THE ZODIAC KILLER'S DNA

9/18/2016

Here we are in 2016 and there are still huge question marks on which of the Zodiac correspondence are by the killer and which are from hoaxers. We have been told that a partial DNA fingerprint of the killer has been secured from testing various letters, stamps and envelopes. A full DNA profile is much more exact in definitively securing the identification of an actual offender, whereas a partial DNA sample may produce more than one hit on a particular database. This is explained on the 'Council of Responsible Genetics' "In cases I have reviewed over the past few years, evidentiary samples from crime scenes often produce incomplete or partial DNA profiles. Limited quantities of DNA, degradation of the sample, or the presence of inhibitors (contaminants) can make it impossible to determine the genotype at every locus. In some instances the test yields no information about the genotype at a particular locus; in some instances one of the two alleles at a locus will "drop out" (become undetectable). Because partial profiles contain fewer genetic markers (alleles) than complete profiles, they are more likely to match someone by chance. The probability of a coincidental match is higher for a partial profile than for a full profile.The risk of obtaining a match by coincidence is far higher when authorities search through thousands or millions of profiles looking for a match than when they compare the evidentiary profile to the profile of a single individual who has been identified as a suspect for other reasons."
As stated, if you have identified a Zodiac suspect through other evidence and the partial DNA then provides a match, the significance of the match is more relevant than just a random match from the general population. A comparison between Zodiac letters, if all contained partial DNA profiles, would therefore be more conclusive if a match was secured, as you have a strong evidentiary reason for doing so.

Click to view video

Dr Cydne Holt of the San Francisco DNA laboratory tested the Zodiac letters to compare to several Zodiac suspects in this case, including Arthur Leigh Allen, and in doing so these suspects were excluded as the contributors of the DNA recovered from the seal of the envelopes and stamps. It is crucial what she says in this documentary (shown below) and suggests almost without question the DNA profile held by law enforcement is that of the Zodiac Killer, as not only were matches secured between letters, but crucially from one of three envelopes mailed to the San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco Examiner and Vallejo Times-Herald on July 31st 1969,- letters verified as Zodiac correspondence, due to details the author revealed only known to the murderer and police. It is also crucial that the letters were tested using the sealed sections, so as to avoid contamination from the many handlers of the envelopes throughout the intervening years.
Narrator in the documentary "However if Doctor Cydne Holt can find enough genetic material from Zodiac's stamps and letters, she can compare it to a wafer thin slice of brain tissue from Arthur Leigh Allen's autopsy." Dr Cydne Holt "This brain tissue from Arthur Leigh Allen is the reference sample that I would use for the comparison." Narrator "Dr Holt has already detected the possible presence of Zodiac's DNA in the seal of the envelope that contained the greeting card (Dripping Pen Card and 340 cipher), and just in case that test fails to provide a full DNA profile, she also prepares to look for DNA beneath the stamps on two of these three letters (July 31st letters)." Dr Cydne Holt "Depending on whether those DNA's match each other, might allow me to include or exclude Arthur Leigh Allen as potentially contributing the DNA on the Zodiac letters."
As she states in the last line, she must match between letters to then be sure Zodiac is the contributor of the DNA. Ruling out a suspect to just one letter is meaningless, as that letter could be from the hand of a hoaxer. But by comparing the Dripping Pen Card envelope to the first three letters mailed by the killer, she can then corroborate the DNA as likely from Zodiac, before moving on and comparing it to any potential suspect. A DNA match between envelopes must have been secured, as she followed on to exclude the three subjects in the video. This with near certainty provides a link from the Dripping Pen Card to the July 31st 1969 letters and to the killer. Second Youtube video discussing the DNA here.

Click to view video

On 17th June 1996 a reddish-brown hair was discovered sealed beneath a stamp on the Stine envelope, particularly relevant due to eyewitness recollection in the aftermath of the Paul Stine murder on October 11th 1969, the killer described by the three teenagers overlooking the crime scene as having a reddish-brown crew cut. Unless a very clever Zodiac deliberately planted it there to throw investigators onto the wrong trail, knowing he indeed had used a disguise during the murder.
The hair failed to provide a DNA sample, as the root was missing, but advances over the last 20 years, particularly regarding mitochondrial DNA may yet provide useful information.
Here is a list of envelopes processed for DNA, minus the envelopes from July 31st 1969, as they had been misplaced at the time this list was compiled. It can be noticed that the 1978 'I am back with you' letter has yielded DNA material, but is attributed as not being an authentic Zodiac letter. Since authorities now have Zodiac's partial DNA profile, it is fairly certain that this letter has now been compared and effectively ruled out, laying to rest any debate about its authenticity.
What is apparent; is that although all the preceding material, including the July 31st 1969 letters, contained the evidence of cells, there is an evident departure of any recorded biological material up to 1974 on the Halloween Card, Los Angeles letter, Pines Card, Monticello Card, Citizen Card, Red Phantom letter, and possibly 13 Hole Postcard. Admittedly many of these are postcards, hence may not have been tested or attributed on this list due to the absence of an envelope, but what we are left with, is that subsequent to the 'Little List' letter mailed on July 26th 1970, we have to wait three and a half years to the 'Exorcist' letter on January 29th 1974 for any cells to be found on the envelope again (obviously dismissing the 1978 letter).
It is quite conceivable that the 'Little List' correspondence may have been Zodiac's last, unless he willfully attached himself to the Cheri Jo Bates murder by sending the 'Los Angeles' letter on March 13th 1971.

Click for info on the Exorcist letter

One has to question the validity of all the correspondence in 1974 and beyond. The Zodiac Killer was an egotist, who craved attention, yet failed to capitalize on two films released in April and December of 1971, that of 'The Zodiac Killer' and 'Dirty Harry' respectively, but waited nearly three years to comment on a film that had nothing to do with him. Was he already dead or incarcerated.
Seasoned Zodiac researcher Mike Rodelli, featured in the ABC Primetime Investigation, stated on Zodiac Killer Site forum "The DNA on the 1978 letter is supposedly what proves that letter was NOT from Zodiac. Alan Keel, who did the early DNA testing on the SFPD evidence, told both me and LL that DNA matching the 1978 letter was found on one of the 1974 letters. We still can't find out which one, though! They are both considered forgeries. So you have to be careful, IMHO, if you make a case about a suspect that involves evidence from all four of those 1974 letters because one is the odd man out. However, one of the 1974 letters is considered a forgery AND the only letter with cells found on it from that year IS the Exorcist letter! Do I dare? It is blasphemy to suggest that the Exorcist letter is the "second forgery" because of the sacred palm print. Hey, Z never left a palm print on any other letter, so maybe that suggests that he did not write that one, either!"
If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then one of the four 1974 letters is a fake. If we take the four correspondences; The 'Exorcist' letter, 'SLA' letter, 'Citizen' card and 'Red Phantom' letter, the most 'genuine' looking material is the 'Exorcist' letter. A hoaxer attempting to make the correspondence look like Zodiac, will attempt to copy known Zodiac letters, as shown by the 1978 letter, so in theory the 'Exorcist' letter could be considered the 'odd man out'.
Mike Rodelli added "There is *one person* (Dave Toschi) whose name has come up time and again as possibly having forged the 1978 letter, and he suffered for those claims. The presumed goal of a forger sending a letter like the 1978 letter would have possibly been to reinvigorate a dying investigation. After all, Zodiac had not written a letter since either May or July 1974. That is three years and change. When the Exorcist letter arrived, although it was not written like a true "Zodiac" letter with the correct opening phrase, it did have the effect of reviving a dead investigation once it was revealed as a "Zodiac" letter. Zodiac had not written in nearly three years at that point, so the investigation had gone a bit cold.
So the Exorcist letter can at least be construed as having had the same goal as what Keel said is a known forgery in the 1978 letter."
In fact none of the letters in 1974 opened with the line "This is the Zodiac Speaking", none were adorned with the crosshairs symbol, only one featured a running victim total and all were rather tame, truth be told, signed "Yours truly", "a friend", "A citizen" and "the Red Phantom." The final three letters in 1974 were also postmarked: unknown, Alameda County and San Rafael, along with the 1990 'American Greetings' card which was mailed from Eureka, a marked deviation from the geography of earlier correspondence.
The first letter to arrive, containing any DNA/cells, after the 'Little List' letter on July 26th 1970 was the 'Exorcist' letter on January 29th 1974 and both contained lines paraphrasing 'The Mikado', a satirical comedic opera by Gilbert and Sullivan. Strange therefore that the Zodiac should refer to 'The Exorcist' as "the best satirical comedy that I have ever seen," albeit introducing 'Tit Willow' into the letter, that this time appears to have little purpose or context. But does this validate the 'Exorcist' letter or does the three year Zodiac hiatus affect its apparent status, as the last confirmed Zodiac correspondence ever mailed by the killer. The fact it was confirmed as the final correspondence likely works in its favor.

THE ZODIAC KILLER'S DNA PART TWO

SMartin

9/18/2016 10:14:04 am

Why not whole exome sequence any and all DNA that can be recovered from any and all letters and compare to each other rather than to ALA's brain tissue? i.e. We don't know that the DNA is the same across all letters.

Richard

9/18/2016 10:19:54 am

We don't know that the DNA matches through all the letters, but the July 31st 1969 letters, Stine letter and 340 cipher letter are good Zodiac indicators if these matched each other. If the July 31st letters and October 13th letter are confirmed, then so are three of Zodiac's attacks. Only Lake Berryessa would be open to question.

SMartin

9/19/2016 05:53:31 am

Hi Richard, I'm a newbie and appreciate the reply!

I'm not sure my point came across -- I'm merely wondering if we can say that the DNA on all envelope seals and stamps matches.

Richard

9/19/2016 06:49:21 am

No we cannot say the DNA matches through all the envelopes and stamps. The link in the article 'list of envelopes' shows where DNA/cells were detected. The crucial letters, the Oct 13th, Dripping Pen envelope and at least two, possibly three of the July 31st 1969 letters, from the indication in the videos matched. This confirms a link. I don't know how many of the other letters and cards were tested to confirm the total number of authenticated correspondences. But if they did a thorough job, then my guess is they matched a lot more and subsequently authenticated them. What is striking is that the Halloween Card and Los Angeles letter envelopes contained no cells according to the list, unlike all the preceding envelopes that did contain cells, shedding doubt on these two correspondences. But have these two been authenticated with DNA, I don't know, only by handwriting analysis, that is subjective at best.

Alex Lewis

9/27/2016 03:59:47 pm

Rich, Who's created and is running the website Forum of http://zodiackiller.forumotion.com?

Any idea. I was considering registering but don't wan't to even try if it's one of My Pal's from the Higher Up's Clique.

Richard

9/27/2016 06:33:36 pm

Is it not Chad Ophion

ChrisF

9/18/2016 11:25:50 am

Using the DNA from letters might prove who wrote the letters, but did they find and test any of the killers DNA from the crime scene?
I though the watch found at the Cheri Jo Bates murder scene could provide some DNA or from the bloody hand print left in Paul Stine's cab.

Richard

9/18/2016 12:28:06 pm

I don't think anybody knows exactly whats been tested. Mystery Quest offered to pay for DNA to be compared to the bindings at Lake Berryessa, but got no response. What they retrieved in terms of DNA from the crime scenes is unknown to me, it all depends on whether the killer actually left anything, including fingerprints. I am unaware of any match between retrieved fingerprints on the Napa payphone or the taxicab, if the FBI files are anything to go by. But like I said, we can confirm the Zodiac mailed the Stine shirt and the July 31st 1969 letters, if these letters have been matched, which makes perfect sense they should bear the same DNA, because most people believe only the killer knew the information and details of the two crimes at Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs. So if any credible DNA could be found on items from these two crimes likely donated by the killer, then logically it should match the three letters sent by Zodiac. Again if any DNA was retrieved from the taxicab, it should logically match the DNA from the October 13th 1969 Stine letter, along with the Bus Bomb letter. But because the killer included the shirt with the letter, it ties him inextricably to the crime, unless you believe all the hoax theories, which I guess you don't. So on this basis we can be fairly certain Zodiac was responsible for at least three of the attacks. If investigators cared to test Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard's clothes, my guess is they would very likely find Zodiac's blood somewhere on the clothes, either separate or in a mixed sample, but whether they have ever bothered, I would venture they probably haven't. They probably aren't half as interested as you and I are in constantly revisiting these crimes. I contacted Sacramento police with a reasonable lead 4 weeks ago, along with the Chronicle and South Lake Tahoe police. None have replied. This tells you all you need to know on their determination to solve the Zodiac Killer crimes. My guess is they have plenty of current crimes on their plate and this is just an annoyance. Unless you stumble upon a current serving investigator, who also has a hobby in such matters, then the chances of solving this crime is possibly Jack the Ripperesque. In other words zero. All the people sitting on the evidence in this case, seem to be the only ones not as interested in solving it. It's high time Chris everything was made public, for the families sake, because otherwise it's going nowhere fast.

Richard

9/18/2016 12:46:56 pm

I honestly believe Chris if you bottle up the enthusiasm of Mike Rodelli, Michael Butterfield, Alex Lewis and a few others, give them access to all the existing information held by police, along with all the modern crime fighting tools, computers, forensic labs and records, this crime would be solved within a year. But sadly this will never happen, so I give it a 0.01% chance of being solved.

Alex Lewis

9/18/2016 11:29:14 pm

That's very complimentary Rich so thank you and I appreciate such a vote of confidence.

As far as the DNA goes the sample they used to eliminate Arthur Allen was DNA discovered on the the "I am the murderer of the Taxi Driver. . ." letter with the theory being that when searching for DNA on any of Z's letters, two things are going to be necessary.

1 - Must be a communication with little to no doubt authored & sent by the actual offender ;Zodiac.' They decided to use the Immediate credit taking letter Post Paul's Murder (I am the Murderer of the Taxi driver over by Washington streets and Maple Streets. . .") was chosen due to it containing a swatch of Paul's Shirt.

2 - The DNA must come from a place where there's no chance, or as little as possible, of cross contamination having taken place.They chose the still affixed, sealed and Air Tight underside (sticky-back) of the stamp and did find One single Partial Male Profile there which suggested it was the DNA of whoever licked the original stamp because had it been contaminated they'd have expected to find a Mixture of DNA from more than One source.

Anyway, because the sample was somewhat degraded due to time passage etc the sample was on;y a partial profile which can eliminate suspects and be able to know with certainty who Zodiac is not, as they did with Art Allen, but it's not enough to ever conclusively match it to anyone that you could ever say "That's Him" or "We have a Match"

The US National DNA Database CODIS requires DNA to have a minimum number of 9 distinct and clear markers for the Technology to compare and differentiate and/or come u with a system 'Hit' or match. Apparently, Z's Partial Profile only has 6, below the minimum number required for a suitable Sample to be entered and ran through CODIS.

Richard

9/18/2016 11:54:57 pm

True, but if of course you find a subject whose handwriting looks similar to Zodiac, his residence is nicely situated, he worked in the military, he had 10 1/2 Wing Walkers in his closet, owned blue felt tip pens and a typewriter, then his DNA matched the sample partial DNA held on file, that holds far greater significance than matching to a suspect with none of the above incriminating factors. If the Zodiac partial DNA sample is entered into CODIS, it may produce lets say 50 matches due to the lack of alleles, but this narrows your field, and with additional incriminating factors and alibis etc, you can hone in on your suspect far quicker.

Alex Lewis

9/19/2016 12:20:57 am

I agree Rich, I said exactly the same about that Fairly new Type of DNA test (it's actual formal name is another stupidly elongated scientific name that even if I could remember what it was, spelling it would be out of the question lol....I remember it begins with H, that much I do recall) that can now tell you the individual's hair and eye color with a above 90% degree of accuracy. I said with this also, it can't tell you Zodiac is Rich but it can certainly, as you pointed out, narrow the field of Suspects right down. Imagine if We could start eliminating all suspects who have Blue eyes because Science has discovered and toldUs that with a above 90% probability, The Offender/Individual called Zodiac, had Brown Eyes?

Anyway, I asked Destry yesterday if He knew of or could remember His Father ever mentioning a witness having u=identified a Man By name in P. Heights as possibly being responsible for Paul's Murder?He said No and asked is that what happened and I confirmed Yes but that for reasons that confuse Me, SFPD, Press, nor any official channel ever made One reference to this. Destry's response was simply "That is strange, I don't know why a Dpt. would do that."

I'm going to ask Harvey's Brother Oliver is the anything He could do to get any information regarding this because Oliver Himself, like His late Brother Harvey, is A former Police Officer Himself and that in itself is huge when you are wanting to approach any Police Agency to ask them for a favor or even simply to look into a inquiry you may have.

Greg H.

9/18/2016 10:27:10 pm

Something interesting concerning the Eureka letter in 1990. Before Vallejo was given its name it was to be called Eureka:

"In 1850, Vallejo proposed plans for a new city, to be called Eureka, with the capitol, university, botanical garden and other features. After a statewide referendum, his proposal was accepted, although a new name was decided upon: Vallejo."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallejo,_California

Sally Weare (aka)

8/10/2018 01:48:40 am

Another interesting thing about "town names" is that Zodiac often mentions taking vicitms to paradice (sic). There is a town named Paradise in general Vallejo area. I always wondered if Zodiac was dropping a hint and that something about Paradise,CA was relevant to him--I was sure someone had already investigated this (???) it is so obvious, does anyone know? Thanks!

Greg H.

9/18/2016 10:53:31 pm

There's a noticeable aberration with the Exorcist letter in that his i's are all dotted in an affected, painstaking way, with a circle instead of a dot. I tried going through his main body of letters and didn't notice that anywhere else. I sensed he never cared much about the style of his penmanship, but for two exceptions--the Exorcist letter and the Red Phantom.
Valid letters or not, his tone certainly changed in 1974. Notably absent was the over-the-top egotism and bragging that defined his earlier letters. Assuming this was him, and there's no promise of that of course, his attention now seemed to be more focused on the world beyond himself. He expresses these thoughts in a cryptic way, alluding to a couple of modern films, the SLA, and then the general bizarrity of the Red Phantom letter.
He certainly could have undergone a change of character in the 3 years he dropped out of the spotlight. His circumstances may have been different now and he no longer cared to hold on to the "Zodiac" identity (which, honestly, appears to be something he just made up off-the-cuff along the way; in July of '69 he was just the "murderer" then a month later he was "The Zodiac."
I don't know how much it meant to him or if he ever truly internalized it--it lasted all of 18 months, give or take (8/69-3/71)...

Richard

9/18/2016 11:25:39 pm

Yes Greg I too noticed the circled dots on his I's, which he only did once. That is a good point about his internalization of his Zodiac identity, and yes his subject matter seemed to turn away from himself for the final few letters, the two films, a columnist and Patty Hearst. In addition from the Halloween Card onwards he focuses in on Paul Avery. The Pines Card, Los Angeles letter, Exorcist (in response to Avery's article) and SLA letter (in response to Avery and his coverage on this topic).
Another strange thing I noticed, but take this with a pinch of salt, is the Paul Stine October 13th 1969 envelope. This is the only correspondence he ever mails with his crosshair on the envelope. This is also the envelope that contains the reddish-brown hair 'conveniently' sitting under the stamp. It may be a step too far to suggest this was deliberate, but just for the record I'll put it here.
On the left of the envelope he draws A CROSSHAIR. If we do a slight play on words we get ACROSS HAIR, and indeed across from his symbol is a hair, nestled conveniently under the stamp. However this theory comes with a health warning Greg.

Greg H.

9/19/2016 09:51:08 pm

Good spot, Richard; Never noticed that crosshair on the upper left of the Oct. 13, '69 envelope.
I think he may have still been on an adrenaline high when he mailed that letter out; it was so soon after the Stine shooting and coming within inches of being captured. Psychologically he had to have been spinning--alternatively amped up on his constructed persona (hence the logo on the envelope) whilst sweating bullets and dropping fragments of hair onto the adhesive.
Quite honestly, it's surprising more hairs weren't found under the glue of the stamps and envelopes.
I used to have two things--a dog and a job that required me to mail out weekly reports via 'snail mail.'
I'd always get aggravated because when I'd prepare the envelopes I'd notice strands of my dog's hair that would inevitably wind up along the clasp. I'm sure bits and pieces of my own hair were probably also getting stuck to the glue as well...
I don't exactly know the science behind this, just how much hair or DNA typically ends up on the sticky portions of paper mail. I'm sure it's probably a good amount though. I hardly ever mail letters anymore so it's not something I'm really looking at closely. But if he left only one strand of hair behind in all the letters he sent, I'd say he definitely did well for himself.

Richard

9/20/2016 04:54:48 am

Alex, could these be Paul Stine's glasses in the arm rest on the right of the photograph.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/photographs-11.html

Richard

9/20/2016 06:07:05 am

Watch the video in full screen for a view of the potential glasses.
https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=1h21m25s

Alex Lewis

9/23/2016 08:54:21 am

Might be Rich, who knows?

- Paul's trip sheet? Fled the scene & is a wanted fugitive.

- Police report claim: 'Victim devoid of any currency.' Coroner during Autopsy disputes this finding money in Paul's Pants Pocket.

- Assumed Paul happened across Z on Street, thumb extended. HH states Toschi personally told Him that He (Toschi & SFPD) "Had determined the killer had called for a cab using the payphone in downtown union square" end quote.

As I said before mate, if your looking for continuity of crime and facts as they truly panned out on Oct. 11. . . .Don't go to SFPD.

Just My opinion.

scout69

9/28/2016 12:58:23 pm

no are not Paul glasses ZODIAC have as a trophy but those belong to someone else who was a taxi driver too but I could not get the info from ......ZODIAC

Richard

9/21/2016 04:19:05 am

As you can see across the forums, despite the DNA from at least 2 of the July 31st letters, along with the October 13th letter and Dripping Pen Card letter matching and declared genuine Zodiac correspondence, and the first letters detailing only things known by the killer and the shirt as confirmation, this simply is not enough for some people. This article sums it up http://www.zodiackillersite.com/download/file.php?id=4879

"Arthur Leigh Allen does not match the partial DNA fingerprint developed from bona fide Zodiac letters." Robert Graysmith, who I actually respect and did so much in the Zodiac case, proves the point that people who have written books down the years and invested so much into the case, with long held "dog with a bone" suspects, have too much to lose. Instead of accepting the inevitable that it is not Arthur Leigh Allen who wrote the Zodiac letters, out comes the diatribe, the conspiracy theories, the police cover ups, the hoaxes and the two conspirators in the crime scenario. Brain whirring "I will now go with Allen being the murderer and not the letter writer". Robert Graysmith's response to the DNA consigning his suspect to the rubbish bin, along with both his books "I've always wondered if there wasn't more than one person involved , someone running interference for Allen." Quick, get those books off the fire, we have an alternative hypotheses, and by hell if two people are ever ruled out, then a whole football team were involved or possibly aliens from outer space. Sometimes no matter what evidence disproving a suspect you throw into the mix, it is never enough for some people. In fact Dave Slaight and Nancy Slover said Allen didn't sound like Zodiac. Donald Fouke, the often maligned police officer stated that Allen wasn't the man, 100 lbs too heavy. The list goes on.
As I found out earlier this year when displaying photographic evidence disproving a long held 47 year myth, people still didn't believe what they were seeing regarding their own two eyes. The Lake Herman Road photographs of the Rambler are the truth of the turnout, but people don't accept it. If for example I showed Robert Graysmith and the like a photograph of the killer in the Lake Herman Road turnout with a gun in his hand, actually killing the couple, with a big cheesy grin, staring into the camera, proving it wasn't Arthur Leigh Allen they still wouldn't believe it. Out would come the "he is wearing a disguise, like he did at Presidio Heights", "the photograph has been doctored", "it's a police conspiracy", etc etc etc.
The Zodiac is now officially half the male population of Vallejo in 1969, 600 people in San Francisco, Clint Eastwood, Donald Duck, and everybody who wore black glasses, who happened to be a bit shifty. If people spent half the time looking for things that exclude their suspect, instead of the whole time constructing this elaborate jigsaw puzzle around their pet suspects, they would realize they in actual fact have very little. The bias in every word they type, the bias they take into every argument, and the very fact that when you challenge their claims, the haunches go up, the venom comes spewing out and the nastiness begins, telling you unequivocally that this person is a lost soul to the Zodiac case. Their impartiality has been taken away, by the rabid pursuit of the rabbit in their headlights and their inability to enter any forum thread without injecting their suspect into it, even though the thread has nothing to do with their pet rabbit. It reminds me of 'The Walking Dead' , the lost souls ravenous in their pursuit of prey, stumbling into every forum thread and attempting to infect everybody else, with their insatiable desire for victims. It seems the new fashion fad, identity a suspect, grab a few coincidences and blindly run with it until you start to feel that burning sensation. When somebody criticizes your suspect and the foam starts drooling from your mouth, you know you've been bitten by the 'Zodiac Suspect' bug, the infection has started and your soul has been lost forever.

Waffle Much? link

9/22/2016 11:07:47 pm

Richard Grinell:
(1 year 4 months ago)

“we create ever increasing tangents, in effect taking us probably further away from the real truth”. I agree we do and I never excluded myself from that argument. Hence the we. All the articles on my site are not exempt and they are designed to generate discussion and are not all my widely held beliefs, simply I put an idea forward to generate debate.

“he would be later ruled out using DNA and fingerprint analysis”. He was ruled out by law enforcement after his DNA and fingerprints were compared with known samples. I NEVER PERSONALLY RULED ALLEN OUT. And the search does go on (BUT WITH HIM AS A VIABLE SUSPECT).

Richard

9/23/2016 12:45:28 am

Richard Grinell (now);
1. Allen has been ruled out of writing the Zodiac letters.
2. Allen hasn't been ruled out of the Zodiac murders.(but it's extremely unlikely)
3. But don't believe there was one Zodiac, then change to two after the fact, because the results don't suit the narrative. I would like to see one example of somebody claiming Allen was not the letter writer, but the murderer, as part of a team, prior to the DNA. Changing stories after the fact is a weak argument.

O.E.D. / Q.E.D. link

9/23/2016 07:07:40 am

The Concise Oxford Dictionary:

viable (a.) (of plan etc.) feasible, practicable

Richard

9/21/2016 07:16:12 am

It has also been suggested that the stamps or the sealed portions of the envelope may have been contaminated through the many hands they have passed through down the years. The sealed areas were tested for DNA and the enzyme amylase specific in saliva was detected, indicating that the envelope and stamps had been sealed by the killer. These trace samples of DNA, with modern scientific practices, can be amplified using PCR (polymerase chain reaction) to produce a meaningful amount of material for comparison, as was done in this case.

Alex Lewis

9/23/2016 03:00:07 pm

Richard now lease. . .Let's not be rude/ignorant. Introduce Me to your good friend: "Waffle Much."

I don'tn know, call Me cynical & suspicious but, "Much Waffle" I suspect could be an Alias! Not just any Alias though. . . No No! A possible Member, or even One of the Web-Site's real Gestapo Officers come Here and is going to, wait for it. . . Observe!

Careful what you write now Richard or you'll see "Waffle Much" burst from cover: "PAPERS PLEASE!!"

WelshChappie

9/23/2016 04:27:45 pm

On a more serious note Rich, there's been another Unarmed BMA shot dead by White Cop in US.

This time the Man's wife was heard pleading with the cops moments before it ended in gunfire shouting: "Please dn't shoot Him, He is not armed" almost as in expectation that She expects them to shoot Him.

I really don't know what sort of mentality these cops have where it seems they can shoot any Black person because they are entitled with a uniform & badge.

It will happen before very long & rightfully so, young Black Men will shoot first to eliminate the threat that has a badge and gun, and I wouldn't blame them a bit.

If your a BMA and get stopped by H'way Patrol,never reach for your licence in the Glove Box when cop asks you for your licence or you'll be shot dead in your seat. What fear to live under just for driving down the street!

Llawer Malu Awyr link

9/23/2016 05:31:10 pm

Jon Ronson, Welshman: a talented journalist, author, humourist, documentary filmmaker, and radio presenter.

Alex Lewis? ... nid yn gymaint.

Alex Lewis

9/23/2016 11:30:09 pm

journalist, author, humourist, documentary filmmaker, and radio presenter.

"Alex Lewis?. . . Not so Much?"

Oh, a dagger through the Heart! That Hurts! However, as We have learned, Mr Ronson was a busy Man who was milti-talented in many area's.

Not much like Myself as you so correctly note. Yep, tis true & you'll get no argument from Me about that. Although I will point out, because I can, I may not your humorist, but I can, however, spell the word correctly which U (excuse the pub) seemed to be unable. Back to the drawing board Mr Welsh Writer, start again!

Richard

9/23/2016 11:46:15 pm

I think you'll find the cop was black, but the main issue is how badly trained they are. The Terence Crutcher shooting is a perfect example of racial bias, twitchy cops and what guns create. Fear, mistrust and apprehension on the streets. You heard the racist cop in the helicopter, he knew this man was a 'bad dude' from 1000 feet. The only thing noticeable from this distance was his colour. Nobody in the world believes that if this was a white female 22 year old blond, the same thing would have happened. They shot him because he was black and you can understand the anger. In the Keith Lamont Scott shooting, it is no surprise nobody believes the police, they lie and spin the truth every single time somebody gets murdered by them and 99.99% of the time they are cleared. Just release the video if it proves he had a gun, but they won't. In the case of Betty Shelby case, I'm extremely surprised she has been charged, but even if she is convicted, she will get the minimum of likely 4 years and be out in 1 or 2. It will be a token sentence. I'm afraid to say the policing and corruption in the courts is notorious.
What makes me laugh, is that the police are that stupid, that they cannot seem to understand, that with every unlawful shooting and every injustice, the bullseye on their back gets bigger every time they do these murders. Nobody wants to see police get shot, but eventually more people will target them, simply because they are allowed to kill with impunity and nothing happens. This isn't rocket science, but like I always said, live by the gun, die by the gun.

Richard

9/24/2016 12:00:09 am

My point exactly http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37460461

Richard

9/24/2016 12:06:43 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37455073
""Dressing as a clown and driving, walking or standing in public can create a dangerous situation for you and others," police in nearby Barbourville, Kentucky."

What's the problem here, Donald Trump has been doing this for years.

Richard

9/24/2016 12:18:40 am

Here is a statistic for you Alex;
In 2016 US police have killed 793 people.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database
In 96 years UK police have killed 63 people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom

Alex Lewis

9/24/2016 12:46:02 am

"Live by the Gun, Die by the Gun"

I can do neither as One doesn't have a gun. :-)

Fair Play, that statement about Trump literally made me Laugh out Loud.

Trump is necessary for and is being touted as a breath of fresh air, Not A Republican nor Democrat for President which will represent a peoples President, bringing hope and change. Ha!

Trump is necessary because the Republicans and Democrats are running out of pledges and believable candidates to run for Office. They've pulled every gimmick they can think of, "Obama, first back President, this will bring about hope & change. . ."

Found out Obama is just like all other Presidents before Him, promise much, deliver little to nothing. Trump will be no different if elected, the power behind the throne will make sure of it.

Obama ran for President with a pledge and promise that the first Job He will do as President, if elected, is close Guantanamo Bay. He's been in office several years now and Guantanamo is still open for torture. Don't get me wrong, I do think He told the truth about wanting to see it closed, but when He was elected, the powers behind the scenes won't let their torture factory be closed.

Smacks of CIA running the show and Country because that's the agency that has the interest in Guantanamo being open, nobody else. Again, it makes Kennedy's determination to "Smash the CIA into a thousand pieces" after firing Allen Dulles all the more understandable

Greg H.

9/21/2016 09:53:33 pm

Hah..I just wrote a post about this on Facebook before viewing your above comment! Based on what researchers discovered in the JonBenet Ramsey case, it seems very possible that the envelopes/stamps may not have necessarily been contaminated through handling after Zodiac touched/licked them, but what if DNA was deposited them on them BEFORE he ever came into contact with them? Namely, in the packing and manufacturing process. This is what was found in the Ramsey case, anyway--they looked at a brand new, sealed pair of underwear and found DNA on it. So basically the DNA on her underwear may not have been from an intruder but it could have been present from when she bought them. Obviously if they'd been washed this would probably destroy that preexisting DNA. But they never raised that point.
Just tossing out ideas for where the Zodiac DNA could have come from, if not he himself. If it was indeed from saliva then that would override these other possibilities.

Richard

9/22/2016 01:33:49 am

This is obviously possible Gregory as you've pointed out. However in this case, if you have DNA matched through several letters ie from July 31st and November 8th, the likelihood of contamination from the exact same individual in the manufacturing process is not likely. Also when they swabbed the envelope inner and stamp, they logically could have compared one to another, plus when they magnified the sample using PCR they would have obtained two mixed DNA samples, as they did of Bob Loomis and his wife when testing the Gaikowski letter. The fact they declared they found a male DNA fingerprint that was likely the Zodiac, means they couldn't have found two, otherwise this declaration is invalid. Also if the DNA from the stamp and envelope match to a single letter or between letters, this effectively rules out contamination and certifies an individual donor, even if it is partial. The stamp on the Dripping Pen Card was analyzed, the envelope inners on other correspondence, they certainly would have compared these for clarification, because acquiring DNA from just one letter proves nothing on it's own. If this is obvious to you and I, then I'm sure it was to Cydne Holt and other scientists.

Richard

9/23/2016 03:36:53 pm

Hey Alex I was reading the Robbins kids later interview again and them stating that nobody was driven past them or brought close to the scene for them to identity. But there were persisting rumours, as you are aware, that somebody was taken in a patrol car and driven to a point where they could be possibly be identified by a witness. For the police to find a suspect and place him in the car shortly after the crime, it's logical they were aware of where to find him, ie; an address. The only way for this to happen is if the eyewitness recognized the suspect and they, or their family knew the whereabouts of the suspect. If he was placed in a patrol car shortly after the crime, he was likely tracked down fairly quickly, such as Xen in Jackson. The kid corroborates his earlier statement that this was the man he saw, hence the FBI file taking the sighting seriously . He obviously is later cleared on the fingerprint evidence, albeit so has just about everybody else. In the second document I secured http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/volkswagen.gif?731 - it only references four DOB's suggesting four suspects. I wonder if the 4th row is the 'identifier' or witness.

Alex Lewis

9/23/2016 04:35:24 pm

Well Pelissetti claims in His non public version that around Jax & Maple He observed a WMA in the drive entrance way of a residence and called him over and "kept Him around with Me for a while"

Now Armond denies outright it was Qvale, so let's for a moment believe Him. Who was this WMA, and what has He detained this WMA for? Another Unit to come and pick Him up, or maybe drive by with witness in back for dent purpose?

I think this is how the ident occurs and have said that all along.

Alex Lewis

9/23/2016 04:46:56 pm

Didn't the witnesses say that what Happened after Armond took off after Z along Cherry was for another time to be told? It's likely His being told by Fouke "WMA with crew cut & glasses just went up the stairwell toward the home on the corner of Maple! Armond heads there, specifically to chec the residential grounds. Upon Armond's Arival He looks down the darkened driveway, weapon drawn and order given "Put your hands on your head and step toward Me Sir. . ." He find'sthis WMA on the very driveway that colleague Don has spoke of not 30 seconds ago.

Armond is on foot remember, and so doesn't have a radio to call for units as the technology wasn't available for cops to each have an individual radio, that's why patrol units were referred to as 'Radio Units' or 'Radio Cars' because the cruizers had them, ot the cop.

SCOUT69

9/28/2016 01:01:04 pm

ZODIAC always use someone else to make some letters to disguise the law enforcement like the letter was send to TOM VOIGHT

Sally Weare

11/20/2016 08:29:45 am

Pardon me if this has been covered elsewhere--still reading it all--but from what I have read, the Bates woman in Riverside put up quite a fight and scratched her attacker. Were any scrapings done of her fingernails? Wouldn't that have a lot of DNA from skin, blood? Was it lost or did they ever get a profile of it? Second question, where did Gyke live in March of 1975--was he living or working close to The Presidio? Thank you for your time.

Richard

11/20/2016 10:23:04 am

The hair shaft retrieved from the base of Cheri Jo Bates thumb was used to extract mitochondrial DNA of the possible murderer. This can eliminate suspects, but not definitively be matched to an individual. No full DNA profile has yet been extracted in this or the Zodiac case. It is highly likely the reason is degradation of biological matter retrieved from the fingernails of Cheri Jo Bates. Here are the documents related to the tests undertaken Sally.
http://zodiacrevisited.com/cheri-jo-bates-evidence-analysis/
In 1974 Gaikowski, entranced by his theatrical leanings resurrected the 1909 built Roxie Theater in Mission District, which was home to adult themed productions and alongside Robert Evans in 1976 transformed the theater back into a repertory calendar house for the showing of independent films, documentaries, art based productions and the unconventional.
The long and the short of it Sally, is I am unsure of his exact address. Only that when he returned to San Francisco, it was to Haight - Ashbury.

Richard

11/20/2016 11:04:53 am

It could be Guerrero Street, San Francisco.
http://www.spokeo.com/Richard-Gaikowski/California

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Richard-Gaikowski-S-F-writer-filmmaker-2783636.php

http://radaris.com/~Richard-Gaikowski/108292391

http://ca3.whitepageprofiles.com/94110-293.htm

Sally Wear

11/20/2016 12:32:33 pm

Thanks so much for taking time out to answer those questions Richard. I have always been fascinated by this case (true crime buff) and re-watched the movie yesterday afternoon, and I am re-reading the Greysmith book which I have read several times. Hoping science can progress to the point where there can be a DNA match of some kind in the future. (I think they have lifted some from dinosaurs) My husband was in the Army in '75 and we took a TDY to SF where he took a course at Letterman in The Presidio. We stayed in an economy motel right outside and had drinks at Liverpool Lils. I think ALA was in Atascadero (sp) at that exact time, but if he was not the Zodiac. it boggles my mind to think I might have actually been in the ZK's actual air space, or on a bus with him or something else. Thanks again. I will be exploring all these links next few days. A true mystery.....

Alex Lewis

11/20/2016 11:21:23 pm

Hey Sally, good to see You posting here with your ideas and thoughts. As for the DNA Sal, the Science and technology doesn't need to advance in order for it to be used to run against suspects not to get a 100% match no, but it can eliminate all who are not Zodiac. If any proof were needed, look no further than Arthur Allen and Kjell Qvale respectively for this point to be proven.

Science doesn't need to advance and evolve Sal, The Law Agencies and Human Mentality does and they accept and agree that David, Betty, Dee, Cecelia and Paul are deserving of Justice today as they were the moment their right to live was taken by another who self appointed Himself the right to decide for these Five real people they will die when encountering Him.

To most, Betty-Lou Jensen is a Name, A Photograph, A Statistic! That is to dehumanise A Human and their life. Betty was a human being with the a family that the loved Her just as much We love our nearest and dearest. Betty had a World of opportunity waiting for Her, and then encountered an individual who decided for Her on Her behalf that She will not see a Seventeenth Year on Earth.

Kimberley

8/9/2018 09:44:23 pm

Bettie Lou and David Ferraday were killed due to mistaken identity. Period- Darleen Ferrin look a like... When Zodiac got back from being gone at sea for nearly a year, he came back to a land of Darleen lies and her moving and not telling him about it. She witnessed him murder cheri jo bates but never told him knowing he would be gone at sea soon. He paid all her bills and wassail paying her bills when he came back. Couldn't find Drleen any where. Saw a woman whom he thought was Darleen, which was actually Bettie Lou Jensen. Mistaken identity kill.

Judith N Chapman

12/18/2016 10:31:57 pm

Look to the desk top poem for circles with the dots in the center. I have handwriting samples from my suspect with the same idiosyncrasy, look at my postings on zodiac killer.com Tom's buried me under General discussion under Etc Peter Plante Any news on Riverside's attempts to do new DNA testing?

Detective Doolittle

3/17/2017 09:50:37 am

New theory, Richard is the Zodiac Killer!!! He knows too much!!!

Steven R Hughes

11/30/2017 09:57:03 am

Considering DNA evidence, any thought to the fact that Arthur Leigh Allen and Paul Avery were both born in Honolulu one year apart and may have been childhood friends, or maybe even hanky panky half-brothers.

Kimberley

8/9/2018 09:29:45 pm

There was an ex us navy cryptogram specialist that the San Francisco police were in touch with back in the late 1960's early 70's. His name was Henry. He was from Montana. He wrote to the police with his findings on the Zodiacs cyphers. On one of. them he found a Kimberley involved in the cypher which freaked me out due to I was already thinking my Uncle may of been the zodiac killer. Then come to find out my Uncle may just be my Dad..(?) I then find a picture of one of the Zodiac victims, Darleen Ferrin and I am the spitting image of her... All my life I wondered why my Mom or the Mom I know as my Mother, why she never had ANY baby pictures of me..? She has 4 other children and all of them have tons of pictures of them when they were baby's. I'm the only one that doesn't. The Mom that raised me, her name is LETA. I then find another Zodiac letter from this Henry from Montana on another zodiac cypher that reads he found the name LEDA in the cypher. Henry said it may have something to do with the LEDA and the Swan which is from greek mythology. I look that up , read it and nearly fell out of my seat ! It says that LEDA was given a baby girl and raised her as her own Daughter. However the baby girl was not hers. Was Zodiac trying to live out LEDA and the Swan in real life..? Or did it just fit what he needed at the time for the cypher clues..? Zodiac seemed to do this ALOT-- I order my Uncles DD214 Forms from the military. As soon as I started going thru them chills ran down my spine and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck~! The only fingerprints of the Zodiac hat I have found are from the Paul Stine taxi driver murder. The prints show he has cross like cuts on some of his prints. The prints are some what smeared however match exactly where my Uncles prints have cross like damage on his prints. Coincidence..? Handwriting also matched the Zodiacs. I mean to the "T" they matched- The reason the Vallejo police are extracting Zodiacs DNAnow is because I contacted them showed them everything I had found. Esp when I showed them a picture of myself along side pictures of Darleen Ferrin. They then called me up immediately. Det. Poyser said the resemblance is amazing~! He wanted me to have my DNA done to compare to their possible DNA that they were going to have done. I am the reason for their recent DNA interest in the Zodiac killer. (2018) So if you want to solve zodiacs cyphers you should see if the Henry that analyzed his cyphers is still around, alive. The guy was right on it I think... best of luck~

Sandy link

4/27/2019 10:44:17 am

I read that the 78 letter that was once thought to be from a copy cat, has sense been authenticated as being a true Zodiac letter. Has anyone else read that? I know that Dave Toschi told me back in 1970 , that Zodiac had a very strange way of sealing his envelopes. Was the 78 letter sealed that same way?

Bet the kids licked the stamps

5/9/2020 03:42:47 pm

My mom hated the taste of stamps and envelopes, so if there was a kid around they'd stop them on their way by to do the job for them. That's was one of the perks of having kids. My dna is on hundreds of stamps and envelopes long before I could write my name.

sandy link

5/13/2020 09:13:09 am

If you are suggesting that Zodiac may have used his children to lick the stamps, that DNA would still trace back to him. That is why GEDMatch worked to catch the GSK.

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THE ZODIAC KILLER'S DNA

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