THE MYTH OF THE BERRYESSA COPYCAT

6/30/2018

For many years, some observers have questioned the September 27th 1969 Lake Berryessa attack on Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard as a genuine Zodiac crime. It is claimed that the MO of this crime wasn't like Zodiac, despite the fact he altogether only committed three other confirmed attacks in which Presidio Heights, one could argue, wasn't his MO either. The amount of crimes ascribed to the Zodiac Killer isn't a large enough sample size to make such astronomical claims based on modus operandi.

Some people also believe that the attacker at Lake Berryessa intended to leave at least one victim alive (in this case Bryan Hartnell), because murdering both would have negated the wearing of the costume. This argument carries no weight whatsoever. Bryan Hartnell was bound hand and foot approximately 510 yards from the nearest roadway (Knoxville Road), and was brutally stabbed in the back six times, which resulted in extensive blood loss. In the 2007 Zodiac documentary he recalled the memories of his fight for life:after struggling to free himself from the clothesline bindings: "So I got up and made it about 5 feet and the sparkles and the darkness came back and I had to drop down immediately to keep from passing out. I'd just lost too much blood and had no energy to move. So I waited a minute, got some more strength, and thought I'm going to have to do this a little slower. I made it another five feet and dropped down myself. So I started just taking 5, 10 feet intervals, and found that if I wasn't trying to walk fast and walked bent over holding my chest and walk slower, I could make more distance in between having to stop and rest. I made it about halfway to the road and saw some lights coming". This is where he was eventually aided by park ranger Dennis Land.

At approximately 7:10 pm, or very shortly after, Ranger William White radioed Park Headquarters to summon an ambulance and deputies to the crime scene. An ambulance from Naps arrived at the crime scene at approximately 7:55 pm, and returned back to the Queen of the Valley Hospital, arriving at 8:50 pm. That is an approximate journey time of 45 minutes each way, including 10 minutes negotiating the crime scene. Therefore, one would have to assume that the attacker with an extensive knowledge of anatomy, surgically delivered the knife wounds to Bryan Hartnell, knowing he would free his bindings and would be discovered by a third party in a particular amount of time, as well as somebody who could factor in advance the overall time the ambulance would take to arrive at the crime scene and return to the hospital. Furthermore, calculating the blood loss to be suffered by Bryan Hartnell in order for him to be subsequently saved by the hospital surgeons and thereby recount his experience of being attacked by a costumed slayer with crosshairs on his chest. This is a totally unrealistic proposition.

It is clear that the Zodiac Killer (or copycat) intended to kill both Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell - and thought he had - evident by the payphone call placed in Napa approximately 70 minutes later, in which the killer stated "I want to report a murder, no, a double murder. They are two miles north of Park Headquarters. They were in a white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia. I'm the one that did it". So why did the attacker wear a costume with crosshairs on the front if he had no intention of leaving the couple alive? The Zodiac had every reason to wear the crosshairs symbol, but the copycat didn't.

The attack took place during daylight hours, at 6:30 pm or slightly earlier - so the killer, whether Zodiac or copycat, had good reason to wear a costume or disguise in case he was spotted by any eyewitnesses - something I'm sure he was keen to avoid. For those in the copycat camp, the writing on the car door of Bryan Hartnell's 1956 White Karmann Ghia and the telephone call to police dispatcher Dave Slaight is not sufficient proof it was the Zodiac Killer, because the style of the handwriting on the car door and composition of the message in the phone call (based on the Blue Rock Springs call) were widely available in many newspapers, and could easily have been reproduced by a copycat. It is therefore imperative we find another reason to tie the Lake Berryessa attack to the Zodiac Killer rather than a copycat.

Bryan Hartnell stated that the assailant wore a black hooded mask made of a cloth material, covering his entire head and shoulders, reaching down to the waist. On the front of the four cornered mask at the chest area was a white circle (3 x 3 inches in diameter) and a symmetrical cross. He would further elaborate on the design of the crosshairs, as well as later in the 2007 Zodiac documentary, stating "It looked like it was made with a machine or with some degree of care- it wasn't just scrawled on with white paint. It was proportional".

Why would a copycat killer meticulously sew on perfectly symmetrical crosshairs onto a carefully crafted costume, when he had no intention of leaving anybody alive to report it. If the crime had been committed by a copycat, then imitating the Zodiac Killer's writing on the car door and subsequent phone call should have sufficed. He could simply have disguised his features with a mask, balaclava or plain hood. The same could be said of the Zodiac Killer, I hear you saying. However, there is one big difference.

The Zodiac Killer had murdered three and seriously injured a fourth person at this juncture, and had bathed in the spotlight of numerous newspaper articles in his name. This must have fed his egotistical nature - and in his own mind - elevated him to another level of self-aggrandizement. The idea that he would then carefully craft a costume befitting of such an infamous and feared villain, doesn't seem that far-fetched. Would a copycat spend this much time creating an elaborate costume bedecked with crosshairs, when nobody was going to be left alive to report their observations to police? It would be a pointless waste of time. A copycat would have just reproduced the handwriting on the car door and made the payphone call. The Zodiac Killer, on the other hand, had every reason to adorn himself with a costume befitting of the man he thought he was.

Rubislaw 32 link

6/30/2018 05:11:18 pm

I certainly agree with your assessment,Richard,on why Zodiac appears to have taken time and trouble over his attire.

He was,quite simply,ego driven.His intention,as it transpires,was to murder both Bryan and Cecilia,and we presume,not be spotted doing so.....nor,in absconding the crime scene.

The efforts Zodiac had made,was to look the part,a be the persona he had created.

The thrill would come,when Zodiac confronted the couple,and they would recoil in horror,at recognition of this notorious villain,now the talk of Northern California.

And later that day,he would be able to bask in that glory,and the way he instilled fear.

Unfortunately,he went down,a bit like a wet balloon.Bryan and Cecilia,couldn't actually distinguish him,from any other ''run of the mill'' weirdo.

Trust students to never read the papers,nor watch the news....nor ever have more than a couple of brass farthings,to rub together [?].

Drew

6/30/2018 06:09:46 pm

Beyond the door message it could be said that Zodiac again took claim for the crime throughout several of his following letters. Two weeks after the attack in his next letter on Oct 13 he describes himself as the one who did the people in the 'north bay area' rather than the killer of the Vallejo people as he summarily described those murders on the door and in his first letters. Then in the dripping pen card he alludes to a claim of victim(s) in September. The arguably authentic Dec 16 second Fairfield letter carried the theme of a knife attack which would be odd for a killer who only used guns. Skip ahead to the Halloween card and he includes a reference to killing by knife and by rope.

I think after leaving a survivor at his previous Vallejo attack he may have also felt that the hood would prevent a reoccurrence of this situation from potentially resulting in a visual identification to authorities. The story he gave Hartnell was likely a rehearsed anecdote intended to aide him in corralling the victims rather than something revealing that he could potentially share if he survived, so for me the idea that Zodiac anticipated his potential to survive remains a possibility. Although anyone would be unlikely to survive such an assault, if he needed to ensure their immediate assassination (rather than allowing them to suffer longer) he could have attacked their throats. I certainly believe it was Zodiac and that he tried to kill them and thought he had but because he was prepared with the disguise it was not essential to his success, even though his count excluded injured victims (he still gloated about Blue Rock Springs).

Rubislaw 32 link

6/30/2018 07:55:03 pm

Yes Drew,I agree about Zodiac's rehearsed anecdote.He was just simply lying.

It was probably always his intention,to mask his face,that day....but we are confronted with the knowledge of a ''costume'',and the theatrical nature of it [?].

The ''showman'' inside,trying to get out [?].

Just on a more general point...or question to anyone :

These 4 high profile Bay Area attacks,are presumed linked,and more particularly deemed the responsibility of one man,who called himself ''The Zodiac''.

This,according to L.E. officially....and their finding,going back many years.....regardless of what others may believe.

Since they came to that conclusion....it's not as if they have ever changed their minds,or wavered on the matter.

So,there must be ''forensic evidence'' that ''sticks'' those four serious crimes together [?].

I'm just trying to get my head around this ridiculous notion,that the authorities,and say,in the last twenty years,''don't'' have a DNA profile of this man responsible for those attacks.

The DNA profile used to eliminate the likes of William Grant,Arthur Leigh Allen,and Mr.X,was ''signed for'' by the FBI and CA DOJ,who gave personal assurances,to President Bush.

There has never been any official ''climb down'' on this.

So,why are we having to put up with the ambiguous claims,by the Vallejo Police Department,that they suddenly feel the need to find a Zodiac DNA profile ??

Judith

6/30/2018 08:36:03 pm

It's the handwriting on the car door that seals the deal. By the way, what is that picture of the Napa Sheriff's holding a car door all covered in brown paper.
Is there writing on the car that the public has never been aware of?

Richard

7/1/2018 12:08:03 am

That was covered to conceal the entirety of the message Judith. They didn't reveal to newspapers at the time the wording "by knife" at the foot of the message, so as to withhold information known only to them and the killer. This would separate the real killer from hoaxers if and when they wrote or called the police.

7/11/2018 02:31:51 pm

Richard
They kept the bonnet/hood as well as the door. Was something written on it they don't want us to see?

also - Officer Fouke says suspect's boots were tan in color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1omc5Zec57U
Does that match-up with wing-walkers?

Karen C

7/11/2018 04:18:22 pm

I get the feeling there were lots of things held back from the public about this case. I'm guessing the info will be released eventually, but perhaps not for another 20 years or so. I can guarantee that the amount of information the public does not have about this case will be much greater than the amount it does have.

I can only speculate that the bonnet was held for the possibility of finding partial prints. They may, for instance, have found oil residue in places, which could have suggested the suspect had lifted the hood. For all we know, he may have disabled the vehicle, just in case his crime did not go according to plan. He may have been playing out many possible scenarios in his mind prior to the attack on the couple and not wanting to leave too much to chance. For example, what if someone in the distance saw him? What if the victims were also armed? What if they fought back and one escaped? etc. etc. etc. An attack in a public place in the open could result in any number of possibilities, so the attacker had to take some precautions and prepare himself for other eventualities.

Alex Lewis

7/22/2018 02:35:50 am

The Hood I think was a Partial Palm impression. The Latent fingerprint lifts were on the window hglass, I was sent the evidence tag to go with the window lifts and it states:

"9-28-69 latent lift from window glass passenger side K'ghia 3" from bottom and 3" from (illegible) frame one (illegible)."

This then is followed by the evidence No. L/U2040 and the case No. (105907) is written on tag with evidence itself, for which a photo of latents is clear on the glass.

Destry sent me this that He unearthed in His Father Harvey's documents and files on the case.

Richard

7/1/2018 01:41:01 am

It is clear we would be having the same arguments for the murder of Paul Stine, but for the letters and shirt piece. Even without the shirt piece, the handwriting of the October 13th letter would be coming under attack. Just claiming the Berryessa attack could have been done by a copycat doesn't mean it was. This is not evidence of a copycat. Equally, the notion of the handwriting on the door isn't proof of Zodiac, can be flipped that it isn't proof of a copycat. Comparisons of this handwriting is fraught with danger, it wasn't written in the comfort of his home or workplace, resting his palm (maybe wearing gloves) on the paper. It was presumably written after a brutal double stabbing, with adrenaline flowing, either squatting or sitting in front of a car door, likely in haste. Even the camber on the car door is to be reckoned with, when writing above and below your natural writing position. Comparing this handwriting with individual alphabetical letters Zodiac wrote at his writing desk is immediately supposing both situations are starting on an equal footing.
There are three E's on the car door- all totally different. There are four 6's- all totally different. But we don't believe there were three or four individuals sitting in front of the car door writing different letters and numbers. To compare individual letters dragged randomly from different letters, or to the car door is junk science. Comparing whole documents or complete letters to one another carries some weight, but not scouring every letter until you find a W that looks most similar to bolster your argument. Handwriting analysis is useful, but can be misused in this way. The writer on the car door couldn't even replicate his own handwriting within the same minute of writing- not surprising when you consider his position and the fact he had just inflicted 16 forceful stab wounds on a defenseless couple.
As you stated Drew, although he didn't write a comprehensive letter about the crime, is not proof of a copycat. Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence. As you said, the references to knife on the Fairfield and Halloween card, the claim of Sept and possibly the dripping blood pen, stating I've just washed my pen, could be inferring blood dripping from the pen as he is writing on the car door, are all indicators if not proof.
Like you both said, he likely had a rehearsed introduction to force compliance from the victims, notably I just escaped from prison and killed two guards and I will kill again. After this initial introduction, his interaction dropped off, unless prompted by Hartnell.
As for DNA profiles Rubislaw, we were promised a big DNA year in 2017 that never materialized. This new round of chatter about DNA began in May, just after the identification of the GSK. But police insisted the Golden State Killer was not the driver- that they had for several months been pursuing new DNA tests in the Zodiac case. Being generous and saying the new investigation into Zodiac DNA began in March, then we are now into July and nothing. Four months to carry out DNA tests and generate a valid or otherwise full profile of the killer. I hope I'm wrong but all I hear are crickets. Replicating extremely minute samples of DNA using polymerase chain reaction can be done in days. Four months is a long time, and like a jury, the longer it takes, the less likely there will be a conviction or result. Personally, I have given up on these endless false hopes, but again, I do hope my scepticism is proved wrong.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/1/2018 04:38:59 am

Thanks for your re-assuring comments,Richard.

I am not prepared to go barmy,over this.One or two site contributors ought to know better,but elect not to be confronted by the truth of the matter.

In my own words :

''The CA DOJ should be ashamed of themselves,for persuading the Vallejo Police Department to prevaricate,on their behalf.

The V.P.D.,and similar provincial police forces,are not afforded the protection and secrecy,that appears to be bestowed on Departments of Justice.

Unlike the CA DOJ,the V.P.D. are not well practised in lying and procrastination,and it clearly does not sit well,with them.

The CA DOJ are merely buying time,while they wait for another judicial agency,to get them out of jail,over the ''debacle'' that was their making - The unsolved case of the Zodiac Killer.''.

Thank you.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/1/2018 05:24:57 pm

Good news that the Arlis Perry case has been solved.

Ms.Perry was found murdered in Stanford Memorial Church,in 1974.

A recent series of forensic tests,finally yielded the incriminating evidence that Stephen Crawford,the church security guard,that claimed to have discovered her body,was the culprit.

Mr.Crawford committed suicide,when L.E. came to arrest him.

One less of those cases,where the Zodiac was considered a suspect.

7/1/2018 06:13:05 pm

Stephen Blake Crawford, 72 police warned him otherwise they could have surprised him and made the arrest. Good find Rubislaw 32.
How did you do it? What put you on his trail?

Rubislaw 32 link

7/1/2018 07:01:25 pm

Hi BB.

The news on Crawford came first,from my site manager,Mr.Gomez.

''Zodiac'' is a different kettle of fish.

I am grateful to Richard for giving me the opportunity,to have a go at the CA DOJ.

They have had it coming.The way they have pulled ''a fast one'',at the public's expense...and for whom they are supposed to serve.

Almost four years ago,the CA DOJ had their noses put out of joint,when they were excluded in an arrangement,over a certain murdered person's case file.

When they found out,they went crying all the way to ''POTUS'',via their big brother,the US DOJ.

Perhaps they might reflect,now,that the reason why they were excluded,in the first place,was because they were seen as ''second raters'',who couldn't organise a ''brew up'' in a prison.

So I claim.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/2/2018 02:55:16 am

If I could just take this opportunity,Richard,to offer hope and generosity of spirit.

It really matters that sites such as yours,give us the chance to debate the Zodiac case.To pick the bones of it,and unearth a few truths,however small they might seem.Your bank of knowledge and level headed wisdom,is a fillip to us all.

I do believe that the case will be resolved.I think that we just have to understand that the CA DOJ allowed it to become so messed up,that there isn't a cat's chance in hell that the Bay Area crimes,will ever be winnable,on their own merits,in a court of law.

Without meaning to be too cryptic,our one chance comes with a man,whom I refer to,as ''The Puppet Master''.He works largely behind closed doors,and out of the public gaze.Naturally,his background is public prosecution,and happens to be the most successful prosecutor of serial killers,in the 950 year history of English Common Law.

Though nothing is a given,I believe that he is the only person,that can pull this one out of the fire.

Just a nod also,in admiration of the one ''entity'',in the last four years,that has behaved with integrity,and discretion - The Vallejo Times Herald.

The quest for more knowledge about the case of the Zodiac Killer,continues.

Those that work hardest,will end up with the greatest rewards.

Richard

7/2/2018 06:30:05 am

Good news regarding the Arlis Perry case Rubislaw.
https://news.stanford.edu/2018/06/29/break-cold-case/

This site hopefully explores different angles to the crimes and is a help to anyone new to the case, but I certainly know that what I do has little impact (if none) to actually resolving the case. The problem, is that if anyone in the Zodiac scene does unearth something useful, and that goes for anybody, the chance of it being picked up by law enforcement or relevant bodies is practically zero. There is a lot of ridicule afforded the Zodiac sleuth, and the overwhelmingly and often misguided swamping of authorities inboxes with every theory under the sun has obviously made it impossible to recognize or take seriously the genuine tip or lead that comes in. The police are underfunded with more current pressing issues and quite frankly are probably fed up with every Zodiac pundit flooding their email boxes, hotlines and mail sacks ranging from the petty suspicions and endless suspect suggestions, to the countless decrypted ciphers where everybody is absolutely unequivocal of the solve, and the demand for DNA transparency. The one time something useful ever drops on their mat, they have built up such a degree of scepticism and "eye rolling" indignation, that it will simply join the ever growing pile in the trash can beneath the tip-line or suggestion box. I certainly don't blame the police anymore, and can understand why they lump all Zodiac sleuths into the same 'delusional amateur' bracket.
For anybody following the Zodiac case over many years, who did actually unearth something substantial, would need cooperation from the police or news organization of any standing to get it recognized.
I am realistic enough to know that any article I write, or any contributor to this site in comments, hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of being recognized by anybody in law enforcement or investigative agency, no matter if the finding was ground breaking. That requires promotion. Point in case are Ross Sullivan and Lawrence Kane. Fringe suspects who are now definite top Zodiac candidates off the back of a free History Channel promotion. This is the vehicle needed for groundbreaking or viable investigative angles by individuals to reach a wider audience, but unfortunately sensationalist stories and conspiracy theories are the order of the day. Boring facts don't sell, only wild speculation and controversy. Thomas Horan is case in point- call the whole thing a hoax, claim you've solved the 340, bring 4 or 5 collaborators into the mix, accuse Graysmith of being a fraud and wow- what a story. Alternatively, state you are a retired detective to give yourself more credence, then claim your charge is responsible for the Jimmy Hoffa disappearance, JonBenet Ramsey murder, Zodiac killings, Black Dahlia murder and just about every other crime ever committed, and then watch the news channels and newspapers in a feeding frenzy. To claim all this and not be embarrassed to call yourself a retired police detective and keep a straight face, makes the mind boggle. These caricatures of themselves are partly to blame why this case has become a parody rather than a serious attempt at finding the truth, but unfortunately this is what current popular media is searching for, not the boring fart talking about fingerprint or ballistic evidence. They want a larger than life evil genius Zodiac, in Moriarty style, or a grand conspiracy to rival Sandy Hook- not the grey sleuth pissing around with real evidence. The reason I say this Rubislaw, is because unfortunately I don't hold your optimism this case will ever be solved. For me anyway, its become a parody of itself and I will celebrate the day I pack my bags on this case. I hope the case is solved for the victims and families, but for me personally, it is beyond resolution.

Richard

7/2/2018 07:06:00 am

I will be honest (and this isn't looking for sympathy or support), and I haven't woken up on the wrong side of bed, but I told Shawn a while back that there is only so much you can give to this case before the interest wears off. When you look at the contributors to the many forums over the years, many don't contribute anymore. They either burn out or have nothing new left to say. Everybody has a shelf life, before they fade away. The Zodiac Killer Site forum is an excellent forum and a good vehicle of discussion, as is Tom Voigt's message board, but if you look at the active topics nowadays, there is barely anything ever discussed on Lake Herman Road, Blue Rock Springs, Presidio Heights or Lake Berryessa- the four crimes- primarily because these topics have been discussed to death. The further you go along your Zodiac journey, the harder it becomes to find something fresh to unearth and the interest will inevitably wane. The same goes for me, and I hope the case breaks before I do. I would love to challenge Drew, Shawn or yourself (to begin with) to answer 10 questions pertaining to the Zodiac case. You all then comprehensively answer each question using a podcast or audio device and email me your recordings, and then I can post each podcast together in the form of an article with everybody's views.
I prefer to listen rather than write, and listening to views other than your own is far more interesting, and the best way of learning. I would like this, if anybody else would. With current podcasts, the same questions are often tackled over and over again- which is great for somebody new to the case, but with a different angles and tougher questions not usually tackled maybe something new could be achieved. I may post the questions soon, and if anybody is up for the challenge I will post their podcast.

Drew

7/2/2018 07:28:04 am

This Q&A approach is an interesting proposition Richard. I don't know what kind of insights I might have but technology allowing I would offer a contribution.

Drew

7/2/2018 07:59:38 am

I have a question for you Richard if you are in the mood for a jaunt down speculation lane. You have mentioned that if pressed you might entertain the notion that Zodiac's true victim count may be as high as nine. If Zodiac was responsible for more than the canonical five, which outlier crimes would you submit as the most likely additions?

Richard

7/2/2018 09:25:49 am

In order of most likely outlier crimes and current likelihood as of today
6] Donna Lass 40%
7] Hood/Garcia 20%
8] Cheri Jo Bates 15%
9] Saechao/Salee Murders 10%.
10] Robert Salem 2%
11] Domingos/Edwards 2%
12] Richard Radetich 0%

Non-murder Kathleen Johns 40%

Richard

7/2/2018 09:39:27 am

How about your percentages on the crimes?

Drew

7/2/2018 10:05:09 am

Very interesting numbers Richard. I think I may still be missing something with the Donna Lass and Radetich cases because I still see the likelihood of Lass as low and Radetich as high. I don't know if there is enough info out there to post a story about Radetich but I would be keen to learn more. I don't see any of the outliers as above 50% but my numbers are going to be a lot higher than yours but I think they have gotten gradually lower over the last year as facts become more apparent to me.

6] Donna Lass 20% (Pines card could have referred to someone else)
7] Hood/Garcia 40% (fits perfectly if Z continued killing)
8] Cheri Jo Bates 40% (can't ignore the killer's desire for press)
9] Saechao/Salee Murders 40% (Zodiac rejuvenated after Graysmith)
10] Robert Salem 30% (an escalation in spectacle after being ignored)
11] Domingos/Edwards 0% (I don't think Zodiac had a partner)
12] Richard Radetich 20% (an appropriate escalation if he kept killing)

Non-murder Kathleen Johns 40% (too crazy a story to fabricate)

Karen C

7/8/2018 05:18:34 pm

Hmmm, I find it amazing the way time erodes people's confidence in the facts of any case. The greater the time, the more distant it all seems. Memories fade, eye-witnesses and people with first-hand knowledge of the case pass away, stories become jumbled and re-told so many times that they become less factual and more corrupted and variable, and inevitably less believable. In time the entire case becomes like a fictional legend of what it once was.

Richard, I hear what you say! I personally would love it if future DNA testing proves, with very little margin for error, that ALA was the Zodiac. Personally, I have never felt confident that ALA was the Zodiac, but as I never met him personally and know very little about him, how could I possibly sit in judgement? We so often find with long-running cases all over the world and throughout history that the very first suspect ends up being the true culprit after all.

I realize that even the best DNA testing in the world will still not convince everybody. I recall when the Jack the Ripper case was finally solved using DNA, straight away the critics banded together and called foul on the methodology used to extract the DNA samples. I sometimes think people prefer their legends. They want things to go on and on forever and they want the Zodiac to be someone really clever and important. And so we inevitably encounter these larger-than-life suspects like Kjell Qvale. Many would never accept that a lowly school teacher, sacked for being a pedophile, who ended up living like a hermit out in the back woods and eating squirrels to survive could be the great, almighty, astrological genius they have come to "know". I see chronic cases of "personalization" all the time from very deluded people, many of whom model the Zodiac according to their own interests and life experiences. The legend will only grow with time, and the chasm between the reality of the crime and its resolution will only continue to grow wider and wider and wider as a result.

Karen C

7/15/2018 04:14:43 pm

The obvious question: Considering there appears to be a connection with Stanford through the Zodiac correspondence and the campus newspaper, why shouldn't Stephen Crawford logically be a Zodiac suspect?

Judith

7/2/2018 07:00:38 am

I do worry about the inability to obtain a decent DNA profile from the remaining evidence. It appears in California that the law enforcement agencies have not shared their respective zodiac evidence with each other or with the DOJ. I know from Napa Sheriffs that they did not obtain a decent profile from the lake Berryessa evidence for DNA. And where is San Francisco in the testing of DNA from their evidence currently?
So let's say they are able to obtain DNA profiles from the items that Vallejo recently sent for testing. There would probably be several profiles and each one will need to be cross-referenced and checked and researched. Zodiac did not leave definitive DNA at different sites like Golden State Killer did. It's simply not that clear cut. It will require a lot of detective work to nail this down. Having said that this is an election year here in California and that seems to give motivation for those running for office to put a nice feather in their cap just as it has occurred here in Sacramento County. In fact for Golden State killer it would appear they jumped some protocol by running his DNA in the family GED match website. The solving of the Golden State killer case is being used in advertisement for the district attorney race.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/2/2018 06:19:09 pm

I certainly see what you mean about the Golden State Killer case,and how it could be used for political advantage,Judith.

But I am seeing more and more,comments from news correspondents,about how that case might take years to achieve an actual conviction.

The legalities of the new methods of investigation,could turn the case into a poison chalice [?].

Something similar,in tracking Zodiac down,may be something that we don't actually desire.

As expressed previously,I think that a Zodiac profile was attained in 2002,at the latest,but the CA DOJ aren't going to go down the route of an ''elimination'' sideshow,again.

We will just hear who Zodiac ''was or wasn't'',when he is finally exposed.

Drew

7/2/2018 08:50:13 am

If anyone is up for it here is a multiple choice question for the group. Four scenarios may be worth considering when evaluating Zodiac's actual murder count. Which option sounds closest to the truth?

A) He killed 5, then realized all he needed to garner headlines was to send letters with bogus kill counts
B) Counts are bogus except for specified victims Bates, Johns, Salem, Radetich, Saechao&Salee
C) Additional crimes involve Santa Barbara beaches, Santa Rosa hitchhikers, Nightengale nurses
D) Counts are truthful, we’re just finding the easy ones + there are a hell of a lot more down there

Richard

7/2/2018 09:15:37 am

A- he killed five and rode the wave of publicity.

Richard

7/2/2018 09:32:34 am

Over the next two weeks I will post an article with 10 rarely asked questions. If you send me a podcast or audio recording I will definitely post your answers Drew. Just make sure the volume is set to a decent level for easy listening. The longer the replies the better. You can make the replies hours if you want.

Drew

7/2/2018 10:10:17 am

Sounds good!

Shawn

7/2/2018 02:02:25 pm

I've researched the case since 2011. I would like to research the case as long as possible till it is solved.

Sometimes it is fun and and sometimes frustrating.

The key IMO is to not let it consume you and live a diversified life
with other interests. We are not cops so we have the luxury of not having to face the case or cases everyday because that is our job.

Having said that....

Edison said "genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 perspiration" having tried so many different materials for a light bulb filament.

Devote maybe an hour or two to the case per day. Let your sub conscious do the rest of the work in the background as you enjoy other things in your daily life.

Do not be like Def Leppard .....Its better to burn out than fade ........

Shawn

7/2/2018 06:31:40 pm

A - I am pretty sure he killed the "canonical five"
B - The rest could be a misguided waste of research time

When I looked up "canonical five" with Google the first thing to come up is Jack the Ripper and his five victims.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/2/2018 09:22:18 am

Interesting options,Drew.I'll chip in,and then look forward to what others surmise.

I choose ''A''.But that wasn't the end of it.

Zodiac's wife left him in 1978,and his world fell apart again.

Beyond his core motive,rejection was his Achilles heel.

Zodiac killed 5 times,between 1978 and 1981.Then once again,in 2005.

Darlene Ferrin and two of the murders 1978-1981,were women known to him.Three in total.

I believe that Zodiac was responsible for Domingos/Edwards murders.

So,that's 2+5+5+1=13

Thirteen murders,in total.

Drew

7/2/2018 10:25:11 am

I would chose A as well, but it remains difficult to feel certain that such an egotistical mass murder quit as soon as he achieved his fame. Without knowing the specifics of the crimes Rubislaw mentions I can't comment but a narrative along those lines sounds reasonable. While I don't believe he stalked the canonical victims I don't discount the idea that he continued killing including people he knew.

As far as the kill counts he claimed he was either lying entirely or they add up but a middle ground seems unlikely. For example, as compelling as the Hood & Garcia case is for victims 9&10, if we can't find solid contenders for victims 6 through 8 the idea of a legit kill count must be abandoned in my opinion.

Could he have turned into another style of serial killer with a new persona? I think so but I don't think he would be content to pursue his murder hobby without the publicity element.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/2/2018 11:12:43 am

Some interesting and sound reasoning,Drew.

It seems that you are still toying with the logic of Zodiac's legacy [?].which is entirely understandable.

Zodiac ''by victim count'' is a tricky one.I just feel that we have to be cautious,as to what extent,that we buy into his persona,largely down to him putting pen to paper.

In a way,I am in the unusual position of introducing myself to the case,from the 1978-1981 period,having first examined murders from that period.....then uncovering the phenomenon,that was ''Zodiac''.

Most others examine the Bay Area period....then,understandably,don't see an awful lot,going on,beyond 1974.

I think that,just as his correspondences represented his persona,and not the real him....there is also a case for surmising that the media exposure was not representative,of his core and genuine motive.The media ''thing'' fell into his lap.

Only Lake Berryessa and Presidio projects,were partly playing up to this new found image.And,then the correspondences ''took over''.

The rest of his life,bar the odd correspondence,1978-1990,was always really about genuine motive,when in those ''dark'' periods,that would come to haunt him.

Zodiac,after all,was also a manic depressive.

Drew

7/2/2018 02:00:50 pm

I just read an interview with Robert Graysmith from 2007 where he says several things that may not be true. He states that Arthur Leigh Allen was at Lake Berryessa on the day of, an hour before the attack. Was it not the day before the attack that Allen said he was planning on going to Lake Berryessa and that he ended up going elsewhere? He suggests that his information is coming not from police interviews but from letters.

"I think the fact that Allen was at Lake Berryesssa the day of the stabbings (there were only about ten people that day including Zodiac) is compelling. He admitted to being there a hour before in letters and to his fellow workers at the Sonoma Auto Parts store. He was already a suspect in the other Zodiac crimes and to get himself up to that remote lake the same time as Zodiac has to be more than coincidence."
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/robert-graysmith-interview-with-the-washington-pos-t8132.html#p130880

Rubislaw 32 link

7/2/2018 04:46:47 pm

Always of interest to hear about those few,that were of real interest,to the investigating police,Drew.

Probably more from the police's perspective.What did they see in these individuals,that made them suspect that they might be the Zodiac [?].

I have read Graysmith's two Zodiac books,about four times each.Not wanting to miss anything out,more than anything else.I'll have to catch up on the interviews.

His books are good journalist's diaries,and I have to admit that I have never got the sense that he was so stuck on Allen.

Lyndon Lafferty mentioned Allen quite a lot,because they were at school together.Lafferty thought the idea of Allen being Zodiac,as laughable.But then,Lafferty thought Zodiac was definitely Grant [!].

I believe that there was a part of Allen's vanity that quite enjoyed the misplaced notoriety,at first....but when he realised that the police were actually serious about it....it started to get him down.

Jack Terrance is another example of someone who quite enjoyed the thought that others suspected him.

A bit warped [?].And,not funny,in the cold light of day.

One of my suspected victims,Drew,is Joan Webster.But my claim is to have uncovered evidence,that is completely different,from Gareth Penn's.

I have ''tried'' to read his book ''17'' a few times through,without success.I just can't understand how he came up with the idea,in the first place.He is certainly no mathematician....but a very gifted linguist.

But,strange how we have arrived at the same conclusion,on Ms.Webster,through completely different means [....I presume [!]...].

Rubislaw 32 link

7/4/2018 03:42:49 am

As certain Zodiac site contributors argue the merits or pitfalls,of obtaining a Zodiac DNA profile,from the back and front,of a single postage stamp,in focus,according to a T.V. news station,and a ''retired SFPD Inspector's source''.....till the cows come home......we might reflect that :

In 2002,a Zodiac DNA profile was used to eliminate William Grant,Arthur Leigh Allen,Don Cheney and Mr.X.

This elimination was signed for,by Bill Lockyer,Attorney General of the CA DOJ;Allen Benitez,Special Agent for the CA DOJ;Robert Mueller,Director of the FBI;Dwight Adams,Director of FBI Laboratory;Dan Olson of the FBI's Racketeering and Records Analysis Unit......and President George W Bush.

I note that Robert Mueller and Dan Olson are still working,on behalf of the public.

One Zodiac site contributor,has even started to refer to this elimination of suspects as '' The 2002 Scandal'' [!].

Naturally,those that go along with this ''2002 Scandal'',have most to lose,in perpetuating the myth surrounding the implication of ''suspects'' related to the Zodiac case.

Many of whom,were never actually official suspects,in the first place.

Richard

7/4/2018 04:56:51 am

Very true, if and when the new DNA results come in and we have a full profile from say the July letters, some people who have long held suspects they have believed in for years, will be reluctant to accept the results. The gears in the brain will click into place to explain away the results. The samples were contaminated, the letters weren't written by the killer or somebody else licked the stamps. It will be 2002 all over again. No amount of evidence- not even a video of the crime- would convince some people of the truth. There is no shame in admitting you've got it wrong.

Rubislaw 32 link

7/4/2018 07:02:10 am

Yes Richard,I have to admit that the expression ''The 2002 Scandal'' had kept me amused,most of yesterday evening and this morning.

Its always the most inane and ordinary expressions,that are the funniest.

In this ongoing and heated debate,I noted that ''Tahoe 27'' was the person that brought good sense and reason,to it.

That being,the inference that there must have been a host of DNA sources and series of Laboratory tests,before a Zodiac DNA profile was agreed upon,in 2002 [?].

Of perhaps ''mild amusement'' was,when a contributor to the debate,asked Mr.Voigt if,given that he bought into the ''2002 Scandal'',whether he would be reverting to his original belief,that Arthur Leigh Allen,was the Zodiac.

Mr.Voigt did not respond,to this question.

Tom

7/4/2018 04:46:32 pm

Mr. Voight has frequent loss of memory, and gets upset at those of his readers that remind him of that.

7/14/2018 04:53:10 pm

Mr. Voight

Have you ever felt like the authorities may be trying to steer the zodiologists in a certain direction. I mean, since you are a De facto leader. Have they ever seemed to push you towards a given suspect? I say this because the FBI really had it in for Gaikowski.

Mr Voight's Polar Opposite

7/14/2018 05:08:59 pm

The FBI had it in for Gaikowski? Surely you jest! The FBI saw the entire Blaine/Gaikowski thing for what it was, that being absolute rubbish, and it took them about 10 minutes to reach that conclusion! One cannot believe Gaikowski was the Zodiac without first believing Blaine. The two persons are inextricably linked by the author of the theory, and that tends to speak for itself.

7/15/2018 12:39:10 pm

So - process of elimination eh.
Well then why don't you finish the list of suspects and don't leave out why each one you check off should be trashed? Let us finally see who you dare to tell us is the best suspect. Put some guts into it. Impress us! I dare you! And, don't defend the status quo. That is for chickens. Lay it on the line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWj8Nz5DUg

7/6/2018 12:33:00 pm

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Citizens band radio (also known as CB radio) is, in many countries, a system of short-distance radio communications between individuals typically on a selection of 40 channels within the 27 MHz (11 m) band. Citizens band is distinct from other personal radio service allocations such as FRS, GMRS, MURS, UHF CB and the Amateur Radio Service ("ham" radio). In many countries, CB operation does not require a license, and (unlike amateur radio) it may be used for business or personal communications. Like many other two-way radio services, citizens band channels are shared by many users. Only one station may transmit at a time; other stations must listen and wait for the shared channel to be available...

CB allowed people to get to know one another in a quasi-anonymous manner.

Originally, there were 23 CB channels in the U.S.; the 40-channel band plan was implemented in 1977. Additionally, there were two more channels between 22 & 23, commonly referred to as 22A & 22B. Several people had 22A, but not many had 22B. In the early 1970s Radio Shack sold a "base station" CB radio that contained a crystal for each of the 23 channels, two extra slots existed, and you could order the 22A & 22B crystals for an easy plug-in. Channel 9 was officially reserved for emergency use by the FCC in 1969. Channel 10 was originally often used for highway travel communications east of the Mississippi River, and channel 19 west of the Mississippi; channel 19 then became the preferred highway channel in most areas, as it did not have adjacent-channel interference problems with channel 9. Many CBers called channel 19 "the trucker's channel". Channel 11 was originally restricted by the FCC for use as the calling channel.

The original FCC output power limitation for CB radios was "5 watts DC input to the final amplifier stage", which was a reference to the earlier radios equipped with tubes. With solid state radios becoming more common in the 1970s, this specification was rewritten by the FCC at the same time the authorized channels were increased to 40. The current specification is simply "4 watts output (AM) or 12 watts output (SSB)" as measured at the antenna connector on the back of the radio. The old specification was often used in false advertising by some manufacturers who would claim their CB radios had "5 watts" long after the specification had changed to 4 watts output. The older 23-channel radios built under the old specifications typically had an output of around 3.5 to 3.8 watts output when measured at the antenna connector. The FCC simply rounded up the old "5 watts DC input to the final amplifier stage" specification to the new "4 watts output as measured at the antenna connector on the back of the radio", resulting in a far simpler and easier specification.

Initially, the FCC intended for CB to be the "poor man's business-band radio", and CB regulations were structured similarly to those regulating the business band radio service. Until 1975, only channels 9-14 and 23 could be used for "interstation" calls (to other licensees). Channels 1-8 and 15-22 were reserved for "intrastation" communications (among units with the same license). After the inter-station/intra-station rule was dropped, channel 11 was reserved as a calling frequency (for the purpose of establishing communications); however, this was withdrawn in 1977. During this early period, many CB radios had "inter-station" channels colored on their dials, while the other channels were clear or normally colored (except channel 9, which was usually colored red). It was common for a town to adopt an inter-station channel as its "home" channel. This helped prevent overcrowding on Channel 11, enabling a CBer to monitor a town's home channel to contact another CBer from that town instead of a making a general call on Channel 11.

Boating and the U.S. Coast Guard
Since CB was coming down in price and VHF Marine Band was still expensive, many boaters put CB radios on their boats. Business caught on to this market, and introduced marine CBs containing a weather band (WX). There was a lot of controversy about whether or not the Coast Guard should monitor CB radio, but they did, using Motorola base stations installed at their search and rescue stations. The Coast Guard stopped this practice in the late 1980s and recommends VHF Marine Band radios for boaters.

21st-century use
CB has lost much of its original appeal due to development of mobile phones, the internet and the Family Radio Service. Changing radio propagation for long-distance communications due to the 11-year sunspot cycle is a factor at these frequencies. In addition, CB may have become a victim of its own popularity; with millions of users on a finite number of frequencies during the mid-to-late 1970s and early 1980s, channels often were noisy and communication difficult. This caused a waning of interest among hobbyists. Business users (such as tow-truck operators, plumbers

7/6/2018 01:03:25 pm

Rick Marshall, Troy Houghton, Jack Terrance, are just a few of the suspects that used these radios.
Cops use radios and also truckers.
This sign sure looks familiar > VHF <

Rubislaw 32 link

7/6/2018 01:53:27 pm

Some interesting information,BB.

It is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility,that Zodiac had embraced some of the ''DIY'' communication technology,of the day.

I tend to feel that it was more a case of him aspiring to the idea of it,than anything more.

In the late 70's,I used the Motorola base station system,as a materials co-ordinator,co-ordinating materials between crane operators and supply vessels,in the North Sea Oil Industry.

My feelings are that Zodiac was involved in similar work,but more on the construction side of that business.....so.he may well have used similar methods of communication,in his work.

This was the time of ''The Yorkshire Ripper'',and many of us believed that ''Sutcliffe'' was a North Sea Oil worker,working a ''two week on,two week off'' shift.

It was also the time of ''The Templeton Woods Murders''.

Strangely,these two victims might also come into play,with the case of the Zodiac Killer.

''Mere speculation'',naturally.

7/6/2018 03:19:43 pm

WOW!
Lots of killers associated with the Zodiac.
SOS Berkawitz claimed to be only one of a group of killers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JepFcuZVuo

See and hear this too.
a whole cult of serial killers singing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wz5qHjTaFY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANI03qFQFvI

Rubislaw 32 link

7/6/2018 05:30:42 pm

Yes,now and again,I watch serial killers being interviewed.

Perhaps looking for clues [?].Psychopathy can seem so foreign.

I was watching Richard Ramirez and Ed Kemper,this evening.

They just seem so ''matter of fact'' about what they did.

What is so often a mystery,in particular is,the amount of female fans that they appear to acquire.

These women offer these monsters everything,from money to marriage.

Karen C

7/6/2018 05:43:21 pm

Certainly is a mystery Rubislaw! Many young females seem attracted to the "rough around the edges" criminal types with psychotic brains. Such types tend to attract numerous young and beautiful females like moths to the flame. Often such types end up taking all their money and leaving them destitute, or in worst case scenarios, the hapless women end up being abused physically and mentally or are murdered by the man they had once found so admirable. I am frequently astounded by the number of con artist stories that appear on TV. The guy will be some total slob, but somehow he has managed to attract over a dozen women across the country, and he will have somehow fleeced them all of their savings.

7/13/2018 05:37:06 pm

It is too bad that after the murders of John Franklin Hood (24) and Sandra Garcia (20) on February 21st 1970 the Zodiac did not hide the murder weapon in the sand directly under them. Oh! Wait a minute... He Did!

Karen C

7/13/2018 05:48:45 pm

So you were a cop back then and owned your own DNA test kit?

7/14/2018 08:24:19 am

They could find out a lot more than you think just by giving that knife a complete examination. They could take it apart and test for blood inside. Also, make, model and year will reveal info. Was it sold at only a few locations etc. etc. etc.

Karen C

7/16/2018 06:32:41 pm

Well yes, BB. That goes without saying. These items of interest should have been tested long ago, but many were not. Many were not stored properly either for such a future event, so are potentially contaminated. Testing of material evidence for the Zodiac's DNA may, for instance, reveal that the Zodiac was a stray alley cat that sometimes popped into the sheriff's office for a drink of milk and a pat.

8/5/2018 01:38:37 pm

Rick Marshall, Jack Tarrance, and Don Cheney were all born in 1928 Texas.

The fiddle and fart around phrase was common to that area in the 1940's.

Does anyone know if they spoke to each other on their HAM radios?

Does anyone know their handles?

Sigmund

7/6/2018 05:33:28 pm

This is funny. The Lake Berryessa deed was committed by a Zodiac copycat? Now I have heard everything.

Maybe the Lake Berryessa incident was committed by... oh, I dunno, how about Big Foot? LOL!

8/1/2018 05:16:47 pm

If Zodiac was not a copycat of the TT (Texarkana, Texas Phantom killer) then I guess he just accidentally recreated the M.O. to a "T".

Alex Lewis

8/1/2018 09:57:14 pm

"This is funny. The Lake Berryessa deed was committed by a Zodiac copycat? Now I have heard everything."

No you havn't Siggy, Not at all!

Indeed, the truth is simply ..
The Original Night Stalker 'Dan 'D.B' Cooper' is The Zodiac

So your attempting to push the blame onto Harry of Harry & the Henderson's fame is a deplorable thing to do!!!

Sigmund

8/1/2018 10:13:03 pm

So the Original Night Stalker was not GSK, he was in fact D.B. Cooper! Oh wow, golly gosh! No wait a minute he was the Texarkana Killer. Oh wow, golly gosh! No wait a minute. DB Cooper was in fact the Zodiac!!! Oh wow, golly gosh!

7/10/2018 11:47:05 am

Zodiac Minuteman Inflatable Boat clients include:-
Fire, Police, First Responders, Search & Rescue, professional users.

http://shockmitigationdirectory.com/inner-category/14/7/11/

Zodiac watches were the rage for scuba divers in the 1960's

Navy guys are keen on these zodiac boats.

I wonder if one was seen at Lake Berryessa?

Karen C

7/10/2018 04:31:20 pm

Certainly a tantalizing possibility BB. Zodiac boats were also used frequently by members of the Coast Guard.

7/11/2018 08:41:45 am

cab drivers use cb radios

Sadie

7/12/2018 07:46:09 pm

The thought of Z having extensive knowledge of anatomy is interesting and note worthy. When most people analyze the desk top poem, they usually mention something about the poem being dark or suicidal. However if you look at it from a surgeons prospective it actually fits quite nicely. Is it possible that Z was in the medical field? And no, I am not referring to Hodel as I don’t believe he was the zodiac but the I would be interested to know if anyone has looked at any other surgeons as suspects?

Karen C

7/12/2018 08:54:44 pm

I believe there was an ambulance officer who was at one time considered a suspect. I cannot recall his name.

Sadie, you have touched on what I consider to be a constant problem area with the Zodiac case.

Did Z try to kill Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell outright, but failed? Or did he set out to orchestrate a slower, "fortuitously-timed" death for his victims?

Human beings are to some extent resilient. It is amazing for instance when people recover after being seriously injured in car accidents. Young, healthy, fit people tend to be much more resilient than elderly and infirm people.
Z did cause injuries that ultimately killed Cecelia, but she survived for a considerable amount of time after the attack. Bryan luckily survived, but he too had been seriously injured.

Both victims lived long enough to give reasonable reports of their attacker to the authorities. Therein lies the great dilemma.

If both had been killed outright by Z, nobody would have lived to describe the elaborate costume, which Z had clearly spent a lot of time to construct. The costume suggests that he desired attention and notoriety and he wished to instill fear, first in his victims and ultimately to the world. There is a strong sense of "shock value" relating to that costume as it was to appear in Graysmith's illustration.

None of these things would have materialized for Z if both of his victims had passed away almost immediately. Also, Z had a habit of ringing the authorities about his crimes shortly after committing them. Was he always hopeful that at least one of his victims might live long enough to provide a description of the attack to authorities? He obviously had a huge ego and was relying to some extent on the police and the press to appease his hunger for attention, while also remaining anonymous. He wanted his crimes to be remembered!

Yes, I agree, the idea of Z being a surgeon is plausible. But I do wonder, who else would have sufficient knowledge of human anatomy? Ambulance personnel perhaps? Marines? As a part of their training, Marines are generally taught how to kill enemies outright, not to merely disable them - unless of course a confession is required! I am blissfully unaware if any Marines are ever taught how to torture their enemies, which, could involve methods that guarantee a lingering, protracted death. Perhaps someone more qualified could comment?

7/16/2018 01:59:38 pm

https://mindcontrolblackassassins.com/2018/07/03/stanford-university-stephen-blake-crawford-arlis-perry-the-stanford-university-cia-mithras-serial-sacrificant-strangler/

Karen C

7/16/2018 06:28:37 pm

So the CIA are all closet Satanists?

7/20/2018 05:12:01 pm

Sadie - ALA was a biologist.

Karen C

7/16/2018 06:44:39 pm

Crawford is interesting. He arranged Arlis Perry's body as if ritualistically. But this may not imply that he was a Satanist. For all we know, Crawford was simply fabricating the scene to make it appear that some kind of Satanic ritual had taken place, just to throw detectives off the scent. Killers can be intelligent when it comes to covering their tracks. The Zodiac for instance may have woven a whole bunch of obscure ideas and symbolism from different popular religions together for that very purpose - to throw detectives off his trail. Even if ALA was the Zodiac, he had about as much religious sense as a barn door. As for ALA being a Satanist, I do not believe he would have bothered with such things. He would have been more interested in hunting critters in the woods and looking at extreme and illegal pornography.

I am not suggesting that Crawford was the Zodiac, but any sort of ritualistic killing is suggestive of a serial killer. This person is almost certainly of interest to authorities in relation to the string of unsolved murders that took place on and around Stanford campus in that same time period.

7/17/2018 01:49:22 pm

I have studied The CIA for thirty plus years. This is what drew me to the Zodiac. The term is a CIA cryptonym for a person they are watching who is a member of the Soviet Union traveling within North America. Oswald was considered a ZODIAC, because he went to live in Russia for a while. The CIA does not work like you think. Satanism is just one of their many crazy programs. It is not real religion - it is cover. The CIA has moles in every police station, and in every place of any significance. They use cutouts(agents who hand off to yet another agent material on a need to know basis) to the 6th degree of separation for every one of their projects(kills and con jobs) to keep you from ever finding out their participation. In any given neighborhood they have a safe-house. This is where an agent/murder for hire/perp can get in from prying eyes, like on Jackson street the killer of Stine was likely able to duck into the safe-house.

The CIA is the darkness that runs the world. They killed JFK because he found out how diabolical they are and tried to shut them down. They are the shadow government in control of the world. They are counting on you to not read for yourself and to capitulate to the safety of the status quo. Why not believe them. It makes things so much easier to just go along and get along. After all they hold every position of power. They even hold complete control of the media thru operation MOCKINGBIRD. I can not blame you for defending them though. You'd have to be willing to take on the title of conspiracy nut and risk being flagged a subversive and possibly get detained indefinitely. If you were to dare to speak truth to power.

And, they can now do this legally because the CIA took away all our rights through the passage of the Patriot Act. And, Saddam did not have yellow cake. the pretext for war. All that was falsified by the CIA for their war. They are pervasive and - the Patriot Act allows them to have anyone renditioned (taken to another country, out of jurisdiction and get tortured) at any time for no reason at all. Their specialty is sabotage of voting booths world wide. Although when they don't get their corrupt guy in to be their puppet then they turn to assassination.
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php

Karen C

7/17/2018 03:57:00 pm

Ummm, Houston, we have a problem!

Sigmund

7/17/2018 04:05:42 pm

Correction: You have studied the extremely biassed and narrow OPINIONS of what the CIA means to your peers, who are all fellow conspiracy theorists.

Much of your information you supply is based on second, third, and fourth hand opinion, having been many times replicated, rehashed and regurgitated by the online conspiracy brigade.

You have NOT studied the CIA as it exists in reality. Sure, the CIA has done a lot of underhanded things and have many times been caught out and exposed for their meddling and interference in world affairs. But your views have taken this to a whole other level, which is more into the realm of sheer fantasy and pulp fiction. It is head in the clouds thinking, and intellectually, is also rather lazy thinking.

Your views are a complete corruption and manipulation of the truth about the CIA. Your links are very telling in this regard. You often point people to some extremely dodgy websites, designed by people who all appear to belong to the same bunch of tin foil hatters.

Nearly everything that you write above can be summed up in one word: rubbish.

I have known people who worked for a national intelligence agency. They would laugh at every single thing you have written above.

Saddam did not have yellow cake, so that was a pretext for war? What a load of nonsense! You are kidding nobody but yourself with this kind of bizarre backwards reasoning.

Karen C

7/17/2018 04:25:27 pm

LOL @ Sigmund!

The thing I find both funny and interesting, is this.

If the case of the Zodiac killer was nothing more than an extremely elaborate conspiracy that was orchestrated entirely by the CIA and their brainwashed stooges, then why bother with this blog?

Why bother discussing the case any further?

Why bother with any kind of investigation?

If the CIA did it, well this kind of suggests that we must consider it "case closed".

After all if it was all the doings of the CIA, there is not much that any one of us can do about it.

Blaming the CIA on a blog page is hardly going to result in anyone being brought to justice, is it? We are wasting our time if it was the CIA who were responsible. The men who write on these kinds of forums can all go fishing and the women can all go shopping instead. Loved ones can mourn the victims and blame it all on the evil, nasty, covertly Satanic cult called the CIA!!! Like those cardboard cut-out South Park characters, they can all throw their fists into the air in outrage and yell "You bast@rds!"

But nobody is going to listen to them, because, after all, it WAS the CIA. Oh well, if it was the CIA then what can we mere mortals do about it except rant and rave and speculate about it ad nauseum on obscure websites with other people who share this view?

This whole "CIA did everything" sounds like a bizarre form of intellectual "cop out" to me, because you don't have to think any further or harder about it than that singular grain of thought.

Sigmund

7/17/2018 04:37:28 pm

Precisely! If the CIA did it, then what is the point discussing it or investigating it any further?

If every murder committed by a serial killer around the world can be put down to the CIA, that would make very light work for the police and detectives.

Smart: "Looks like the work of another serial killer Chief!"

Chief: "So the CIA are up to their old tricks again, are they? Oh well, case closed. Let's go have a beer and later tonight we will write about it online to impress our friends."

Smart: "I'm with you Chief!"

Karen C

7/17/2018 04:41:52 pm

LOL!

7/18/2018 09:43:23 am

status quo

Sigmund

8/1/2018 10:14:58 pm

Great band!

Comments are closed.

THE MYTH OF THE BERRYESSA COPYCAT

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