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Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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THE SEARCH FOR DONNA LASS

5/1/2014

 
On the 22nd March 1971, a postcard landed at the offices of the San Francisco Chronicle, that has become widely known as the 'Pines' card. It was this correspondence in particular that caught the eye of police officer Harvey Hines, who after extensive investigative work became utterly convinced Lawrence Kane was the most likely candidate for the five Zodiac murders, committed from December 20th 1968 to October 11th 1969. Although the Zodiac Killer's reign of terror appeared brief, Harvey Hines was convinced that it may have been a lot longer, in that, where Lawrence Kane moved, murder would soon follow. He noticed certain locations and timelines that spiked his interest, placing Lawrence Kane to the forefront of his focus and started nigh on three decades of dedication to unearthing the truth. He provided a intriguing case against his suspect permeated by a solid case history, although it appears that much of it fell on deaf ears as Lawrence Kane was relegated to the fringe of the Zodiac suspect list.   
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It was the hunt for missing nurse Donna Ann Lass that became a near obsession for Harvey Hines, becoming closely allied to the family members of the young 25-year-old as he searched undaunted for a break in the case. He has to be commended for his devotion in and out of police hours, when many others seemed to have lost hope.
The story began when the Zodiac Killer turned into the isolated turnout of Lake Herman Road on December 20th 1968 and appeared to have ended when the murderer exited the taxicab of Paul Stine on October 11th 1969 and disappeared, heading north into the darkness of Cherry Street towards the Presidio. But in fact the story was only just beginning.

After the murder of Paul Stine the killer headed towards the Julius Khan Playground, but whether he actually ended up there, as he alluded to in his October 13th 1969 letter to the San Francisco Chronicle, has been the topic of much debate. Donna Lass worked in the Presidio at the Letterman General Hospital and lived at 4122 Balboa Street, San Francisco. The murderer of Paul Stine, based on the taxicab meter reading, was believed to have flagged down the taxicab in the theater district, near the corner of Mason and Geary Street, and an area situated less than a quarter of a mile from the Lawrence Kane residence at 217 Eddy Street. For all these relevant locations, click here for Google Maps. 

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In 1970 both Donna Lass and Lawrence Kane moved to South Lake Tahoe, where Donna Lass was employed at the Sahara Tahoe Hotel & Casino as a nurse. According to Harvey Hines, Lawrence Kane worked for Alan Dorfman selling Arizona real estate. His office was situated just down the hallway from the area where Donna Lass was stationed. Three months later, everything changed. 

On September 6th 1970 Donna Lass vanished after her shift at the Sahara Tahoe Hotel, and now nearly half a century later we are no nearer to discovering the truth as to her movements that fateful morning. Six and a half months later, the disputed 'Pines' card arrived at the San Francisco Chronicle inferring a link to the Donna Lass disappearance, and the story gained momentum once again. Many Zodiac researchers have questioned the connection between the Donna Lass disappearance and the Zodiac Killer, and indeed, if Lawrence Kane ever worked at the Stateline, Nevada casino.  
But this may be about to change, due to the persistent work of Zodiac enthusiast Alex Lewis (Welsh Chappie), an avid member of the ZodiacKillerSite forum. On Monday April 7th 2014, after multiple Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests, he finally received the information he had been searching for. The United States Department of Justice sent him some valuable information regarding his prime suspect Lawrence Kane, including a full and complete arrest sheet, with a lot more besides. (See foot of page for two examples). Alex Lewis, as well as contributing to the popular ZodiacKillerSite forum, has dedicated many hours compiling extensive information on his favorite suspect Lawrence Kane. His comprehensive Wordpress site can be viewed here. These interesting findings have also generated a discussion thread on the ZodiacKillerSite forum; so to contribute your thoughts please visit the topic here.  htttp://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1536.

Harvey Hines remained undeterred, when many others had given up hope - and even though the search for Donna Lass has hit many dead ends in the intervening years, the hope that was held by Harvey Hines still lives on.   
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Robin Smith
1/29/2015 12:06:35 am

Donna Lass went missing from???...well this is the prevailing problem!!

The Sahara Tahoe is in Stateline Nevada, Douglas County, Nevada. Donna lived the entire summer of 1970 with Ann and Larry Lowe in a motel less than a block from the Ca/Nv Stateline at 4054 Lake Tahoe Blvd(Hwy 50).

The City of South Lake Tahoe, which was incorporated in 1965, has N0 record of what "establishment" was located at this address in 1970.

However, 4054 Lake Tahoe Blvd is directly across the street (Hwy 50) from the STARDUST Motel 4061 Lake Tahoe Blvd (Hwy50)

Neither State, California and Nevada, investigated this missing person and still do N0t!

In MY opinion, too many LOCAL people "magnates" were involved...very messy and corrupt. Too long of a story for this post but I have stated some of the facts at Alex Lewis' site Lawrence Kane Zodiac Killer.com

I lived here in the "day", I was at the SAHARA TAHOE and knew personally the 'magnates' involved Sep 6, 1970.

I'm Back:)

Robin Smith
1/29/2015 01:42:19 am

For example:
Many of these Z sites say that Harvey Hines is a liar about Larry Kane being at the SAHARA when Donna went missing.

One of the Z site posters went to a 1970's reunion at The Sahara last year, year before N0w... organized by the Mayor of South Lake Tahoe, who worked at the SAHARA in the 'day'...the Mayor was there and he told the inquiring poster that YES in FACT Larry Kane was there and did work next to Donna.

I N0ticed that this FACT was N0t subsequently reported on the Z site so I (ASS U ME) that this web site person thinks the Mayor of the City of South Lake Tahoe, Ca is a LIAR.

sandy betts link
9/4/2015 07:37:16 pm

I am the person who went to the reunion at Lake Tahoe and spoke to the people who knew Larry Kane and Donna Lass. They worked there at the same time, it was confirmed. The people who have their own suspects, aren't going to believe Kane is the best suspect in the Donna Lass case, no matter what. Too bad for them.

Alex Lewis link
11/7/2015 11:16:14 am

"For example:
Many of these Z sites say that Harvey Hines is a liar about Larry Kane being at the SAHARA when Donna went missing."

And this is why you have to love these sites that claim Harvey is a liar, sites we shall not name that were not created by a person named Tom Void. Mr Void Blasts "Hines is a liar!" Why is that Mr Void, got any examples or evidence? "Yes, well, errmmm, No. Maybe......Come back and ask me next week!"

HH opens His 120 page report by declaring "My Name is Harvey C. Hines. I am a police officer for the City of Escalon, CA and have been in Law Enforcement since 1972."
Now not only would Void have you dismiss this as nothing of any use to determine His credibility but also fully expect you to accept that if we compare this source to His own suspects Source, called Blane Blane AKA GoldCatcher, His source is to be taken as more credible.....A man who refused to tell you His name or have His face on camera and who Capt. Ken Narlow described as a fantasist and Kook, over that of a sworn Police Officer who's never hid behind Aliases nor hid his face from a camera,

I do believe that Tom Void, if you were given the choice to believe Him at His word or the physical evidence that opposed Him and His word, Would fully expect you to believe Him as correct and the unchallengeable physical evidence wrong because after all, 'He' is Tommy Void.

Robin Smith
1/30/2015 02:13:54 am

P.S. Bill Cosby was drugging and raping women here at Lake Tahoe
in the 60's and 70's.
Just a reminder...There is N0 Statute of Limitations on Murder

Angela Luster
5/3/2016 11:43:22 pm

That's true.

Marcos
5/14/2016 12:16:29 am

It's seems to me that this man seen Donna lass at the presidio general hospital at ever since then stalked her

Bill
9/2/2016 05:49:03 am

I think so also Donna worked at the Presidio just 2000 ft from the paul stine murder,, no coincidence

Tahoedirt link
12/12/2017 05:46:24 pm

Robin
Just going over some old posts-,4054 LT Blvd, as you probably know-That whole several block long area was demolished for Heavenly Village. I worked 3 years at the Bella Union at 4090, next door to the Red Carpet Inn motel- Everything from Cecil's Mkt to Harrahs was torn out. Across the street the Stardust was turned into a timeshare ala McCarthy.
Dave

Robin Smith
1/29/2015 05:00:42 am

Donna Lass knew Darlene Ferrin and Larry Kane and was kNown to fly to and from Riverside, Ca on weekends with Robert E Hunter Jr and Kane.

Robert E Hunter Jr was a founding partner in ALPINE MEADOWS....next to SQUAW VALLEY,Ca ...just a few minutes by boat across the Lake(TAHOE) to the SAHARA.

Donna was involved with Robert E Hunter Jr and his father, as she was employed at Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara, Ca for 2 yrs before moving to SF, Ca.

Donna then worked at Letterman Hospital/Presidio for a couple of months...leaving Letterman for Lake Tahoe at the same time as Kane, who was living in SF, Ca. Just after the Z murders of Stine and Ferrin.

Stine knew Hunter Jr, Kane and Ferrin well and reportedly had 'news worthy' information from Ferrin.

Kane and Donna both went to work at the SAHARA.

Robin Smith
3/6/2015 05:45:08 am

The "Thunderbird" was custom built in 1939 for real estate magnate George Whitell.

CasiN0 owner Bill Harrah bought the boat in 1962. Harrah loved fast boats and replaced the original engines with two Allison aircraft engines boosting its top speed from 45-70 mph.

He used the boat to entertain celebrities, entertainers and politicians who frequented his casiN0 in Stateline, Nevada, including Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr, Bill Cosby and Presidents Ford and Clinton.

Harrah called her, "his 70mph cocktail lounge."

www.thunderbirdtahoe.org Bill Watson

sandy betts link
9/4/2015 07:46:43 pm

There is no proof that Darlene knew Kane or Paul Stine. We proved that Stine wasn't a cab driver until after Darlene was killed. It was said that Darlene was given rides by Stine in his cab. There is also no proof that Donna knew Robt Hunter Jr., Hunter Sr yes. Absolutely no proof Donna went with Hunter and Kane to Riverside. No proof that Hunter knew Kane. If you can prove other wise, I would like to see it. But thank you for your input anyway. Some of what you have been told is true.

Robin Smith
9/5/2015 12:34:29 pm

Sandy...from ZODIACKILLER.COMMESSAGEBOARD:OTHER POSSIBLE VICTIMS:DONNA LASS Mon June 2, 2003

Sandy...."Not long ago I looked at Darlene's phone book, it seems she had an interest in that area. I checked a number she had and it was (916) 426-3651 it was a place called Sugar Bowl in NORDEN, she also had another ski resort, ALPINE MEADOWS...

Donna was connected to Darlene:)

Alex Lewis
9/7/2015 06:14:58 am

Hey Sandy, how are you? Hope all is ok.

In regards to this mysterious rich man/men rumour that Donna was said to have gone on trips with, there is a reference in the full Hines report that may or may not shed some light on this whole topic.

Hines notes in his report the following: Lass employed at Letterman from June of 69 to Sept. of 1970.
Hines goes to the Sahara Tahoe and is given access to Donna's history and is shown Donna's Application form applying for the position that was submitted by Her on May 25th of 1970.(Again, for thoes who wish to suggest Harvey never visited the Sahara Tahoe, then they need to explain how it is He knows the exact date she applied for the job there.)
Prior to both the Letterman position and Sahara Tahoe, Donna worked as a private travelling nurse for a Dr. Frederic Reichert, who passed away shorly before she applies to the Letterman Hospital for employment. This may be, and I stress the word may becuase I don't know and am just theorising, the rich man that Donna accompanied from one place to another as her position, travelling private nurse, would require this.

Robin Smith
9/7/2015 07:45:54 am

Sandy..."We proved that Stine wasn't a cab driver until AFTER Paul Stine was killed."

Can you expound on that? How long was Stine a cab driver then?

TY
Robin

Alex Lewis
9/7/2015 10:08:37 am

Again Robin, if Sandy makes a statement like that, I wouldn't think she's just guessing or making it up out of thin air.
When I first started looking into Kane online and was new to this whole z amateur commuity, Sandy helped me a lot and gave me a lot of information and I can state honestly, everything she said could and was always substanciated.
A lot of my own research and the webpage I have on Kane wouldn't be what it is today had it not been for Sandy's help and information. I tried and tried via The FOIA to get the arrest history of Kane and time and time again waited months to get the writter reply from the FBI of "Having searched our central records systems, we have found no responses in relation to your request." Then sandy gave me a posible personal FBI number for Kane, which I added to the FOI request and finally got the 15 pages back with his arrest history.

Again, Sandy's information and character is not something I can or would question, she's been an absolutely brilliant help for me and I have and always will be thankful to her.

Alex Lewis
9/7/2015 10:12:07 am

That is meant to say "Sandys character is something I can speak to as being honest and genuine, and I would not and never have had a reason to question her."

sandy betts link
9/14/2015 06:45:45 pm

Thanks for all your kind words Alex, I am doing fine, still working the case .
Robin I have a copy of Darlene's address book, it was called her address book, but her ex husband Jim has said that it was once his, that Darlene took it.( Darlene didn't ski). Jim her ex, said that a lot of the names in that book were his friends not hers. You can see that it was also used by Dean Ferrin after Darlene was killed, because the dates written in it were long after she had been murdered . So don't place too much on what you read in the address book. If you get a copy of Paul Stine's death certificate it should show you how long he worked for the can company before he was killed. For sure it was after July 4th, according to many other investigators who looked into it. Paul worked insurance before he drove a cab. Ironically I found a Larry Kane also had worked for an insurance company in SF. Not sure if he was the correct Kane or not. Driving the cab was to help Paul pay for collage. It is also said that he was going to work for the SF chronical.Paul Stine's sister has been in the chat room at Zkiller.com . She told us a lot about Paul and her other brother Joe. Alex is correct I never make assumptions, if I don't know something is for sure the truth, I will state that it is something I believe, or think might be true. Darlene didn't know Donna, Betty Lou, Cecilia Shepard, Cheri Jo Bates or Paul Stine. At least there is no proof she knew any of them. Paul lived on Cole street before he moved to Fell. Betty Lou's mother confirmed that Betty Lou never babysat Darlene's baby like Darlene's sister told everyone. She was also the person who said Darlene rode in Stine's cab. That is what made it a project ,to see if that were true or not. I do believe that Darlene is the key to solving this case, but for her sister to say she was connected to every victim is absurd. When someone is caught in a lie , how can you believe anything they say ? It is sad, because things like that only confuses the case worse than it is already. We must stick with the known facts, in order to solve it. It is a solvable case!

Alex Lewis
11/7/2015 03:26:40 pm

Sandy Betts Said: "Thanks for all your kind words Alex,"

Not a problem Sandy, no problem at all and tis my pleasure to state the truth......That'll be Three Hundred Dollars Please. How are we paying today Miss, Credit Card or the preferred 'no paper trail' cash? Hehe.

But to be serious, your obviously correct in that there is no proof Zodiac knew any of the 'Victoms' or had had any sort of prior contact with them in any capacity pre attack. No proof positive No, but there are Circumstantial Evidentiary reasons to at least make an argument for the idea. Such as? Well.....

- Who was Darlene flashing her headlights to after pulling into BRS?

- Donna was a travelling Nurse Aid for Private Paying client's and was the travelling nurse with A wealthy SF resident by the name of Frederic Reichert, Dr Fred Reichert to give Him His formal Title, until He passed away weeks prior to Donna starting work at Letterman. Who knows who she travelled as Nurse Aid for prior to The Good Dr?
- Many dismiss the Pines card as a Hoax citing Zodiac's lack of hand written print to determine authenticity and point to Z never sending post-cards without writing his own message on it but this is clearly false. "There are reports that City pig Cops...." is accepted by the majority.
- FBI Document I have seen doesn't hint at, nor suggest subtly etc, its outright states that it is their opinion (They as in The Agency) there are two letter writers easily distinguishable by the letters tone, style of writing and the content. They say one writer seems aggressive and threatening in what He writes, a tone of anger runs through His statements and this writer, the more He writes the less control He shows over keeping the lines and flow of letters/direction in one neat order vs a 2nd writer who is not angry,doesn't threaten and keeps a orderly neat writing pattern and is far more relaxed, non demanding and even jovial.

lone wolfe
12/2/2015 12:16:57 pm

something is right, the fly and donna meet Zodiac do you remember donna was se it with who for last time.....next kane was Zodiac dommy....like Arthur allen.....and others

Alex Lewis
12/5/2015 02:55:27 pm

Donna and a Fly, eh? That must be why Zodiac off'ed Miss Lass. You can't have Nurses hanging out with blue-bottles disclosing the delicate and classified details of who serial killers were! "What I would give to be a fly on the wall..." is no longer figure of speech! Donna is alleged to have gave them witness statements with any need for them t ease drop from a wall in the same room!

DJ Ritty
10/4/2020 12:13:02 pm

So Donna didn't know darlene? I gotta read further ahead instead of replying to the first post lol Cuz if darlene knew larry and donna and if ala knew darlene could they all have met? I Larry really 'Lee'? Thanks if anyone can answer...

Tahoedirt link
11/22/2017 02:04:33 am

Robin- Never heard about God reunion, but always been interested and personaaly have many coincidental crossings with Z and the case. If you don't mind- What did you do at Sahara- Inwas dealing poker the night Lass dissapeared.

Tahoedirt link
11/22/2017 02:11:54 am

Robin- I meant to say"Sahara Reunion". Not sure how Apple changed it to God ??

Lee
12/9/2017 10:18:24 pm

Can you say where you got all the info re those connections?

DJ Ritty
10/4/2020 12:10:48 pm

So Donna knew Darlene and Larry? If ALA knew Darelene could these two have met? Thanks.

sandy betts link
10/4/2020 12:38:15 pm

DJ Ritty, The answer to your question is there is no proof that Donna knew Darlene. It was said by Harvey Hinds that he was told by Donna's co workers , that Larry Kane was bothering Donna. I went to Lake Tahoe to find anyone who worked there and found out that yes Larry did work there at the same time Donna did and had been asking her out. We do not have any proof that Darlene knew Art Allen.It was assumed that he went to where she worked, so did I, that means nothing.

Robin Smith
1/30/2015 12:32:46 am

Richard L Chartrand, Barney's Casino Stateline Douglas Nevada. Blown to bits Aug 27, 1968

Donna Lass RN, Sahara Tahoe CasiN0, Stateline Douglas Nevada. Goes missing Sep 6, 1970

Dr Charles L Hollingsworth, South Lake Tahoe, Ca, and a regular player at the Sahara Tahoe CasiN0, goes missing Oct 26, 1970

Larry Kane works for Alan Dorfman as real estate salesman down the hall from Donna's nurses station.

D. Beat
2/21/2016 10:23:42 pm

Been reading many comments not sure I want to involve myself. There's was a Robert e. Evens Jr who worked at the sporting good store in alpine meadows. His speed boat blew up in a boat race out side of reno. I think it was a bomb. Hitting the garbage on Washington and maple you find R.H. sponserd the party in memory of him. Also R.H. could of known Kane shit he finance c.I.a. operations. But kane worked at 1255 post st. Jack tarr hotel. There was a jogger that was killed near the palace of legion an honor who worked at 1255 post st. In 1980 she had a t shirt on that said hells accountant Dearlodge Montana. I thought it was a Z murder. Turns out it was a trail side killer john carpenter murder link thru DNA. Zynchronicty. Why does it take for ever to get a full DNA profile on zodiac all those stamps an encalipes. Cover up

Alex link
1/31/2015 05:36:26 am

Robin, I too have seen the claims that "No evidence that Harvey Hines ever visited the Sahara Tahoe to interview Donna's co-workers." The first person I saw make such a comment, was Mr V, CEO & Supreme Leader of ZK.com.
There's no question in my mind that Harvey did just what he said he did & paid a visit to the Sahara Hotel and here's why. Harvey stated that he had in a on-camera interview for 'Case Re-Opened - Zodiac Killer' that, quote: "I went to Tahoe & I questioned the people who worked with Donna Lass & asked them if there was anyone they remember as strange or odd... Without exception, they Named Larry Kane."
Now, Hines made this claim on camera. If it were an outright lie or misleading statement at best, it's almost a certainty that he would get found out because anyone who does a follow up investigation interviewing the co-workers and who asks them did they Tell Detective Hines Larry Kane was odd, the Co-workers, had they never said this to Hines, would reply that they have no Idea what they are talking about & then declare that they Never met or were interviewed by A Det. Hines, and never gave Kane's name to him.
Now that has never happened, and why have none of the co-workers come forward to say Hines is lying? Because Hines is not lying and they can attest to the truth of his claim.

Robin Smith
1/31/2015 09:10:21 am

Alex...Zodiac Killer.com Oct 28, 2014 message board I found a post by

Sandy Betts
DOJ
Posts 1206
Sep 11, 2013
Connie Stevens

"I met the Mayor who knew Larry Kane, so I asked him if it was true that Larry had worked at the same casiN0? He said YES Larry worked there but it was for a short time. The reason I asked was because I read that it was never proven he was there, so it must N0t be true......

I did N0t write down everything on the post but there was also something about Harvey Hines being accused of stealing, misappropriating, $3,000.00 dollars that she did N0t think was true for reasons she posted.

Alex...I LIVE HERE...I KN0W THESE PEOPLE...THEY ARE DEADLY DANGEROUS.
Alex...THEY BLOW PEOPLE UP....THEY PUT PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LAKE....HELLO!!!

Robin Smith
1/31/2015 09:34:25 am

Bill Cosby is a perfect example of what goes on up here....one of his daughters has the name Evin Harrah Cosby.

People want to kN0w why these women have N0t come forward before N0w...the answer for the last 50 years is the same...they are ridiculed. can N0t get a job, are harassed, threatened or dumped in the Lake. That's why...

well A** ****'s!

MAKE MY DAY

Robin Smith
530-541-1155
Discoverlktaho@hotmail.com

Robin Smith
2/1/2015 11:47:00 am

P.S. A person like Larry Kane lived here (Lake Tahoe) for 30 years.
That fact alone tells a lot about this place and what goes on here.

Alex Lewis link
9/12/2015 08:56:36 am

As a quick update to the claim that HH never visited the Sahara Tahoe, as made my Voigt on his site previously, then I would ask how does Harvey know on what date Donna applied for the job there? Harvey states in his report the actual date of her application as May 25 of 1970? Harvey clearly states He knows this because He was shown her application form by the Hotel.

Robin Smith
3/4/2015 03:21:05 am

N0w information about Lawrence Kane has been brought to my attention by one of these contributors that LK was in the club/hotel (lounges were BIG in the day) entertainment business in the mid 1940's.

Donna was kN0wn to have drinks after work and one of the comments made to her family by SAHARA TAHOE hotel employee's reportedly was, "the guy/s in the band kN0w what happened to her.

Robin Smith
3/12/2015 04:55:51 am

Edward Wayne Edwards..one of the Deer Lodge 3 (Bujok/Dryman/Edwards).....was in Leavenworth with Manson and was paroled from Leavenworth in 1967.

Manson Being paroled from Treasure Island March, 1967

He(EWE) became one of the first men who has ever been on the F.B.I.'s 'Ten Most Wanted" list to be paroled back into society and one of the very few men to be paroled from a federal penitentiary for bank robbery the FIRST time up before the parole board.

Since 1968 ewe WAS ALLOWED by his Federal Parole Officer in Ohio to travel the country and appear on TV, radio, churches, Police Academies, law schools claiming to be a former criminal..

EWE, "A woman who behaves foolishly in public, however innocently meant often finds herself in serious trouble. DO N0t visit bars and restaurants alone, and be EXTREMELY careful about drinking with strangers. Cases of attack and murder resulting from new found bar friendships are frequent."

Robin Smith
3/6/2015 02:56:03 am

Delbert Eugene 'del' Webb (May 17, 1899 - July 4, 1974) Wiki

I am N0t going to copy Wiki here...suffice to say, for the purpose of these comments:

Del Webb was a regular at THE SAHARA TAHOE...used to sit at the same bar as Larry Kane and Donna Lass.

Larry Kane was at the Sahara, he was selling Arizona Real Estate for Alan Dorfman and LK knew Del E Webb...we all did.
.
Del Webb built the FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS for BUGSY SIEGEL

Jono
3/7/2015 09:36:51 am

Strange I find that the people that Donna lived with before her disappearance went on holidays that same day and that he had car troubles and borrowed her car.. Modern police initiatives would make the male the number one or two Suspect.

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 01:18:51 am

JoN0

I did N0t kN0w that the Lowe's 'borrowed' Donna's car to go on vacation the day she disappeared!....News to me.

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 01:41:58 am

Donna went missing Sat night/Sun morning...Sat being Sep 5, 1970...Sunday 2:00am being Sep 6.

I would like to kN0w what days off Donna had? I do kN0w that Harrahs provided housing for college students that worked the summer only and then bussed them back to their hometown.

Did the Lowe's possibly work for Harrah's since they apparently had housing right on HWY 50 less than a mile from the SAHARA.

According to reports Donna was N0t the type to spend the entire summer in a motel room with people(one male) she did N0t kN0w WELL, so apparently the Lowes were her friends and as they were leaving Tahoe, summer was over..... thusly Donna needed somewhere else to stay....Monte Verdi Apts.

You say the Lowe's borrowed her car?...it was found at her apt....when was it returned? I also read that the Lowe's extended their Tahoe stay to look for Donna.

The Douglas County Sheriff, Nv and South Lake Tahoe Police Dept, Ca were obviously N0t interested in solving this one!!!!!

When you factor in the disappearance of Dr Charles L Hollingsworth (Oct 26, 1970), who was living just across the Street from her new apt, a regular gambler at the SAHARA, single, 39yrs old and very handsome....wellllll...hmmmm

Something very fishy all round here but then that's N0t news is it?

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 01:45:18 am

P.S. I tried to open your e-mail but my machine said N0...I'' also restricted about where I can send stuf:( try again or call me if you need to

sandy betts link
9/4/2015 08:02:46 pm

The Lowe's owned a real-estate company on Hyw 50 at State Line, that was where they also lived with Donna until she moved. If they barrowed her car, why would they return it to her apt. the night she went missing? She used her car the day before, to move from where she was living to her new apt. If they barrowed her car , it would have been for a couple of hours ?

Tahoedirt link
11/22/2017 09:16:51 pm

In the 60's Harrahs, Harveys and Sahara as a joint mission would recruit kids from 2-3 schools down south or back east. Carolina and Bama kids usually. BTW, Tommy from Ciera Steakhouse was one of the first. They'd usually put 4 girls or boys in a 2 bedroom apartment- Down Kahle or Pioneer Trail as I remember.

Jono
3/8/2015 03:43:05 am

I believe they borrowed the car the day before. They went on holidays the day she disappeared, after getting the car fixed. This was on one of the web sites. So it's unsubstantiated. Seems no one knows much about the Lowes. I think Annemarie and Donna worked together at the cottage hospital.

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 04:14:56 am

One of my N0tes says that a nurse at Cottage Hospital was suspected of stealing drugs and that Donna was asked to watch her and see...the suspected nurse was subsequently discharged as a result of Donna's observations. aN0ther hmmmm as her(Donna's) stint at Letterman Hosp at the Presidio was very short term...a couple of months...that's N0t right for her previous employment history.

Donna's friend Joanne G?..the one supposed to meet Donna at the Sahara the night she disappeared was N0t thoroughly questioned either as far as my N0tes show....the investigation should start with the LE agencies involved here and that necessarily includes the F.B.I...UH OH!!!! them!!!

Z0DIAC: COS, MANSON AND THE MOB

Jono
3/8/2015 04:20:08 am

Is there any way you can find out the occupations of the lowes

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 04:31:48 am

I will continue to dig through my N0tes, somewhere I think it has been said that Larry Lowe passed...I will try to find that N0te.

You said you think Annemarie worked at Cottage Hosp with Donna so medical field? I am continuing the search but the Cottage Hosp/Letterman Hosp /Presidio/Stine/Ferrin

Robert E Hunter Jr, Larry Kane connection can N0t be ignored as Z made a point of seeing to that, Z or an imposter Z...that's exactly why THEY can N0t shake this off...

THEY tried to remove Donna from the circle but it's N0t going away...Bruce Davis and Nancy Pitman Davis...yep they were reportedly married by the time Donna went missing....

Robin Smith
3/12/2015 05:16:00 am

Bruce Davis and Nancy Pitman were married 4-20-1970...

uh oh....4-20-1970 is the date Dr Charles L Hollingsworth DIVORCE was final...

uh oh....4-20-1970 is the date Zodiac letter with bomb plans sent to Chronicle

sandy betts link
6/24/2015 10:24:32 am

The lowe's owned a real estate company at State line, Lake Tahoe. Why on earth would they need to extend there time in Lake Tahoe when they were living there ? Where did the information come from about Darlene knowing Donna Lass ? Was it the same person who said Darlene knew Paul Stine ,Cheri Jo Bates, Cecelia Shepard and Betty Lou Jensen ? That was proven not to be true.So I doubt very much that knew Darlene knew Donna.The person making those claims wanted to involve Darlene with every known Zodiac victim. However ,I do believe that Darlene's murder is the key to solving the Zodiac case.

Robin Smith
6/25/2015 07:26:19 pm

The Lowe's owned a real estate company!! ! Well Jono that answers your question about the Lowe's occupations! TY Sandy.

Larry Kane was proven N0t to be at the Sahara until I read a post of your Sandy!...TY again:)

I always knew Larry Kane was here as I was here, therefore, people that were insisting that he was N0t here are suspicious to me.

Larry Kane has been connected to Darlene in many of the posts I've read some by people that claim to have kN0wn Darlene personally
.
The real estate thing with the Lowe's just adds fuel to the fire with Kane as he was involved with Bob Maloff,and George Karadanis(from Martinez). Let's N0t leave Allen Dorfman out of this either.

Plenty of skanky Stuf going on with this crew!!! and all those fingers pointing to Robert E Hunter's Sr and Jr. Too much to go on about here however, I've posted a lot between Richard Grinell and Alex Lewis.

Robin Smith
9/4/2015 02:03:52 am

Sandy

I just saw an old post in one of my notebooks and I was wondering if you could confirm it...an ex Vallejo cop was told by Darlene that a "hippy" was following her and she was afraid of him....

"The only time I saw KANE in long hair, was when he was in drag. Yes I saw him twice in drag!...

KANE IN DRAG?...Whoaaa and a whole new dimension is added to this boring guy!!!

Robin Smith
9/4/2015 09:07:14 am

The Lowe's were going on VACATION.......oh...that's what...they were not leaving town but to go on vacation...still trying to figure out the LOWES here. Looks like another LOCAL problem:)

Robin Smith
9/4/2015 10:00:00 pm

Sandy...TY for your help!!...one more thing...did you see KANE in drag??...twice!!

TY again for your help

Robin Smith
9/5/2015 12:51:51 pm

Sandy...ZODIACKILLER.COMMESSAGEBOARD:OTHERPOSSIBLEVICTIMS:DONNA LASS Oct 1, 2003

Sandy...."Thanks for the info on KANE. Now I can focus on my RH as the licker of the stamps, and perhaps as the writer. I can't let KANE off as a killer who I know is connected to RH, because I have seen the two of them together, one other person who escaped being killed by him also saw the two of them together. Thanks again Howard!!"

Is the RH Hunter Jr? most certainly not Sr!

Jono
3/8/2015 04:30:55 am

The Sharp/Gaul letter
Two lines of dripping blood
Right hand line has what appears to be letters in it. It is not at first obvious, but nor it should be.
The first two are L and A the last is a Y quite clear they are, and in between if you look closely you can see two R's joined. It reads LARRY. Maybe your larry Caine?

Robin Smith
3/8/2015 04:43:19 am

Have you checked out Alex Lewis' site? The Lawrence Kane- Zodiac Killer has all the arrests, names and available history...this creep was definitely involved with Donna/DarleneFerrin/Robert Hunter Jr./Stine

N0w new (to me) info about Klien/Kaye/Kane/Cane has surfaced about his involvement with the MOB, Siniatra and his child star aspirations. Lotsa child stars involved here.....

1920's born WWll J Edgar Hoover Mob bunch that spawned the 1940's born Manson mess bunch

sandy betts link
9/4/2015 08:13:14 pm

Robbin, I would like to reply to your question about the Ex Vallejo cop that Darlene told about the hippie she was afraid of. That cop was my boyfriend Buzz Gordon. It was true that she told him that. You mentioned Kane in drag ? Funny my suspect looks a lot like Kane and I saw my suspect in drag a few times. My suspect isn't Kane though.

Robin Smith
9/13/2015 08:42:33 am

Sandy,

You said in a previous post here that you saw KANE with your suspect RH.

Are you able to disclose RH's true name...I am interested because you say you saw KANE with this RH, who I get the impression is the one you saw in drag twice.

TY
Robin

Robin Smith
3/14/2015 04:01:20 am

Doreen Gaul/James Sharp were Scientology students and Doreen apparently haD "CLEAR" status....

N0 doubt in my mind that she was a "Z" as L Ron Hubbard and Anton LaVey figure in my theory...

ZODIAC: COS, MANSON AND THE MOB

Jono
3/14/2015 10:59:45 am

Have a look at that letter that drips of Z .. Right hand line running down it spells out LARRY.. Well concealed but easy to see when told about it ...No doubt it says larry. The rs are the tricky bit.

Robin Smith
3/14/2015 06:44:00 pm

JoN0

First I need to find a copy of this letter and then hope it's CLEAR enough to read.

I'll be back:)

Robin Smith
3/14/2015 07:27:19 pm

"The Zodiac Manson Connection" by Howard Davis pg 207,
shows this letter aaand well it's possible...along with the correlations made by the author with the FAMILY and the fact they liked to do 'finger pointing' to others to make alibi's for themselves definitely could be.

Larry Kane was definitely one that liked to do that and he absolutely knew Bruce Davis and probably others...like Ed Edwards and yes...here he comes again, that dopey Raymond Ottoboni from Colma, Ca fame, and his buddy Wayne Messier.

They were all here at Lake Tahoe!!!

Richard
3/16/2015 11:58:34 pm

Written by Stagliano in 2008:
http://forums.superiorpics.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1580205/Zodiac_Killer_Found.
ZODIAC: the conclusion

The “Zodiac” case was one of the most costly and misdirected police investigations in California history. Why? Because the murders associated with the “Zodiac” were a hoax, for the most part. The “Zodiac” was not a serial killer.

This may appear to you as absurd and ridiculous – the Zodiac case is a classic in the annals of serial killers. But follow the evidence, the techniques, victims, and even the varying description of the “Zodiac” – nothing really matches. The only link to a Zodiac serial killer is a series of letters written apparently by one man.

The murder in Riverside of Cheri Jo Bates on October 30, 1966 and the murder of Cecilia Shepherd on September 27, 1969 at Lake Berryessa show that the victims were stabbed savagely and repeatedly – the act of a butcher. These murders were similar to the slaying of Charles Manson’s uncle in London and in the Sharon Tate murders – a knife was the weapon of choice by the murderer. Now consider that when Bruce Davis, a member of the Charles Manson Family, was arrested in Southern California law enforcement found the hood, weapons and other evidence linking Davis to those two murders. He has always remained the top suspect in the London murder, as well. Because the District Attorney in Southern California had an open and shut case on Davis for two unrelated “Zodiac” murders, the DA decided not to raise the issue of the other murders or the Zodiac issue for fear of complicating the case. After two San Francisco detectives went to Southern California and were confronted with the “Zodiac” evidence, they returned to the Bay Area and announced that they were no longer investigating the “Zodiac” case.

The greatest puzzle in the entire Zodiac investigation was the inclusion of the Riverside murder of 1966, when all the other murders in Northern California took place between December 20, 1968 through October 11, 1969.

Ironically, the Zodiac name was created not by the individual claiming to be the Zodiac killer, but by a letter writer to the San Francisco Chronicle. The “Zodiac” simply signed his name in code and used a circle with a cross inside – either a Zodiac symbol or a hunter’s scope. The Zodiac did not claim the 1966 and 1968 murders – in fact the first Zodiac letter did not appear until July 11, 1969 after the murder of Darlene Ferrin on July 5, 1969. The Zodiac letters had no problem claiming specific victims; yet one letter claimed he had killed 37 people, failing to identify 31 of them. The failure to identify so many “victims” was out of character for the “Zodiac”. CONTINUED BELOW

Thomas Henry Horan link
8/16/2015 09:41:42 am

There is more to this than you have mentioned. The first three letters were written by one person; however, if you look closely at the hi-res scans of the following letters, they were clearly written by at least one other, and probably two other, people. In addition to distinctly different handprinting, those letters show a distinctly different personality and reason for writing.

The "lovesick" suspect in the Jensen murder was Ricky Burton. Danny Price was a different suspect, and a better one. You'll notice when you read the files that there was zero effort made to check his alibi, compared to the extensive effort made to check Ricky's.

The ballistics evidence collected at the Lake Herman Road scene very strongly suggests that the shooter got out of the PASSENGER side of the second car that James Owens saw parked next to the victims Rambler moments before he heard what sounded like a gunshot. The empty shell casing from that shot was found in the area outside the passenger door of the second car. The second shell casing was found in the area in front of the second car. The Donohue brothers, in jail awaiting trial for a separate murder, told Solano deputy Terry Cunningham that they were in that second car and described the scene, victims clothing, etc in very accurate detail. They accused a third man of being the shooter. Cunningham hinted that third man was supposedly David Ott, but it could also have been Danny Price.

Alex Lewis link
11/7/2015 11:47:10 am

Hi Thomas, good to see you here commenting. I recently listened to you radio interview on this case, well, 70% or so before I had to leave to run some errands and never got around to finish listening to the final 30% or so. Of what I did get through and remember, your theories are very interesting and I agree that evidence exists to base the concept of 'The' Zodiac Killer being a smoke and mirrors diversion to conceal some very real victim specific killing/killings.

I notice you make mention of James Owen above and His statements of the second vehicle, the audible shot fired etc and so I wanted to ask you: Do you, just in your personal opinion, believe Owen to be credible and accept His testimony at face value without question? I'm sure you know what I am getting at, do you think His discrepancies in 3ft vs 10ft distance between vehicles is simply due to what we today know to be the fallibility of witnesses statements? I ask because for me, yes, there are certain things you may not remember straight away and days, even weeks later have something come back to you but, a shot fired not being recalled the morning after the incident? An incident you know and have been told two teens were murdered having been shot to death?

Richard
3/16/2015 11:59:11 pm

Another oddity to the Zodiac case is the description of the killer. Some describe him as having a round face while others depict him as having a thin face. The police sketches show at least two completely different and unrelated faces. Each law enforcement agency had their own “suspect” and they differ widely with each other. A few suspects, however, were considered prime suspects in more than one jurisdiction. Either finger prints or hand writing didn’t match, even though the State Department of Justice said emphatically that the handwriting was the major key to solving the case.

Robert E. Hunter was considered a prime suspect in both San Francisco and Napa. His handwriting is also a perfect match. The Sentinel has boxes and boxes of Hunter’s handwriting taken from his garbage can in front of his home on Washington Street in San Francisco. But it isn’t just the handwriting that draws Hunter into the case. When Paul Stein, the cab driver, drove to Washington Street, the address on his log was that of Hunter’s house. The clues in the Zodiac letter about the school bus and “kiddies” refer to the Kiddie school, which can be seen from his house. Also, the Zodiac letter described the activities of the Police the night Stein was killed – keenly observing all the movements. Only some of the movements could have been seen from his Washington Street address. In Hunter’s driveway we obtained the license number of cars and traced one to his niece in Riverside. According to Cheri Jo Bates’ father, Cheri was a close friend of Hunter’s niece and was supposed to go out with her the night she was murdered. What stopped Hunter’s niece from accompanying Bates to the College Library that night was that she had a visitor – her uncle, Robert E. Hunter. Robert E. Hunter did not kill Bates, but he knew of the murder the next day. Hunter’s niece and Bruce Davis all left Riverside immediately after the murder.

Another fact tying Hunter to the case is the fact that he knew Donna Lass – supposedly the “last” victim of the Zodiac, though her body has never been found. She disappeared on September 30, 1970, nearly a year after the murder of Paul Stein. Bruce Davis was in prison at that time. In fact, he was arrested in Southern California the day after Paul Stein’s murder. Hunter, in some way can be connected to the murder of Paul Stein and the disappearance of Donna Lass. The motive may have been monetary in the case of Lass (which will be explained).

A lot of drug activity was taking place in Vallejo, which also involved Vallejo Police Officers. Darlene Ferrin, living beyond her financial means, was tight with the Vallejo cops and also in the drug scene. But Danny Price was also in tight with the cops and the drug activities. At least three Vallejo Police officers were driven from the force for illegal acts and one spent many years in prison. Price was a drug dealer and a person always in trouble with the law. In fact he had served time in prison. He had an air-tight alibi the night Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday were murdered. This drug dealer said he was with a Police officer watching television the night the couple was murdered on Lake Herman Road. In separate and undisclosed interviews with drug dealers in Vallejo and some Police officers, each have stated that Price was the person who killed the two teenagers. The shooting of David Faraday is reported to have been an accident – an argument got out of hand. There is evidence that there were two – not one – assailants at the scene of the murders – perhaps the Police officer who ties into Price’s alibi. The car of the victims had the window down and the heater going full blast. The murder took place on December 20, 1968 – a very cold night. The only way the window would be down under most conditions is to communicate with someone outside.

Thomas Henry Horan link
8/16/2015 09:48:44 am

There were fingerprints found on the passenger door handle of Darlene's car that police believed probably belonged to the shooter. There were finger and palm prints found on the pay phone in Napa, and on the passenger door area of Bryan's car, and finger and Palm prints found on the cab which were believed to have probably belonged to those assailants. According to Napa Undersheriff Tom Johnson at a press conference on October 16, 1969, all of those prints appeared to match each other. According to the FBI report of Ocotober 23, NONE of the prints matched. Etc. etc. etc.

NONE of the evidence suggests any link between the murders. ALL of the evidence suggests otherwise. The letters contained information that the actual killers could not have known; a person who had access to ALL of the information used to write the letters has handprinting identical to the first three Zodiac letters. Those first three letters point pretty clearly at two Vallejo cops and their pet informant. That doesn't mean the guy was guilty, but it certainly suggests that the letters were written to call attention to him by someone who didn't want to get his own family shot up.

Richard
3/17/2015 12:01:44 am

Price was in love with Jensen and was upset that she was dating Faraday for the first time. According to the drug community, Price is alleged to have waved a weapon at the couple to scare them – there was no intention to shoot. The gun went off, whether in a struggle or freak accident. Price had been dating Jensen and she dropped him for Faraday. Unlike other “Zodiac-related” cases, there was no letter claiming responsibility, and there were no phone calls to Police claiming a murder. The murders, though they attracted a lot of publicity, did not create the sensation the Zodiac case did. Darlene Ferrin knew Price and she knew Jensen. In Graysmith’s book Zodiac, he states, “There was a love-sick boy who had been bugging her (Jensen) at school and who had threatened Dave (Faraday).”

To date we can link Davis to the Bates and Shepherd murders. We can link Hunter to some involvement in the Stein murder and Lass disappearance. We can link Price with the murders of Faraday and Jensen. What about Darleen Ferrin?

It wasn’t until six days after Darleen Ferrin murder that the Zodiac’s first letter surfaced. Ferrin had a direct link to Paul Stein, the cab driver. Ferrin was murder on September 27, 1969 and Stein two weeks later on October 11, 1969. The death of Ferrin was the birth of the Zodiac myth.

Though Darlene was married, she continued to date and associate with Police officers and members of the drug community. She sold drugs herself – not on a massive basis, though. On or about April 1969 - a few months before her death – a man, who fits the description of Lawrence Kane and Paul Petri, as well as Bruce Davis, commenced to hang around her house. She told her sister that the man must have returned from out-of-state and that she saw him kill someone. Kane had been living in Las Vegas and returned, and it was also the time Davis returned from London. Petri was a CHP Officer who had not left the state. Thus, Petri was not the man outside of Darlene’s house. The man brought gifts and met Darlene at Terry’s, where she worked. Kane, Petri and Davis all match the composite drawing made by the San Francisco Police of the man seen exiting the cab of Paul Stine after his murder. Petri had dated Darlene and was very much in love with her.

The man outside of her house continued to question her about where she was getting her money from. She was wearing fancy clothes, was a guest of a luxury yacht on July 4 and took private flights with someone. Kane did not have much funding. After Darlene’s murder, Kane disappeared. Davis lived in Vallejo and immediately went south to live with the Manson Family. Petri was under investigation for Darlene’s murder.

sandy betts link
8/18/2015 02:02:41 pm

Richard, The information you have been given is not correct. Darlene did not know Betty Lou Jensen or Paul Stine. I have not been able to prove one way or the other about her knowing Larry Kane. My suspect happens to look very much like Kane.In fact I investigated Kane myself ,because I was told that was the name of my suspect. For years I believed that until Kane died and my guy was still very much alive.Kane is the best suspect for the Donna Lass case. Darlene was not murdered on Sep 27th that was Cecilia Shepard. Kane and Davis looked nothing alike. Darlene is the key to the case that part is true.

Richard
8/18/2015 04:16:17 pm

Hi Sandy, that information above was taken from a forum post by Stagliano in 2008: I just presented it to show Robin in case he hadn't seen it, but personally I don't subscribe to it.

Robin Smith
8/19/2015 12:50:00 am

TY Richard...as I had not seen Stag's comments!! I do appreciate it.

Also TY Sandy!! as a matter of fact I did not know that the Lowe's owned a real estate company when Donna was staying with them.

Do you have anymore info on the Lowe's Sandy?

Robin Smith
9/5/2015 05:02:45 am

Sandy...ahhh ha!

Sandy...June 6, 2001 from ZodiacKiller.comMessage Board: How did Allen become a suspect?..

..."The only time I saw Kane with long hair, was when he was in drag. Yes I saw hum twice in drag!"...

Whew...I see that now I can move on:) Finding and straightening all this stuff out is a nightmare but I see now that you thought it was Kane in drag in 2001 as he did not die until 2010. TY again:)

Lee
12/9/2017 11:08:31 pm

How do you know for sure Darlene did not know Stine? They lived in the same part of SF for awhile. And she lived in the same town as Betty Lou. So I am not sure how you can denounce some connections so definitively.

Lee
12/9/2017 11:11:56 pm

Where are you getting this info? Interesting but for one thing Ferrin was killed July 4th not September.

Richard
3/17/2015 12:02:20 am

Darlene had refused to join the Ott drug organization and was selling as a free agent. Her companion, Michael Mageau was with Darlene at the time of her death and he apparently knows who killed her. He was shot several times by the assailant and went into hiding after he recovered. He will not talk about the case. When Darlene’s sister attempted to visit Mageau years later, shots were fired into her house in Antioch – the family dog was killed in the process. Also, a Police officer working with Darlene’s family was also shot at. The drug community indicates that Mageau may actually have set Darlene up.

The Vallejo drug community has forwarded information in Darlene’s case stating that Darlene knew too much about the drug traffic and police connection to the drug traffic and that she would not join the drug organization and provide a portion of her sales to them.

Darlene, like most of the known victims, was not a victim of the Zodiac - she was a victim – as many were – of the Vallejo-Napa drug community. When the original Zodiac letter was sent – six days after Darlene’s murder – the Vallejo Police jumped at the chance of linking it to a serial killer – it fit a pattern that would divert attention away from them. The Police have been in conflict – one officer, who accompanied Darlene to the hospital in the back of the ambulance – says that she was dead at the scene. But two officers who responded to the murder scene state that not only was Darlene alive at the time she was placed in the ambulance, she was also expected to live. She was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. She died in the ambulance, attended only by a single police officer, who was the first on the scene to the shooting and also the first on the scene to the Jensen-Faraday shootings. This police officer had also dated Darlene.

One of the strangest events associated with Darlene’s death was that the passenger door handle was missing at the scene of the crime. Mageau could not get out of the car because the door handle wouldn’t work. The handle was not on the car when it was impounded by the Police. The vehicle was under tight compound security and on the next day, the door handle had been placed back on the vehicle within the secure compound. Darlene was not a Zodiac-related killing.

The drug community indicates that Officer Petri shot Darlene, acting as a hit man for the Ott organization. Another Police officer in the ambulance is believed to have finished the job. Darlene knew Kane and Kane knew Paul Stein – all involved in the drug traffic. In the meantime, Donna Lass was entering her fourth month on the East Coast with a prominent and wealthy doctor – Robert E. Hunter, Sr., father of Robert E. Hunter.

Hunter, an ingenious San Francisco banker was a prime suspect in the Zodiac murders – but he never killed anyone. This does not mean that he was innocent or that he was not involved in the case. His house, his clues, his symbolisms, and especially his handwriting lay critical evidence at his door step. Hunter appears to be the architect of the hoax that lead police investigators on a wild goose chase. The purpose would be diversion. Stein had just been robbed while driving his Yellow Cab in San Francisco. He was reluctant about picking up any passengers. Yet the last passenger he would ever pick up was allowed to sit in the front seat. Stein would also have been upset with the murder of Darlene Ferrin, a close friend of his. Stein did not know Hunter but he did know Kane, quite well. Kane also was familiar with Stein’s ties to Darlene and the drug organization. Kane had worked for the mob in Vegas. His Vegas mob boss went to the Midwest for a “mob organization” meeting. He was murdered there. Kane came back to the Bay Area.

When the cab driver was murdered, his log showed the address on Washington Street to be that of Hunter’s. Hunter knew Donna Lass as the woman who ran off with his father for six months to the East Coast. Hunter’s father was wealthy – so wealthy that he donated an entire wing to a hospital in Southern California were Donna Lass worked as a nurse. It was Kane that drove Lass to Lake Tahoe for a new job in the same casino that he was working for. She disappeared shortly after that. A Zodiac letter gave clues to her body, but it has never been found. The clues have been deciphered and the exact location indicated in the last Zodiac letter has been found. A few artifacts belonging to Lass were found in what appeared to be a shallow grave, but no body surfaced.

You put Kane’s relationship to Darlene and Stein, add the fact that Lass was a passenger when Kane and she drove to Lake Tahoe before her disappearance – and you have linkage. Also, Kane fits the Zodiac description given by witnesses to the Stein murder. He also fits the description of the man who flew with Hun

Alex Lewis
8/16/2015 07:00:32 pm

Lass has always been mentioned in association with a wealthy banker from San Francisco and it's often assumed to be Hunter. This may well be true or have some basis to it but in Harvey Hines full report, He makes mention of Donna Lass was employed at Letterman from Sept of 1969 to June of 1970. She submitted an application to the Sahara Tahoe on May 25, 1970. However, previous to both the Letterman and Sahara Tahoe positions, Donna worked as a travelling private duty nurse (Home care) for A Dr. Frederich Reichert and it was upon his passing, she applied for the Letterman Job.

I wonder if this is the 'wealthy banker' people mix up with being associated with Donna.

Alex Lewis
8/16/2015 07:10:05 pm

From Reichert's obituary:

" During his professional career Dr. Reichert was active in a number of societies. He was a
member of the Alpha Omega Alpha and Sigma Xi societies at Johns Hopkins. He also held
membership in the American Medical Association, the California Medical Association, the
Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine, the Pacific Coast Surgical Association, the
American Neurological Association, the American Surgical Association, the Harvey Cushing
Society, the International Society of Surgery, the Pan-Pacific Surgical Congress and the
American Association for the Study of Trauma.

sandy betts link
9/5/2015 08:43:51 pm

Richard, Robt. Hunter Jr did not live at that house on Washington . He was living on Lyon. Mrs Augsbury's gardener and his family was living at that house, after she passed away.
So much misinformation in this case! And no my RH is not Hunter. Feel free to ask me any questions. Someone wanted to know how Art Allen became a suspect? Two of his friends started the whole thing, then Ralph Spinnilli claimed Allen told him he was Zodiac. Allen had a Zodiac watch and that started the ball rolling on Allen. He was way too large to be Zodiac.There was a very good chance that Darlene was involved in a counterfeit ring in Vallejo. She was about to go to the police about it, when she was killed. She was not random ! That is what I believe, because I knew one of the people in that ring who mentioned her name to me.

Robin Smith
9/14/2015 05:24:27 am

Whew...there are so many initials and fake names and Mr X's involved in this case that it is absolutely amazing!! No wonder no one has ever been able to get to the REAL suspects.

Oh I see! 44 years later everybody is still worried about getting sued?? I think somebody is worried about being involved personally in murder!

William J Grant?...is that the REAL name of Mr X? RH? Sierra Club's Judge Sherwin's secretary/mistress' husband?

The one that supposedly got a speeding ticket in Tahoe (North/South Ca/Nv? ) at the same rime Donna Lass went missing?

I wonder which cop is hiding that little tid bit.

Robin Smith
9/14/2015 05:43:39 am

Oooops! 45 years later!!!

TIME FLIES when you're having fun:)

Alex Lewis
9/14/2015 02:14:50 pm

Robin. . . .

"Oh I see! 44 years later everybody is still worried about getting sued??"

Well when you say 'everybody' Robin, I must insist I be excluded from this list because I didn't learn of Kjells name untill literally weeks prior to his death, and a legal threat against myelf for defamation of character would not be worth the paper it was printed upon because yes, Kjell could have appealed to the Civil Court as Plantiff alleging myself, the defendant, had been a naughty boy but the judge can award the Plantiff as much in damages as He likes, I would then intantly declare bankrupcy. But before doing so would use the Law to my advantage and specifically 'The right of the accused to face his accuser' and I would then proceed with what would later be dubbed, 'The longest ever cross-examination in he history of the Legal System, in both Civil and Criminal Trial by Jury History!

Alex Lewis
9/14/2015 02:23:18 pm

"William J Grant?...is that the REAL name of Mr X?

No. I told you who Mr X is/was. Kjell Hammond Qvale, 3636 Jackson St resident at time of Paul's Murder.

Lee
12/9/2017 11:22:58 pm

Are you also not the ex of a Vallejo cop? So what do you say about the allegations that so many of them were dirty?

Robin Smith
9/28/2015 04:24:13 am

Donna Lass, according to several 'sources', was connected to Robert E Hunter Sr and Robert E Hunter Jr was not happy about that!

MONEY MONEY MONEY was apparently involved and all connections between Hunter Sr and Lass have been ignored or just plain hidden. I suspect hidden, as her ties to Cottage Hospital in Santa Barbara have been.

Howard Davis has put Manson a couple of blocks away from Donna's residence in Santa Barbara at the time she was there.

The fact she was involved in/spied on a nurse that was stealing drugs at Cottage Hospital and the 'drugs' crooked police connection in Vallejo keep popping up.

According to newspaper articles provided by Galaxie 500 KANE offered to help police to get off some of his jewelry heist capers and to openly admit conspiring with police to give them info will certainly get one killed, however KANE just kept going and going and going.

I continue to trawel through this myriad of minutiae.

Dana
2/13/2016 10:42:53 pm

I'm the one who came up with the connection of hunter and Donna at the cottage hospital. But I want to mention one of my lastest observations. Darlines sister once said darline once worked at a coffee shop near crocker bank one Montgomery and darline cashed her checks there. In darlines phone book she has a listing for franks coffee shop 10 Geary st. That's one block from croxker bank the nearest reateraynt in the area so I believe darlines sister even though she's told stories in the past. Back in 65 when darline worked there hunter was the plat form manger at crocker that means he would greet customers when they came in. Now could he have met darline then did he eat at franks plus other crocker employees since franks was the closets





Robin Smith
2/14/2016 02:35:14 am

When did Sylvia and Robert E Hunter divorce? This is a key question that N0 one has come up with! the answer to.

..Sylvia was an A list SF socialite, a Catholic and Robert E Hunter Jr was not notable. He did something pretty awful to get this woman to divorce him and N0 one is interested??

D. Beat
2/21/2016 11:00:34 pm

The Hunters devorced sometime in 1990. Sylvia married Hunters business partner Leonard Kingsley. The booth worked at 244 California 7th floor

Richard
3/17/2015 12:02:53 am

* Lass quit her job in Santa Barbara on the same day Robert E. Hunter, Jr., sold his house in San Francisco.

* Lass and two men from San Francisco frequently flew to Riverside. The men lived near her in San Francisco. Hunter and Kane closely fit the room mate’s description of the two men who flew to Riverside with Lass. Kane and Hunter lived within a few blocks of Lass.

* Lass went to Lake Tahoe with Kane and worked in the same Casino together – she as a nurse, and he in his extended position with the mob. The employment was at the Sahara Hotel.

* The last Zodiac letter – for at least three years = was sent in reference to Donna Lass’ disappearance.

* The Zodiac message on Donna Lass’ death describes property in the Sierra’s that matches perfectly with property owned by Hunter in Alpine.

Coincidentally, the first Zodiac letter began after Donna Lass went to the east coast with Robert E. Hunter, Sr. The letters began about three months into their trip. The letters drew on known information about other murders – a precursor for a future plot. The Zodiac letters may well have been written to cover up a future murder and not to confess to murders that the Zodiac had any involvement with. It was important, however. For the Zodiac to establish the authenticity of the Zodiac letters and Paul Stine’s murder may have been only to provide solid evidence linking the Zodiac to an actual murder and to do double duty for the drug dealers in Vallejo – getting rid of Stein and his link and knowledge of Darlene Ferrin.

By sending in a piece of the bloody cab driver’s shirt with a letter set the stage to “prove” a serial killer existed and that previous claims of murders were authentic. It was a hoax, pure and simple, to set the stage for the murder of Donna Lass.

What happened between Hunter, Sr., and Donna Lass for six months on the east coast? If a courtship had arisen from that trip, was Donna creeping into the will of Hunter, Sr.? When Hunter, Sr., died only one known will existed – the Sentinel has a copy of it – and there was no protest – but again, there was no Donna Lass to protest should she have been included in the will.

Were the Zodiac letters an elaborate and calculated ploy to set up Donna Lass? This would explain why law enforcement officials could never crack the Zodiac case of a single madman. No set of evidence from various murders would match with the others from the method, weapon and relationship. Police in San Francisco quit the case when reviewing information in Southern California. The Police in Vallejo were happy to accept another theory to cover up crooked cops. A jealous lover also played a role. The only link to any of this was letters claiming murders in order to set up a future murder.

Zodiac was a myth that hypnotized the San Francisco Bay Area for decades – when the whole plot may have been the simplest and most common in the annals of time – money.

Robin Smith
3/18/2015 03:48:13 am

StagliaN0 2008...TY Richard!:)

Zodiac was N0t a HOAX...Z was an operation and Stag is correct in that DARLENE FERRIN was the reason for 0peration Zodiac (0Z).

When Manson, "a stinky little car thief", so named by one of his prison mates, was turned loose from Treasure Island in 1967, he asked to STAY in prison. He had been there for 16 of his 32 years. His last two years being spent with Alvin"Creepy" Karpis. oh oh...F.B.I.

N0 to staying...go out with drugs and sex and get a riot going. Well, when the 'riot' did N0t materialize as planned...he and their plan fell apart. Manson had worn out his welcome everywhere and with everyone by screwing them all over. Manson went" N0rth"and when he did return to the desert he said that, "up N0rth" they canN0t get their s*** together.

Darlene Ferrin was going to blow the lid off. Sex, drugs, crooked cops and Mayor Joe Alioto having night-time meetings with "Jimmy The Hat" and other Mob hit men at the Nut Tree.

Darlene and Donna both frequented the Nut Tree as did their families and friends and both knew Kane/Davis/Hunter/Stein.

Davis with direct connections to Scientology/LRH/CoS/Anton LaVey
Kane having direct connections with The Mob/Alioto/Sinatra

Lotsa MONEY, murder...drugs and sex

Darlene and all that really messy underage sex, drugs and crooked local cops and Straight Satans.

I could write a book about all this, however, as evidenced by all of these posts...I am N0t a writer.

Lee
12/9/2017 11:27:45 pm

Where are you getting your info?

Robin Smith
3/18/2015 06:28:51 am

The Kings Castle casiN0 was opened at Incline Village, Nevada in 1969 by Nathan S. Jacobson. When the new hotel and casiN0 opened, the Incline Village Hotel and CasiN0 across the street closed.

Nate was the money guy for Jay Sarno who developed Caesars Palace and its first president....

One airline stewardess that 'dated' Nate said, "Titanic. Volcanic. Horrific. His temper was a spectacle to behold when he gambled and lost, yelling and swearing at the blackjack dealers and pit bosses. And lose he did.

He lost big time and regularly at the SAHARA TAHOE.

Alex Lewis link
3/31/2015 04:46:37 am

Hey Rich....

As I think I mentioned already, I spoke with Destry Hines a few months back about Kane and the general Zodiac case after he liked and became a follower of my website. In that initial conversation sent me Kane's prints and the latents that were lifted from Bryans car at Berryessa.

Anyway,to cut a long story short, he told me that after His Father had passed away, he sent all his research and evidence he had gathered to Ed Rust. So, i've just sent Destry a message asking him could he put me in touch with Ed Rust. If he can, I plan to ask Ed Rust if he would send me everything Destry gave him, or at the very least photocopies of the files and tell him I will pay the costs to do this as well as shipping/postage costs.

If I can get hold of all the files and documentation put together by Harvey Hines in regards to suspect Kane, I'll send all of it on via email to you Rich and you can then upload any and/or all files of he wishes.

Alex Lewis
3/31/2015 05:35:02 am

Speaking of Mr Rust, it appears Ed now hold a World Record that he got media attention for:

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/general-news/20150317/former-vallejo-police-officer-ed-rust-sets-world-record-at-lifting-event-in-chico

Richard
3/31/2015 02:25:15 pm

That would be fantastic Alex, would it be possible to post it in article form with accreditation, with his permission and yours. As regards the weightlifting, that is mighty impressive at 73 or any age for that matter. I wouldn't like to meet him in a dark alley.

Richard
4/1/2015 03:29:27 am

That would be fantastic. As regards the weightlifting, that is mighty impressive at 73 or any age for that matter. I wouldn't like to meet him in a dark alley.

Alex link
4/28/2015 02:09:18 am

Anyway, Back to Donna for a moment. I am pretty sure Donna had some knowledge of the crimes and person/people behind it. I think Kane knew Donna and that I am sure of, her work colleagues affirm as such so I think Donna either knew or had evidence of something incriminating against Kane. I think she likely promised Kane his secret was safe and that she wanted to move away to start over and get away from what she knew regarding the happenings in San Fran. Maybe Her and Darlene saw or were privy to the same knowledge. Dee said to her sister on the eve of her death "You'll read about me in tomorrows Newspapers."
Some have questioned whether Dee had a premonition of her death but that, for me, is both irrational and illogical. Irrational because people don't get 24 hours notice of their imminent demise and illogical because if Darlene did have some sort of psychic premonition of being murdered that night, then I would think she'd stay away from dark and lonely car park's at a late hour.

I think Donna may have been privy to the same or similar knowledge that Dee was. Dee, it is alleged, told at least one other person she had seen the man now stalking her murder someone. Did she arrange to meet this man that night and planned to threaten or blackmail him and brought Mike along falsely believing that with a witness with her, this man would not attack her?

I think Donna may have got mixed up in something she either did not want to be mixed up with or at the least, knew something about someone that that someone was fearful of Donna having that info to the point where when she left SF for a new start in Sth. Lane Tahoe, the guy, in all likelihood Kane, followed her to keep an eye on her and make sure she didn't open her mouth and become The States Witness against himself. She was there for Three Months before she went missing so she may have herself become fed up of Kane keeping tabs on her and threatened to expose him and his secret, A very costly mistake threatening this person in the mistaken hope or belief that he'd back off and leave her alone, a similar misjudgement Darlene made underestimating just how volatile and dangerous this man could be when faced with a person threatening to out him

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 07:13:42 am

It's long been hinted that there was a connection to the occult, specifically to Dee Ferrin who, it is alleged, was active in Occult Circles and was said to have confided to her sister that she had seen a certain individual that she feared was now stalking her, previousy murder another person. The Occult angle is something that never has been proven one way or the other as to the truth of it but here is an excerpt from Harvey's Report:

"Several Days later I received a call from Sgt. Adler. He told me that He had gone down to South Tahoe and interviewed Kane at his residence." (Skip forward a couple sentences)....
"Sgt Adler was given permission by Kane to have a brief look around his residence. Sgt Adler said He noted Kane had several books in his house and recalled several of their titles. They were: 'The Adult History.' 'Dream Therapy.' 'Beyond the reach of senses' 'Window to the past' 'THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WITCH CRAFT' and 'DEMONOLOGY.'
Adler said when asked about this, Kane denied having any interest in the occult.".

Robin Smith
7/28/2015 07:42:50 am

TY Alex....I am still fixated on MOTHER..if HH mentions her! I still think she is somehow involved especially in the Astrology.

Bruce Davis and Larry Kane both knew Darlene.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 09:52:29 am

Yeah Rob HH does refer to Sarah a few times. In the first reference to Her HH states that Morris H. Klein married Sarah (nee Benjamin) Kane. So it would appear that Larry got the name 'Kane' from his mothers side of the family.

Harvey states in his report that Channel 8 News Crew took his claim seriously and asked HH to accompany them to S. Lake Tahoe so that HH can point them to Kane's residence where they planned to turn up on his doorstep cameras rolling. HH agreed and accompanied them and for several day running, Kane was never home. On the final day of their stay in SLT, Harvey spotted Kane driving passed them and they, HH and news anchor & cameraman, followed Kane until he pulled into a night club parking lot.

The anchor engaged Kane in pointless conversation stalling for time as the cameraman hurried to retrieve his camera and equipt. form the boot of their vehicle. The camera man approached Kane and the Anchor......

Continued in post below!

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 10:06:21 am

The News anchor then jumped into the line of questioning that they had come to Tahoe to put to Kane. "This police Officer says, Mr Kane, that He believes you to be responsible for several homicides in California, is He correct Mr Kane?"
HH states that Kane's face turns pale, and He motions to his companion in the passenger side of his vehicle before then expresses anger and rage as he shoved the anchorman backward with a roar of "Get away from me!"
The anchor steadies himself and asks "Are you also called Lawrence Klein?" Kane responds by shoving the anchor violently and He almost hits the floor as Kane barks "NO! GET AWAY FROM ME!" Following Kane toward the clubs door, The anchor asks. "Did you ever live in San Francisco for any Period of time Mr Kane?" Kane answered. "No!" They followed Him into the club and Kane was seen speaking with several bouncer looking types who asked Harvey and The Crew to leave, which they then did. Kane's passenger also followed them outside and as the crew & HH were putting the equipt. away, Kane's companion opened the passenger door to Kane's car, reached under the seat, and came up holding a pistol which, HH states, He stood there palming for several seconds making sure we all saw it.

Harvey returned home to Portland, and shortly after this public confrontation with Kane, His home was broken into and the files and reports He had gathered up to that point were taken from his closet, placed in the center of the master bed-room, and set on fire where He was to discover them in ashes shortly after coming home 1 day.

Robin Smith
7/28/2015 10:27:03 am

Alex...Excellent stuff TY!!!

.Does HH mention the date of his encounter with Kane's gun wielding friend?

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 11:05:40 am

October 20, 1979.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 11:17:06 am

Hmm, interesting. Oliver Hines told me this in an email last week and Here is evidence in HH reporting of this particular parking lot confrontation.

Kane would and did respond to Harvey's questions routinely....except for one single question. In the parking lot, He makes no exception and denies being Lawrence Klein, denies ever even living in the Bay area, denies everything verbally until HH and/or crew ask him directly "Are you the Zodiac Killer, Lawrence? Every time, and Oliver made a point of himself seeing this as extremely important via email, Kane was asked is He the Zodiac He responded the same every single time.......Silence. Neither would He affirm nor deny the allegation!

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!
7/28/2015 11:22:48 am

This is not from HH's report but information told to my By Oliver....

The last conversation Harvey had with Kane He called Kane on the telephone and the conversation went like this:

HH: Well Larry, your an old man now and your fixing to die soon, don't you think now would be a good time to clear your conscience and confess?"
LK: To What?
HH: Being the Zodiac
LK: (Slight pause) If I do, what's in it for me?
HH: Mae peace before meeting your maker.
LK: No, I don't think so! (Hangs up)

Robin Smith
7/29/2015 06:47:48 am

HH said that Kane drove? past him and the News crew...there you go....Kane was driving.

Kane was driving everywhere and N0ne of the LE people ever N0ticed....unbelievable!

Alex Lewis
9/18/2016 11:45:15 am

"HH said that Kane drove? past him and the News crew...there you go....Kane was driving. "

Harvey had ran a DMV Check before going to Tahoe and discovered that Lawrence Had a legit and Legal Licence to Drive but on the DMV records it showed Nevada had issued Him a licence with the stipulation of 'Restricted to Corrective Lenses.' Nevada had issued the Licence in the Name of Lawrence Cane and Cane's Licence No. was N3490622 and shows a P.O Box 375 Zephyr Cove, NV associated address and also, the main address showed Tahoe Inn, South Lake Tahoe, CA.

Alex Lewis
9/18/2016 11:53:16 am

The Vehicle Kane Drove was an Ambassador and, as stated, Harvey knew what car to look for because He'd ran a DMV Check on Lawrence before going down there. The Vehicle itself, the ambassador, showed Two listed Registered Owners of Lawrence Steven Klein and Irving Allen Klein. Apparently Irving Allen was the Uncle of Lawrence and on that specific vehicle records showed the Co-Owners, Lawrence and Irving, were both registered as residing at 1033 Eden Bower Lane.

Observer
5/3/2015 09:49:16 am

I just wanted to comment that the investigative talent here is out of this world! Why aren't any big papers carrying any of this? How it's all tied back to the casino's, mob/syndicate casino men, right up to the top of city government...unbelievable. Senators Kennedy and Kefauver were investigating connections to the mob casinos, then later Bobby Kennedy and Senator McClellan in 1961-62? Teamsters Funds, Sarno, Dorfman, mob, government...it's all here. Did you all know that there is a court case online concerning Terry Melcher, mom Doris Day, her boyfriend Rosenthal who bought shares into the Cabana Hotel in Dallas with Sarno in 1962? Thats where the famous meeting in the Egyptian Room took place Nov 22,1963. Interesting fact, the Beatles played there in 1964(January?), and Raquel Welch was a cocktail waitress there. I bet she was really good! Is there a connection between the Kennedy murders, Manson murders, Zodiac? There seems to be a common denominator(s). The Ambassador Hotel chain was run by the G David Schine family of Gloversville/ and Manhattan. Mickey Cohen was a close friend of Jack Ruby and ran the casino in the Los Angeles Ambassador. Del Mar racetrack was another Dallas/and Hoodlum related racket. Seems LaBianca Sr. owed the track a lot of money? Observation: If there is a common denominator among these murders, then there can't be a single lone nut can there? If , on the other hand, they are all deemed single lone nut jobs, then we have to throw out the common denominators of business, organized crime, law enforcement(or lack thereof)and government agents with backdoor channels to these hoodlums like Ruby, Dorfman, Sydney Korshack etc.

Robin Smith
5/5/2015 12:40:26 am

Observer...Kennedy and Manson?

Mae Brussell broadcast 13 Oct, 1971 on KLRB Radio, Carmel, California

Robin Smith
8/19/2015 01:05:52 am

I appreciate any contributions to the subject whether or not I agree with their position. It does help my thinking:) and sometimes even changes my own position.

TY ALL

Robin Smith
8/19/2015 01:14:15 am

Observer

Did you read any Mae Brussell on the Kennedy/Manson. Kennedy is way over my ability to investigate but from what I did read Mae had a pretty good take on the Manson connection!

d. Beat
2/25/2016 10:12:24 am

Read Peter lavenda,s Sinister forces. He talks about Sharon Tate and her husband had dinner with r.f.k. just hours before his assaination. Also sirhan and Manson ran in the same circles.were members or visited the o.t.o lodge in pasadinia.

Robin Smith
9/16/2015 12:16:38 pm

I'm going to take a line from the movie "The Last of the Dogmen" Tom Berenger and Barbara Hershey...re what happened 1965-1975 here in Lake Tahoe.

The schism between private and corporate ownership of the properties surrounding Lake Tahoe and every government agency on the planet jumping in with blah blah blah...

"What happened was inevitable, how it happened unconscionable."

I'm here about that "unconscionable" part.

xxxxcasey
10/8/2015 01:06:43 am

I have read allot about the zodiac case, and IMO, it was more than one person in on it. I do believe it was an operation. Perhaps four ppl who were in on it. The case takes everyone who investigates it around in circles, and has for years. There's something ppl are missing with the zodiac case... And I believe that's ppl putting all eggs in one basket, when there's a few baskets. However, I do believe that yes, someone out there knows more than they say. They would have to! Also, I do believe that Kane was involved with the zodiac operation. And yes, I believe whoever murdered Darlene is your zodiac, and I do believe she knew him, and also was involve in something connected to the zodiac killer, or operation.

Robin Smith
10/9/2015 04:03:20 am

xxxx...Blind men and the elephant!! was my analogy...all eggs in one basket!!! GR8 minds:)

Nice to know that at least one person has a similar perspective.

Bruce Davis is much more involved with Donna Lass, Larry Kane and "Bob" Hunter than these people/Z hunters think or are willing to admit because of possible involvement and or crooked cops. Plenty of them still around also.

Bruce is once again up for parole and Nancy Pitman is running around loose. THEY KNOW.

Robin Smith
10/11/2015 09:25:13 am

BTW...FYI..."Dirty Harry" is not a joke.

When I suggested that people watch this movie, that was released Dec 23, 1971, I was not making fun or joking! Pretty interesting for these youngsters and foreigners that have zero idea what SF was like in the late 60's and early 70's.

The cars, scenery and streets of SF as they were in 1970....right up to and including the crooked cops, SF Mayor Joe Alioto and the Mob.

These 'connections' included all of the Z suspects and the F.B.I. Don't forget that bunch...
.
It's literally all there in Technicolor:) and the plus factor you get to watch CLINT EASTWOOD.

The first time I saw Clint in person was at the Top Of The Wheel...Harvey's Casino...he was married to his first wife Maggie then.

sandy betts link
11/7/2015 12:14:20 pm

Robbin, I agree the Dirty Harry movie is a must see movie. It is based on the Zodiac killer and has some of the true Zodiac letters shown.
Did you know that there was a ransom note written in the Ramsey case that mentioned the Dirty Harry movie ? Was that a clue to her killer ? I believe that Zodiac is still around and killing, sometimes calling the police, sometimes writing notes/letters that are thought to be a copy cat. There were 12 female murders in Pittsburg Ca. late 80's to mid 90's , a person calling himself Zodiac claimed he was the killer. The police felt it had to be a hoax and swept it under the rug ????? Yet they did believe the girls were killed by a serial killer .I did my own stake out in that area and found my suspect trolling there. Soon after that ,the killings stopped .If we can find out who the man Darlene and Jim went to the Virgin Islands with , who was called "Honcho", I do believe he is the real Zodiac. I asked Jim Phillips about that name , he gave a strange answer of it : Could be Dee's dog ? Was Honcho the man who Jim was living with in Mexico who brought gifts to Darlene? Sounds like a cover up if you ask me.

Robin Smith
11/11/2015 10:10:07 am

Sandy hi....

Do you happen to have any knowledge of Kane's Mother...Sarah Benjamin Klein? Alex has very little about Mother Kane the other big sticking point with me is the ex wife(Sylvia) of Robert E Hunter Jr...do you happen to have any info about when they were divorced? It looks like they were divorced right in the middle of all this mess. I'm like you in the respect that 'looks' like is not good enough:)..

However Sylvia and "Bob" divorcing - DIVORCE in the day was not a common thing, she being Catholic and very up there in SF society.

I am not ignoring the questions of yours. Just trying to clear these two females from my curiosity list...something there for sure!!!

sandy betts link
11/12/2015 11:27:00 am

Robin, I looked for any information about Sarah B Kane aka Klein and there were too many to narrow down anything on her. I do know she lived with Larry for a long time in Lake Tahoe. I did find one born 8-22-1896 who died about the time I was told by Harvey. But that one died in March 1982 in NY. I found a Morris Klein who married a Sarah Friedman in Manhattan on 2-7-1931 sort of late to be Larry's parents, I do know the father was from Hungary and Sarah was from Russia , they went to NY where Larry was born .Larry's father was a shoe salesman. If I can find more I will post it .

galaxie500
11/14/2015 07:49:44 am

Sandy/Robin -

I'll be posting some information about Kane's mother at Ricardo's website (under the "Larry Kaye article NY NY' thread) within the next day or so. Be on the lookout.

Tahoedirt link
11/24/2017 10:21:49 pm

In the Dirty Harry movie the guy was called Scorpio, I believe ??

sandy betts link
11/12/2015 11:50:59 am

About Robt. E Hunter and Sylvia.I could not find any divorce in Caif. or NV.for them. I did find when they were married , 8-28-1949 in Pasadena Ca. Robt. E Hunter was born 5-23-1922, died 10-1-2013 in Glen Ellen, Sonoma Co. His mother was Gwendolyn M Hunter . Robt. Hunter went to Yale as did Sylvia Catherine Morton 9-1941-2-1944. He was a credit analyst for Crocker Bank on Montgomery st S.F.they lived 2867 Green st S.F.(No date). He majored in International relations , was in the Marine corps 4-1942 to 7-1946 NY. Other address were 244 California st. 145 Laural st. 9369 Lloyd crest dr. Beverly Hills ca. in 1983 lived at 3799 Washington st.( Crime scene address)
I didn't see the address that I found for them in 1969, which was Lyon st.SF. Harry Martin was mistaken when he said Robt.E Hunter was living at 3799 Washington on Oct 11th 1969. I and Ed Neil proved that to be false. Again if I find more I will post it.

codebreaker
12/5/2015 02:13:33 am

I have been very interested for some time now in ciphers that have yet to be decoded. The Zodiac Killer Ciphers are one of the many that i have been trying to decipher. I came across the headline about this case. I have been working on the two lines of cipher and am still doing so. However, I have done some extensive work on other ciphers of the Zodiac killer. I have recently been reworking the identity or ; " My Name Is ... " Cipher, and came up with ED W. HERSHE.

sandy betts link
12/6/2015 10:18:26 am

codebreaker, I have tinkered around with all of the unsolved codes.
I was told that many people will change the letters for the symbols to make names they feel is Zodiac's name.
I used the solved codes as my Rosetta Stone. I also use the clues left for me by suspect whom I believe is the true Zodiac. He left me a note for the 18 letters at the bottom of 3 part cipher. It was very close to what it was thought to be by LE and others.
His was more like : Me thee hippie Robert . The clue he wrote at the bottom of that note for me was : 5 E's the 5th letter. If I read it correctly, then perhaps he was telling me to look at the 5th letter in his cipher , that would be H which is the initial for the letter of his last name, which I have always felt were the initials of the Zodiac R.H. Like what was at the bottom of the Riverside poem.
In the my name cipher I found that the K in the middle represented " /," but if you turn it" \" then it becomes R.
In that cipher I got the R and the last name of my suspect. H - - - - - - - Z . The 3 -8s or Taurus symbols may not be anything other than to complicate the code.
I still think that Zodiac got his ideas about ciphers from the movie My Secret Weapon. In that movie the cipher sent 3 that were solved but the 4th was much harder like the 340. In the movie it was a mirror image cipher. Could the 340 be a mirror image ?
The celebrity cipher shows ROBT as plain as day at least twice ?
I will find my notes that show his whole name in one of the ciphers , I don't remember which cipher it was at the moment.
He is still alive so I can only show parts of his name, with out upsetting him to do something harmful to me. He has threatened me by telling me to stop investigating him. He lets me know that he is still around.

Alex Lewis
2/7/2016 12:18:36 am

It can be decoded to whatever the person decoding wants, this one line of symbols with several symbols repeating makes accurate decryption almost impossible to decode it and say with 99.9% certainty this or that is what it reveals. You need the key.

Ed W. Hershe can also become...

Steve West
Ed Steve Nelson
Donald Jacob
Sean E. Nash
Eddy Sender

And another very specific and relevant place name of 'SAHARA TAHOE' is also available.

D. Beat
2/21/2016 11:20:21 pm

Hunter was senior vice president and national director for crocker from April 1968 to Nov. 74. He was transfered to so. Decision in 68 and lived at 1138 Arden Dr pasadenia. He had a cadre of 112 officers working under him in s.f Fresno and los Angeles. Wilcox crocker president didn't like him so he quit. He went to wells Fargo and he was fired on Feb. 28 and his records were sealed Feb. 1978

sandy betts link
2/22/2016 11:01:15 am

D.Beat, You have done some very good investigating on Robt.Hunter Jr.
Pretty interesting that he was down south in 1968 ? Did you know that he and Sylvia went to PA around that time as well ? His father who I am told Donna Lass worked for, was a happily married man. I was sorry to hear people trying to make it out to be some sort of an affair they were having. I really rather doubt that took place.
Hunter became a suspect because it was thought that he lived at the home where Paul Stine's cab was parked when he was shot. That is untrue, so he should not be on the suspect list.

codebreaker
12/8/2015 03:45:35 pm

Sandy,
I'd like to see some of the work posted that you have done when you find it. How old would the celebrity be that you are mentioning in your post?
I've also been working on the two line cipher. The first line deciphers to, " CIOEUIEEWGSEIAEED ", or " SEE I OWE YOU I(ONE) GEW(JEW) I SEE DEAD ". The second line deciphers to, "IIFNNNNLIEEEIEYYN ", or " II(TWO) FNNNN(FOREIGN) EYEEYE(EYES) LIE WITHIN ". The message is, " SEE I OWE YOU ONE JEW I SEE DEAD ". " TWO FOREIGN EYES LIE WITHIN ". From what I have learned, Donna was the daughter of Russian/Jewish Immigrants. Also, Zodiac Killer was very predjudiced.

sandy betts link
12/10/2015 11:27:18 pm

Codebreaker, It looks like you have figured out a lot of the words in the two line cipher. You could be right about the foreign eyes being a clue. But Donna Lass went missing 3 months after the two line cipher was sent, the foreign eyes I think he was referring to, could have been his own ?
The other words: "See I owe you" , are very much like what was sent to me by my suspect . He drew me a picture of what I assumed was him pushing me into a deep hole. Above the picture, written upside down was : U I O as in You I owe.
I feel you are correct in saying Zodiac is very prejudiced. I noticed that there were a lot of things pointing to his dislike for Germans. Darlene's maiden name was German, Cheri Jo Bates drove a German car, so did Hartnell. Paul Stine I believe was German ? Do you know of any Jewish victims before June 1970 ? We should see if the Swindles were?

D. Beat
2/22/2016 12:30:41 pm

All that stuff about having an affair with hunter sr. And put into the will is Harry Martins b.s. he injected into Rosaia's story. As far as R.H. not living there at the time. I knew that. So what. He was giving clues to his future address. He knew he was going to get the place. No one's gonna give clues to his name and led you to his front door at the time of the murder. But to move in several months later.no one suspects you. Did you know (Robert Emmett the hippie) corralates to both his properties in sanoma and s.f. others to much continuity with. R.h. know one talks about. Everyone dismantles or deletes. So why bother. R.H. was worse then Zodiac.

Rick A. Roberts
12/10/2015 01:03:06 am

Sandy,
I have been working on Z340 CIPHER of the Zodiac killer. The last line that begins with " C " and ends with " + ", of the cipher. IT deciphers to, " SVEHGTNEIADENEWTSIE ", or " SEVEN DIE IN HUNTINGTON AND I WASTED THEM ". The bottom of the paper has an, " OUTLINE of a Circle ", with a " Cross " in it. The Circle is the letter, " D ", and the Cross is the letter, " E ", or ED. Could this be ED W. HERSHE ?

sandy betts link
12/10/2015 09:01:45 am

Rick A. Roberts, I thought the Zodiac's logo was used for the letters Z and D? My thought on why he would use the letter D for his logo , is that he has such a "huge" ego , why wouldn't the letter D be a clue to his first name or his last ? I do have one suspect who has D.D.D. for his initials, he is a foreigner from another country. Which can explain his misspellings. Some of it could have been on purpose, to cover up the fact that he is a poor speller.
I took a picture of some writing on a wall at the corner of my home, it read : 7 in a row. It was written in the early 90's in red letters. I wonder if the 7 in your cipher pertains to that 7 or the 7 in a row that Zodiac claims as his victims in northern Ca.? Like I have mentioned before I do believe that there were at least two evil men working in tandem. One being R.H., the other perhaps DDD. Thanks to both of you for your cipher solutions. I will post mine as soon as I find my notes on them.
One fascinating coincidence I have with the one suspect I took a picture of, is that he has a circle scar on his cheek that has a cross inside of that circle. On his chin is a Z like scar. That one was described by K Johns as a two line scar on his chin. If this is the same man with the scars , Kathleen wasn't able to see the very thin scar that connected the two she saw on his chin making it a Z.

sandy betts link
12/10/2015 08:36:36 am

Codebreaker, The Celebrity Cipher was postmarked Oakland Sept 25th 1990. It was addressed Vallejo Times Herold ( sic)
The card was titled "Sandy Beaches", California.

I believe that if it was from Zodiac, he could be telling us that he was hunting for victims on the Sandy Beaches in Ca.
Like Jenner perhaps ?

Alex Lewis
2/8/2016 04:49:38 am

Sandy, remind me please Hun as it has slipped my memory: Why was this post-card referred to as 'The Celebrity Cipher?'


I only ask because recently I been thinking of Bryan Hartnell's immediate post crime statement from the confines of A Gurney (but when the memory and voice of His attacker would be at it's most fresh) in which He mentioned "And His (Z's) voice, I'm sure I''ve heard it somewhere before but just cannot think for a darn where from. I gave up on that angle anyway."

sandy betts link
2/9/2016 07:40:36 pm

Alex, If I remember correctly , the VTH paper had a weekly game like some papers have cross word puzzles . Only the VTH paper had a game with clues to a different celebrity weekly. "Someone" sent in a card that we call the celebrity cipher, because it had a cipher. How or why it was believed to be sent by Zodiac I am not clear on, but I will try and find out. I found it interesting partly because I was being bothered by a man who was claiming he is Zodiac and the idea that the words "Sandy" Beaches was what the card had on it. It was mailed two days before the Lake B anniversary. What looked like the name Robt on that card jumped out at me when I saw it for the first time. I read once that LE felt that the Zodiac's first name was Robert. Do I believe that card was a communication from Zodiac ? Yes I do and I felt it was a warning from him to couples on the beaches in Calif.

BayArea60s
11/20/2016 06:27:59 am

Not to add total confusion here, but I recently found myself reading ALA stuff I hadn't read in years. I believe it was Bawart who revealed that Robert Emmett was a classmate of ALA, they were on the HS swim team together. ALA I guess never liked the guy. It was stated that emmett went to school at Berkeley and did become a hippee, moved to Europe....I was going to look back through ALA's yearbook and see if this guy was real or not, just haven't done so as yet....Found it strange.....

Rick A. Roberts (CB)
12/10/2015 05:23:42 pm

Sandy,
I believe that I made a mistake about the Circle Outline with the Cross inside of it. When I went back and looked at this character of the cipher in my previous work, I found that it represents the letter, " D ". I think that you are on to something with the letter, " D ", or name is D.D.D. . Here is the cipher; " C, (Circle Outline with Cross in it), W, Backwards " C " ", P, O, S, H, T ", or " SDEVINATS ". This deciphers to, " FIVE IN SAINT SS ", or " FIVE IN SAINT SIMEON ". Also I have another cipher of the Zodiac Killer that is about the location of the bomb.The cipher is, " W, <, Triangle with period in it, perpendicular sign, B, outline of square, Y, O, B ", or " YOU ARE IN ONE " . Another cipher is, " N, backwards P, backwards K, S, circle outline with cross in it, Z, O, triangle filled in, A ", or " NEIADENST ", " END IN EAST ". Also a cipher that reads, " L, circle filled in, circle with top half filled in, C, <, +, F, J, W ", or " TTISNESAE ", " SETS IN EAST ". Cipher is, " C ... triangle outline ", or "SIFKLNIRWHDS(END)NGOAOESNBXLTSHDIEL ", or " IS IN FRONT LEFT CORNER NEAR WOODS END AND GO ACROSS SAND BOX LIGHTS SET I DIE ".The complete message is, " SETS IN EAST- FIVE IN SAINT SS(SIMEON) -YOU ARE IN ONE END IN EAST - IS IN FRONT LEFT CORNER NEAR WOODS END AND GO ACROSS SAND BOX LIGHTS SET I DIE ". I've got to go back and look at my work on the " MY NAME IS ... " Cipher.

sandy betts link
12/10/2015 10:54:01 pm

Rick, You should be very proud of the hard work you have done.
Something jumped out at me in your solution." Saint Simeon". The Saint reminds me of the letter to Donna Lass's sister Mary. In that card he used the word Saint. The word Simeon had me thinking of San Simeon a street in Concord Ca. also San Simeon is where William Randolph Hearst has his famous castle. Hearst built the newspaper chain and owned The SF Examiner and Chronical ? We know how important those two papers were to Zodiac. I wonder what is meant by :sets in the east? Could it be the bomb is set to go off in the east bay area ? That is where we all thought the arrow pointed. I can't think of any woods in that area other than Mt Diablo or Marsh Creek.

Tahoedirt link
11/25/2017 02:36:35 am

Found it somewhat interesting that one of the sharp turns on the road to the top of Mt Diable is called "school bus corner"

Rick A. Roberts(CB)
12/11/2015 05:08:51 am

Sandy,
Thank you very much. I have worked several days on the ciphers. I believe that you are correct about the Zodiac Killer referring to his own eyes as " Foreign Eyes ".I've been working on the Post Card Cipher. The first line of cipher on the left side was. " Circle Outline with Cross, R, O, Square with right diagonal side 1/2 filled in, + ", or " D, G, N, L, E ", and deciphers to what I believe is " GLENDALE ". The second line of cipher is, " Backwards D, I, V, O with line through horizontally, Y, Square filled in, Backwards L, Backwards P ", or " O, T, B, H, U, L, A, E ", and this deciphers to, " BOTH ULAE ". From what I learned, ULAE was Universal Limited Art Editions and published fine art. It was established in 1957 in San Francisco. Was the postcard made by this company? The third line of cipher reads, " I, Z, Y, +, F, B, I, >, Backwards C, + ", or " T, E, U, E, S, L, T, E, V, E ", or " N, N, U, T, E, T, S, L, A ", and deciphers to, " LIEUT(LIEUTENANT) STEVE ". Is this referring to Steve Hodel who was a LAPD Homicide Detective at the time? Is this the same man who claimed that his Father was the Zodiac Killer? The fourth and final line of cipher on the left side reads, " O, <, Y, L, >, Filled in Circle, F, L, A ", or " N, U, T, E, T, S, L, A " or " SUNSET, LA ". Sunset, LA was known as Old Sunset in Kern County, East of Hazelton, California.

Rick A. Roberts(CB)
12/11/2015 05:31:46 am

Sandy,
Here is the right side of the Post Card Cipher. The first line reads, " Y, Square Outline, Circle Left Side filled in Vertically, M ", or " U, Y, I, H " and deciphers to, " HI YU " or " HI YOU ". The second line of cipher is, " M, Backwards D, Circle Outline with Cross Centered in it, Triangle outline, M, Backwards P ", or " H, O, D, I, H, E ", and deciphers to " HI DE HO ". The third line reads, " I, Q ", or " T, M ". This could decipher to " MT " or " EMPTY " or " MT " or " MOUNT(MOUNTAIN)? Fourth line is " Circle outline, R, O, Square with right diagonal side filled in, + ", or " GLENDALE ". Fifth and final line of cipher is, " Backwards D, T, V, O with line horizontally through it, Y, Square filled in, Backwards L, E " or " O, T, B, H, U, L, A, E ", and deciphers to " BOTH ULAE ".
Sandy, I think you are right about the reference to the newspapers. I read that there were four playgrounds at that time that had sand boxes in them. I thought perhaps that the bomb might have been set in the East End of one of these sand boxes at or near Mount Diablo. Could this be the " TM" or " MT" written on the right side of the Post Card Cipher?

Rick A. Roberts(CB)
12/12/2015 01:21:42 pm

Sandy,
I've been working more on the " MY NAME IS " CIPHER. Here is my deciphering of the four lines of code preceding the " MY NAME IS " Cipher. First line of cipher is, ' R, Backwards C, T, +, L, Circle Filled in, Circle Top Half Filled in, C, <, +, F, J, W, B, I, Circle with Cross Centered in it, L ", or " GGSETTISNESAELTDT ", or " GETTING LATE EDS SET ". The second line of cipher reads, " +, +, Circle with horizontal line through center, W, C, Circle with Cross centered in it, W, Backwards C, P, O, S, H, T, /, circle with Vertical line through Center of it, Circle with Top Half Filled in, Backwards p ", or " EDDIES SKATING IN ". The third line of cipher reads, " I, F, Backwards K, Backwards D, W, <, Triangle with Period in Center, Perpendicular Sign, B, Square Outlin, Y, O, B, Square with Right Diagonal Side Half filled in, - , C, Backwards C ", or " TSIOENARLYUNLESSG ". The fourth line of cipher reads, " *, >, M, D, H, N, Backwards P, Backwards K, S, Z, O, Triangle Filled in, A, I, K, I(Period in front of it in center of letter), + ", or " EHGTNEIAENATTSISE ", or " EIGHTEEN AT S ANISE ST ".

Rick A. Roberts(CB)
12/12/2015 01:58:33 pm

Sandy, The third line of decoded cipher should read, " TSIOENARLYUNLESSG ", or " EARLY UNLESS I GET NOS EIGHTEEN ". The complete message is, " GETTING LATE EDS SET EDDIES SKATING IN EARLY UNLESS I GET NOS EIGHTEEN AT S ANISE ST ". Here is my work on the thirteen character, " MY NAME IS __ " Cipher. The cipher is, " A, E, N, Circle with Cross, Circle with 8, K, Circle with 8, M, Circle with 8, Perpendicular Sign, N, A, M ", or " WEEDSHERSH ", or EDW. W. HERSH . The three Circles with an 8 in center of them are each a period mark(.) . Ten letters plus three periods = thirteen characters. Sandy the name HERSH is also spelled differently starting with the letter, " H " and ending with the letter, " Z", just as you had found in your earlier message that you posted. Hersh is the westernized version of the name.

Rick A. Roberts
12/12/2015 02:31:42 pm

Sandy,
I've been looking at the Halloween Card also. Especially the cipher signed on the card. It appears to be the Letter, " Z " and the letter " F " joined together, with four dots or Periods. Where the " Z " and the " F ' meet, there are two " L ";s formed also. So, I believe that " L " = " T ", " F ", " Z " = " E ", " F " = " S ", and there are four Dots or Periods for " FOR ". This deciphers to, " TEST FOR ". Next to this is the letter, " Z " and " Circle with Cross Centered in it ". " Z " = " E " and " Circle with Cross centered in it " = " D " . This deciphers to, " ED ". The message I believe is, " TEST FOR ED ".

Rick A. Roberts(CB)
12/12/2015 02:36:40 pm

My previous post had an error in it. The fourth line should read, " So, I believe that " L " = " T ", " Z " = " E ", " F " = " S ", and there are four Dots or Periods for " FOR ".

sandy betts link
12/13/2015 08:36:32 am

Rick and Codebreaker, I found one of my code notes. The my name code : K =/ reverse it \ R
I have : EZND"R" ERNAH reading as R. Hernandez. The 8's I have as the eight letter of the alphabet H , could be 3 H's for Hernandez the 3rd ?
The ebeorietemethhpiti that the Hardens got, I used those as e=e , b=b ,e=e, o=o, r =r, (exclude the i's for now) e =n, t upside down = r, e=z , m upside down=a , e=e, t=t , h=h, his circle with horizontal line through it, turn it sideways it becomes n,
p turned backwards = e =z=d , t upside-down =r . I got EBEORNRZAETHNDR =Robert HernandeZ
The triangle used for the i's is only my guess and that is if you color it in it becomes A. You take the 3 -8's = H's from the my name cipher and add the 3 A's you get Ha Ha Ha. The i's could be put there to add to the confusion like I believe the 8's were.? Or the i's for " 3 eyes" ? 3 Foreign eyes ? Zodiac has a thing for eyes , like the eyes on the Halloween card. Too much coffee this morning LOL.

As I posted before that last line I was told by my suspect = Itmethe hipierobeet

sandy betts link
12/13/2015 07:15:12 am

Rick , I tend to go by the clues that are given to me by my suspect. The Halloween card symbol is actually a crude drawing of Mt. Diablo according to my suspect. The 4 dots are either 4people involved in the Zodiac crimes or they represent 4 victims two in Walnut Creek one in clayton the other in Brentwood. He drew me a map of where his victims were, on that map he drew the Halloween card symbol for Mt. Diablo.I live on the north east side of that Mountain and I am an artist, so I have always felt that symbol was in fact his drawing of Mt. Diablo. On his map there are 73 victims. He claimed three in San Jose , my guess is he was claiming Snoozy and Furlong then Dick Hanson.who was followed late night 4-29-1991and shot with a nine mil.I didn't write the date that I received the map, ( huge mistake)but my guess is it was soon after 1991 or there about.
I see that you come up with the name Ed, Eddie, that is close to Ted, For some time Ted Bundy's murders were thought to be Zodiac's. Could there be a T in front of ed ?
Could ED be an abbreviation for educator , like a teacher ?

Rick A. Roberts
12/13/2015 10:39:50 pm

Sandy,
In my deciphering of the Eighteen Letter Cipher the letter " Z " = " E ", and the " Circle Outline with the Cross inside of it " = " D ". The two next to each other is, " ED " The Halloween Post Card is signed with these two characters also. The " MY NAME IS CIPHER -- " deciphers to, " EDW. W. HERSHE ". This name is also known as, " " EDW. W. HERSHKOWITZ " or " HERSKOWITZ ".
I did some research on the Eighteen Letter Cipher. I found an article on the Internet about it from 06 December, 2013. There is a statue of a Robert Emmet from the 1700's in San Francisco at the Golden Gate Park. He is referred to as " Robert Emmet the Hippie '. He is seen as a role model to " Diggers "(People that take items for free)
and Hippies. Perhaps this is where your suspect got his idea from.
I looked at the letter to Donna's Sister. I noticed something about it. It reads, " STDONNA-P-O-IGUARDIAN-M-A-SO F-D-S-ATHEPINES ". " APOI " deciphers to, " TINT ". " NMAS " deciphers to, " NHTA ", or " THAN ". " FDSA " deciphers to, " SGAT ", or " TAGS ". I do not know the significance of these three words in the letter.
Also, I did some research on the Swindles. I found out that they lived at Ocean Breeze Apartments in San Diego, California. The apartments were once known as Ocean Breeze Hotel(Built in 1919) and it had a skating rink. I wonder if this ties to the Post Card that I posted about previously? This is the " ... EDDIES SKATING IN EARLY... " message? Could it have a double meaning? It seems like the Zodiac Killer liked to be witty about his writings.
Sandy, I think that you may be right about there being two Zodiac Killers. Also, your idea about the " HA HA HA " in your deciphering seem to go along with the deciphering of the Post Card that I posted before, of " HI DE HO " and the type of personality of the Zodiac(s).

sandy betts link
12/14/2015 07:46:19 am

Rick, I can't dispute your findings on Ed H. There have been clues given to me, including a phone call, where my suspect said : Its been a long time to bust four. Other clues telling me that there were four people in his group. Hard to believe, but when you put together the counterfeiting group in Vallejo and Darlene's participation with that group, it is possible. She may have been about to tell police about the group and had to be killed before she did. That would also make sense of her comment to her mother , that she would be in the newspaper. Don Porter who I dated at that time, mentioned the name Dee in front of me. He was laundering some of the phony money, so he knew these people. I had no idea that he was involved in that group until he was caught. He told me that two of the men who brought the money plates to Vallejo, were from Chicago. He never told me their names .It could be that because I dated one of them, the main man who could be my suspect started to stalk me I just don't know for sure. It could also be that I was dating Buzz Gordon, who went out with Darlene one time. At least that is what Buzz told me, only one time he said. The police at that time mentioned the Zodiac's first name could be Robert or Bob, I do believe they were right. If the killers name was 12 letters long Bob H would fit, if it were 13 letters long then I would include the middle initial. The Riverside desk top poem was signed RH and I think that could be the biggest clue we have for one of the Zodiac's names.
St Donna Guardian of the pines, I think was his way of saying she was a good girl and that she is buried at a spot where she can over look the pine trees. Clues took me to Clair Tappin Lodge in Norden. I think she is in a deep hole on that moutian side over looking the pines. I don't think there was a hidden message in everything he wrote. But for sure he used double meanings .
The Hi DE Ho you found could be from a song that I can't remember the title to , but it went like Hi De Hi , Hi De Ho in one of the lines.
I went to the Swindles crime scene and their apt, I do feel that this could have been a Z crime. I found the perfect spot for the shooter to shoot them from ,with out being seen from the apts that over looked the crime scene. The noise of the ocean would have muffled the sound of a 22. I wish that that police dept. would compare the 22 bullets to Benicia's, to see if there could be a connection.

Rick A. Roberts
12/15/2015 10:35:33 pm

Sandy,
The more that i work on this enigma, the more perplexed I get. I was looking at your work and your idea about the number " 8 " in the three " Circle Outline with an " 8 " Centered in each on. I think that you are correct about the number eight representing the letter " H ". This would be H.H.H., and was Dr. Hodel's initials. His son Steve who was a Lieutenant in the Police Department and when I deciphered the Post Card (See Posting on 11 December, 2015), where " LIEUT(LIEUTENANT) STEVE appears. He thought that his Dad was the Black Dahlia and the Zodiac Killer. Keeping in mind the apparent use of double meanings, I took another try at the thirteen character, " MY NAME IS __ " Cipher. Considering the three " 8 "s as the letters HHH, or H.H.H., I have left; " TENDOLONOINTH " and I saw a hidden meaning in this by placing the three " H "s back into the code and deciphered it to, " TENDHOLONOOINTH " HOLDEN TOOTH IN TOOTH ".
I think you are right about Darlene knowing too much. Also I am very interested in the Halloween Card being a crude drawing of Mount Diablo. This got me thinking last night. I wonder if the crude drawing of Mount Diablo could be superimposed over the LOCATION of the BOMBS drawing on the Phillips 66 Map to locate the location of the bomb(s) by pinpointing these locations using the dots or periods on the Mount Diablo Drawing? I think that there was the group of four as you had learned, and that these four may each have written some of the Zodiac items.
I had not looked at the Riverside Desk Top Poem until you posted about it. I saw the letters signed " RH " at the bottom of the poem and I think that are right. Also, I did not know about the counterfeit ring until you mentioned it in your posted message.

Rick A. Roberts
12/15/2015 10:44:17 pm

Sandy,
Another thought came to me, and I wanted to post it before I forgot about it. Maybe the four dots or periods on the Halloween Card were the geographic locations of the four( BUST FOUR) mentioned by your suspect to you. This idea struck me as I looked at your posting about the suspect and what he had said to you he phoned you.
Sandy, I forgot to ask you what type of art you create. Thanks.

sandy betts link
12/16/2015 08:12:27 am


Rick, That is exactly what I think the 4 dots represent, the 4 people involved Working in tandem ) Two of them on the east side of Mt Diablo , one north east , other south east . The two on the west side , one north west (perhaps Vallejo) The other south west like
( Berkeley , Oakland ,Hayward , Fremont area )

Yes he has phoned me many times, never saying he is Zodiac, just : Its Me or this is your secret admirer. The one who talks slowly in the monotoned voice, was the one who had the shaved head , chain smoked, wore the clothes like what K. Johns said her abductor wore. ( On purpose I believe) The license plate of the car he drove that night belonged to Robert H. He tried very hard to disguise himself to look like the Robt. H that I knew. But the one I know has blue eyes and the one pretending to be him has hazel eyes, very bad teeth. I believe that he is the man who went after my friend that got that plate number for me and disemboweled him 8 months later on my birthday ! It was as if he was say to me: this is what you get bitch for involving your friend, happy birthday.

sandy betts link
12/16/2015 08:22:00 am

Rick, I forgot to answer your question about my art. I do oil painting, water color , acrylics, sculptures, faux finishing walls. I love painting sunsets. Dn't care for abstract at all. I have drawn a age progression picture of what I think Zodiac could have looked like in 1990. It is on Morf's site"Zodiackillersite"under Sandy's poi.

Rick A. Roberts
12/17/2015 02:49:27 pm

Sandy,
I was looking at the note that the man had left you on 1/7/85. The " People are Talking " note. it has " 478 KPIX " written on it. I deciphered 478 to the letters " DGH ". The letters KPIX deciphered to " LIRO ". I entered LIRO into the internet and this appeared; " Libro Quinto de los Secretes ". The " BOOK of Secrets of Agriculture Cottage and Pastoral ". The last line was " FIN DE LA OBRA ". This translates as follows; " Fin = End, Aim, De = From, Of, La = The, Her, and OBRA = Work, Deed, Task, Play ". This translates in Spanish to approximately, " End of The(Her) Work(Task), or combination of the translated words. This was on page 478 of this book.

sandy betts link
12/17/2015 11:51:00 pm


Rick, I wasn't sure when I received that note, I thought it was 1987 or 88?
1-7-85 I think was the date my suspect wrote the date of the People are Talking TV show, for me to check to see who was on the show for that day. I checked it out and 1-7-86 Robert Graysmith was on the show talking about the Zodiac book he had just written. The 478 KPIX was the phone number for the show.KPIX was channel 5's call letters.( Like KGO is channel 7)
In that note he wanted me to know that he stalked his second victim and that he did in fact have a white Chevy Impala , but he wasn't sure if it was a 62 or 63. The car I saw him driving in Vallejo, 1968, looked like a light golden brown Mercury Comet, no chrome. It was very much like Darlene's Corvair, but a bit larger. The other thing about that note , he wrote : #1 in his 40's now. Did he mean that in 1969 he was in is 40's, or when he gave me the note? #1 meaning more than one killer like I believe ? In 1990 when I took his picture , I felt he was about 50 yrs old at that time. Making him about 29 yrs old in 1969. 29 is in the correct age range for Paul Stine's shooter.

Rick A. Roberts
12/17/2015 10:53:54 pm

Sandy,
I went and looked at the progressive age drawing that you did of the Zodiac Killer. I'd like to see some of your Artwork. Do you create sculptures formed of metal(s) ? On my previous posing, I came up with the initials D.G.H. as perhaps the man that left the, " 478 KPIX " note for you. Could this be the R.H. that you suspect ? Also " D.G.H. ", has the letter " D " for his first name. Could this be why he used the character " Circle with Cross Centered in it " ?

Rick A. Roberts
12/18/2015 01:24:04 am

Sandy,
Sorry about my mix-up. I thought that I had something there. I believe as you do, that there was more that one killer. At least two, and maybe even four involved. I used to have a dark blue 1960 Model 900 Corvair that had a gas heater and a two speed automatic transmission. That was the first year that they were made. It was in super condition with the dual carb's. I've got to look again at the note posted on the Internet.
Sandy, was there a television channel KRNE or KRON in the area ? One of my deciphered code works mentions this station. The deciphered message read, " THE DAY I DIE ON DEPENDS - ALL EYES REST ON - SEE CHANNEL KRNE ( KRON ?) ".

Sandy betts link
1/4/2016 09:47:37 am

Rick, We do have a local channel 4 KRON. Again the number 4. Did your Corvair have bucket seats and a center console ? If not, do you remember what yr of Corvair before 1968 did ?

Your post before this one about the letter D is also the" 4th" letter in the alphabet.

Rick A. Roberts
1/4/2016 11:21:55 pm

Sandy,
My Corvair did not have bucket seats or a center console, but from 1960 to 1969 bucket seats were available for the front seats. My car had a bench seat in the front and back of it. Some of the Corvairs could have bucket seats in the back too. I believe as you do that there were multiple persons involved in the Zodiac Killings. I also think that there were four individuals involved, and the each of them had a last name that started with the letter, " H " .

Tahoedirt link
11/25/2017 02:41:23 am

Sandy- A buddy had a 62-63 Corvair and I was kind of a car guy. The Corvair came in 3 sub models, with the "Monza Spyder" being top,of the line. I think it had a factory console, but I don't believe the others did- However, you can buy a slip in console for any car ?? Late... But Hope that helps ??

Rick A. Roberts
12/24/2015 11:29:59 pm

Sandy,
I was looking at the 340 CIPHER EXPLAINED and found some more Zodiac Cipher to work on. The first line reads, " FPTP " or " SIEE ", and this deciphers to " I SEE ". The second line reads, " C, (Backwards K), F, > " or " TISI ", and deciphers to " IT IS ". The third line reads, " XGV. " or " PNNE ", and deciphers to " PENNE ", or " PENNY ". The message is, " I SEE IT IS PENNY ". I wonder who Penny is or was ? Do you know ? Thanks.
Happy Holiday to you !

sandy betts link
1/4/2016 09:41:25 am

Rick , About the name Penny. Robert Graysmith told me that he used the name Penny in his first book and that it was the name of one of his old girl friends.
I use to see penny's on my porch and drive way as some clue he was leaving, but had a hard time trying to figure that one out.
Then I realized that the penny has the head of Lincoln on it. The Lincoln car had a logo very much like the Zodiac's logo.. So he was telling me that he is Zodiac and that he was here, is my best guess?

Rick A. Roberts
1/4/2016 11:34:28 pm

Sandy,
I think that there is definitely a connection here. Do you remember how many penny coins were on your porch and or driveway when you found them ? I wonder if it was four ? If it was, perhaps this was a clue that was pointing to the four people involved and this also ties to the Mt.Diablo Drawing that had their locations placed by the dots or periods used.

Rick A. Roberts
1/3/2016 11:39:00 pm

Sandy,
My posting on 12 December, 2015 referred to the " MY NAME IS __ " CIPHER. In my posting I deciphered the code and came up with, " HOLDEN TOOTH IN TOOTH ", and the initials HHH . I did some more checking, and found, if I remember correctly, that Dr. Hodel's Father was a dentist. Was Dr. Hodel, the Father of Steve Hodel (Lieutenant in Police department), a Dentist also ?

sandy betts link
1/31/2016 02:32:57 pm

Rick I don't think Dr Hodel was a dentist and yes he was Steve's father.
Alex Lewis is MIA and I am worried about him, if he is reading this , please send me an email Alex!

Rick about how many coins were in my drive way , I wish I remembered, but I don't. The number 4 is also the letter D in the alphabet. That is used for the Zodiac's logo in cyphers and is the first letter in both the first name and last name of one of my suspects, the one I took the picture of. It doesn't surprise me that the letter D and the Z logo go hand in hand and could very well be a clue to Zodiac's name?

Alex Lewis
2/3/2016 03:35:38 am

"Alex Lewis is MIA!"

Well as long as it's MIA not CIA, that's ok. I do wish someone would tell me though when I go Missing in Action next time because I had no idea I was MIA because I thought I was still here lol.

Richard
2/3/2016 03:45:34 am

According to Zodiac Killer Site forum you have your own thread with Chappie MIA. I tried to point them in the right direction and assure them you were very well alive and kicking, but I think it fell on deaf ears. Please come back Mr Welsh. I think it proves one thing mind, that none of them are interested in this site. Oh well.

Alex Lewis
2/3/2016 04:10:58 am

Yes but Richard these people are far too important to allow themselves to listen to people like you & I Richard, how many more times do I need remind you Richard, these people have been on radio talk shows, pod-casts and even A Web forum with Zodiac in the name.
I told you Richard that posting on a website over there that prides itself in being the online version of North Korea, The Supreme Leader, Mr Kim Jong Morf will ignore you because you have never been on the radio Richard and therefore your obviously an idiot, much like myself who is languishing around in the Welsh Valleys waiting to become important enough to be allowed to speak to defend myself against One of Kim Jung's Moderators.

The British do not Have a UK Constitution and 1st amendment rights and as such, we will be allowed to speak only when permitted by the arrogant pricks who entitle themselves to decide who can speak and who may not.
So I am afraid I had to kindly give the middle finger to this arrogance, which can only be 'deplorable at best.'

Alex Lewis
2/3/2016 04:22:07 am

I mean here we see A Wonderful example of Thomas Void allowing David Van Nuys to open the meeting and Thomas manage to contain himself for just a few seconds longer than one Minute before rudely interrupting David in mid sentence "Sorry David but I have something I wanted to say..,.Hi, I am Tom Voigt The Webmaster of ZK.com...." **get's His whorish cheap applause...." I'd have opened fire if present here then declared "I do apologize Mr Van Nuys, Please, Do continue,,,," Link: https://youtu.be/sUD2n52yYP8?t=1m8s

Rick A. Roberts
2/8/2016 11:44:47 pm

Sandy,
I found that Dr. Hodel was a surgeon and doctor of venereal diseases . However, I found something interesting about where he lived in Los Angeles from 1945 to 1951 . He lived in the " Sowden House ", that was built by Lloyd Wright, the oldest son of Frank Lloyd Wright . The house was referred to as the " Jaws House " . The front of the house had the appearance of the mouth and teeth of a Great White Shark . Also it had a Mayan Temple look to the front of it . I wonder if this ties to one of my deciphered works of the " MY NAME IS _ " Cipher that was " HODEL TOOTH IN TOOTH " ? When I think about Mayans, I also think about a civilization of the past that had many human sacrifices .

sandy betts link
2/9/2016 06:47:26 pm

Rick, If you want to believe that Dr. Hodel was not only the killer of Elizabeth Short and was also the Zodiac killer , I won't argue about why I doubt he was either one. People have made up their minds and they have a right to believe what ever they want to. Real evidence is key to solving any case, without that we have nothing. I happen to believe that the doctor didn't kill anyone.

Rick A. Roberts
2/10/2016 10:33:14 pm

Sandy,
You are right. I want to make take in all of the evidence . I don't know who killed Elizabeth Short . I had no idea about the appearance of the outside of the " Sowden House ", until i recently read about it . I had heard of the " Black Dahlia Murder and Steve Hodel . I am intrigued by the Zodiac Ciphers and Zodiac Letters . Codes are something that I like to figure out, if I can . I have come up with two persons names that have the initials E. H. . I know that you have a definite name that has the initials E. H. also . However Dr. Hodel's initials are H. H. and not E. H. .The idea of four suspect Zodiacs is something that I think is very plausible . I continue to be interested in this mystery . Do you think that Steve Hodel knows anything that has not been revealed, since he was a Detective Lieutenant at the time of the Zodiac Murders ?

sandy betts link
2/11/2016 10:30:32 am

Rick, I think that Steve H put everything he has out there to convince people that his father was Elizabeth Short's killer. He went by a picture he found in his fathers belongings , that he thought was Elizabeth Short. They looked someone alike but she wasn't the Black Dahlia aka Elizabeth Short. You mentioned that I have a EH in one of my solved codes? I have a RH not EH. My suspect gave me a clue, it was like :" Me the hippie Robeet". Then he wrote below that , 5 e's the 5th letter.
Again there is a clue to the name" Robert". I think that the best clue was the RH on the desk at Riverside.
Darlene's sister was given a clue : R P H + ME . Below each of the letters was the Zodiac's logo. If the suspect was telling the truth, then I think that clue represented 4 people or R for Robert P middle initial and H for the last name. On the 340 cipher the beginning is HER, that is the start of what I believe is the first three letters of the killers last name." Not "Herb like some believe.
I think that you will see one of the ciphers works as R Hernandez and another cipher is Robert Hernandez , both fit exactly. except the 3 -8's =H H H like Ha Ha ha ? Or Robert Hernandez the 3rd ? If we go by the clue some have mentioned that the zodiacs name is 12 letters long, then Bob for the first name works for that one as well.
That name of course is like John Smith, there are many people with that name.( I found four of them in one family alone )

sandy betts link
2/22/2016 07:29:11 pm

Apparently my suspect is reading what I have posted about him here. He seems to be very upset by my comments and has started up again harassing me.
So for a while I may have to lay low .I will still of course read, I like this site and the people who post here. You are all good investigators.

Lee
12/10/2017 01:28:55 am

Robert Durst. And one of his helpers was that guy he chopped up, Morris: A drifter with 6 bank accounts full of money.

Haze
2/29/2016 03:34:39 am

Donna Lass worked for a Dr.Reichert correct?

Alex
2/29/2016 07:15:52 am

"Donna Lass worked for a Dr.Reichert correct?"

Yes, according to Harvey's report, she was His personal Travelling Nurse.
Donna applied for the Presidio Job as a result of His passing away.

Rick A. Roberts
3/1/2016 07:22:51 pm

Sandy,
Here are five lines of cipher that I have decoded . First line reads, " H, E, R, >, <, Outline of Square, Outline of Circle with Period Centered in it, Outline of Circle with Vertical Line through Center of it, Outline of Circle with Line Horizontally through it, Outline of Circle, L, L ", or " ENHNTGTNTHEY ", " EN HNTGTN THEY ", or " IN HUNTINGTON THEY ". Second line is, " Outline of Triangle, T, /, Perpendicular Sign, W, B, T ", or " ISKRELS ", " LIKE SRS " or " LIKE SENIORS " . Third line is, " +, +, Outline of Circle with Cross Centered in it, Outline of Circle with Vertical Line through Center of it, Backwards P ", or " EEDNI ", " I NEED " . Fourth line is, " Backwards F, U, Z, /, Outline of Circle with Period in Center of it, Outline of Circle with Period in Center of it " , or " OENKEE ", " NO KEEE " , or " NO KEYS " . Fifth line is, " Triangle with Period Centered in it, Outline of Square, Outline of Circle, A, I, K, I with Period centered on left Side of it, + ", or " AYNTSISE ", or " IN ST ANYSE ", or " SAINT ANISE " . The message is, " IN HUNTINGTON LIKE SENIORS I NEED NO KEYS IN SAINT ANISE " .

sandy betts link
9/2/2016 02:18:19 pm

Rick, You could be correct. Huntington could be the beach area in southern Calif. There is a beach area named "Huntington Beach". I have been there. You should send your solution to the FBI and find out if it is correct or not.

For me the Her is the first 3 letters to the name Hernandez. The cypher with the 3 -8's again the 8th letter of the alphabet =H. Clues to his name?

Rick A. Roberts
9/21/2016 11:15:35 pm

Sandy, it is good to hear from you again. I have not been able to apply myself as much as I have wanted to lately. I am looking at the, " My name is - " letter again and concentrating on it. I was reading another post that you had made earlier on another site. You had posted about receiving a paper sack from an older man when you worked at Bob's Big Boy in Vallejo. It contained a book written by Robert Graysmith that had been autographed by the older man. It was to be given to Ira as a gift. The license number of the light tan/brown Mercury Sable that the older man drove was " 3 888 ". I am now thinking that the " 888 " in the license plate correlates to the three, " Circle with 8 " Characters in the " My name is - " Letter and the older man's identity. Is the number 3 in the license plate number referring to the letters, " HHH " ( " H " being the eighth letter of the alphabet and there being three persons with " H ", being the first letter of each of their last names? Also, who was the picture or photo (older man) of that was given to " Web Master Ryan " ? Could
it be of one of the three possible persons involved as the " Zodiac Killer(s) " ?
Sandy, I am going to work on the thirteen character identity code and remove the 3 " Circle with Eight ", Characters (leaving ten characters) and see what I come up with as far as identities go.

sandy betts link
11/21/2016 09:00:12 pm

Rick, I never worked at Bob's Big Boy. I was told by Ira that the older man had given him a autographed Zodiac book after talking to the boy and saying to him that he was a fan of the Zodiac's. Ira ID'd the picture I took of my suspect as the man who gave him the signed book.That is the man who looks very much like Larry Kane. He is still alive and still calls me from time to time and gives me clues to who he has killed.

sandy betts link
9/16/2017 06:40:17 pm

Rick, I forgot to mention the paper bag was what the man used to put the autographed yellow book in, to leave for Ira. For whatever reason he uses a paper sack to put his objects in. Except when he replaced the clothes line that he took from my home in Napa the summer of 69.He bought me a brand new one still in its package almost 20yrs later! I haven't had the chance to thank him for that.

Sully
9/16/2017 04:53:38 pm

Q: After RN trips with Hunter Sr, does anyone (besides LE) know if RH put Donna in his will as a beneficiary ?

sandy betts link
9/16/2017 06:33:15 pm

I believe that RH had a family , why would he name Donna Lass as a beneficiary? Some wills can be found in the recorders office, I have read a few of them for information. You could always check to see if you feel that is important. She had only $500.00 in her bank account when she disappeared.That should say something?

Sully link
11/22/2017 03:53:27 pm

Thanks Sandy. Finally read ALL of Richard & Alex stuff above. So Old man RH Sr was throwin bags o' $$ for NEW Hospital wings. Made RH Jr real nervous so he kept Larry Kane on a 'whack any golddigger' retainer ???Sounds par for the course here...

sandy betts link
11/22/2017 05:03:30 pm

Sully, We don't have any proof that Hunter Jr or Sr knew Larry Kane.
Sr had a wife and seemed happy. I doubt that the Hunter family had anything at all to do with Donna's disappearance. Kane on the other hand is a pretty good suspect in that case.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Richard please check you email.

Rick A. Roberts
11/24/2017 09:24:26 pm

I watched the new television program where they used their " Super Computer " on Z340. When I decoded it, I came up with " FEIGN EARL VAN BEST ".

sandy betts link
11/25/2017 01:14:55 pm

Rick A Roberts , Earl Van Best was proven not to be Zodiac. The mother said her son made up everything to sell a book. When ever you have the 340 solved, send that to the FBI in Virginia to see what they have to say about it being correct. That is the only true way to know.

Lee
12/10/2017 01:39:17 am

Again so you decide Van Best is not plausible just because the Author's estranged mother said so? I mean come on. Obviously you have a lot of theories and seem to think Z is your suspect AND you 2 have a special sick dance you are doing, So you report all this wealth of knowledge to the LE and.....? Not adding up.

Rick A. Roberts
11/26/2017 05:42:10 pm

Sandy,
When the " Super Computer " on television analyzed the Z340 Cipher, it highlighted two areas on the cipher. One reads, " R, J, I, Square with Left half Diagonally filled in, I, J, R ". This deciphered is, " G, F, I, E, I, F, G ". The second one reads, " Backwards B, Period(.)Backwards C, V, Backwards C, Period(.), Backwards B ".E, N, V, B, V, N, E ". This deciphered reads, " E, N, V, B, V, N, E ". If you look at each half of each one where they repeat, you see : " G F I E, E N V B ". I then came up with, " FEIGN EVB ", or " FEIGN EARL VAN BEST ". This was curious to me as " FEIGN " means to " PRETEND TO BE ". Who was pretending to be Earl Van Best back at that time ? Would he have been trying to make it look like the Zodiac Killer was Earl Van Best ?

sandy betts link
11/26/2017 07:33:08 pm

Rick, I don't think that anyone back then was thinking about some "very young" teenager being Zodiac. They were looking for a much older man at that time. Could also mean feign Bev for Beverly right?
That computer is fed information by "people",junk in -junk out. I will be very surprised if that computer solves anything.I do wish that it could. The most impressive bit of information that I feel has come from the series, is that drop of blood that has been over looked on CJB's pants for all these years. That should be the killers blood!

Rick A. Roberts
11/27/2017 10:20:36 pm

Sandy,
You're right. I was just wondering if someone who knew Earl Van Best could have been masquerading as he.
That drop of blood surely could be the clue that breaks the whole thing wide open. DNA is a great tool that forensic science has came up with and it is always evolving to a higher degree of precision.

sandy betts link
11/27/2017 10:37:38 pm

Rick, DNA is what will solve the Zodiac case. I have what I believe is Cecelia's wrist watch. There has to be some DNA on it. I am willing to pay for it to be tested at the right lab.The blood on the dictionary has to belong to Bryan and Cecelia? But Napa does not want to believe that Zodiac put his costume in my car, because it was not exactly the way the report states. It was in two parts not one! It is a shame and their loss, because the case could be solved if they would test what I have!

Tahoedirt link
11/27/2017 11:15:01 pm

I'm new, but noticing a pattern here, maybe including me ?? There's many people interested, even want to be, by whatever means , to be included in this case.
Many of my movements, include Z,...but, I continue look for relevant evidence, that doesn't include an extremist tilt.
I was in the Navy, lived in SoCal in 66-67, went to Terry's Waffle Shop, Vallejo (that's what it WAS called) in the 60-66. I was interrogated by the FBI for Harveys bombing and worked at Sahara Tahoe the very night Donna Lass disappeared. I lived on 17th Ave (I guess with Ross Sullivan ??) in 76-77 ??- SO WHAT, HUH ??
I promise- There's few people that know the history of Tahoe better than me. I've been n and out of the Lake since 1963.
Question- Is there some method to exclude some if these unrealistic insinuations ??
I'm interested, but not at the expense if real conclusions- Maybe Trump set up Sidney Portier up ??? Come on people.

sandy betts link
12/10/2017 11:35:01 am

Tahoedirt, Are you saying that you lived with Ross Sullivan? I am not one of the people that think that Ross could be Zodiac. There is pretty good chance that I waited on you at one of the clubs where I worked at In Vallejo if you went to any of them? I am very aware of the Lake Tahoe bombing and saw the drawings of the suspects. Were you one of those? Why did they suspect you? You were at the waffle shop before Darlene started working there, but Zodiac could have been there at that time.Thanks for sharing, very interesting!

Tahoedirt link
12/10/2017 12:29:04 pm

Hey Sandy
A few things here-
I was merely pointing out, it's very easy to draw unsubstantiated conclusions.
No, I never lived with Ross Sullivan- I lived down the street on the corner of 17th Ave and East Cliff Dr, kitty corner to "the cove".
I never spent time in Vallejo, other than to stop with my folks at Terry's Waffle Shop Sat mornings on our way water skiing at Berryessa.
The Harveys Bombing story is a long one and no I didn't look like either the composite drawings (mid eastern guys ironically) or Berges, the bomber- I would have to talk with you to tell the whole story.
While I'm here writing this, I want to say- I'm far from an expert in this case, but really disappointed with History Channel series. Reminds me of the DB Cooper thing- Merely an attempt to sell insurance, prescriptions and cars with no end result. I think it's a disgrace to good amateur sleuths such as yourself..
Lastly, my personal opinion of this case, is that Z took credit for others crimes- I don't think one person did all the crimes he claimed to.
Keep up the good work and let me know if you wanna talk, especially about Tahoe, where I'm very knowledgable.
Thx, Dave

Rick A. Roberts
12/10/2017 11:47:17 pm

Tahoedirt,
This is all very interesting. About three years ago, I came across and purchased a Harvey's Casino Five Cent Slot Machine(Mechanical). I was told that it had escaped the bombing at Lake Tahoe. What was the whole reason for the bombing? Thanks.

Tahoedirt link
12/11/2017 01:15:02 am

I'm not good at typing long answers, but I'll try- A guy from Stockton named Berges, was a big player and lost over a million dollars at Harveys. His idea was to blackmail them for a payoff with the bomb. I was considered a suspect and the FBI interegoated me at my home in Aptos- There's a funny story I won't go into.

sandy betts link
12/10/2017 01:06:38 pm

Thank you Dave for your kind words, they are totally unlike the horrible unkind slanderous words on another thread at this site about my suspect. I would like very much to talk with you about Lake Tahoe and what you know about the Case.
I agree with you that there are more than one Zodiac working together and Zodiac did claim victims that were not his.

sandy betts link
12/10/2017 01:06:48 pm

Thank you Dave for your kind words, they are totally unlike the horrible unkind slanderous words on another thread at this site about my suspect. I would like very much to talk with you about Lake Tahoe and what you know about the Case.
I agree with you that there are more than one Zodiac working together and Zodiac did claim victims that were not his.

Tahoedirt link
12/10/2017 01:54:13 pm

Sandy
I was going back thru some of your old posts on ZK Mystery forums. We have much in common- I grew up in Castro Valley, but remember as a boy my mom going on and on re Burton Abbott. Have you read and FO you recommend, Trail of Corn book ??
I'd enjoy talking with you and I was trying to find your email ??
Thx Dave

Tahoedirt link
12/10/2017 05:19:11 pm

Sandy
Been reading n going back over some old stuff on ZK Site, including your 2 notes. The guy offering to do your horiscope- That's not Z and I can explain why when we talk- Too much to type. The other one, I believe I'd Z.
Dave

Tahoedirt link
12/11/2017 01:18:04 am

Just noticed something Sandy- I was looking at that sample of Lawrence Kane 408 McFaul printed card- There can't be many people making a Z that looks like a 3- Isn't that a Zodiac thing ??
Thx Dave

sandy betts link
12/11/2017 08:26:39 pm

Dave, yes that is like Zodiac, but he didn't have enough other letters that matched.One of my RH suspects makes his Z like a 3 as well.

Tahoedirt link
12/11/2017 10:11:57 pm

Some of you might be interested- I was working at the Sahara Tahoe dealing poker, the night Donna Lass dissapeared. It's worth remembering, that was Sunday night ending a 3 day, Labor Day weekend. I didn't know Lass or Kane.
In the old days, it was common for casinos to have a nurses station, especially up there, with the alcohol and altitude mix- People often had problems !! We can all imagine the legal issues that ended that practice. At Sahara, the nurses station was at the other end from the poker room and up near the lobby and other businesses.
Regarding the protocol at the casino- There was a back door with cameras and a time clock and everyone used it. That said, I don't know if Lass was on contract or would have clocked in and out ?? Her new apartment was about 1 mile from the casino (over in Calif) and it was common for people to walk to work. I never heard of Del Webb hanging out, but it was crazy that summer, as Elvis played and the Sahara was kinda the hot new spot.
Hope that helps. D

sandy betts link
12/12/2017 02:38:03 pm

D, I went to that Elvis Show! I passed out waiting in line and was taken to the nurses station, so I remember exactly what it looked like. It was very narrow . When I mentioned that on Zkiller.com, Tahoe27 told me that Elvis came there long after Donna went missing.I didn't think that it was long after?

I received a email for this thread asking me where I get my information? But I don't see that question here. I get my information from good friends who have interviewed people like K Johns, Christina ( Darlene's younger sister), Darlene's father and Zelm's wife.They tell me and I pass it on to people on different Z sites.
There was another question that I don't see here. It was that I had an ex who was a Vallejo Cop? No, I had Vallejo Cop boyfriend for about 5 yrs who also went out with Darlene. I did not know any dirty cops except one who would pull females over in his squad car and make them a offer to get out of a ticket. That was the only one that I knew was dirty. I met one a few yrs ago who was accused of being a bad cop. He was a z suspect at one time, I went to his home and met his family, I liked the whole family, very nice people.

Tahoedirt link
12/12/2017 03:10:54 pm

Hey Sandy
Actually I had my dates confused, but I have a good excuse. I was young, crazy, wore a short haired wig, over my Afro, and it was extremely hot in there. We didn't have enough poker dealers and during one stretch we worked over 30 days in a row, averaging 10-11 hours a day !! Summer was insane up there.
As for Elvis, I checked- He first came July 20, 1971 and came back in 73 and 76 (he looked terrible). My girlfriend was one of a few cocktail waitresses invited to his '71 party upstairs that first year- Described as nondescript, and I trusted her.
BTW, my nickname was Dirt, and that's my name origin, if you care ??
Take care, Dave

Tahoedirt link
12/12/2017 05:32:30 pm

Sandy
I noticed something from one of your previous posts- You went to the Sahara Reunion ?? When and where ?? Who did you know or run into ?? Id enjoy hearing about it.
Thx Dave

Patrick
9/9/2020 12:11:39 pm

Were there many rally car events at the Sahara around that time. Poker Runs?

Richard
12/12/2017 08:51:11 am

Tahoedirt, can you enlighten me about Lake Tahoe in 1970, particularly north of the lake. Was there many pumpkin farms predominantly in this area back then. If so, can you fill in any details or farm, company names. This may sound an odd question, but the answer, if any, could be really useful. Thanks, Richard.

Tahoedirt link
12/12/2017 03:17:23 pm

Richard
It's very diificult to grow most things in Tahoe due to the altitude and weather- Before I stir something up- It's not impossible.
I know little about North Shore at that time, other than the music at Kings Beach and Kings Castle casino.
I can say with confidence, there weren't any pumpkin farms and I hope you're not be messing with me ??? There probably were some down 50 in El Dorado Co near Placerville.
Hope that helps, Dave

Richard
12/12/2017 03:35:28 pm

Thanks Dave, in fact that's even better.

Shawn
3/23/2018 07:02:22 am

Hi Richard,

I think Darlene's Phone book might be worth a study and possibly an article. (If you have not already done so)

I notice in names under Z. The page starts off with "Z Doctor" above everything else. (not listed on the lines)

Further down the page a "John Zeltin" a minister is listed. It appears he would have been about 66 in 1969 but lived to the age of 103. (died in 2005) It appears he had an address in Vallejo.

He seem to be important to Darlene as his name is written three times, twice as Zelton and once as Zilton. There is also the weird name "Zultra" over his name.

Zeltin is listed at 1309 Tuolumne street about a 3/4 mile (13 minute walk) from Springs and Tuolumne where Zodiac made his call after he shot Darlene and Michael.




sandy betts link
12/12/2017 09:51:06 pm

Tahoedirt, Richard has given me permission to give you his email , so that he can give you my email address. grinsnort@googlemail.com
The reunion was a few years ago. I went there with Ricardo and spoke to people who knew both Donna and Larry Kane.The Mayor being one of those people and nurses who knew Donna. My mission was to get as much information as I could.Looking forward to talking with you.

sandy betts link
10/4/2020 12:29:21 pm

Shawn the information is not correct on the dates you have for John Zeltin. That address book belonged to Jim Phillips first, then Darlene had it.
After she was killed, Dean Ferrin used it, that is why you see dates written in that book long after Darlene had been murdered.
I saw a email a minute ago, showing a poster who thinks Darlene knew Donna Lass and others? There is no proof of Darlene knowing any other victims as well as knowing Art Allen!


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    The Zodiac Killer may have given us the answer almost word-for-word when he wrote PS. The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians. The code solution identified was Estimate: Four Radians and Five Inches To read more, click the image.
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    The Zodiac Atlas: The Zodiac Killer Enigma by Randall Scott Clemons. Click image for details.
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    The Zodiac Killer Map: Part of the Zodiac Killer Enigma by Randall Scott Clemons. Click image for color version
    For black and white issue..
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Photos used under Creative Commons from Marcin Wichary, zAppledot, vyusseem, Alex Barth, Alan Cleaver, jocelynsart, Richard Perry, taberandrew, eschipul, MrJamesAckerley