husband , with whom she nevertheless felt stifled . How many women would have stayed ( ? ) , for the sake of their son , since Laura's husband was Ok - and yet she felt compelled to leave , without telling anyone .

One can't help feeling that '' The Hours '' would have moved the Zodiac . Particularly Ritchie's feeling of helplessness , over his mother's departure ( ? ) .

Something happened to the Zodiac , while he was growing up and believing his life was all set out , which knocked him sideways , and from which he never recovered .

Same with Ted Bundy , and same with Jack Nicholson . Jack Nicholson ended up famous and adored . Ted Bundy - infamous and reviled .

9/30/2020 12:20:11 pm

The killing of Paul Stine seems not to fit.
But is it really the most important?
No water is a give away.
No attack on couples.
No girl killed.
No guilt.

Bang!

He first draws your attention away from him.
He associates the idea of himself being a killer of couples.
He says he is the killer of these kids in the country sides.
He kills in secluded dark places away from prying eyes.
He then kills seemingly some random cab driver in a crowded city.
He must of targeted Stine, and may live or work near by.

Roger

9/30/2020 07:25:05 pm

I think we can gain some insight into the crazy way he was thinking around this time just by looking at the 340 cipher. He seemed to have become so bent on "randomizing" this cipher, by adding an excessive number of symbols, that his method was more akin to madness. The variability factor went through the roof. So, like spinning the wheel of fate, any symbol could come to stand for any letter. He then tinkered with the 340 because he wanted it to look symmetrical and to show 4 quadrants in order to match the paradise/slaves motif from the Halloween card. And as if to prove that same conflict of unity and chaos in one (to reflect a kind of "compartmentalized randomness" if you will) he even added this idea to his own MO. He "randomly" (yet deliberately) shot a taxi cab driver in cold blood on a San Francisco street. He was just acting on the impulse of his ideas and we find a reflection of those same ideas in his communications.

Perhaps this was his way of saying nothing is for certain and anything or anyone could be "next". Death by bus, by bomb, by gun, by knife, by rope, kids, young women, men, anyone, you guess! Life or death for him was like the toss of a dice. I think this will be the only "solution" that will ever come out of the 340 cipher. He was simply reflecting on his own impulses and "clewing us in" to a dramatic change in his MO.

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