THE REET JURVETSON MURDER

5/30/2020

Inspired by the savage knife murders of Kathy Snoozy (15) and Deborah Furlong (14) on August 3rd 1969, the Zodiac Killer drove away from the shores of Lake Berryessa to the corner of Clinton and Main Streets in Napa. By November 9th 1969, the Zodiac Killer had retrospectively added the San Jose murders of the two teenagers into his running victim count. Just twelve days later he was claiming an eighth victim, when a letter arrived at the San Jose Police Department on November 21st 1969 with the insertion of November = 8. Bearing in mind the Zodiac Killer had now switched to brutal knife attacks, whether he was claiming them or participating in them, there is a distinct possibility that victim number eight was along these lines. He had no involvement in the Snoozy and Furlong murders, but the ferocity of the attack which left both victims absolutely brutalized, was ideal for a killer intent on stoking fear in the psyche of the American people. The San Francisco Chronicle reported that "the Snoozy youngster had 150 wounds on her back, 50 on the front and a "storm" of punctures on her neck. Deborah's body had about 100 wounds on her back and upper front and a dozen on her neck". The location of the attack was another advantageous feature for the Zodiac Killer, keen to bolster his burgeoning reputation as the most feared sociopath in the Bay Area. It was imperative that the Zodiac Killer chose his next victim wisely.

Reet Jurvetson

It is extremely unlikely that the Zodiac Killer was responsible for the murder of Reet Jurvetson (19) on November 14th 1969, found in dense undergrowth alongside Mulholland Drive two days later, but he was claiming victim number eight by November 21st 1969. Like the Snoozy and Furlong murders, Reet Jurvetson had been viciously stabbed 157 times in the neck, chest and torso, yet apparently transported to this location and thrown down the canyon from the roadside edge. Her body was discovered just north of Kimridge Avenue, only eight miles west of her last known address, at 5311 Melrose Avenue in Hollywood. The journey would have been west on Melrose Avenue, before heading north on Loma Vista Drive to Mulholland Canyon.

This, coupled with the fact she had consumed a meal just two hours prior to her death, could have given police an indication of where that meal had been eaten, bearing in mind the journey time from 5311 Melrose Avenue to the location of her body is about 25 minutes, and her apartment (by all indications) wasn't the site of her murder. That leaves approximately 90 minutes for events to unfold. Accounting for the fact that somebody had to murder the young woman by way of 157 stab wounds, carry or drag her body to a waiting vehicle and drive to Mulholland Drive, it is very likely she was murdered not long after seemingly being at ease in taking a meal. The victim's body showed no evidence that this crime was the result of robbery, or driven by a sexual motive. Drag marks at the crime scene indicated Reet Jurvetson had been transported to the crime scene in an upright position within a car and rolled down the ravine where she snagged in the brush just a short distance down, resulting in her being discovered by a 15-year-old birdwatcher. Her identity remained unknown until 2016.

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Had the Zodiac Killer read about the case of the woman alongside Mulholland Drive, noted the similarity in the ferocity of the attack to murders he had already claimed - and so insinuated his involvement by adding November = 8 in his November 21st 1969 communication? The last time he had written the months of his murders, he was also attempting to deceive.

The November 21st 1969 communication was postmarked five days after Reet Jurvetson's body was discovered, claiming an eighth victim, but was postmarked the exact day that Doreen Gaul and James Sharp's bodies were found on November 21st 1969 at around 11:00 PM in an alley behind the residence at 1138 South Magnolia, Los Angeles. They were murdered elsewhere and stabbed in excess of 50 times. This may not seem that unusual, until we consider that Doreen Gaul and James Sharp's bodies were found less than 3 miles (by crow) from the residence of Reet Jurvetson at 5311 Melrose Avenue. Even more curious that a typewritten letter from the supposed Zodiac Killer was discovered in the room of Doreen Gaul stating "You are too beautiful to live and I must kill you". And even more unusual that the Zodiac Killer purportedly mailed a threatening letter to the Albany Times Union newspaper on August 1st 1973 claiming his next victim would be from the Albany Medical Center, only 350 feet from 570 Myrtle Avenue, the street on which Doreen Gaul had previously lived. Then we have the May 2nd 1978 Channel 9 letter mailed to KHJ-TV Studios at 5515 Melrose Avenue - also purported to be from the Zodiac Killer - and located just 437 meters from the once residence of Reet Jurvetson (pointed out to me by Toots). The murders of Kathy Snoozy, Deborah Furlong, Reet Jurvetson, James Sharp and Doreen Gaul bound by the savagery of excessive knife wounds, with the Zodiac Killer never seemingly far away. Certainly not responsible for the murders of Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong - and unlikely the murderer of Reet Jurvetson, James Sharp and Doreen Gaul - but the Bay Area murderer appears to have an uncanny sense of timing and location.

56 Comments

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 03:47:28 pm

Fascinating and naturally tragic tale . And on estimated date of death , becomes a candidate , as such , to solve the mystery of the Zodiac's 8th victim (...that may have been his 6th , in relation to Bay area activities ) .

Ms.Jurvetson's identity only confirmed four years ago . 150 stab wounds is extraordinarily excessive , and may even have been deliberate ( ? ) , to make it look as if she was the victim of a frenzied attack . Perhaps the pathologists know more .

As time goes by , it seems to become more persuasive that the Zodiac had long-term links with Greater Los Angeles .And , in Ms.Jurvetson's murder case , it seems that only the exposure of a serial killer , might find a solution , and justice for her sister .

Richard

5/30/2020 04:00:01 pm

And seems a stroke of luck Zodiac should mail the November 21st 1969 letter the exact day Gaul & Sharp were found, to which one of them was a recipient of another Zodiac letter. Another coincidence?

Richard

5/30/2020 04:24:01 pm

There is also the murder of Marina Habe was found stabbed to death on Jan. 1, 1969.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/reet-jurvetson-other-cases-1.3857691

Richard

5/30/2020 04:26:20 pm

However, it seems these canyons and ravines were popular dumping sites for criminals.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 05:51:04 pm

Thanks Richard , I'm about to look at Gaul and Sharp in more detail .

Indeed , regarding canyons and ravines . One has to wonder if the Zodiac was ever inclined to transport bodies , let alone make any particular effort to conceal them ( ? ) .Though I do believe that , like most serial killers , he was '' above average '' in physical strength , though not a '' Jock '' ,as such .

If the mysterious '' 8th victim '' was not phantom then , hold on to the belief that the Zodiac had run out of guns , following Paul Stine's murder and , that a further victim at that time would not involve a firearm .

It is certainly conceivable , for instance , that Reet Jurvetson was strangled , then desecrated in a fashion for '' frenzied attack '' purposes .

All we know ( ? ) - is that her perpetrator had used a pen-knife , and that he was right-handed .

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 06:33:52 pm

I see now '' multiple stab wounds to the neck '' and '' defensive wounds to her hands '' , for Reet Jurvetson .

Overkill is in the hands of pathologists ( ? ) .

The Zodiac claimed for Snoozy and Furlong , before Lake Berryessa .At that juncture , one assumes that he was '' contracting himself '' to the lie of being a '' knife man '' , before actually becoming one .

So, at Lake Berryessa , the Zodiac became a '' knife man '' - proof positive , QED . But , there must have been suspicions by investigating police and criminologists that the Zodiac was probably a novice '' knife man '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 09:29:02 pm

If the Zodiac was that much of a '' knife man '' , at Lake Berryessa , why didn't he s**t their th***ts ,to be sure that the job was done ?

~Bill

5/31/2020 05:59:21 am

Maybe for the same reason he wore a costume? Maybe he didn't really care if they lived or not. If they live, they spread the story and the terror through the population on another level. If they die, they just get a police report and a few news reports. I don't think he minded if they died, especially Shepard, but I think he was perfectly "okay" if Hartnell either lived or died that day.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 06:35:28 am

Although it will always be difficult to read the Zodiac'd mind , at a given time , the inference made by you , Bill , is very pertinent .

For , on a retrospective level , we know that the pathologists's report , that came back . on Cecelia , indicated that the weapon used , had had a double-edged blade . And , coupled with an interview with Bryan , we can conclude that the Zodiac had used a sword bayonet .

Further to this , we know that many police officers in the Bay area , had been sent out to check on every hardware store , for recent sales of a '' kitchen knife '' .

A '' kitchen knife '' is not a '' sword bayonet '' - naturally .So,the implications are that criminologists had deliberately wasted the time of police , in order to conceal , initially at least , that the Zodiac had employed a sword bayonet at Lake Berryessa .

Why ? Because a sword bayonet has far more sensationalist and fear-provoking newspaper mileage than a '' simple gun ''.And , I do believe that the Zodiac understood this , and scoffed at what the criminologist's initial reaction had been .

As you have pointed out Bill , for some reason the Zodiac had seen the '' theatrical content '' of his planning , at Lake Berryessa , as a high priority .

BB By Bayonet

5/31/2020 04:36:18 pm

The killer had several reasons for The Lake Berryessa attack. Mainly it was because the mistakes of the Riverside attack on Cheri Jo Bates ate at him. Why was it so different from the other Zodiac attacks?
1- He had very little experience.
After the Riverside attack he learned from the experience.
1a. He realized after Riverside that the partial-tang-knife (folding knife) was a big mistake.
1b. Determined to get it right this time. He brought along a sturdy full-tang 12" long knife.
2- The killer donned a hood to prevent scratches, and to keep from getting blood on his face. As well as from being seen. But, most importantly he wore the hood so he could complete the transformation into the world of comic books by literally and metaphorically becoming a super-villain.
2a. He burned-up the evidence - completing the comic book directions - First by gun, which he used to get the victims to do what he wanted. Second by rope, getting them tied up to prevent the horrible fight. Third by knife, stabbing them. Fourth by fire, which he used to destroy the bloody evidence afterwards. As he tried to do at Gaviota Beach.
3- The killer let Bryan live - to be witness to his super-villain costume. How do we know he let Bryan live? The length of the knife is not conducive to the survival of a victim. Only if someone is selected for survival could he live through a 12 inch knife attack. Just take an 18" ruler and grab the top 6 inches like a handle. The blade of the knife was said to be 12 inches in length. The damage by a knife that size is too great to survive. One stab to the hilt, as Bryan said, and the victim would bleed-out in a few short hours. Shepard lived for a while only because of getting medical attention soon after the attack. Bryan only lived because the killer's choice of where he struck him was not in vital areas. Where that is I have no idea. So the knife size is a gross exaggeration by the media.
4- He laughed while stabbing Shepard to link to the Red Hood (If the hood was made of leather though it most likely would have been of a dark reddish brown color) as a moniker.
The killer was said to have a leather scabbard, holster, and belt.
5- He kept trying to link to the Red Hood notion by writing of laughter and joking around.
The Red Hood idea was originally put out by Howard Davis in 2003.
6- He in 1963 was about age 18 years old, stabbing Vern Smith he was heard laughing.
7- The killer in 1966 left the ' r h' signature on the desk and in the confession letter I PLUNGED THE KNIFE INTO HER AND IT BROKE. I THEN FINISHED THE JOB BY CUTTING HER THROAT. I AM NOT SICK. I AM INSANE. BUT THAT WILL NOT STOP THE GAME. This is where the pre-Zodiac creeper AKA the laughing boy AKA the laughing killer cut himself as the knife blade broke free of its handle. Combat knives have a full tang extending all the way into the handle. The - r h - killer made the mistake of bringing a folding knife to kill Cheri who became combative. He was scratched on the face near his eyes. Thus at Lake Berryessa he wares welders glasses. Bryan states that the glasses were connected to something under the dark (possibly reddish brown leather) Hood. He is describing welders glasses. The hood probably was made of something thick like leather as textiles would tend to sag. The hood stood up and did not droop like it would have if made of canvas,burlap,cotton, nylon or polyester.
8- The contention is that there are two monikers one "The Zodiac" - which he uses for his patsy's name. And, the other for his comic book super-villain name. Although still other names were given to him as trial balloons by members in the media. Laughing this - and - laughing that. Was Randy Hearst dropping hints at morning meetings that the killer was a hysterically laughing maniac? To fit with a character they were building a la The Joker.
The relationship between cops and newspaper reporters before the 1970's was cozy.
The photographers at a homicide would manipulate the crime scenes for shock value.
The private detectives would arrive on scene to make payoffs so cops would let them in.
The homicides for hire were dead ends for cops. But, they were big sellers of newspapers.

San Francisco District Attorney's Office

Thomas C. Lynch 1951–1964 he became California state AG
( Sargent John Lynch - Was a leading Zodiac Investigator )
John J. Ferdon 1964–1975 was DA during the Time in Question

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 09:22:55 pm

In bare basics :

Dripping Pen Card ,November 8th 1969 :

Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7

San Jose Letter , November 21st 1969 :

November = 8

Implies , one extra victim claimed by the Zodiac , between the 8th and 21st November 1969 .After all , the San Jose P.D. took the claimed Zodiac , seriously .

One extra victim , in 13 days , as claimed by the Zodiac .

Richard

5/31/2020 12:10:59 am

The Zodiac stated on November 9th 1969 "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people". So, I suppose in theory, he could have murdered anytime from November 1st to 21st. But had he murdered between the 1st and 8th, he surely would have added November to the Dripping Pen card which he didn't. The Bus Bomb letter on the 9th didn't add any extra victims, so essentially we are looking for a claimed victim between November 10th and November 20th in all likelihood. The Reet Jurvetson murder fitted with his current fascination of close quarter attacks. I am not claiming his involvement in her murder, moreover, a possibility he was insinuating an involvement it because of "Aug" and "Sept". I would like to see the entirety of this communication so we can have a better understanding of its content, but its continued use of language in "There's no doubt I will do my Thing!", indicates it is an extension of the Dripping Pen card and hence the addition of November = 8.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 06:49:21 am

You have put the gist of the time-span for a possible '' 8th victim '' far more accurately than me , Richard .

What is it that you precisely mean by '' entirety of this communication '' ?

Richard

5/31/2020 07:14:24 am

I meant the entirety (or any) for that matter, of the November 21st letter to SJPD. I would like it released to view.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 07:35:22 am

Yes indeed - of course , we don't know the entirety of the 21st November letter . And some , are even in denial of its authenticity ( ! ).

'' They '' miss so much , of piecing parts together ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 10:16:09 pm

Anyone that takes an interest , will have their own opinion , Richard , and mine is that the cops forged the '' Zodiac Killer '' note , that went with the Gaul & Sharp murders . In addition , suppressed the contact that the Zodiac made with the San Jose P.D. , on November 21st .

In effect , snuffed the Zodiac out of making any mileage on actually answering Dr.Marsh's challenge ( The Walrus )....and , at least holding the possibility of accusing the Zodiac of further murders , up their sleeve .

As sure as '' eggs is eggs '', the cops added extra messaging on Robert Salem's walls , to prise the Zodiac out of his shell , in April 1970 - and it worked .

Why should the forging of a Zodiac note , related to the murders of Gaul & Sharp be any different , in counter-intelligence behaviour ?

Rubislaw 32 link

5/30/2020 10:28:27 pm

The strange looking doodles , at the bottom of the note found in Doreen Gaul's bedroom ?

Doreen Gaul was found naked , apart from a beaded necklace around her neck . In addition , among the injuries inflicted on both victims , was a flogging from a metal chain of some description .

Richard

5/31/2020 12:20:27 am

Those doodles remind me of the Bleeding Knife of Zodiac. The Gaul note has 10 dripping "blotches" which could fit with 7 victims plus Jurvetson (and the eventual Gaul/Sharp murders). The problem is that the Bleeding Knife of Zodiac still had 7 dripping "blotches", thereby negating any prior murders and the November = 8 addition. So, it's likely these "drops of blood" on the Fairfield letter (and possibly the Gaul letter) were not meant to add up to a specific total and my over-reading of their significance.

Richard

5/31/2020 12:24:40 am

The Gaul note said "I know all your movements", which is rather ironic considering the timing of the above mentioned events described in the article.

Richard

5/31/2020 12:34:02 am

The Zodiac was still looking for victim 9 and 10 by the confirmed Belli letter on December 20th 1969, so the 7 drops of blood in the December 16th 1969 Bleeding Knife drawing coming after the November = 8 claim on November 21st 1969, likely discredits the idea that the drops of blood on the drawing had any significance whatsoever with regards to the victim count.

Richard

5/31/2020 02:17:23 am

We know Rubislaw these victim total claims are fantasy (colloqually described as bullshit). To believe Zodiac actually murdered 7, 10, 12, 13, 14. 17 etc, is delusional by any reasonable standards. The things we can glean from these false claims is possibly where Zodiac visited or where his train of thought was. Is Zodiac likely to claim victims from locations he was familiar with and had likely frequented or intended to visit. Therefore, by claiming or insinuating victims in Los Angeles, may suggest a familiarity with this region. A mental map of the killer if you like. These may be areas he had visited or would be prepared to visit. What this can achieve is give you a virtual geographic profile of the killer, much like the 38 potential cop victims he was suggesting he may kill in the December 16th Fairfield letter. Although he likely didn't kill anybody, he was effectively telling us where he was prepared to kill, and so give us a mental map of his thinking process and the mileage he was prepared to travel from his home location. He concentrated on Vallejo, Sacramento, Napa, Fairfield, San Jose, San Francisco and Oakland - all the places we have communications mailed from or mailed to. In essence, he was constraining himself to locations accessible to him. Los Angeles and New York were fringe targets, which could indicate vacation areas, work locations or family ties, and hence why the focus was squarely around the Bay Area. With only four canonical crimes to evaluate, I believe it's useful looking at victims he claimed such as Kathleen Johns and Donna Lass, not just to evaluate whether he was the responsible, but to evaluate his way of thinking. If he claimed Johns and Lass, would law enforcement believe his claims based on his existing crimes and their locations. The further the crime he is claiming or insinuating, the less likely he is to be believed, so if he was a Vallejo resident he would use this anchor point to reasonably weigh up whether he should claim a victim or not. This gives us that mental geographic profile of a killer, in absence of more known and proven crimes. It gives us a wider picture of his thought processes, which are inextricably bound in the reality of where he lives.

This is why I examined his use of past and present tense in the July 31st 1969 letters in respect to his mailings ie: "have" and "are", where he is subconsciously giving away his home location by a mental image of his delivery points to the Chronicle, Examiner and Vallejo Times. Criminals being interviewed about their missing wife, inadvertently using the past tense, usually a clue they know she is dead and they are the killer, is another example. Somebody ringing the police and describing in detail what they had done prior to discovering the blooded corpse of their wife could be construed as setting up an alibi to the operator. Totally unnecessary - just send a bloody ambulance. In summary, that is why I think it's important to examine all these claimed crimes, because although Zodiac wasn't likely responsible for any, he paints us a picture of where he is prepared to travel and what would be construed as believable to law enforcement, governed by the actual location of his residence. That includes his use of language in his communications, which he can manufacture most of the time, but occasionally he will leak the truth subconsciously.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 08:14:08 am

Absolutely Richard , on looking at what the Zodiac was looking at , as potential victims that he could claim for . The Zodiac may have set out some general plan when he elected to become '' The Zodiac'', but it was a '' journey '' for him , a well as law enforcement , in trying to keep up with him and , even stay ahead of him , once the terms of engagement were established .

And , I think it would have become apparent to the Zodiac , quite early on , that law enforcement weren't going to just sit back and allow him to claim for victims , without proof . So , sometimes the Zodiac was having to '' scratch around '' a bit , looking at ways and means of justifying his victim quantities , for example .

This '' 8th victim '' mystery remains the most significant unanswered question , of his 1969 antics , and by highlighting possible '' candidates '' , might help police solve other murders , at that time ( ? ) .

If the above , is the real reason for LE taking so long , to be transparent with the public (..in my estimation , almost 6 years..) , then it is excusable , to an extent .

But , it seems to me that , LE in general , and Departments of Justice in particular , are losing the plot over what is in the public's best interests. I believe that they could have arrested , what I believe to be an '' alive Zodiac '', at any time in the last three years .

What I perceive , as a '' holding off '' is a terrible gamble , both morally and judicially . If , as seems , the judiciary hope to solve many cases , at the same time as the Zodiac's .

~Bill

5/31/2020 11:25:03 am

Another way to view the victim counts mentioned in the letters:

Up to, and shortly after the canonical killings, the letter writer mentions up to 13 or 14. Then we see a jump to a much higher number, then to an "unbelievable" number at 37, and an "completely absurd" number at 100+ (if that letter is considered to be from the "accepted" letter stack. It would be a nice "ace in the hole" to mess with LE again by just getting a murder article, the earlier the better, cutting a couple of clippings about the event (containing some details), and just keep them in a notebook. If he were pressed for details, he would be able to come up with seemingly "pertinent" crime information from past murders instantly just by looking at a notebook quickly, leading LE down more rabbit holes. Once he was sure that LE wasn't overly inquisitive about these "missing" murders, he probably stopped making careful notes and just threw out ridiculous numbers, maybe even as another "dark sarcasm" which most people, including LE, absolutely do not "GET". It's just my opinion, and should just be taken for "what it's worth".

Richard

5/31/2020 12:23:27 pm

I once calculated using the average time period between murder totals from the beginning at LHR to number 14 (and 17 without the plus sign) and then calculated what his victim count should have been on January 29th 1974 and May 6th 1986, to see if he himself had extrapolated the totals using mathematics or had just plucked the totals from thin air. If we calculated between Dec 20 1968 and Mar 13 1971 inclusive, he claimed a victim every 47.82 days. Between Mar 13 1971 and Jan 29 1974, he was claiming a victim every 52.65 days. Between Jan 29 1974 and May 6 1986, he was claiming a victim every 71.11 days. So his claimed victim count was actually slowing down. It wasn't actually unrealistic, but of course absolutely no proof of one murder beyond October 11th 1969.

~Bill

5/31/2020 02:05:34 pm

Richard,

Spot on observation for sure. It would be a slowing pace after the "speeding up" to the Stine murder. If I may say a little about victim count and the sudden change, and this is just my complete speculation, Z left so much behind during this block of time from Dec 68 through 70-71, just 2-3 years. This is such a small amount of time in the duration of this case (just a couple of years longer if you include Bates). There is so little else outside this small window (looking in retrospect of course) that it is difficult to understand how more physical evidence wasn't left behind. What I mean is-it is a near-perfect social transition from one personality to another-a "crazed murderer" to a "concerned citizen". I would hope that LE, especially after the FBI was involved, that the search for "red flags" would have been multi-jurisdictional, near state-wide, with these indicators sent to the highest jurisdiction in charge, be it CA DOJ or FBI. Dozens of murders could slip through, but, statistically speaking, a 100+ is a long stretch, even for forensics at that time. I also believe it was important for him to get his "jabs" at LE with the written letters. I believe it settled some of his anger. I believe after the killing of Stine, something else "settles his anger", and this person changes from a "crazed killer" to a "concerned citizen". In my opinion, he saw an opportunity and was smart enough to take it. After the Stine murder, someone that close to capture, who cared to evade/escape at all, would realize he can't continue killing to prove he's the one doing it because it is going to get him caught. Any one that didn't care to evade/escape would have been captured by now. This is a lot of I thinks, but my look is as good as anyone's until one is proven beyond a doubt over the others. One thing is certain though, when he wrote about "changing the way" in which he committed his murders, he was 100% honest whether he committed 5 or 500. If there are more authentic crimes or communications, I think you all on these threads will hit on it. Great posts and topics! Rubislaw32, love the pages you pulled up from the FBI Vault! I'll be reading these for days! :P

P.S.-I hope not too rambling, or too many typos

~Bill

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 01:19:23 pm

I believe that once it was known that Karl Werner intended to plead guilty for Snoozy , Furlong and Bilek , then the Zodiac knew that there was little point him attempting to claim for a realistic or accurate number , again .

Werner was convicted on the three murders , in September of 1971 .

After this , claims by the Zodiac , usually as a postscript , were just '' tongue in cheek '' , as such , and merely served to remind law enforcement that they had yet to apprehend him , and that he was still '' doing his thing '' .

With , the Exorcist Letter being a confession , of sorts , that he , the Zodiac '' might '' be responsible for the letters that have more usually been attributed to D B Cooper . And , '' 37 '' actually referring to the innocent victims subjected to Dan Cooper's skyjacking .

~Bill

5/31/2020 02:40:37 pm

I also agree with a lot of this this Rubislaw32, especially the Werner connection. In my view, the game was up for Z for just "claiming". And since he nearly got caught "proving" the last one, he may have thought the game was over for "legitimacy". Only speculation though, and love to hear others' point's of view. Love the posts!

~Bill

~Bill

5/31/2020 04:18:23 pm

Its interesting, Rubislaw32 that you bring up the Exorcist letter as a "confession" of sorts. I also see it very similar with, of course the "overt" sarcastic tone at the beginning. And of course the suicide reference at the end. In my opinion the "suicide" of the Zodiac persona, and the lifelong perpetuation of the "citizen" persona. This is just my personal thought.

~Bill

~Bill

5/31/2020 04:43:30 pm

Sorry, don't know if I'm being clear, the "echo from the suicide's grave" being the "birth" of the "citizen". Sorry for leaving it out of the above post. Hope it makes a little sense.

~Bill

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 04:49:50 pm

Yes ,its almost as if the conviction of Karl Werner , broke the Zodiac's sense of invincibility . The Zodiac was smart enough to know that the game was up , and time to retreat from his Bay area ''arena ''.

Well, as a compulsive hoaxer , that the real Zodiac undoubtedly was , he wouldn't have had long to wait for new material , with Dan Cooper jumping out of a jet airliner , carrying $200,000 , just two months later .

And 1974 being mostly dominated by the SLA and kidnapping of Patty Hearst .

The '' material '' kept coming for this strange man , and even attempted to resurrect the Zodiac , but really with little success , until Robert Graysmith's book was published .

Then, notoriety for ever more .

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 02:37:02 pm

Thanks Bill , and strange how certain aspects sometimes seem to come together , when discussing the Zodiac .

Well , Page 36 of ABSCAM File 1 has left me a bit numb on an '' identical '' handwriting comparison . But , most readers are aware of the 1986 & 1987 letters for a probable favourable comparison, anyway .

These sorts of comparisons might lead to a concluded identity of a hoaxer , but we still need LE to get the forensics right , to find the Zodiac , as a murderer .

But , the word '' Caliph '' is quite disturbing .How many do or did know , in western culture , what it actually means ( ? ) , A regional Muslim leader , going back centuries .

I believe that the Zodiac saw its apt '' pun '' quality with '' Calif '' , and hence claimed that he , the Zodiac , was '' Son of the Mighty Caliph ''. In essence , the alias of Ali Baba .

But , traditionally , there is no reference to this being true , in the original story of Ali Baba . So , where did the Zodiac acquire this '' erroneous '' information ?

The answer appears to be , in the 1965 '' fun for all the family '' film : The Sword of Ali Baba .

And hence , the inference being that the Zodiac employed the solution to the '' My name is ----'' cipher , to also have a dig at CA DOJ criminologists , that had attempted to mask the fact that the Zodiac used a sword bayonet , at Lake Berryessa.......from he public .

~Bill

5/31/2020 02:58:24 pm

I'm looking now- what a batch good "Z" candidate letters from the "citizens concerning" social or governmental wrongdoing. Honestly, you see the same posts today, but the letters are "pre-internet". As far as "Caliph" and "Calif", it is interesting. I need to study the pages to get a good interpretation. I am excited to have a good look at these, if for nothing else, curiosity and "nosiness". In my view, this is the exact sort of social issue that he might be "concerned" about though. Thanks again for referencing it!

~Bill

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 05:37:06 pm

Thanks for the tip on the Zodiac's likelihood of donning welder's glasses as Lake Berryessa , BB .

Indeed , it does seem a feasible choice , given also his perceived interest in automotive engineering .

And , this is how I see the Zodiac having taken such a keen interest in the Cheri Jo Bates murder , believing that he was attending a part-time welding course , with the automotive department , at Riverside College ,

The Zodiac , I believe , is responsible for the accompanying correspondences to the Cheri Jo Case . But the jury is out , on his culpability for her murder , for me , to date .

5/31/2020 07:09:34 pm

Brother Rubislaw. Don't worry about differing over some dumb Zodiac thing or another.
If we were the same on everything it would be boring.
Partly, how we grow is by looking at other peoples perspectives.
The last thing Richard is looking for is to become some cult leader where we all nod in unison.
Please present the case against and I'll keep gathering evidence for and we can show people
how to politely disagree without cursing each other out. Peace

Rubislaw 32 link

5/31/2020 08:58:52 pm

Thanks for your conciliatory attitude , BB .

I think '' flux '' is a good word - that we all have the willingness to move and change certain perspectives , according to new information .

I was , for about a year , bought into the notion that the Zodiac actually murdered Cheri Jo Bates . But now stand on the fence about it , with sway to '' not '' ,but that could change again .

One ''difficulty '' is ,that beyond a reasonable doubt , that she spent about two hours that evening with a girlfriend and her girlfriend's boyfriend . Information on this couple has been suppressed , probably for understandable reasons....but reasons for which we will never be privy to , unless their is a resolution to Cheri Jo's case .

So, this couple , for whom I feel sorry , in that they have had to keep quiet , all these years , probably in the best interests of justice....must know something ''telling '' ,that could change most people's perception of what happened that evening .

Perhaps too much ''incomplete '' information , to be certain of much that is presumed definite ( ? ) .

Just wish I could obtain a student enrolment list .Graysmith is rumoured to have one ,for Riverside College .

~Bill

6/1/2020 06:11:55 am

Having the student enrollment list would indeed be a very good set of names to review. For me, also, I would love to have the name and other demographics of the "Mexican-American" student who reported seeing CJB at the library.

~Bill

Richard

6/1/2020 08:03:57 am

Contact this guy. He knows the name of the Mexican-American student and I think spoke to him. I can't remember his name offhand.

https://murderincorp.wordpress.com/contracts/

~Bill

6/1/2020 11:13:39 am

Rubislaw32, we know the Z writer was aware of The Beatles. If he ever did post anything on these threads, I think it might be a reference to "We can work it out". People have to be willing to view things differently.

~Bill

Richard

6/1/2020 03:46:53 am

Since you are looking around the FBI files looking for anything connected to Zodiac Rubislaw, you remember the Steve McQueen Zodiac letter from June 8th 1977 threatening a load of celebrities that included Farrah Fawcett Majors.From April 1976 through to 1978, extortion was directed towards to Farrah Fawcett Majors, Jacqueline Onassis, Elizabeth Taylor and Cordelia Wallace from Cleveland/Akron, Ohio again. All envelopes carried the message "Read this letter. If you don't I will shoot you. I got a .25 calibre". The author was extorting money. Page 128 Part 1 of Elizabeth Taylor files. Almost certainly not Zodiac, but fits around the Steve McQueen letter, also including Farrah Fawcett Majors.

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 06:12:16 am

Thanks for that Richard , and will have a look,at Ms.Taylor's file .

I'm about half-way through the 20,000-odd pages of Watergate , but few hoaxers featured , so far .

An interesting fact about Cleveland is , that it produced about 25 astronauts , including John Glenn and Neil Armstrong...and Jim Lovell , I believe ( Apollo 13 ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 04:26:00 pm

Interesting , with the extortion bid , for whom the FBI were convinced that it was an '' Edward Copeland '', targeting all women celebrities , and wanting $25,000 from each .

So often , these regular hoaxers aren't interested in money .They seem to want attention , and believe they have a true understanding of a given situation , with everyone else being mesmerised by their knowledge and worldliness.

As with the Zodiac .

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 06:45:33 am

....also , there are two other typed letters . but much shorter , from '' our '' Der Fuhrer man , in the HEARNAP files , but will have to re-find them .He signs with different names , in these other letters .

Might consider looking at the longer version of the J Edgar Hoover files ( huge ? ).

The interesting point about the Nixon / concerned citizen for freedom postcard is , that it encompasses both Patty Hearst kidnapping and Watergate scandal ( Rich White Pen Wash ) .

Interesting perhaps , that J Edgar Hoover died May 2nd 1972 . And that the Watergate burglary took place on June 17th 1972 , just after Hoover's funeral .

With '' The Cat '' now gone , '' The Mice '' could play ?

I have the Zodiac down , for referring to Hoover,as '' Cid '' , meaning master or lord , in Spanish .

6/1/2020 01:11:02 pm

The Plumbers, were a secret White House Special Investigations criminal gang. Hobbled together a week after the publication of the "Pentagon Papers" in June 1971, when Richard Nixon was Prez. They were out to stop the leaking of so called classified information, such as the Pentagon Papers,(that were actually earlier made public) to the news media. They screwed the Ellsberg psychiatrist "break-in". The operators were in other illegal activities too. While working at the White House they did other crime as CREEP. They were Nixon's "fixers". They had an office in the White House. It was Poppy Bush's. His dad Prescott Bush was Nixon's benefactor going back to Nixon's days as VP... Who paid him? Brown Brothers Harriman & Co..

Rubislaw 32 link

6/2/2020 03:23:27 am

Hey BB , just been back to the first 3 FBI Files of ABSCAM , and there was obviously '' A person '' responsible for upwards of 50 % of the initial positive public reaction to the FBI sting , that the FBI received , for which the are willing to show in the files.

This '' person '' started mailing in early February , obviously knowledgeable about the different forms of mail available to him , and moved about the country , mostly in three main areas - California , North-east coast and South-east coast . And , by March , was changing his tact , from congratulatory to accusing the FBI of entrapment .

From a personal point of view , I believe that I know who it is . There are a number of clues on content , apart from ones like '' Caliph '' and '' Benicia '' . One such other one is '' Hades ''. Now , who on earth would come up , with the god Hades , whe referring to an FBI investigation ?

Anyway , thanks , it was your inspiration that made me spot the '' Bident of Hades '' in the Z340 .The '' Bident '' refers to events at UCLA , on January 17th 1969 , with the assassinations of two Balck Panther student leaders , Bunchy Carter and John Huggins , by ex-FBI agent , and inferred Hoover '' Coon '' , Claude Hubert .

6/2/2020 08:22:51 am

No clue - sorry

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 07:08:27 am

J Edgar Hoover's funeral , May 4th 1972 .

They didn't waste much time , to put him underground ?

Imagine all the conspiring going on , when they gathered to pay their last respects . Some private Wakes must have been '' celebrations '' , in certain quarters ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 12:06:11 pm

Well ,well...looks like '' our '' Der Fuhrer man was exposed , as in evidence , in the FBI's Watergate Files .

Palming himself of as Jimmie Jackson Jr., Editor , he was actually :

James Oliver Jackson - who was known to have been a compulsive hoaxer , since 1963 , and had been declared legally insane in 1972 , with some time spent in a mental institute .

There are examples of his handwriting . A letter to Commanding Officer Headquarters , at Fort Sam Houston , Texas . And another to the Commanding Officer at Fort Bragg , North Carolina .

Both the above letters , dated May 10th 1973 , about 7 months before the Der Fuhrer typed letter . It seems that then , anyway , the Watergate scandal had depressed Mr. Jackson .

Ref : Watergate FBI File 54 , Pages 9,10,68,69,70,78,79 .

Was James Oliver Jackson a.k.a.James E.Jackson Jr. , Leader of the U.S.Communist Party.....The Zodiac Killer ?

Doubtful , and Mr. T. J. Voigt a.k.a. Doctor Fauci , was only six years old , at the time .

Rubislaw 32 link

6/1/2020 12:17:11 pm

....so , both Harland Sanders and Sammy Davis Jr. were hoaxed by James Oliver Jackson .

Richard

6/1/2020 02:00:32 pm

Well, thanks for ruining that story Rubislaw...only kidding. I shall take a look.

Toots

6/1/2020 03:44:44 pm

Thanks Richard for the callout, I really appreciate it.

Marina Habe's father was an interesting guy with a lot of coincidences that Zodiac might have taken an interest in.

Not only did he own a bunch of newspapers, but in 1942 he was drafted into the US Army and studied Psychological warfare at the Military Intelligence Training Center at Camp Ritchie, Maryland.

In 1944 he became an Instructor of Psychological Warfare at Camp Sharpe, near Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.

Toots

6/1/2020 05:19:23 pm

Does anyone know what Reet's father did for a living? I know the Jurvetson’s parents were Estonian refugees who traveled to Canada in 1951, settling in Montreal. Reet was born in Sweden.

I've seen a photo of the father in a tuxedo and he certainly looked like a James Bond type of guy.

6/1/2020 05:39:28 pm

The men in black aka secret agent men are not moved by or hurt
by violence to themselves. You get to them through their families.
Perhaps that is what happened to Joan Webster and others too.

Toots

6/1/2020 05:43:23 pm

BB,
Exactly what I was thinking!

6/1/2020 06:41:20 pm

It's fun and games

David Ferrie

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death10.htm

6/2/2020 12:41:55 pm

The Manson murders.
The Zodiac murders.
Theses are just the most famous murders of 1969.
There are many many others that went on that year.
There is a commonality of the political narrative being associated with hippies.
Hoover hated hippies because they were opposed to the war.
They were at the center of the peace movement.
He wanted the public to think all these murders were because of hippies.
Guilt by association. The public bought into the idea. And in the mind
of the average American - if you strive towards freedom - you are going
to lose your mind and start killing everybody in-sight.
Of course that is not true. But that requires education.
And if your idea requires the truth - then according to the
rules of debate - you lose. Because the lie takes further research to debunk.
And it requires an audience that is honestly wanting to hear the truth.
And has not already settled for the cozy lie.

Tom1

6/2/2020 07:10:33 pm

Some people seem confused by simplicity. There are hundreds, if not thousands of unsolved murders in Calif since the Zodiac era. The percentage increased dramatically about that time. Connecting dots between random not related events is not productive. Don’t claim inside knowledge without the courage to at least give us commoners a hint or two.

THE REET JURVETSON MURDER

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