THE RIVERSIDE GROUNDSKEEPER

9/27/2018

On the morning of October 31st 1966 at 6:30 am, Cleophus F. Martin (49), a groundskeeper at the Riverside City College discovered the stricken body of Cheri Jo Bates in an alleyway between two vacant properties. He was also described as a janitor on the website Find A Grave. Cleophus Martin died in 1975. Whether or not he is the same person who discovered the 'Riverside Desktop Poem' is open to speculation. Four years earlier, on February 28th 1962, the San Bernardino County Sun ran an article entitled 'San Bernardino Youth Knifed in Wild Attack on Redlands Road'. Here is the article text.

Click image for link

"Three men were held for questioning in the knifing of a 19-year-old San Bernardino youth Monday after a highway incident that wound up in a wild, four-mile chase with occupants of one vehicle throwing rocks and debris at the other vehicle.
Charles Albert Schuler, 19, of 7695 Merito Avenue, was treated at Community Hospital for cuts on the shoulder, right elbow and left hand that he said was inflicted by a curved flooring knife.
His companions, Perry Lee Thomas and Bill Roan, both of San Bernardino, and Robert Claude Cockrell said they were attacked at Highway 99 and Alabama Street on the outskirts of Redlands about 5 pm Monday.
They said their three assailants, occupants of a pick-up truck, pushed in the windows of the hardtop in which the four were riding, and one of the assailants shoved in a pocket knife and started swinging it.
The four said they then got out of their car, but were chased by the other three, all of whom had knives. Witnesses said that Schuler was chased through heavy traffic. His shirt was cut to ribbons by his knife-swinging assailant.
After dodging knives for a while, the four youths got back in their car and fled. They said the three in the pick-up truck loaded the truck bed with rocks and debris, and chased the car four miles to Tippecanoe and Central.
One of their assailants rode in the truck bed and the other on a running board, hurling rocks and debris at the car, the four said. The truck was identified through a license number and three men were later picked up by Detective Jay D. Hughes.
Booked in the County Jail for questioning were Booker T. Washington (47), his son, John T. Washington (26) and Cleophus Martin (43) of 1577 Vine Street, all of San Bernardino. Detective William Paterson of the homicide division is investigating."

Cleophus Martin was born on 15th October 1917, which would have him 44 years of age on February 28th 1962, not 43, as referenced in the newspaper. Due to the rarity of the name and the location of San Bernardino, it could be argued that this was the groundskeeper/janitor who discovered the body of Cheri Jo Bates. This man likely had nothing to do with the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, and was unfortunate enough to discover the terrible events of the previous night, nevertheless, it begs the question of how familiar the perpetrator was in respect to the Riverside City College campus.

Was the murderer of Cheri Jo Bates familiar enough with the Riverside City College campus to know that the two properties either side of the attack site were empty? Did he have access to the Riverside library storage room to write on the underside of the desktop in relative anonymity? Did he use paper acquired from the Riverside college? "A photocopying machine, where students could secure 8 1/2 X 11 inch black and white copy of printed or typed material, was available at the library for ten cents." The photocopying machine would have been acquired by the college library to accommodate the paper likely used by the college staff and students. The three Bates letters mailed on April 30th 1967 measured 8 1/2 X 11 inches, identical to the size offered by the photocopier in the library.

Credit to ZodiacKillerIdentified on Youtube.

Nobody

9/27/2018 05:28:00 pm

Well after Arlis Perry's killer was discovered to be the very same security guard who "found" her body, such a possibility should definitely not be overlooked.

From Wikipedia: Stephen Blake Crawford, a security guard at Stanford who purportedly discovered the body, was named as the perpetrator following DNA testing. Crawford committed suicide before he could be arrested.

I was amazed when I first heard this on the news. It was like a plot from a dime store novel, or one of those cheap crime stories we see on TV in which the first person shown on camera is always the villain. A "butler-did-it" cliche made real.

No possibility should ever be discounted from any investigation.

Richard

9/28/2018 03:33:14 am

All valid points.

9/27/2018 05:56:39 pm

And, the back to the scene scenario too.

Cleo gets caught slashing with knives in 1962.

"His shirt was cut to ribbons by his knife-swinging assailant"
Charles Albert Schuler, 19, of 7695 Merito Avenue, "was treated at Community Hospital for cuts on the shoulder, right elbow and left hand that he said was inflicted by a curved flooring knife".
Sounds to me like a maintenance man's tool.
Cleo is lucky the cops didn't pin this on him. Charles the 19 year old was too fast for Martin. But, CJB - it does not seem was able to fight him off. They got to get get this guy's DNA - STAT.

Carl Krash link

9/27/2018 06:03:03 pm

Those sound like African-American names...Booker T Wash’n and Cleophus. I wonder if it wasn’t a case where police were simply rounding up ‘the usual suspects’ (anyone handy who was black/male). Were they charged with anything Richard?

Nobody

9/27/2018 09:14:14 pm

I was wondering about the same thing, Carl.

Judith

9/27/2018 06:32:48 pm

I don't believe the hair found in the blood on Cheri Jo's thumb was African-American. Furthermore do you think she would be the kind of girl who would willingly go with a black guy back in 1967? Leave campus, getting in a car with him? I researched this case again today. It is very clear the confession letter was written by the Zodiac Killer as was the Patricia Hautz letter. "To the editor" and then it goes on to talk about the "boy" that did The Killing.
My personal belief is, he was a contemporary of Cheri Jo's, a young man that blended into the campus, looking like any other student. Read these letters again.

Nobody

9/27/2018 09:29:39 pm

Excellent points Judith! I have a hunch her killer would have been someone who worked on campus, or who worked or lived nearby. Somebody who frequented the area, such as a nearby resident or worker. Yes, I keep coming back to the notion that she trusted the person. Does this mean he was in uniform? Was he a security guard, a fellow student, a former friend, a staff member she knew on campus? Perhaps a navy man or police man? Somebody in uniform in who's presence she felt safe and trusting?

One other thing to consider however. If she had seen the janitor or grounds person going about his daily work routines on a regular basis, she may have trusted him too!

Richard

9/28/2018 12:02:57 am

There could have been 2 or more assailants at Riverside. I believe one, but more cannot be ruled out on the evidence.

Nobody

9/28/2018 12:29:24 am

Quite possibly Richard. What I question is this, if there were two or more presumably male assailants, why was she not raped?

Richard

9/28/2018 01:29:43 am

Not all killers are rapists. Some are just sadistic who get their pleasure in inflicting pain, fear and terror. Having no psychopathic tendencies, it is difficult for 'normal' people to rationalize on the mindset of rapists, murders and terrorists, whatever guise they take. Why did Jack the Ripper slice open prostitutes but never raped them. We are led to believe he hated them based on immortality. Some men hate women based on their inability to form a relationship with one - we hear this from some of the mass shooters in America. There are people in the world who don't get what they want and simply lash out in anger. There are a multitude of reasons why somebody becomes a target, many irrational. Let us say CJB saw a college official doing something inappropriate and threatened exposure, then this could make you a target.
I am of the opinion that CJB was not killed by a random stranger, but somebody she trusted or knew to some extent. Could I say 100% - certainly not. To me, this murder has so many possibilities and is one of the most perplexing cases I've encountered. Anybody who tells us they know for certain what happened that night is being disingenuous.

Richard

9/28/2018 01:47:14 am

The number of wounds detailed at autopsy was extensive. This was a prolonged attack with two properties either side and not the ideal location for an attack with a short-bladed weapon. Again, I get into the danger of analyzing this from a sound mind perspective, but I wouldn't attack a women in a location between two occupied residences with a short-bladed knife for a duration of at least one minute, with presumably CJB screaming and fighting for her life. A random killer would surely murder in an area of relative safety.
But then we have Zodiac, who certainly threw this notion aside, when he shot Paul Stine and took the time to tear a shirt piece in a highly populated area of Presidio Heights surrounded by occupied residences. Taking each crime scene in isolation we can create a reasonable argument, but there is always an example that bucks this trend. Could we argue the likelihood of Zodiac being involved in the murder of CJB, because his lack of fear when killing between two properties, as exhibited in Riverside. We could, but it's a weak argument despite being the case. No matter the argument put forward in many unsolved murders, there is usually a credible counter-argument. The same applies to the location of the murder in Riverside.

Nobody

9/28/2018 04:27:10 am

I agree it was probably someone she knew or at least trusted, or someone in a position that made him seem trustworthy.

Also agree on the killers versus rapists angle, however some killers are also rapists who do not for some reason commit rape at some crime scenes. Other times they commit rape but not murder. There never seem to be any absolutes when it comes to serial criminals, as GSK has shown us. It appears from his testimony that BTK found sexual gratification from some killings but not others.

Also it seems unlikely that to or three like-minded killers would operate together as if they were a single unit. They would not all have the same modus operandi. However there have certainly been murders that appeared like the work of one person when actually there have been 2 or more. We also know from the Manson killings that a gang can operate together if they share the same motivation and agenda and have been given instructions, either explicit or implied, by a Third Party who they look up to.

Based on what we know, I think there was only one assailant, but I could of course be mistaken.

9/27/2018 06:48:55 pm

1. Riverside Zodiac was not San Fransisco Zodiac.
2. There was never any eye witnesses to Riverside.
3. RZ then could have been black.
4. Cleophus was a very common boys name in 1920.
5. It is greek for "vision of glory"
6. The ciphers were full of greek letters.

Nobody

9/27/2018 09:18:06 pm

You are correct BB, with every point you make. We cannot presume that Cheri Jo's killer was white, or the same killer, simply because the Zodiac from SF area claimed responsibility for "Riverside activities".

Carl Krash link

9/28/2018 07:40:11 am

Interesting re Cleophus BB. Suspect Xenophon Anthony was likely Greek American. My suspect George Achilles Karadanis was Anatolian Greek. Yes the flooring knife used in the attack described in Richard’s post may indicate a construction angle. Karadanis was a developer and contractor for motels. Doing research right now to find out what he built outside of his Tahoe motels. Kane who worked for him was a siding and roofing sub-contractor. I just assumed Cleophus might have been black because of his association (3 men held) with Booker T Washington, a man named after a black hero. But it may be a false assumption on my part- he may have been Greek American

Sully link

9/27/2018 07:00:02 pm

Mark Hewitt released 3rd Z book today. His 'Zodiac Exposed' is about Ted Kaczinski THE UNIBOMBER as ZODIAC! Dont waste your time or $$$ on this BABAGANOUSH

Nobody

9/28/2018 04:32:37 pm

Sully, I agree with you entirely. In fact I would go further and say there are too many of these wastes of time (i.e. Zodiac books) getting self-published. Authors can become very obstinate about a particular suspect to the point that they are willing to put their life savings and reputations on the line. Obsession and passion tends to interfere with their judgement. They spend so many days and weeks engaged in "tunnel vision" they can no longer see any other possibilities. They do not want to accept any other possibilities and can become very hostile towards anybody who presents an alternative theory. They are forced to sell their theories in order to recoup costs.

Any intelligent person should realize that the Zodiac was so eclectic in what he wrote about and the symbols he used that anybody on earth could be fitted up as a Zodiac suspect with sufficient selective reasoning.

So it should not come as a surprise to us that there are a multitude of crazy theories out there. Single-minded authors on a crusade to tell us Zodiac was BTK, Bernie Sanders, Kjell Qvale, Xenophon Anthony, the list goes on and on.

The number of suspects will only continue to grow in future. All these books will of course be a waste of print and paper, destined for the recycling bins and pulp mills of the future. Time and money that could have been more wisely spent. But what can anybody do about it? Some good words to the wise comes with your own suggestion. People should simply refrain from parting with their hard earned dollars. Generally all anyone has to do is read the outline of the story and flick through the pages to gain a measure of the author's state of mind and the quality of the evidence presented.

How to make babaganoush

9/28/2018 05:32:50 pm

I imagine the process goes something like this:

As a potential author of a Zodiac book, you must find someone who:

1) is famous - this apparently helps your case! (tick)
2) looked like one of the Zodiac sketches (tick),
3) is in prison or dead (tick)
4) who may have otherwise seemed normal (tick)
5) who was athletic or at least physically fit/strong/well built/or a bit fat etc. (tick)
6) generally had short hair, crew cut, widow's peak (tick)
7) wore glasses (tick)
8) was Caucasian or of nearby ethnic origins, an adult male, preferably young or young-looking, between a certain poorly specified age,
9) lived in the general Bay area, or at least in California for at least part of the Zodiac era (or a means to travel there regularly),
10) was at least of average intelligence or higher.

Then you look for circumstantial evidence by:
1) matching examples of handwriting styles
2) finding photos that capture your suspect in ways that best resemble the sketches (note: you may have to "re-draw" some of the sketches!),
3) matching symbols from the ciphers with his ethnic or cultural background,
4) making comparisons between the things the Zodiac wrote about and all manner of things from your suspect's life.

And there you have it. You will have your own neatly packaged theory relating to a potential new suspect in no time. Now all you have to do is write a book in a way that seems convincing and then try to sell it. Good luck!

9/28/2018 06:58:00 pm

Cleophus F Martin is just the soup du jour - Ray - I enjoy reading about murder mystery, and religion, and politics, and science, history etc.

And, like Richard points out often - we are pattern seeking animals.

It is our natural strengths that will lead us rightly. It is also my wish that you would join us in laying down arms. It is a good point you made about all the book deals. They are mostly just people cashing-in on the craze. But, the matching symbols dig aimed at my janitor poem comment why? It does not teach anybody anything positive to throw things their face. Civilization began with a polite word. Some five millennia ago. And, therefore to be civil is to be polite. I have behaved uncivil at times. But, I am hoping to get beyond that. Wars have started over insults. Peace is not a weakness - it is intelligent. Fighting is barbaric, and benefits no-one. I vow to lay down my arms. Peace. The true fight is with-in one's self. Regardless, I do promise no more jabs - Peace.

Just Joe

9/28/2018 08:53:22 pm

BB, dunno what your talkin bout. Soup? Ray? Dig? Jabs? Not following, sorry.

If you wan ta know, my real name is Joe. My post was supporting of Sully's post, thats all. Apologies if you think a point I made was aimed at you. Not intentional. Just ttrying to keep things real. I copied most of the points from another forum. Not me who wrote them.

Peace to the world and all that. Will the outraged authors be peaceful in return? There is the question. Doesn't take much to upset some. Can tell you, been ththere before. Prickly people who don like hedghogs. Well not my fault some folks prickle easy.

9/27/2018 07:07:06 pm

Judith
The killer could have been a different person than the letters - we have to entertain all the possibilities. We are not saying - that - any of this is set in stone. Nor am I saying she had to have gone with Zodiac in a vehicle. He could have taken her into one of the empty houses - held her in there the entire 4hr period. The maybe she was beaten - possibly raped - then she escapes to the alley to be caught by Cleo. Where he slashed like the madness of the Charles Albert Schuler incident that we know he was capable of.

Clive Mandrake

9/27/2018 08:11:47 pm

no special significance of 8.5x11 paper - std letter size, available everywhere

Judith

9/27/2018 08:48:05 pm

The confession letter had been torn off at the top and torn off at the bottom so I'm not sure where you get the 11 inches from. Cheri Jo was not raped. I would think they would check the houses for evidence of a crime scene. Vallejo PD recently said they would be checking any DNA retrieved from the Zodiac letters against the Riverside evidence FYI.

Richard

9/28/2018 12:09:15 am

I never said the Confession letter was 11 inches, I said the Bates letters, detailed as 8 1/2 X 11 inches in the FBI files.

bluebelly

9/28/2018 12:52:39 pm

The janitor at RCC mistakenly left some thing in the desk top poem.

he wrote "cut, clean, if red i clean"
"cut - clean - if red(from blood) - i clean(a janitor's job)."
ZodiacKillerIdentified

Nobody

9/28/2018 04:39:02 pm

Yes, well spotted and so uncanny, isn't it?

Nobody

9/28/2018 09:21:38 pm

Just got a msg in my In box that has me confused. BB thinks another poster made a dig at her desk top poem idea? Not me BB. I was agreeing with you in my reply. My comment further up the page was about Sully's comment and nothing else. I have re-read my posts and can't see anything diggy or offensive in them. I found the lines you pointed out very "uncanny" simply because cleaning and janitor work go together.

I had a read of the other comments. The way I interpret it, the poster was just making a general observation about these books. The comments only relate to them, as far as I can tell. I am not much good at hidden meanings I admit, but can't see a dig aspect to any of it. All seems innocent enough to me. Peace.

Judith

9/28/2018 09:02:11 pm

So pretty sure this is an either-or. In as much as the Zodiac Killer wasn't black. We have law enforcement stating that the writer of the desktop poem and the Bates Letters are the Zodiac. The confession letter is the Voice of the Zodiac. Zodiac takes credit for the murder of Cheri Jo.

There are handwriting similarities such as the letter O with the dots in the center.
Could have Zodiac simply written the letters? Law enforcement thinks that the guy who wrote the confession letter was the actual killer of Cheri Jo Bates. Her killer's hair was recovered from her dead body. New technology can yield DNA from hair now. Last chance to solve this singular crime. Let me point you in the right direction. It wasn't a black man.

Nobody

9/28/2018 09:55:36 pm

Many people Judith including yours truly thinks the killer's identity is most likely to be found through investigation of the Bates case. Why? Because of the location and circumstances, and the possibility that this was the killer's first victim. Out of all the cases, this one seems more likely to have involved a killer who was rushed, who made mistakes, and therefore left behind more evidence.

On the other hand the case is now very old, and we have detectives in Riverside PD both past and present who remain convinced that the killer of Cheri Jo was not the Zodiac. Some of their reasons for this are valid, and I am sure they have other reasons that they are keeping to themselves.

Still... I am sure even they are not entirely convinced and are open to the possibilities?

The sad thing about this case is that Cheri Jo potentially had the killer's DNA under her fingernails. If the crime had happened at a later time when the value of DNA was known, perhaps it could have aided greatly in the capture of her killer. Does LE still have this valuable DNA sample today, or is it like all of the other evidence from the Zodiac case? Poorly stored? Now useless due to decomposition and excessive contamination?

Bird Lover

9/29/2018 05:16:11 am

A crazy clew from out of left field (?)

Tits, martins, swallows, and swifts can look very similar to an untrained eye. They are among the most difficult birds for aspiring bird watchers to differentiate. Guide books have been written on the subject to help people pick the differences. So a Willow-tit could be mistaken for a common house Martin if somebody did not look close at the details.

If we consider the Zodiac's outdoors themes and interest in wild game in the woods, could a tit-willow be Z's cryptologist manner of indicating a martin?

Mt Diablo has tit mice, a bushtit, a wren tit, swifts, and swallows. One of the swallows is the Purple Martin.

Tit willow, tit willow, tit willow!

9/29/2018 01:30:38 pm

Good Point - Bird Lover
A bird - in British slang is a girl.
And, therefor a bird watcher could be along those lines - spying on girls - nowadays we would call him a stalker.

N/A

9/29/2018 05:50:16 am

The Cleophus Martin in the article was black and was the janitor for RCC. He was the same guy involved in the knife attack.

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19620715.1.40&srpos=2&e=------196-en--20-SBS-1--txt-txIN-france+vine+st----1962---1

Judith

9/29/2018 11:48:56 am

Trying to figure out how some guy involved in a knife fight could be working as a janitor at a public school. Having said that, that is exactly what Peter was doing for his job from 1969 to 1973. At an elementary school, in fact the same elementary school he attended as a child.
Anyway, what do you suppose Cleophus' hair looked like?

9/29/2018 01:03:36 pm

Judith
Did CFM(Cleophus F Martin) discover CJB?
Or was he the janitor to find the desk?
Could he be the same guy, maybe not.
We all want the same thing.
To know who killed CJB.
Did Peter live near RCC in 1966?
If so, we got to put him at the top of the list.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2018 02:16:18 pm

You know BB,as I have pointed out to Judith,you would make a very valuable addition to zodiackillermystery.freeforums.net ,as a member.

Though it might seem that I am on a recruitment drive,you would be free to continue to contribute to Richard's ''peerless'' and excellent site.

All that is required of you is,that you stick to your chosen name,and acknowledge codes of behaviour.

I think,like Judith,you would be a great addition.

''Extra'' information on offer,a distinct possibility,also.

Think it over [?].

[.....Thanks,Richard....]

Judith

9/29/2018 12:36:36 pm

I have successfully entered our youngest son's raw DNA into
GEDmatch. It has come up with 2,000 matches, excluding 265 matches that are not made public. It is an extremely complex website and it will take me some time to learn how to use the information that is provided. There is an initial disclaimer warning folks that this information may be used by law enforcement.

DNA Proponent

9/29/2018 02:52:08 pm

Well done Judith!

For many years I have been promoting the idea that every single baby born into the world should be DNA tested as a tool against fighting the world's ever soaring crime rates. Perhaps I am being naive because crazy people will still want to kill other people, but at least the detection rates might be greatly improved and lead to prompt arrests of the guilty persons.

I do realize the inherent risks involved in police "getting it wrong" or the potential for criminals to leave another's DNA at crime scenes. My crime-free Utopia may not be so perfect, but nothing in the world is ever perfect, is it?

I have consistently been howled down as a Fascist or Communist whenever I have promoted my radical idea. The irony is that many people today are already testing their children's DNA to look for markers pertaining to risks associated with cancer, MS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, autism etc. in the future.

So I must ask, who is the true Fascist and Communist if some doctors and everyday people in our modern society seem hell bent on creating a future Master Race by eliminating the future weak and sickly? I am reminded of some internet forums that like to get rid of anybody who disagrees. Some will go to the extreme of constantly having a dig at old wounds, as just noted. So yes indeed, Fascists and dictators are already plentiful in our society, or so it would seem.

Governments also relish the notion of a society free from diseases because this creates a healthier work force and reduces the financial burden on the Government's purse strings. I daresay a reduction in crime would also mean less money spent on legal processes and the prison system. Criminals may be less prone to offend if they know they can be caught simply be leaving a bit of skin or hair at a crime scene.

I am also certain that the science of DNA testing will be improved and the process will be carried out in a more timely manner in future.

But I digress. The real reason why I like the idea of a population-wide DNA bank is that it would create an immensely valuable tool in the detection and eradication of crime.

Of course all of this depends on how good the sample is of the offender's DNA, in this case the Zodiac's.

Nobody

9/29/2018 02:25:27 pm

I notice that no-one has asked the seemingly obvious question.

What was Cleophus F Martin's second name? I mean what does the F initial stand for?

Richard

9/29/2018 03:22:40 pm

Tried searching but cannot find out. I wonder if any of these undesirable friends were attracted to the college by association.

Nobody

9/29/2018 03:38:17 pm

Hi Richard, The news article says they were taken to the station and booked. This suggests they were charged, or was the reporter being lazy and this actually meant they were only questioned? Did the case ever proceed to court? Were they found guilty?

Although it does seem like the same Cleophus Martin, newspapers do sometimes get things wrong. If the name spelling was actually Cleophas, for example, this could represent an entirely different individual. I guess for me I am not entirely convinced that the two Cleophus are one and the same person. The evidence is not really strong enough for me to be certain and so I have doubts.

I had a look through some old phone directories and do note a few entries for C. Martin at different addresses. I could not find any phone listing for 1577 Vine Street, SB, however the search engine kept sending me to Vine Street in Hollywood. I only found a couple of entries for a C F Martin, but these were not at Vine Street, SB, and only appeared on two consecutive years in the late 60s.

9/29/2018 05:10:17 pm

Richard
Can the DNA under CJB's fingernails tell if the assailant was black?

Richard

9/30/2018 01:08:46 am

The melanin in the skin is produced by melanocytes, which are found in the basal layer of the epidermis. Although, in general, human beings possess a similar concentration of melanocytes in their skin, the melanocytes in some individuals and ethnic groups produce variable amounts of melanin. Some humans have very little or no melanin synthesis in their bodies, a condition known as albinism.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/science/gene-that-determines-skin-color-is-discovered-scientists-report.html

N/A

9/29/2018 08:53:03 pm

Couldn't reply to your other message. The Cleophus Martin in the news article is positively the janitor from RCC. Copy and paste link, it's the same address.

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SBS19620715.1.40&srpos=2&e=------196-en--20-SBS-1--txt-txIN-france+vine+st----1962---1

Nobody

9/30/2018 12:12:57 am

Thanks N/A. Sorry for being a stickler. I like to get to the bottom of these kinds of things. The news article really only tells us there was a Cleophus Martin living at the same address. It would be good to find some more conclusive evidence. Could there have been another Cleophus Martin, for instance?

Nobody

9/30/2018 12:25:29 am

Great question BB! I hope Richard can answer this. I had a look at some online sites. Best I can come up with is that gene expression can be found in DNA as "on/off" markers for alleles. So you can only come up with a certain "range" of markers which will suggest the likelihood of a person having a certain skin color. However you could potentially find markers for dark pigment alleles in a fair-skinned person, if one of their parents was of Latin or African-American ancestry. But I may just be telling lies. I wish I knew more about this.

I tried wrapping my head around this article!

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2006/09/can-you-tell-if-youre-black-or-white/#.W7B30vYRWUk

Nobody

9/30/2018 12:31:57 am

BB, hello again! It just dawned on me that if fragments of the assailant's skin were lodged under Cheri Jo's fingernails, the easiest way for forensics to know if he was black or white would be to look at the material under a high powered microscope. I am sure this would have been the likely method, back in those days.

N/A

9/30/2018 09:47:38 am

The evidence that it is the same Cleophus Martin is the relatives listed in the articles. The obituary for the janitor who worked at RCC states that he is survived by his daughter Joyce A McIver. The wedding article says Joyce A. France was marrying Floyd McIver and that she lived at 1577 Vine St., home of Mr, and Mrs. Cleophus Martin. Trust me, it's the same guy.

Nobody

9/30/2018 04:12:55 pm

Thanks N/A. Must be the same guy then.

BlueBelly

9/29/2018 05:42:13 pm

The four dots - connect them starting from top right to make the letter

"C"

The F is obvious "F"

The last letter is "M"
and is sort of
disguised like
I thought was a VF
for Voice Frequency used by Ham radio operators.
But now I wonder if it is
CFM for Cleophus F Martin

9/30/2018 12:11:17 pm

If the gene for skin color is determined not to be black we could call off this line of inquiry. But, if this is a black gene then they need to order Cleophus to be exumed first and foremost - to keep anyone from putting up more red tape. They then can notify the family and ask if anyone would be willing to give a sample of their DNA to prevent the need to exume. Otherwise, they could legally prevent us from getting a sample for many many years.

Richard

9/30/2018 12:44:26 pm

If Cleophus Martin hung around with undesirables such as the ones described in the newspaper, who were white, then it is not beyond reason that they could have visited him at the Riverside college while he was working or on lunch break. By association, these undesirables may have crossed paths with students. I don't believe Cleophus Martin had anything to do with the murder, but with the newspaper connection and willingness to carry a knife, it was certainly worth presenting, if not just for background information,

Richard

9/30/2018 12:48:21 pm

There could also be more than one participant in the murder. Just because the hair or DNA might suggest a Caucasian, doesn't mean somebody else wasn't involved, whether white or black.

Nobody

9/30/2018 04:26:33 pm

Uh, The other undesirables could have been white? :-O

I am sure there are lots of white people named John T. Washington in existence. But chances of a white Booker T. Washington seem remote, unless he was the result of a mixed race marriage, but even then... And considering John T. was Booker T.'s son, that suggests he was probably not white either.

My guess is Booker T's parents named him in honor of the famous Booker Taliaferro Washington. It was very fashionable for African Americans to namesake their children to famous identities in this way, as an indication of respect, cultural and racial identity, pride, and homage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington

Who knows, they may have even been related!

I still wonder if any of the three were actually charged with the assault or merely questioned. Were they ever charged and how long were they in custody, if at all? It is of course plausible that Cleophus had served a short term in prison and was out on parole and got a job as a groundskeeper/janitor prior to 1966.

Nobody

9/30/2018 05:28:10 pm

I do agree that he was probably ruled out early on by the police while still remaining on their files as a person of interest.

My guess is he was ruled out because he had no fingernail scratches on his person and he was dark skinned, but we can only guess.

It is odd that out of all the potential Zodiac cases, we know so very little about the Bate's case. Once again I am reminded of the Arlis Perry case. The police appear to have long had a suspect in mind for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, but that single piece of evidence must still be eluding them.

I am quite sure the police back then knew all about Cleophus Martin's past and his two friends.

Presuming these three individuals remained friends, it is certainly plausible to suggest this trio and their kids and perhaps other friends, may have visited and hung around the area where Cleophus Martin worked. Some of these individuals may have been white.

In any case, I am sure they were not the only undesirables hanging about that area at the time!

blue

10/1/2018 08:56:58 am

If a guy is busted slashing at people - then is working three and a half years later as a janitor finds the body of CJB - then may have found the desk, that he may have wrote the poem - and if they determine the evidence under her nails was from a black guy - then you got to put Cleophus F Martin as suspect #1. Too many leaps to not suspect him.

It comes down to those in charge in the city of Riverside - DA - Mayor - some banker guy, and maybe the sheriff. They decide if they want the world to know that such a pretty girl as CJB can be cut down by some crazed slob in the heart of their beautiful city. Do they sweep it under the rug? Or, do they destroy the image of RCC. And, reveal the puss for all to see. That they hired a murderer to work in the midst of their kids.

DNA facts

10/1/2018 09:24:38 pm

Your budding mystery novelists should perhaps check out the documented evidence obtained from the earlier DNA study conducted on the material evidence from the Cheri Jo Bate's case.

Please take close note of the information contained in the THIRD document on this page.

http://zodiacrevisited.com/cheri-jo-bates-evidence-analysis/

Thank you.

BB aka blue belly

10/21/2018 02:13:34 pm

A hair that could have blown in on the wind?
A hair with no root structure?
A hair that could be anybody's?
A hair they will not ID?
A hair that could be a friend's?
A hair that could be a family member's?
A hair that could mean nothing?
A hair that could come from a janitor's dirty uniform after a long day at work - cleaning - and coveting what he saw everyday?

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