ZODIAC CIPHERS
Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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WHEN I HUNG UP THE PHONE

1/15/2016

 
"The man who told police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was in this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cop when he was walking by. When I hung the phone up the damn thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car." Debut of Zodiac Letter: August 4th 1969.
The negro male was supposedly never identified or mentioned in the Blue Rock Springs police report. Was the Zodiac lying about this encounter as many people would argue, or was this a genuine encounter by the Zodiac Killer? Here we will run through some of the arguments.   
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In the police report it stated a call received at 12.40 am by unknown citizen: "I wish to report a double murder. If you will go one mile east on Columbus Parkway to a public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They have been shot by a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year.... Good-bye."

At 12.47 am Mrs Johnson PT&T operator called. The above call was traced to a coin operated telephone at Joe's Union, Tuolumne and Springs Road. The call was traced by Betty Main, whose supervisor would not allow her to give a statement at this time.

The Zodiac Killer called at 12.40 am and the call was traced inside of seven minutes, which is not possible with the technology of 1969. A caller had to be on the line a minimum of 15 minutes for a call to be traced. Although not completely  accurate, this was referenced in the Zodiac (2007) movie, featuring a clip of the Melvin Belli 'call to chat show,' when Belli was instructed "Pacific Telephone says you need to keep him on the line for 15 minutes."

​It is likely the word 'traced' is being used in the loose sense of the word, and they actually 'discovered' the call was made from Springs and Tuolumne. 

The answer may lie in Zodiac's wording at the top of the page where he said "When I hung the phone up the damn thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car".  Betty Main traced the call but was not allowed to give a statement. This could have meant that what the witness had to say contained sensitive material, having been kept under wraps at that particular juncture. If the Zodiac Killer was telling the truth and the phone rang almost immediately after he hung it up, this was not likely a coincidence. Was it possible, that although Zodiac hung up the receiver, the operator didn't and was able to ring back the payphone? This would not identify the specific location of the payphone, but if somebody had picked it up the operator could ask the person on the other end to identify their location, ie; the negro male Zodiac identified as walking by. We know police officers were redirected from the Blue Rock Springs Park to the corner of Springs Road and Tuolumne Street, and it is here the witness to the phone call may have been interviewed. It is equally conceivable that the Zodiac Killer gave the payphone number to the operator when he was patched through to the Vallejo Police Department. Either way, the Springs and Tuolumne payphone was rang back by the operator.
  
​Michael Cole, author of Zodiac Revisited made some interesting points on the Zodiackiller.com forum:
(1) The information from the letter is being given in direct response to a request for additional identity verification. The other information given in the same context appears to be truthful (mostly). Therefore, I believe Z is being honest in the conveyance of this information. 
(2) We know that Z changed his behavior when he made his call to the Napa PD about three months later. Instead of hanging up the phone, he set it down thus avoiding the possibility of a ringback. This behavior modification is consistent with an experienced-based learning regarding the described ringback; not to mention it just sounds like good police procedure to implement a ringback under these circumstances. Therefore, I suspect the ringback did happen as described. Perhaps Nancy will provide some additional insight on this front. I've already asked the question in the other thread.
(3) We know that Mike Mageau described the car as being brown. 
(4) As mentioned previously, Z's statement implies that he knows somebody told police that his car was brown. Although I don't have the reference, this clearly implies that the detail was published somewhere.
Given all of the above, I suspect that Z honestly believed that the described witness was the person who told police about his car. He apparently, quite reasonably, believed that MM could not have ascertained the color of his car. This left the witness as the most probable source. The fact that the witness was never identified seems to imply that he chose not to come forward or that he was unaware of law enforcement's desire to talk to him."        

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The most likely answer is ring-back as Michael Cole suggests, which is how the call was 'traced.' Somebody may have picked up and given the operator the details he had just observed. This was alluded to by Zodiac who stated in the Debut of Zodiac Letter "The man who told police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed". It is likely this information was withheld from the police report - and why Betty Main's statement was not made public. Either, as Michael Cole stated "The fact that the witness was never identified seems to imply that he chose not to come forward or that he was unaware of law enforcement's desire to talk to him", or he was located by responding officers, but requested his anonymity be respected and why this information was kept off the record.

But the fact the location of the payphone was 'traced' seems to implicate third party information, in that ring-back alerted somebody to its location. However, that still leaves the question of whether the negro male was interviewed and was able to give any additional information regarding Zodiac's description, that was 'incorporated' into the police report, or did his description simply tally with Michael Mageau's and was therefore not included. Or did he simply get no viable description of the killer or his vehicle at all. Either way, as Michael Cole stated, the Zodiac Killer would not make the same mistake again in Napa on September 27th 1969.       


Alex
1/15/2016 10:01:48 am

Rich I think I jknow how the operator was able to identify the call bo and ring bk instantly. Here's my observation....

In the phone call that would subsequently occur post this one the police report says that in that incident it went:

Operator asked callr for His call box number.
Caller refused to supply this to operator on request.

Now my idea or theory is He was more than likely asked the same by this first operator and after he asks to be connected to police the Op. replies "Certainy Sir, what number are you callng from, this ino is needed by police Dpt" and Zodiac gives that operator His call box telephone Number.
Starght away, 2 second after hanging up, the damn thing rings and He, Zodiac, knows the call has been returned instantaneously because He has furnish the Operator with His Call Box No.

So, when He dials to speak to David at Napa Sheriffs the operator again asks the same question but Zodiac knows from His previous mistake that giving this operator his call number will be used for immediate call-back and location of call box info.

And so, no trace required if the caller gives you the number they are calling from themselves.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:06:32 am

It's in Berryessa Police Rpt. Operator does ask him the location of and associated Tel. No. He is calling from and caller, the rpt notes, refused to give it to operator.

Knew what the Operator had been able to do with in when He rang Slover and agreed to give the phone box No. to that specific Operator when she asked for it.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:20:16 am

See now here we were perplexed at how this fete was achieved in almost instant call bcack technology by operator, we've been theorising, we've been impying, we've tried to use intellectual thinking to find our scientificly advanced answers for this 'Before it's time' achievement.
Then the operator speaks from the pages within police report Like Yahweh from some bush that burns but doth not consumeith.

"DUMB AND DUMBER, TAKE OFF THE DUMB BLINKERS FOR WHERE YOU SEEK, YEE SHALL NOT FIND....PAIR OF IDIOTS!

AND SO IT CAME TO PASS IN THE YEAR 2016 THAT THEY DISCOVERED HOW SAID AGENCY HAD CAPABILITY TO KNOW CALLER LOCATION EACH TIME THAT CALLER CALLETH!
THEY FU***** ASK CALLER WHERE HE CALLING FROM.

MYSTERY SOLLVETH ITELF, OH DUNCES! LOL.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:35:07 am

It's good to laugh at yourself I find, keeps any ego at responsible level because theres nothing like acknowledging my own brilliance when I fail to see the obvious and simple answer in front of my face due to being too busy running around going "How did they do it? Shouldn't be technologically possible Richard, could they have developed this locator technology at AREA 51 under the black budget Rich, what does one think?"

I'll be over there Rich in my Alcove of embarrassment, repeating "Operator asked the caller for it.....Operator asked caller for it..."

Richard
1/15/2016 10:24:21 am

This is definitely an option, one question though, once they know the payphone number and location, why ring it back, were they hoping the killer would carry on his conversation even after saying goodbye.

Richard
1/15/2016 10:26:53 am

Were they hoping to get him back on the line while police were dispatched.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:55:46 am

"Were they hoping to get him back on the line while police were dispatched. "

Hoping probably yes, expecting to? Probably not. They have no idea who is on that other end and if He is dumb and stupid enough to hear it ring and pick bk up...."Hello?"

I assume they were just hoping for anyone within close enough proximity to hear it ring would be curious enough to pick it up. If they did, the Operator/Slover would without question ask first and straight off the bat..."Did you see who was just at this call box using it...Yes, please give a description of Him and His clothes."

Alex
1/15/2016 10:39:10 am

Well caller called wanting to report a double murder and being kind enough to add He also killed those kids last year,...Gooodddbyeeeee. Then He hung up.

The operator only knows where the call came from on the word of the caller telling Her the Number, she can't know or tell if that call came from the number she was supplied. So, there is only one way to know if it did....ring the number bk.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:43:10 am

And clearly that is why in His next brag effort to Dave Slaight, He ended with "I'm the One that did it" and didn't hang up, but simply set the phone receiver down off the hook which is kinda weird as He has refused this time to tell the operator what the call box number is that He is calling from.

Zodiac probably used the 'Better safe than sorry' and aired on the side of caution for once in not giving the operator any possibility at all to call straight back by refusing to hang up.

Alex
1/15/2016 10:48:28 am

So in one sense Rich, this could hint at possibly answering your question of did the BMA exist near phone booth and of so, did His attention get drawn to Z and His car? Well, Zodiac seems pissed off enough next time He calls to the extent that op. asks for his Tel No. and He point blank refuses to give it to Her. Could He be refusing with a mentality of "Oh no.....not after the last time!"

Alex
1/15/2016 01:31:16 pm

Rich have you seen the only other documentary we never really speak of nor use as a reference point or source material, John Milenka's 'Hunting the Zodiac?"

Well, just on the off chance you have not, worth a watch mate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvnOGTJ54uM

Mike link
1/17/2016 05:17:06 pm

Hey Richard,

It's been a while since I've looked at the thread you're referencing :)

The year after that post, I was able to talk to Nancy Slover and ask her about the ringback scenario. I included a short paragraph about it in the post I wrote when she passed away. That post is here:

http://zodiacrevisited.com/nancy-slover-passes-away/

For ease of reference, let me simply copy it here:

I had the privilege of hearing Nancy speak in 2007 at one of the get-togethers arranged by Tom. She was also kind enough to answer a question I had - I wondered if she could shed some light on the "ringback" scenario described in the killer's letter of August 4, 1969. She explained that, because of the specifics of how calls were routed, it was possible that the ringback happened after her involvement with the call, so she couldn't say for certain one way or the other.

As you can see, the conversation didn't really help in terms of getting to the bottom of what happened. Nonetheless, it was nice to get her input.

Regarding the missing reference from point (4) above, interest in a heavyset person and a brown car was reported in both the Saturday (July 5th) and Sunday editions of the Vallejo Times-Herald. We know the killer read the Sunday version of the paper, because he denied having sped away, as was reported in the same article. The particular sentence of interest regarding the car was:

"The officers are looking for a stocky young white man who was driving a brown car."

I still feel that the ringback scenario very likely did happen.

Richard
1/18/2016 02:35:34 am

Yes Michael, for Zodiac to have hung up and within seconds the payphone began ringing from a completely different unrelated third party is simply not worth considering as an alternative. It is pretty certain it is the police using ringback. I am inclined to take Zodiac at his word and the encounter with a negro male being a genuine one. Some have suggested the idea of Zodiac introducing a witness to his phone call, was to make police run all over town trying to track this man down...extremely unlikely as the census of 1970 depicts. Vallejo had a population of nearly 67,000, of which only 11,000 were negro. The revelation of a white witness at the payphone is far more likely to keep people busy. I understand that the Zodiac was not a guy to take to the local tea party, unless you wanted the crockery broken, but in some instances lying in his letters had no benefit to him and I believe this to be the case on this occasion.

Alex Lewis
1/24/2016 07:31:22 am

Well third party/witnesses at or near the call box for the Slover call is up for debate and it's Zodiac's claim that A BMA was there and His attention was diverted in Z's direction as Call Box Payphone throw out ringing tones.
There must have been witnesses close to the payphone when Dave Slaight speaks to the caller calling "To report a murder.... No, a double Murder" because Slaight acknowledges "Then He said, very calmly, 'I'm the one that did it' and then I heard a clatter and He dropped the phone and let it dangle. I COULD HEAR OICES OR PEOPLE in the background so began shouting "CAN YOU HEAR ME...."

Amusing myself the other day and Z's 'I wanna report a murder.....No, a double murder' imagining Him looing up into space thinking "Hold on, how many people have I killed today..."

Shelli Cullum
2/14/2018 10:34:26 am

Richard, having grown up in Vallejo, this would be the neighborhood where you would see any race. Two blocks from local jail and two blocks from Tennessee st. which would be busy any weekend because of Navy traffic, and surely on July 4th.

Richard
1/24/2016 07:59:26 am

"They are two miles north of Park Headquarters. They were in a white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia."

"If you will go one mile east,.... on Columbus Parkway to a public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They have been shot by a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year.... Good-bye"

Zodiac when speaking to Nancy Slover actually spoke over the top of her when she tried to get additional details from him. There is no way she could have remembered the exact words, with the exact pauses in his voice. I believe that the above version with a brief pause is how Zodiac was meant to be interpreted. Zodiac in a car underestimated the Springs Road east distance, he said 1 mile when it was 2. Easy to do travelling at speed. However walking it is far easier to think the distance is further, especially over rough hilly terrain and therefore not unusual Zodiac overestimated the distance at Lake Berryessa, quoting 2 miles instead of 0.7 miles from the crime scene to Park Headquarters. Now obviously nobody in their right mind, as clearly Zodiac wasn't, would say "They are 0.7 miles north of Park Headquarters. They were in a white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia." He could have said "They are one mile north of Park Headquarters. They were in a white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia." But walking a long way as I said is difficult in awkward terrain, but I believe his overestimation of this distance is indicative of a man who has walked this area before and likely visited Park Headquarters before, rather than just driven.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Lake+Berryessa+Field+Office,+5520+Knoxville+Road,+Napa,+CA+94558,+United+States/Oak+Shores+Day+Use+Area,+5560+Knoxville+Rd,+Napa,+CA+94558/@38.5546979,-122.2402438,2814m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x8084f0909d947b61:0xf5d6e8d17840e008!2m2!1d-122.2289592!2d38.5508675!1m5!1m1!1s0x8084fa459dcb74a3:0x841d5391d30259b7!2m2!1d-122.2343185!2d38.5600176?hl=en

Alex Lewis
2/6/2016 10:46:51 pm

Z: "2 Miles North of Park HQ" = 2/3 of a Mile and

Z: "1 Mile East on Columbus P'way" = Approx. 2 Miles"

Mr Z could just be a very bad judge of distance? Or maybe it was deliberate as to give the impression He did not have familiarity with these places and was simply guessing roughly not having traversed them much.

This is why I've always been dubious when it comes to Z's Presidio Heights rant of "About 3 mins after I left the cab...."

If He judges distance in Miles so badly to over a mile incorrect twice in distances between 1 and 3 miles respectively, then 3 mins is not only looked at with sceptical eyes for time elapsed but also, why does He change here from distance from Cab ie, why not say ..."about 200 - 300 yards from the cab when I was walking down the hill and this cop car pulled up...."

I mean He uses distance over a set terrain as His default twice previous and didn't say, as He could Have, "I want to report a double murder....If you go three minutes east on Columbus Parkway...."
This man looks nothing like the description of the BRS and Berryessa Zodiac either. Fat overweight man at Lake B, pouchy stomach and brown wavy free flowing hair hanging down across forehead. Then FF....

Two weeks thereafter....Strong stocky Thick set male, barrel chested and short light coloured hair in crew cut and receding hairline/widows peak aged 35 to 45.

Both Lake B and PH Zodiac's were wearing the exact same clothing at the two scenes respectively and yet, they dress identical but the descriptions???
If we were asked without knowledge of this case to listen to two descriptions given two weeks apart and render an opinion I suspect most would settle on "Two different males wearing the 'Kill Kit outfit' as a means to further cause confusion.

Alex Lewis
2/6/2016 10:54:06 pm

Then again though Rich, The first thing He reports to Dave Slaight is "I wanna report a murder....No, A Double murder."

So before He can remember or get an accurate distance He doesn't know how many victims there are...."I wanna report a murder.....Wait, no I don't that's wrong. Sorry Start again......I wanna report a.....(Thinking "How many people have I killed today??") DOUBLE Murder.

After all that Mr Z you were correct initially anyway, Bryan survived so there only ever was one murder victim to report.

Richard
2/7/2016 11:01:46 am

I give the 3 minutes scenario more credence than his directional skills on account of him bumping into Fouke and Zelms at Jackson and Maple. After the initial radio call Fouke would have taken approximately 1 minute to reach that intersection, meaning Zodiac probably left the cab 2 minutes before they received the broadcast and that sounds about right. Unlike Fouke and Zelms, if they did, as Zodiac stated say "one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min."
10 minutes ago Paul Stine had yet to be murdered, so that would be strange. As for the hair falling down into the eyelets of Zodiac's mask, one thought is that Zodiac did have short hair, but maybe the fringe was swept back across the head in a pompadour style, once described by Michael Mageau. Many people who grew up in the 50's and 60's used Brylcreem, they had short hair, but ducked up at the front. When Zodiac pulled on the mask it dragged the hair downwards towards his eyes and the eyelets of the mask. Bryan Hartnell described the hair as greasy, maybe it had Brylcreem or lotion in it that gave it the appearance of being greasy and by the same token made it look darker. Just a thought Alex.

Alex Lewis
2/23/2016 05:08:34 am

Hey Rich, I have recently been indulging myself in the Art of 'Reading too much into something' and this is OK just as long as your self aware that that is what you may be doing.

So, what am I talking of specifically or more accurately, who? Well the answer is Richard Hoffman and one or two statement that He makes (Along with Ed Rust recounting what He was met with when He pulled into The Rock Springs Parking Lot on that night, along with Mr Mageau's own comment or two)

Now the comments I am about to refer to made specifically by Dick Hoffman Himself I am fully aware could, and more than likely are, an innocent enough remark made by Hoffman in passing but has a potential for someone, someone of possible Welsh Ancestry, to come along & interpret such a comment as suspicious as a result of simply reading too much into an innocent and passing statement made.

So, the comment in question made by 'The Hoff' is seen in 2007's 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' Documentary where He offers that He'd been out at Rock Spring Parking Lot not more than 30 Mins prior to the shooting that occurred there half hour later. He then, after admitting His presence at a scene of Homicide (Albeit slightly before the actual event begin) by seeming to feel a need to explain why He was there and why His presence there is legitimately justified.

"My purpose out there (Just prior to the shooting) was to make sure there were no teenagers hanging out....drinking, fighting, whatever....The Park was closed."

I just find it slightly odd that after His admitting He was in the vicinity very near to time of a Homicide taking place He follows that by seeming to want to offer us an explanation, or to justify for viewers, why He was there. Again, I am all to aware that this is one little remark made in passing by Richard that can be read into and I am probably just reading too much into it in wondering why He almost wants to avert the suspicion from Himself that nobody is looking at Him with.

Other little potentials to have a 'reading into it' feast on should one wish. . . .

- Hoff states His assignment was 'A Plain clothes' one.

- Ed Rust states that as He, in His marked Patrol Car, pulled in to the parking lot He saw Mike on the ground seeming to be putting His arms up out toward Hoffman who stood over Him with a flashlight illuminating Him. Det Sgt. Rust stated that Mageau appeared to be reaching up and out to Hoffman as if to ask for Help, but was He extending His arms upward in a defensive motion because the person with this flashlight had already shot Him? No basis or evidence for such comments I acknowledge and pure Speculation. But lets not overlook the scenario here, Richard Hoffman is neither in a marked patrol car nor police uniform in order for Mike to know and feel safe that it is a Cop who now stands over Him with A "Big beaming Flashlight"

- Mageau, who's recollection and claims I am the first to acknowledge should be taken with several pinches of the proverbial salt, did say nonetheless that Darlene has recognized the Vehicle and driver and told Mike in response to His asking who is is that just drove in behind them 'Don't worry, He's just jealous that's all.' and then, Mike claimed following this comment with: "Something about Richard. She may have said something about Richard (as the Name of the gate=Crasher pulled in behind Dee's Car.)

- Robert Graysmith stated in His Book on this case that Richard Hoffman was at Darlene's home for Her House Painting Party she threw shortly prior to Her death to celebrate moving into the place. Asked about His alleged attendance at said Party the Producer of the Documentary enquired: "You knew Her, Right" to which Hoffman responded: "I'd never laid eyes on Her!" Then said e had no Idea why R.G had made this statement in His book 'ZODIAC.'

Richard
2/23/2016 06:01:55 am

Taken in the way you presented it, as not necessarily something you prescribe to, it is an interesting idea. Clearly confused and in pain, another person shining a flashlight in your face would be unnerving. But putting the painting party, Michael Mageau's mention of 'Richard', the flashlight, the fact Hoffman would be armed and the typed report of Hoffman containing Zodiac like spelling errors, makes for a heady mix. However Richard Hoffman travelled in the ambulance with Darlene Ferrin and she died upon arriving at the hospital at 12.38 am. Two minutes later Zodiac placed the call at Springs and Tuolumne at 12.40 am, placing Hoffman in the clear. No doubt since Mageau survived, unless Hoffman put the squeeze on him, Mageau would have fingered him. Also Ed Rust said in the documentary he was meandering in the general direction of Blue Rock Springs when Hoffman called him on the radio saying two kids had been shot at BRS, so Rust "then obviously put it in high gear and took off, and we got out there pretty quickly". I doubt Richard Hoffman would have radioed Ed Rust while the guy (Michael Mageau) was still alive and could finger him. He would have finished him off, in any way possible. Of course the man who made the phone call at 12.40 am doesn't have to be the same guy as the shooter, but it is highly likely. The description, by Michael although vague, does not describe Hoffman in 1969, he certainly didn't have light hair, almost blond. However all this doesn't rule out Dee mentioning a Richard, she may have knew him, despite him not knowing her, but I doubt it. By the way I got two letters from the FBI, the second stating no such photographs could be found of the BRS crime scene, despite the fact the police report stating the contrary. No great shock mind.

Alex Lewis
2/25/2016 10:00:02 am

Good points. There are other circumstantial reasons to look at Hoffman as a potential suspect. One thing that springs to mind is Dee's alleged association with Cops, Mageau eloping from Hospital and going into hiding as though He may have felt it wasn't safe to remain there. He also said when the guy pulled in behind them 'I thought it was a police man.'

But there are, as you point out, numerous reasons and known facts to poke holes in the idea of Dick Hoffman being responsible. The phone call placed by the person claiming responsibility I have previously considered being an accomplice rather than the actual shooter just because in both calls the man calling to take responsibility got a fair bit wrong or was at the very least, inaccurate. It's the same with the letters. For example....

In Z's initial letters in August, He is very specific in terms of the victims being '2 Teenagers' and that they were killed 'At Lake Herman.' So He knows and refers to David and Betty-Lou accurately as Teenagers and that they were killed on Lake Herman Rd, again accurate and specific.
Jump forward 8 weeks to October 13th and now, in this letter, Zodiac states the following:

"I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the north bay area."

Here in this letter the writer starts by claiming He killed a cabbie but can't be specific in the street being Cherry but only knows a general area of 'Over By Washing streets and Maple Streets.' Then, referring to the previous victims states: "I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay Area."
The Teenagers on Lake Herman are now people, and these people were killed somewhere in The North Bay Area, a non specific and general victim type and area location.

It's always been odd to me the way He words that sentence in that He declares 'I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay area' emphasis on 'I am the same man" comment. He's already stated who He is in His very opening declaration of This is the Zodiac Speaking. So why, after acknowledging this, does He then seem to want to make sure we the readers understand that He is the same man as opposed to a different man when nobody has even hinted at such a belief or suspicion?

But to finish on the Hoffman point, I am glad you understood the context in which I was writing it, that being, not from a perspective of personal belief in Hoffman being responsible but merely just making several points that when combined together, make Him and His presence there worth at least a second look. As I said before, I don't think it's ever a good idea to be closed minded to any possibility and/or suspect in this case because the moment we do that could be the moment we completely overlook and discount the actual true offender just because He's a cop.

Alex Lewis
2/25/2016 10:21:47 am

The reason I personally find this comment and it's wording strange may just be a matter of personal perception and others may see it as nothing unusual or odd. Again, it's just perspective dependant on who it is reading the comment I suppose but for me, to use the words or terminology of "I am the same man" is to seemingly wish to dismiss anyone suspecting your not the same man that has written previously or that killed the kids.
It's like me posting here rich after this comment by declaring:

"Hello, this is Welsh Chappie Posting. I am the same man did the other comments above and some other feedback in the other threads."

Do you see what I mean Rich? Would you not read that and think it was odd for me to say I am the same Welsh Chappie who posted other comments here because to say it like that your have to assume that there were more than one Welsh Chappie, or at least I as the author of such a comment would seem to think there was and I am making a statement wanting to make sure that Rich the site creator is in no doubt that I, the writer, am 'The same Welsh Chappie' as opposed to another one.

Surely you find this odd Rich if there was never any reason or evidence to suspect that there is only one Welsh Chappie commenting and that is Alex?

Richard
2/25/2016 12:30:23 pm

It does seem a strange choice of words Mr Welsh, as he has already introduced himself into the letter with 'This is the Zodiac Speaking', and unless there were two Zodiac's roaming around, it is unnecessary. 'Zodiac Speaking' and the blooded shirt would be ample. But I suppose he was always being questioned by police to whether he the writer, was actually the murderer. Jack Stiltz and Martin Lee, to name but two, so probably felt compelled to keep reminding them. Anyway Welsh, did you know two of the 9 shell casings at Blue Rock Springs were found in the rear of Darlene Ferrin's Corvair, meaning Zodiac must have leaned into the car to shoot Michael Mageau while he was on the back seat. But I'm thinking of doing an article, because there is something not quite right with the chain of events at BRS. Mageau stated in the police report, Zodiac after returning to shoot them again, shot Darlene twice and him twice. 9 shots were fired, 2 casings in the car and 7 outside. This means Zodiac initially fired five shots at the couple, before leaving then returning to fire four more. But if Zodiac was leaning in the passenger side window shooting Mageau, surely he would have just continued until he did the job, not stop after 5.
The caretaker, who swears he could tell the difference between firecrackers and gunshots, stated that just before midnight he heard a gunshot, A short time later he heard what appeared another gunshot. After another short pause he heard rapid fire of what appeared to be gunshots, then a car racing off. In Mageau's recollection there were two independent volleys of gun fire, first 5 shots then four. Because 9 shots were fired that would mean George Bryant heard 1+1+7 shots. Two separate shots, then a final volley. http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR15.html
However Zodiac stated "On the 4th of July I did not open the car door. The window was rolled down all ready. The boy was origionaly sitting in the front seat when I began fireing. When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time, thus spoiling my aim. He ended up on the back seat then the floor in back thashing out very violently with his legs; that's how I shot him in the knee. I did not leave the cene of the killing with squealling tires + raceing engine as described in the Vallejo paper". This suggests there could be more of an alignment with Mageau's story, so what was Bryant hearing, his account suggests no silencer, unlike the claim of Mageau. This needs a little more thought, why would Zodiac leave and return, or is Mageau mistaken.

Alex
2/27/2016 11:09:36 am

"Anyway Welsh, did you know two of the 9 shell casings at Blue Rock Springs were found in the rear of Darlene Ferrin's Corvair, meaning Zodiac must have leaned into the car to shoot Michael Mageau while he was on the back seat."

No,wasn't aware of that fact Rich. The window on the passenger side Mike acknowledges He rolled down which Z confirms in A letter saying He did not open the door as the window was already rolled down. The other windows probably got blown out by bullets so maybe Z did reach in to the rear seating area at point blan range after Mike scurried into the rear seats. Zodiac stated He knew He had shot 'The Boy' in the the knee after stating He was kicking out with his legs.
When you think about it it makes sense for Mike to be kicking out i the shooters put his arm through the rear window to shot Mike at point blank range, anyone would kick out toward the weapon in a defensive (as ineffective as it may be) motion.

But thanks for that Rich, wasn't aware that any shells were found on vehicles interior.

Alex
2/27/2016 11:25:54 am

"But I'm thinking of doing an article, because there is something not quite right with the chain of events at BRS. Mageau stated in the police report, Zodiac after returning to shoot them again, shot Darlene twice and him twice. 9 shots were fired, 2 casings in the car and 7 outside. This means Zodiac initially fired five shots at the couple, before leaving then returning to fire four more."

As for the caretaker, it would be extremely simplistic for police to test His claim of being able to distinguish shots from firecrackers....you simply take Him to point A, let off 5 firecrackers and fire five shot in random order and ask Him which 5 of the 10 reports He heard were shots?
But that would be police having to do work, evidence or claim testing. This is not something these agencies did back then it seems, I mean at LHR the police don't want to interview their own witnesses and get Civilian James Owen to do it on their behalf and report back the findings.

This case in general is ludicrous. Pelissetti knowing Suspect is A WMA doesn't bother detaining the WMA He see's and determine His Identity by asking for some ID? Can't be bothered, too busy contradicting everything His colleague Fouke says.

"Now, Mr Pelissetti.....You spoke with Kjell that night and. . . "

Pelissetti: "DENIED! DENIED DENIED DENIED DENIED AND DID I MENTION I DENY THIS?"

Ask Him who it was He spoke with then and Armond will pull His weapon and point it at you informing you you have 10 seconds to disappear..... 1, 2, 10"

Well His (Z's) intention was to immediately dispatch Michael with one bullet as He'd done with Faraday but Mike wasn't aware nor was He going with Zodiacs script of how the killings would go. In Zodiac's little vision, He only needs one slug to incapacitate Mike, so reloading won't be needed nor necessary.


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