ZODIAC CIPHERS
Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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THE ZODIAC KILLER- FAMILIAL DNA

5/5/2018

 
Picture
Much expectation has surrounded the capture of 72-year-old Joseph James DeAngelo on suspicion of 50 rapes and 12 murders between 1976 and 1986 in California, with respect to the possible future identification of the Zodiac Killer through the use of genealogy websites and familial DNA testing. The Sacramento Bee newspaper stated "Vallejo police Detective Terry Poyser, who has worked the Zodiac case for four years, said his agency has submitted two envelopes that contained letters from the Zodiac Killer for a type of advanced DNA analysis that previously had not been available in the case. Poyser declined to identify the lab, but said it would attempt to obtain a full DNA profile from saliva on the envelope flap and stamps. He said he expected to have results back from the lab as soon as in the next few weeks, and almost certainly by summer. Referring to testing done in 2002 "Poyser said that DNA sample was hampered because technology didn't exist at the time to separate the glue used on the stamps and envelopes from the genetic material. However, science now has advanced to allow a clean grab of the DNA."

PicturePeter Sutcliffe
Peter Sutcliffe, known as the Yorkshire Ripper, was convicted of thirteen counts of murder and seven counts of attempted murder in England between 1969 and 1980. The case was severely hampered by poor detective work and the intervention of a hoaxer dubbed 'Wearside Jack,' who falsely claimed to be the murderer, sending detectives three letters and a cassette recording between 1978 and 1979.

One letter read  "Dear Sir, I am sorry I cannot give my name for obvious reasons. I am the Ripper. I've been dubbed a maniac by the Press but not by you, you call me clever and I am. You and your mates haven't a clue that photo in the paper gave me fits and that bit about killing myself, no chance. I've got things to do. My purpose to rid the streets of them sluts. My one regret is that young lassie McDonald, did not know cause changed routine that night. Up to number 8 now you say 7 but remember Preston '75. get about you know. You were right I travel a bit. You probably look for me in Sunderland, don't bother, I am not daft, just posted letter there on one of my trips. Not a bad place compared with Chapeltown and Manningham and other places. Warn whores to keep off streets cause I feel it coming on again. Sorry about young lassie. Yours respectfully, Jack the Ripper.

Might write again later I not sure last one really deserved it. Whores getting younger each time. Old slut next time I hope. Huddersfield never again, too small close call last one."


Picture
In 2005, only three years after the Zodiac documentary with Cydne Holt, in which the programme claimed only a partial DNA sample was acquired, police made a major breakthrough in the 'Wearside Jack' investigation. "Senior officers from West Yorkshire Police's Homicide and Major Inquiry Team, headed by Det Chief Supt Chris Gregg, decided to review the case. A small piece of the gummed seal from one of the envelopes was located in a forensic laboratory and following publicity about the cold case review the hoax tape was retrieved from a retired scientist who had worked on the original investigation. As a result of this cold case review, DNA from envelopes sent by Humble as part of the hoax were matched in the United Kingdom National DNA Database with samples police had obtained from Humble in an unrelated incident in 2000, when he had been arrested and cautioned for being drunk and disorderly. By this time Humble had become an alcoholic loner." Wikipedia.  John Samuel Humble was arrested and sentenced to eight years in jail. After 26 years, the gum on the 1979 envelope required only a few cells to generate a profile from the DNA database. It would seem the technology did exist in 2005 for a "clean grab" of DNA from the glue - and other cases exist.

Yet here we are, thirteen years later, waiting in expectation once again, despite having a possible 30 letters at our disposal and numerous double postage stamps available for testing. Whether or not the Zodiac envelopes and stamps were licked by the killer and contain enough traces of saliva, if at all, should not be an argument in 2018. The Golden State Killer case may have jolted the investigation around the Zodiac Killer into life, with the use of familial DNA testing - but this scientific advancement is nothing new, having been available through current DNA databases for years. The use of familial DNA testing in the USA has been bedeviled with privacy issues, currently adopted by very few states in America, including California. 
​

PictureClothing and personal effects from Lake Berryessa
The implementation or otherwise of familial DNA testing through databases such as CODIS, searching for near matches of blood relatives, could be the difference between apprehending a serial killer such as the Zodiac or Golden State Killer, or not.

There is a possibility that besides the July 31st 1969 letters and others, the items recovered from Lake Berryessa may contain the Zodiac Killer's blood. Often during bladed attacks, the assailant will cut themselves and deposit blood at the crime scene. By all accounts Bryan Hartnell played dead to avoid further repeated stabbing, but unfortunately Cecelia Shepard did not adopt this strategy and hence sustained greater knife injuries to her back and abdomen. If the Zodiac had knowingly left while under the impression one person was still alive, then had he cut himself during the latter part of the attack as the knife became sodden with blood, not dissimilar to the murder of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside on October 30th 1966. If so, this may provide investigators with the possibility of testing for DNA on the clothing and blanket recovered from Lake Berryessa on September 27th 1969. 


On June 9th 1984, Melanie Road, 17, was stabbed to death in Bath, Somerset, England. She had been brutally stabbed 26 times. "A trail of blood matching Hampton's blood group, and later his DNA, was found leading from nearby St Stephen's Road in the direction of his home half a mile away."  Independent.  It was entered into the UK database.
Thirty years later his daughter, then aged 41, was arrested for a domestic incident, leading to a familial DNA match to the genetic fingerprint stored in the database. Christopher Hampton was jailed for 22 years in 2015.

Privacy issues have been argued over the recent Golden State Killer case and aggressively pursued in many American states regarding the use of familial DNA to trace offenders. The same issues have arisen over the use of CCTV trailing our every move. One can ask yourself the question - if the killer of your mother was captured on CCTV or through familial DNA testing, would you argue against its use when it helps you, or only argue against it when it helps somebody else.

If you think the DNA in the Zodiac case is too old and degraded, then think again. Detectives in the 'Little Red Riding Hood' murder of 12-year-old Muriel Drinkwater
from Swansea in 1946, extracted DNA from a semen stain on her coat in 2008.
This has been touted as "possibly the oldest one in the world to be successfully extracted in a murder investigation. In 2008, a team of retired detectives investigating cold cases found Drinkwater's clothes in storage. Her blue coat, her underwear and school uniform had been wrapped in a paper bag and stored. On the back of the coat, a no-longer visible semen stain was circled with yellow crayon. Scientists successfully retrieved a DNA profile from the stain on the coat. A familial DNA profile was extracted using a technique called Y-STR, but no match was found in the national DNA database. Hubert Hoyles, who saw her after buying eggs at her parent's farm, was cleared by the DNA evidence. He stated he had long been suspected by some locals as the murderer and was happy to clear his name." Wikipedia.

It seems rather odd to now claim with renewed optimism, the possibility of generating a full and complete DNA fingerprint of the Zodiac Killer, when this possibility has been there for years. The recent likely capture of the Golden State Killer has given a much needed 'kick up the backside' to the Zodiac investigation. But it shouldn't have been required.

Lemonboy
5/5/2018 01:54:32 pm

Richard how likely would it be that Zodiac would’ve licked his stamps realistically? I know DNA wasn’t around back then but if we assume he was in law enforcement he would have maybe some knowledge of DNA in its beginning stages? If we believe he left fake”clews”at the stine crime scene it could be he knew exactly what police would look for, making me believe he wouldn’t do something like lick his stamps either by knowledge of police work or maybe just paranoia.

Richard
5/5/2018 02:42:35 pm

I believe he did. Certain things can be gleaned from saliva such as secretor and non-secretor status. A Non-secretor is someone, who through their own genetics, carries a gene which inhibits them from secreting their ABO blood type in their secretions.
You can detect salivary amylase (ptyalin) without being able to detect DNA. I expect any results to show that Zodiac licked his envelopes and stamps- there would have been little risk 50 years ago. DNA first entered the courts in 1986 with the conviction of Colin Pitchfork, so I doubt any foresaw the use of DNA in criminal investigations in 1969-1974. Just like before the advent of fingerprint testing.

Shawn
5/5/2018 05:39:10 pm

I doubt any new Zodiac DNA will be found.

Zodiac Killer case has been high profile for years. The DNA has been worked several times.

Golden State Killer has been a rather obscure case for many years. Sacramento saw GSK as a very solvable case from the abundance of DNA linking crimes. They created a task force and patted themselves on the back for finding DeAngelo.

I do not hear of a task force being formed to solve the Zodiac case.
Even though it is the ultimate unsolved Serial Killer case in America.

Shelli
5/5/2018 02:16:43 pm

One needn't lick a stamp or envelope for that matter. The post offices would keep a shallow water dish with a piece of sponge sitting in it. A quick swipe and stamp and envelope handled without biologicals I expect Z was that smart, but just opinion.

BB
5/5/2018 04:06:04 pm

Dear Richard

The moonlight murders of 1946 were so similar to the pattern in Zodiac they need to compare DNA.

Also has LE ever compared DNA to the "Phantom Slayer"of Texarkana?
All these couple killings should have the DNA compared.


We need LE to get reformed. The flashlight used by GSK should have been a clue that he was a cop. Just like with the moonlight murders of the Phantom Slayer and the Zodiac Killer the victims were blinded by the light. Of a flashlight. Of course that does not prove anything? But it was a good clue. As it did turn-out to be true. That leads us to why the cops can't get one of there own.

Is this what they call the code of silence? Is that the real reason for so many unsolved murders. How many did Drew Peterson kill? Are we sure it was only three? SHUSH UP! Cops are good people. We don't need anyone casting aspersions... Or do we? Oh no I should not talk like that zodiac - he referred to them as pigs and blue meanies. All we need is a sprinkling with holy water. Actually we need to recruit a different type of cop - college educated - and we need to bring back Internal affairs.

The reason the capture of the Golden State Killer has given a much needed 'kick up the backside' to the Zodiac investigation is cuz it broke the proverbial ice. Cops were too scared to be honest. It crosses their thin blue line to have to arrest one of themselves. It never entered their mind.

Also there ain't no police for the police anymore. No I.A. since Poppy Bush. The entire legal system in the United States is due for a complete overhaul. The police lobby disposed of Internal Affairs and promoted the building of the prison industrial complex. Millions of people are locked up. The saying here is "California on vacation leave on probation". And, the cops are not going to change this set up (of the police state) we the people have to wise up and vote in the right people to change things. Stop the fear mongering. Censure the terror campaigning done in the media so people can think logically. Then cops can see that they need to be policed themselves stand up to the police state - arrest the corrupt cops. Re-establish the Internal Affairs.

Lemonboy
5/5/2018 04:58:21 pm

I agree that after the EAR being a cop we have to strongly consider Zodiac was most likely a cop as well. It can’t be a coincidence that he stays a step ahead of LE for so long. There has to be some ties there.

Richard
5/6/2018 12:22:19 am

While it seems the police are given free reign to shoot whoever they want in America and no consequences follow from an equally corrupt justice system, I have seen several cases of police vigorously pursue one of their own for murder or murders committed, to which they have subsequently been convicted for life. The thought has crossed my mind several times of either somebody in law enforcement or having previously been a police officer, hence the vitriol and taunting towards them. Possibly somebody dismissed from the police service. His approach at LHR and BRS could be argued as well planned out, yet his attacks at both Lake Berryessa and Presidio Heights were extremely risky ventures. But I certainly wouldn't rule out his connection to law enforcement in some capacity.

Tom
5/6/2018 06:34:28 am

The first sentence above is indicative of someone influenced by the propaganda arm of the progressive left movement.

Richard
5/6/2018 07:12:19 am

I just like to see justice prevail for everyone Tom, without bias. If somebody breaks the law whether police officer, criminal, rich, poor, black or white, they should receive equal justice. But you and I know Tom, this isn't the case. I don't label myself left, right or centrist- just fairness for everyone in society. But I'm realistic to know based on thousands of years of human history, this has and never will exist.

Tom
5/6/2018 06:24:44 pm

Me too. That was not the point you made earlier aimed at the police.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/5/2018 05:41:04 pm

In the early seventies,if we took a school exam,involving Biology,we were encouraged to mention ''Deoxyribonucleic acid'' in any answer,to impress the examiners.Not that we really knew what it meant.And,there was no abbreviation established.

One can imagine,therefore that Zodiac would be thinking about avoiding fingerprints.....but little else of himself [?].

As I have given some reference before,this recent report,and claim,by Detective Poyser of the Vallejo,sounds ''fishy'',at the very least.

Apart from the important service of day to day policing,to the public,what do agencies,like the Vallejo Police Department,exist for ? Surely,the answer is to serve the needs of CA DOJ,in terms of information garnered on crimes,so that the CA DOJ,may consider public prosecutions,and deliver justice to the people.

To cut to the chase,it is the CA DOJ who should have sanctioned these envelopes,being tested for DNA.And indeed,should have had custody of the envelopes,and not the Vallejo Police.

The only solution to this ''protocol conundrum'',is that the CA DOJ have asked the Vallejo Police to claim,themselves,that they,the Vallejo Police,have come to this decision of sending the envelopes off to a Lab,for testing.

What should have happened was that the CA DOJ,would have asked this service of the FBI,and the testing taking place,at Quantico.....probably without the general public,being any the wiser,on any aspect,to this request.

Any further suggestions,as to the ''real story'',behind this claim from Detective Poyser,would be gratefully received.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/5/2018 05:54:46 pm

Naturally,my inclinations are that,this is just a publicity stunt,by the CA DOJ,that they,the CA DOJ,are ''really on top of things'' with regard to the case of the Zodiac Killer.

And merely using Detective Poyser and the Vallejo Police,as their ''facilitators''.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/5/2018 06:54:04 pm

Perhaps,in light of perceived optimism engendered by the arrest of the EAR/GSK,the Police Forces in the Bay Area,are concerned about being inundated with requests and inquiries,from the bereaved of victims of the Zodiac [?].

Hence,this ''story'' about two envelopes,is designed to show,a sense of purpose and recognition,with the Zodiac case [?].

However,there is an underlying 'cynicism' [?].That being that the story's purpose is actually just designed to keep people,from bothering the cops.

Judith
5/5/2018 08:59:45 pm

My concern is that he did not lick the stamps or envelopes. Peter's mother kept the small glass dish with the sponge by the telephone. When I first married him and went to lick a postage stamp he yelled at me and said never lick a stamp! Some crap about how that is the way the enemy will poison us.
He took Criminal Justice at San Jose State for one year learning law enforcement techniques. Could they get touch DNA off the letters? Maybe. Tahoe once pointed out that it looks as though someone had to continually touch a felt-tip pen to their tongue in order to keep the ink visible enough in the Zodiac letters. They should cut out the felt-tip printing and test it. Good Lord, there has to be something with DNA on it that can be matched to another item with the same DNA. Personally I think all hell has broken loose on many unsolved crimes in California.

Shawn
5/6/2018 06:49:18 am

It was well known by many familiar with police forensics there were test for saliva already in use in the 1960s.

In Graysmith book he claims the police test for Saliva back then but found none.

Tom
5/6/2018 06:56:48 pm

I wonder if the saliva test was not about DNA, but for some other type of marker. Mr X would have been familiar with that process because it was used on race horses. It was probably used to check for substances present.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/6/2018 04:15:09 am

It is certainly possible,Judith,that Zodiac took to a habit of wetting his stamps and envelope seals,by other means.

It's not as if the taste of ''gum of Arabic'',was particularly pleasant,and has probably,latter day,acquired a mint flavour or otherwise.

If Zodiac ''did not lick'',by habit,I'm sure that there would be occasions,where he would lick,without thinking.A hastily prepared letter,such as the one following Paul Stine's murder,for instance.

The real point,I believe is that,with the sheer quantity of correspondences,representing Zodiac's compulsion to the written word,there is bound to be many available DNA sources.

In addition,and as Richard has alluded to,previous DNA techniques,should have been robust enough,for some successful samples.

The question now,I would suggest is,is that are there enough sources left,with his original correspondences,in order to glean possibly even more forensics evidence,with known more sophisticated techniques,developed.

Carl Karas link
5/6/2018 09:59:49 am

What if the the same DNA check that gave up the (alleged still at this point) Golden State Killer could solve the Zodiac? This question has been asked on national news here in the past few days, by CBS and other networks. Your blog is timely Richard. But the legal issue with regard to the DNA search is not just the familial aspect. Sacramento apparently used genealogy websites to find 'the needle in the haystack'. These sites, for example Ancestry.com, or 23andMe, where I have submitted my own DNA, have promised that client data will be protected. It was revealed in interviews with the Sacramento DA this week. She has stated that she is aware of the problem and that they expect a rocky road ahead in the courts. As much as I'm heartened by the discovery of this horrible murderer and hopeful for a solution to Zodiac, I'm concerned that my DNA being searched by law enforcement in this way could really do a number on my own civil rights. It's going to be interesting to watch how this unfolds as I think it may be a first case of its kind and will affect the future of forensic investigation. Are we now hurtling towards Brave New World and/or 1984?

Richard
5/6/2018 12:09:13 pm

I may be wrong, but right to privacy is not necessarily covered by law such as uploaded data voluntarily submitted. The right to privacy may be honoured by these websites unless trumped by a legal process. The rights to privacy varies around the world, so I am not exactly sure of the law in America. Ancestry.com has previously released information and "turned over one person's data for an investigation into the murder and rape of an 18-year-old woman in Idaho Falls, Idaho. 23andme has received four other court orders but persuaded investigators to withdraw the requests."
Nearly two decades after 18-year-old Angie Dodge was brutally murdered in her Idaho Falls, Idaho, apartment, police were still hunting for the killer who left his DNA at the crime scene, while a man who did not match the DNA was serving a 30-year sentence for participating in the crime.

In 2014, police took a new and very controversial approach to try to find a match to that DNA. They searched a public DNA database owned by Ancestry.com, hoping to find someone related to Angie's killer. They got a close enough match to make them think they had found the killer's family tree – and there they found what they believed to be their man: a young New Orleans filmmaker who happened to have produced a short film about a girl's brutal death..

https://mashable.com/2016/03/26/law-enforcement-dna-databases/#CN0JdV9fEgq0

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-dna-of-a-killer-who-murdered-idaho-teen-angie-dodge/

Shawn
6/8/2018 05:15:02 am

It is what it is....

Tom Voigt Posted yesterday....

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/june-7-dna-update-t8103.html

***************************

From my law enforcement source:

A full DNA profile can now be obtained from a small hair such as found on the back of the Zodiac stamp from 2002. The amazing breakthrough came from anthropology research.

Excited yet ???

Richard
6/8/2018 07:51:39 am

My understanding of the hair discovered on the back of the Stine stamp, is that it contained no hair root, and therefore no nuclear DNA. This being the case, only mitochondrial DNA can be found in a hair shaft, such as was the ones recovered from Cheri Jo Bates' thumb. This result would allow the eliminating of suspects but not identifying A suspect. So, nothing in the case has changed.
Where is the source of this information claimed by Tom Voigt and where are the scientific papers that shows a full DNA profile can be achieved with a hair shaft. If the hair sample on the Stine stamp was absent of a root, or accompanying biological cells, without nuclear DNA, a full DNA profile cannot be realized.

Tom
5/6/2018 07:01:16 pm

We are already there. Do you really think that your phone calls, internet activity and everything else is actually private? Nothing is secure. We only are aware of what is occasionally reported.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/6/2018 10:57:04 am

Absolutely pertinent points,Carl.A few of us were discussing this very subject,a couple of Richard's articles,back.

With websites,such as Ancestry.com ,there are stated,legitimate conditions of usage.Mr.Holes would have known that he should only submit samples,for which he held permission of use.

For the,seemingly,enormous quantity of samples that he,Mr.Holes,was willing to submit for testing,and pay for,it appears unlikely that he obtained these permissions.

So,on the surface,as a sleuth narrowing the culprit candidates down,it so far seems that Mr.Holes acted illegally.

And, DeAngelo's defence team aren't going to miss a trick.

A tough prosecution,ahead,perhaps [?].

Carl Karas link
5/6/2018 12:50:05 pm

Thanks, Richard and Rubislaw. I wasn't aware of the 2014 case. Intriguing because I lived in New Orleans for 2 years before evacuating in 05. Also, the story reminds me of the CJB library guy. I think this case will prove to be more high profile and will spark a debate in which the law will evolve, possibly at the Supreme Court level here. The other thing that puts it under the microscope is the Cambridge Analytica / Facebook data scandal of course, which has put both our countries on alert. I'm betting this trial will be front and center for awhile. The DA, Anne Marie Schubert, is also under scrutiny nationwide for how she's handling the shooting of an unarmed black man, Stephon Clark, in her jurisdiction. The Golden State Killer Case is now tied to two very current US crises, rascism and data security- three if you include police reform. The media is keeping the EAR - cop connection on the down low...but that may change

BB
5/6/2018 01:20:18 pm

I hate to tell you this guys, but we don't have any civil rights. There is the a little thing called the Patriot Act that took them all away. They don't need probable cause to arrest or even a conviction to hold you indefinitely. And you have no right to appeal as they have for over 16 years now suspended habeas corpus. They are saying that they are watching out for your rights while you are under surveillance. The excuse is that it is for your own good. We are living in 1984 this is a Brave New World. Our rights were killed on October 23, 2001, when Republican Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner introduced H.R. 3162 incorporating provisions from a previously sponsored House bill and a Senate bill also introduced earlier in the month. The next day, the Act passed the House 357 to 66 with Democrats comprising the overwhelming portion of dissent. The three Republicans voting 'no' were Robert Ney of Ohio, Butch Otter of Idaho and Ron Paul of Texas. On October 25, the Act passed the Senate by 98 to 1, the only dissident being Russ Feingold of Wisconsin.From Wikipedia.

On May 14, 2015, Feingold announced his candidacy for his old Senate seat in 2016. He was defeated by Republican Ron Johnson.

In the end there were no WMD's. And the war was for not. It was all proven to be based on falsified CIA data.

John
5/6/2018 01:20:27 pm

I hope they get some usable DNA, but I doubt it. I have little faith that the evidence was properly stored throughout the years. We'll wait and see. I do believe,though,the Zodiac licked his own stamps. DNA didn't become popular until the late 70's early 80's, so i doubt Zodiac knew anything about DNA in 1968-74.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/6/2018 02:59:06 pm

Yes,John...the likelihood that DNA wouldn't have been,part of Zodiac's considerations for incrimination.

''We'' know that palm prints,fingerprints and hair samples have been found.But when it comes to DNA,the information has tended to be ''second hand'' and unreliable [?].

I believe that ''they'' do have some...but would wish for more,in order to have greater choices,when or if,putting a prosecution case together.

As I have intimated,albeit speculatively perhaps,there are potential opportunities ''further afield'',which could bring linking evidence to the Bay Area crimes,into play.

It depends what Zodiac was up to,after the early seventies....but there is now some ''judiciary'' evidence,that they are attempting to track a ''potential him''.

Returning to the subject of DNA....if the two 1990 correspondences are the work of the Zodiac,he must have started to become aware of the potential for incrimination,by then [?].

But he also would have known that they hadn't felt his collar,up to that point.Though it does seem unlikely that he was actually ''never'' interviewed.Probably,albeit briefly,on more than one occasion [?].

Richard
5/6/2018 03:15:53 pm

That is correct Rubislaw, Alec Jeffreys developed DNA profiling in 1985, so although Zodiac didn't likely get wind of these initial breakthroughs, it would have hit America soon after, especially considering it was the biggest breakthrough in crime fighting in 80 years- possibly of all time. In 1988 Timothy Spencer became the first serial killer convicted using DNA evidence in the USA. David Vasquez being the first exonerated in America. So, it may be possible if Zodiac was well read, as we believe he was, to avoid licking the stamps from 1986 onward. But certainly by 1990, if any of these communications were Zodiac.

Carl Karas link
5/6/2018 04:07:27 pm

May seem like I'm quibbling but I actually think that law enforcement is going to use these genealogy sites to push through and solve the case those year, inspired by the GSK identification. I now have all my suspects lined up and I believe there were 4 people involved. But I think the DNA of the mastermind / letter- writer will be found and will explain the whole deal. The answer lies in 'KM' and so Richard, you'll be seen to have played a major role in unraveling the mess. Turns out I was aware of that 2014 case. It involved false confessions and the New Orleans filmmaker identified thru a 35 out of 36 point DNA match thru Ancestry was not the guy. I had seen a doc on the case. I believe the cops had a court order for Ancestry.com but even so it shows there can be complications with familial DNA, regardless of the method used to obtain it

Tom
5/7/2018 07:02:01 am

It does seem likely that more than one person was involved. This might start to get interesting. All of the speculation on the Ferrin murder seems to unlink it to the LB attack and Paul Stine. Hopefully we will hear something sooner rather than later.

Rubislaw 32 link
5/7/2018 09:38:21 am

An interesting thought,Tom,that there was more than one Zodiac.

Carl,obviously believes so.And he is not alone.

I would suggest that,judging by the content of the FBI Files,the FBI believed that they were looking for one man,''armed and dangerous''.

But there is one correspondence,to date unauthenticated,where a purported Zodiac,claims that he is in cohorts with a man he calls ''Byson''.Judging from the rest of this correspondence's content,it appears likely that ''Byson'' is ''Bay's son'',with the ''Bay'' pronounced,as in ''Bayou''.

Personally,I am not convinced of there being more than one Zodiac,but remain open to a possible ''sometime'' partnership.I think that the Benicia High School note,as referred above,is genuine Zodiac...but a ruse on having a partner.

I believe that we would have had more feedback,from Law Enforcement,in general,if they believed that there was more than one Zodiac.

But,the notion could explain a number of aspects to the case,that can appear confusing.

BB
5/7/2018 10:58:29 am

The Patriot Act is counter to American freedom, and needs to be repealed. There's no good reason for the government to access private information unless there is specific and real probable cause as stated in the Constitution. I think the Framers wrote those rights for a reason.

Rubislaw32 - I agree with you so much of the time it is like I'm preaching to the choir, but I got to say I thought that your theory leaned toward their being a conspiracy (there being two or more in cahoots). It sounds like you may be modifying some with your (I am not convinced of there being more than one Zodiac) comment.

I have obviously changed my thinking several times so I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that. In fact this is a process of discovery. Studying one thing at a time gets me to lean that way. Then I start down another path and I start to lean the other way.

One reason that you can deduce there being a conspiracy is that there has to be a separate person to handle the envelopes. Somewhere along the way someone is stuffing the envelope then wetting the lid, then closing it, then addressing, then wetting the stamp, then placing on the envelope, then placing it in the mail box. That is a lot of
handling to not leave a trace of prints or saliva or something tyeing one to said envelope. For a sloppy writer to manage all that. Is a major stretch. And this is just one leap of faith required for the lone perp theory. Peace

Rubislaw 32 link
5/7/2018 12:58:16 pm

Some [genuinely] fascinating thoughts from you,BB,on this subject.

The longer one studies the case,the more one can not necessarily be sure about anything [!].

I hold my hands up,in this respect.

But ''core'' to my belief is that ''one Zodiac'' set out to persecute another man [William Joseph Grant],for personal reasons.And this vendetta had ''mushroom'' consequences,that even ''Zodiac'' couldn't imagine,at the outset.

Setting that aside,we look at the social and political circumstances,during this terror reign of Zodiac,for California,not least the U.S.,as a whole.

The establishment came to the conclusion that young people in general,and minority factions in particular,were rising up,against a falsely perceived stable and happy country.

Hence,extreme and brutal measures,that only fanned the flames of discontent.So,it ts conceivable that the ''phenomenon'' of Zodiac was engineered by counter subversive organisations,like branches of the FBI and CIA.

I am personally,at loggerheads ''by default'',with a branch of the FBI,at the moment,and may have to consider taking the matter further.But,with whom ? Even the press appear to ''wet their knickers'' over the thought of engagement with organisations that they don't fully understand.

All it really is is cipher work,encrypted by a criminal.But the content of the decryption,points to the Black Panther movement,and the purported actions of COINTELPRO.

In essence,a historical embarrassment to the FBI.

Part of the very organisation,that held jurisdiction on the case of the Zodiac Killer.

It can all get confusing .

BB
5/7/2018 04:14:44 pm

You got guts 32
I am truly impressed

Rubislaw 32 link
5/7/2018 04:50:27 pm

Thanks for the complement,BB.

I gave up on my well being,a while back.

After ratting on an Inspector of Constabulary,who was lying to poiticians,I got accused of harbouring illegal immigrants.

Last year,when I moved flats,I got a visit from a local cop,within 12 hours,''almost'' accusing me of stealing bicycles from elderly pensioners,that wouldn't be able to manage a zimmerframe.

Last Christmas I accused a judge of cowering behind closed,in the wake of a police scandal,that he was partly responsible for.I only received an early income tax demand,for that one.

In the end,one becomes impervious,to the establishment bullies [?].

James
5/27/2018 03:20:34 pm

Hello Richard,
Do you think they can put the 2002 partial dna profile into gedmatch or a similar ancestral site and get a close match to a relative of whoever licked the stamp? And two, do you think the dna is to degraded to get something now with the most recent testing as of a few weeks ago? And will this case be solved?

Richard
6/8/2018 07:38:58 am

1. Not with a partial 2. Whether the DNA is viable depends on how it was stored. If stored correctly, then with multiple letters available, it should be possible. Will this case be solved? No, I don't think so- and even if it was, I believe the Zodiac is long dead.


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