THREE VEHICLES IN THE TURNOUT?

2/10/2018

The assailant at Blue Rock Springs Park walked up to the brown Corvair and immediately opened fire. The perpetrator at Lake Berryessa, not wanting to open fire at 6:15 pm with potential eyewitnesses in the area, secured both victims before stabbing them. In his final confirmed act at Presidio Heights, the killer callously executed Paul Stine with one shot to the head However, the first confirmed crime at Lake Herman Road was altogether different. If the responsible was embarking on a life as a serial killer, beginning with Lake Herman Road, why didn't he simply employ the method he used in his second attack, where all nine bullets struck their target? Whether he knew that people were in the area that night, or was just lucky in finding a slender timeline between eyewitnesses, may never be known - but if we assume this was the beginning of his quest for immortality as the Zodiac Killer, one would assume he would take less risks.

Firstly, we have to question why he supposedly parked alongside the right of the Rambler, furthest from the road. Wouldn't a more calculated and foolproof strategy have been to park to the rear of the Rambler, effectively boxing the couple into the turnout. Secondly, the killer fired off 10 shots that night, with only 6 striking their target. It has been speculated that the killer fired off an array of warning shots, two that struck the vehicle, and possibly one or two into the air - but why? The purpose of the 'exercise' (as it was at Blue Rock Springs Park), was to murder the couple. The assailant could simply have shot both victims through the passenger side window, or shot them the instant the passenger door opened.

Yes, this was an isolated road, but with residences within earshot and limited escape routes, the killer wasted valuable time by firing off warning shots before the murders. Investigators believed that the couple were effectively forced out of the vehicle before being shot - but for what purpose?. According to most observers, the Zodiac Killer's actions were not that of a sadist - his murders being secondary to his primary goal - that of publicity from the crimes he committed and his incessant contact with the newspapers. One could argue, that if the killer ushered David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen from the Rambler, he did so for a reason. A sexual motive and robbery were soon ruled out, but this may not necessarily have been the case.

One of the first responding officers on December 20th 1968 was Russell Butterbach. He stated in the 2007 Zodiac documentary "that's where he found out about the ring (David Faraday's class ring). I noticed he had it like this (gesturing that David Faraday was holding it between his finger and thumb), holding it like somebody was trying to take it from him".

Then we have the final eyewitness, before the victims were spotted lying on the turnout floor by Stella Medeiros. James Owen passed the turnout on his way to Humble Oil in Benicia, and stated in the police report that "he definitely saw two cars, a station wagon and another vehicle, parked approximately three or four feet to the right of the station wagon. He did not see anyone in the cars or around them". Several minutes later both victims were discovered dead in the turnout.
James Owen never mentioned the Rambler door being open. So, if the killer had closed the Rambler door and forced the couple out of sight, behind the Rambler, as James Owen passed, why did somebody reopen the passenger door after shooting both David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, later to be observed by investigators at the crime scene (courtesy of Ray Grant). Was the perpetrator looking for valuables, drugs or money - and had David Faraday earlier begun the process of loosening his class ring to offer to the assailant. An action that angered the perpetrator, resulting in the close quarter execution to the left side of his head.

The killer could have parked to the rear of the Rambler, illuminating it using his headlights, and in the process, boxing it into the turnout. Then, without the need for a pencil flashlight strapped to his gun, that he claimed in the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter, he could have executed the couple within their vehicle as he did at Blue Rock Springs Park. The loose class ring on the hand of David Faraday, the passenger door being open, and the need to usher the couple out of the Rambler by force, using several warning shots, could indicate that the individual or individuals wanted the couple out of the vehicle for a reason. Either to confront them, or rob them.

In a previous article we explored the idea of a connection between the white Chevrolet Impala, the drugs bust at The Cottage and the arrival of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen shortly thereafter. Could the killer have opened the Rambler passenger door looking for the recently purchased drugs in a case of mistaken identity, and connected with the Chevrolet Impala. See here.

Many eyewitnesses gave their accounts of that night, apart from the occupant/s of the Chevrolet Impala and the 'pursuer/s' of William Crow (assuming they were separate). I wonder why? But there was another rarely mentioned vehicle on Lake Herman Road that night, which passed the turnout only 3 1/2 minutes before James Owen heard a shot pierce the night. James Owen in his statement on the 24th December 1968 stated "just before he approached the scene a vehicle passed him in the opposite direction towards Vallejo. This occurred near the Borges Ranch". The Borges Ranch is 1.5 miles from the turnout, or about 3 minutes journey time traveling at 30 mph. Had this vehicle been in the turnout prior to James Owen passing it - indicating that two vehicles were in the turnout, as well as the Rambler? But when things turned sour, the occupant/s of this vehicle decided to leave and head towards Vallejo. Or was this just an innocent motorist, unaware of the unfolding events that night. Either way, the occupant/s of this vehicle never came forward to report seeing the Rambler or another vehicle alongside it in the turnout, and thereby add validity to the sighting of James Owen. Did they fear being implicated - or more importantly, did they know the killer?

What may have begun as a 'confrontation' that descended into murder, may ultimately have morphed into something completely different approximately six and a half months later. The killer may not have created the Zodiac, he may have evolved into him, 'mesmerized' by the newspaper coverage he received after the Lake Herman Road double murder..

Joku

2/11/2018 06:43:40 am

As for the killer not parking at the rear end of Faraday's car and boxing it in, it might simply be a matter of caution. There were quite a few cars passing by after all, and a vehicle parked in this way would have raised much more attention than one parked on the side. And since the spot is rather sudden when coming from the direction of Vallejo, any car coming on the turnout-side lane would have needed to slow down to pass the scene safely. Thirdly, one could always fear that the victim would try to escape, and at worst reverse straight into the side of the assailant's vehicle. So, even if it a bit harder to get out from parking on the side, it would be the safer option for the killer in this environment. At Blue Rock Springs boxing in Ferrin's car was less risky due to the space of the parking lot.

Richard

2/11/2018 10:39:30 am

He may have wanted his vehicle furthest from the roadside edge to avoid identification, as it proved with James Owen, who couldn't describe the vehicle alongside the Rambler. So it worked from that standpoint. What I cannot understand Joku, is why he wants to usher them out the vehicle, when it's unnecessary. Sharon (below) stated it's because Zodiac referenced hunting people in his letter. But he could have done this in the parking lot at Blue Rock Springs, and besides he didn't 'hunt' anybody at Berryessa or Presidio Heights. He, in cowardly fashion, executed Paul Stine, and tying up the couple at Berryessa under gunpoint is hardly hunting.
My point being, if he didn't want to draw attention to himself, so parked to the right of the Rambler, he sort of negated this by firing off warning shots into the vehicle, before ushering them out the vehicle and blasting off another 6 shots in pitch darkness, with a small pencil flashlight - if he had one. He is wasting time, for a man who is killing for publicity. He could simply have exited the driver side of his vehicle and headed straight to the passenger side of the Rambler firing into the vehicle. He could head east to the bottom part of Benicia, down the Reservoir Road, or towards Vallejo. Two of which were a few miles. He had limited exit routes, so in and out should have been the order of the day. This, I would call risky. At Lake Berryess, the Knoxville Road too, presented limited escape routes, and I doubt, but don't know, that if the couple had refused to be tied up, Zodiac would have risked firing his weapon. The fact he did more than was necessary at LHR, suggests either inexperience, or something that wasn't pre-planned. However, later developed into what was to become the Zodiac Killer. I may, however, be totally wrong Joku.

John

2/11/2018 09:10:58 am

Regarding the open door, is it possible that there was some sort of scuffle and the Zodiac left some fingerprints behind? After executing the couple, he went back and wiped down the door, leaving it open, either on purpose or was spooked by a car coming and left it open during his rushed retreat?

Richard

2/11/2018 10:12:41 am

He had no reason to touch the door on the inside, only the outside, presuming he shut it as Owen approached. The problem John, is from my point of view, this crime could have unfolded multiple ways.The more you look, the more you find. The car Owen saw just before he arrived at the turnout, nobody could say whether it was involved or not, because the vehicle's owner never came forward. Nobody can say they know this vehicle wasn't involved, and without knowing any scenario is possible. The same goes for the questionable timeline. I am sure the Rambler picked up many prints prior to the murder, but ruling in or out the relevant fingerprints on a vehicle is extremely difficult. The same with the Stine taxicab, unless it's a fingerprint created by a bloodstained hand..

sharon

2/11/2018 09:32:18 am

I am the friend of Betty Lou and David. I talked to them every day, they were at my house that night. David was going to ask Betty Lou to go steady that night, it was not their first date .All of the lovers lane places in that area, like blue rock springs were always getting radded by the police. David told me he wanted to go somewhere the police would not bother them .Because he was going to give Betty Lou his ring, that is why his ring was in his hand. There was never any drugs, they did not do that, that was the mistake the police made from the very beginning ,the were always thinking drugs had to be involved, those were the times 1968. In one of his letters Z says he likes to hunt people, the most dangers game of all. That is why he shot warning shots, he wanted them to run. And just maybe when he fired warning shots they ducked down in the car and when someone drove by they didn't see anyone in the car.

Richard

2/11/2018 09:50:56 am

Hi Sharon, no I wasn't implying that either did drugs, just exploring the idea this double murder wasn't necessarily a case of a serial killer just deciding to randomly go hunting that night. His crimes gathered pace as he went along, from 6 1/2 months to almost 3 months to 2 weeks, and something he 'grew' into. I was just considering whether the LHR crimes triggered the development of the killer, rather than him deciding in advance to become one.
With a white Chevrolet Impala never tracked down, sitting in the turnout that night and a drugs raid at The Cottage just before the murders, it was something worth looking at.
Was it ever confirmed that they went to the pre-Christmas concert at Hogan High that evening and left at 10.00 pm, because in a magazine article the January after the murders, it stated:
#1 'During his many hours of investigation (Les Lunblad), the graying veteran detective sergeant learned the terrible murders on Lake Herman were the tragic end of a first date for the young couple. They had attended a pre-Christmas concert and chorale at Vallejo's Hogan High School, where pretty Betty Lou had been a student. The couple had left the school auditorium at 10.00 pm, bidding goodnight to their school chums.'
#2 'At the concert, classmates of Betty Lou noticed the couple sitting side by side in the gymnasium bleachers (retractable seats), holding hands. Nobody remembers seeing them after they left the concert.'

I ask this, because I recall you stating you believed or thought they may have gone to Blue Rock Springs.

Drew

2/12/2018 11:15:44 am

Hi Sharon and Richard, this seems like a crossroads for learning the whereabouts of David and Betty-Lou that night - Sharon remembers having them over that night versus the newspaper interviewing witnesses at the dance. Is it possible that the couple attended both events after leaving the Jensen house at 8:30? Sharon's first, then the dance, then Lake Herman Road (instead of Blue Rock Springs or San Francisco, which they apparently had previously considered). Sharon do you think it is possible that your visit ended early enough that evening that they still could have attended the dance? If they left the visit by 9:15 it would seem possible. Thanks so much for sharing!

Richard, great article! I must be nuts because I thought I had read that Betty-Lou had thirty-eight dollars on her person, but I can't find seem to find the source of that claim. Maybe it was Ray Grant. I went through the police reports and couldn't find mention of her purse. It says David had less than a dollar on him but I think that is all that was reported about money.

Richard

2/12/2018 11:53:06 am

The police report states David had 85 cents (three quarters and a dime). When David Faraday left his house that evening at 7.30 pm, his mother gave him 1 dollar 55 cents. At the hospital later, it was discovered David Faraday had 85 cents remaining. He had therefore spent 70 cents.1968/69 advertisements shows Binaca breath drops (found on his person) came in varying sizes, with the price in general varying from 60 cents to 1 dollar. This is something he may have purchased before meeting Betty for her date. David was a considerate and conscientious young man dating a young girl. Buying a breath freshener is very likely before your date. I have no idea the money on Betty Lou Jensen. If the couple did attend Hogan High that night and left around 10.00 pm, the journey time to the turnout is 12-15 minutes, just in time to be spotted by Helen Axe at 10.15 pm, if you believe her eyewitness recollection to be accurate, which is less than certain.

Richard

2/12/2018 12:12:22 pm

If these Binaca breath drops (whether tablets or liquid), had they been bought at a local store by Faraday after he left his house that night at 7.30 pm, then by visiting local stores, the investigators could have pinned down if or what time he purchased them. If after 9.00 pm, that could have been useful for the timeline. Ray Grant toyed with the idea David Faraday, because he was a considerate young man, and was borrowing the Rambler, may have put some petrol in the vehicle. The Mr Ed's claim has not been proven.

Drew

2/12/2018 12:41:44 pm

Hi, I have no point to make but between Sharon's comment that David asked her opinion on whether Betty-Lou would accept his ring, his noted stance against marijuana, and the breath mints purchase make me believe David was a really sweet guy. A friend of his commented on Tom's board about how nice he was as well. This was an absolute tragedy.

I am very willing to accept that I did not read about Betty-Lou having money in her purse from a reliable source, but it seems a very curious omission in the reports considering they were following a drugs angle to the point where they were yelling at innocent teenagers about it. In an interview between Sharon and Tom Voigt police were described as quite aggressive as they sorted through items in Betty-Lou's purse while interrogating her friends.

There is no mention of the purse at the scene as far as I can tell but it would seem very unusual for her to not have taken it on her date that night. If it was in the backseat with her coat I'm not surprised the killer left it in place, but if Zodiac did go through her purse and wallet and left a print behind, can you imagine that being kept a secret? Seems very doubtful to me. Anyway, I will let you know if I ever find the source of the claim.

Richard

2/12/2018 04:05:34 pm

I was thinking about the fur coat on the rear seats Drew, and the outside temperature that night Drew. I doubt the windows were rolled down by the couple, because Betty Lou removed her jacket and the temperature that night was 22 F or -5.5 Celsius- extremely cold. I presume the only reason to remove your coat is for intimacy- after all they were a young couple on a date. My point being- had they been parked up for any length of time prior to the Peggy and Homer Your passing the turnout, surely the warm breath and 'heightened' passion would have fogged or steamed up the windows, making it difficult to observe the occupants. Peggy stated "As they were driving west on Lake Herman Road at the turn off to the Benicia Water Pumping Station, she observed a Rambler station wagon parked with front end heading east, there were two Caucasians in the front seat, male and female, when the lights from the car came upon the station wagon, the male sat up in the seat. Mrs Your said it was a cold night and she noticed no frost on the station wagon."
There may not have been frost, but what about internal fogging. Could this suggest they may not have been parked in the turnout when Helen Axe passed at 10.15 pm, because the Rambler would have fogged up in the 40-45 minutes duration before the Your's arrived shortly before 11.00 pm. But had they only been parked literally minutes before the Your's arrived, the Rambler wouldn't have had time to fog on the inside, thus allowing the details and description of the couple given by the Your's above. Not being an expert on vehicles Drew, maybe you could correct me.

Drew

2/12/2018 05:02:02 pm

I think we are definitely in a high potential make-out situation here, but there could be an alternate explanation for interior fog not being noticed regardless of the timing of the sightings. Smoking.

Without knowing whether there was a pack of cigarettes in the car or in Betty-Lou's purse we can't know, but if she wanted to smoke (in her boyfriend's father's car?) rather than face the cold, then she may have rolled down the window for a few minutes. I believe it was Ricky Burton who said she was a smoker and it bothered him but I don't know of anyone else who mentioned her smoking. In this kind of location there may have been too many cigarette butts on the ground to know whether any were significant to the killer or victims. I guess that could also be an alternate explanation for the breathe mints.

Alex Lewis

6/3/2018 05:58:00 pm

Zodiac did not, not once even, say or mention 'The Most Dangerous Game' at all. This is one of many many misconceptions in relation to The Zodiac Killer and/or case thanks to one man. . . Robert Graysmith.

What Z actually said was: 'Man is the most dangerous animal of all.' and R.G twists this to become Z referring to the book ' Most Dangerous Game' as it was in his interest to do this to bolster Arthur Allen as Z.

It's similar to Voigt who makes a big thing of 'GYKE' appearing in a line of Z code. It certainly does appear in one of the three sections of cipher making up the 408 yes, but it is in the cold lightf day, completely irrelevant because Richard never ever, not one time, signed himself as Yours Truly, GYKE because there's no Y in Gaikowski! In the vast amount of letters he wrote that we know about, He did shorten his name to sign off in letters yes... .Always as 'GAIk', without excpexcep!

Rubislaw 32 link

2/11/2018 12:45:26 pm

Fascinating to read your intimate and informative comments,Sharon.

In examining the individual case of Betty Lou and David,it always strikes me,what decent and wholesomely good.....and indeed innocent a couple,that they were.

Richard's site is of great value,apart from other attributes,because he offers up opportunities to look at the crimes of the Zodiac,from different hypothetical perspectives.

In order.perhaps,that we might gain a greater understanding,and get to the bottom of some of the more mysterious aspects,of the cases.

Most of us,his regular readers,give some consideration to those crimes every day.

Very honoured to hear from you,Sharon.

I certainly believe that Betty Lou and David's perpetrator is still out there,and will be held to account for their murders.

Richard

2/12/2018 12:00:46 pm

Some of my articles may be nonsense Rubislaw, but you always have to keep an open mind on these crimes. Most of our perceptions are usually formulated from the original investigators and early hypotheses, including Graysmith. Sometimes it's worth starting afresh and never taking what we read for granted. The ideas presented here are not necessarily what I believe, but worth exploring nevertheless.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/12/2018 03:49:09 pm

Completely go along with your ideas and methods,Richard.

For how often would there be a debate worth having,without this approach [?].

As I have seen,that can sometimes happen,someone jumps into a collection of comments,not fully realising the purpose of a general discussion....which is to hopefully produce extra knowledge,worth ''banking'' [?].

''Talking heads'' is often worth more,than thinking alone.

And ''thank you'',for this,by the way [!].

Richard

2/12/2018 04:18:10 pm

I counted up the articles I'd written the other day-354. The reason I mention this Rubislaw, is that you can only keep going to the well for so long, without running over tired old ground and boring the reader. It's very difficult to stay fresh, and there is always the danger of tipping over the edge into conspiracy or fantasy to keep the stories rolling out. There will come a time my friend when fresh ideas are not there anymore. I'd be surprised if this site remains productive after this year. Some may be grateful when that day comes, but I do appreciate all the feedback and contributions that visitors give. Without the likes of you, Drew, Shawn, Gregory and everybody else, I'd probably pack in tomorrow. Thanks, Richard.

Drew

2/12/2018 04:43:55 pm

Well, we certainly appreciate all your efforts and insights Richard. The ideas you explore are what keep the case interesting and perhaps more importantly help us interpret the information we do have. You have been the best resource for my brother and I by far. We are documentary filmmakers and we would be all over the place on the subject of Zodiac without this site. Cheers

Rubislaw 32 link

2/12/2018 04:54:08 pm

I can certainly see your point,there,Richard.

The site is down to you,and your personal aspirations may be broader based.

But your articles and the ''exceptional'' graphics are surely worth keeping for reference and archive purposes [?].Like Mr.Cole,put the material into print [?].

On a personal level,the case still enthuses me,because I largely buy into Zodiac post 1974,believe that he is still alive....and remain confident that he can still be apprehended.

In the last couple of days,I have told two prominent L.E. organizations,that I now ''know'' that the 1988 New Canaan Letter,was addressed to George Webster,father of victim,Joan.

Of course,I could be wrong,but I wouldn't have told them,without the confidence,born out of hard work.

And,naturally,this puts a ''new spin'' on a number of aspects to Zodiac's whereabouts,after his Bay Area reign of terror.

So,I suppose a greater delve into ''unconfirmed'' correspondences,and future possible victims,might be worth considering,Richard [?].

But you will know yourself....and regular readers will settle for what you are prepared to offer.

The pleasure is ''ours'' .

2/12/2018 05:32:00 pm

Rubislaw - Richard's site is of great value - you are right.

Richard - You are wrong - boring the reader is never going to happen - even when you do repeat it is good. You have a lot of new people to teach. Teaching is a very important job! And, you are very good at it. You taught me more about this murder mystery and zodiac stuff than anybody else. It is very interesting!

2/13/2018 05:18:23 pm

The Church of Satan is a religious organization dedicated to Satanism as codified in The Satanic Bible. The Church of Satan was established at the Black House in San Francisco, California, on Walpurgisnacht, April 30, 1966, by Anton Szandor LaVey, who was the church's High Priest until his death in 1997. Wikipedia (Bates murder comes exactly six months later). This is just a coincidence of course. Is there a members list for this time period that can be cross checked?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/14/2018 02:08:47 am

I would think it unlikely that there is a list available,BB,but stand to be corrected.

It appears likely that Zodiac was aware of this Church,and ''bought into' it as a tool of red herring.

The Dragon Card ,for instance,where ''riding the dragon'' is an analogy for the son of Satan attempting to wrestle the power from his father.

But really,I think Zodiac was the ''Eclectic Warrior''.....stealing ideas and beliefs,from ''all over''.

To keep everyone,forever ''guessing''.

(A) Lex Lewis link

6/3/2018 06:14:49 pm

BB:

"The Church of Satan is a religious organization dedicated to Satanism"

See, You can't teach that, its a gift! You either have it, or you don't.

Ps: Sorry, couldn't help myself. I am just joking & not meaning to insult lest Offence be taken.

Judith N Chapman

2/13/2018 09:14:03 pm

Not a drug deal gone bad. Much more Shakespearean. He's killing couples. It is emotional. "Tit Willow" by Judith Chapman available on Amazon

Rubislaw 32 link

2/14/2018 01:47:46 am

I agree Judith.....the root of the problem,was ''emotional'' for Zodiac.

Personally,I believe that it all started to go wrong for him,in his mid to late teens,when the true nature of his biological birth circumstances,were made apparent.

Not dissimilar to Ted Bundy.

Both very bright....then the entirely unacceptable reality that,in their own minds,they weren't so ''smart''.

A ''dismantling'' effect,to say the least [?].

Alex Lewis

6/3/2018 06:28:06 pm

Anyway Rich it's been many months mate now since I last tried using or logging in on Weebly so have you still got me granted as 3rd party access to write my Articles.? No issue or problem if I no longer do have that ability mate, I ask due to wishing to write an article if at all possible.
Cheers Rich, speak soon:

Alex.

Posaible-Welsh-Ancestry.

WelshChappie/ Alex Lewis

7/8/2018 12:26:02 pm

Cheers Rich, appreciate the reply to this question via email.

I have slowed in my posting contributions here and on all other Z themed sites in the past year or so & I've decided recently that I am, for the foreseeable future anyway, going to stop & leave the amateur community altogether with this my final post.

I am aware Vallejo PD are retesting DNA and even talks of using Ancestry.com are in place so I shall sit on the sidelines so to speak and await that outcome.

I can honestly say I would hope and look forward to my own opinion being proven wrong regarding Lawrence Kane if it meant the Zodiac' was identified and the victims get long overdue justice and the families thereof get to have answers and start to heal.

To you Rich, it's been an absolute pleasure my friend and I thank you for allowing g me my own space to write on this your excellent Z themed site. I hope I have, in some small way, given a show of my appreciation for you having done this by my choosing to release several exclusive documents here on your site.

Drew, Sandy, and the rest of you. . .

Take care, gd luck and see you when the results come in & hopefully, Zodiac is finally identified.

Richard

7/8/2018 01:43:35 pm

That is really sad news Welsh Chappie- we've had some great conversations down the years and almost single-handedly kept the comments section running at times. I do understand people who eventually need to separate themselves from the Zodiac scene, as will probably be the case with me soon. There is only so much to be said.
I have thoroughly enjoyed our internet friendship and your valuable contributions, particularly with Presidio Heights and the valuable documents you acquired from the FBI. Definitely the closest one could come to possibly identifying the Zodiac Killer. Your contributions have and will be missed, but I must thank you for your support of this site for many years. Hopefully you'll drop by when and if the killer is identified for one last hurrah. You've got my email, so don't be a complete stranger- pop in and say hello once in a while, even if I have too left the Zodiac scene. Take care your Royal Welsh Chappie.

Alex Lewis

7/8/2018 04:12:14 pm

Thank you Rich, I agree & feel the same about our conversations, theorising & debates. I will drop by from time to time doubt. And The Presidio event is still, for me anyway, where the clues to the solving of thiels case lay.

The only person/s I wish I could have spoken to who have not involved themselves at any level since they were unwitting bit part players on Zodiac's game as He shows up literally outside their house is Lindsey and/or Rebecca Robins. I'm sure they are able to add something significant and details about the event itself and also the person who caused it, one who wears the crew cut And engineering boots.

As it is, we are at the mercy of Officer Tweedle Dee & Officer Tweedle Dumb.

Don doesn't need to have Armond contradict Him, He does a good enough job of this himself but Armond decides to add his own two pennies worth and state Don is A liar when Don claims:

"We didn't stop the man, We never talked to him. . . " Armond rebuffs that BB you stating that yes, Donald did stop and talk to him because "He told me that he saw a man walking by and that he asked that person have u seen anybody go by? The person said "No."

This time, anyway. Armond said years prior to this interview that Don said that the person said, when asked has been seen anybody go by that "Yes, somebody just ran into the presidio!"

Take you pick, there's a dozen or so more of these from rlthesd two.

Rebecca, Lindsey, if you do ever read this. . . Please give us five minutes of your time, that's all I personally would ask.

"That scratch and what he told me, do not match.

7/11/2018 05:28:29 pm

The Black House in San Francisco is 1.7 miles from Washington and Cherry. If z left a bike in the playground he could have road west along the path that runs parallel to Jackson then south down 23rd to California street make a right and climb the stairs of the Black House with his bike in hand - pulling bike in with him to stay the night safe and sound.

Stephen tupman

7/8/2018 07:50:58 am

Richard can you please get in touch with me . I need help locating a document . When you get in touch I will explain all . You will find it very interesting

Richard

7/8/2018 10:43:20 am

Send me the details to grinsnort@googlemail.com

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