THE MURDER AT WASHINGTON AND MAPLE

3/22/2016

#1. Robert Graysmith on the Presidio Heights shooting "The front passenger side of the cab opened, and eventually the heavyset man got out. He came around the cab, taking with him some sort of rag or towel, and began wiping down the driver's side door, the handle, around the outside mirror and the left passenger side. At one point he opened the driver's side door and leaned forward to wipe off the area of the dashboard again. To steady himself, he leaned his right hand on the rail separating the front and rear windows. Then he closed the door and walked away."

#2.The teenagers who viewed the crime across the street "The suspect then appeared to be wiping on the interior of the cab, leaning over the victim to the driver's compartment. The suspect then exited the cab by the passenger side front door, also wiping with a white rag, possibly a handkerchief. The suspect then walked around the cab to the driver's side and proceeded to wipe the exterior of the left door area. The suspect then fled north on Cherry Street."

#3. The teenagers interviewed at a later date "At this time, Lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Zodiac pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stine had fallen over onto the seat and Zodiac pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. When he was finished, Zodiac calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked north." Extract from this thread http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=402

One thing universal to all three accounts, portray a killer wiping down the area of the driver side compartment.
We have a killer that supposedly murdered Paul Stine at Washington and Cherry from the rear of the taxicab, exited the right rear passenger door, entered the right front passenger door, removed a section of Paul Stine's shirt and left the scene. With this scenario there is absolutely no need for the killer to wipe down the driver side compartment, he would never have come into contact with it. The same applies to a front seat shooting.

Had the murder unfolded as our minds perceive it, then clearly the actions of the killer make little sense. If we use simple supposition, we could conclude the Zodiac wiped the driver area to remove fingerprints, therefore at some time in the night's proceedings he was located in close proximity to the driver side seat and compartment area. The interior view of a Ford Galaxie 500 taxicab shows there is little of significance on the driver side to have been searched from the Zodiac perspective. If he was removing fingerprints, then he had either leaned on the dashboard, touched the shift, or handled the steering wheel at some point in the course of events. But again, he should have been nowhere near this area from the standpoint of a Washington and Cherry murder.

The Zodiac Killer exited the taxicab and headed north on Cherry Street and east on Jackson Street, in what appears an unnecessary route, placing himself at greater risk for two minutes as he traversed Jackson Street parallel to the crime scene.
tt was to prove a near costly mistake, as two responding police officers crossed his path en route. The Zodiac Killer's obvious exit plan would have been to travel directly north, away from the crime scene to a waiting vehicle, or into the park. The Zodiac claimed in his October 13th 1969 letter mailed two days after the murder: "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington Street and Maple Street last night." Had this been the case, then his actions of traveling east on Jackson Street makes sense to his original true intentions of traveling north on Maple Street after murdering the taxicab driver at this location. He would have been heading toward the region of the Jackson and Maple intersection in both instances. However, circumstances forced a change of plan, which may have necessitated the Zodiac Killer commandeering the vehicle and traveling one block further, resulting in the subsequent unscheduled journey along Jackson Street, to his original destination.

The Zodiac Killer may well have attempted to lean over the lifeless body of Paul Stine to wipe the driver side area, however, this may not have been his easiest route of access, so rounded the taxicab and entered the driver side door to complete his task of removing fingerprints - supporting himself by placing his right hand on the intersecting panel between front and rear doors, and inadvertently depositing the bloody fingerprints observed by responding personnel.

The claim of the teenage witnesses that the Zodiac Killer opened the driver side door is supported by the location of these fingerprints, deposited onto the dividing panel by the right hand of the killer, using his right hand as a supporting mechanism.

The absence of a heard gunshot is often touted as a reason the shooting may have occurred one block earlier at Washington and Maple, although no audible gunshot was described at this location either. The close contact wound to Paul Stine may have suppressed the propellant gases of the firearm, subduing the audible sound levels, or the killer may have attached a suppressor to the gun itself. It can be shown that even guns with suppressors attached can still give a high decibel reading.
The log entry of Washington and Maple, the Zodiac's claim of a murder 'over by Washington and Maple', and the taxicab parked askew to the sidewalk, begs the question of who was in control of the taxicab as it approached the Washington and Cherry intersection on the night of October 11th 1969.

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 05:22:55 am

Well I think Rich, when you couple in the fact that as you say, there would be no need for Him to wipe anything on or near the driver side compartment if He been a backseat passenger and shot Paul from that position at W&C Streets, with the fact that neither the teen witnesses nor anyone else heard a shot fired at that location, all leans, at least circumstantially anyway, toward A Zodiac up front.

The witnesses never saw The Man get out exiting on the driver side, so I don't think He physically say there to drive the cab but rather, in all probability, He shot Paul at W&M streets from the passenger front seat and Paul's body went into the 'Death Grip' immediately, a known and proven scientific spontaneous instant tensing of the body's muscles that is directly related and seen specifically in victims who's death came about by being shot in the head.
Even if the cab was stationary but not in park, He would likely have this muscle spasm causing His foot that is resting on the accelerator to slam down on it, thus propelling the Cab violently forward over the Maple Intersection toward Cherry Street.
In this scenario, albeit hypothetical, the Zodiac is going to be required to control the cab or it's likely going to career straight into another vehicle, tree or whatever the first irresistible force happens to be that this immovable object meets. And so, likely from still seated in the passenger seat, grabs the steering wheel to steer the cab as He uses other arm to push Paul's foot off the accelerator. At some point He has one hand on the wheel, the other on the cab dash area to steady Himself thus now requiring, and adequately explaining, His actions of wiping down these ares of the cabs interior.

As for His wiping the drivers door on it's exterior, including the door handle itself, well again this is just throwing a theory out there but, let's go absolutely nuts a second and believe the unbelievable of "If he's wiping the driver exterior door handle, then He likely touched it at some time earlier that night!" I know, simply ludicrous isn't it (I think I have frontal lobe damage rather like Mr Kane because I am 'Losing the ability to control self gratification by issuing sarcastic Humor :-) )

However, realistically of course, Logic would dictate that if He wiped the driver door handle, He did so for a reason, that reason logic again demands, would be due to His having touched it and He's now wiping away any potential Latent prints left there.

So, why would He open the driver door? I mean He isn't the driver after all when He secures the ride from point A to Point B. My only realistic theory I can come up with is in tune with the Harvey Hines report that Zodiac did not happen to be in the right place at the right time to secure a cab and a driver who happens to heading that way anyway for His next dispatched pick up but rather, Paul is there because Zodiac has ordered His victim via Telephone.
When you look, even today, at photo's of The Westin St. Francis Hotel taken of the building, you'll not that along the road running parallel to it will be parked several yellow cabs at any one time.

If Zodiac, after that nightmare at Lake Berryessa two weeks previously that saw Him pacing all around the shores and Banks searching for Victims to present themselves in a suitable place for an hour at least, decides this time He will not bother looking and getting Frustrated at nobody being nice enough to place themselves in His crosshair as suitable to become victims (How dare they!) then this time, well this time He'll simply going to get inventive.

You and I Rich, we may if we desire, ring the local Chinese and order a meal to be delivered to us, or even decide to do the weekly shop via Tesco.com Online which they'll then deliver. Zodiac decides to use this kind of take out service not for a kebab, but for a 'Victom.' He may hat 555 - 300- Victim-Please, Now! and phoned ordering to be collected from outside the Westin and giving a false name that we'll say is 'Mr Philips.' This dial-a-victim kind of sinister method of securing a victim instantly in order to get your victim to drive themselves to their own deaths, a place of the Z's choosing, the Hines report suggests Toschi had declared was exactly how Zodiac and Paul encountered each other, not as it is commonly believed, by fate and Bad Luck and Paul was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. No, Paul was exactly where He should be, where He was ordered to go. His passenger, Zodiac, see's a yellow cab sitting there and walks up, opens driver door and asks Paul: "Philips?" This act of opening the door briefly may be where He touched the handle. Of course it could just be that He opened Paul's door at the W&C intersection and that's why He wipes it down :-)

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 08:05:07 am

Well you yourself Rich know that I have long held to the theory of Zodiac only walking away from the cab upon hearing Armond activate His siren and if, as Lindsey said was the case, the Zodiac has not even yet made it as far as nor onto Jackson Street when Frank and Armond pull up on scene but is still walking away down Cherry then for me, this theory now holds even more weight.

Another thing Rich is that Lindsey stated that because He though the man only had a knife on Him, He had exited the house, gone across the street and stood at the corner of Cherry st and was watching Zodiac who, He said, was still walking in a casual fashion along Cherry St when Frank and Armond arrive. Now using Armond Pelissetti's own words it's extremely difficult, close to impossible, for me to believe He did not see the Zodiac because Lindsey stated He pointed down Cherry & told Armond He, the person responsible, is right there down the street. So, Armond Himself states:

"We, fortunately, were very close (when the radio alert came), and responded to that corner and we were able to do so on red lights and Siren at 9:55 at night and got there very quickly."

Ok so so far, what Lindsey said, at least in theory if not a provable fact, the Zodiac could have and even likely would have still be on Cherry st when the first cops arrive because Armond suggests it was very fortunate they just happened to be close to that intersection anyway and sped to it as soon as they got the radio alert. Now, lets look at Armond's words to analyze how likely or unlikely it is that He can miss seeing the suspect as He arrives if we accept the suspect is, as is suggested, still traversing Cherry st as He arrives. Armond, quote:

"I Parked the car in the middle of the intersection facing the yellow cab that was sitting a little bit back from the corner of Cherry st on Washington, facing West on Washington."

So, don't know how you can interpret this in any other way other than He alluding to having parked right in the middle of the 4 way intersection which allows a view North, South, East and West. Now Lindsey at this moment states He Himself was stood at the Intersection at the corner Cherry street watching the man who had just done this walking away casually down Cherry. Makes sense again logically then for Armond to stop right where He said He did because He, in all probability, saw Lindsey standing there. Now here's where the stories differ between cop and witness which we'll examine below:

First, the Cops version. Armond says upon stopping He noticed 3 children heading for the cab and gets out and escorts them back to the home they just came from suggesting, "I didn't know if the suspect was still there." He says that at this point He was told the suspect was a WMA rather than BMA and dashes to His car radio to issue an update. Then, after that, claims He now goes over to check the cab and it's driver and could see Mr Paul Stine, laying across the seating area with his eye static open and He was "99.9% sure He was dead." That is Armond's account as to the sequence of actions undertaken by Him upon arrival at the scene. Now we shall examine The Witnesss Lindsey's recollection of what happened as the first cop car arrives:

Lindsey says He is already standing at the corner observing the WMA that just did this as He walks away when the cop car arrives with two police officers occupying it. Witness Lindsey observes both Cops immediately exit the police car, and one went directly to the Yellow Cab (Frank Peda) and the other walked directly over to Himself and asked Him Why He's there and what's going on etc. Lindsey then answers this cops question by declaring He's there because He's watching the person who just did this to see where He goes and points to the person He is alluding to down there on Cherry street. Now at this point it gets very strange and weird for me because, apparently, Armond the police Officer does not understand what this person is trying to convey to Him. Lindsey isn't 5 or 6, He's a 16 year old young man. So Lindsey declares He told Armond several time with pointing gesture down Cherry to help backward Armond understand....."Him, that man there walking!! He is the one who just did this!" Armond, No understand! Grunt's at the boy, "Ehhh?" Finally, when Armond remembers He can speak & understand English and A gesture of finger pointing down Cherry st, too late, naughty man gone! Zodiac wasn't sprinting desperately homed in on Cherry St Presidio Entrance either, no no, He is taking His time, casually walking down Cherry before turning onto Jackson st. Armond claims He then, after it clicked what Lindsey was telling him, first decided to go over to the cab to check Paul for sign of life which His Partner Frank has already done and is Himself still at the cab.

Now if it is to be suggested that despite stopping in a place that allows a clear view down Cherry, and a witness telling Him "Officer, that man there walking

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 08:13:04 am

Continued ..

... away....yes Him, that's the one that just did this" that due to a momentary episode of completely non believable nonsense where He just stands there, maybe even calling on Peda alking Frank "Hey Frank, I don't speak 'Child' so could you come here and tell me what this thing, I mean person, is saying? It's something about Him and down there, it's, I mean He's, pointing aswel. No idea what it's saying so come over please Frank that you may act as Interpreter between Child and Me.

I mean if people decide to allow themselves to have intelligence insulted by believing an absolute illogical load of nonsense simply because the nonsense come from a person with police man's hat on that's up to them, but for me, Armond was able to understand just fine what Lindsey was telling Him, identifying that man down Cherry walking away as the same man who just exitied the cab before waking off down that street and again there is an FBI report that leave no doubt that someone, A "Witness in the murder of Cab Driver' to be precise, did Identify someone who's name remains a mystery as the man who had just shot and killed Paul. However, this name is not available to us because the nice people up the top of the society pyramid had said so. Apparently it's a name that is known to certain people on a 'Need to know' basis, and it turns out I don't have a need to know the name and that has been decided for me by someone else. If I wanted a good laugh I could ask them why I don't need to know and how someone gets to decide what I want and can have? I will be informed that this is how it is you see, and the reason for this Mr Welsh Chappie is rather simple: 'Because weeeee have said so!"

Laura

1/22/2018 04:11:15 pm

I can see how the police officer might have trouble understanding. Lindsay may have thought he was talking sensibly but he would have been in an excited state. Have you ever heard 911 calls? People don’t talk in sentences. They raise their voices, theur phrases are jumbled; they are not always coherent in what they’re saying, especially when the other party has no facts and the speaker is making jumps. I thought your assessment was great until you went into the unecessary long-winded attack on the officer.

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 09:20:16 am

This FOIA mate is another smaller example of this whole of power structure and with a pyramid of importance. The best analogy to use is the classic film, The Wizard Of Oz.

If you want to something Richard, there's A Yellow Brick Road, use that to and ask the Wizard if you can have something. The wizard is a encased within a smoke and is giant transparent talking head. He is Real Richard, people believe in Him and you must believe too, and we will that He exists by showing Him in some great spectacular illusion smoke screen. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain Richard, the Wizard is talking to you!!

That the power, that's the idea An Elite or one person more important than any other it's the Wizard and it most certainly cannot be pointed out to them that are in that position of superiority & importance because they have bought into the illusion and really believe that are The Great & Powerful.....Wizard of Oz!

It's just all bull shit! If an alien came and landed my front living room tomorrow and asked to explain the concept and the definition of Democracy and A Democratic Government and I Explained it full and then told My new Inter-Galactic friend I am now going to file a FOIA in order to know something the my new would no doubt be wonder why there is even such thing as A FIOA Act and why anybody need to ask permission to know something that other people do in Government. He be fuckin baffled!

Welsh Chappie Alex

3/22/2016 09:57:59 am

Rich, this here may be one of the last posts as a regular daily posting contributor to this really top quality site you've created here mate and my reason Rich i'm sure in my own mind now that this case is not remaining unsolved because we there a missing piece or because of circumstance. To my way of thinking Rich, it's not accidental but deliberate.

To you, I know you don't think or believe they (them nice people who are in the power place who always tell the truth) are covering up; the fact they already know the answer as to who Zodiac or Zodiac's are and mate, I wish I could say I believe that too because it's no fun Rich when it's wilful effort and deliberate to not let the public know what one or two at the top know, well it just forces you to admit defeat because Rich if they don't want you I knowing something, we will never know it.

Rich I have no doubt mate that to believe this to be true is going to be given label and terms attached to it by others, but I will accept that with ironic sarcasm of "Yes how stupid is such a belief.....your right, I should come over there to join you in the safe majority where I too can be expected to believe such absolute nonsense such that to even ask me to consider accepting as a truth is just utterly insulting.

That's right, yes, Armond cannot understand witness, which results with His not seeing Zodiac who the witness points out, is right in front of Him on the street!
We must all rejoice that Mr Fouke can recall the colour of a mans shoes and his elasticated jacket cuffs going a tad grey on top from driving past him and glancing at Him for 5 seconds, and Mr Welsh Chap shuts back/...

"WHAT! LIKE FOUKE COULD YOU RECALL ALL THE DETAIL YOU DO FROM GLANCING AT SOMEONE FOR A FEW SECONDS! THAT'S INSULTING, NOW FOUKE OFF! "

Welsh Chappie Alex

3/22/2016 10:19:10 am

Maybe I should not question such things as "If witness ID'd someone as Paul's murderer, where's the arrest and questioning of this man as would be standard.

Maybe I can also swallow the idea that two individual and totally separate encounters take place by two different police officers with WMA on the street where a homicide has just taken place and neither of these cops got the mans details because they didn't ask Him for them.
I could also, just to be in the safe accepted majority maybe believe that yes, Don didn't remember that man and having encountering Him until Zodiac reminded Him with a PS.... it's all cominbg back to Fouke now Zodiac said it in a letter. Now don shall recall this encounter with that man who ran away down ,Maple Street up the front concrete house steps to a Home owned by 'The Contradiction' Family.
I can keep going if you'd like another 10 similar examples.

"Who among us would believe something to be true because it may comfort us to do so or make us feel better? This is not rationality. This is wishful thinking." Christopher Hitchens.

Richard

3/22/2016 10:10:47 am

That is a good point Alex. If Lindsey is watching the suspect head up Cherry as Armond pulls up at the intersection and parks in the middle, then clearly as he meets Lindsey, he would logically say that he could see the suspect at that point. It's all about timing.
It says " He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Z continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Pelissetti, approached Lindsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Pelissetti asking questions, Lindsey was trying to explain that the suspect was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Pelissetti got the point, they both looked and the Z was gone."

It depends on how far Zodiac was along Cherry, was it right to the corner, by Jackson as stated above. It then follows with 'then the cop car pulled up'. But by the time Pelissetti gets to Lindsey, Zodiac could have already rounded the corner, even if he had looked straight away. That we will never know. But if Pelissetti finally got the message the Zodiac was traveling on the east sidewalk, as Lindsey told him, he must have logically thought that Zodiac may well have turned from the east side of Cherry, to the south side of Jackson and why didn't Pelissetti get immediately on the radio with not just the corrected description, but the direction Zodiac was likely heading ie; east on Jackson Street, so somebody could have cut him off. Equally why didn't he get in his car and head down Washington St, up Maple and lie in wait to ambush Zodiac, rather than head after Zodiac up Cherry and risk being ambushed himself. Zodiac was never going to hide behind a car 20 feet up Cherry. All the exit routes could have been sealed knowing Zodiac was heading east on Jackson. Pelissetti insinuated in the 2007 documentary that heading up Jackson in an easterly direction was just a calculated guess, but it was fairly logical, because if Zodiac had headed west towards Arguello, he would have likely headed up Cherry on the west side. It takes 2 minutes to walk Jackson Street. Had Pelissetti traveled via Washington and Maple, he literally would have had 2 minutes to reach the Jackson/Maple intersection from the crime scene, to lie in wait for the killer, because supposedly the Zodiac had just disappeared round the corner as Lindsey was trying to get the message over. For Pelissetti to use initiative and reach the Jackson/Maple intersection via Washington would take no more than 30-40 seconds, ample time to have an ice cream and wait for Zodiac. In the process radioing Donald Fouke or another officer to seal off the west side of Jackson. Zodiac would now be trapped.

Alex

3/22/2016 10:52:11 am

Rich, Armond walks over to Lindsey, now I shall assume this means 'Corner of Cherry' where Lindsey is observing the casual man walking away. Now Lindsey see's Him, and Armond is stood right at the same place yet Armond see's nobody. Standing at same place, at the same time are two people Richard, and one can see A Male on Cherry street, and the other cannot. Now you have to believe it Richard because that's the 'Official Version' you see.

"It depends on how far Zodiac was along Cherry, was it right to the corner..."

Richie mate, you are nice enough to give them the benefit of the doubt & I respect that Rich, honestly do. But where was on Cherry is not really what I am looking to answer. Lindsey said the suspect was 'Still within sight on Cherry St' when the cops arrived and this he portrayed to Armond when He had gone over to ask what'sgoing on.
Richard, what they are asking me to elieve is this.....

A Deaf dispatcher misheard the race of suspect, which doesn't matter anyway because first responder is arriving with white stick and is completely blind and the witness can see suspect, the officer is legally blind and \so He cannot.
Fear not, 2nd unit will get Him because it too has two cops, amazingly Richard, One is completely blind, the other one driver past a man and remembers the elastic on the cuffs and if this is amazing enough, He drove by Him and never saw the back of the means head yet He can tell us He WMA was 'Going Grey at the Rear.'
Yes and I believe He is talking out of His rear too!

I the Welsh Chappie, find the defendants and their accounts....... Guilty of insulting Welsh Chappie, and I pronounce sentence as follows:
Cop 1, Donald. You are sentenced to Fouke off and when you have arrived as there, I shall require you to Fouke a bit more.
And you, Mr Armond Lying-From-My-Settee! You Sir, for your grinning and refusal to admit anything at all....LIFE!

Richard

3/22/2016 11:18:37 am

Me give somebody the benefit of the doubt, never. No I am reading it as stated. You said "Now Lindsey see's Him, and Armond is stood right at the same place yet Armond see's nobody. Standing at same place, at the same time are two people Richard, and one can see A Male on Cherry street, and the other cannot." But what it actually says is that Zodiac was right up to the corner of Jackson/Cherry when the cop car pulled up. That could be 6 foot away from the corner for all we know. What I am saying is while Pelissetti gets out of his police car and has approached Lindsey, that 6 feet may have evaporated and Zodiac was gone. I know that Lindsey immediately said "that the suspect was in sight on Cherry St." But that doesn't mean he is looking at Zodiac as he is saying it. Imagine Pelissetti had pulled up alongside the taxicab, back from the corner, Lindsey may have ran over to the police car and said "come quick, the suspect is still in sight on Cherry", because this is what he last saw, but he certainly couldn't be looking at Zodiac from this position, despite using the present tense of 'still in sight' As Lindsey spoke to Pelisseti, I presume he was looking at Pelissetti, saying the suspect is in sight on Cherry, but by the time Lindsey turned round and Pelissetti looked, in that small exchange and fraction of time Zodiac could have turned the corner. And in the words of the Usual Suspects film ending, The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he didn't exist "and like that he's gone".
Gone up Jackson, and even the limp faded, once he reached the end of Jackson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYXXhn9fMYs

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 11:49:51 am

Rich mate they saw Him and stopped to chat. Their 'Official story' Rich Is Officially unbelievable....

But before this, Lindsey is clear what He says, He doesn't of run to Armond Rich because AP Himself admits to parking in the middle of intersection. Lynsey says Armond then walked over to Him to ask whats going on and Lindsey at this point, tries telling Armond that the suspect is still in sight. Now ok, if they are not standing at Cherry when He tells Armond this then that may be a possibility but that cannot Richard why, moments later when Don pulls up and asks Him does He have any info the suspect & where He may be or have gone, Armond claims He told Don: " No" When He clearly does know the direction Rich, but expects you and I to accept He guessed the right direction down Jackson because obviously, that the most likely as a fleeing murderer when right across that Intersection is an entrance into the unlit expanse of foliage strewn Presidio. He's lying Rich, for me there is no question and if He's lying Rich it can only be to cover up the actual truth and if it's not then He's just a compulsive liar who is lying for no reason and I don't believe that for a moment. Anyway, St Armond Gospel of Truth:

**Screech of tyres, Pelissetti arrived and exits his car** RELAX, FOR I AM HERE TO SAVE THE WORLD! Now then young man, what are you doing standing there looking and pointing down the stree for? " Lindsey: "Watching where the guy goes so I can inform you and, look officer, there! That man on Cherry st, that the suspect!!" Armond: "I see nothing child your seeing things, i'm off to the cab now."

Shit, one cop hasn't seen Him! Damn! Wait....What is that? Here comes a second unit and He has eyes on the suspect! Sorry but they are looking for A Black Male due to dick head dispatcher. Don't ask us who this dispatcher is cause we.....we errrrr, we forgot!

Radio again, all units proceed to West Pacific & J. Kahn park urgent, that's all units fly off to the Presidio because the Suspect has gone toward a house on the street, RAISE THE ALARM,

Alex Lewis

3/22/2016 12:46:21 pm

And Don Fouke, well He's completely nuts, doesn't know where He's going, Southbound on Cherry or Proceeded on to Arguello, suspect has gone down Maple into the Presidio......I think! Now let me think, DOWN Maple vs UP Steps. I'll have to get back to in 46 years time, I'll remember then.....I think.

Now how dare you say such things about a distinguished Police Officer! An Award Winning Police Officer! Lynch Him Immediately, get that Welsh Bastard now!
No that is correct, He is Donald 'Award Winning' Fouke Off! You know what it was for, I had mistakenly believed it was for Arresting someone without shooting them first but it isn't. Here is the 'Official award acknowledgement:

Officer Don A. Fouke Off. San Francisco.

During a hectic chase of an armed robber, Officer Fouke Off handicapped Himself by withholding fire when pedestrians and motorists were in the line of fire. Finally He effected the arrest by kicking the gun away from the Suspect.

You see, this man has been awarded for his great work in not shooting indiscriminately at anything that moved and did here when He failed to do with the Red Phantom who is Paul Averly's Secret Pal The Zodiac.

I laughed at the amusing idea that they give awards to cops now for arresting criminals and not shooting them first but I was wrong, and this I find even more amusing, Awarded for not having shot 4 or 5 members dead before arresting criminal.....***Standing Ovation***

Alex

3/22/2016 01:23:00 pm

I didn't mean a singled out one specific example Rich of giving AP the benefit of the doubt not being able to see Z, I mean as in not thinking/believing that they know who that man was, and that therefore, by default because that man was Zodiac, they know Zodiac is!

I mean if Rich you think I have or am putting just tell me "No Alex, your wrong and your a dick head, too" cause I don't wish nor mean to but I say that you don't think they know and are covering up knowing who Z was because you said that on the other thread and that's what I meant by giving them the benefit of the doubt.

There's a report mate, not mine but their own that says a witness who was there at the scene of crime in P.Heights, quote "Identified so-an-so as possible subject in this matter."

Now it doesn't matter if its back or present day Rich, the first thing that happens especially in such a hugely publicised case when an arrest is made or POI brought in for questioning (which they would simply have had to do after positive ID by a witness) is splatter in all over the news and papers. They won't tell you the name usually, not until the arrest turns into an official charge. But nobody even knew there was any witness that made any identification let alone leading to any police action.
If I Identified you today Rich as the man I saw murder a cab driver you have police kicking your door in tomorrow looking for evidence in support of my claim. This man, wanted for multiple murders, several attempt Mueders.,......Nothing. We instead have cops who's accounts are all over the place.
Rich why would this happen if there is nothing to hide? I am starting to lean toward it being a person that Law Enforcement themselves would be mortified and reputation smashed to bits if the Zodiac's name were ever released or known. I don't think or think it is likely a Qvale type with lots of cash & connections., but rather, someone in their own ranks, and now the lower ranks either.

I must say I would find it wonderful if it were discovered one Martin Lee were Zodiac. The images of Him running back & forth arguing and throwing insults at Himself in the Chronicle is very amusing to someone with a very immature Humour like me!

Writing as Zodiac: SF Police could have caught me last night..." *Runs to Chronicle as Cop Chief Lee: "Liar, nowhere in vicinity! And your a clumsy Closet Gay, are you not?" *At home, ZODIAC*
How dare you! I have grown angry now with myself for me telling lies about me! Police shall never catch me, because I am them!

Richard

3/22/2016 01:59:28 pm

We have both seen the 2007 documentary and it leaves a lot to be desired, with conflicting accounts and stories that don't tally. I believe the two police officers accounts are a pick 'n' mix of memory, factual inaccuracies, such as Pelisetti saying "I don't think it was Zodiac", when it obviously was, and "I can't believe he wouldn't see the shine of blood", when no blood had to be present, and the big hand of the SFPD still reigning supreme after many years. I remember a police officer claiming he had tapes or had heard the call was recorded at Blue Rock Springs and he was found to be a blatant liar. But I am using great caution in regards to the forum post regarding the Robbins kids. I don't know the forum poster personally, I cannot vouch for them, it may be a complete fabrication and although I have referenced it with a link, so people can make up their own mind on its validity, how can we judge against Pelissetti, without hearing his response, which we will never get. The forum poster may well have interviewed the teenagers, but all it is is hearsay, and that's all. I certainly wouldn't convict anybody in a court of law on hearsay or a forum post, in a rush to judgement. It is for this reason only I temper my thoughts, as the forum post doesn't come with a certificate, and is not backed up by second or third sources. If true, it pours more controversy onto an already strange state of affairs, but I cannot put all my eggs in one basket, just blindly believe the forum post and end up with severe egg on my face. That's the only reason Alex mate.

Mr Chappie Welsh

3/30/2016 05:24:23 pm

Comments I made on a 2nd thread I shall repost here for and due to relevance:

Don Fouke Timeline Rich, I know this is a point you see as one ofhigh significance, and I suppose I'd have to agree. So, here's my general idea/theory:

Armond gets the radio call as 'Cab driver being robbed and/or possibly assaulted" and was, no doubt, given as a 'Crime in Progress.' It's overlooked as to the actual radio call Fouke responds to, but the words used of 'A call came in of a shooting at Cherry and Washington..." because I suspect this is the radio alert Don gets and responds to issued by the only man who can state Paul has been shot and is dead, that man is Armond Pelissetti.

Armond states He couldn't get to the car radio fast enough to air an update (He claims on Ethnicity/Race of Un-Sub, I maintain it was to air direction the suspect is heading, along with a descript.

Rich you've said many times how come Fouke takes that long to get from Presidio Av to Jax and Map street? I think He on;y responds to Armonds second radio call because this would seriously up the ante....Driver not been assaulted, but murdered. Suspect is somewhere on Jax, armed with murder weapon. All Available Units respond to Maple area on Jackson priority.

If you think of it the incident as given to the patrol cars just mentions a cabbie involved in an altercation possibly being assaulted. This could be a minor scuffle. No huge response needed.....until Armond comes over thee air to update other units in the area driver is dead, has been shot in head, and the responsible is literally tuned down Jax off Cherry as your picking up the radio to air the update.

This as the actual way events unfolded, if you think about it, would fit a perfect timeline. Don only responds when Armond issues the alert of the crime being homicide and suspect just turned off cherry onto Jackson as Don turns West onto Jackson. The Z seen nearing Maple now makes sense totally timeline wise.

Richard

3/22/2016 01:11:27 pm

"Armond claims He told Don: " No" When He clearly does know the direction." That is a fair point and seems contradictory in the least. Who was the forum poster who made the claim of the Robbins kids interview. Do we know this source is 100% bonafide.

Alex

3/22/2016 01:37:19 pm

No idea. I think the suggestion made at the start was that it was a fairly close friend of theirs wasn't it. I don't know. Wasn't it yourself that posted the actual story on the other thread?

Richard

3/22/2016 02:01:02 pm

Yes, but that's just it, it's a story. See above comment.

Alex

4/1/2016 02:57:05 am

"Yes, but that's just it, it's a story. See above comment."

Yep, exactly like that of Armond and Don's Highly Fictionalized version of a set of non fiction factual events. These two would be f'ing useless at Writing Screen Play's for Hollywood, you'd have characters killed in act 1 scene 4 coming back to life in act 1 scene 5, Lead Character hold's up a bank in act 2 by ordering 'Fill this sack up, hurry up!!" then realizing the Bank is one block over and He's holding up the sperm bank, The White couple grieving the loss of the only African American Daughter.
You wouldnt know what the fk was what.

Alex

3/22/2016 02:59:03 pm

I would go see Mr D. Acorah the Liverpool Psychic Medium person to Him to contact but I am a tad too concerned because I have see the Most Haunted episodes and Derek seems possessed by anyone anything in the 'residual energy vicinity' and don't really to sit down with Derek and it go silent for a while before 'The Possession of Human By Residual Zodiac' happens after 15 seconds of silence in dark room "RRRRAAAARRRRRRRRRR" I'm escaped by thrown myself through the glass patio door!

I only mention Mr Acorah because He once did a live TV séance to contact the spirit of Michael Jackson and Rich if you haven't seen it then you are missing out! He had a couple of Jackson fans and A tribute band.....or person, and a Jackson impersonator. I have never laughed as much!

Mr Acorah didn't only succeed in contacting Michael Jackson, but was 'Taken over' by Him. I mean 'Possession' I associate with the demonic and the occult, not really 'Michael Jackson.'

But anyway, the Jackson tribute lookalike thing, well He was in tears and couldn't believe Michael had come to A room in England to say He loved His act and in a suspicious scouse accent.
They put a Phone number asking people to call in with your questions for Jackson, I was on the phone but my question didn't get selected. "I would like to ask Michael to get up on the big table And Moonwalk immediately!

Come along Michael, there's a good lad!

PS: See Richard I told you that when I start ranting like this you have to stop me. I've told you how to do it, just find a photograph/picture of Avril Lavigne and hold out in front of you and say..."Alex, look" and this shuts me down and renders me immobile with a smile and fixated trance like stare.

Alex

3/22/2016 03:11:29 pm

He got possessed by a Locomotive Steam Train once. At least that's what I assumed has taken him over because He pacing up and down the room repeatedly going "CHUUUUSH CHUUUUSH CHUSSSSH CHUUUSH."
Logic dictates Richard, logic dictates!

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 04:00:45 am

Rich which direction did Pelissetti come from/arrive at the scene? He only offers in the Documentary that He and Peda were "fortunately, very close and responded to that corner and were able to do so with red light and siren..." and then says He parked in the middle of the intersection facing the cab that was sitting back from the corner of Cherry on Washington. Well if He's stopped facing the cab in the middle of intersection He surely has had to come from Arguello Blvd way/direction?

Where did He actually come from, or where specifically was He when the radio dispatch was given? I mean Fouke tells is where He was and from there on Presidio Avenue between Washington and Jackson His, Fouke's ETA doing speed limit is 90 seconds, 0.5 miles. Over the speed limit 35 or 40 would take Him 60 seconds at tops to Jackson & Cherry area. If Armond was closer than Don then He must literally been up somewhere around Presidio Avenue?

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 04:04:58 am

Presidio Terrace I mean not Avenue.

Richard

3/25/2016 07:02:23 am

Donald Fouke was just passing Washington Street on Presidio Avenue, Armond Pelissetti was travelling west on Washington and took about one minute to arrive.

You said Alex that if Pelissetti had responded to Lindsey straight away he would have seen Zodiac. But since he didn't Zodiac could only just have rounded the corner of Jackson and Cherry. We know Pelissetti updated on the radio Zodiac's appearance and direction of travel. He must have worked out Zodiac turned east on Jackson, so why didn't he update this direction and direct somebody to cut off Zodiac at the Jackson/Maple intersection. Like I said it takes 2 minutes to travel that section of Jackson, anybody could have cut Zodiac off, even Pelissetti had he travelled east on Washington and north on Maple. I don't understand his actions of dodging and weaving up Cherry, especially considering Lindsey had already told him Zodiac was nearing the top.

Richard

3/25/2016 07:13:29 am

We also know Pelissetti didn't think Donald Fouke saw Zodiac. How on earth can he say that when his description virtually matched the teenagers. Plus he knows it took him about 1 minute to 90 seconds arrive at the crime scene, and he was told immediately of Zodiac heading near the top of Cherry. In this time period he must have known eventually that Donald Fouke from where he started his journey, would have been somewhere in Jackson, making it highly likely he would of seen Zodiac, unless he assumed there were two twins walking that way. Unbelievable!

Alex

3/25/2016 08:26:42 am

" He must have worked out Zodiac turned east on Jackson, so why didn't he update this direction and direct somebody to cut off Zodiac at the Jackson/Maple intersection. "

Where do you think Eric and Don encountered Him Rich, was it not Jackson & Maple Intersection which would have been based on Armond's radio update, Don's probably not remembering incorrectly Richard when He states "We had passed Washington St when a broadcast came in of A SHOOTING at Washington & Cherry street. The actual scene is on Washington and Cherry and not Jackson and Cherry and yet Don stays on Jackson right up to and passed Maple. If He isn't looking for a suspect on Jackson based on Pelissetti's broadcast (No one knew it was a murder let alone shooting until Armond & Frank arrive to check Paul) then He wouldn't have cause to be on Jackson and would have likely turned up Walnut, Laurel, Locust, Spruce or even Maple and onto Washington where the scene of crime was unless obviously, He had reason to be charging up Jackson and it makes sense that if Armond has called for a unit to come up Jackson as the suspect has gone that way and is believed to be between Cherry and Maple on Jackson then that would explain Zodiac not realizing it was a police car until it was almost on top of Him because Don wouldn't have His overhead lights on because He knows there an armed suspect wanted for murder likely very near and A, wouldn't want to alert Him to Police presence and have suspect hide or dash somewhere seeing Him coming and B, would not advertise Himself as a huge red light flashing target for any panicked gunman to open fire at.

No Rich I am not simply assuming that Armond could and should have seen Zodiac on Cherry because He is approaching The Jackson Intersection when Armond arrives, not turned off it and I am using Lynsey's own specific wording of trying to tell Armond as He arrives that, quote: "The suspect is STILL in sight on Cherry."

Anyway, I just discovered something quite astounding, even if it is just rumor there is an FBI memo referring to it.....

The rumor in the mid 90's was that One or more Z letters had contained and successfully lifted a DNA profile from, and that this DNA was ran in the 90's and rumored to come back to none other than, Super Cop D Toschi Himself!

Now I wouldn't bother even mentioning this if it were not for the fact that an FBI Memo subsequently declared that the 78 letter was inactive as the FBI declared they now know that more than one of the Zodiac ;letters were inauthentic and forgeries. More than one!! Hmm
Not offering personal opinion Rich this time either way, but it makes you wonder is this why the Dpt. won't give any requesting party a sample of Zodiac's DNA?

Richard

3/25/2016 08:37:25 am

"Where do you think Eric and Don encountered Him Rich, was it not Jackson & Maple Intersection which would have been based on Armond's radio update", They headed there because it was a logical route, but they never headed there based on the update, had they, they would have known they were looking for a white male, which presumably they didn't.

"The rumor in the mid 90's was that One or more Z letters had contained and successfully lifted a DNA profile from, and that this DNA was ran in the 90's and rumored to come back to none other than, Super Cop D Toschi Himself!"

That depends if it's true, if it is, it depends on where the DNA was, everybody but Uncle Tom Cobbelly touched those letters.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 08:42:17 am

Oh Richard now come on, your not going to suggest that He, Armond must have somehow 'Worked out Zodiac turned East on Jackson' in a 'Well, Witness said He was on East side of the Street...." where there's a darkened entrance right across that intersection that as a cop, you'd assumed 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday that an offender would likely opt to go for before He ever turns East.

Armond either saw the suspect Rich or at the very least, was told by Lindsery He had turned that way and that's when He likely got on the Radio with somethinb like 'All units be advised, Cab driver is deceased with a shot to the head. Witness at scene advised the suspect has left along Cherry and observed Him turn East on Jackson toward Maple. All responding units use extreme caution as the suspect is armed and extremely dangerous."

That's far more likely how and why Armond turned East on Jackson and why Fouke was on Jackson Himself heading off the suspect knowing Armond is coming from His rear.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 08:53:14 am

No but Rich I point out "Where do you think Fouke and Zelms are when they encounter Him because you stated that if Armond knew Zodiac had turned East and given the amended description then surely He'd have radioed another unit to head off the Zodiac at Jackson and Maple streets and I say in response, well where do Fouke is when He see's Him, and you then say ahh but that's just coincidence because they happen to be coming via that route by chance because they had quite conveniently just passed Washington on Presidio Av. when a broadcast came in which would see them head straight onto and up Jackson.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 09:23:36 am

I mean if you believe AP then Don cannot be under this misapprehension that The suspect is A BMA when He encounters Armond even if you believe the BMA was given initially. So, what you have is two cops now who are going to have differing contrasting versions because Armond has said He's issued the update before leaving the scene to walk down Cherry, and Don stops to speak with Him and calls to Armond asking did He know anyhting about where the suspect could be and Armond despite knowing He'd gone down Cherry st claims He replied to Don with "No" and Don claims Armond said He was looking for the WHITE MALE that had just gne down the street.

Armond wouldn't use that term because if I gave a update Rich and you were a fellow cop, I'd assume you knew the suspect race now and so if you pulled up I would say simply something like "I'm looking for the suspect that's just gone down this street" and would not refer to Him as "I am searching for the White Male Rich that's gone down this street" because I know or at leats assume you already know His race because I would have issued a broadcast update to, quote "Let everybody else know."

So neither of the are being factual here in my opinion, I think Armond likely asks Don "Well, you see Him, the witness saw Him go that direction..." and Don likely says "No, there's a white male, crew cut and glasses but I that's wasn't Him, that was Kjell Qvale. Armond probably thinks Don's been duped by a man just claiming He's Qvale and tells Don "That description is the description of the suspect, white male, crew cut and glasses! That was not Qvale it was just the suspect!"

And who knows Rich, Qvale denies being home on or around the time of Oct 11 claiming He was in England attending a business meeting....maybe He was and someone simply claimed to be Him?

Doubtful but you just dopn't know, there has to be some reason the let Him go and we know it isn't because they thought the suspect was black because even if that was initially given, when Don runs into Him He has to know without doubt by then that the suspect is A WMA.

Richard

3/25/2016 10:02:18 am

"That's far more likely how and why Armond turned East on Jackson and why Fouke was on Jackson Himself heading off the suspect knowing Armond is coming from His rear." Yes I agree that's why Armond likely turned east. But if Donald Fouke received the update on his way to Jackson heading off the suspect, what happened to the Arguello update Fouke said he got. Are you now saying this didn't happen. Also if Donald Fouke received the amended WMA description (if this part was ever amended) before he encountered Zodiac then his claiming he passed a white suspect is even more ridiculous.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 01:16:59 pm

No I think Fouke wen't directly to Arguello because He was heading for West Pacific based on that helpful Man's directing Him to go there cause as Armond said "Another unit stopped someone and asked had he seen anyone acting suspicious or strange and the person said "Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio."
This then seen's Don proceed to Arguello and No, I've said Rich for Months, I don't believe for a second that Any BMA was ever issued in error and so no, no update comes at Arguello and Don is simply saying that's what happened to give Him cause and valid reason to go around to W. Pacific Avenue because He has never then, nor to this day, admitted stopping to speak to the man.

I can kinda understand why, bad enough you fouked up allowing who will turn out to be Calif's most wanted man but it's to add supreme bumbling incompetence to add "Oh yes, Zodiac Himself advised me to piss off up street chasing gunmen that never existed, yes, I imagine He pissed Himself with laughter at my burning rubber on His direction.

So, enter the scape-goat........It was not the cops on scenes fault, it was that f'ing dunce dispatcher!!! (Who i Behind the scenes conveniently)

Richard

3/25/2016 01:22:38 pm

Ok Alex got it now. Now that you don't believe the Arguello update, it has become clear. We got there in the end, I was getting lost on West Pacific Avenue for a minute.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 01:38:08 pm

That's Ok Rich, misunderstandings happen mate. I would rather someone hold me to account if they if I may not give my point of view in a way that makes sense. I'd much rather have my opinions and what I base them on questioned Rich that you or anyone else say "Ah, ok I got'ca." and walk away thinking "I have no idea what that idiot is talking about." Lol.

It's not to say I am right Rich, I can't prove aspects of that claim such as believing no BMA was issued, it's just my opinion based on it never mentioned until Z blasts them with PS - 2 Cops pulled a good.... and the fact that when Don see's Z Armond has already issued the update on suspect direction, appearance and may have said WMA - 30's, short hair crew cut wearing glasses' so Either way Don has to know.

Don's own words kinda Hint at His not believing that man He saw was Z in: Seeing it was a WM in affluent area, I didn't think it was the suspect because I assumed He (The actual Offender) didn't live in the neighborhood" and He believed that man He encountered did live in the area for whatever reason.

Richard

3/23/2016 08:12:36 am

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=402

"Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and believing the suspect to be armed with only a knife) ran out his door to see where Zodiac was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Zodiac continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Pelissetti, approached Lindsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Pelissetti asking questions, Lindsey was trying to explain that the suspect was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Pelissetti got the point, they both looked and the Zodiac was gone."

If this interview with the Robbins kids is a solid recollection, it is clear Zodiac had just rounded the corner of Jackson/Cherry by the time Pelissetti looked. Zodiac was last spotted on the east side of Cherry, therefore it is highly likely that with such a short time frame from Lindsey notifying Pelissetti he could see Zodiac, to Zodiac disappearing, it's logical he turned into Jackson. It takes 2 minutes to traverse the length of Jackson on foot to the next intersection. Had Pelissetti hopped into his police car and traveled east on Washington and north on Maple he could have easily cut off Zodiac and lay in wait to ambush him. But strangely Pelissetti proceeds cautiously up Cherry "using all of his police procedures so he didn't get his head blown off." So rather than use common sense to create the ambush, he became worried of the ambush, despite being already told by Lindsey that Zodiac was nearing the top of Cherry, in the above linked interview. Like I said, that section of Jackson Street takes 2 minutes to walk, Pelissetti could reach the intersection of Jackson and Maple, via Washington in 30-40 seconds, radioing for the west side of Jackson Street to be sealed. Zodiac would then have been trapped. If the account above is correct, it is yet another example of police ineptitude.

Alex Lewis

3/24/2016 09:33:02 pm

Pelissetti went after Him on Cherry because He ran to the Radio to 'let everyone else know' the correct racial description He says, well whether that was amended or not He likely gave the direction the suspect was heading. I can't see Him knowing the suspect had gone down cherry and not give that update. I think He radioed and Knew a unit was coming up Jackson or at least called for one to. But why He didn't get in the car and give chase is beyond me. It's safer and a lot quicker to close ground on the suspect.

From my perspective, this makes no sense at all logically to go after the suspect on foot especially when Armond states He dashed to the car to issue a radio update. So He's at the car, Franks at the cab, and Armond decides the best chance of catching the suspect is to walk after Him, which as He Himself acknowledged put His safety at risk because He knows this suspect is armed, which is something no person is His right mind would do if you had a vehicle to go in. It also closes ground a lot quicker.

Rich, I look at it and use the 'Preponderance of Evidence' basis. Civil Law Defines the preponderance of evidence as:

'This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony.'

We can't say we can reach a 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' what happened because we simply don't know the facts because they have given several different version as the 'Facts.' I believe based on what we do know, the story changes, the direct contradictions, the witnesses allegedly asked to help create a composite but give no official statements and a suspect Identified but apparently not arrested nor any word of this ID ever known to the public......they know something that they are not saying. Either that or all this has one innocent explanation after another after another after another and that's just not realistic.

Alex Lewis

3/25/2016 03:01:54 am

I mean I suppose it isn't fair to zero in on Don and Armond as the cops who's blunders leave you scratching your head because it's hard to trump Lake Berryessa's very own Napa Sheriff Dave Collins. I mean if you combine Collins and Fouke's lack of mentioning details then we see authorities trying to apprehend a man who they have absolutely no interest in what He looks like nor could care less where He potentially may reside. Cecelia told Dave Collins that she saw the man's face quite clearly before He put the hood on and She gave Him a detailed description of what Z looked like. Collins never wrote this in any reports or mentioned that Cecelia had seen His face and when asked why, said "You know, I didn't think it was important at the time..." then chuckled. Yes Dave, tis side splitting.
Don Fouke, no interest in reporting seeing the suspect matching the offenders description last seen ascending concrete exterior steps to a property, who care's when we can go play on the Julius Kahn Park Sea-Saw. So between them, when they have a full description of the un-sub they are looking for and a potential/possible house He has a connection to their not interested at all.

Avery's article in the Chronicle referred to Martin Lee as 'Chief of Inspectors Marvin Lee' getting His name wrong, and it seems, His rank. In the 07 Documentary He's captioned as 'Captain Martin Lee, on or about Oct 13th, 1969.' Anyway, whatever His rank, He stated:

"In His violent movements, or rather the violent periods He's been in, He's an absolutely ruthless, completely merciless killer. He calmly goes about His business of uh, in one case telephoning the police, and another tearing a strip off the shirt of the dead body of the immediately killed victim......He doesn't get great excitement over it, He thinks killing is just killing so somebody like that is going to be a very serious problem for us."

Factor in Fouke and Collins leaving out their unimportant details and Martin Lee's comment needs to be amended to end with....

"Somebody like that is going to be a very serious problem for us so we don't want any person or persons giving us a description to help us, this is out of the question as is checking a occupied residence for His being there when He's seen going up steps directly toward the home. We're not interested in a description or residence, because we will get Him ourselves without assistance of this, there cannot be any doubt it is simply a matter of fact!! In theory, that is anyway. You see if He throws Himself in front of a police cruiser and is illuminated within their headlight beams, we'll stop the squad car immediately and ....."FREEZE! Hold it right there! Turn and face my patrol car keep you hands where I can see them! Now, have you seen anyone, specifically Black Male's, acting odd or suspicious in the past 10 mins Sir? You have?? Fkin right, step the gas Don, He at Arguello....GO GO GO GO GO!!!"

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