ZODIAC KILLER ROUNDTABLE

9/13/2018

Zodiac researchers Michael Morford, David Oranchak and Michael Butterfield sat down with House of Mystery Radio - KKNW Seattle to produce a four part roundtable discussion about the 'unholy trail' of the Zodiac Killer. Each podcast, presented on the Youtube platform, is split into four 50 plus minute segments.

Part One - Zodiac Killer Roundtable

Part Two - Zodiac Ciphers

Part Three - Zodiac Killer Letters

Part Four - Cheri Jo Bates

70 Comments

Karen_C

9/13/2018 10:49:25 pm

TLDW ;-)

Rubislaw 32 link

9/14/2018 10:26:43 am

Without meaning to be mischievous,it has occurred to me,more and more,that.....

.....anything of significance,or that had significant air time,in the Hearst Corporation's History Channel series,has no actual relevance to the real case of The Zodiac Killer.

So,Sullivan and Kane,as suspects,and Bates and Lass,as victims,for example....are actually ''non-entities''.

There must have been some consultation,between real law enforcement,and the program makers [?].....with an agreement,perhaps,of ''no go'' areas of the real case.

Could we take it,perhaps,that therefore,the Zodiac is already known,''not'' to have murdered Cheri Jo....but may well still have been,a self-elected extortionist,to that case [?].

Rubislaw 32 link

9/14/2018 12:05:46 pm

Oh....I see that,it's just been announced that there will not be a second series of ''Hunt for the Zodiac Killer''.

I know,Richard,that you called it,diplomatically,''A Docu-drama''.

It gives me a chance,now,to investigate the real relationship of Hearst employee,Kevin Fagan,and his editor.

Perhaps it augers well,for the real case [?].

The Hearst Corporation been told to ''Stay clear'' [?].

No more ''Dream team'' and ''Carmel''

The embodiment of a nightmare.

9/14/2018 02:20:47 pm

America with the "Patriot Act," after the 911 false op.. Going to war in Iraq - which had nothing to do with the 911 false op. Our right wing rulers ever since have put us "in our place" - we now have a police state that has been oppressing the "land of the free and the home of the brave." Only three cops are arrested each day. It should be ten times that as the stats show that cops are at least that much more corrupt than the average person. But, the Police lobby has smashed the need for I.A.. As, a consequence of there not being any internal affairs to police the cops. They are able to get away with crimes ten times easier than the average criminal.

The "CODE OF SILENCE" is the reason why these crimes go unsolved.
From Bucky Stewart to GSK to Stephen Blake Crawford to Granville "Bud" Kelley Jr. of the CJB murder. All, were cops. And, as a result were able to evade justice for their murders for many a year. Hopefully GSK will be sentenced though - But, I think they are waiting for Bud to die so they don't have to hire a public relations firm to handle the flood of bad PR - Riverside would get for letting him get away so long. But, at least they finally put him away for the nine child molestations. I suppose they wanted to convict him for something and hoped nobody would notice how he steered the Bates investigation away from the Zodiac.

Info on him is hard to get so I don't know what has come of him.
He maneuvered himself on to the Bates investigation in 1968.

He lived across the street from Ramona High school in 1966, then moved to La Sierra.

"Kelley was a 30-year department veteran. He served five years in the U.S. Marines, joined the Riverside Police Department in 1960 and was in the detective bureau for 22 years before he retired in 1990. He was one of the investigators who continued work on the 1966 unsolved murder of Cheri Jo Bates. Kelley gave no credence to those who claimed she was an early victim of California's Zodiac Killer serial slayer."

https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Granville-Kelley/171365370

I was unable to find how much time he got or even if he is still alive.
He took a plea. So, there is an agreement some where.

Tom

9/17/2018 06:01:11 am

Not sure what that political rant has to do with the Zodiac. Like all conspiracy theories it has been crafted out of someone's political bias. I have observed this phenomenon since the days of the JFK assassination.

9/18/2018 01:55:42 pm

I rest my case

Tom

9/21/2018 05:35:35 am

Mr Z was raised by a Sasquatch family on Oak Island. He is now buried in the money pit.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/14/2018 04:18:35 pm

Some interesting comments,BB.

One particular phenomenon,that has become apparent,in the last 20 years,is the form of suicide,known as ''Death by Cop''.

Young men,in particular,determined to do away with themselves,seem to be more and more,choosing this option.

One could argue that,there is a perception that cops are increasingly throwing away the rule book,and protocol,on ''challenge'' and arrest [?].

Yes,there does seem to a greater focus,recently,on who murdered Cheri Jo Bates....with a general acceptance that,her perpetrator was not the Zodiac.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 03:29:13 am

Just on the matter of the collection of correspondence,that constitutes the inference of extortion,in the case of the murder of Cheri Jo Bates.

I have touched on this before....but just to be clear.

The Riverside Police,initially handed all of it [...apart from the desk..],to the Fraud Office,of the Post Office.

Why they chose this course of action,and what gave them the right to believe that this was the correct course of action,remains a public mystery.

Ordinarily,and even in those days,if there was any hint of ''extortion'',involved in a serious crime...then the FBI would have been seen,as the agency to contact.

The FBI,subsequently,had to retrieve the collection of correspondence,from the Post Office's Fraud Department.Naturally,by the time that the FBI did secure the letters,there was no hope of retrieving any ''legitimate'' forensic material,from the letters.

Hence,whatever opinions from Handwriting Expert analysis,one could argue that,since the letters would have no telling value,in a court of law,then it would be ''dishonest'' to assign them ''confirmed'' status,with regard to probable Zodiac ownership.Even if they might have given investigating police,clues that we,the public,never found out about.

To focus on the ''Slow Boat to China'' letter,that alerted Paul Avery,to a possible Riverside link,to the Zodiac Case.

Riverside Police claim that ''Phil Sins'',an amateur investigator,was the scribe of that letter.Phil Sins subsequently denied vehemently,that he had written,and sent that letter to Avery,in November 1970.

Then who was responsible,for the ''Slow Boat to China'' letter ?

Clearly,the inference,if not Phil Sins....the Zodiac,himself,attempting to gain extra mileage of terror and mischievousness,out of ''an old trick'',performed before suiting himself,with the relatively new ''Zodiac persona''.

However,there is a third possibility.....and one,of which I am persuaded :

We know that,up to the emergence of the ''Slow Boat to China'' letter,the Riverside Police,had made contact with both Napa and Vallejo Police,over possible links,between the Bates case and the Zodiac case.

And,''this'' at the exclusion of the FBI.

In addition,the Riverside Police had not handed the Bates case correspondence to the FBI,choosing instead,to give it to the Fraud Department of the Post Office.

It does seem likely,now,that the Riverside Police,themselves,were the ''orchestrators'' of the ''Slow Boat to China'' letter,and deliberately alerting Paul Avery,and knowing full well,the public,to the Bates link to the Zodiac case.

Why ?

The ''game'' was up for the Riverside Police.Though secretly consulting with Bay Area police forces,they knew it was only a matter of time,before the FBI would find,that they had been left ''out of the loop''.

The ''Slow Boat to China'' letter was designed to soften the blow,that they,The Riverside Police,had actually acted ''wholly irresponsibly'',from virtually,start to finish.

Why ?

Because,I would suggest.....for the Riverside Police,their ''priority'' was always about,keeping those ''Neo Faschist FBI Guys'',out of their ''Back Yard''.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 05:23:40 am

Here is the letter sent to Paul Avery,in November 1970,shortly after Avery had received the Halloween Card,and sympathy letters,from around the world.

Who wrote the letter ?

a] Phil Sins
b] The Zodiac
c] The Riverside Police
d] A.N.Other

'' Please forward the contents of this letter to the detective in charge of ''The Zodiac Murder Case''.I hope this information will also help you,as we both would like to see this case solved.As for myself,I wish to remain anonymous,and know that you will understand why !

A few years ago in Riverside,California,a young girl was murdered,just about,I believe,on ''Halloween'' evening.I could write a much longer letter,citing similarities between Zodiac's case,and this murder,which occurred in Riverside,but if the police department cannot see said comparisons and similarities between the two cases,then I will take a ''slow boat to China'',even if these crimes were committed by two different people !

I think,after all the facts are studied,regarding both these cases,if the police have not investigated these probabilities,and are not already aware of the ''Riverside Case'',then,even so,perhaps they should look into it.

Letters to newspapers,''similar erratic printing'' - find out more about these two different cases.Give Captain Cross [Riverside] a call on the phone,he knows that ''I do not quit''.

Mr.Avery,I will give you a call in the near future,please look into this case.The Riverside Police have a wealth of information,so does San Francisco,let us hope they are not too proud to work together and,if they already are,let us hope there has been an exchange of information.''.

---------------------

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 09:19:20 am

It would be interesting,Richard,to see if there are any comments or opinions,on this matter,over the ''slow boat to China'' letter.

It just didn't happen,the way Fincher's 2007 portrayed it,with Avery turning up,at Riverside Police Station,having been beaten to his arrival,by Toschi and Armstrong,then stopping Avery,from any further participation.

Toschi and Armstrong,were never involved in this episode.

When Avery received the letter,he phoned Captain Cross immediately....who,in effect,welcomed Avery to visit.Captain Cross claimed that this same letter writer [..identity supposedly unknown...],had written a number of letters to Cross,and from various locations.

Where are ''those letters'',now....and where is the ''slow boat to China'' letter ? Of course,they ought to be,in the hands of the FBI,categorised under ''Archive Extortion''.

My overview is,that the underlining inference is,that had the FBI,with all its resources,been given access to the Bates correspondences,first hand.....then it would have improved the chances of stopping Zodiac in his tracks,and even may have improved,by elimination process,the chances of finding the killer of Cheri Jo Bates.

We will never know,now.....but I would suggest that the inference is,that the seeming prejudicial behaviour of the Riverside Police,towards the FBI.....harmed both the Zodiac case.....and that of Cheri Jo Bates.

And,it appears apparent,from the FBI files,that they,the FBI,feel that way,about the case of the Zodiac.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 09:44:37 am

.....it does appear that the Riverside Police ''reached out'' to Avery,using Avery as a means,to put the Bates-Zodiac link into the public domain,and,even knowing that they,the Riverside Police,had messed up,could put pressure on the CA JOJ,to ''put a lid'',on any suspected infighting between various law enforcement agencies.

And,it worked......much to the annoyance of the FBI,who were supposed to have been awarded jurisdiction,by the CA DOJ,on the whole Zodiac case.

9/15/2018 11:21:08 am

Rubislaw 32
The Hearst Corporation's History Channel series... Is this true? Are they trying to influence the direction of the investigation?
The Hearst Corporation's been told to ''Stay clear''
Is this why there is not going to be a second season?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 12:34:30 pm

Yes BB,it is true that the History Channel series,was the idea of The Hearst Corporation....who,I would be confident to suggest,made the series ''a reality'',with the assistance of their financial and artistic partners,The Disney Corporation.

The Hearst Corporation,as has been observed,required a ''fillip'' program,to boost viewership,of one of their ''flagship'' programs,''The Curse of Oak Island''.But,whatever,The Hearst Corporation made ''The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer'',for financial gain.

The opportunity arose.....they consulted with official Law Enforcement......and made the series,given certain ''criteria'' of boundaries.....which,were in their interests,to adhere to.

Whether The Hearst Corporation have actually been told to ''Stay clear'',one cannot be certain.But it appears likely,and on balance,one has to wonder,if they,The Hearst Corporation,really had any more to offer the viewer,without upsetting official Law Enforcement.

Hopefully good portents,for the real case....and no doubt,The Hearst Corporation see it as ''financial sense'',to hold their horses,for now,and on their ''best behaviour''....with possibly greater rewards,to be had,in the future.

9/15/2018 01:44:18 pm

fox guarding the hen house?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/15/2018 01:56:00 pm

Undoubtedly,BB.

In a way,one feels sorry for those individuals,connected to Zodiac websites,that were prepared to accept the ''King's Shilling'',for participating,or consulting over such tripe,as was served up,in the ''only'' series [?].

Only remembered for selling their souls to the devil.while ''Bereaved of victims'' continue to wait,for information on their lost loved ones.

And,Justice.

Judith

9/15/2018 09:31:38 pm

What about the rumor that the History Channel had discovered DNA on the pants of Cheri Jo Bates ? Where did that go?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/16/2018 04:35:47 am

It was always ''pretend'' sleuthing,Judith.

The odd real prop,the odd ex-real person,but ''pretend'',in the main.

Some nice landscapes,and some admiration at Disney's ability to create fantasy.

But that was it,really.

Judith

9/16/2018 08:27:46 am

What a colossal waste of time then.
They all looked like Keystone Cops.
They did not even investigate the confirmed crimes. It should have been entitled "hunt for the suspected Crimes of the Zodiac Killer" I watched the whole thing like the sucker that I am. The random digging up dirt, in the hopes of finding evidence, with no true Direction or strategy. Reminds me of when we were little children playing outside. Shameful in fact given that we are trying to discover who killed many many innocent people here.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/16/2018 08:42:04 am

'' They did not even investigate the confirmed crimes ''

That,Judith,pretty much puts it in a nutshell.

Just skirting around the periphery,as far as could be seen.

On reflection,it is so apparent that the program makers,did not want to ''upset the apple cart'' [?].

What I do find slightly disturbing is,that The Hearst Corporation,in its determination to make the series,clearly extracted some information out of Law Enforcement,that we,the public,and the bereaved,in particular.....have not been privy to.

And,that will give them,The Hearst Corporation,advantages over their rivals,when or if,an arrest is made,related to the Zodiac case.

9/16/2018 08:50:33 am

Do not go gentle into that good night

Rubislaw 32 link

9/16/2018 01:33:06 pm

''The 2002 Scandal'' has been an expression used to describe work carried out to clear Zodiac suspects,at the behest of George W.Bush,in 2002.

A new expression has just appeared : '' Fake DNA Exclusion ''

Impressively technical [?].

Rubislaw 32 link

9/16/2018 04:03:10 pm

Disagreements over the specific DNA sources aside,there does seem to be denial over the official testing,that took place at the official Laboratory,at Quantico,under supervision of senior FBI staff,in the service of requests from the CA DOJ,who held legal ownership of the Zodiac case.

May I venture to say,that much of the ''Squabbling'' that seems to be going on,at a larger site,focuses on a loose agreement,between Primetime TV,and an,at the time [2002],underfunded and understaffed SFPD Lab.

From an archive newspaper report,I see that Primetime TV,actually went out,and interviewed San Francisco resident,Mr.X,to ask him about his suspect status,given that New Jersey man,''Mike Rodelli''was accusing him,of being the Zodiac Killer.

Mr.X said that Mr.Rodelli's theory was ''insane'',and that he would be happy to provide a DNA sample to the SFPD Lab.

Though one would not wish to caste too many aspersions on SFPD crime fighting facilities.....it does seem,compared to Quantico,a bit ''Toytown'' [?].

Judith

9/16/2018 08:15:18 pm

Do you happen to know which of the classic suspects then, have their DNA in possession of law enforcement? Did I read that they lost Richard Gaikowski's DNA profile? how is that possible? And how difficult would it be for law enforcement to obtain a DNA sample from Ted Kaczynski? any major suspects who it is impossible to get DNA from at this point? At least by a familial match?
I thought Quantico was rivaled only next to Scotland Yard. Thanks

Rubislaw 32 link

9/17/2018 03:23:17 am

As far as I am aware,Judith,''Dicky'' Gyke,''Dodgy'' Larry Kane,Ted K and ''Uncle Tom Cobly'' are not,nor have ever been official suspects...nor,indeed,persons of interest to official Law Enforcement.

Mr.X was a suspect,as one who ''might'' have colluded in the Paul Stine murder.Mr.X was officially cleared in 2002.But was never suspected of being Stine's actual executioner.

Though Ted K's geographic locations,at various times,can appear persuading,it seems that LE have,and have had,every opportunity,and at any time they wish,to put Ted K under the microscope,for Zodiac's serious crimes.

It does seem to me,that the GSK arrest ''is'' a big wake up call,in the fight against crime.But,investigation by familial tracking has overtaken the laws on personal and human rights.

Sadly,the GSK case,could be a ''landmark'',representing trouble ahead for law courts and ''safe'' convictions,as well as law makers,who are going to have to become more savvy on ''Brave New World'' science and technology.

Quantico,for its scale and breadth of operation,is probably the best crime fighting facility,in the world.

But DNA technology is simply racing ahead,and even the best facilities,have to sometimes wait,until they feel it the right time,to replace technological ''tools'' to deal with the advancements.

Currently,I believe that ''Gartcosh'' in Scotland is the most advanced,to deal with current DNA advancements.But these matters could keep changing,every ten years,or so.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/17/2018 05:25:24 am

.....sorry,to answer your first question,Judith.

It seems to be universal knowledge,that Arthur Leigh Allen was a prime suspect.I am aware that LE still hold brain tissue,belonging to Allen,if they feel the need to go back,on him.

William Grant,was legally,''not'' supposed to be a prime suspect....but they tested his DNA,anyway.

I believe that Fred Manalli was also,at one time anyway,a prime suspect.

Mr.X was suspected of colluding with the Zodiac,in Paul Stine's murder...and Don Cheney was an ''accuser'' of Arthur Leigh Allen,making him an official suspect,ls also.

All of the above,have been officially cleared.

It seems that there are many more Zodiac suspects,and those suspected of colluding with the Zodiac.....of which,we the public,have just never heard about.

Of course,Judith,you probably realise that you,yourself,is or have been,a technical suspect,since you have accused Peter,of being the Zodiac [?].

An ''exclusive club'',along with the likes of Mike Rodelli,Don and Betty Harden....and,me.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/17/2018 05:43:49 am

.....oh...and ''Cheri Jo Betts''....the last I heard,her suspect is still encamped on the Mexico border,debating his next move.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/17/2018 08:29:47 am

If anyone is wondering,I have not been granted permission,to call the lady,above,by her real name.

So,I started calling her ''Global Moderator'',on account of a chosen title,by her,to use at a particular Zodiac website.

However,her title ''Global Moderator'',was confusing people with ''The Secretary General of the United Nations'',and her title was taken away,from her.

So,I am at a loss,to know,what to call her.

Judith

9/17/2018 10:40:38 am

Given I was 10 years old and still living at home with my parents in Sacramento Dec 1968 I am not worried about being a suspect. I was Peter Plante's victim.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/17/2018 01:16:33 pm

Me neither,Judith.

It's a ''technical'' status,which means that investigating police aren't allowed to exclude you,from their investigations.

I understand that one of the teenage witnesses to the Stine murder is a technical suspect.

There's a song by Blondie,called ''I'm touched by your presence,dear''.Ironically appropriate now,in that it is an example of how far DNA science has progressed.A ''garotting'' or shooting,may show signs of the perpetrator's DNA,on the skin cells of the victim.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 02:35:03 am

Paul Avery wrote an article in the SF Chronicle,October 22nd 1969,entitled : '' The Search for Zodiac's Four Murder Weapons''.

Avery stated that detectives had come to the conclusion that Zodiac had held an arsenal of four different weapons,for what we now know as the four Bay Area attacks.

On brief description :

LHR : A .22 caliber pistol,assumed automatic.

BRS : A 9 mm pistol,assumed automatic

Presidio Heights : Another 9 mm pistol,assumed automatic

Possible makes of the 9mm : Luger,Astra 600,P-38,Mauser

For Berryessa : A 6-8 inch kitchen knife

But....we subsequently know,through inferences made in the Autopsy reports,for Berryessa,that Zodiac employed a double-edged knife,which indicated a sword bayonet.

This contradiction aside,it does present the possibility,that Zodiac had,to an extent,elected on a quantity of attacks,based on separate weapons,in his possession.

And,with every intention of,disposing of a weapon,as soon as it had served its purpose.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 02:41:49 am

....in addition,and if of any real significance,the gun that Zodiac took to Lake Berryessa,was the one remaining gun,in his possession,which he subsequently used on Paul Stine,two weeks later.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 02:54:31 am

In addition,if Zodiac did opt for an additional ''8th victim'',between early November 1969,and late December 1969....then,on the basis of Zodiac disposing of weapons,after attacks......it increases the chances of ''that'' eighth victim,being subjected to strangulation,blunt force trauma,or another knife.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 02:57:00 am

''Unhappiness'' is being ''without'' a warm gun [?].

Judith

9/18/2018 07:00:10 am

My suspect coveted all guns and vehicles. Nothing was disposed of
as of 1978 when we were married. There were events which did occur after we were married. One being the last 4 days of our marriage in January 1999. I reported it immediately after I escaped with our two small youngest children. He deteriorated up at Lake Shasta. He wore guns and knives on his person and held them on me in front of the kids. One day he marched us to a place in the woods where there was a large mound of dirt. He claimed that it looked like a grave. That it looked like two people were buried in there. I told the Sherrifs from the Hotel room along the Hiway we stopped at that night. Wrote and called again to law enforcement. Signed an affidavit in the divorce spelling it out. Put it in my book. Nobody did a thing about it. They said they went out to the spot and couldn't find anything. No one asked me to go along and show them where. They never even went to talk to Peter about holding weapons on me. My word against his.
The little 5 year old boy that witnessed this, that horrible weekend, just submitted his DNA to ancestry.com and we are waiting for the results which will then be submitted to GEDmatch. I am very proud of him.
Suspect? I'm Judy Plante.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 08:17:31 am

Truly shocking recollections,from you,Judith,and I'm sure everyone feels sympathy,for what you had to go through.Not least the extra vulnerability,of your need to protect your children.

If the Law don't hang their heads in shame....well,there literally is no justice.

It seems to me that,by late October 1969,the FBI had been ''parachuted'' into the Zodiac case,not even three months.But it already seems apparent that parallel relationships were developing,between the CA DOJ and the FBI...and the ''regular'' one,between the CA DOJ and their provincial and city police forces.

The contradiction over the ''knife'' used at Berryessa,could represent one anomaly,immediately.

I have read that,naturally,the CA DOJ wanted the new arrangement to work out.But,what evidence of efforts made,by the CA DOJ,for this to come about [?].It seems that the CA DOJ had told the Californian police forces,to ''just carry on investigating as normal''.

It certainly seems as if certain information was ''sidelined'',sometimes,with some agencies only finding things out,at a later date....or simply kept in the dark.

Earlier in this comments section,I have highlighted a likely scenario,with regard to information,that was likely to have been held back from both,the FBI and the ''bosses'',the CA DOJ.

Suddenly,for the CA DOJ,it was the ''minions'' who were in information ''anarchy'' !!

But,on reflection,what did the CA DOJ really expect [?].These were extraordinary times,domestically,for California,as well as the USA as a whole.Organisations like the FBI,were creating fear,and it is unsurprising perhaps,that the regular police,in the main,did not take too kindly to organisations,like the FBI,simply ''parachuting in'',and taking over.

Sadly,cases like the case of the Zodiac,suffered as a result.

tom

9/18/2018 07:54:28 pm

Thank you for the very cogent remarks. Your post makes much more sense than the political bias evident in the conspiracy theory posted above. Inter agency jealousy and resentment may have inhibited the progress of the investigation. I am starting to catch on.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 11:32:03 pm

Thanks Tom.Getting to grips with the history of the case,and its historical context,can reap a lot more understanding.

It was a high profile case,that went wrong,and we should try and understand why.

Still hopeful that it can be pulled from the fire,though.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 08:39:16 am

We now know that the military,were very supportive,in their efforts to assist the ''cops on the ground'',with the case,as a whole.

The military held solid ''accountability'' records for their servicemen's movements and whereabouts.It would never have been in their interests,if the Zodiac had been found to be a ''rogue soldier'' gone mental.And,if it had turned out,that the Zodiac,was of this description,then the military would have wanted to show the public,that they acted swiftly,to assist bringing this individual,to justice.

Perhaps the mention of ''Wingwalkers'',after Berryessa,might have raised a few eyebrows,with regard to a military link to the Zodiac.

But,a bayonet [?][!].Now,that really would have put the cat among the pigeons.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/18/2018 10:49:49 am

With reference,to the above,I believe that this comes down,to attention to public perception.

''Kitchen Knife'' ? ''Some nutter has just found out that his wife has been unfaithful.''

''Sword Bayonet'' ? ''Crikey...there's a ''Rambo'' on the loose.''

For the authorities,it was about containment of fear.

Judith

9/19/2018 07:04:08 am

Zodiac terrorized the entire area. And yes, particularly back then, the law enforcement agencies did not cooperate with one another. I have trouble believing that this would be a political issue, still today 50 years later. The only political benefit that can be reaped at this point in time is the solving of the case. The Zodiac Killer would be somewhere between 70 and 90 years of age based on different Witnesses and other people's opinions. Life expectancy for males in the United States is somewhere around 78 years of age. The likelihood that the Zodiac Killer is still alive, is very small. The only results which the public will accept would be DNA evidence found on more than one piece of evidence and cross-referenced to various crime scenes. I am still confident that this research is currently being conducted.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/20/2018 01:15:53 pm

It is interesting,that you were actually in the vicinity,Judith,and must have remembered,personally,some of what took place.

I am of a similar age,and was at the epicentre of the start of the Biafran War,for which I have vivid memories.

On the point of likelihood of the Zodiac being alive.....often,statistics can mislead.

I have examined the Social Security Actuarial Life Tables,for 2015.

As a reasonably accurate extrapolation of information,I conclude the following :

A male in the USA,has a 65% chance of living until 75.

A male in the USA,has a 50% chance of living until 80

A male in the USA,has a 35% chance of living until 85

If the Zodiac was as young,and realistically as young as 25,in 1969,he would be 74,now.....and,with about a 66% chance of still being alive.

So,the chances are still better than even,that the Zodiac is still alive.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/19/2018 06:21:37 pm

Just on a matter of general ''chit-chat'',regarding True Crime forum sites :

There is this perception that if the Zodiac is arrested,then there will no longer be a requirement for Zodiac websites.

Well,I've just come across a forum site,that specialises in the GSK,and it is simply ''buzzing'' with activity,and membership of over 15,000 [!].

It sort of makes ''us'' seem like depressives and ''narcoleptics'',in comparison.

Our day will come !

Judith

9/20/2018 07:25:20 pm

Statistics can vary.Do you mean babies born in the 1930s and 40s have a 35% chance of living to 85 or will that be for babies born now? Men who lived during the 1960's frequently smoked cigarettes, some were war veterans, some drank heavily, they aged more quickly than men do now days. Add to that the fact that this person was a serial killer and all the stress which that would incur. You never know though, they did catch D'Angelo didn't they?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/20/2018 07:53:47 pm

I think that Social Security work out the statistics,for their own,government sponsored purposes.Such assessing the total cost of State pensions,in a year,and how that cost might change,in future years,based on an incremental age expectation....etc. etc.

As you have intimated,Judith,the figures are not ''hard and fast'',but a reasonable guide,nevertheless.

I think that we can say,within reasonable accuracy,that even if the Zodiac was 30 years old,in 1969....then his chances of being alive now,are 50:50.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/20/2018 08:30:16 pm

I would say that we are around the ''50:50 Cusp'',now.....and that those chances of convicting an ''Alive Zodiac'',are going to start nosediving,in the next few years.

This is what I took the opportunity,to point out to a ''DOJ'',about 9 months ago.OK,perhaps stating the ''obvious'',but given the opportunity,I wasn't going to miss the chance.

I sited the example of 13 year old Genette Tate,who disappeared in 1978,and has always been thought to have been a victim of convicted ''animal'',Robert Black.

In 2016,after a lengthy police investigation,a 500 page report was handed over to public prosecutors,indicating that Black,was responsible for Genette's disappearance and murder.

Lo and behold,at that point,Black went and died,in prison.

If,as I believe,LE already know the identity of the Zodiac,and he is still alive,the ''ticking time bomb'' scenario exists.

And,if public prosecutors ''don't get their finger out'',he is going to die on them....and,at a later date,they will have to explain this to the public.....or at least,the public will hear about ''a DOJ'' having to explain this to Zodiac's known victims' families.

To state ''The Bleedin' obvious'' : They do not have ''forever''.

Tom

9/21/2018 05:24:32 am

Do you think, Toschi and Armstrong knew, but couldn’t link the suspect to the crimes? I lived in the Bay Area during that time, and that theory came to light several timeas.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 05:47:30 am

I don't believe so,Tom.

At least,from the information,I was getting,out of the SF Chronicle.the ''talk'' in the offices of newspapers,in the early days,was always about Arthur Leigh Allen and William Joseph Grant,as the main suspects.

This is reflected in Robert Graysmith's books.One shouldn't be too hard on Graysmith,for being a ''die hard'' Allen ''fan''.He was actually expressing a general opinion of newsroom gossip.

There are some indications that Toschi was ''sold'' on Allen,but nothing ''concrete'',really.

These detectives closely involved in the case,have always been tied to the terms and conditions of their police pensions....and in some cases,actual allegiance to the ''badge''.So,we will probably never find out the whole truth,from that angle.

But,a ''pool'' of suspects,is more than likely,close to the mark.

Tom

9/21/2018 06:27:39 am

Thanks again. I am pondering your statement that LE knows the identity. It is not rare for LE to know the perpetrator's ID but may not be able to prove it. Some of Toschi's tactics were sometimes considered to be an effort to "smoke" out a POI. If LE does know, hopefully they will announce it. I am running out of years.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 06:26:08 am

Just from a personal perspective,I have been following a ''suspected'' line of inquiry,that goes back to December 2014,and although it would be irresponsible of me,to name all names,does involve James Comey,whom I was ''well versed'' about,before any of the ''Clinton e-mails'' and ''Russian intervention'' talk,started to hit the media agencies.

Nothing is a given,but I believe that suspicions over Zodiac's true identity,have been ''apparent'',for four years,now.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 06:49:29 am

...actual confirmed knowledge of that Zodiac identity,approaching two years ago.

Such,events of history,as the change in leadership of the United States,have a habit of conspiring to throw some off the scent.

I leave clues,by ''reportage'' in some of my posts.

But....hey.....''conviction'' is all.

Judith

9/21/2018 07:11:08 am

Come on man...

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 07:51:13 am

For every one,Judith,it is each to his own.

I am here,at Richard's excellent site,to gain more understanding of the Zodiac....and,if it happens to be the Zodiac,that I believe I know,then that is for me.

There is always more to be gained by sharing information,and swapping ideas.

The notion of the Zodiac being already dead,is certainly feasible,as in the case of Peter.

But,such matters as Poyser and the VPD,simply faffing about,telling ''uncomfortable'' lies,simply ''telegraphs'' an alternative scenario.

I have had such ''moral quandries'' as whether I should approach bereaved of victims...and even ''rat'' on a senior LE individual,for lying to politicians.In addition to watching senior policemen's careers go up in smoke,for no good reason that they know about.

The protection of the truth,can be an ugly business,and no one is ''deserving'' of anything.

''Murder'',like beauty and truth....is deadly.

The only ''light relief'' I sometimes get,is the extraordinary irony of it all.

As the Economist,Keynes,once said :

''In the end,we are all dead.''.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 08:34:04 am

Naturally,we should try to keep this as ''light'' as we are able.

As it happens,I have approached bereaved of victims.I have ratted on a senior LE figure,for lying to politicians....to politicians.And,I have watched senior policemen's careers go up in smoke,under the disgraceful guise,of a political witch-hunt.

All really emanating,or because of,the whims of Departments of Justice.

One really wonders whether ''all will be forgiven'',when or if ''Justice'' is finally served [?].

Tom

9/21/2018 10:13:30 am

Counter culture revolution came to the forefront during the period of Mr Z’s reign of terror. It ssems there may be a connection to one side or the other. Gettiing warm?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 10:41:52 am

Now,it would be very mischievous,of me to to come close to answering that question,Tom....but,I do admire your spirit.

This assumes,of course,that I know what I am talking about [!].

I didn't initially approach a Federal agency [...not the FBI...],with a flat out solution to the case of the Zodiac case.In fact it was an apology,for someone working for me,attempting to bribe one their employees.

So,one can imagine that,in itself,it caused a ''bit of a stir'' [?].

Not least embarrassment,on account of my own investigation of a Federal Law Enforcement agency.

This really comes down to the core and underlying motive of Zodiac,which is probably a bit more ''basic'',than most might imagine.

That's all,for now.

Tom

9/21/2018 12:14:47 pm

Persons only guilty of being perceived to be members of the establishment, “had to die”.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 01:08:16 pm

I'll offer up one final cryptic clue,if anyone wishes to cogitate...or indeed,take me seriously.

Zodiac's core motive manifested itself,firstly,in the Desk Top poem....and then again,at LHR.

But,Zodiac's core motive,had recruited itself,a long time,before this.

Judith

9/21/2018 01:13:17 pm

NORCAL RAPIST just identified by Sacramento based on DNA through GEDmatch Roy Charles Waller

Rubislaw 32 link

9/21/2018 03:37:09 pm

This is just such good news,Judith.I can already hear the cheering,at the GSK forum site.

And,it makes the Zodiac case,even more conspicuous,by its absence of an arrest.

Now,what on earth are they up to,behind DOJ's doors [?].

Judith

9/21/2018 05:49:47 pm

All this energy seems to be coming out of Sacramento County, as opposed to the DOJ. They have an expert, an older woman who is doing the genealogy research. With the rapists, however, they have left their semen over and over at the crime scenes. And as we know, the Zodiac Killer was not a rapist. She sorts down the potential suspects from a family tree of identified DNA. Then they have the California DMV pull up all the licenses of the suspects. She crossed referenced by photographs this time but prior mentioned being able to determine eye color Etc from the suspect's DNA. Then the cops stake the suspect out and gather his own DNA from a door handle or a discarded cup. Bingo! All you criminals out there who thought you got away with your behavior think again.
For the zodiac they will likely have multiple profiles with nothing else to match it against like semen.They will have to find DNA profiles which match several pieces of evidence to the exclusion of others. They may have to run multiple profiles before they can even begin to determine which one belongs to the Zodiac. Prior to doing any of this genealogical research, if zodiac is dead, there will be no way to easily obtain a fresh life DNA sample from him. It will take much longer to find out who the Zodiac Killer is through his DNA but I have confidence that they will.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/22/2018 06:06:16 am

Thanks for all the information.It gives us a better idea of what was involved,in bringing this man,into custody.

A Benicia resident [?].That's interesting.

I haven't seen much ''stirring'',on the large Zodiac sites [?].

I wonder if the words ''genealogy research'' are carrying a ''cautionary'' tag,now.Not that most don't doubt that LE have the right guy....but where is this going to lead,in terms of prosecution,seems to becoming a bit of an unknown [?].

Maybe,''policy'' now,is just to get this villains ''off the street'',and bag a few ''brownie points'' with the public,that high profile cold cases,are being tackled....and successfully [?].

My feelings are that LE did actually do some genealogical research on Zodiac's identity....but they did it entirely ''legit'',on account of a criminal case,that involved the victim,in that case.

And,they ''went'' to Texas,to retrieve it.

If anyone is completely serious about assisting me,to find that specific information....and has comprehensive records to Texan newspaper archives,then contact Richard,please.

In return,information,on the basis of confidentiality.

Thanks.

Who cares anyway?

9/22/2018 04:34:42 pm

Any gatherings of amateur "X-Spurts" on the Zodiac case becomes an immediate oxymoron and provides nothing more than a lesson in frivolity and futility. I note that not one of the X-Spurts are members of law enforcement. I also laughed at the complaint left by someone on YouTube about the bias shown against conspiracy theorists. The poster believes the lack of faith in conspiracy theorists made the doco "boring". Really? So is "interest", "gratification" and "entertainment value" of more importance to this person than resolution? Seems so.

Looking at internet traffic relating to the Zodiac case, we can see that many others share that general opinion.

This case can never be solved in the public domain because there are so many competing personalities who seem to have a vested interest in maintaining the mystery angle of the case. It has become its own Bermuda Triangle or Area 51. Some draw funny little radian lines from the top of Mt. Diablo or overlay maps with skeletons in order to trace the boundaries of this new "Bermuda Triangle". All we can expect from the public domain in future are more of these kinds of boring docos from the X-Spurts, opposed by the "trivial pursuits" of the conspiracy nutters. The nutters want the Zodiac case to be as complex and extraordinary as a the Jason Bourne franchise. They are determined to package and serialize the case as a CIA mind experiment gone wrong with obscure links to the JFK assassination and the faked moon landing and of course the Satanists and Scientology and all manner of other sinister and shadowy stuff. Providing it is interesting and entertaining, they really care little about a resolution to the actual case. No, they would prefer it goes on forever as an ever expanding mystery without end.

At the other extreme we have a closeted panel of so-called X-Spurts re-telling us their tired old academic opinions, over and over again.

In such an environment of opposing extremes in the public domain, there can be no resolution.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/22/2018 05:00:45 pm

To ''Who cares anyway'' :

In the words of regular contributor,Judith :

Why are you here ?

Tom

9/22/2018 05:28:40 pm

Exactly! To ''Who cares anyway'' : This statement is the ultimate hypocrisy. You rant on about how pointless everything is. Why are you bothering to waist your time with us crazies. You don't make sense. this sort of thing I have seen this somewhere before.

Who cares anyway?

9/22/2018 07:35:53 pm

Seriously you guys!! My comments were aimed at the three videos and had nothing to do with what the majority of you guys were posting about. I actually consider you guys to be the good guys. I did not mean any of the contributors on these pages. By X-Spurts I of course meant the people involved in the production of the three videos, but if you want to consider yourselves X-Spurts well that is fine with me! Hahaha!! Well I thought that was clear but evidently not. People are so touchy and get so easily offended, which is another reason why online discussions are basically futile. Tom, I was actually agreeing with the comment you made recently about conspiracy theorists. Sigh, this is another reason why I give up on this case. People misunderstand other poster's meanings and intentions far too easily, then spit the dummy and throw mud, all gang up on you and call you names. Then you get stalked across different boards and forums forever and a day. :(

Rubislaw 32 link

9/22/2018 06:41:46 pm

That's it,Tom.....a sort of fatuous Deja Vu [?].

All dressed up as ''creative writing'',ready for ''Pseuds Corner''.

But actually,more like ''out of tune'' bagpipes,struggling for a recognisable tune.

Who cares anyway?

9/22/2018 07:40:34 pm

What I said above! I accept of course that Rubislaw32 is your real name and you have never played your bagpipes out of tune on this or any other forum. Heheheh! :-)

Karen_C

9/22/2018 07:48:09 pm

I actually find myself in full agreement with Who cares anyway? If anyone outside of law enforcement believes they can solve this case, I think they must be delusional. And that will be the truth of the matter no matter what instrument the various psudos play or how in tune they are. If the case is ever solved (unlikely!) it will be solved by competent law enforcement professionals. Everything in the public domain (online) is just whistling Dixie in the dark. Sure there is reasonable discussion which will never progress any further, but the online community tends to be dominated by a bunch of academic number-crunching eggheads on one hand versus the rag tag conspiracy theorists on the other. Somewhere in the middle sits this and other forums. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I believe it to be the truth.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/22/2018 07:51:24 pm

Well,I admire you for coming back to us.

Perhaps,you might understand,that for us,and here at this site,it is for those whose glasses are half full.....and not half empty.

Regardless.

ZODIAC KILLER ROUNDTABLE

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