TWO COPS PULLED A GOOF﻿

TWO COPS PULLED A GOOF

8/14/2015

One of the overriding questions in the Zodiac case has always been a hot topic for debate, that being, did Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms stop and talk to the Zodiac Killer? Donald Fouke has always denied any conversation between him and the killer ever took place, in direct conflict to what the Zodiac claimed in the 'Bus Bomb' letter mailed one month after the murder of Paul Stine on November 9th 1969, when he wrote: "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again".

Some people believe their denial of stopping and talking to the white male stems from the embarrassment of letting a killer on his way, whereas some people believe Donald Fouke, a respected police officer, over a merciless killer. Is there anyway to find a definitive answer nearly 50 years later? The short answer is no - but by reading through the detail and listening to the accounts of Armond Pelissetti, the first responding officer that night, and Donald Fouke being interviewed on 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' (2007) and the 'Crimes of the Century' (1989) documentaries, we can say it is extremely likely a conversation between the police and the killer did occur. Of course, memories get blurred over time and this is understandable, however, there are definite red flags of such inconsistency, one finds it difficult to explain away

Armond Pelissetti stated in the 2007 documentary that he responded to a radio dispatch concerning Paul Stine 'red light and siren' at 9:55 pm. The actual time was closer to 9:58 pm, but it is not critical, because at the same time patrolmen Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms also received the broadcast as they were traveling northbound on Presidio Avenue, having just passed Washington Street. So we will go with 9:58 pm in this instance.
Armond Pelissetti was close by and reacted by traveling west on Washington Street, parking on the intersection of Washington and Cherry Streets. He exited his vehicle and noticed three teenagers in the vicinity of the intersection, so he ushered the kids back across the street to the alcove of their residence. At this point he was of the understanding he was looking for a black male suspect. He went over to the taxicab and observed Paul Stine lying slumped over the front passenger seat with his head resting on the floorboard of the passenger side and was 99.9% certain he was dead. It is then he retook the description of the suspect. In the 2007 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary he stated "it was then I was told it was a white male, I couldn't get to the radio fast enough at that point to let everybody else know. The kids had told me whoever had done this crime had left the cab, went out the door and seemed to be wiping the cab down and reaching into the cab and ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction, kind of towards the Presidio. I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn't get my head blown off".

Officer Donald Fouke, on the other hand, was at the same time (9:58 pm) making his approach to the crime scene - he had just passed Washington Street by Presidio Avenue - so his quickest and most direct route was north to Jackson Street, west along Jackson Street to Cherry Street and then south to the crime scene, which is exactly what he should have done if he was responding to the crime scene. En route, he noticed a white male on the north side of Jackson Street as he approached Maple Street, however, believing he was looking for a black male adult, he claimed he slowed down and passed the man without stopping or questioning him. He then claimed he continued west on Jackson Street before turning southbound into Cherry. This is where he stated in the 2007 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary that he bumped into Armond Pelissetti, who was cautiously scanning the alcoves and vehicles traveling up Cherry Street. It is then, crucially, that Donald Fouke said "He stopped us and said that he was looking for the white male that had just gone down the street. There was a little conversation about what the initial description was and he said no he was a white male, I then used a slang term and said oh that was the suspect". Clearly, Donald Fouke was still under the impression he was on the lookout for a black male until he was corrected.

It is patently obvious, that when both officers received the original police broadcast, their first instincts would have been to head toward the Washington and Cherry crime scene, which is what they ultimately both did. Many people say memories get blurred with time, so we will head backwards to the 'Crimes of the Century' documentary eighteen years earlier in 1989 and see what Donald Fouke stated when asked of his recollections. It should, in theory, be a little more accurate. Here is the important section of this documentary where Donald Fouke outlined how the events unfolded that night.
https://youtu.be/_A3kD-j25jQ?t=57s

After passing the male subject on Jackson Street, Donald Fouke stated "We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect". Clearly, this account differs markedly from the 2007 version and from the standpoint of common sense, because turning southbound on Cherry seemed the correct course of action - after all - he was responding to the crime scene at Washington and Cherry, unaware at this point in time that Armond Pelissetti has responded to the crime scene before him. So what was he doing as he claimed in the 'Crimes of the Century' documentary, heading towards Arguello Boulevard and West Pacific Avenue, away from the crime scene? Remember what the Zodiac claimed in the 'Bus Bomb' letter on November 9th 1969: "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them." In other words, the only reason for Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms to have been heading towards Arguello Boulevard and around the corner into West Pacific Avenue, away from the crime scene, is if Zodiac directed them there - and they were looking for a man 'running and waving a gun'.

Remember, Donald Fouke stated we "conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect". In the 2007 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary he said he last observed the suspect entering a stairwell at 3712 Jackson Street. If this were the case, on receiving the revised description of a white male as his patrol car was approaching Arguello Boulevard, the logical move would have been to perform a u-turn and head straight back to 3712 Jackson Street. Yet he stated that they continued onward conducting a search along West Pacific Avenue to the Julius Kahn playground, pouring huge doubt on this sighting outside 3712 Jackson Street being the last observed location of the suspect. What is more likely, is the white male suspect who issued them with directions, was last observed heading towards West Pacific Avenue via the Jackson and Maple intersection (as stated in his November 12th 1969 police memorandum), which is why Donald Fouke continued onward and entered West Pacific Avenue after receiving the update to a white male adult. Realizing he had likely spoken to the suspect and been duped, he headed towards the Julius Kahn playground along West Pacific Avenue to the area he last saw the man heading. Unable to find the suspect he turned around and headed back to Cherry Street.

The detailed description by Donald Fouke of the white male suspect, right down to his tan engineering boots and elasticated waistband and cuffs, bearing in mind he was still looking for a black male at this point, seems to point to the fact that a greater interaction occurred between killer and police officer than we were being led to believe. There is one other crucial factor in the timeline that indicates Donald Fouke's account is nearer the mark in the 'Crimes of the Century' documentary than his 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' recollection - and that is concerning his meeting with Armond Pelissetti along Cherry Street, which they both concur.

Both Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti received the initial police broadcast at 9:58 pm, but the important thing to remember here, is they both received it at the same time. So let us examine what Donald Fouke said in the 2007 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary concerning his speed, "Before I saw him (the white male on Jackson St) I was traveling probably about 35-40 mph, slowed down as we passed him, saw it was a white male, step on the gas, 5,10,15 seconds tops". The journey from the Presidio Avenue and Washington Street intersection, where he took the initial broadcast, is approximately 0.6 miles to the upper reaches of Cherry Street, where he bumped into Armond Pelissetti. Erring on the side of caution, which backs up the following argument even more, we have averaged his speed down to 30 mph. Therefore, traveling 0.6 miles at 30 mph, it would take Officer Donald Fouke approximately 1 minute 30 seconds to meet up with Armond Pelissetti at the top of Cherry Street.

So, let us now look at Officer Armond Pelissetti's timeline to enable him the reach the upper part of Cherry Street in 1m 30s to meet with Donald Fouke. Again, we shall be generous, and attempt to get him to the meeting on time. Let us say it took only 30 seconds for Armond Pelissetti to respond to the initial radio broadcast and park up at the intersection of Washington and Cherry. A brisk walk up Cherry Street to the Jackson/Cherry intersection is about 1 minute - but remember, Armond Pelissetti is walking slowly checking alcoves and parked cars. So we will be even more generous and afford him 90 seconds. That is 90 seconds to traverse up Cherry and 30 seconds to arrive at the crime scene - which is obviously 2 minutes. This is already exceeding the time he can take if he is to meet up with Donald Fouke - making their meeting impossible. Remember, when he arrived at the intersection of Washington and Cherry he ushered the kids back to the alcove of their residence, checked the body of Paul Stine in the taxicab and was 99.9% certain he was dead, retook the description and direction of the killer, sent out the revised description of a white male to all other units, and asked his partner, Frank Peda, to secure the crime scene, before heading up Cherry Street. The two minutes described earlier, plus all these actions, shows without any doubt he would never have met Donald Fouke at the top of Cherry Street, had Donald Fouke traveled here directly from the initial radio broadcast, Donald Fouke would now be at the crime scene, which he wasn't.

So, the question to ask is, what was Donald Fouke doing with all this extra time, of which there would havr been at least two minutes? If he turned straight into Cherry Street as he claimed in the 2007 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary, then he would had to have stopped and talked to the white male suspect in Jackson Street for possibly 2 minutes to allow for him to meet Armond Pelissetti directly - and based on the dialogue given by Zodiac in the 'Bus Bomb' letter, it was more likely a matter of seconds rather than minutes. So this scenario is unlikely. However, if he had briefly talked to the Zodiac Killer and had been directed to Arguello Boulevard and then had conducted a brief sweep of West Pacific Avenue, before returning to Cherry Street to meet Armond Pelissetti, then this 2+ minutes are accounted for easily. This indicates that his account in the 'Crimes of the Century' documentary is truer to the unfolding events of October 11th 1969 and not his later account in the 2007 documentary, which does not conform to the timeline. In fact, it simply is not possible whichever way you twist it.

A big thanks to Alex Lewis for all his help on this subject.

Robin Smith

8/15/2015 07:06:18 am

I have been "trawling" the Z sites trying to find out when and how Kjell Qvale's name ever entered into the conversation as a Z suspect. Can anyone shed light on that? I know he was suspect X for along time but I always thought that suspect X was Robert E Hunter Jr.

We know how Robert E Hunter Jr's name got into Z conversations per his father's involvement with Donna Lass at Santa Barbara's Cottage Hosp and the fact that his niece in Riverside was a friend of Cheri Jo Bates blah blah.

Don Fouke would know Kjell Qvale on sight so he would have been able to dispel immediately any suggestion of the white guy on the steps at 3712 Jackson being Mr Q..with or without dog!

This is all making me Netflix "Dirty Harry"

Tom M

1/14/2018 11:06:17 am

Well one thing for sure and it is mentioned later. Mr X would not incriminate himself by mailing a portion of Stine’s shirt. So how many people did SFPD encounter that night in the vicinity? It seems that the killer entered the park at Spruce, and then made his gettaway.

Foukeup

4/7/2020 01:01:19 pm

I was wondering if someone who is smarter than i am could shed some light on this for me. If, as per sfpd, seven of the best police search dogs were deployed into the park the night of the murder and officer fouke last saw the suspect heading towards a residence on Jackson st, wouldnt it make sense to bring one of these dogs to said residence and see what he sniffs out? It seems to me the sfpd dropped the ball on several different occasions.

Foukeup

4/7/2020 01:42:00 pm

Seems like common sense to me why wouldnt you take the "best police dogs in the country" to the last place he was spotted?

Richard

4/7/2020 02:13:42 pm

Probably because the story of Zodiac heading into the residence of 3712 Jackson Street was complete fiction. Donald Fouke never mentioned this in 1969. He stated he last saw Zodiac heading north on Maple.

Foukeup

4/7/2020 04:27:35 pm

So in other words the SFPD motto is "igonore all common sense, and hope it works out" im sorry but something stinks about the whole situation. Who is fouke covering for?

Foukeup

4/7/2020 04:34:03 pm

Lets call a spade a spade, San Franciscos finest dropped the ball. Anyone with half a brain can see the writing on the wall. Why did they choose to ignore all common sense and investigations 101 page 1. Guess we will never know.

Richard

8/15/2015 07:28:53 am

I would ask Mike Rodelli for his initial interest in wealthy businessman Kjell Qvale, but he lived close to the Stine murder scene. Hopefully he or Alex may shed a little more light on it. I think it began through the writing styles of Zodiac appearing similar to Kjell Qvale's contact with newspapers. But I believe his DNA did not match up when submitted to authorities, maybe he can expand.

Robin Smith

8/15/2015 08:30:24 am

People, well certain people, were pouring millions of dollars into developing the South Shore as a result of the 1960 Olympics at Squaw Valley.

This of course involved Del E Webb, connected big time with SF Mayor Joe Aliotto and his mobster friend. We cannot forget the U S Military millions Webb made in Montana.

I mean why would anyone be looking at Mr.Q's handwriting to start with?

Robin Smith

8/16/2015 03:39:11 am

Don Fouke would know Mr Q. on sight...who did not! Therefore, the question or me is, WHY initially, would Fouke just not say....We passed Mr Q down the street and he has not seen anyone or we saw Mr Q down the street and he saw a man waving a gun and running up the hill.

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 12:47:57 am

"Don Fouke would know Mr Q. on sight."

Well let's say if it wasn't Qvale but someone else Don would have recognized upon encountering them, then there is your answer as to why he'd denied all these years stopping to speak to the person He is claiming not to know the identity of. What is the purpose and reason? Well if it were to ever be discovered that The man on Jackson Street was, Hal Snook we'll use as example, then if this ever came out and Don has admitted He had stopped A White Male back on the night, everyone is going to ask 'You stopped to speak with Hal Snook and you never made it known it was He you saw and spoke to? You muct have know who he was Don you admit you spoke to him and so you'd have to have recognized him as Snook"

However, if the revelation is ever forth coming 'Investigation and witness give sworn statement White Male on street was Harold Snook' then Don can simply declare "I never saw him up close, I simply saw He was White and continued on passed."

Also Don seems to suggest it was difficult to distinguish features of this man due to it being dark, this despite giving a super-specific and accurate description of the entire suspects wardrobe. He says "I remember seeing His eyes, I couldn't tell you what color they were, it was dark.....Dark enough that his eyes (color thereof) were concealed"

Fascinating Don, fasciating! You have tell the color of his pants, rust brown, zipper 3 quarter waist length jacket with elsatic waitst and cuff, navy blue in color. Boots, tan in color and you could even see the fact that man's head and hair color was 'Possibly greying at the rear' but suggest that the lighting being bright and bouncing off head of suspect may have simply made it appeear this way!!
Clothing description, once suspect has gone it's irrelevant to look for a male with similar dress as He can simply change into alterative attire. If you recalled after seeing the eye color however, this is physical descriptive detail unalterable by suspect and therefore use to anyone looking for him.

Alex Lewis

10/5/2015 03:13:26 pm

You know, I've been trying to think of, given the many differing accounts by Armond & Don, which is most likely to be true in regards specifically to what Z said to Don. If you take the many different accounts of what Zodiac said to Fouke and use logic, the evidence and on scene response, and Z's own words I think the answer is clear.

The most likely and accurate sequence of events is the one in which Pelissetti said in one account: "The other unit stopped someone and asked that person had He seen anyone and the person said 'Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio.'

Why do I say this? Well, This is what Armond claimed Don had told him about what He had said and reply given in his encountering a White Male near Maple and Jackson intersection. Now in Z's letter He says "This cop car pulled up and one of them called me over and asked had I seen anyone acting strange and I said that I had and there was this man who went running by waving a gun and they peeled rubber and went around the corner as I had directed them."

Now the temptation here is to read Z as literal again in that He directed them to the area up street where He saw this supposed armed man but I don't think He means this at all. I think Zodiac said exactly what Armond Pelissetti stated He tells Don and tells Don "Yes, I just saw a man with a gun run into the Presidio" and then offers the extra help of pointing uphill and telling Don that three blocks uphill at Arguello a right turn will lead directly onto west pacific itself.

Again, I know I keep saying this but I can't get away from it, if Fouke is told this by man who is a nobody then I think He would not have second guessed himself as He admitted to doing so. I believe that it was none other than Mr Qvale who directs Fouke to the Presidio and if this is correct then Fouke has my sympathy because at this moment He and the guy are engaging, Fouke is under the assumption that this is a robbery gone bad where the person responsible is desperate enough to kill for a few dollars and so to suspect this man of the crime, the multi millionaire Kjell Qvale, is simply lunacy! Kjell is, in fact, making his way home to His multi million dollar mansion just the other side of Maple Intersect.

Don said when asked why He never gave this white guy a second thought "I didn't think of it in my report because I assumed that He (the actual killer) did not live in the area (and He knew Mr Qvale did live in that area)" So what Don is saying is He didn't think of reporting his encountering this person because He knew it was Qvale and Qvale is not someone that anyone would think to report seeing when you are seeking a robbery suspect where 6 or 7 dollars are the target. "I didn't think about it in my report...." He said, which is exactly what I would say if someone asked me why I didn't report seeing a person that I knew to be such a rich and influential man as that of a petty thief and murder suspect

Alex Lewis

10/5/2015 04:18:55 pm

And again see if this man is the Zodiac, then now we need to answer several important questions....

1) Zodiac watches Fouke go upjhill and around onto West Pacific as He had directed them and so, how in the World is He now going to duck through the Wall of Maple and into the Presidio and then make His way along the road to Julius Kahn Park and do so without being spotted??
2) Before answering question one maybe we need to ask first, why in the hell would anyone direct a swarm of cops to the exact place you plan on using yourself as a means of escape? You simply wouldn't do this!
3) If Zodiac is being honest when He brags "Hey Blue Pig, I was in the Park....." then this now becomes even more stupendously stupid as now we must believe that He himself directs the police to go dashing to the grounds of the Presidio before He himself rushes onto this very same stage and ends up surrounded by the very responding police He minutes ago directed to this area. Anyone who believes this is plausible or likely to have happened may as well say that Zodiac shoots Paul and then hears a siren in the distance and leaps under the yellow cab hiding where He believes He will never be discovered!

See for me it is just so obvious as of late, if the question is 'Who may have a motive to point the responding police into the presidio?' then I am answering every day with the same answer of: "Someone who knows very well they won't be going anywhere near that place." Someone who also is still able to watch the unfolding search happen. Who would all these circumstantial tid-bits fit nicely? Suspect X! Mr Q!

Richard

10/6/2015 01:59:37 am

We both agree that Donald Fouke spoke to the Zodiac that night. Now imagine this, let's say we assume that Donald Fouke was looking for a BMA as has been reported and he stopped a white Zodiac, surely his conversation with Zodiac would have been this "Have you seen a black male in the vicinity." He surely would have used the colour of the suspect in his dialogue with Zodiac, as it would have narrowed down any response from Zodiac. Donald Fouke then moved off in pursuit, as you said towards Arguello Boulevard and West Pacific Avenue. However in the early documentaries he stated it is approaching Arguello St he received the revised description changed to a white male. So if Zodiac had directed him towards Arguello Boulevard based on a black male sighting, why would he continue on to West Pacific Avenue to search for a black male that was now irrelevant. He implied he was corrected to the new description approaching Arguello, we would have to assume his only reason for continuing on to West Pacific Avenue and alongside Julius Khan Park was if Zodiac had not mentioned or confirmed the suspect was black, BUT what policemen would stop a person walking on Jackson Street, engaging him in conversation and not asking if he had seen a BMA as the description stated, surely Donald Fouke before being directed by Zodiac wouldn't have just said "Have you seen a man wandering around", he must surely have added the colour description, since black people are the minority, at approximately 10% of the population, so by sheer common sense Fouke would certainly have said "Have you seen a black man in the near neighbourhood." Zodiac would then have sent him towards Arguello. But once Donald Fouke realizes the new description why does he continue forward instead of returning to Washington and Cherry St. This surely would suggest that Donald Fouke knew all along the suspect was white, which is why Zodiac never mentioned in the Bus Bomb Letter that
"I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this BLACK man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again". ie; Zodiac mentions nothing about colour. But surely if Fouke was looking for a BMA it is almost certain he would have questioned Zodiac about a BMA, but he didn't, which reaffirms our belief no such description was ever given out by the dispatcher and we know almost certainly Fouke stopped Zodiac, otherwise why did he head to Arguello when he should have turned south into Cherry towards the crime scene, where the crime had taken place and where he was supposedly responding. You certainly don't head away from the crime scene unless someone has directed you there in the intervening period and we know he headed up Argeuello, because had he not he would have reached the crime scene before Pelissetti had even left the corner of Washington and Cherry. The timeline proves this undeniably and without doubt.

Alex Lewisting

10/6/2015 08:51:07 am

Z said He was asked had he seen 'Anybody' acting strange or suspicious in the last to 10 minutes' and Armond recalled 'The other unit stopped someone, A White Man, and asked had He seen anything suspicious or anybody in the area? The person said 'Yes, A man just ran into the Presidio.'

Armond seems to offer an almost identical statement to that given by Zodiac also as to what was asked with the specific words used matching very very closely, and what the White man had said in reply.

Alex Lewis

10/6/2015 08:55:21 am

It seems from Armond and Zodiac's claim regarding what Don had asked him that Don asks a general question, He does not offer Zodiac a specific type or color of suspected offender and in reply, Zodiac offers nothing similar back in answering Don's question believing suffice it will be to offer 'Yes, A MAN just ran into the Presidio' rather than or opposed to 'Yes, a Black guy just ran int the Presidio."

Richard

10/6/2015 09:11:39 am

That's true, but why doesn't ask Zodiac if he has seen a black man acting suspiciously in the area if he is looking for a black man. That would be a sensible police inquiry.

Alex lewis

10/6/2015 04:14:16 pm

"That's true, but why doesn't ask Zodiac if he has seen a black man acting suspiciously in the area if he is looking for a black man."

Well the answer here Rich is what we discussed previously. Don does not seek Zodiac's Help by asking "Excuse me Sir, have you seen any Black Male's in the area in tje past 5 to 10 minutes?" because Don has no cause nor reason to because no very dumb and/or head of hearing dispatcher is Told "White Man with Glasses" and fumbles around with the Radio on his desk before issuing A BOLO to all responding units that's the suspect will be Negro or Black Male Adult. It's not like the passage of time has made His memory less accurate as He takes the report then I imagine instantly gives the alert.

And I was thinking earlierthis is not really important and more a point of personal perspective that others may not themelves do but if Don asked me as innocent man had I seen anyone acting odd or suspicious I may first think 'Ummm, not really, why is that Officer?" If He then tells me "Cause a Tai driver has been shot and killed with a singe bullet to His head a block away." Well now this likely changes everything.....That man that walked up to a house, opened the door and went in, 3 minutes ago, most natural non suspicious thing in the World. Now I know Cab Driver executed, this man going into house....Extremely suspicious! That guy on the top floor in the window looking at us, He was simply a curious man 15 seconds ago, now He is watching me too intently, May be possible sniper! Look! There goes a highly suspect White Male Adult, Making no effort to disguise the fact He is running from the area. His jogging shorts and vest ain't following anyone! "Hold it right there! Don't Move! Sir, are you impersonating a jogger to casually trot out of Pacific Heights due to you being the absconding cab fare?

And Rich, very serious thought here. What the Hell is Fouke doing allowing anyone, Qvale or another unknown person, to just continue walking on down the street when there is a Psycho somewhere very close by that could be hid, as Armond cautiously acknowledges, could be concealed within a number of alcoves and/or behind numerous parked cars? Is there not a threat to life and imminent danger present right in that very area? Can't picture a cop asking a guy a question then ordering "Thanks man, off you go into the extreme danger zone and possible line of fire of the hidden mad man."

Yo get what I mean though Rich? Once you know what has taken place that which may have been totally innocent and of no concern or bother to you, may become very suspect if and when you know Somebody that is close by just executed a taxi driver.

Alex Lewis

10/7/2015 05:08:47 am

Just been contemplating this case again and I have noticed something which my inner self is demanding I must put to print.....Again. :-)

Rich Zodiac said He directed the Cops uphill and He observed them as they went around the corner. Well this very comment here, when Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's World Famous logic is applied, we see the puzzle solve itself.

"When you have eliminated all other possibilities, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable it may seem, must be the truth." Sir A.C.D's very true and logical reasoning above can be used to answer where Fouke sped uphill and ended up.

Fouke said first in the earlier versions that "We proceeded to Arguello Street...Blah Blah and Blah.
In His more recent account He passes through Maple and "We turned Southbound on Cherry Street and saw Officer Armond Pelissetti..."

Well, which has to be correct and which can we discount and by what means? Well, Fouke is directed by this white male to wherever it is that He speeds off to which means:

Turning Southbound onto Cherry? Discount this as it cannot be what happened. How and Why? Because this White guy points them to an area and states He has seen someone with a gun (and also probability suggests He said He'd running by and into The Presidio) and Zodiac culd not have stated He had witnessed a man go running by then point to Cherry and say the armed runner went outhbund onto Cherry St because if He did, Don would have to raise the proverbial eyebrow because now He has a guy claiming that the person responsible has ran to Maple, seems to turn on his heels, then run back up Jackson toward Cherry then tur straight toward the scene and the units there-on.

And so it came to pass in the year Twenty-Fifteen that He that is WelshChappie did make another discovery that is most important, well, so He seems to believe.

Richard

10/7/2015 08:11:56 am

Exactly,but there is absolutely 100% no way on earth Donald Fouke turned into Cherry first and met Armond Pelissetti. Zodiac directed him westbound on Jackson to Arguello. We know that because Donald Fouke admits this twice in earlier documentaries. Like I said it takes Donald Fouke 90 seconds to travel to Cherry Street from Presidio/Washington intersection, where he took the dispatcher's call. How can Armond Pelissetti from his receiving of the call take 90 seconds to reach the upper reaches of Cherry St or any of Cherry St for that matter. It took him at least 1 minute to reach the crime scene, he ushered the kids to the alcove, checked on Paul Stine, took a description and direction of travel from the teenagers, dispatched the updated description to fellow officers and then took at least 90 seconds carefully travelling up Cherry. But to meet Donald Fouke he had to do this in 90 seconds, which he didn't. And as we both agree the reason he is heading to Arguello is because Zodiac directed him there. Could you imagine; Alex Lewis of Welsh Patrol is heading towards a crime scene of a robbery and assault, but just as you are 30 seconds away from the crime scene, you go the wrong way and head away from the crime scene. WHY. Because somebody intervened and sent you there. It's not rocket science. If there was a God I'd pray for deliverance. Only Einstein and particle physicists can bend space and time, Donald Fouke in 1969 couldn't. He probably did meet up with AP 2-4 minutes later, but only after his deviation into Arguello and West Pacific Avenue. He finds nobody in the Julius Khan area, so returns to Cherry. The only problem is he fails to mention this in the 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary. It doesn't mean he was changing his story, he just fails to elaborate the whole order of events. TIME is a constant in San Francisco and 90 seconds is 90 seconds, no matter how you bend it.

Richard

10/7/2015 08:28:51 am

IN A NUTSHELL
1. If Donald Fouke travels to Cherry, him and Armond Pelissetti 'never shall the twain meet' in 90 seconds or even 2 minutes for that matter.
2. They will meet at Cherry however, if Donald Fouke takes an excursion to Arguello and WPA.
3. Why is Donald Fouke in Arguello, the crime scene is at Washington and Cherry.
4. He is there because Zodiac directed him there.
5. He is there because as you said Zodiac would never have directed Fouke towards the crime scene, having knowledge of the crime and just left there, it would raise a big red f......g flag and makes no sense.
6. Time does not lie, but people do.

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 10:48:34 pm

It is quite interesting if true, and I can't see why wouldn't be, what Eric Zelms is claimed to have told his wife before He was killed. Dianna Zelms is said to have told Howard Davis that Eric told her that He and Don had stopped and they did speak to a white guy with glasses and she said this bothered Eric after He discovered it was A crime committed by Zodiac so much so that He carried the SF Composite in His pocket on duty right up to the day He died.
She also said she and Eric spoke at length about this incident and speaking to this White Guy and Eric is supposed to have said that when He came over and spoke to Don, there was nothing unusual at all about Him. He just looked like your average everyday guy, nothing special or standout and He didn't seem at all nervous or worried and spoke calmly and clearly and gave no signs that would give you cause or concern.

Richard

10/10/2015 11:31:37 pm

The Howard Davis story corroborates Donald Fouke's movements after the interaction with Zodiac, claiming they headed towards Arguello. It also explains how Donald Fouke was able to recollect such detail as elasticated cuffs in the dead of night, as Zodiac probably approached the officers vehicle when they summoned him. Donald Fouke was the senior officer and Eric Zelms the rookie, so I am certain that any decision to 'forget' the Zodiac meeting would have been obeyed by the inexperienced officer and as you mentioned something that subsequently played heavily on his mind. You know Alex, as I do that Donald Fouke looks extremely uncomfortable in the 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary towards the back end, contradicting himself and tying himself up in knots many times and I'm no body language expert, but when somebody is telling untruths they look exactly like Donald Fouke. No doubt Alex you have watched the 100's of Youtube videos of modern day American police basically executing and murdering unarmed civilians, disabled people and children and in all but the odd case they are exonerated, even though everybody else in the world can see their murders on video. Of course not all policemen are corrupt, many do a great job, but unfortunately when senior officers justify these clearly illegal murders they taint the whole police force, including the good cops who are afraid to speak out as the whole system closes rank. Now we both know that the police officer who murders a civilian will often give a bullshit account of proceedings to cover his or her arse, which the video subsequently refutes. This is a common practice even when these dumb arses know that when the video is released it will expose their lies, but back in 1969 they knew their secret was safe. The point being, if they lie even when they know they will be exposed, it is not unreasonable to believe they will lie when they know they won't be exposed.

Richard

10/10/2015 11:59:56 pm

As you know this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03LxasZxbKY at 14;20 captures Armond Pelissetti saying "The other unit stopped somebody, a white man and asked if he had seen anything suspicious or anybody in the area and that person said 'Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio.'" Of course this is why Donald Fouke claims he entered Arguello and West Pacific Avenue in the 1989 TV appearance, because he did, he was following Zodiac's instructions. People say memories fade, that is true, but stories should not change completely, with additional information suddenly added, as of the 3712 Jackson Street claim, that I am now convinced never happened. Either Fouke spotted a stumbling, rumbling, limping, bowing man passing his car, spotted a man heading up a concrete stairwell to a house at 3712 Jackson, spotted a man at the corner of Maple and Jackson heading towards the Presidio or stopped a man, you can't have it four ways.

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 02:48:02 pm

Well yeah I have seen youtube many clips showing cops gunning down people in the street that are 9/10 times unarmed and no threat. These types of 'White Cop shots Black Man = justified lethal force' is simply simply disgraceful and it makes the news for a week maybe then thats it. When a Cop gets killed by suspect with a gun and ie, the other way around, uproar!
You know what Rich I saw one video right and this guys is only about 18, black youth and two cops corner him and He is scared as battons are drawn and then as the clip progresses the door to the corridor area sees about 8 more cops filter through it and the kid is on the ground and I am not kiddin Rich they use their battons to shatter almost every bone in both his Legs requiring pins and rods to reconstruct both legs, and one cop sits on his chest in the end of the vid and literally rains down punches. I watched this and kept thinking You bastards! You bunch of cowardly thugs with badges!

As you know Rich, I simply detest arrogance and people who believe they have a right to do something that another cannot. Racist people, and I have been of this mind for years now, they are the most dmb, stupid and unintelligent people this Planet has walking upon it. There is evidence to support this theory of retardation and it goes back decades to the KKK. These are a people who sit around wondering how they can prevent the Black Man from making the Aryan race extinct and the KKK leader, calling himself the grand dragon and wearing on body white bed sheets completed with a pillow case on the bonce stands and says "Ah-ha...thats it! Lets go find a big wodden cross, put it in a front yard, and then set fire to it!" Then everyone stands and declares 'White Power!' over and over again like adults with learning difficulties.

You know I have debated many online regarding America as the only Western Democratic Country to continue using Capital Punishment and when you look at The States the seeming lack of respect for human life is clear in the homicide rates. Pro-Murder by State supporters will rant "Death Penalty is a deterrent!" I answer "It does, this is true except that is not true though in the slightest and if you look at the factual statistics, Sates that have Death as a punishment have far higher murder rates than Staes that do not!" Now I believe Rich this says a lot here, I think that if your to be led by example and that example is a State that kills it's own Citizens and picking and choosing them that it decides warrant death then these States have higher rates of Homicide in my opinion because the Elected Officials are killing people which infers that Life, most precious and sacred thing, means actually very little to these as they seem to take it as and when they decide so, why should Citizens be expected to not be led by example?
Then these people argue "Well why should us tax payers pay to keep these people alive in prison costing loads of cash, we should just kill them!!"
This is the argument used by pro death penalty people who just have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, they hate paying to keep scum in prison so should kill them instead! I argue in response that, OK, Money seems to be what concerns you here most, but Ok lets take that point and break it down: "I am terrible at maths, totally useless! However, even I can work this out, so here is the facts: The State of Florida spent $5.000.000 to execute Ted Bundy, FIVE MILLION! Average cost per inmate per year to keep in prison? Around $20,000. Now, work out the most cost effective punishment here?

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 03:00:26 pm

Hitch debated the death penalty against what He referred to as 'Human Sacrifice' ritual by the State and He was against pro death by state antagonist and The United States Attorney General and Hitch said after hearing Him speak to the arguments for death being a good option said: "I think I known now why they support this barbaric human sacrifice so staunchly, it means something to them and the preservation of their authority....which gives me one additional reason to wish to see them stripped of it."

Richard

10/11/2015 03:18:42 pm

I too oppose state sanctioned murder. Don't get me wrong, if somebody murdered a family member of mine and I had the chance to murder them personally, I would. But my opposition to the death penalty is unless you get a correct jury conviction 100% of the time, then it is not acceptable to sanction death. I have seen many cases where innocent people have been executed and one is too many. I saw a couple being interviewed on television in America and they said "we agree with the death penalty, it's not a perfect system, but 99 out of 100 people executed are guilty and just because very occasionally they make a mistake is no reason to stop capital punishment." Roughly translated : we can write that off as a statistic, because it is somebody else's family member. Now imagine their son or daughter gets executed for a crime they didn't commit, could you imagine them saying "well 99 out of 100 people are guilty, the execution of our family member is just one of those things, most of the time they get it right" Not bloody likely, they would be gunning for blood. It's OK to be matter of fact when it's somebody else's family member executed, but if it happened to them do you think they would be staunch advocates for capital punishment anymore. I'll let you work that one out, but it won't change a damn thing, because the human race is inherently a selfish one.

Richard

10/11/2015 03:26:56 pm

Yes I love watching Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins piece by piece demolish their opponents with sheer common sense, especially on the dumbest news channel on earth, Fox News, with presenters like Bill O Reilly spouting out arguments a 13 year old would be embarrassed to utter. I also love the Young Turks, who I cannot fail to agree with almost all the time.

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 10:41:48 pm

Not a fan of Dawkins myself, He's comes across as quite arrogant. But Hitch, can't beat a good old Hitch-Slap.

"What we need to do is stop acting all impressed when someone puts 'Rev' in front of their name as though it's something to respect. I am not impressed. To me, people who introduce themselves with The Rev in front of their name is just a way of saying "Hi I am someone that will believe practically anything without any evidence at all."

Debates...."Mr Hitchens, you have 10 minutes to deliver your opening argument."
Hitch: "Well I don't think it will take ten minutes to disprove the existence of God."
He also pointed out when debating a Catholic Bishop that His Church will not ex-communicate a well known Nazi Sympathizer who openly supports Hitler and his Final Solution to deal with the Jewish Problem, won't ex-communicate him nor the child molesting priest that His Holiness covered up. But last week finally, there was a sin committed that saw the sinner ex-communicated immediately, anyone know what this unforgivable sin was? Marrying a Protestant! Now that is going too far that....out you go!"

Alex Lewis

10/14/2015 10:47:07 am

I tell you yet another odd comment made, this time it's a remark uttered by Mr Graysmith, and it this: "Fortunately, as I had been told, they were looking for a Black Man, they'd been give the wrong information."

What's strange about this comment by Robert? Just one word, the very first one he starts the sentence with.
Why would He describe the police being given the wrong information which He knows led to Zodiac being able to avoid being caught that night as fortunate? Here is the comment spoken by RG I am referring to:

https://youtu.be/_A3kD-j25jQ?t=1m11s

Alex Lewis

11/8/2015 10:09:26 am

"Exactly,but there is absolutely 100% no way on earth Donald Fouke turned into Cherry first and met Armond Pelissetti. Zodiac directed him westbound on Jackson to Arguello."

Rich you must get a upgrade Sir to allow pic/photo posting on the commenting/forum section here. I am reduced to emailing you my pic and 'discovery.'

That being, as you'll see in the street view POV I emailed you, a Zodiac standing at Jackson & Maple area, even elevated upon the Magic 7 Steps to freedom leading to Thirty-Seven Twelve, you cannot see Arguello or any 'Corner' for the cops to go peeling rubber around from there. The only corner visible and available for a standing suspect at Jax & Mple to see cops go spinning around up Hill is Cherry street which we know can't be 'The' corner in question otherwise He, the offender acting in role of witness, would say Yes He has observed a man acting suspicious as it happens, He just ran by waving a gun up there and turned onto Cherry St, that's right officer,running directly back straight to the crime scene He's just vacated, which would instantly make Don go Hmmmmm, not likely Mr Witness!

Rich He can;t see the cops go around the corner from Jackson and Maple which means 'when you have eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains, no matter how improbable it may seem, must be the truth' scenario. Graysmith has to be right! Z sad they went up and onto Arguello, some may ask "Why taker His word for it?" I can reply 'I don't, I take Foukes own admission of 'proceeded on Jackson Street toward Arguello continuing the search....as we arrived at arguello the initial suspect description was changed to that of a WMA....."

Laugh and dismiss Robert as a factually incompetent and misinformed idiot at your own peril. Yes, He did state some fantastical BS in "ALA, the only suspect who knew all the victims, stalked them, had the intelligence to write the codes and letters...." yes, utter Speculation at best, Bull shit at worst, but can't argue with a claim supported by a physical impossibility to see Arguello from Maple on Jackson.

Alex Lewis

10/13/2015 02:09:45 am

If Kjell was and is Zodiac, or part of a conspiracy where He writes the letters or whatever capacity you like and it was in fact Kjell that Don speaks with then Zodiac's declaration 'of 'Two cops pulled a goof' is not accurate.
If Don spoke to Kjell and let him go then while yes, that is a goof because He is the man you want but it is not a goof/error that was made by Don in the sense that if placed in that same situation 50 times Don would detain Kjell 49 times out of 50 because the truth is He wouldn't. He would do the same again, make the same assumption 50 times in a row that a cab drivers just been robbed and killed for the less than $10 He had on Him and here is the last person on the face of the Planet that would have motive to rob a cabbie because He is a multi Millionaire. It would be a case of calling him over, realize who He is, Let us move on.

Rather than criticize Don, I empathize with Him under these circumstances as I'd have made exactly the same assumption on the spot that Kjell is not responsible and in fact, even the notion He may be I would laugh off as absurd. That is until I discover that all is not as it seems and yes, it may have looked like murder in the commission of a robbery, but this was not the motive and turns out it's murder in commission of zodiac doing His thing.

Anyway, Don is lucky He didn't get out the prowl car and aim his gun at Kjell because Kjell is far too important a person for police to go raising weapons at. He tell His friends over at the Bohemian Club and then Mr Fouke would be bundled into a vehicle and drugged and when He awoke wonder why He is tied down to A stone alter with some masked man chanting something about accepting this, oh great Satan, as our sacrifice.

Richard

10/13/2015 04:07:51 am

Expanding on what you said, if Kjell was stopped by Donald Fouke and let on his way, he would hardly write about it one month later saying "2 cops pulled a goof". Believing the one killer, one letter writer, as I do, it would be extremely foolhardy to be Kjell as Zodiac admitting he was stopped. The acclamation of a goof as you alluded, does not suggest that the man who Fouke stopped was known to him.

Richard

10/13/2015 04:13:52 am

I would also assume that Kjell is not a stupid man, having amassed huge wealth from a legitimate business and the idea he would direct a taxicab anywhere close to where he lives and blundering along Jackson Street to enter his residence, in the possession of a blooded shirt and other items is a little hard to swallow. This would be the act of an idiot wanting to get caught.

Alex Lewis

10/13/2015 02:26:48 pm

No I totally agree Rich, if Kjell, knowing He was stopped and spoken to by Police Officers who knew that He was Mr Qvale for Him to then respond with writing a letter appearing to be highly amused at two cops who pulled a good by speaking with him and letting him on his way because His self amusement would be short lasting because the day after police are made aware of this letter and it's claim, Kjells would receive a visit from a SFPD SWAT Team who would politely knock the front door of 3636 Jackson and Kjell be aware He'd made a goof of His own by the door coming off it's hinges and SWAT Officers storming His Living Room.

It goes without saying Rich that Kjell isn't stupid. If He is Z and wrote them describing His encounter with Police then there can be little doubt about it, Kjell knows something that we don't. Kjell is writing 'PS two cops pulled a goof' not at all oblivious to the fact that by saying this, Police will not SFPD will take about 3 seconds to put two and two together and come up A Zodiac. No, Kjell is not stupid and I have always believed that if Kjell was the Zodiac and was the man spoke to by Don then that has to mean that Kjell knows that He will tell them He who He is and there won't be anything they can do about it.
If KJ is Zodiac and He spoke to Don that night then I think that for once we may need to take Zodiac's 'Like I have always said, I am CRACK-PROOF' as literal,
What does the term Crack-Proof imply? Lets use Bullet-proof as a comparison. If one wears a bullet-proof vest Rich, what is it implying to me and you? It implies, to myself anyway, the following:

The person wearing it knows something that we don't. He know that we can pump all 6 rounds from our revolver into His torso and it will make no difference and won't even injure Him let alone kill Him as we are intending to.
Now compare that to Z's crack-proof comment and if literal He is declaring that He, like our vest wearing fictional friend, is simply shielded by something (or someone) that while we may not know it, He does know and know very well that just as a Lead Vest will stop a bullet getting at it's intended target, Kjell has someone protecting Him so that Toschi and Co cannot get to him.

Alex Lewis

11/11/2015 01:46:37 pm

If you don't believe in cops being willing to cover something up or see a suspect as 'too powerful' to arrest, then if you have 40 minutes spare to watch this heart warming tale of survival and endurance then it I would advise people do. It's a cop here who gets shot and still, no arrests are made even though the cops known himself who did it...

https://youtu.be/F1vhRjd28Mo

Alex Lewis

11/11/2015 02:05:14 pm

Even a fellow cop in this documentary states "I would challenge anyone to go to any Police Dpt and ask the question, if one of their own was shot in the line of duty, what would they do? I can tell you their response would be that they are not going to stop investigating until an arrest is made. This did not happen in the town of Falmouth when John Busby was shot."

Alex Lewis

11/7/2015 08:24:52 pm

You know Rich I am beginning to think we should ask, not MikeR, but RobertG, for the details of the PH version of events. RG was seemingly right about Paul picking up His idoling passenger in front of the Westin St. Francis Hotel specific opposed to general Mason & Gary vicinity, I think RG is actually not, as every one assumes, incorrect in the encounter taking place at Jax and Cherry Intersect. and not Jax & Maple. Why? Makes sense.

- Explains the naggin question I have always had of 'Why doesn't Z duck onto a drive or pathway much sooner as He surely must see Fouke coming up street from Jax & Maple/3712 sidewalk or further up hill because Fouke & Zelms are not easy to miss with their air raid like siren blasting and disco light red and blue lights flashing in night time environment. Never made sense to me. If Z turns off Cherry, however, as Don is passed Maple approaching Cherry then no mystery anymore. Z hasn't any time or chance to duck anyhere due to turning the corner and bumping into a prowl car.

- If the late night encounter happens at Jax & Maple with suspect on North side of the street, ie The 3712 Jackson Street house side, then how the hell can 'One of them called me over' as per Z's declaration be taken to me Fouke called Him over? Fouke is furthest away on other side, it's Zelms who's have to be right side of the street for a lumbering male on the North Sidewalk, not Fouke. RG version, no mystery anymore

- Z "They peeled rubber and went around the corner as I had directed them..." How does He see that if turns down Maple? Or up the steps to 3712's driveway for that matter? Are we now to believe He stood there on the pathway of 3712 for 10/15 seconds observing the cop car go uphill to Arguello? RG if correct, makes total sense now and again, no Mystery anymore!

Alex Lewis

11/7/2015 08:36:56 pm

https://youtu.be/TfJYFeTD48Y?t=2m57s

I think RG is right. He seemed to know that of which Harvey Hines stated Toschi told Him also relating to the Zodiac being plucked from the Westin Hotel, Toschi I would assume told Robert this also. Toschi probably told RG that the encounter actually happened at J and C street and not J and M.

Why do people believe Robert's claims are wrong or factually inaccurate? Because He and His claims are not consistent with the 'Official' Version. The 'Official' version which has changed numerous times and never itself been anything close to consistent.

Alex Lewis

11/7/2015 09:41:46 pm

Just speaking to Destry and asked had Oliver, Harvey's brother and, obviously therefore, Destry's Uncle spoke to Him about certain things that Oliver mentioned to me He wanted to speak to Him about. Anyway, long story short & only the relevant part of His response to paste Here was "Hi Alex, he did briefly. I have *3rd party* helping me scan all of my father's papers into the computer. It's going very slow but eventually it will be done. When it is I'll be sure and send it to you."

I asked did He mean His Fathers full 120 page report as if so, Oliver had already sent me this. Destry said no, not the report but the case notes, files and other paper-work He'd unearthed that His Dad had put together and compiled. So, lot's more to come soon and from first hand investigator's notes, documents and details therein which may contain other previously unknown Gems of Info. Watch this space......well, for confirmation anyway, not the info posted itself due to it falling into the possession of Dick Head's with flawed and extremely inaccurate opinions and claims.

Alex Lewis

11/7/2015 09:57:06 pm

Z said "And they peeled rubber & went around the corner as I had directed them...." which in previous discussions we have asked 'What Corner? Can't be Cherry as He'd then be directing cops to go looking for a suspect running toward the scene with a gun rather than away from it. So, must be Arguello which, Don said in the earlier account, He and Zelms continued on Jackson to Arguello Street thus, confirming Z's claim of watching them go around the corner (onto West Pacific Avenue).

Zodiac has no need to say the cops peeled rubber and went uphill to the very last intersection (as if He observed them pass Cherry) and this is likely why He doesn't feel a need to say 'They wen't around the Corner, not at Cherry, but Arguello Streets' because there was only one corner and one Intersect. left to drive to if He is at or near Jackson & Cherry.

Robin Smith

8/15/2015 07:55:56 am

This entire Presidio/SFPD situation just stinks from beginning to end and the Kane/Lass connections are too many to ignore.

I think Kane was finger pointing to several Z suspect with help from Edward Wayne Edwards.

Robert E Hunter Jr's involvement with Kane and Lass is really there but I have not ever been able to see a direct link to Mr Q as a Z suspect. However, someone/s have been determined to make the North Shore/Squaw Valley/Sierra Club targets.

As Hunter was a founding partner in Alpine Meadows and coincidently neighbors again with Mr Q. Both owned, the Qvales at least still do, own Lakefront property with boat houses and lifts at Carnelian Bay. Right off the Lakes deepest point...1,645 ft deep.

SLTPD had a couple of women Blackjack dealers report incidents to them after they read about the Pines Card in 1971. A man wanting to do their "Astrology" charts and using the name Kent Williams. KW was the manager of Claire Tappan Lodge at that time. He was checked out and cleared by SLTPD.

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 01:14:08 am

You know what I have tried to dismiss the persistant repetative thought that will not go away in my mind to explain the whole contradictory, irrational, counter-intuative non countinuity allowable event and it's this, and this is what I just can't get away from as the reason for the cops lying and contradicting each other, witness ID of suspect and report names this suspect yet no report made, no word of possible positive ID, just a footnote at foot of a single document and no mention nor hint is made of this witness, the suspect and who it was, how Witness came to ID him etc and a person on Maple was walking dog Pelissetti says was Qvale, then it wasn't Qvale but the Rebuttal doesn't folllow up with AP telling us "No, it was not Kjell I saw, but a Mr **** ****" No no, AP just says He spoke to a Gentleman walking his dog, and He will tell us who it was not, that being Kjell, but He certainly cannot tell us who it actually was.....bit like Fouke.

The most unavoidable and seemingly logical answer, because it not only explains the hushed up keep quiet Positive ID by witness, but it also explains with clarity why it was that Don never tried to apprehend the White guy. He had to come up with 'Oh, that is because we were told suspect was Black' load of crap. The reason I just cannot get away from is Don saw Him, and recognized him as someone He did not feel He could arrest, same with Pelissetti.

Both decide or feel it to be beyond their own decision making ability and feel they have no choice other than to come up with versions that explain away why they didn't detain man as being Fouke believed suspect was Black at time, Armond's white man had dog, no blood visible, and appeared thinner in description. I can almost guarntee you that the suspect ID'd was ID'd because Don and Armond knew who the saw, realized the remifications and/or the unbelievability of who they knew Zodiac to likey be and took this guys photo to witness who confirmed, yes, thats the guy I saw at the cab.

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 01:29:29 am

And again, this would explain the positive ID being kept under wraps, the inconsistent accounts via two responding units,the non detaining and detail taking of Fouke White Guy (which would be standard even if not as suspect but as witness yet no details requested nor obtained) and also why Fouke is adamantly and emphatically refusing to ever admit stopping and speaing to the guy because He knows should this guy Name be discovered and guilt in the crimes discovered people will be out for Fouke's blood demanding to know how He can speak face to fave with one of his superiors and not be aware of who it was and why has He never disclosed this all these years etc.

Now if anybody can think/come up with a benine alternative explination which can and does show a logial and nderstandable reasoning for Foukes (self admitted and confessed) lies in where it was He actually saw a suspect and the rational theory that gives Fouke the ability to mislead and falsify a sworn statement of facts in a way that makes it acceptable then i'm all ears!

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 02:07:50 am

And it's a very telling response that is seen from this unkown offender when coincidence steps in and a cop station is blasted by a device after Zodiac threatens bombings and has eve sent diagrams. He seems to be almost concerned that they may believe He may be responsible for a crime and makes an outright denial before even being accused:

"I hope you do not think it was I that wiped out the blue meanie with a bomb at the cop station, even though I talkd of killing scholl children with one."

He seems rather concerned with the very notion they may believe He may be responsible and it makes no sense considering He seems to be waging this war against police challenging them, yet He seems to be under a sort of assumption that is suggestive of knowing the limits of his potential crack-proof status and if it were suspected He was blowing up cops with explosive devices then He knows they'd go after him with legal view to arrest, or abandon acting within boundaries & just hunt him down and kill him.

Now if I am seen to be waging a war against a specifc group or industry, let's say I seem to hate Lawyers, Barristers, members of the bar per say, and I was ranting and raving about Lawers I refer to as slug slime, saying none shall convict me as I am too clever etc etc, then if a Lawyer was on day gunned down my a masked intruder bursting into Courtroom, I should either be more than hapoy to take credit direclty, or at very least, say nothing but allow the idea and suspected belief to be a possiblity.
If not directly incriminate myself,then show a huge support for the offing of the Court-Room Slug. Denial and seeming concern i;d be suspected is not the expected recation of a slug hating indetained murder suspect.

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 03:07:22 am

I'll askk this hypothetical question and then leave it at that....

What do you think Don and Eric will do if and when they pull up to discover the man is a high ranked superior of theirs? Get out and throw him to the ground face first slapping the cuffs on? No chance what-so-ever, they are taught and trained to respect and take orders from their superiors, not arrest them on sight for comitting homicide. And if Toschi were Zodiac as an example, Toschi would know this all to well and his running into petty patrol cops woldn't really be a bother, he knows He is much superior to them in Rank and position.

Not just that hierachy in play to make arrest almost impossible but imagine the revelation being made to the San Francisco general public 'Oh by the way, Toschi who is paid and trusted to protect you and bring to justice them who commit homicides, is himself, it can be announced, the San francisco Zodiac Serial Killer......Any questions from the press plase?"

They just would never disclose this type of discovered info because at a time when the counter-cultur was in full swing along with a mistrust and loathing for authority this type of public disclosure would take a lack of trust in authority and replace it with that aswel as hate, public revolt &probably rioting and attacks on Police would sky rocket.

Close rank, keep this information known to a very small and select few would likely be the party line that must be towed.

Richard

9/8/2015 05:40:18 am

Not only higher ranked, but well known, a man of higher standing, Kjell Qvale or may I be so bold as to say the inert prejudice that was ingrained within the police force, not just San Francisco but worldwide. Some of the statements Donald Fouke said on 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' could be interpreted negatively and by today's politically correct standpoint could be inferred as being biased. I am not saying Donald Fouke was any different than many officers, just that this stereotyping must have occurred. Yet the reverse appeared to be the case in the documentary. He said "I assumed he didn't live in the neighbourhood, an upper middle class neighbourhood, I don't know if he lived there or not, let the inspectors follow through."
Roughly translated "I assumed he didn't live at 3712 Jackson Street, because he was a tramp." So if the man was walking into a stairwell leading to a front door and you assumed he didn't live there because he dressed like a lower class of citizen, surely this would have peaked your suspicions. Evidently not. However if the man had a top hat and tails, with nearly embroidered cuffs and a cravat, nothing would look untoward and this wouldn't have peaked your suspicions either. So what is this mumbled nonsense all about. Well basically what Donald Fouke is saying is that even if a pantomime horse was trotting up the stairs with a carrot dangling from its neck, carrying Cinderella wearing a size 10 and a half shoe, singing three steps to heaven and tossing onions into the street, he still wouldn't have stopped them. Why, well just let the inspectors follow through. Yes that is a great idea Donald, the inspectors can follow through one hour later when the Zodiac is already tucked up in bed 30 miles away. You are right Alex he maybe wouldn't have detained a celebrity or a high ranking person, but quite frankly he didn't detain the 'out of place' tramp that didn't belong in Presidio Heights either. In fact himself claiming he didn't stop anybody that night makes it even worse, why not, there is a lumbering misfit entering a 3 million dollar house and this raised no questions. On the other hand he did describe him right down to his Calvin Klein underpants, sorry Marks and Spencer grundies, he was of lower standing I seem to recall. Something followed through that night and it wasn't the inspectors, it was into Donald Fouke's underpants when he realized the shit had hit the fan and the killer was now away and clear, buttering scones and sipping Earl Grey in the Julius Khan Playground, stroking nasally challenged sniffer dogs.

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 09:00:54 am

Rich you said:

"I assumed he didn't live at 3712 Jackson Street, because he was a tramp." So if the man was walking into a stairwell leading to a front door and you assumed he didn't live there because he dressed like a lower class of citizen, surely this would have peaked your suspicions."

Your misinterpreting what Dom meant here Rich. Don is not talking about the guy He spots going up steps toward the house as the guy He assumed didn't live there, quite the opposite actually.

Need to visit Don's other comment about this guy to understand who He's talking about because He states in regard to this guy He see's on Jackson..."Seeing that it was a White Male, in an affluent neigbourhood, we DIDN'T THINK IT WAS THE SUSPECT..." and this is the same guy who turns up the steps.

What Don by "I assumed He didn't live in the neighbourhood" He as in the real and true suspect whoever He may be,He assumed that this cab killer wouldn't live in an upscale Presidio Heights, and He states He didn't think the White guy He encountered was out of place or the sduispect they were after, "We didn't think it was the suspect..." hence his then saying 'I didn't think about it report because I assumed He did not live there" He the actual offender, and the white Guy on Jackson He though did belong there.

Don is saying this guy turning up the steps He didn't tink about in his report because He had simply not connsidered this guy out of place but He is referring to the suspect

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 09:17:13 am

Again the implication here Don is giving is along the lines of, "Well I took a look at the guy coming down Jackson, saw He was white, observed his attire and decied He was dressed like someone that belonged to this specific are and so, seeing it was A White Male,in this affluent neighbourhood, we didn't think it was our suspect.'

Which is absolute bollox if you excuse the terminology. He didn't see him and allow him on his way based on He being White and dressed like a person belonging there. He gotta say that I suppose because the alternative is the truth, He let Him go because He saw him, recognized him as a person He knew Lived there or was influential enough to be associated with another who did reside in that area.

Obviously, you cannot delcare this as the case if you are pretnding you did not recognize therefore not know this guy on Jackson

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 09:39:32 am

I mean it so obvious Don recognized this white guy more so due to what He did not rather than anyhting He did.

The moment opens His mouth to Declare "Seeing it was a white male, in an affluent neighbourhood, walking along the stree, we didn't think it was the suspect" I would be instantly, him hardly having ended this claim, responding with "Well Ok that doesn't sound very sound and solid ground to eliminate him as suspectbut never mind Don, instead I am sure you leapt from the squad called this guy to you and questioned him about possibly seeing anything out of the ordinary before asking him for his name, address and reason for his presence there followed by securing His ID for potentia future crime reports and logging of potential suspect/witnesses at the Maple Intersection, I mean this is, after all Donald, the most basic of 'must 'do's if and when you encounter a man out close to a homicide scene. . . .?

What, you did not ask this man what his Name was Don? Are you serious Mr Fouke? I mean, one does not need to call upon, or to have had, police training for this to be something you'd do automatially, 2nd nature..... What the Hell do you mean you did not get this man's name? This is literally Don, unbelievable! I don't believe you Don!"

But this the silent smoking hun here, right here with this very act. It is not that Did do here, it's what He is claiming not to have done. And because He claims He didn't get thisguys name when He is right there, this again would lean to yet another reason why Don won't admit He ever stopped to speak to him, because He knows first the person He tells He did speak to the guy is going to come back with is "Who was He, if you spoke to this guy you must have got his name."

Alex Lewis

9/8/2015 10:05:50 am

Rich can't you see the forrest in front of you becaue yoir blinded by too many trees?
Everything Don has said and claimed when you really look at it it becomes completely clear that Don has done is built his version of what happened, every little detail and thing, is designed and clearly intended to be structred around He simply passing by the white guy without spoeaking to, nor recognizing him. As you look at the big pcture you can see what Don has done, reverse engineering or, in rewing if you will, back over the actual events and structuring his story and version around it. He cannot do this in real time as it happes because He doesn't know what is about to happen, that anyone is on Jackson let along someone He may know etc. Clearly, he's lookd back and worked out a scenario to not have him encounter the guy u close by doing something like this.....

- Zodiac had referenced the encounter! s***! What can we say and do to get out of this....Yes good idea, we'll say black male came over radio as the BOLO.
- Even then people will still have expected us to stop and speak to the guy, which we did but we can't say that because then we'll have to say ofcourse we know who it was. What if we suggest that this man was with middle class appearace, dressed rather suitable and that as we come uphill the man appeared to turn which then led to to a belief 'He's going home'? Thats what we'll say, we have no choice. We didn't call him we'll attempt to offer because, We were der assumption that our guy was NMA.
- Now see what if the identity of this guy comes out down the line, we'll have to give a pre-arraged answer to the public as to how could we have passed our colleague, and not recognized him? Well, we have said He turned away up some steps, back to us and we didn't really get a good look at his face and eyes,, because it was fairly dark you understand?
-We will the declare we cruized on up Jackson turning southboun on Cherry where we will Mr A.P one of the responders that had responded directly to the scene stoped us and we all "AWWWW, NEVER,WELL GOD DAMN IT! YOU SAY SUSPECT IS WHITE? YOU;LL NEVER BELIEVE WHO JUST JUST PASSED ON WAY UP HERE, ONLY THIS VERY SAME DESCRIPTIVE MALE!

Amazing isn't it how every thing seems to be one fact after anther after another that seems to have some sort of outside guidance seing to it that everything happening is happening with a intention to allow Fouke to not stop and speak with nor have reason to detain this guy to get his details.
He knws very very well who it was.

Robin Smith

8/15/2015 09:58:26 am

The bus bomb letter was written a month AFTER the murder of Stein?...ouh oh...that means that Z could have been an observer of the cops stopping Q or whoever

Robin Smith

8/15/2015 02:17:57 pm

This Toschi cop has not been discussed on the 11/9 or any other of these Stine murder links I can find but I see that he was accused of forging the PINES CARD....s***...

I'll be back

Richard

8/15/2015 08:25:43 pm

It was the 1978 letter he was accused of forging;This letter was thought to have been created by Dave Toschi, a San Francisco Police detective, after earlier fan mail he had sent to himself was compared to the 'I am back with you' letter and deemed to be authored by him, according to Armistead Maupin who joined the San Francisco Associated Press in 1971, and went on to launch nine novels that included the popular Tales of the City series.
It was thought he had created the latest letter in an attempt to keep the story alive in the media. Dave Toschi, was cleared of any wrongdoing.

Alex Lewis MBE OBE CBE

9/1/2015 03:06:17 pm

The 78 'I am back with you' letter is quite interesting in that Sherwood Morill was adamant and unwavering in his certainty that the 1978 letter was genuine and was from Zodiac stating:

"This is not a forgery or fake written by Toschi! It's consistent with the previous writing seen in Zodiac letters.If Dave Toschi wrote this latest letter then He wrote all the Zodiac letters & is the Zodiac."

OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! SPECULATION WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE! SUSTAINED!!

I don't for s second want to even hint at such outragous stupidity! I mean Dave T returns to the scene of the Zodiac's last crime every single year on Oct 11 and has done for 44 years straight! Serial Killlers have never been known to return to the scene of their crimes to re-live it, it's simply absurd!

Robin Smith

10/17/2015 09:03:05 am

Trawling through all these posts is a lifetime pursuit in its self!

I now am unsure of exactly how many people were in this cab of Stine between Mason and Geary and Washington and Maple.

Other/s may have been in the cab and got out at Washington and Maple.

Richard

10/17/2015 09:53:38 am

That is a really good question, maybe his accomplice to get the car ready. Do they allow dogs in American taxicabs, if so, he gets out and trundles up Maple and bumps into Pelissetti later. Yes I hope we don't get to 500 posts, it could take half an hour to scroll to the bottom.

Robin Smith

10/17/2015 11:17:17 am

Whether or not the Zsearchers believe it or not..

.Larry Kane, Robert E Hunter and Kjell Qvale knew each other. Paul Stine and Larry Kane knew each other. It was common practice to 'share' cabs in the day...

.As a matter of fact more than one 'player' hung out at Mason and Geary in the day. From Ed Edwards and his Aunt Beatrice worked in the Bar O'Douls at the corner of Mason and Geary to Hunter and his bunch at the St Francis.

Alex Lewis

10/25/2015 06:16:19 am

Robin: "Whether or not the Zsearchers believe it or not..

.Larry Kane, Robert E Hunter and Kjell Qvale knew each other."

Well that may not be as absurd as I expect some will claim it to be scoffing: "Qvale, a highly successful Businessman running several Businesses that regularly annual turnover of multiple millions and Kane, a petty low life criminal who once went and almost begged Dorfman for a $5,000 loan....which was refused. PAHH!"

But, Qvale had a dealership in Alameda County and Kane, according to one press article I read was referred to as "Kane, a Former Car Dealer from Alameda County...."

And let's not forget Kane seemed to like sports type vehicles too, the kind sold by Kjell and was known to drive a white MG Sports car, convertible with spoked wheels. Kjell imported a huge number of British Sport Cars. Is it beyond all reason to believe there is at least a possibility Kane and Qvale were at least known to each other on a most basic working type level due to their both being in the same trade?

Robin Smith

10/25/2015 08:27:30 am

Back in the 'day' Alex and you at your age being across the 'pond' just don't know what it was like here.

These people were from the WWll bunch...born in the 20's. Kane was a hot shot and connected. No one wants to hear about his mother but she fits in here big time.

Think about THE GODFATHER. No cell phones, computers. According to just one of the articles Gal500 provided Kane was an entertainer and man about town. He had a high life style and was a thief back then!!

All these people SINATRA MARILYN KENNEDY GIANCANA literally hung out here at Las Vegas and in Reno and SAN FRANCISCO. Like it was their living room. They did as they pleased and NO one dared to or wanted to go against them

To think that KANE, who planned his Shirley Carmel heist with someone he chance met in a bar...people like Ed Edwards was going around on TV. TV was a really big deal in the day and those TV connected people ruled! Private planes were a really big deal and few had them. Shit commercial airlines were only for a few!!! Trains with private cars and on and on.

There are actually some people still hanging onto the Cosby myth of him not guilty.

Alex things were waay different in the 1940's and 50's than they are now

Robin Smith

10/25/2015 09:20:28 am

Chips are falling over here Alex!...the oldies 85-95 yrs are dying off and the younger 65-75yrs from the same era...same players they were just youngsters then. Now we have the COLD CASE people stirring shit up and they are more vicious than the old ones were. These people know I was here...

they don't know what I know...but they know I was here and I know who they are and who they were doing it with.

My ex..the Sicilian whose parents both got off the boat was a PERSONAL friend of KANE and MALOFF and KARADANIS.

Kane was a Tex Watson...a NUT...an asshole...a pervert.

MONEY MONEY MONEY aside...there is NO statute of limitations on MURDER these people are nervous and well should be. I feel somewhat sorry for their families but it is their legacy....the Z factor waa not some random coincidence...neither was Paul Stine or Darlene Ferrin and he/she/it cannot be overlooked. Washington and Maple for instance...

Bruce Davis is up for parole again....he KNOWS it all and HE is NOT going to give it up....however Nancy Pitman is still running around loose. Of course with Bruce's history with ex President Gerald Ford all but cements his fate...Fords son was dumped by Beth Wilson and became an alcoholic. Beth married Bruce in prison and they have a daughter.

Yes I met them all...right here in Lake Tahoe 1965-1969...they were all in and about TAHOE.

Richard

8/15/2015 08:53:32 pm

If that were the case why would he claim two cops stopped him and it is highly unlikely he would of hung around observing cops questioning other people, unless he was looking out of his residence window and there is no evidence he entered any house on Jackson Street. It seems likely considering the timeline of Donald Fouke and Zodiac that they indeed would have crossed each others paths somewhere near the intersection of Jackson and Maple. Fouke got the radio message at 9.55 pm, but whatever time it was it takes 90 seconds from the Washington/Predidio Ave intersection. But Zodiac by 9.55 pm already had the jump probably leaving the crime scene 90 second prior to Fouke receiving the radio call, let's say 9:53:30. Zodiac would arrive on foot at Jackson/Maple about 9:56:30, Fouke arrives 9:56:30, BINGO, collision course and almost certainly verifies what Zodiac claimed in the Bus Bomb Letter. His claims of entering the park are backed up, because this is where he last saw the suspect heading. Ok he didn't have to enter the park, it could have been a feint, but one can only try to make sense of the case from the reports, statements and timelines and anything to do with Kjell Qvale is dependent on whether you buy into the QJ link of which I have yet to be convinced. Lets be honest anybody living in Jackson Street or nearby could have been the killer, but then again so could anyone in San Francisco, Vallejo or Benicia. The man that Fouke passed in the street is the most viable suspect and the timeline suggests this, it's not proof, but it's the best we have.

Alex Lewis

9/1/2015 08:00:17 pm

I don't think Toschi was the secret pal of Paul Avery, I am just stating what Morill said in defense, as He meant it, of Dave Toschi.

But I shall, just because I can, respond to some of your questions like Pelissetti with a red light and siren and get there very quickly. . .

"If that were the case why would he claim two cops stopped him?"

Well if I am head of Homicide Dpt and I know that me being seen on or near the scene of crime and patrol cops suspect me of being responsible and yet I know they are not permitted to state publically they had seen me personally then, I can say anything I want.
I mean I could make an argument if I wanted to for Toschi being a suspect using points like the one above, followed by pointing out that if we assume Toschi did not forge the 78 letter then someone in a position of power made the public claim of suspecting He to have done so, which ruined his career and saw him slung out of Homicide demoted to security duty. Armstrong wasn't treated this way, nor do we see Chief of Insp. Marvin Lee reassigned to desk duties to investigate dog fouling.

Maybe you could flip the coin and say Toschi was not himself Z, but He had specific info given to him that allowed him to know or strongly suspect someone else he knew was and, whispers of his wanting to go public, was dethroned and warned His career is now dead, He will be also if He opens his mouth.

Now people will assume I endorse Toschi as Zodiac, or if himself not Zodiac, has serious reason to believe He knows who is.
These people, as Berkowitz alluded to in His case, they won't think twice about destroying you, their are a small number of highly influential people politicaly connected and if they want to get to you, they will. Now, I don't believe theabove is the truth as per SF and Z and so I am wasting my time and energy making the suggestion I do above. I don't subscribe to it, but my belief in something makes no difference or has no impact or influence on whether that thing be factually true or not.
The truth and factuality of a thing doesn't care nor know of me, it just exists as the truth and will do so no matter what disinformation and contradictions are put out there to muddy already murky waters.
Truth and accuracy are still as crystal clear under the murky layer of falsehood.

Richard

9/2/2015 02:12:53 am

"Truth and accuracy are still as crystal clear under the murky layer of falsehood."
That was a bit deep Alex, have you been reading Keats, it was that deep I nearly lost you in the murky waters of Presidio Heights, lost forever in a sea of swimming lies, never to emerge into the crystal waters of truth, to be forever hidden from the clutches of the cascading embrace of light.

Alex Lewis

9/2/2015 01:02:10 pm

This is the reason why I will not visit and traverse the streets surronding the area of The Presidio, apparantly many have got lost and never seen again. One giant mass of confusion for any visitor as Mr Pelissetti can be seen suffering the effectd thereof: ""Got down to the corner of Maple. Decsion No.2 'which way to go?' Looked to the Left toward the Presidio & saw absolutely nothing, it was much darker there and I figured the chances of finding someone was almost Nill.' Armond is confuddled trying to work out which way to go, too dark to turn left down Maple so lets go right istead and turns on his heels and gets another Heart stopping fright.... "JESUS H, Kjell H Qvale!!!"
Turning to Walk back up Jackson, a vehicle parallel to his position backfires: BANG...BANG... echoes the reports as Armond throws himself head first over a wall..... "SHOTS FIRED, SHOTS FIRED...OFFICER DOWN! ***cough***....IF I DON'T MAKE IT OUT OF HERE, TELL FOUKE NOT TO BLAME HIMSELF FOR MY DEATH....EVEN THOUGH IT REALLY IS ALL HIS FAULT."

Fellow SFPD Patrol Sgt Fouke did not see this encounter as He Had driven straight into the middle of the Presidio Grounds repeating "I don't get it Eric!! Where is the guy? He just went toward a house on Jackson so I just don't get why He's not in J Kahn Park!!

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 09:07:31 am

Kjell Qvale, (pronounced as SHELL KAH-VAH-LEE) involvement is initially due to Armond's claim which He made then did not make regarding Kjell being on the street a block away from the scene & cab and when I say on the street I mean his driveway at 3636 which it then became. Whether there was a dog with Kjell or not I have no idea but I do think He was out walking the dog as I came across a feature online that was regarding KJ's horse Silky Sullivan. Anyway, the photograph the article had to go with it was Kjell with his dog smiling for the camera and the caption under the photo stated this was Kjell with his dog that lived on the Ranch along with his other animals and a care-taker that takes full time care of the animals.

So Kjell's dog was always on his Ranch and never, which make sense really, roaming his huge multi-million Dollar mansion on Jax St.

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 09:09:18 am

Do not think He would likely have and be out with a dog that above comment was meant to proclaim.

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 09:22:38 am

Was Kjell someway and somehow involved? Be abrave man to bet all he had that Qvale certainly wasn't involved even if as the author only of Z's letters.
I'm fairy accepting that the consistent size and build of the actual killer, and his supposed round and large face, is not how you'd describe KJ at all. However, the reasons He is deserving of his place among the suspects?

Armond P. Can't decide where Kjell was, on Maple walking a dog when He see's him or on the confines of his own dive pathway of 3636. Then He's 'In for a penny, in for a Pound' as Armond decides He now decides Kjell wasn't the man He spoke to at the Intersection of Maple & Jackson Streets on the sidewalk that was also the house pathway at same time and now declares for and on behalf of Ka-Vah-lee that Mike's suspect has an alibi.

Point No. 2, KJ's printing. Extremely similar to that of the printing of Zodiac in the letters.

Is suspicious in his named absence from any report, reports that Rich points out are excessive in the 1 and half pages of it :-)
If KJ is not named because He genuinely wasn't the man AP spoke to, why would AP claim He was when AP was assuming He was speaking in private conversation? He surely has a duty to the public to disclose who this mystery man was be it KJ or another?

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 11:09:14 pm

I'm going to give you examples now of just how to read into comments made or take them out of context, deem suspicious etc that were uttered by Qvale.

"I don't have many regrets, I did the things I like to do." Hmm, you mean kinda like the other guy who said 'I like killing people because it is so much fun.'

"I don't want to spend Millions of Dollars on a Horse because it may never win a single race. I only remember the good things I have done in my life, and for 65 years+ now I have never been scared of a challenge and have taken many risks in my life so I really do not mind taking a risk, although sometimes that can be deadly."

Odd way to end the comment, taking a business risk isn't something that can be described as deadly surely.

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 11:16:28 pm

Rich you have heard me previously make mention that when asked to recall his encounter with Un-Sub White Guy, Fouke sighs and avoids looking into the camera. Well take a look at this mate, FF to 2:00 of the clip and first oddity I noticed was the questioners "What did you see when you came DOWN this road....." Down? Down Jackson you mean?

Also, if Fouke doesn't look shifty and his unwillingness to look at the camera or the interviewer as He states "I think I second guessed myself that night. Should have stopped and talked to him, but we didn't."

https://youtu.be/_xE1veHknVo

Richard

8/17/2015 11:54:11 pm

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 04:24:40 am

"We should have stopped and talked to him" would have sufficed, but the addition of "but we didn't" seems like a rebuttal, a defensive remark not very convincing at that, especially when you consider in two documentaries Armond Pelissetti twice remarked that the Zodiac had effectively been stopped by Donald Fouke"

Good points. And what, or who more accurately, is this rebuttal aimed at and in response to what? "But we didn't." Interviewer never claimed you did Don, not necessary to refute, rebut or deny an allegation if nothing is being alleged at that particular moment. It's almost like Don is pre-conceiving or assuming that if He left it at 'Should have stopped and talked to Him.' that interviewer would have replied with "Which some people claim is exactly what you did do, Right?" So, Airing on gthe side of caution of the paranoid kind, He denies a claim that has not yet been leveled at him and deny it in advance before you have the chance to be accused/called a liar again.

Speak to a mind pre-occupied with and well aware of the absoute and complete denial of one word said between man and cop that night to the point where He is over eager, like the Defendant put before a HJudge who gets as far as telling the accused "You are charged with five Offences committed on or about the 17th of......" before the Defendant interrupts "Not Guilty to all charges Your Honor!" Judge explains He cannot enter A Plea yet as He doesn't know what He's being Charged with and the dismissive defendant replies "Irrelevant!! I am not guilt of doing anything ever. So I know in advance I am able to deny it because I did not do anything or am not guilty of everything! Case Dismissed, Judge?"

Alex Lewis

10/6/2015 10:46:35 pm

"and I certainly cannot believe he would actually implicate another officer, unless it was true."

Armond said directly didn't He that "I believe that Fouke would have been honest, however, that scratch He wrote and what He had told me do not coincide." Armond then follows this by offering us His own idea as to why Don may have told Him one thing, and wrote another in the memo saying "It seemed that, in that amount of time, Officer Fouke felt that He had stopped the Zodiac." Before ending with "Well, was it the Zodiac? I don't know. It would be a point of conjecture at this time. I feel bad for him if He believes that was the Zodiac, I don't think it was."

Richard

8/18/2015 12:12:39 am

But answer me this Alex, you know how long it would take Fouke to reach Cherry when he received the broadcast (2 min max), so you know that no way could he bump into Pelissetti in the upper reaches of Cherry, Pelissetti would be still present at Washington and Cherry. I mean how long precisely did Pelissetti take to reach the scene. It was surely longer than 30 seconds to arrive, park up and exit his vehicle. If it was two minutes as I have read elsewhere, then Fouke is already entering Cherry before Pelissetti has even exited the police car and ushered the teenagers back to the alcove, never mind the rest of it. Fouke had to have made a diversion not withstanding any chat with Zodiac. And if he was heading up to the Arguello/ WPA area you then have to ask who pointed him in that direction if not Zodiac, after all he should have been responding to Washington and Cherry.

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 01:21:24 am

Well let's assume that Armond did send out 'A' Broadcast over the radio, I don't personally think it was an amended racial description but rather a simple update, something letting other units in the area this is not a Cab Driver assault and or lone robbery, but a murder, and the suspect is, according to on scene witnesses, only 30 seconds to a minute ago went down Cherry turning right toward Maple on Jackson.
Well, maybe Fouke had been doing a general sweep of the surrounding area when Armond issues this and his showing up at Jax & Maple would then be no coincidence at all but rather, based on Armonds broadcast. Maybe this is why Zodiac did not see Don coming and duck behind a car, into a drive, or one of the alcoves because Fouke gets Armonds broadcast of suspect literally heading in his direction right about now and as such, Don turns off his overhead lights, slows to his stated Approx. speed of 35MPH (which is not anywhere near appropriate responding speed for a homicide committed minutes before. 50 to 60 slowing for intersections only would seem more realistic, He is in an 'Emergency response vehicle' responding the most serious of emergencies/crimes, A Homicide, going a casual 35 MPH? Why?

And I don't think in all likely-hood Don did encounter Armond because Don likely sped off up the hill past Cherry to Arguello & onto West Pacific and conducted his search. Finding nothing, drives back around to Arguello toward Cherry and noticed Armond coming bk up Jackson?

But again Rich, the above is in the realm of 'Hypothetically speaking' or 'Theoretically speaking' until one or both tell the truth of what it is the know and or/saw that they are deliberately concealing.

Recognized by his Peers as 'The Man' so to speak of Behavioral profiling and an expert in the ranks of the FBI that travels the States Teaching the Art of Profiling to FBI Agents in training said of Armond Pelissetti's ever changing versions and the explanation for it that "Because what Mr Pelissetti is saying is not the truth and this is why He keeps getting the detail mixed up."

Opinion yes, but one from the expert that should know and is trained to take a set of circumstances, or observe closely the available evidence, then based on this, come up with the likely offender. I suppose, in theory anyway, it would work no different for examining Armonds claims closely, then determining by facts and claims made, Armond is confusing the detail because He's 'elaborating details' or 'dismissing anything serious seen by by himself' or generally twisting or misrepresenting the facts as He knows them to be, but that He is outright Not being truthful about what happened in the overall general

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 01:25:24 am

Sorry, 'The Man' in question I meant to state is Richard Walter.

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 01:30:22 am

You know what Richard, this will be controversial I know and up will go the conspiracy theorist flags and scoffs by those flying them, but it truly and honestly would be no shock nor surprise to me if it were announced tomorrow that Former SFPD Inspector A Pelissetti has been arrested for conspiracy to conceal the identity of The Zodiac Killer, a piece of information He gained knowledge of on October 11 of 1969.

Alex Lewis

10/27/2015 01:43:58 pm

Well Armond says He received the radio broadcast of the details and location of the crime, realises He is very close by to the given location, hit His lights and siren and responded to that location getting there very quickly. So what we can say is we know that He is alerted and responds at 5 to ten that night, and if He gets to the scene before Fouke and Zelms do which is what the claim says then, Armond must have been within 2 maybe 3 blocks of the scene when Hitting the lights and siren because when Fouke gets this same radio broadcast He is on Presidio Avenue near the Intersection of Washington Street and using Google Map Directions from Presidio and Washington Intersection to Wash & Chy Streets it's a distance of 0.7 of a Mile and time from Point A to B (within speed limit) is 3 minutes. Fouke was doing between 35 and 45 MPH so you cut the 3 mins in half if 45 in a 25MPH zone and say 90 seconds is exactly Don Foukes ETA and so for Armond to arrive before Don, well, Armond must be sat at the Intersection waiting for Zodiac almost

Robin Smith

10/27/2015 04:18:34 pm

Looks like Armond knew what was going on...was AP in uniform?

Richard

8/18/2015 01:38:31 am

This is what Pelissetti said at 14:57 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiQ81-rJAgw&feature=youtu.be
"The conjecture is that this was the Zodiac, was it, I don't know, he didn't see any blood on that person's clothing and believe me, based on the crime scene there would have been a lot of blood on that person."
Well this is simply not the case, the Zodiac could have had little if any blood on him. Let's head back to the taxicab, if Zodiac had shot Paul Stine from the rear passenger seat he may have acquired some back spatter on his right hand and the gun. Now let us assume the murder took place at Washington and Cherry, when Paul Stine receives the fatal shot he slumps immediately to his right and ends up with his head in the passenger side floor well, this is where the large pooling of blood is found, even Pelissetti states this is Stine's position in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking.' Now it is logical if he fell right and into the well or even dragged there by Zodiac, his back area of his shirt is exposed, rip the segment of shirt and your off. The teenagers said they observed the assailant in between the driver and passenger seat, with the head of Paul Stine over his lap. But this is sixty feet away at night, their interpretation could have been sketchy at best. They thought he appeared to wipe down both the front passenger side and driver side doors and 'appeared' is correct, they couldn't see the passenger side doors from their vantage point and Zodiac may have himself have obscured any view of the driver side door. The teenagers said Zodiac was in between the driver and passenger seat, with the head of Paul Stine over his lap. I don't buy this, he may have been leaning over Paul Stine tearing off a piece of shirt from his exposed back, but sitting on the seat with the cabbies head in his lap, no chance, I know Zodiac wasn't the full ticket, but imagine it, you have just shot a taxicab driver in the head, blood is gushing from the wound, so you position his head in your lap knowing you are unnecessarily smothering yourself in blood and also knowing you are having to walk away from the scene in a built up area, even the Zodiac isn't that mad. Paul Stine's head was in the well, all he had to do was either lean over into the taxicab or sit on the edge of the seat where there was minimal spatter. In all likelihood Zodiac had a little blood on his right hand (hence the blooded fingerprints) and possibly a small amount of blood transfer to the rear of his dark trousers. He wipes his hands with the shirt piece or handkerchief, the only blood visible on him is effectively a bit on the back of his dark trousers, an area not visible to Donald Fouke if he is questioning him, unless he asks him to do the hokey-cokey. This idea that Zodiac must have been immersed in blood is a something that was just not necessarily the case. The idea he would place Paul Stine's head in his lap is laughable if it wasn't such a serious topic.

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 01:58:12 am

". I don't buy this, he may have been leaning over Paul Stine tearing off a piece of shirt from his exposed back, but sitting on the seat with the cabbies head in his lap, no chance, I know Zodiac wasn't the full ticket, but imagine it, you have just shot a taxicab driver in the head, blood is gushing from the wound, so you position his head in your lap knowing you are unnecessarily smothering yourself in blood and also knowing you are having to walk away from the scene in a built up area, even the Zodiac isn't that mad."

Made that exact point myself Rich over at Morfs site. I suggested that sue to the noted foggy conditions and the cab's overhead light being on above the two interior cab occupants that, combining a fog and possible trick of the light effect which made it simply only appear Paul Bleeding head was resting nicely in Z's crotch saturating him with blood when, in fact, He may have simply leaned in and over Paul's body to access his prized shirt pieces.

Why the hell would anyone, sane or insane, decide to open the cab door, take a seat inside, then pull Paul over and onto your lap where his head now rests soaking you in blood to acquire his shirt tails when He can simply achieve this very same goal by opening door, pushing Paul over onto the seats so He's no laid out across the front cab seating area, before He then leans in and over the deceased to cut pieces of his shirt off?

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 08:25:58 am

Well the blood and offender possibility of offender being covered in Paul Blood, here is what I can say based on seeing it happen in a real taxi driver murder after his in car concealed security camera (hidden inside the interior of the passenger side front door pointing across directly at the drivers area) captured him stop with his passenger sat directly behind him, the passenger then is seen to stealthily rest his hand on the rest of the drivers seat behbind the drivers head and before the driver even knows anything about it, He is shot in the side of the Head and you see the specs the river is wearing literally get blown riight off the drivers face and the no falling or slumping over to the side, no spasms or violent reaction at all just the almost instant rush of blood pouring like a free-flowing stream down the drivers shirt who is himself stil sat upright and the only thing that slumps is his head when the suspect starts to manhandle the body to look for cash.

It really is a disturbing video to watch and I watched it to try and get an understanding of what Paul had happen to him, the reaction or lack thereof to being shot in the head, and the type of blood that is lost from the head area and whether it be gushing from the wound itself or, as it turned out to be, the victims nose.

Paul's shirt down the front of it, based on the cab driver execution style uder video I forced myself to watch to l;earn the mechanics and blood flowing from where and what direction the streaming flow of bllod runs asn per Gravity etc, Paul's shirt down the front of it, should have had a significant mass of blood covering it.
And guess who the killer turned out to be that was caught on camera shooting and killing the cab driver? A serving police officer who cameras rolled as He was dragged out of a march drill and arrested for murder. His motive? Drug habit that had spiraled into complete addiction.

Richard

8/19/2015 07:51:38 pm

Are you on about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2FVwJkvFrc
Absolutely horrendous cowardly attack, no emotion at all.
It is quite possible Paul Stine had started to turn to the right to request payment. At the same time the killer had raised his 9mm semi-automatic towards the right side of Paul Stine's face. In a split second realizing the uncomfortable truth and with his right arm wedged between his body and the seat rear, instinctively raised his left hand in a desperate bid to block, deflect or grab the assailants gun, however he was unfortunately a fraction too late, as the muzzle ejected it's deadly contents. This may explain the dark mark found on the dorsal side of Paul Stine's left hand at autopsy.
The taxicab driver in the above video was stationary whereas Paul Stine's position at the moment the fatal shot was fired is unknown, but you'll notice in the above video Gregorio Moreira José Zambrano's glasses fell forward, Paul Stine may have been leaning and facing to the right hence it would not be unusual to find his glasses in the passenger side well or for him to have slumped over. However looking at the blood pattern on Paul Stine's shirt it is highly unlikely he slumped over immediately and was either pushed or pulled over a set time after being shot, similar to what that cowardly bastard did in the above video. But you will notice the assailant is not covered in blood as we have said and if he had entered the right front passenger side door as Zodiac is suspected of doing, simply leaning into the taxicab and removing the shirt piece, there is no reason to have any blood on his person. And I must stress just because the taxicab drivers glasses fell off in the above video at the moment of impact, doesn't mean they did in Paul Stine's case, they could have been partiality dislodged and fell off when he was pushed or pulled to the right. The coward in the above video shot the victim in the back of the head, whereas Paul Stine received his injury anterior to his right ear, a different angle of released energy from the gun.

Alex Lewis

8/25/2015 04:36:49 pm

"Are you on about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2FVwJkvFrc"

Yeah mate thats the one. It's no so much much the gore or volience in the act that got to me seeing this, but the absolutely senseless nature of killing the driver. And as you said, the cowardly way in which it was done from behind and on the blind-side of the driver who is working because Her's just wanting to support His family.

I see that clip and I try to think of the appropriate words or phrase to describe the backseat passenger and I just can't find strng enough wording in the Englsh Language to get the feelings across.
This would be an almost exact sequence of events and happenings that Paul suffered at the hand of his killer, who Himself was also a patetic coward. These are the types of men who legends in their own minds, real brave hard cases who are not afraid to kill another in broad daylight. But that's in Zodiac's own Reality where proof is needed to confirm to himself He is a real man. I'd love to have met him in a controled environment such as an average sized empty room with door locked, offering Him No access to weapons and I would directly up to him and into hHis personsl space to say: "I've heard some declare you A Super Criminal,I've watched others speaking of you like your a mythical legend, but to me see Mr Zodiac, to me you are a F****** little coward! That's what you artde to me, pathetic and gutless coward. And now what are you going to do about it, ZODIAC?"

Richard

8/25/2015 05:43:28 pm

Dead on, we would all be truly disappointed if we actually saw him, it would be a major let down not to see a 'caped crusader', but a pathetic balding pot bellied man with prescription glasses, I'm sure we would all be underwhelmed. Your right about lack of words in the English dictionary, but you see it all the time. I often see these gangs around the world, smothered in tattoos and people saying they are mean looking, tough people you wouldn't want to cross. That is because they have 40 people standing behind them. The reason they are in gangs is because they are nothing on their own. It's like people with guns, I often hear it's ok for law abiding citizens to carry them, but how many murders are fuelled by greed, revenge, jealousy and love by supposedly ordinary and once law abiding American citizens, I've lost count.

Richard

8/25/2015 06:27:42 pm

Alex, quick change of subject but never heard this before about the Lake Herman Road murders. Just read an article with Pierre Bidou stating "Bidou and his partner had served a warrant on a Lake Herman Road cabin Dec. 20, 1968, and were on their way to deposit some marijuana in the police department’s evidence locker when they were dispatched back to Lake Herman Road.
Initially, they were told a woman was lying outside a car; they thought they were being sent to a crash. Police at first speculated it might have been a crank call, but the officers headed back north.
But when they arrived, Bidou realized it was no crank call and no car accident. Instead, it was a sinister crime scene".
If they thought it may have been a crank call it couldn't have come through official lines, it must have been somebody else ie: a member of the public, but it wasn't Stella Borges, the only person supposedly who saw the bodies and she raced off to Benicia and flagged down Officer Daniel Pitta, so who was it. Was this Zodiac or is that a stretch. In the murder of Laotian couple Koy Ien Saechao (48) and Choy Fow Salee (40) on April 22nd 1986 a possible Zodiac letter arrived 2 weeks later and there were many things in the letter that tied with these murders. http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/highway-99 , on this occasion a mystery hitchhiker flagged down a policeman and sent him towards what was he believed to be a car accident only to discover the murders. It's very weak to try and connect the two, but who had sent the call at LHR to give officers the impression it was just a crash. Is this the early untaunting work of the killer, probably not but curious all the same. Here is the article http://beniciaheraldonline.com/citizens-police-academy-signs-of-the-zodiac/

Richard

8/25/2015 06:54:53 pm

It was just five days before Christmas, 1968, when Bidou, 28, and Armenta, 31, got a call shortly after 11:15 p.m. regarding a “car and a body” on the side of the road, just inside Benicia city limits. The two officers arrived on the scene a few minutes later.

Herald archives

"The timing was remarkable. The officers had just participated in a narcotics raid at a building at the Lake Herman parking area and had driven back to town with suspects in the back of their cruiser. Perhaps, they thought, they had seen a car at the turnout. Maybe there were two. They couldn’t be completely sure."
https://beniciaherald.wordpress.com/the-zodiac-case/

Alex Lewis

8/25/2015 11:02:26 pm

I have heard Pierre's account up to getting bk to the station about to book the Weed into evidence and it was at this moment He heared The Benicia PD sendiong out a dispatch of a possible shooting out on LHR.

What Russ Butterbach says is the comment I am still scratchn my head to understand why the report He says His Sgt. had given him to look into just prior to the homicides. Butterbach stated:

"We got a call from the Sgt. that A Man from Benicia, who fishes out at Lake Berryessa, wasn't home. That was around, ohhhh Seven or Eight O'clock and He (The Sgt.) asked us to look down Lake Herman Rd to see if His truck was there, which was blue in color but just as we turned onto LHR we had a call to go to the Hell's Angles pad over on Warren Street."

It may just be me Rich but why is it relevant to the double homicide to recall He was askedd to go down LHR approx. 4 and a half hours earlier that night?
And also, who the hell rings police to report: "Oh Hi there. . . Now, I am calling this evening because I notice that a man is not in his house, and this man not at home fishes at Berryessa. Could you dispatch an officer please to Lake Herman and see if He & His blue truck are there yet? Good bye"

Alex Lewis link

8/26/2015 01:11:14 am

Wouldn't, in fact can't rule it out completely, that No call was placed in the immediate aftermath of LHR.
In the two subsequent attacks He carries out He calls the Authorities to notify them that homicides have just been committed & is calling n the capacity of the person responsible by making a comment to both Nancy and Dave which are not hints, cryptic in nature nor non specific in that He tell's Nancy "I also killed those kids last year" & told Dave point blank and direct "I'm the one that did it."

Could he have phoned to give the details of the location where the LHR victims could be found but did so on this first occasion under the false and assumed title of 'Witness?' No reason why not.
In fact, off the top of my head, while the agencies have never verbally or in writing confirmation that no such call was made by male subject claiming to have seen a person on the ground out there, they have never denied or said a one didn't call either. ,Maybe t's just the wthholding of little bits of crime and scene info that only they and the real killer would know of and as the years turn into decades, nobody has ever point blank asked about it?

Alex Lewis

10/6/2015 12:12:03 am

Well, it seems to me that at present there is nothing one can do in order to see this case closed and so, in the mean time, I am going to appear on Dragon Den with my idea:

"Good day Dragons I am Welsh, and I am here today seeking investment of £250,000 for 2% steak in my new reality tv show called 'Cops and Robbers, Gladiator edition.'
We all remember the popular game show where a contestant tries a round of challenges against a gladiator or ten and face the Eliminator to end with? Well, in my new version each game will start by randomly picking a challenge and game, such as 'The Gauntlet!' This game involves a challenger trying to get from point A to point B in 3 minutes with that path blocked by several Truth-Lie-Creators.... Let the game begin....

: "OFFENDEEERRRERS, READDDDDDYYYYYY? THE LIE-CREATORRRRSSSSSS, READDDYYYYY? 3. . . 2. . . 1. . .*Whistle to begin*

"And the Offender goes for it and feigns left then right and ducks and, WOWW! Great Move by the Offender as He distracts His road blocking nightmare with "LOOK OVER THERE, A FIVER!" and sails around this first huge problem but The Offender simply runs straight into His second and, He is, He is....WOW! Again The Offender bypasses with ease by walking by calmy with a little fluffy and cute Poodle doggy that distracts the 2nd mountain of a problem and the rest He directs further up the gauntlet and finishes the game victorious. OFFENDER! YOU WILL GO ON MY FIRST WHISTLE. SFPD, YOU WILL GO ON MY SECOND WHISTLE! THREE....TWO...ONE...!

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 01:45:23 am

Don can fairly easily argue against Armond's claim of 'Another Unit stopped someone and asked ....Blah blah blah etc etc etc' and declare that irregardless of Armond and his accusations, we DID NOT stop the Zodiac, in fact, we didn't stop anyone and I wish Eric Zelms were alive today to tell you so!!"

Well, now that is interesting Donny should mention his late Partner on that night Eric Zelms because, as said, one may dismiss Armond as a liar or mishearing something he said as something else but, Mr Zelms at time of his untimely passing was married, thus, He has a widow. Now this Woman Loved Eric, Eric was husband and Father to her young child and she states, and has done since Eric died, that She and Her late husband had discussed this event in depth and that it is her testimony, Don, that Eric did tell her that contrary to public denials, Himself and Don DID stop to speak with a White Male that evening.

Now is Don going to suggest The Widow Zelms is an attention seeking liar? Is she making stuff up to hurt and defame the good name of her recently murdered husband for no reason? Or, Don, is the logical and most likely answer one can reach is, She's doing him justice by stating the absolute truth that she heard directly from Her Late Husband? Have a think, Don, have a think.

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 02:16:23 am

But now I have that interviewer's question bugging me more than a bit. It would be easily dismissed as a harmless case of He having misspoke or used one word incorrectly but, I had said previously Rich if you recall that I see it as more likely the cops who accost Zodiac having done so after coming down Jackson and from behind the suspect.
I asked and still do, how is it that Zodiac doesn't or cannot see Fouke approaching him from 800, 1000, even 1,500 yards away down the long straight that is Jackson St? Why does Z seem to wait until Don is literally almost on top of him before taking avoiding action and turning onto steps? Makes no sense to me.
Now if, on the other hand, the cop car came around quickly from Cherry and at speed approached Maple then Z has no time or advanced warning of their imminent approach in which to take avoiding actions. If Don or Maybe even Armond comes screeching around Cherry's corner down Jackson then Suspect would literally have time to look back over his shoulder, and see the cop car maybe 4 to 5 houses distance away and in a second or two will pull up next t him which would give suspect enough time to turn and take two maybe three steps up and onto the new heading of 'Toward House' which, quite coincidentally, is exactly where Zodiac was when Don 'Calls him over.'

Richard

8/18/2015 05:54:07 am

Now I'm not saying this is the answer, but is it possible the cars and treeline obscured his vision (See below). However if Armond Pelissetti responded red light and siren I'm assuming Fouke did too, so he should have heard his approach. Or maybe risking trying to hide would be risky in itself so he played it cool, after all the cops were sitting ducks in their vehicle and he wasn't afraid to use his gun.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.7898233,-122.4558398,3a,75y,110.55h,77.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smMOFh2Qbd6uWjgasBT9XJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 07:36:45 am

Well I see where your coming from with Z possiobly havig his vision partially blocked or seeing noticing Fouke Approaching but we've all seen Prowl cars at night and even if you are unable to hear their sirens for some reason then, even if a tree, 2nd vehicle, or building even blocks diectly seeing the police car itself, you can see the bouncing blur lights bouncing off hoses,other cars, street signs and any thing within 50 to 100 yards of this thing that is like a disco on 4 wheels. And at night when it's dark He misses this?

Zodiac, what is one wearing black horn rimmed spectacles for? They obviously don't do him any good or be of purposeful use if He Can't hear that of which sounds similar to Air Raid Sirens, designed to be so loud that 7 to 10 vehicles in front & up ahead of itself become that you are there and fast approaching with need to get through, then Zodiac is completely Deaf. Also, glasses He wears are just part of his disguise as He is legally registered as blind.

We are looking for a White Male who cannot Hear, cannot see and cannot seem to walk unaided without limping and stumbling allover the shop.
Richard I demand you tell me instantly how this Blind and Deaf man who is 6 Moths away from being wheel chair bound consistently outwitted the police and continually escaped their grasp. He is an invalid and should have been accompanied by Kjell's 4 legged friend as A Guide Dog.

Ok,.. that is it, outburst complete and sarcasm now called upon and used in answering the obviously reasonable valid and legit questions you raised Rich, it's just me, I cannot myself sometimes. :-)

As one of my favorite stand up comics, Hailing from the American Deep South but now living in tyhe UK, Reginald D. Hunter says of The British and their love of irony and Sarcasm: "See Hee in the UK you love things such as Irony and Sarcasm and see, back home in the South, Sarcasm is still considered to be Witch-Craft. America is a younger Country than the UK.
Over here you use sarcasm as a clever way to say what you really think.' Lol.

Even his Welsh Joke i found highly funny of "When I first came over here I'd head a lot about Wales, Dianna Princess of Wales, Prince of Wales, so I was really looking forward to going to do a going there and told my English friends and they, without thinking, said "Be careful, they shag sheep" and this was time and time again and they said it with such authority and conviction that i asked, "Well is the Government doing anything abut this?" It took me a while to realize that that;'s just something you English just like to say.

Richard

8/18/2015 06:10:35 am

Look at this heavy treeline down Jackson.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.789795,-122.4555825,3a,15y,72.29h,86.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjyncmxRK5hVIhDcD6JF6bQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 06:40:47 am

Was contemplating the other day hether it could be and is rather normal and quite the usual thing found in Unsolved Cold Cases that not one, not two, but three witnesses, all related, watched the crime committed and the man responsible thereof, a man who to this very day remains Nameless & un-apprehended, and for All three of these witnesses to give initial post crime statements to Law Enforcement then vanish into society in total silence.

Never come forward to discuss publicly what they observed that night. Given the World wide fascination this case attracts to it that it has to have it's very own Community, I've never seen any of the three on any site, subsequent Documentary, turning up in Plkace A or B willing to talk to any 3rd party about Zodiac and the whole entire case.

Richard

8/18/2015 08:37:08 am

I did read a post on the Zodiac Killer Facts forum where somebody said they questioned the kids and they said the killer walked around to the drivers side and attempted to prop Paul Stine up behind the steering wheel, but this action from the killer makes little sense and didn't appeared to have been mentioned back in the day. A big change wiping fingerprints off the driver side door and exiting up Cherry St, to opening the door and trying to prop him up, so has to be taken with a large pinch of salt and as you said Alex, when large omissions are later added or versions changed, the person or witness starts losing credibility in my eyes. An ever changing story negates any belief in the suspect or police officer for that matter.
There are many things that have vanished from Presidio Heights, the three teenagers, the mystery 8 year old, the mystery dog walker, Shep the dog himself, Zodiac, the mysterious black man and 49 pages of the Stine report. Bring in Lieutenant Joe Kenda, the homicide hunter. http://www.inquisitr.com/1679639/lt-joe-kenda-homicide-hunter-the-man-behind-the-following/

This video at 1:15 states "I've solved over 387 homicides". This is a strange statement. I can understand when somebody states "I've solved over 350 homicides" or "over 400 homicides", but using my Sherlock Holmes detective work surely when somebody is so precise stating "I've solved over 387 homicides", that means they have probably solved 388. https://youtu.be/UWlau66W29k?t=1m15s

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 11:59:05 am

You know Rich it's uncanny sometimes when I read something you say because that very claim at the opening if Homicide Hunter Episodes that Kendra tells us he's solved a very specific amount of Homicides, "Over 387."
Ah ah ah, oh no you don't Jo! Not having it! This is police code and encryption of the highest degree of difficulty and most sophisticated tyle of cryptography, The 'substitution of one up, or one down in number' code.

Having poured over Kendra's cryptic remarks for 3 Months Rich, I determined the message to be code for "I've solved 388 Homicides." You have to get up pretty early in the morning to catch me out, Lol

Serious though Rich, I always thought when I hear himclaim the he solved over 387 homicides "So you solved 388 then is what you saying, and saying it in a really odd way.
And no we must not bring in the Lt. as once Kendra is spotted by Pelissetti Armond will be claiming next "The other Unit stopped A Lt Kendra and asked him had He seen anyone or anything thing suspicious and Jo said yes, Don Fouke just ran into the presidio......brick wall, literally! The Conjecture is that Kendra is The Zodiac. Was He The Zodiac? No, Insp. Toschi was."

Alex Lewis

8/18/2015 11:42:57 pm

That view you submitted above Rich is from the flat and level ground at Maple & Jackson Intersection and, if we are to believe Fouke as to where the encounter happens, Zodiac did not get that far. This seems picky and very pedantic of me I know to point this out when the Intersection and 3712 steps are in such close proximity but it's for a reason I make this point because when you coming down Jackson approaching the steps to 3712 on your left then the visibility distance from this point is greater and you view is far less likely to be obstructed because you on a raised hilly area and in a sense you can look out above and over any parked vehicles that are a few feet further down the street because you are on a raised and surface or looking from high or higher ground.

"Or maybe risking trying to hide would be risky in itself so he played it cool, after all the cops were sitting ducks in their vehicle and he wasn't afraid to use his gun."

Richard....what is this I see? Risk is too high to duck from view to allow the prowl car to pass by before you continue and then dash off to JK Park and hide there out in the open and this He would see as high risk until being surrounded and He now becomes your sitting duck.
We have rodents that couldn't escape SFPD's attention. Duck's just chilling and sitting around wondering what all the fuss is about . Dogs that are being walked by owners that have the ability to vanish and while all this is happening The Zodiac has made his way to Julius Kahn and is now playing on the swings and having a wonderful time. :-)

Richard

8/20/2015 06:48:43 pm

As you alluded Donald Fouke also said in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' after bumping into Armond Pelissetti "we turned around to get to the Presidio, and my reasoning was because turning down Maple would lead through the Presidio wall and directly into Julius Khan Playground." ie; this is where he last saw Zodiac going, so why did he later mention 3712 Jackson Street, the two sightings at two different places are not compatible. The fact he stated in 'Crimes of the Century' turning onto West Pacific Avenue and his thoughts of turning into Maple on the later video, suggests he spotted Zodiac turning down the Jackson/Maple intersection, so his alleged last sighting being 3712 Jackson is flat out false and likely never happened. "And that is emphatic statement by me and I wouldn't make the denial."

Richard

8/20/2015 08:05:19 pm

Welsh, talking about your man walking a dog I have an idea. I stated in one of my previous articles I thought Zodiac was walking on the north side of Jackson Street because he possibly had blood on the left side of his body and wanted this side of his body facing away from the road and oncoming vehicles, especially if the police shone their searchlights onto the sidewalk, but this was based on a Washington and Maple murder. If however this was not the case and he had virtually no blood on him, what logical reason could he have for being on this side of the road when spotted by Fouke, in the glare of oncoming vehicles. That is unless when Zodiac turned into Jackson Street he noticed the man walking his dog slowly on the south side, heading towards Maple, so to avoid him crossed over to the north side. When Fouke arrived at Jackson he blabs to Zodiac and receives the 'man waving a gun' info. He then floors it heading toward Arguello Boulevard, either ignoring or not noticing the man with a dog. However it is at least two minutes later after trawling West Pacific Avenue and returning back to Cherry that he bumps into Pelissetti. Fouke turns round and heads to Maple and the Presidio to search for Zodiac, he doesn't mention seeing a man with a dog. Pelissetti continues into Jackson and travels to Maple where he spots the man with a dog. Does this suggest the man with the dog was out of sight in the lower reaches of Maple when Fouke arrived or further up Jackson towards Spruce and only reached the top of Maple by the time Pelissetti arrived. But the question remains, putting aside why Zodiac didn't travel straight up Cherry, what compelled him to walk along the more risky north side of Jackson other than maybe one or more persons were walking along the south side and his hand was forced.

Richard

8/20/2015 09:05:48 pm

So after nearly 50 years and the first part of 'This is the Zodiac Speaking', why does Fouke never mention in the scratch or on video this so called rendezvous at 3712 Jackson Street. Here is what he said "Because he was putting his head down, when he spotted the police car and turned into the entrance way of a house and by entrance way I mean stairs leading up that are concrete, to a path, that leads to a front door." He should have said "By entrance way, I mean not exit way, that aren't made of wood, paper or metal, that are stairs that are not level, leading to a house, not a caravan, boat or bungalow towards a door that was made of wood, that provides an opening into a house, with a nice yellow doormat, that leads away from the street, as well as to it and you know the address of that house", no I don't but I bet it's got nice carpets, a grandfather clock and a lovely poodle in a wicker basket." Is it 3712 Jackson Street, the address you failed to mention for fifty years, has to be correct then. Even Skippy the Bush Kangaroo makes more sense.

Richard

8/21/2015 06:19:19 pm

When I say he never mentions passing Zodiac on Jackson, I mean in the report on the 12th October he states "Zodiac Killer was observed by Fouke walking in an easterly direction on Jackson Street and then turn north on Maple." He never said he passed him.

Richard

8/21/2015 06:37:04 pm

You asked Alex why Zodiac doesn't or cannot see Fouke approaching him from 800, 1000, even 1,500 yards away down the long straight that is Jackson St? Well try this one for size. Zodiac wasn't on Jackson Street when Fouke was nearing the Jackson/Maple intersection and therefore never tried to hide, that's because he was already walking north on Maple towards the Presidio, which is why Fouke stated "and my reasoning was because turning down Maple would lead through the Presidio wall and directly into Julius Khan Playground." Because that's where he spotted the mystery white male and why later he entered West Pacific Avenue. Zodiac may have saw the police car initially as did Fouke see Zodiac, but he wasn't concerned, he had his lines worked out and had a gun, he then turned into Maple as Fouke drew up to the intersection. Donald Fouke said in the 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary concerning his speed, "Before I saw him I was traveling probably about 35-40 mph, slowed down as we passed him, saw it was a white male, step on the gas, 5,10,15 seconds tops." He also said "As we approached Maple, I noticed on the north side of the street a white male adult."
You may correct me, but other than the mention of this dubious reference to 3712 Jackson Street, in the earlier part of this documentary or in the 'Crimes of the Century' video Fouke never mentions passing the suspect in Jackson Street, he says " "believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect." In other words Zodiac was spotted somewhere in Maple heading towards the Presidio wall. He was pulled over in the upper reaches of Maple and possibly why Zodiac said " I was walking down the hill TO the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + WENT AROUND THE CORNER (ie Maple) as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again. Not likely but not withstanding Fouke up until this 3712 reference never mentions passing Zodiac in Jackson Street, only seeing him.

Alex Lewis

8/28/2015 03:28:53 am

Well how about this Rich as to explain the Fouke & Armonds inability to agree on most of the nights events and that question you raised not too long ago of If Fouke is on Presidio Avenue and had just passed Washington St as the alert ent out and let them know A Taxi Driver is being attacked, robbed, or even killed bacically whatever the actual crime in progress were issued to respond to, How in the Hell can Don not get to the scene for so long a time that Armond responds and arrives, has time to chat to witnesses, issue His update over the air, take off after suspect and do so with, quote "Extreme Caution using every tech. I could think of trying not to get my head blown off...." which to my untrained ear Rich means took his time and checking all alcoves along route etc, got all way down to Maple and turns back n hismself and it's now as He turns back onto Cherry that "At that point Officer Don Fouke, who was accompanied by what I believe was a rookie Officer Eric Zelms at the time and He called out to me....."

All of which would at a minimum have to take Armond, what, 10 to 12 minutes shall we say and Fouke is nowhere to be seen yet we are told by Fouke that He was basically a few blocks away when He got the call and that He then, without hesitation or deviation, 'We turned West onto Jackson St, as we approached Maple st I noticed a WMA...."

There is an account Rich of what happened which would explain Don's absence with a high degree of satisfaction and may also, possibily at least, explaib the teen witnesses silence and above all give that FBI document and it's eight year old witness His time and the place in which He/She 'IDENTIFIED ******** ******** AS POSSIBLE SUBJECT IN THIS MATTER!"

The claim itself will follow this response and directly below. . .

Alex Lewis

8/28/2015 03:34:12 am

Continued....

The claim I have been privvy to previously is one that I am reluctant to reprduce as there no evidence to prove any of the things claimed happened actually did, no proof to say they didn't either though.

So, for a moment I shall take the role of 'Agent A. Lewis, Federal Bureau of Speculation. . .

Let's just sayt that A White Male was not simply ignored and passed by on Jackson, but Don Fouke and his absence from the scene for a good ten mins may have somehthing to do with the fact that A person who's name is unclear has put it out there that on Oct 11,1969 He saw a cop car stop and an Officer get out and speak to a WMA for a very brief period before the cop opened his rear cruizer door and the WMA got in of his own free will and was not cuffed as He sat in rear of patrol car before the cop car was seen to drfive away.

Before anyone does, don't bother asking the who cop was, who WMA was, where they went after leaving that area on Jax St ect and why, when, how and/or anything specific or detailed ie names because I have absolutely no idea at all. All I do know is that someone had put this forward as the events as they saw them unfold on the night itsel out in the area of PPacific Heigts, the area that causes much confusion and claim vs conter-claim not by Law Officer and the Offender, but by Lawman againt fellow Lawman for almost 5 Decades now!

Alex Lewis

9/28/2015 02:46:15 pm

I am Back with You. . . after a week without posting. Personal Best by 5 days 6 hours and 23 minutes.

Tell Herb Cain His Name-sake Larry isn't fooling anyone. Well, except the SFPD, Napa Sheriffs Office, Benicia PD and Patridge in pair tree.

But to be serious, I notice a comment you made Rich that I must call attention to: "Welsh, talking about your man walking a dog.."

My Man with a dog? I don't believe I have one of those Rich, not that I can call or state as 'Mine' anyhow. :-)
Calling a pet suspect 'My suspect' is one of my pet hates (You will excuse the irony, I am sure) as it seems to hint at a claim of right to Man A as belong to Man B as some sort of trademarked entity and therefore, should anyone claim One Lawrence Cane to be their suspect, I will sue them for copyright theft and more importantly, suspect theft. .Yes, tis funny.
Kjell, Larry or any other suspect is simply a suspect, and if anything, Kane is Harvey's suspect that seems to have been legally handed down to myself & in this generation 'Larry Kane' is 'WelshChaps' suspect.

At this moment Kane is trying to claw his way out of the Earth in a raging anger simply determined He shall not be the property of anyone, especially a Welsh Person!

And yes, it's good to be back.... :-)

Anyway,

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 10:36:51 pm

"He should have said "By entrance way, I mean not exit way, that aren't made of wood, paper or metal, that are stairs that are not level, leading to a house, not a caravan, boat or bungalow towards a door that was made of wood, that provides an opening into a house, with a nice yellow doormat, that leads away from the street, as well as to it and you know the address of that house", no I don't but I bet it's got nice carpets, a grandfather clock and a lovely poodle in a wicker basket." Is it 3712 Jackson Street, the address you failed to mention for fifty years, has to be correct then. Even Skippy the Bush Kangaroo makes more sense."

Lol. Yes I agree Don just is not detail specific enough."You want the address of that residence?" No not really Don, it's fairly unlikely He will still be there now almost half a century later.
And you failed to cite Rich "Because He was putting His head down, not up or to the left, but down toward the sidewalk." Anything else Don you care to add? "Yes, I believe He may be a Welsh Wingwalker. I saw Him as He walked in the shadow of the trees and could determine the color of his boots."

Richard

8/19/2015 08:03:31 pm

Here's an interesting post Gregory Haugevik placed on my Facebook page;

Charlie Chan video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=541&v=AiYyOZtHhWw
If you watch "Charlie Chan at Treasure Island" (1939), the synchronicities with the Zodiac case are at times amazing.. At 19:00, during a seance with the recently departed Paul (having passed in October), Chan asks him "Were you not victim of blackmail (black male)?".. Paul says, "There was no blackmail".. Chan: "What was meaning of radiogram? 'Cannot escape Zodiac?'".. The full radiogram: "Can't escape Zodiac; Goodbye my love, Paul" at 8:45...
In the end, on a theatre stage, it's revealed that Fred Rhadini ("The Great Rhadini") is Dr. Zodiac.. This character is played by Cesar Romero who also played The Joker in the Batman tv series, most notably in the episode "The Zodiac Crimes"...
Another point of note is when Chan holds up a book called "The History of Psychology" by Kahne (similar to Kane -the name perhaps found in the "my name is" cipher, as well as the adopted surname of a major suspect) to diagnose Dr. Zodiac's behavior as 'pseudologia fantastica' -"an elaborate and often fantastic account of exploits that is false but that the teller believes to be true"; sounds like Z...
Dr. Zodiac even leaves a note at one point which reads: "I accept your challenge to a demonstration of my powers. I shall appear on your Stage to-night." ..Notice his use of the word "shall" -something the real life Zodiac favored...
A line from the film, perhaps relevant to the Stine fingerprints / false clews -"Obvious clues, like tricks in magic, usually prove deceptive"...
There's also ancient Egypt allusions in the film, not unlike the "slaves in the afterlife" concept spread by Zodiac.. During the seance Zodiac says his 'control' is "an Egyptian priestess who passed beyond 3,000 years ago." ....
I haven't watched the entire film, there's probably even more similarities...

Alex Lewis

9/1/2015 03:34:59 pm

"Obvious clues, like tricks in magic, usually prove deceptive."

Been saying that for ages myself. If a magician tells you 'Look over here people' then you can almost be assured He's engaging in the art of Misdirection. He wants you to look over here because nothing is there that matters but He wants you to believe there is.

The print, considering the offender had wiped down both the in and exterior with a rag or white cloth to erase any invisable prints e may have left behind would then overlook/fail to see a very blood red stand out fingerprint. If it's overly obvious and looks like a print too good to be true then, in all likelihood.....that's just what it likely is. As the saying endures: If it sounds too go to be true, then it probably is.

Alex Lewis

9/1/2015 03:42:55 pm

"If you watch "Charlie Chan at Treasure Island" (1939), the synchronicities with the Zodiac case are at times amazing.. At 19:00, during a seance with the recently departed Paul (having passed in October), Chan asks him "Were you not victim of blackmail (black male)?".. Paul says, "There was no blackmail".. Chan: "What was meaning of radiogram? 'Cannot escape Zodiac?'".. The full radiogram: "Can't escape Zodiac; Goodbye my love, Paul" at 8:45...
In the end, on a theatre stage, it's revealed that Fred Rhadini ("The Great Rhadini") is Dr. Zodiac.. This character is played by Cesar Romero who also played The Joker in the Batman tv series, most notably in the episode "The Zodiac Crimes"...

Rich that is very interesting. No, scrap that, extremely and overwhelmingly interesting!

Is this suggesting Zodiac allowed Paul to write a final goodbye message stating He 'cannot escape Z, goodbye my love, Paul'?

Alex Lewis

9/1/2015 03:45:43 pm

" it's revealed that Fred Rhadini ("The Great Rhadini") is Dr. Zodiac "

Can I assume this is a play on, or direct hint at, Fred Manelli?

Richard

8/19/2015 08:12:58 pm

Richard Grinell It has previously been highlighted that the Zodiac Killer was picked up by Paul Stine in the theater district of San Francisco on October 11th 1969, but more specifically outside the Westin St. Francis Hotel situated on Powell and Geary Streets on Union Square. Robert Graysmith, author of two Zodiac books and having access to official police reports stated "Here's the St. Francis," pointing to the hotel on Union Square. "That's where Stine was idling in his taxi." https://youtu.be/AiYyOZtHhWw?t=13m56s watch this. Go to 13:56.

Richard

8/19/2015 08:47:42 pm

Excerpt from Charlie Chan, same St Francis near Powell Street.
"After everybody was ashore, I went back to my taxi and paid off the driver. 'Was you expecting somebody on the ship' he asked. 'Yes' I told him. I came down to meet the Dowager Empress of China, but they tell me she's dead. He gave me a dirty look. As I hurried away the man with the black glasses came up. Taxi mister said Cauliflower Ear. And old Glasses got in. I had to meander through the rain all the way to the S.P. station before I could find another cab. Just as I drove away from the station along came Cauliflower Ear in his splendid equipage. He followed along behind, down Third, up Market to Powell, and finally to the St. Francis. I went in the front door of the hotel and out the side, on to Post. And there was Cauliflower Ear and his fare, drifting by our store. As I went in the front door of the club, my dear old friends drew up across the street. I escaped by way of the kitchen, and slipped over here. I fancy they're still in front of the club--they loved me like a brother." He paused. "And that, dad, is the long but thrilling story of why I did not meet Mr. Chan."
Eden smiled. "By jove, you've got more brains than I thought".

Greg

8/20/2015 04:23:49 pm

Not much time at the moment, guys.. But I wanted to interject something regarding the Stine scene fingerprints and the assumption of Zodiac being in the military.. If we accept that the prints belonged to Zodiac, these prints were certainly run extensively through NCIC, CODIS, etc. with the intention of finding a match.. Now, from what I understand military personel are fingerprinted and their information is on official record.. Had Zodiac been in the Navy, as is a common belief, chances are he'd have gotten identified through a fingerprint match.. Perhaps we need to discard the military angle in view of this premise?... I also read in the Michael Kelleher / David Van Nuys book "This is the Zodiac Speaking" that the recovered prints were from the side area of the ring and pinky fingers.. They also state that because the central part of the finger was obscured, it's consistent with Zodiac's claim that he was wearing a finger guard of some variety, "airplane glue".. Unsure how factual this information is, but on the whole this is considered one of most credible books about the Zodiac case... Off topic -another bit of trivial factoid I read from this book is that the name "Kathleen Johns" is an alias.. Presumably she publicly adopted this name so that her abductor couldn't locate her.. Would seem to make sense...

Richard

8/20/2015 05:16:45 pm

This is a very good point, the question is have all the historical fingerprints from let's say 1960 been placed in CODIS. Fingerprints were taken of all naval and indeed military personnel, manually stored on cards. To transfer all military personnel fingerprint files onto the IAFIS or NGI civil files is a massive undertaking and it is my understanding that a cut off point was instituted, after all putting fingerprints from the Zodiac era and before, means recording data from 70/80 + year individuals and probably not their highest priority.
I nicked this off a forum: "Additionally, for military service fingerprint cards at the FBI, all received after 19 May 2000 are stored in AFIS. From before that, about 95% of the enlisted fingerprint cards received between 1990 and 19 May 2000 have been entered into AFIS. The reason officer prints were not captured is a long story having to do with enlisted prints not being Henry classified starting with the Gulf War because the CJIS civil unit was too far behind to file the large influx by other than the first letter of the last name (at that time). Thus, enlisted fingerprint cards were stored in a large, separate group while officer cards were inserted into the huge civil repository among the other approximately 86 million civil fingerprint records. Thus, officer fingerprint cards from before 19 May 2000 are too difficult and costly to retrieve for large scale AFIS entry, unlike the easy to locate enlisted fingerprints from after the Gulf War".
There is a high degree of possibility that if Zodiac was in the military his prints have never made it onto computer and into CODIS. I may be wrong, but I would be surprised if all military personnel from 1960 onward and prior to computer database have been transferred.

Richard

8/20/2015 05:36:47 pm

Assuming the fingerprints found were bloody fingerprints and not normal fingerprints spattered with blood it makes perfect sense these were 'ring and pinky fingers' and most likely from Zodiac's right hand, possibly back spatter or a fine mist of blood cast back onto Zodiac's hand from the close contact wound anterior to Paul Stine's right ear. The angle of the killer's hand would mean the barrel of the gun may have restricted the transference to his upper fingers, but may just as likely been that when he opened the driver side door of the taxicab, which I'm sure he did, he braced his right hand on the dividing panel between the driver and rear passenger door transferring the prints as he leaned into the cab. There seems to be little other reason for blooded fingerprints to have been in that position ie; After the shooting and prior to his removal of a piece of shirt.

Alex Lewis

8/24/2015 01:06:48 am

Fingerprits entered in AFIS, DNA into CODIS, Description into F'THIS....what hapened was they were contemplating entering the print into AFIS, and then a superior came along and heard the word 'Fingerprint submittion' and 'Zodiac Case' and told the detectives "If I hear the mere suggestion of such a thing again I will demote you both to desk duties in Unuform! In fact, next person to say the word 'Zodiac' will need a Horoscope to tell them what Job they will next be employed at. Leave that Case alone, Zodiac is to us what Garlic is to your mythical vampire: Deplorable at best!"

Then the Superior went back to his superior place and shook his head muttering "Idiots! Wish they'd forget that case that has forever been a thorn in SFPD's side! We in the superior place know who He was and a select few in the upper ranks do also. The information and truth is told to them we decide have a need to know, and if we decide for you that you do not, then you will never know his name."

To end with a serious comment, Armond Pelissetti: "The Zodiac Case will never be resolved as long as Chief *Name I can't recall* is running the show over at SFPD."

Robin Smith

8/25/2015 12:16:02 am

Robert E Hunter Jr's first wife Sylvia's obituary reads like a list of "you know who's" from SF's society page.

Really! Check it out. When were they divorced?

"Bob" Hunter's obituary says his second wife was a "talented landscaper"

I say that there was something untoward going on with these two back then, as divorce was not highly thought of in those days, especially by Catholics. The society types rarely, if ever, did the divorce thing. When they did extra measures were taken to "cover up" ie newspapers and police chiefs

Aand who was the SFPD Chief at that time?

Robin Smith

8/25/2015 12:23:39 am

Larry Kane went to China and my ex went with him at least once that I know of....Harvey's Casino had many high rollers from China in the day.

The Chinese like to gamble. Used to send one person up here with tons of money to, play Keno for instance, for book loads of people!

Robin Smith

8/25/2015 05:25:19 am

I don't think the military connection can be dismissed Greg...too many "military" players in this scenario from the Presidio to Montana to Riverside, Ca...

Bohemian Grove members from Hunter to Qvale

Robin Smith

8/26/2015 11:13:07 am

As a matter of fact I remember my ex referring to Larry Kane as "Charlie Chan". I know...that's just a recollection of mine and not real evidence that some members of the Z community would accept, except that it is true.

I have also noticed that eyewitness testimony isn't worth much in this case either as actually being present at the time is not relevant or so I was told by one Z poster.

Harvey Hines didn't start investigating Donna Lass until 1973 and all the management people at the Sahara Tahoe had moved on in 90 days! To Reno and Las Vegas most of them.

Larry Kane did think he was extremely clever.

Alex Lewis

8/24/2015 03:28:51 pm

But speaking of people pulling goofs, we are surely due the next caim to fall off the Zodiac Production Line of "I was adopted and my birth Father was The Zodiac, and here is my published book to prove it!"

I may actually put my 2 pennies worth by offering a claim of my own. Yes I think I shall write an article outlining my links to Dad the Zodiac. Media will show interest for half a minute "Mr Lewis, So and So with the Chronicle..... Do you have any actual solid evidence to support this claim of yours?" I then declare "Oh absolutely!" Journalist: "Where and what is this evidence, Mr Lewis?" Smiling I would reply....Uhhh, it's in my new book, available at all good stores for $29.99 so you'd have to go and buy the very non-ficticious book."

Richard

9/1/2015 05:45:36 pm

Alex have you ever asked the question, I'm sure you have being of devious mind, why would Zodiac order a taxicab from Union Square and have the taxicab drive several miles to Washington and Cherry. Why didn't he just select a remote or quiet area and ambush the driver there. People say he wanted to cause shock leaving a scene of murder in a wealthy built up district, so why didn't he just order the taxicab to the corner of Washington and Cherry, get in, shoot the cabbie and leave. And had people been around, then just get the taxicab driver to drive a few blocks, after all he could never have done this at the Westin St Francis Hotel, too risky and he almost certainly risked being spotted and described at this location than the less busy Washington and Cherry. Maybe this was somewhere near to where he lived after all.

Alex Lewis

9/7/2015 04:00:19 pm

Richard now don't be sillly, asking me "Have you ever asked yourself why Zodiac would do this, not do that, say this and then not say that "etc etc then the answer is, yes, I drive myself nuts doing that. I have come to the uderstanding though Richard, via my Group Therapy and sessions with a counselor that, Alex, despite what some may say, your not a lunatic nut bag so your unable to think like He who is."

Anyway Rich as you know, psychics are a breed of people I love and think are absolutely to be trusted and believed at all times. Wait...No I don't, I detest these liars who prey on the grief stricken but putting my loathing for these people aside, John J Oliver (The J stands for Jay) dispite claiming to have secured the information from voices only He can hear speaking, which I recognize as: Psychosis. John Oliver states hearing voices nobody else can: Special Gift.
None the less, His connection is interesting as it is actually factual. He stated, while rolling his eye back into his head and looking like an idiot, "Stine, the name....it's not random, He was picked because of His name......Stine, Stine....Stine, Stone, Stone, The name, The name stine, it means stone, Stine comes from the literal translation of Stone. Mason, Mason not random, Mason Street, delibbertate, Stone-Mason, Stone-Mason, that's the clue He gave. "

Now while this came from a man who can tell us everything execpt who Zodiac was, which all other so-called mediums stop short of doing too, the connection is none the less an interesting one.

Alex Lewis

9/28/2015 02:58:04 pm

John J Oliver and his UnEarthly Evidence from the Other Side was given for the forst time on an episode of the show 'Haunting Evidence - Zodiac Killer.'

J. Oliver was re-tracing Paul's fatal route when He rolled his eyes back into His head (He wasn't driving) and began receiving messages from the other side. Tom was in the vehicle with the psychic medium and was absolutely pulled in to this and could not take his (now widened) eyes off John J's 'communication with Paul and the other side' so much so I really thought Tom was going to reach out, take John Olivers hand and whisper: "Paul, is that you?"

Preview: https://youtu.be/S2vwGIEUJ7c

Robin Smith

9/8/2015 09:52:34 am

WHY WASHINGTON AND MAPLE AS A DESTINATION?

Too many clews overtly point to Hunter, his relatives, his properties, and now Sandy Betts reveals that she saw an address book of Darlene Ferrin's that had a NORDEN ski resort PHONE NUMBER in it as well as an ALPINE MEADOWS phone number.

Sandy said she did not now Darlene was interested in skiing. Donna Lass was. She also suspects that Darlene was involved in a counterfeit ring.

Counterfeit rings were common up here at the casino's in the day. These people "laundered" the money over the gaming tables.

ALOT of money.

Alex Lewis

10/25/2015 06:28:39 am

"WHY WASHINGTON AND MAPLE AS A DESTINATION?"

Why Not? He has to go somewhere and give Paul a destination, and no doubt, had He given Jackson & Spruce as the destination, we'd be asking the same question just with two different street names.

Do the names or the location itself have relevance or meaning? Impossible to ever know unless someone can convince He that is simply known as 'UN-SUB' to come forth and tell us......And I wouldn't sit arouns waiting for this to happen.

Robin Smith

9/8/2015 10:17:54 am

AND through all these pages of discussion about Don Fouke what he saw and said, not one mention of ERIC ZELM

Was he just sitting in the patrol car with a bag on his head?

We don't have to worry about that now do we?

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 05:24:39 pm

Well Eric Zelms was sadly dead within 90 days of that oct 11 encounter so not only is he unavailable to question today, but He did not even back then give any interview like Fouke did in Which Eric declared, as example "I saw this man yes, I got Don to stop and then leapt out and tackled this stocky crew cutted man to the floor...." and a decade later declare of the same event "No, I did not see the man at all, I was looking the other way.'
In other words Eric never contradicted himself or gave conflicting versions of what happened that night. Had Eric done so and even though He is no here,today, we'd point to this discrepancy and no doubt it would be A point of discussion.

In the realm of 'Officially....' then Zelms i silent and does not give any comments or statements that we are aware of.
Unofficially: He is said to have admitted to his wife that yes, we stopped and Don did question a middle aged white guy briefly who seemed calm and not at all gave any reason for us to suspect Him of having done anything. He looked so average that nothing at all stood out about Him, He just looked, spoke and seemed like your everyday average guy.

Robin Smith

10/6/2015 09:38:22 am

Well through all of this two things stick out...

one of these SFPD cops revised his description of Z several days after the murder of Stine incident...this REVISED description was literally word for word that of one of the VPD's description of Z...down to the elasticized waist band of the blue windbreaker and BROWN shoes!! REALLY OH REALLY...

can't tell me that the VPD officer was not in cahoots with the SFPD officer....shuffling around these notes I will come across this if you don't have it at your fingertips.

Such detail to be repeated word for word?!...days later, in an official report?!...looking for the VPD cop's name.

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 11:48:56 pm

People still wonder why the original composite was amended and the official claim was and still is as far as I know that, after the composite was created and the witnesses were happy, they suddenly decided they were not happy anymore with its accuracy and went back to create a second.

Fouke all buts gives us the answer why thw drawing was updated by saying in 2007 "Toschi may have been the Inspector that came out and asked me about the composite drawing and I told him He looked similar to the man I had seen but the suspect was older and heavier. Cleatly this is what made the cops want to amend the original slightly because Fouke obviously told them it looked similar yes, but age and weight is wrong. But they couldn't just tell us this back then that the 2nd updated sketch was being created because Fouke had only given the original a 5/10 mark for accuracy because again, neither Fouke nor the SFPD were telling we the people about Fouke seeing a suspect that night so they can't tell us back then it is a second amended sketch based on how one of their cops described him as looking cause they decided not to let us know about it and it's something we would not know of to this day I am more than sure to say had not Zodiac deicided to do the right thing and tell the truth about what happened out there that night and let us the public know about it.
That there says it all, does it not? We can't rely on police or official channels to be honest and truthful and trust them not to withhold information as the SFPD cannot be relied on nor trusted to bring us truth of the events as they happen and we must be thankful to the offender in this case, a serial killing nut who we need to rely on for the truth to come out, police will engage in conspiracy of silence.

Richard

10/12/2015 04:16:51 am

I can understand the need to withhold certain evidence in the following months of an investigation, retaining certain information that only pertains to them and the killer. But after 46 years that reasoning becomes a little suspect, you would imagine that after failing to catch a killer after 5 murders and the mishandling of crucial evidence or even losing it, maybe the time has come to be a little more forthcoming. As you point out correctly, Alex of Welsh ancestry, that the SFPD making no mention of stopping or even passing a suspect until the Zodiac embarrasses them with his letter is telling. They possibly hoped they could sweep this under the rug. What I would like to have seen is Donald Fouke and the three teenagers create a composite immediately and independently of one another and seen if there was any similarity. Then we could be more sure that the description was more valid. We still cannot be sure to this day that the composite drawing is a just likeness to Zodiac that night. And again the unknown witness and comprehensive 1 and a half page police report does nothing to allay the idea that the SFPD were less than forthcoming on the true events of 1969. As Michael Butterfield stated we still may be bereft of many crucial details and possibly some letters that have been withheld. Many people question the Lake Berryessa attack because Zodiac doesn't send a letter referring to it, but he very well could of, would we ever know. I will ask you this mind. The Zodiac sent the Bus Bomb Letter to the San Francisco Chronicle stating "2 cops pulled a goof" and embarrassing them, why didn't the SFPD use the strong arm of the law on suppressing this section of the letter when the Chronicle ran it. Did the police feel they had to, to avoid driving the Zodiac into more action. But what is curious is that I'm fairly convinced a swatch of Paul Stine's shirt was sent with the Bus Bomb Letter, as two San Francisco Chronicle articles say this, along with a Youtube video and three pieces marked A,B and C are clearly present in the police photographs of the shirt. But did the Zodiac really send two letters in close proximity, that of November 8th and 9th. What if the Bus Bomb Letter postmark was fabricated. Sounds like a conspiracy, but why did Zodiac wait a month to outline the cops goof . He must have been itching to rub their noses in their booboos. Maybe Donald Fouke, Armond Pelissetti and the SFPD had time to get their stories straight before the letter was released. It just seems odd that after giving us his complex 340 Cipher and Dripping Pen Card, he would then partly overshadow this with 6 more pages of ranting and a bus bomb diagram. Also he must have been bursting at the seams to notify the authorities of the cops goof and how they let him on his way, but then sits down and designs a 340 code first, THAT is unless the code also makes reference to the Presidio Heights shooting and the subsequent goof. One more thought; Did police authorize the release the letters at the same time to not only give themselves more time to get their stories straight but to deflect attention away from the Bus Bomb Letter with a far more interesting and complex puzzle like the 340.

Richard

10/12/2015 04:40:42 am

Also Alex, if you go to Zodiac letters on Zodackiller.com and click envelope on every single correspondence you will notice that the posting frank or stamp is ALWAYS to the left of the stamps on the upper part of the envelope. ONLY the Bus Bomb Letter envelope has the franking at the bottom of the envelope and stamped at 90 degrees. It seems rather an odd change.

Richard

10/12/2015 04:50:45 am

The Zodiac stated "up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." I reckon this letter could easily have been mailed 9 or 10 days earlier. But who knows.

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 09:43:59 am

Well the Law can't use their long arm to prevent anything that the Chronicle, or any other paper, decides to print. US Constitution is quite clear it's insistence that there be total and complete Freedom of Press. Zodiac knew iof he sent it addressed directly to Avery of The Chronicle then it's the decision to go to press and print falls on the shoulders of one man and one man only.....The Editor.
Again, Zodiac wasn't asking PLEASE RUSH TO EDITOR just cause He liked the Editor, He kmnew He is the man who decides every last thing that gets in and what doesn't.

Toshci and Co can simply ask the paper to not go to press with something and plead a case for not making something public knowledge but that's all they cab do is request. The Editor can grant their request or deny it. The only way a legal inunction and order not to print something by a news agency is to get a Court Order Ordering that it must not go to press and print whatever it may be, usually material and info that could jeopardize National Security etc.

To A Tabloid Editor, seeing such a comment by a serial killer is a Editors wet dream. Controversial! Antagonistic! Likely to cause a public response to this claim etc. If news is so juicy that it will be read by one person who in turn phones their friend "Have you seen what the Zodiac said happened? Oh my God I am stunned.,....Yes it's in today's Chronicle!
No way to do this but I bet if you checked the newspaper sales for that day it wen't in the paper that you'll see the bat graph spike or stand 10 to 15% above the average that day!

Robin Smith

10/6/2015 05:54:06 pm

SFPD memo dated Nov 12, 1969..."The suspect was observed...(Navy or royal blue) elastic cuffs and waistband zipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust brown). May have been wearing low cut shoes.

..."The subjects general appearance to classify him as a group would be that he may be of Welsh ancestry."

Robin Smith

10/6/2015 05:58:29 pm

Oooops! the pants were brown...the shoes were low cut. A really detailed description for a drive by in the dark, street lights or not.

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 12:31:24 am

"The subjects general appearance to classify him as a group would be that he may be of Welsh ancestry."

Yep, this is true. Fouke called my grandfather ,umm, I mean The Welsh Born Zodiac killer over to Him and Fouke suspected this ,man was of possible Welsh descent when He asks as He approaches the Squad car "Hello Buttty..... Wats tha problem here Boyoooo? Strange or suspicious? Nooo not seen anyone, not me Buttttyyyyy. Tarrra now lads and ....You'll be welcome in the Hillllside....."

I have told Rich already of my My family Secret and we are about to go to press with the publishing of my Book; 'Daddy! The Real Son of Zodiac.

I shall be on tomorrows 6 oclock news to receive questions from reporters...."Alex, you claim your dad is the Zodiac, when was it you first had reason to believe this and why?"
Me: "Well, I saw others cashing in on book deals claiming their Fathers were Zodiac, and I was disgusted by this! I saw these people as the clear and morally lacking opportunistic money grabbers they were. So, Don Fouke made some very vague and non literal statement that He used only as an example of Welsh possible ancestry and this was it...Physical Evidence of my being related to and Son of, Zodiac!
"Surely Mr Lewis this cannot be all your basing the claim and idea on?"
Me: No, there is much more.....but I am, afraid you will have to buy the book at a very reasonable £19.99 that, I must point out, will be available in all good book stores next month."

Pssst, Rich, is our deal still on? I agree to you being given 5% of all profits from book sales for your sworn statement to be given in the book "I, R. Gingell who is Honesty personified do swear that I have seen the DNA show both un-sub DNA form letter stamp and DNA of Alex are related. I am stating this of my own free will and choice as the truth as I know it and am not giving false testimony in the expectation of a financial reward. Signed: Richard The Honest-One.

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 03:39:00 pm

Well, today marks another year having drifted by while answers still evade us 46 years on. I sometimes find myself asking hypothetically "Who is He Paul, who did you pick up that night."

I never knew Paul due to not being born until 13 years after His Death and a Continent away when I was but, despite this, I and many other people have not forgot and nor will we ever forget. If i Could speak to Paul I can only say sorry for what happened to you and personally, I want to see justice for you and the others not stand in awe of the coward that blindsided you with a bullet as some at other sites seem to. I and others like me can only apologise and acknowledge That 'Justice Delayed, is Justice Denied' and that today marks the denial of your justice owed for 46 years.
To Fouke, Pelissetti, any other officals who may know more than they are or have been willing to publically admit to? Shame on you! 46 Years of torture for Paul's loved ones not knowing why, abd if you can give them answers but have not done so then just tell yourself every night before you retire....."It's just a cab driver, that's all. His killer is far more important and connected to people in high places and, yes, just one yelow cab driver less.....that's all.'

I hear for them that are keeping info back that Karma is asking about you and how you may be contacted as Karma wishes to come see you as it is said you will be given in return double what you have elected to take from family's their ability to grieve and get closure. Armond won't be loosing sleep tonight over it, Paul's murder is neither his fault nor problem anymore. Don, well, I see a man in the 7 Documentary that looked unhappy, as if He did not want to be there. Looking down at the floor avoiding looking at us the audience, and letting out exasperated signs when asked about his seeing a white male which I would say was a "Sigh.....Here we go, another bull shit version I am under expectation to give here claiming I don't know who Zodiac is and must pretend I didn't stop to speak with him.
I have been sure for a while now, Don knows somehting that troubles him not to be able to disclose, that is written all over his 2007 interview. Armond....He is non empathetic and seems to dismiss the incident as the responsibility of another to disclose, and I never cease to be astonished how self centered people can be sometimes believing that it's justified and totally fine for them to decide they won't do what's right and feel no need to because, as always and most importantly, it is not them or their loved ones suffering, and this is all that matters!

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 04:08:36 pm

Now I can already hear the people who believe official people and their account because they wear a police hat shouting at me wagging fingers saying: "Nobody is withholding anything Alex, don't be so criticial and judgemental without cause nor any grounds."

I know, I am just anti-establishment, yes, this is my cause to accuse. But see, I don't subscribe to the same belief that seems to be held by some that says police men, once they put their hat on and officially become law enforcers, this means they no longer have the ability to lit to people or break the law themselves. These are all fantastic, wonderful man and none would stand for such a cover up because nothing like this has ever been shown to have happened ever becuse it is not possible....

Yada yada yada, blah blah lblah, on and on these people go saying how unfair and hurtful such a claim is to Mr Fouke and I must be concerned with this.
Look, nothing to hide yeah? No under-handed tactics of you scratch my back.....etc, not at all? Ok, there is no intent to conceal here, nor sinister is their silence so, I will ask these people, keeping in mind there is nothing to hide......Who is the man that the on scene witness identified as the mann that shot Paul, and in doing so, ID'd the Zodiac? I cold be convinced that this never being mentioned at the time was not due to any sinister conspiracy if the same people now reveal the Identity of that person. You have nothing to hide, I keep being told this, so who is He, what's this mans name?

Want to know what I think? Redacted is redacted because the witness, and the Authorities too, have been offered a positive ID and they know this man Redacted in that report is the shooter, that's what I think. Now, I welcome and eagerly await the quick response that will prove my assumption is wrong!

Alex Lewis

10/11/2015 04:59:11 pm

Anyway, I have never been keen to run and join the majority opinion where it is safe to be because your in a like minded majority that believe similar to you. If 100% of us agreed that Thing A is absolutely correct and true then nobody would ever question Thing A and test the truth it claims to hold. I rather relish being in a minority, and love being challenged about something I may state I believe or a claim that I endorse.
For example: The overwhelming majority opinion would be, without question, that this case is not solved due to SFPD lacking that crucial piece of evidence. That's what conventional thinkers would likely think and believe. Myself, I flip this right around and believe this case remains publicly unsolved because of that vital evidence being there and they know it, they have that missing piece (ie, suspect ID'd by witness as same man that He/She saw shoot and kill Paul) and its precisely because they knw this and have 'His' Name that they don't seem to be in any rush to re-activate the case and investigate it. You don't investigate that of which no investigation is required. Detectives have already detected and their results are in and fairly conclusive.

I have from day one of looking at this case wondered why in the World would Zodiac seem to simply disappear and stop doing what He stated He liked doing, that being: Killing people? Either He woke up and decided that He is done with killing people now because He has found Jesus and was throwing the question around in his head: "Minister for The Lord......Shooting people to shit........Minister for...." and decided "Minister it will be." He's now a Jehova Witness......not against Himself either. No, He is the man that will be found on tour doorstep next week asking you do you know Jesus, and reciting that "Thou shall do no murder, thus says the Lord thy God."

Refusal to even let it be known that someone at sometime was positively ID'd by a witness tells me straight away that this person is a person of means or someone that should the public be made aware of his identity, would cause absolute embarrassment to the Authorities and so they adopt the attitude of "Pretend this isn't true, no ID of Him ever took place, keep this hidden and hushed up and pretend we don't know anything and label it inactive.
Anyone like a TV show requests a copy of the DNA we have from the back of a stamp and we will say "Dear Sir. Thank you for your enquiry. Fuck off, you ain't having evidence of that of which we already know about. Respectfully, The San Francisco PD....(Public Denials),

Alex Lewis

10/14/2015 10:10:57 pm

While we have been discussing why Fouke would dash to the Presidio without any prompting by another,or any reason to suspect that the Offender may have gone that way, I just read a comment in the Memo that when read along with the sentence before it seems to be saying nothing telling or revealing but, I just read it from the perspective of believing Don dashes to the JK Park area because a White Guy who Don assumed at th time was a helpful witness who said He'd seen a man run into the Presidio and then, the memo comment that Don makes seems to jump out and tell's you that Don is admitting, albeit indirectly, to actually speaking to a person that night who He seems to have genuinely believed was a witness when He states:

"When the correct description was broadcast Reporting Officer informed communication that A possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple Street and into the Presidio."

The first part isn't relevant, its the second bit where Don seems to be confirming what Pelissetti had claimed Don had told Him, that being that Don is told by A White Male that 'Yes, A man just ran into the Presidio' because Don radios communication and doesn't say He has seen suspect going dwn Maple, but He States that He had radioed in that a suspect has been seen running entering the Presidio.

This not only would be consistent with AP claims regarding what Don told him but it just makes general sense because based on the comment in the memo and Zodiacs declaration of the goof pulled by him on cops that night by misdirecting them then what happened was something like this:

- The broadcast comes over radio, Cab Driver robbery in progress, Washington & Cherry St's.
- Fouke acts on this by turning around and then turning West onto Jackson St.
- Approaches Maple, observes WMA and calls him over to ask Had He observed anything and/or anyonme unusual or suspicious? WMA says 'Yes, A man just ran down Maple St into the Presidio.'
- Don heads off up hill toward Arguello Blvd and on way radios an update to base communication, as subtly stated in His memo, that a suspect has been seen running into Presidio by turning North on Maple & running through the wall entrance.
- Don radios this update into communication and they in turn alert all the other units responding that Officers are pursuing the suspect, who is on foot, observed going into the Presidio and directs other units onto West Pacific for back-up and to assist in capturing the suspect.

Rich no word lie mate, all week I have been thinking about tit all making sense about why Don heads for Arguello onto West Pacific etc but I couldn't work out how and why all the other Units seemed to dash for the Presidio and focus the search there. Now it makes complete sense why and how they got there.

What's Happened here Rich is Don has to justify His dashing around to Presidio Grounds & states his reason, at first anyway, was that He'd himself seen the suspect going down Maple.
But as of 2007 He revised His account which does not allow anymore His entering the Pesidio after observing a suspect last heading North on Maple because He did not see Him go down Maple but rather, up a set of steps. So Don will now say, Quote: "My reasoning on that was because turning down Maple leads directly through the wall into the Presidio, which has a lot of foliage."

No No Don, your reasoning on that was 'Because tuning down Maple street through the wall is where a witness has just told me He has observed someone running through that wall into the Presidio.

Alex Lewis

10/14/2015 10:52:19 pm

What Don is doing here, simply because He has to, is eliminating the middle man so to speak. He removes the WMA as the 3rd party that has tld him He'd seen a man run down Maple and into the Presidio and simply claims this as His own observation ie, He is not aware of a man rushing down Maple and through into the Presidio because someone else had seen this, but because He had Himself seen this and alas, no need for anyone to tell him this.

You can never condone lies or the giving of false evidence or testimony Rich so I won't make an exception here for Don but I will say this, given the choices He has to justify He dashing to the Presidio which along with His radioing base to tell them suspect has gone into presidio re-directs the majority of fellow responding untis to that area also, lets just say I can see why He would choose to say what He said and to claims He got there because He Himself has seen A WMA fitting the description trun down Maple because the only other alternative is to tell the truth. . . .

"We had stopped to speak with a White Guy on the sidewalk and I asked Him had He observed anything ort anyone suspicious within the last 5 to 10 minutes and the Gentleman replied that as a matter of fact, He had, and stated that He had just witnessed a man running and turn down Maple, and through into the Presidio. With subsequent facts and details coming forth in the weeks and months that followed I know and freely and proudly admity that I was conversing with the Zodiac Killer Himself who, may I say, was very helpful and willing to direct me to the Presidio to carry out a search for Him and inn doing so, makes me look like a total and complete incompetent, bumbling, gullible dick head.

If faced with the about two options myself, as much as I detest liars and lying, I really would find it hard to be a willing participant in making myself look like the biggest laughing stock on the Planet having been taken for a ride completely by Zodiac.

Richard

10/14/2015 11:30:39 pm

That's all very true Alex, but Donald Fouke was less complicit than the whole SFPD who backed this lie to the hilt, and as a good friend pointed out, was it Donald Fouke's idea to write the scratch. Inevitably prompted by SFPD to release the scratch that coincided nicely with the Bus Bomb Letter, as a sort reply to Zodiac. As BigMajestic pointed out, assuming Donald Fouke was the driver, furthest away from the sighting, how come he evidently never saw anything and contributed nothing to the scratch or police report despite being closer to the Jackson Street sidewalk. Were they protecting a rookie officer from the limelight.

Richard

10/14/2015 11:34:43 pm

CORRECTION
That's all very true Alex, but Donald Fouke was less complicit than the whole SFPD who backed this lie to the hilt, and as a good friend pointed out, was it Donald Fouke's idea to write the scratch. Inevitably prompted by SFPD to release the scratch that coincided nicely with the Bus Bomb Letter, as a sort reply to Zodiac. As BigMajestic pointed out, assuming Donald Fouke was the driver, furthest away from the sighting, how come Eric Zelms evidently never saw anything and contributed nothing to the scratch or police report despite being closer to the Jackson Street sidewalk. Were they protecting a rookie officer from the limelight.

Alex Lewis

10/15/2015 03:34:40 am

I agree as to the main accountability and who it falls on, at the end of the day it is a personal embarrassment for Don yes, but it won't be Don that has to answer for the blunder, it will be the big-wigs in charge over there.
I mean by Don's comments in 2007, where He acknowledges Toschi may have been the Insp. that came to see Him wanting to ask him how accurate the teen's suspect sketch to how He recalled Him and therefore simply means that Toschi knew Don had at the very least seen the WMA suspect, which wasn't even admitted until Zodiac couldn't help himself and wait any longer as He 'Enjoys needling the Blue Pigs' so much.

While Don is not going to be itching to alert the World of His inability to arrest a Serial Killer when that Killer has presented Himself on A Silver Platter for them,. I would hazard a guess that the official decision to stay silent about this encounter came down a chain of command from above.

Richard

10/15/2015 03:51:28 am

Well the scratch from his point of view is correct, he did see a white male as he was approaching the junction of Maple/Jackson, but if you read the entirety of the scratch it says "When the right description was broadcast reporting officer informed communications that a possible suspect had been going north on Maple into the Presidio."

This scratch typed only a month after the shooting totally negates his 2007 claim of being informed of the new description by Armond Pelissetti and reinforces his 1989 claim that he received the new description via the broadcast. But what it also does is totally rubbish his claim that his last sighting was of a man walking up the stairs of 3712 Jackson Street, otherwise in the scratch it would have said " reporting officer informed communications that a possible suspect had been going into 3712 Jackson Street." I am trying to not to make this a Donald Fouke issue, as he has likely done much good in his career, but you have to admit that what it says is that the 2007 documentary is more fantasy than fact. He obviously therefore never turned directly into Cherry, did turn up Arguello, but if he had received the revised description here, what was he doing there.
My reading to make this story fit, is he saw Zodiac by the intersection of Maple and Jackson, Zodiac then turned north towards the Presidio, a little bit further along Jackson (before Cherry), he got the revised description. Suspecting the man he just saw may be Zodiac he continued past the Jackson/Cherry intersection, at this point while approaching Arguello is where Donald Fouke "informed communications that a possible suspect had been going north on Maple into the Presidio", NOT as he claimed in the 1989 documentary where he received the new description. This would be an understandable mistake. In other words he didn't receive the new revised broadcast approaching Arguello, he had received it slightly earlier, but it WAS where he "informed communications that a possible suspect had been going north on Maple into the Presidio". Then he traveled on to West Pacific Avenue.
But we know Donald Fouke's journey to Jackson/Cherry is approximately 2 minutes, by the time he reaches Arguello he "informs communications that a possible suspect had been going north on Maple into the Presidio." Armond Pelissetti then sets off and may explain why he turns east on Jackson up to the Jackson/Maple intersection, he is responding to Fouke's communication that a possible suspect had been going north on Maple into the Presidio and not as he claimed it was just a calculated guess in the 2007 documentary. He meets the man walking the dog and then backtracks to Cherry. Meanwhile Donald Fouke is returning from his search in West Pacific Avenue and the two meet somewhere at the top of Cherry. This way nobody is lying, they have just got the order of events mixed up.

Alex Lewis

10/15/2015 04:48:47 am

Well I totally disagree Rich. In your scenario Rich Don would have to be given the description update literally within 2 or 3 seconds of encountering/passing the WMA. Don or Eric then either using rear view mirror or physically looking back see WMA turn left at the Intersection heading for the wall entrance-way into The Presidio. Seeing this Don would most naturally slam His foot down, swing around onto W. Pacific Ave and yet even though WMA has not got enough time to turn down Maple and drop through the wall entrance, cross W. Pacific and onto the Grounds because Don could not fail to spot Him as He emerges through the Maple wall & drops onto W. Pacific because Fouke at the worst has to coming around the corner from Arguello onto W. Pacific Ave (more likely to be just around Cherry St entrance area and yet despite it not being physically possible without Don almost mowing Him down as He emerges, He somehow manages to do what is not doable. Zodiac did not immediately turn down Maple the second Don has passed him, Zodiac knew that the cops 'Went around the corner' and as such, Don would be turning onto W.Pacific just as WMA turns off Jackson and onto Maple and Don likely get to Maple entrance before Zodiac can get there through into the Presidio.

Alex Lewis

10/25/2015 07:10:14 am

"But what it also does is totally rubbish his claim that his last sighting was of a man walking up the stairs of 3712 Jackson Street, otherwise in the scratch it would have said " reporting officer informed communications that a possible suspect had been going into 3712 Jackson Street."

Well for this to be the truth,you'll have to explain Don Fouke's reasoning and rationality behind His seeming to think it a good idea to chnge his story now in 2007 and declare that the guy was not observed for the final time heading north on maple st but rather, heading north on up steps to home at intersection" and say this if it were not true at all.
All Don has done is insure 1000 more questions are fired at Him similar to the one the Director asks Him 3 seconds after He makes the new updated version of events "You didn't think a sspect seen heading toward a house was important?"

There is not one positive or beneficial reason to Don ammending the version from Last observed on Maple to Last seen heading up steps if it, as you imply, was not true.

And then "otherwise in the scratch it would have said " reporting officer informed communications that a possible suspect had been going into 3712 Jackson Street."

Yes, this is something they'd admit.....come on Rich you can;t honest think that do you? If Don told the truth in his scratch "Subject last seen heading into or toward a property at Jax & Mpe Intersection" then what is the next question every single reader of that statement is going to ask? Yes, they will ask "Really? So when you rushed back to the very Home to search the surrounding grounds and to ensure the occupants were not being held against their will, did you see anything or find the offender?"

How can Fouke possibly say yes He last saw male heading for house but No, He didn't go back there to look for him 3 seconds later when informed that actually, suspect is A White Male?

I mean they allready have been dragged kicking & screaming into an admission of seeing anyone at all there that night by a writer delighting Himself in unleashing ridicule at He being allowed on His way, that is enough to make any white face turn extremely red with embarrassment, so yes, lets add insult to injury and say "We didn't just let him walk away, we knew where He went and couldn't be bothered to go chase him and look in the Last known place He was observed

Richard

10/26/2015 01:19:54 am

That's what I find staggering about mentioning this address, in the 2007 documentary he says he saw a man going up some stairs, but crucially said he never saw him reach the top of the stairs. That is because that was the last thing he saw of this unidentified white male as they passed into the distance. On the other hand his scratch says "a suspect fitting the description of the Zodiac Killer was observed by officer Fouke walking in an easterly direction on Jackson Street and then turn north on Maple Street."
Simply Zodiac cannot be last seen heading up Maple to the park and last seen heading up some stairs to 3712. Only one can be the true story so which is it. Zodiac simply cannot return down the stairs and head down Jackson and turn north on Maple in the 15 seconds Fouke claimed it took him to pass him.

Richard

10/26/2015 01:40:47 am

The only way we can make both of his stories fit, is that when Fouke and Zelms are approaching the Jackson/Maple intersection, they observe in the distance a man entering a stairwell at 3712 Jackson St, as they approach him, before he reaches the top of the stairs, he returns back to the sidewalk as they pull over and call him over, when he informs them of the man waving the gun. In other words as you or I would do, you are entering your residence or maybe in Zodiac's case pulling a feint, but just before you reach the top of the stairwell the police car pulls to the kerb and an officer gets out, so reacting to the fact they likely want a chat you turn back down and approach the vehicle. After the conversation Fouke and Zelm's or one of them returns back to the cop car, meanwhile Zodiac toddles off and turns into Maple. Now I am not saying that is what happened but it is one of the few ways you can explain both stories, but because Donald Fouke has tangled himself up in knots with all these different versions, we are now left not only trying to decipher Zodiac's cryptograms but his recollections of October 11th 1969 to try to make some sort of logical sense to it all, because clearly Zodiac cannot be in two places at once.

Alex Lewis

10/28/2015 12:49:40 am

Absolutely goes without saying that either one or the other is the correct answer/version because for Mr Zodiac, it is not scientifically possible for He to turn and limp His way along Maple to the wall entrance while at the exact same time shuffling up the 7 steps of freedom. This idea won't be contested by me, I agree that only one of these two claims can be accurate and for me everything points to A Zodiac that did not then, nor ant time after, ever turn down Maple and drop through into the Presidio. The reason this seems to make absolute sense, at least to me, is it doesn't just answer certain questions, it gives a kinda seeable logic to that which, without this version, it would not make any sense at all nor could any logic be seen.

Example: Fouke says, in short, His reasoning on why He wen't around onto W. Pacific was because turning down Maple would lead to and then through the wall and into the Presidio which, most importantly of all, Has a lot of Foliage.

Now this on the face of it seems to be sound logic and sensible reasoning because what Don is saying is essentially that knowing turning down that street would give a suspect access to a very expansive and non-lit area with lots of places one could hide due to the excessive foliage, which is just where an escaping suspect would want to get to! And Don is correct yes, but He's also very conveniently overlooking the fact that once you make this claim or assumption, you can't then ignore Cherry st!

To Don I would simply insist that He tell us why man desperate to get to expansive unlit area with lot of trees and bushes will seemingly snub his nose at Cherry Street's far closer and much more conveniently located entrance to this area?: ".

Richard

10/15/2015 04:16:00 am

I am not saying Donald Fouke didn't necessarily talk to Zodiac, but this could explain why Fouke bypassed Cherry, he may not have been directed there by Zodiac. Imagine he has viewed a white male turn north on Maple into the Presidio and he receives the updated description just before the Jackson/ Cherry intersection and the light goes off in his head that he may have just seen Zodiac. His quickest action is not to do a U turn and knows he can access the Presidio quickly continuing onwards to West Pacific Avenue. He gets on his radio and responds, informing communications approaching Arguello. It is possible for him to end up in Arguello without having been directed there by Zodiac. I think the broadcast was the one he sent out in Arguello, not the one received.

Richard

10/16/2015 01:44:43 am

Donald Fouke scratch: "My partner that night was officer E. Zelms of Richmond Station. I do not know if he observed this subject or not."
Now come on, you detailed the suspect almost down to his underpants obviously staring at him for at least 15 seconds but Eric Zelms was oblivious to anybody despite the fact you were both sent a dispatch to be on the lookout for a suspect, but Eric Zelms who could have been no further than 20 feet from anybody travelling down the sidewalk of Jackson Street was totally oblivious to a shuffling, stumbling, rumbling, grumbling semi-limp heading away from a crime scene and unless he was asleep it is quite frankly implausible and that's being kind and furthermore you never asked him or mentioned to him your sighting in the following few hours or days. If two police officers cannot converse after a brutal murder what bloody hope is there for any interdepartmental co-operation, when two officers side by side cannot communicate. I don't buy any of this hogwash. Where is Eric Zelms' scratch, why have we no version of the events that night, it's simple, he was a rookie officer who was kept out of the limelight by SFPD and told to keep a low profile while they concocted this heap of unadulterated bullshit, assuming the public would just swallow this horse dung, like the black male sporting the reddish-blond crew cut, ambling down the extremely affluent Jackson Street. Donald Fouke: "Well I didn't think to mention it at the time, let the inspectors follow through." Well the inspectors did follow through, but not to the door of 3712 Jackson Street, they followed up with a big pile of cow manure, disguised as a police report.

Alex Lewis

10/16/2015 09:17:30 am

"Where is Eric Zelms Scratch?" Same place Don Foukes scratch would be had Zodiac not forced their hand into having to react and say something about His claim that two cops pulled a goof, non existent or if one does exist, we are not going to get to see it.

Was Eric looking the other way? No chance at all because for a start, Eric is riding in the passenger seat which is on the same side of Jackson that White Male is coming down and Foukes subconscious mind, the mind that isn't thinking about the need to lie or falsify but will remember the actual true events, said 'Seeing that it was A White Male in an affluent area, WE didn't think it was the suspect.' Now unless someone can show me evidence that Fouke was employed by SFPD while having multiple personality disorder and the 'We' He speaks of is one of His 7 inner characters then the 'We' is 'Me and Eric.'

Richard

10/16/2015 02:45:40 am

Donald Fouke approaching Jackson/Maple intersection: "The initial radio description of the suspect was that of a black male, 5'10" or something like that Seeing that it was a white male in an affluent neighbourhood walking along the street, we didn't think it was the suspect".
Now don't forget the three teenagers detailed, irrespective of whether it was a black or white male, a man 5'8" to 5'9" in height, reddish-brown hair in a crew cut, stocky build, heavy rimmed glasses and dark clothing. Donald Fouke's scratch was height 5'10", dark clothing, heavy build, wearing glasses, appearing to be of Welsh ancestry. Then you look at his version of the police sketch, he virtually agrees with the teenagers description. Both sketches are near identical albeit one is marginally older. So when Donald Fouke is approaching the intersection, assuming this is Zodiac, everything in the suspect matches the description he was given by the radio dispatcher, apart from as he claims that they were looking for a black male. The crew cut matches, the height matches, the hair colour matches, the clothing matches, the glasses match, we know this because the subsequent drawings match, but all this is totally dismissed because they are apparently looking for a black male, does this make any sense Alex. As we both have agreed on when the dispatcher sent out the radio dispatch, didn't anybody question this description being a black male sporting a reddish-brown/blond crew cut, so evidently portrayed in the sketch.
Everything in the dispatchers message matches this man, at least 5 indicators, but it is totally dismissed on account they are supposedly looking for a black male. Lets flip this story on its head, if the dispatcher had supposedly sent out the description, along with the Caucasian element and the suspect on the corner matched in every single way, but was black, do you think the police would have just continued on their way.
Remember the statement " Seeing that it was a white male in an affluent neighbourhood walking along the street, we didn't think it was the suspect." But it had been a black male in an affluent neighbourhood, but he wasn't wearing glasses, weighed 90 pounds, sported an afro hairstyle, was 5'2" in height and wearing a white suit, he probably would have been shot today and with near certainty would have been stopped in 1969. Or am I being a bit pessimistic.

Alex Lewis

10/16/2015 09:31:18 am

Rich my opinion on this is this: Don knew the correct description before He ever set eyes on the White Male and when He does, knew He matched the suspects broadcast description and stopped probably initially intending to detain/arrest Him. As He pulls up the guy turns onto the steps & Don calls out something like 'Stop, Police' and the man turns to face them and Don recognizes Him as Qvale. He then calls Him over and realizing that while this guy matches the description he has been issued over the air. discounts this multi millionaire as the suspect as they are searching for a robbery suspect who targeted a cab driver who will never have more than a couple of dollars of loot on Him at any one time. Qvale says 'Yes,a man just ran into the Presidio' and Don's off uphill toward Arguello chasing people who don't exist.

So my opinion is Don knew He was a White Guy, and the reason He allowed Him on his way is not because of initial error in suspect race, but because of who He was (millionaire businessman) and the nature of the crime and suspect He's looking for (theft of a couple of dollars from a cabbie) and Don himself hints this is exactly what He did that night when He later says in interview 'I think I second Guessed myself that night' and that comment to me is His way of saying "I assumed, based on who he was, He wasn't going to be the suspect."

Alex Lewis

10/16/2015 10:04:06 am

And to further advance this argument/theory, look at the composite that first appears in 2007's 'This is the Zodiac Speaking.' It pops up on screen when Don is discussing that He had told Insp. Toschi that the suspect He saw looked similar to that Composite, but that the suspect was actually both older & heavier. The sketch pop's up and while it has never been officially confirmed that yes, this is the sketch based on Foukes recollection, given it was shown in the Documentary when Fouke is speaking and is speaking about the suspect being older and heavier I'd say it's a very safe assumption to make that assume that this is a sketch created by Don with a sketch artist.
This sketch I placed side by side with a facial picture of Kjell Qvale from 1971 (may have been 72 not 100% sure but it was one of either) and when doing that you'd almost swear that this photo of Kjell was used to draw the sketch that I had placed by the side, the 07 documentary suspect sketch.

And where is Kjell in the police reports, well, those that exists anyway? Armond makes no mention of seeing or speaking with anybody that night in His Police Report yet we know He did stop to briefly question a white male because He tells us He did later on and on camera in 2007. Where is this person and a report of His encounter with Him in the report? I would, at the very least, expect to read "RO conducted search of area along Cherry and then Jackson streets as far as Maple on Jackson. Saw nothing unusual nor anybody scaling the Presido wall, and witness on Maple, A Mr Kjell H. Qvale, 3636 Jackson Street, spoke with me and confirmed that He had not seen anything nor anyone acting suspicious.'

But no, here in this instance the police seem to want to break every rule of procedure they can. Why bother reporting people in the area even as witnesses? No other agency would adopt this indiotic policy would they? Oh, they do? Opps.
Ok then so if Offices see Suspect and don't recognize him as someone they believe could not be responsible and see Him going toward an occupied residence but at the moment they do are doing so having been issued a BMA description and get the amended correction a minute or so later then, would these Officers be following proper procedure to ignore this location and property altogether and let the occupants deal with a an intruder that's armed and extremely dangerous while you and the rest of the Dpt. are organizing dog teams to go running around in the dark of the Presidio?

Rich sometime I get angry at this whole thing because there is nothing worse than someone insulting your intelligence by asking you to believe something that is absolutely ridiculous.
Some of what these professional officers expect you to accept at true and accurate and think they can get you to buy into it just because they have a job title of law enforcement officer is laughable. I mean Armond Pelissetti may as well tell me 'I could not take a left at Maple into the Presidio to check for a suspect Alex because as I looked that way, they Fairy Guardians of The Presidio were hovering over the entrance not allowing anyone in.'

Alex Lewis

10/24/2015 08:53:35 pm

Rich you ,mentioned Don's comment of:

"The initial radio description of the suspect was that of a black male, 5'10" or something like that."

Let's take this situation and apply it as if You and I were in Don's place and had been issued over the air a BOLO for a BMA, 5' 10.
I know how I would feel about it or how I'd see the situation if it was me, but I want to ask you independant of my own Opinion or view.....

Would you, having been given a BOLO for a BMA on the night, appear to harbour great regret, even seeming to exhibit guilt as if He was to blaim for not detaining The Zodiac that night, knowing that your radio had given you the specific order to BOLO for a Black/Negro Male Adult?

Even Armond noticed Don's apparent unease with not arresting Zodiac or, at least as He knew on the night, a homicide suspect in a robbery gone wrong when Armond offers His sympathy to Fouke by stating "I feel bad for Him (Fouke) if He believes that that was The Zodiac. I don't think it was."

The point I am making Rich is this: Me, personally, I would hold no regret nor place the blaim at my own feet and clearly appear as if this bothers me half a Century later if I knew I had been told/ordered to look for a suspect that is African American and I therefore bypassed a White Guy who, it appears in all likelihood, was the true offender.
I accept people are different, but I can't understand being bothered by,if you'll excuse the term, Someone elses fuck up. You can't harbour regret that you went West and the Target was running East if your acting on directions given by another who is in a position to know more about that of which He now is advising you about.

I maintain this is yet another reason to believe that, contrary to official claims, there never was A BMA brodcast

Alex Lewis

10/16/2015 10:39:52 am

I mean if you want to know how an report of an investigation or crime should look, then look no further than Lake Herman Road. We have an official record of who was out in that area at or within a relevant time frame. Solano County Sheriffs Office did everything the way it should be and what results from this is a 'There you go, what you see is what you get' end report. If it was seen, it's reported. If they were there, their names recorded. If it was alleged, it is recalled as such. Solano investigated the double homicide and keep police reports and records as they do which accumulate with what we have today. All those out Lake Herman Road within a time frame relevant to the crime itself, their names are recorded along with their addresses. All vehicles that were alleged to have been seen we are told about. Which Officers responded and what they did when getting there and is a consistent account.

And Solano followed these procedural rules to the letter because it is required for them to do so and the reason they have listed the names & addresses of all contactees and basically give us an accurate and detailed run down of what they learned, what they subsequently did to investigate it, and what the result of the investigation was they did because they have nothing to conceal nor anything to hide. They don't know something that they don;t want us knowing about.

The SFPD: Suspect was positively identified by a witness in the murder of cab driver. This is nothing to mention in any report nor of any importance to anyone and the public need not know of this. Cop see;s and questions man one block from crime scene and does not bother reporting his encounter so a name and address is out of the question. Why is Kjell not treated the same by SFPD as Homer Your was by the Solano Sheriffs? Anyones guess, they abandon protocol and ignore procedure and all this is is a simple innocent witness on a street. Believe that if you can. So we have virtually no official record of the murder of Paul Stine and the tiny amount that we are privy to leaves out at least one important and crucial encounter on a street that we know of, so be confident at your own peril that they are concealing encountering 2nd or 3rd individuals.
Armond also feels that His training is useless and ignores it feeling He knows best and that it's far far safer to expose yourself on a sidewalk at night chasing a suspect who He knows has just execute d a cab driver in the coldest of blood. If you were to point out 'But Mr Pelissetti, you have a vehicle right here Sir.' You would be told "Silence! I know what's best so shut up!' If you attempt to tell Armond that 'You would also stand a much better chance of making ground on and then catching up with your target' You would find yourself being informed 'Drive after him? What, like in some sort of vehicle? What a silly little boy you are. Give chase in a vehicle.....MUHAHHAHAHAHA'
Did you capture your target after Armond? "Piss off or I shall draw my weapon..."

Alex Lewis

10/17/2015 05:47:52 am

In my opinion the scenario above makes perfect sense if it's Qvale Don see's. It explains why He let Him on His way, the crime is murder in commission of a robbery and here Don is faced with a multi-millionaire businessman who is also highly influential and politically connected so Don makes instant assumption: 'This is not the suspect, this is Kjell Qvale.' Don later hints at this being the case when He admits to second guessing himself that night. Also, this scenario explains the need to invent the completely backward and highly stupid dispatcher throwing out BOLO' over the radio for a Black Male Adult when 10 second prior to this airing He had been told by the Caller phoning in that there is a cab driver being robbed and assaulted at Wash. & Cherry St by a White Male, 5 '10, blondish hair with red tint in a crew cut wearing Horn Rimmed Glasses.

Despite clearing the mystery up nicely in these above scenario's where the official version just isn't plausible nor even possible sometimes, it also explains with satisfaction why Don Fouke did not rush back to 3712 Jackson because If He'd been issued a BMA in error and passes white guy and 30 seconds later gets an amended White Male update then there simply is no question where Don has to go, there is no alternate or other option, Don is dashing back to 3712. No obviously, if Don knows that the guy He saw was Mr Qvale and totally discounts Qvale as not being even a remotely possible as their suspect then, once again, there is your reason and justification as to why Don did not rush back to that location as He absolutely simply has to do if He doesn't have strong reason to believe that that man He saw is not the guy their after.

I know why people are hesitant to accept this scenario even if it clearly answers all the things that don't make sense in the official story and it's because people simply do not want to believe nor accept that police would cover this up once they realized what happened and knew who Zodiac was. We'd all want to believe that the if SFPD had evidence that this or that person was Zodiac that they'd be smashing through His front door and 7 SWAT Officers storming His property.
Also, the vast majority will do what Don Fouke did on Oct 11 when you suggest Kjell is The man responsible, that being, dismiss this idea as just not plausible because Kjell is rich and has powerful connections. I have no argument with millionaire businessmen not being the first people you think of as suspects when the crime is serial murder, but Zodiac in His crimes was an exception to all the known 'rules' in terms of MO etc, so why is it unlikely to think the offender behind the persona is an exception to the rule as a successful businessman? Ask FBI profiler Richard Walter why Zodiac was never caught and He'll tell you, as He did in a report He wrote on the suspect that: "Suspect is someone who already has much power influence in His every day life, but this is no longer enough for Him and He want's more to the point where He want's the power over life and death itself. The reason He was not caught is because those seeking Him were looking for the wrong type of suspect."

Richard

10/17/2015 07:06:37 am

I always respect your opinion Alex, but I don't believe for one minute this man was Zodiac, I much preferred Lawrence Kane, even though I don't think it's him either.
"By 1970, Qvale's organization was selling more than 160,000[2] cars in the United States. The Austin-Healey, produced by the British Motor Corporation (BMC), was popular with American buyers. BMC's announcement that it would end production of Austin-Healeys created a problem for Qvale, who stood to lose sales. It was also unwelcome news for Austin-Healey's designer Donald Healey – who received a royalty on each Austin-Healey sold[2] – and for English car manufacturer, Jensen Motors, who built the Austin-Healeys for BMC. This prompted discussions between these three parties which ultimately led to a plan for the design and production of a vehicle to fill the gap the Austin-Healey would leave. In 1970 Kjell Qvale became the majority shareholder in Jensen Motors. The first production version of the Jensen-Healey was completed in 1972"
I don't see a man involved in such a successful career, driven by motivation right up to his death, affording him the time to go gallivanting around the streets of northern California shooting young defenseless teenagers, not to mention sitting down at night concocting all the ridiculous letters. The English equivalent would be Richard Branson hopping out of his hot air balloon on the way to a business deal and indiscriminately shooting anyone passing the scene.I have watched a few videos of Kjell Qvale and I see nothing but an entrepreneur, a creator, not a destroyer. I wonder in previous years who has been the wealthiest serial killer ever in America.

Alex Lewis

10/17/2015 07:42:29 am

Rich I am by no means saying "Kjell is Zodiac, end of story" because I won't see the evidence for while choosing to ignore that which is against which in this instance, Zodiac being described as a stocky, round faced man and that is not the tall and thinly built Kjell.

What I am saying this: If you gave me two scenarios and asked me to pick one as far more likely than the other and they were: No.1, Fouke didn't stop white man as some complete idiot broadcasts Black instead of White Male, and Don see's the white male and has no idea who He is as He heads toward a house and then 20 seconds later gets told whether by Armond or Dispatch Update that the suspect is White and then Don ignores the fact that He saw a white male with glasses and a crew cut head for the house by deciding not to bother going back there then in the space of 90 seconds we have the most incompetent dispatcher who is color blind (or deaf in this case) followed a minute/90 seconds thereafter by an act of criminal incompetence by Fouke followed by Armond deciding that procedure is to be followed by other cops but He can do as He pleases and doesn't bother recording any names of people seen and spoken to in there are and on and on this goes or Scenario No.2, No dispatch error, white guy let on his way due to being too influential and not a man who you would ever expect to be responsible for murder of a cab driver and so Don doesn't even consider him viable and this is why He truly didn't return to 3712, then I am opting for No.2

I appreciate you stating you respect my opinions mate, but you know, I am sure, that your more than free to state that wonderful line delivered by Joe Peschi in My Cousin Vinny where after the Prosecution has delivered a very damming opening argument and said why the defendant is guilty, Defense Attorney Peschi stands, walks directly up to the Jury and says: "Hi..... Um,, "(Points at Prosecutor).. "Everything that that man just said is Bull shit, Thank you." :-)

Alex Lewis

10/24/2015 10:58:58 pm

.."I always respect your opinion Alex, but I don't believe for one minute this man was Zodiac."

Mr Speaker, may I firstly congratulate my Right Honorable Antagonist on always respecting my opinions, a fete even I as their owner cannot always do.
The Public need to be assured that my Right Honorable Antagonist is going to give up before long and just agree with the Leader of the Opposition in the form of myself that Zodiac was on foot at LHR?" ****YEAHHHHHHHHH*** roars the back-bench MP's who also appear to point and wave little paper fans ferociously while shouting yeahhh.

If you insist on maintaining your own opinions Richard I shall appeal to to Internet Law Enforcement people such as have been seen at other sites called 'GODS' ....excuse me, I mean MODS to have you arrested for resisting a lawful request by a Welsh Person with MBE. 90 seconds to make your decision Richard, then I'm briefing Google Chrome Delta Force SWAT team with order to shoot to kill own opinion on sight!

Alex Lewis

10/24/2015 11:41:09 pm

But to be serious though Rich, specific seriousness paid to you pointing out:

"By 1970, Qvale's organization was selling more than 160,000[2] cars in the United States."

I dont doubt Qvale's sale figures and Company Turnover and Profits for 1970 Rich, He certainly had a bran for good Business and the ability to spot a nieche in the Automotive Market and fill that gap in the Market and everything, but I'm struggling to see the point you are making here Rich or any relevance being a successful businessman with Multiple Millions in Profits which He built from nothing to a Franchise has to His possible free tme hobby's of shooting people because He think it's so much fun?

Robert Hansen ran a successful Bakery and employed staff and everything but He sttill flew young girls out to Alaska to hunt them and shoot dead every Month or so.
I mean Ted Bundy could have been successful at Law if He'd stuck to studying for His Law Degree instead of constantly consumed with killing brunette Co-Ed girls. Even the presiding Judge told Ted straight after handing Him a Sentence of Death: "It's a real shame having to meet under these circumstances, young man. You're a bright, bright young man, I'd have loved to have had you practise Law in my Courtroom. It's a damn shame Son, but you choose the other road. You take care now partner."

John 'Pogo Kind Clown Entertainer' Gacy, Owner, Maniging Director and CEO of His own Construction Company & was just the Pillar of His Community winning the JC's Man of the Year Award and securing a photograph of Himself meeting and shaking hands with the President of the United States Himself on Friday, celebrate with a rape and murder while sodomising His young male victim of Saturday, burying under home on Sunday.

Pont is Rich, Being successful in personal working life s no vaccination against the compulsion these serial killers have to kill and kill again. BTK called it Factor X, Z - "This thing in me" & many others admitting that if released, they'd go straight back to killing people immediately. No amount of success in person working life will quench that need for this type of disordered personality.

Alex Lewis

10/17/2015 08:03:52 am

"I have watched a few videos of Kjell Qvale and I see nothing but an entrepreneur, a creator, not a destroyer."

Ted Bundy had Lawyers who He was in Law School with getting a fund together to pay for a top defense attorney for their good friend Ted who, as they said, could never have done what the State accuses Him of having done, This, one of the contributors to the fund said, was an error made to their eternal shame.
Similar with our Part Time Clown - Full time Serial Killer friend Mr Gacy, His fellow JCs members were using their connections to try and get the prosecutor to understand that they simply got the wrong man because the John they knew could never have done this. This was after His arrest but before the crawl space excavation. Then the supports of Gacy supported no more and even though they still found it hard to believe John had done this, they were not impressed nor did they buy His explanation of the body's of 33 young men under His home were planted there by Police while He was at work in order to frame him.

As ann Rule said of Her friend and suicide helpline worker Mr Bundy, she felt safe having him walk her to her car and she mentioned once to Bundy how she was scared because of this lunatic on the loose and He smiled and told Her He doubt's she would be the killers type and that she will be safe with Him.

These killers are extremely manipulative and don't go round with people saying of them "Look, Now that man there could be a serial Killer because He looks and acts like one."

In fact Rich, what you said about seeing nothing that leads you to believe or suspect Kjell is anything other than a businessman, that is exactly the kind of thing that gets stated about Serial Killers all the time. Their ability to wear a mask of sanity and appear 'too normal' to be a lunatic killer is a misconception and an idea that serial killers are easy to spot as they look like monsters is one we would do well to abandon.

Richard

10/17/2015 09:18:44 am

I'll have to watch that film Alex, point taken overall. Just had a vision of Kjell Qvale riding horseback down Jackson with a spreadsheet in his hand. Ted Bundy was a strange character, articulate and intelligent, just shows the madness is just beneath the surface.

Richard

10/17/2015 09:21:49 am

I wonder what most women would do today presented with a man with an arm in a sling dropping a package or groceries.

Alex

10/24/2015 03:30:40 pm

Well if a White Male, arm in sling and apparently struggling to carry the 45 books with 1 arm and asks preety brunette "Scuse me Love, I don't suppose you could take some of these books and open the rear car door and place them inside could you?" I would Imagine the young lady would reply "No Ted, I can't you sick and very non innovative copying twat..." and then break the other arm just to make sure He can't fake at least one broken arm.

Back them personal safety gadgets were not really on the market so to speak. Today....different story. Only last week I approached a young Co-Ed girl and asked 'Sorry to trouble you, but as you see I have a broken forearm so could you lean into my vehicle and retrieve my books from the rear seat please...." and she replied by pepper spraying me blinding the shit out of me so I had no idea where I was staggering before she introduced 50,000 Vlts to the situation in the form of personal taser. Last thing I remember was collapsing in a heap of convulsing lump of total non-threatening lard that could no longer see.

I don't ask for anyone to assist me anymore on account of being mistaken for a member of The Theodore Robert Bundy fan-club & willing copycat club.

Alex Lewis

10/24/2015 03:41:14 pm

"Just had a vision of Kjell Qvale riding horseback down Jackson..."

With The Black-Beauty theme playing as He bursts down the street? Most relevant theme you see as 'Black-Beauty, AKA Suspect Racial description Error' comes to mind.

Imagine Pelissetti if Kjell did have a four legged friend that was slighty larger than a dog and this one was walking its owner? ..."Freeze thoroughbred, Hold it right there! Don't you trot one step! Are you......(voice quivers) Are you one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Please! Your not 'Death' riding into town are you?" When Kjell says yes Armond would then run away screaming for Don to stop playing on JK's sea-saw and help

Richard

10/26/2015 02:35:23 am

I have doubts that Zodiac had any connection to 3712 Jackson Street and likely only had limited knowledge of this area of Jackson Street and if he lived nearby or had a car parked up, had probably originally intended to leave the taxicab in Washington and Maple, as was detailed in the taxi log, but unforseen events caused him to travel one block further, hence his trek east on Jackson. I believe Zodiac knew nothing about the access to West Pacific Avenue from Cherry Street, as the cars and vegetation would have masked his view, but he may deliberately have scoped out the Maple exit route. When Pelissetti went on his search up Cherry he stated that when he reached the intersection of Jackson and Cherry he had to make a choice, but since he was on the east side of Cherry he turned east on Jackson, probably what Zodiac did. However Zodiac made the strange choice apparently of crossing the road to face oncoming traffic. Now if Zodiac lived at 3712 Jackson Street, then his knowledge of the area would have been good and common sense would have told him he still had a 2 minute walk into possible oncoming police vehicles before reaching home, whereas the sensible choice was to head north on Cherry, take the less illuminated West Pacific Avenue and enter 3712 Jackson from the rear, that is common sense. Also if Zodiac was spotted on the north side of Jackson Street this also negates any idea that his vehicle, if he had one, was parked on Maple's south side, because then crossing to the north sidewalk was absolutely pointless. Common sense tells you he crossed to the north side of Jackson for one of two reasons 1. His left side had sustained the main blood transfer from a Washington and Maple shooting and he had coasted the taxicab from Maple to Cherry by leaning against Paul Stine, so was facing the blood away from the view from the roadside, hence his feint up the stairwell OR it was instinctive because his ultimate intention was to head into the north side of Maple towards the park. It would have been far more sensible to remain on the south side of Jackson but his ultimate aim was to head either to the park or upper reaches of Maple, hence the flawed but instinctive move to cross the road. The exit up Maple was detailed in Donald Fouke's scratch and I tend to believe this was the final destination of the Zodiac as opposed to the 3712 fairy story, that I still cannot reconcile why Fouke brought up, because it makes him even less credible than before. I know you don't believe Zodiac entered the park Alex, but for me personally if I had committed this crime and performed some limited planning, it would be the logical hiding ground to dissolve away into the night, then head east to the Cow Hollow area, either home or to a waiting vehicle, but the argument of whether he entered the park or not, we have covered before. But three things gel together for me 1. Fouke stated he saw Zodiac enter the north side of Maple 2. I firmly believe Zodiac intended the murder and exit of the taxicab at Washington and Maple in a direct route to the Jackson/Maple intersection, which is why he was heading east on Jackson and 3. His instinctive action to cross onto the north sidewalk of Jackson was preemptive of a man who intended to turn left by the Jackson/Maple intersection.

Alex Lewis

10/28/2015 02:23:49 am

Rich you said: "had probably originally intended to leave the taxicab in Washington and Maple, as was detailed in the taxi log, but unforseen events caused him to travel one block further, hence his trek east on Jackson."

Yeah but Rich if you support the idea/theory that contests Zodiac is planning all along to escape via the Presidio then surely Rich the cab at Cherry Intersection one block further than the requested and logged destination of Maple Intersection is not of any relevance to yourself because it does not matter logistically because His destination is the Presidio and as such, He can be on Washington at Maple Intersection, Cherry Intersection or even a block short at Spruce Street Intersection it does not matter because all three of these have their own entrance the same distance away at the bottom of them.

All He is required to do is stop at any of these Intersections along Washington Street and exit the Cab and walk down Cherry, Maple and/or Spruce where it intersects with Jackson Street and then He need only cross Jackson to other side of the street and whatever of these 3 street's He's on, all three have will have their respective entrances available and waiting.

Which Intersection He was at and why Rich only becomes important from my perspective because I simply cannot overlook the fact that He ignores the entrance to the Presidio at Cherry Street, which in turn gives way to my then becoming extremely suspicious of this guy heading for Park area or general area at all in or around the Presidio. If it were His target to get to for escaping the area then there is no question in my mind that Fouke wouldn't see anyone because He is gone, not on Jackson, no white male visible anywhere and that would be due to His going off the road/street Via Cherry in a normal scenario where His risk of capture hasn't been increased 10 fold but then . . .

Add the known details of red lights and sirens being activated as we know they were just as Z is leaving the cab and these are sirens Rich that you I both know & agree are sirens coming from patrol cars that a literally a couple block away at most and yet He still does not proceed straight over the intersection of Jackson at summit of Cherry but turns rights and wanders off down the sidewalk.

This get's me frustratedly angry and only 2 days ago over on ZKM website that I went about making a few points that I regret doing in one way but I did mention after the comments were made that I don't mean or want to sound as if I am insulting Sandy B because I really do appreciate and respect all that She has done to help over the last several years and have much to thank her for. I just can't understand why, like i said to Her, people who I know to fairly good intelligence, sound mind and ta rationality clear in their thinking seem to so willingly believe and endorse the concept that Zodiac heading for the Presidio is doing so by shuffling off as quick as He can to Maple as if Cherry st entrance doesn't exist.

Richard

10/28/2015 02:43:24 am

Cannot agree more, anyone who had thoroughly scoped the area or knew the area well and intended to head to the park would logically head straight on up Cherry into the park, especially with wailing sirens. We can both agree on this, but Zodiac didn't. But that doesn't mean his intention was never to head to the park.
1 https://goo.gl/maps/oJu6r4o7nF72
2 https://goo.gl/maps/n5HM8RG38hG2
3 https://goo.gl/maps/ayz7SaPdr2q
These are today's views at the top of Cherry, Maple and Spruce.
If they were like this in 1969 and Zodiac was not totally familiar with these cut through's, looking at the images Zodiac may have believed there was no access from Cherry or Maple into the park.
Spruce is a much clearer thoroughfare and clearly access can be seen by the uninitiated.

Richard

10/28/2015 03:01:18 am

Zodiac by all accounts did make the illogical choice of heading east on Jackson and surely would have headed north on Cherry had he know their was access. But it is my belief he was simply unaware of the two access points from Cherry and Maple OR he was aware of the Maple access point, but not Cherry and as you pointed out above he could have exited the cab at three points and headed straight into the park. His original destination was Washington and Maple, but things went awry, we don't know what, but his mind was changed by something he observed or some mishap. Lets say he had initially scoped the Maple exit to the park, which as you said above is directly away from Washington and Maple, but because he inadvertently ends up one block down he instinctively heads up Cherry and east on Jackson (he hasn't scoped the north Cherry exit and is unaware of access so he bypasses it). When he arrives near the Jackson Maple intersection, Fouke arrives and he directs them up Jackson and towards West Pacific Avenue, so Zodiac now thinks better of heading that way himself. He continues down Jackson to the next intersection (it takes 2 mins), meanwhile Fouke has returned after his 2 min reccy of the park area. From this distance Zodiac can see and hear the patrol car, but Zodiac is too far away to be spotted. He now knows it is safe to enter the park as originally intended, but he thought better of, when stopped by Fouke and Zelms. The coast is now clear and into Spruce he goes.

Alex lewis

11/1/2015 10:57:36 am

Rich, here's another scenario in which, the time line fits better from vacating the cab to encountering Fouke, gives us a possible alternate answer as to Z's ignorance of Cherry Entrance, and how Zodac would end up speaking to Don not Eric.

Graysmith gets blasted as blunder cursed idiot by making claims that are incorrect, locations of crimes and or the detail of it wrong etc......However

Robert had for many years stated Paul had picked up His fatal last passenger outside the Westin St. Francis Hotel while everyone simpy scoffed at His stupidity, ignored His claims and went about believing The point of pick up to bee 'Somewhere near Mason & Geary Streets.' Well Hines report seems to give Robert Credit and the pick up point was the Westin.

Have a look at this clip Rich following this post where Robert, standing on Jackson, declares "Right about here is where the encounter took place" and He is on basically one or two houses onto Jackson off Cherry, and on the South side of the street, Don's side. Now in this clip the commentary suggests Idiot Bob has got the wrong place again, you know, like the Westin Comment. If the encounter takes place here Rich, clears a lot up

Here's another scenario in which, the time line fits better from vacating the cab to encountering Fouke, gives us a possible alternate answer as to Z's ignorance of Cherry Entrance, and how Zodac would end up speaking to Don not Eric.

Graysmith gets blasted as blunder cursed idiot by making claims that are incorrect, locations of crimes and or the detail of it wrong etc, but if RG is correct here, certainly explain a hell of a lot....

https://youtu.be/TfJYFeTD48Y?t=2m59s

Richard

11/1/2015 03:47:27 pm

A very interesting take Alex and would explain Donald Fouke being the primary observer from the driver side and the extensive detailed description he went into and would explain why Zodiac would consider venturing away up Jackson as opposed to scuttling through the bushes at Cherry, he was distancing himself from the scene and not giving his immediate direction away. But a few things need explaining: Zodiac described the encounter at about 3 minutes and Donald Fouke's timeline supports this, with his description of the encounter somewhere near Jackson and Maple, so why would both lie about the position of the encounter. The top of Cherry is only one minute from the crime scene, however the justification for Zodiac being on the north side of Jackson Street is limited as it has always made more sense for him to be on the south side, away from advancing traffic. But also like I said, if Zodiac didn't know the area extremely well the bushes and trees, plus it was dark may have obscured any obvious exit from the top of Cherry, as well as Maple. It seems Robert Graysmith has become an easy target for Zodiac sleuths, who with hindsight have now honed their facts, but what some people seem to forget that without Robert Graysmith doggedly keeping the case alive these Zodiac sleuths probably wouldn't exist. Can you elaborate on this idea.

Alex Lewis

11/1/2015 04:23:49 pm

Would answer one question, then create another two in process yes. This ain't 'My take' Rich as in I believe it, I just stick it out there as a consideration like many other scenarios and theories.

"But also like I said, if Zodiac didn't know the area extremely well..."

And how likely would that be? He wouldn't have an extremely well local knowledge and I am not asking nor expecting Zodiac to spend The Two Week's between Berryessa and the night Oct. 11 itself wandering up & down West Very Specific Avenue on His knees with a magnifying glass before going door to door conducting a survey: "Hi, will be in at 10:00pm on Oct 11th? You won't? Fantastic and.....Gooooooooood-Byyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

But I imagine He considered 'If plan A goes tits up and Maple isn't available then lets go check out what other plan B Escape Options are there available.

Richard

10/26/2015 03:30:57 am

To the right honourable Reverend Welsh Chappie, MBE, OBE, CBE, professor of all things Zodiac I have a question. We both believe Zodiac spoke to the cops, and they pulled a goof. But that would mean Zodiac is a schizophrenic, he boasts about this, highlighting it in the Bus Bomb Letter but what the hell, he will lie about everything else in both letters about entering the park. He has nothing more to gain after already embarrassing them with the so called 'goof' on Jackson Street. Your right honourable Welshness, are you sure it is not presumptuous of you questioning the Zodiac's credibility, when clearly he told you the truth about the police stop in Jackson Street, to now pour huge scorn on his Boston Tea Party in the park. Zodiac would be disgusted by you doubting his letter, when clearly he was telling you the truth all along. Shame on you !

Alex Lewis

10/28/2015 03:26:08 am

"To the right honourable Reverend Welsh Chappie, MBE, OBE, CBE, professor of all things Zodiac I have a question."

Well thank Richard, you clearly recognize excellence when you see it and wish everyone else was as observant as yourself. Indeed, I settled on a decision yesterday to proceed and go ahead with legally changing one's name, well no so much changing my name so much as taking my first Name 'Alex' and moving it over to the right one space and into the middle name space thus creating a position or vacancy available for a new Christian Name to be taken on and this vacancy will be filled with a brand new. . . "Sir" as my Christian Name, which will be be followed by the newly assigned position name of 'Alex.'
Then I shall run off to the Library and request a membership form so I can fill in 'Name' section with massive, overly-huge block capital letters... "S I R A L E X" then hand it to the pretty Oriental girl that works there (at least she did 18 months ago anyway).
I will be sat hoping someone questions the name and shows scepticism and call me out about it where I will then instantly throw myself off my chair into the air and rave at the receptionist "HOW F'NG DARE YOU! I HAVE NEVER IN MY BEEN SO INSULTED! IN FACT, I MAY EVEN HAVE NO CHOICE OTHER THAN TO CRY!" Hehe.

Well I think it's about time everyone acknowledged that among them in the form of Myself they have a once in a generation Genius that is only excellent, but is also at the same time happens to be Welsh! In fact Richard I think I'll start a fixed fee to speak to me. I mean my presence here is a fee gift to all the lesser important people, so while I won't ask the award I do deserve for gracing the place with my free inspirational presence I shall call upon my self control and not demand my qualifying award.

So I am here for no charge and please, hold your applause and worship for later as I wish to ask my subjects if any of them has a question for me? If they have, I must be lavished with Fifty Quid first for the Honor you have my responding to you. So for now at least, I bid you good-day peasants! Sir Alex the Great MBE OBE CBE & WCE (Welsh Chappies Empire)

Richard

10/26/2015 10:13:33 am

"As of yet I have left no fingerprints behind me contrary to what the police say in my killings I wear transparent fingertip guards. All it is is 2 coats of airplane cement coated on my fingertips -- quite unnoticible + very efective."
I am sure the police know about trace evidence and assuming the police have kept the sections of Paul Stine's shirt, it would not be too difficult to determine whether this statement was true. Airplane cement is brittle and would undoubtedly have fragmented during the Zodiac's tearing of Paul Stine's shirt and not only deposited on the shirt, but in the undried blood on the shirt and a simple modern test using gas chromatography–mass spectrometry would easily identify this claim.
Zodiac also stated "So as you can see the police don't have much to work on. If you wonder why I was wipeing the cab down I was leaving fake clews for the police to run all over town with, as one might say." Well he claimed he left no fingerprints behind and I sincerely doubt he had somebody else's hand or fingers in his pocket, so the only fake clues while wiping down the taxicab he could have left was the blood on the panel between the driver and left passenger door, but why would that be fake, did they compare this blood genetically to Paul Stine to see if in fact it was Paul Stine's or did they just assume it was. I know it sounds far fetched, but since Zodiac never claimed the Berryessa attack, is it just remotely possible this blood on the car panel was Bryan Hartnell's or Cecelia Shepard's, that he may have still been in possession of from the knife he used in the attack. Highly unlikely I know, but what other fake clue could he have left while wiping down the taxicab.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 09:37:19 pm

Well I don't know about the blood being tested to determine the type but as for the claim Zodiac made: "So as you can see the police don't have much to work on. If you wonder why I was wipeing the cab down I was leaving fake clews for the police to run all over town with, as one might say, I gave the cops some bussy work to keep them happy."

Well Zodiac here seems to be worrying us wonder why He did something and so He decides to give us the answer just incase we are wondering Why and on verge of asking the question outright. So He says If we are wondering why he was wiping down the cab, He was leaving fake clews for police......which would mean then that He wasn't wiping down the cab at all then because I can't see how one goes about wiping away any possible evidence while at the same time planting false evidence. He was doing something, that much is sure. I just a concept that came to mind which I don't know is possible to have happen but anyone with Crime Scene Investigation & specifically Latent Fingerprints and their lifting from a surface etc may know the plausibility of this idea.....

What if Zodiac didn't have, as we've joked about previously Rich, a human hand or a couple of severed fingers carrying in the Pleated Pocket because He didn't need an actual hand or finger, just the latent fingerprint of a finger. Latent prints are prints that are not easily visible, and hence we have 'Dusting for prints' and if A Latent is discovered, it can then be physically lifted from the surface it is found on, and taken and placed onto another surface where graphite will be slowly poured over or onto it which will then bring forth the print and the ridge details.

So, in theory, is it possible for a person with this knowledge and ability (Such as Hal, not your secret Pal, Snook with His crime scene and fingerprint expertease?) to use a latent print to do the same but in reverse and not lift a latent off a surface, but put an existing latent onto a surface planting it and then, instead of the Lab substance Graphite used to smear onto for bringing up the print's ridge detail, He simply used blood to have same effect?

Richard

10/26/2015 10:22:55 am

This would also answer the question of the gloves that were found in the taxicab. They were size 7, so likely too small to be Zodiac's, but a simple test on the inside portion of the fingertips would easily detect any airplane cement, if these were his gloves. However if no airplane cement was found it would not prove they weren't his gloves, as he may just have been lying in the letter.

Alex Lewis

10/29/2015 05:13:14 am

Not that there is a chance in Hell it will happen because it's evidence stored by the a certain agency with the acronym of SFPD, the most friendly & cooperative Police Dep. in the World, but lets have a 'In a perfect World' scenario where we could do any testing we wished, I wouldn't look for Airplane cement testing, i'd be running DNA testing because DNA has come on leaps and bounds. Trace DNA....Touch DNA....mitochondrial DNA and so many other types od DNA and ways in which it can be found and a profile extracted it's almost a certainty that, providing someone at one point put their hand into the glove, their DNA will be there. The only potentially stumbling block you have to kick out the way to stop you falling flat on your face is the one that will say 'Sample too badly degraded due to passage of time'. That's why San Francisco PD pisses me off so much in the complete unwillingness to even send a copy of the DNA they have to a 3rd party who have both the money, test lab at hand and money to cover the costs willing to run tests of their own if SFPD give them the DNA and SFPD give the request the middle finger.

They will sit on their hands, and their evidence, until such a time that the evidence room will catch fire in the corner marked alphabetically 'Case-files: Y - Z.' Chief will then tell you its all one coincidence and we will have no choice to believe Him because He got a police hat on.

Richard

10/26/2015 11:04:13 am

"p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again."
One more thing your Royal Welshness MBE, I remember you saying if Zodiac had entered the park via Maple it would be too risky or likely Zodiac would have bumped into Donald Fouke coming down West Pacific Avenue. However if Zodiac had feigned to go up Maple into the park and reversed then he would avoid Donald Fouke. You stated it would be rather silly of Zodiac to direct the officers toward the park, then enter the area himself. When Donald Fouke found nobody in the vicinity of the park he likely turned around and returned to the area of Jackson and Cherry. Zodiac had meanwhile taken 2 more minutes walking away from the scene, a straight line down Jackson Street. It takes 2 minutes to walk from the Jackson/Cherry intersection to the Jackson/Maple intersection. Likewise it takes 2 minutes from the Jackson/Maple intersection to the Jackson/Spruce intersection. We know Donald Fouke had at least 2 minutes timeline unaccounted for to meet Armond Pelissetti at the top of Cherry. That two minutes we both agree he spent searching West Pacific Avenue before returning. So when Donald Fouke arrives back at the Jackson/Cherry intersection, Zodiac is now 2 minutes further down Jackson at Spruce Street. From this distance Zodiac can see and hear the patrol car returning, but he is now two blocks from the patrol car, so they simply cannot see him.
His movement to turn down Maple was a ruse. I know you believe the "2 cops pulled a goof" statement by Zodiac for reasons we have covered in detail, but now take a look at the last line "I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again.."
He says he disappeared a block and a half away and a block and a half away means he is suggesting not only that he is stopped on Jackson Street, but he entered the park via Spruce Street, because Spruce Street is the nearest exit to the park 1.5 blocks away. He may have originally intended to enter the park via Maple, but after he was stopped and directed the cops to the park he thought better of it. But 2 minutes later he sees the patrol car returning when he is next to Spruce Street and hey presto the coast is clear and he enters the wooded area by Spruce. The dogs are now two blocks to the west, when they eventually slobber along and this is the perfect line of sight to see the cops and fire trucks arriving in Arguello Boulevard. If you believe the above statement in its entirety, you have to believe Zodiac entered the park via Spruce. Here rests the case for the defense, do your worst you despicable at best Mr Chappie, Enter the case for the prosecution.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 03:40:28 pm

Please rush to King Richard VII of The Zodiac Community.I wan't to report a response, no.....several responses. If you go One mile outside the box to the public park, you'll find Alex is correct by far. I'm the Welsh one that is sure of it......

Serious bit coming up Quote: "I remember you saying if Zodiac had entered the park via Maple it would be too risky or likely Zodiac would have bumped into Donald Fouke coming down West Pacific Avenue." This is very true, I did. You continue then Rich by offering a scenario that, I'm sure you will see yourself, is clutching at the proverbial straw and said:

"However if Zodiac had feigned to go up Maple into the park and reversed then he would avoid Donald Fouke.." and then suggested He may have hung around on Spruce waiting for Don to go away etc.
Ok so first, in regard to His going into the Presido at all no matter via which street, and when...

If Zodiac hangs around out of sight until seeing Fouke vacate the Presidio before He drops through and enters it, then you must be assuming a few things:

1) Fouke and Zelms, having been told that a suspect with a gun has ran into the Presidio, never give this most absolutely crucial update on the suspect and His where-about's but decide to not tell anyone else of this.
Ok firstly if this was the case, how and why did the cars, motorcycles and dogs etc all end up on West Pacific? Now I can't show evidence to prove it, but I am overwhelming confident that the cars and bikes, dogs and firetruck searchlights all went there because Don radioed the update on where the suspect was thought to have gone and He or Eric radios this alert to the other cars before as they are approaching Cherry on Jackson and it's because of this, all the other resources and back-up go straight there.

If these cars, bikes, dogs and trucks etc are not there as a result of Fouke's radioing the update on suspect having ran into the Presidio as per the helpful Zodiac's claim, then when did they all rush there and more importantly, why?

Once Fouke gets there it's too late for anyone to get into that area because Fouke will be quickly have cop car after cop car coming down Wst Pfic Ave. behind Him. This simply has to be correct and true Rich other wise you'll have to convince me that once the SFPD get told a suspect is at specific location A that they don't then respond by having this entire area Cordoned off and they surround, in numbers, Location A, and do so as quickly as humanly possible.

He is not getting onto that area after Fouke's arrival, nor is anyone who doesn't flee at the moment Fouke arrives getting out of there after the other unit's begin to arrive. I don't know but I would imagine they had a car up on Inspiration Point overlooking the Whole Presidio area, vehicles on the public road right over the other side mnear to Letterman, Cop Car on Spruce, lights flashing rite at the wall entrance as Cop is checking the area along the treeline etc.

Rich I am absolutely sure of this, He never went into that area and never intended to and, logically, that is why He Himself was happy enough to direct cops there. Never-the-less, He want's you and I to believe He intended to and did end up there because if we don't, we may switch our attention to looking in other possibile lace around the area which He doesn't want at all and so, He overemphasizes the claim of Himself heading for the Park. "As I was walking down the hill to the park...." and "I disappeared into the Park" and "If they had searched the Park Properly' and 'Hey blue Pig, I was in the park" and He isn't pushing an agenda or idea here, it cannot be claimed this man may want anyone to conclude that He is heading for and then got into, THE PARK where He proceeded to elude an army on scene looking for him, is he?

Sirens closing, Cherry Entrance offering.....Z turns right,
Cop car stopping, Offender pointing and directing, off to the Presidio He sends them.
Curiosity killed the Cat, but not yet A Zodiac, and He wanders right into the middle of a huge police response that He himself has directed there.
With the suspect tutting and deploring, wondering 'Will I be found before Morning' as the search continues tree by tree, bush by bush. No Rodent remain still Hidden, but Zodiac's there and were not kidding, except that little detail that He was though.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 08:40:10 pm

See I just thought also, He has to be telling us or strongly hinting at where He went and was after the encounter. Let me run by you and if I am missing something or not reading what Zodiac said correctly then you, or anyone else, please do correct me but as far as I am seeing and understanding it alludes to He directing the cops and they peeled rubber and went around the corner, then He disappeared (into the park) A BLOCK + HALF away never to be seen again.

Well, we assume Rich the encounter took place at the intersection or outside 3712 right next to the Intersection. If Zodiac is standing at any intersection at all and He directs police and watches them as they go around the corner at another Intersection, which of them it was is of no importance for the purpose of this comment.

The reason it matters not which specific intersection it was is that no what, if Zodiac really encounters the police as He stands at One Intersection (Lets use the obvious and relevant Jackson & Maple as the example) then whatever Intersection the police rush off and turn around the corner at, is can't ever be a block and A Half away. It follows logic.....

One Block is measured and determined to be from one Intersection to the next closest. So clear example, Cherry Intersection To that of Maple is one block, Cherry Intersection to Spruce would be Two Blocks. In all cases, all will be whole rounded off number. 18 Intersections will equate to 18 Blocks.
So How can Z be one of these Intersections, direct cops and watch them follow the given directions to another Intersection where they turn, and then tell us that this was one and a half blocks distance away? Zodiac must be in-between a block halfway on the street for His claim to even have a possibility to be accurate surely, or am I missing something here?

Richard

11/1/2015 02:46:40 pm

Because the statement "I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again" has nothing to do with the police's movements, he is describing his actions after the encounter with Fouke and Zelms. But if Zodiac was telling us the truth, it means his encounter never happened at the Jackson and Maple intersection, because this intersection is as you pointed out only one block away from Spruce Street, however if the encounter with police happened at 3712 Jackson Street, then Zodiac's statement of "about one and a half blocks away" makes perfect sense. What Zodiac is saying, is he wasn't stopped at the Jackson and Maple intersection, because in the Bus Bomb Letter he would have just said he disappeared into the park a block away. The fact he tags "about one and half blocks" onto the detail is indicative of a man suggesting he was stopped just shy of the Jackson and Maple intersection, hence the "about" addition.

Alex Lewis

11/1/2015 03:58:33 pm

"Because the statement "I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again" has nothing to do with the police's movements, he is describing his actions after the encounter with Fouke and Zelms."

Corse He is, see what He's saying now and referring to. Had Read it wrong. Jax/Mple - - - J Kahn Park = 1.5 blocks.

Richard

10/26/2015 11:30:45 am

Also Reverend Pastor Welsh Chappie we both know a criminal virtually always takes something away from the crime scene and invariably leaves something behind. It couldn't have been particularly cold that night as the Paul Stine taxicab had three window down and the triangular side window open, pouring doubt on the shooting happening at Washington and Cherry, as nobody heard a shot, Their are four scenarios. Either
1. Every single resident in the area is stone deaf.
2. Paul Stine was not murdered at Washington and Cherry,
3. The Zodiac used a silencer
4. The close contact wound muffled the sound.

The blooded fingerprints on the panel between the driver side door and left rear passenger door, if not fake clues and the fingertip guards were a ruse, should never be there.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 08:01:43 pm

Well even when you are me, there are still the odd thing or circumstance occur that I presently have no answer to explain. Even Divine Entitlement has it's limitations, and Rev Lewis.of possible Welsh ancestry, cannot explain the lack of witness reports stating they did hear a shot fired.

As you say, no Divine Intervention nor Inspiration needed to know at least the limited number of reasons or scenarios that can and would explain the lack of a shot heard.

The two heavyweight No 1 and 2 Contenders as probable explanation for this is:

No.1 - Paul Shot at location other than Washington & Cherry

No.2 Weapon was used complete with silencer.

Me, I'll take door No.1 please.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 10:27:32 pm

I mean at least at Lake Herman Road Owen heard one single round fired that night at the correct time. Nobody mention that another 9 shots were fired and all presumed to be done so without a lengthy interlude between them, we're doing well here to have one shot accounted for as having been audible to James and this even then He forgot about hearing any such shot when police were taking a statement from Him about the two teenagers that were SHOT to death the night before.Takes James 72 Hours to remember that at or close to the time two kids were being gunned down, He may have heard one shot being discharged.

Shooting a victim at night in a vehicle that wouldn't just cause a echoing dull clap, but the extremely bright flash be seen out of even the peripheral vision of a witness fairly close by. But nope, see no evil, hear no evil.

Funny enough I was watching the interview with Bryan few days ago and started once again wondering how Zodiac could have such a lucky yet again and it be down to pure chance, again. Specifically, I focused on Bryans commenting on the Fishing Boat/s that were going by prior to Zodiac's emergence from His Tree Dwelling, which stops for the entire duration of His Exposed self wearing a pretty unusual and rather suspicious looking death hood that some reports say He stood out there for up to 30 Minutes wearing, but even ten to fifteen is extremely longer than it may seem when thinking of it.

However, for a min of 10 mins, max of 30, all activity as far as fishing boats sailing or powering passed the Island suddenly stop and do not start again until just after the hooded man has departed the Island because Bryan says attacker walked off, He and Cecelia were trying to get binds undone, when a fishing boat came into view and He shouting and screaming for them to help and the boats occupants responded by starting the engine, then pulling off down the lake (He assumed in ignorance of He & Cecelia while they actually were speeding away to get Help at the Rangers Station just down the lake.)

But again, 6 minute window at Lake Herman and all the luck in the World see's him strike within this very six minute period. Luck without any question on a massive scale. Berryessa, similar thing happens this time with activity on the lake and fishing boats seem to stop existing for 15 minutes just enough time for Looney to slip in and out unseen. Pacific Heights of luck. This time Zodiac's luck has ran out and there is no safe time zone and escape route because Police have Him where they want him, in the cruiser's headlight beams. GOTCHAAA.....Ohh, sorry Sir, your A White Male aren't you. Please except my apology, and tell me if you don't mind, have you seen any Black Male's, especially looking highly suspicious?

Is this luck and coincidence or something very real and deliberate here helping an offender as He offends?

Richard

11/1/2015 02:49:26 pm

I'll take 1 as well.

Richard

11/3/2015 01:20:38 am

Talking about the Berryessa attack, two things come to mind, what would have happened if Bryan Hartnell's car was black, not many people buy white felt tip pens. In other words did he choose the victims in accompaniment with the colour of their car or was this irrelevant and the writing on the car door a last minute thought. However if this was the case, who carries either felt tip pens in their car or on their person. Another thing, Zodiac just didn't amble up to the couple randomly, they were targeted specifically from the moment they left their vehicle, indicating Zodiac was either waiting in his car for the perfect opportunity or was at least nearby, because he knew it was their car, something he would have been unaware of had he been just waiting by or close to the Berryessa shoreline. He had to connect the car to the couple, therefore had to be viewing them as they left the Karmann Ghia. My question is would Cecelia Shepard be alive today had Bryan Hartnell been driving a black Karmann Ghia or was Zodiac prepared for every eventuality in taking a white felt tip and was his intention to write on the car door crucial to his plan, similar to taking a portion of Paul Stine's shirt or were these acts both afterthoughts on the spur of the moment, although with Berryessa the act of carrying a marker pen probably indicated this was part of his plan on this occasion. His four attacks escalated in 'novelty', the first was followed with nothing, the BRS attack he made a phone call, the Berryessa attack he wrote on the door and made a call and the final act at Presidio was the most gruesome afterthought of all, mailing three (not two) pieces of the shirt with the Presidio October 13th letter, the Bus Bomb Letter and the Melvin Belli Letter.

Alex of Welsh Ancestry

1/23/2016 09:27:09 am

"Talking about the Berryessa attack, two things come to mind, what would have happened if Bryan Hartnell's car was black,"

Did I tell you Rich that Harvey Hines had a copy of the latent prints lifted from Hartnells car and that Destry sent me them? If you want a copy let me know and I'll fwrd them on to you.

Richard

10/26/2015 12:00:57 pm

Bryan Hartnell said "On the front of the four cornered mask at the chest area was a white circle (3 x 3 inches inches in diameter) and a symmetrical cross. There was hair showing by the eyelets of the mask presumed to be dark brown in color". Michael Mageau described Zodiac's hair as light brown, almost blond, the three teenagers described Zodiac as reddish-blond and Donald Fouke described light coloured hair, possibly graying at the rear.
Zodiac stated in the Bus Bomb Letter " I look like the description passed out only when I do my thing, the rest of the time I look entirle different. I shall not tell you what my descise consists of when I kill." You don't have to tell us Zodiac, it is probably a blond light coloured wig and you probably do look entirely different the rest of the time, likely darker brown hair as Bryan Hartnell described, because this is the only time there was no need for a disguise under the disguise, however you hadn't banked on Bryan Harnell spotting the hair by the eyelets of the hood. So if Bryan Hartnell was correct and he seems the most reliable witness of all, then the blondish wig he wore was simply not him, this may suggest that neither was the crew cut and the Presidio Heights sketch needs a makeover..

Alex Lewis

10/29/2015 04:42:00 am

"Bryan Hartnell said "On the front of the four cornered mask at the chest area was a white circle (3 x 3 inches inches in diameter) and a symmetrical cross. There was hair showing by the eyelets of the mask presumed to be dark brown in color"

He's A good witness Hartnell, He remebers a lot of detail and does so consistent kinda like Don and you can, if you wished, make this your argument to show witnesses remember things far far bettwe in terms of ccuracy when they are not in shear fear. Don wasn't at all in fight or flight mode terrified, and Hartnell said that "He walked up and said Hold on eerybody, nothing to get worried about, I just your money and car keys to get to mexico and if nobody does anything stupid, nobody will get hurt." And after Z had made that comment, Bryan said "And.....I believed Him."

Anyway we're lucky that Bryan is so specific in the '3 x 3 inch square circle....the cross hairs' when He continues was "Made with care or with some kind of machine, it was proportional and wasn't just scrawled on with white paint" because this kinda attention to detail helps us when people like Dennis Kaufman come along.

See I would think if your going to claim discover of evidence in form of a odd and unusual maskeed outfit to 'prove' your Daddy Jack was Zodiac then, at least have a good idea what that hooded costume looked like because when He shows up on camera going 'TA-DAAAAAAA' holding up a hood with a gigantic red cross hairs covering the entire front chect portion that's clearly been done with marker or lipstick it's 'Another looney-tune, dismissed'

It's like Myself on Discovery Channel to tell the I have found the most sought after relic in in Religious History, for yes, I have discovered the Hebrew Bibles 'Arch of the Covenant ....' then produce a Tea-Pot.

Richard

10/28/2015 04:56:52 am

Alex what is your take on Zodiac's saying "there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart"

Alex Lewis

10/29/2015 04:25:32 am

Umm, bit more specific maybe Rich? In relation to what?

I mean it looks like Rich by such a generalisation I should reply to your question of What's your take on the two groups of parking?' with an answer of: "It's Outrageous! Should only ever be one group of vehicles, never two!"
I don't think that's quite what your question is asking though is it? :-)
Do you mean in relation to the idea or theory that it does not say 2 groups of parking but actually 2 groups of barking and is in reference to the police dogs?

Alex Lewis

10/29/2015 05:33:26 am

I'll assume, for the moment, you are asking me my opinion on the 'Parking vs Barking' argument.

Firstly, and there;s no way to ever know for sure, but I'd say looking at the way the first letter in the word is formed, it's deliberately done by Him because this type of personality would find this kinda thing highly amusing to Himself..."It look like the letter P I tell you..." one stresses before another replies "Rubbish Man!Clearly this word is Barking." "You are 'Barking mad if you believe that Sir...." "OUTSIDE! **Jacket comes off** Zodiac is sitting back giggling to Himself in merry amusement at this point.

My opinion Rich? Probably is B as in two groups of dogs barking. The 2 groups of B/Parking comment is one part of a bigger sentence, and when you read the sentence as a whole it becomes overwhelmingly likely He's talking of the dogs, making the word Barking. "The dogs never came within 2 Blocks of me and they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of.....Barking"

Richard

10/29/2015 03:16:41 pm

Zodiac stated this on the Bus Bomb Letter, the cops would have encircled the park. My guess one main group were on Arguello Boulevard and one group were congregated on Presidio Boulevard, leading off WPA. These are on the west and eastern areas of the park, exactly opposite each other. They would have swept the park entering from both sides. If Zodiac was where I think he was he would have a line of sight 150 feet from Arguello Boulevard, which is what he said in the Bus Bomb Letter and in this elevated position in the park could get a visual on Presidio Boulevard. Hence the statement 'two groups parking'. This is what I was referring to.

Richard

10/29/2015 03:23:55 pm

These are the two groups I think the Zodiac mentioned about 10 minutes apart, although the west portion of Arguello Boulevard and east portion of Presidio Boulevard are about 5-6 minutes apart by car, but Zodiac was estimating.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 08:38:44 am

Yes Zodiac does mention the two groups and other such evidence of His presence there. He does this because, as we know, He declared on the first post Stine murder letter that police could have caught Him if they had searched the park properly and The Chief of Homicide Inspectors Martin Lee responded to that with comments published in the Chronicle in which Martin Lee declares that Zodiac is a liar and was not there in or near that park citing the lack of Z mentioning things such as the police dogs that were there, or His failure to mention the fire trucks with search lights etc and this, Lee implied, He did not mention because He didn't know these details because He wasn't in the park. Zodiac then replies that Ohh yes I He was, and that He did see the dogs and can tell the Chief that there were two specific groups of the dogs to prove He did see them.

Richard

11/1/2015 03:21:54 pm

"He did not mention because He didn't know these details because He wasn't in the park".
Zodiac didn't mention a lot of things that night, but not mentioning something is not proof it didn't happen. Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms, along with the rest of the SFPD never mentioned that an encounter happened with a white male on Jackson Street that night until Zodiac brought the subject up, and we now know an encounter did happen. Even the trusted police don't mention things, so why should Zodiac. His Bus Bomb Letter was a rebuttal of Martin Lee and hence why he gave the extra details as proof, just as he did when mentioning "2 cops pulled a goof." Zodiac's reply can not necessarily be taken as just copying the Martin Lee Chronicle article and adding the facts later anymore than he is giving the additional information as proof.

Alex The Great of Wales

11/1/2015 05:04:49 pm

"Zodiac didn't mention a lot of things that night, but not mentioning something is not proof it didn't happen. Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms, along with the rest of the SFPD never mentioned that an encounter happened with a white male on Jackson Street that night until Zodiac brought the subject up, and we now know an encounter did happen."

Wasn't my opinion Rich, it was Mr Lee's, Chief of the Inspector peoples. Z initially wrote they could have caught Him, all they need to have done was carry out a search properly which seems to enraged Lee's anger at this insult throwing, reputation crushing author who no apology for His favourite hobby needling the pigs so Chief Lee speeds to the Chronicle starting the conversation with Avery "RIGHT.....PRINT THIS! ZODIAC : LIAR & POSSIBLE LATENT HOMOSEXUAL. CHIEF LEE SAYS!

This then causes Zodiac to mutter to himself: "Oh, so it's like that is it Pig Chief, if we are getting personal here then watch this City CHIEF-MEANIE! ...PS - 2 COPS PULLED A GOOF.....WHICH MUST BE PRINTED IN THE CHRONICLE! Your turn, Pig-Cop!

Alex Lewis

10/29/2015 09:16:33 am

I have a question of my own also Rich, well, an interest in getting your POV on an incident. It's off topic to this thread but thankfully I happen to know that this will be ok here at this site because Tyranny under a Dictatorship isn't found nor of interest to, you and your site. Anyway...

Joe Stine! Paul's Brother. As we know in the immediate aftermath of the murder of His brother Paul, Joe was interviewed on camera and challenged Zodiac and said some not to verry nice things of the nameless one. He went on camera and told Zodiac that He offers Himself as a potential victim and went on to tell Zodiac that He rides His bike to work and back and where it was He worked, time He travels to and from work, and declared 'I am not armed and don't need to be, so come try and get me..."

Zodiac, probably suspecting a set up with police involvement here, never did take Joe up on His offer.
However, Carol, Paul and Joe's sister, did have happen to Her exactly what Kathy Johns said Her abductor had done to get Her to stop.
Carol was on I think it was Toms site fairly recently and mentioned this incident that happened on a lonely stretch of road late one night as she's returning home from a visit to Her mothers.

Carol recalled that on this specific road she was travelling and no other vehicles othert than the odd truck or delivery van etc were there, in other words a fairly deserted road. She noticed in the distance behind her a set of headlight and glanced in the rear view mirror every 15/20 seconds or so and noticed these headlights closing fairly fast untill the car was right behind here. At this point she noticed that this car began flashing it's lights and began honking the horn. Carol just tried to ignore it and with this second car getting no response pulled out and up alongside Carol's car and honked. Carol glanced over and saw A White Male with Horn Rimmed Glasses mouthing something and pointing at her Tyre. Carol then stated that to this day she not what made Her do what she did next, but it just came as if automatic. She looked directly at the other vehicles driver, stuck her tonge out at him, and slammed Her foot to the floor and sped way from Him.
Carol later stated that she thinks her response was out of sheer fear because she stated "I always had this feeling my Brothers killer would one day come after me and I can't explain why. The second I saw the headlights flashing & heard the horn honking, I knew instinctively who this was!"

So Rich, what you think, Zodiac or not? I am quite settled on my belief that it was Zodiac and I think I know why He would have gone after Carol too. Joe called Zodiac out in sheer anger that Zodiac had taken one of His siblings from He and His family, so now Joe has called him out and insulted Him,. He will take away another of Joe's siblings!

Richard

11/1/2015 03:01:33 pm

If the honest Welsh Chappie had told me this story, I would bow down to the court and profess my allegiance, however I don't know Carol Stine personally and without meeting her and evaluating her as a person I simply could not say one way or another on her claim. It simply remains a story that cannot be substantiated, but if I were pushed on the matter I would say it was highly unlikely it was Zodiac. He had many opportunities to revisit previous crimes and make his mark and I cannot believe after being challenged by Joe Stine, he would seek retribution by attacking his sister. It is not impossible of course, but without more than somebodies say so, I have to lean to a not guilty verdict on Zodiac for this one.

Robert Hardy

11/21/2018 08:29:04 am

If you just use logic and look at this, you would see that IF Zodiac had been stopped by Don Fouke, then why would he later gloat about this, knowing that Fouke (and possibly Eric Zelms) would now build up a good identikit artists' impression of Z's face. Better to say nothing and not supply the cops with any leads. I think Zodiac simply got into the car parked up there in a leafy cul-de-sac and drove home. Why on earth did he shoot Paul Stine? Well, it wasn't planned, and Stine's academic connections should speak volumes really.

scout

2/28/2020 11:45:10 am

serious all the comments are funny, the mind blow out and this people get their own 925, ZODIAC laugh about the 925 Q or was a military or CIA or special forces....people reason why never get ZODIAC! but I walking to the FBI they let him go, ZODIAC is protected by the GOVERNMENT........ ZODIAC IS A HERO IN NOVEMBER 22, 1969 TEXAS! JUNE 6, 1968! BRAVO! stupid people!

Alex

2/29/2020 05:40:36 pm

Rich can u tell me Plz what that person just said, prefer ably in legible English???

9/5/2024 06:28:29 am

Police pulled a goof sounds about right. I believe that dispatchers message was heard wrong by police. Something like " all black suspect " might be his attire was wearing all black. Just trickled down the line and zodiac was rubbing it in their face. Just my opinion

John Sabo

12/24/2024 04:05:39 am

Or the racist times. lol.

John Sabo

12/24/2024 04:01:52 am

“Foukeup” comments on this case are dead on correct. Too many errors to even count and this Cops and Jerusdictions rules they used back then and still. “Not sharing, we wanna catch him” so juvenile wanna vomit. Still be like that if for Computers and COTIS. If not Arthur L Allen which his DNA don’t match yet that new Netflix series makes it sound like he was all the killing places. Makes them look even dumber if still can’t find enough in him? But bet it was Cop like sure as hell 8 of the last 10 longest unsolved cases ended up being from 2000-2020. Can only imagine how many were never caught. NEVER look at other cops till maybe the last decade. Still know damn well dont. But for this to be unsolved. Like Biggie and PAC? lol. Both Police or off-duty police security work. If that don’t show ya don’t wanna find killer? What else does. ONLY cause this gained so much attention which we all know SF PD never expected. It was a Cop. And yes those 2 Police officers are bozos and liars. Zodiac Movie makes it sound like Polce too heat back then. lol. No they didn’t

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