THE JANUARY 10TH 2001 CARD

12/14/2019

Here is a communication mailed to the San Francisco Chronicle on January 10th 2001 threatening the Muni drivers of San Francisco, widely believed to be somebody mimicking the Zodiac Killer. While this may be the case, one has to consider the style and format of the writing (particularly on the envelope) with respect to previous Zodiac communications. No other authenticated Zodiac communication prior to this one carried the address of "901 Mission Street" with "San Francisco, CA 94103". I believe Tom Voigt of Zodiackiller.com considers the Eureka card mailed in 1990 to be a plausible Zodiac correspondence, placing this communication in his "Letters from the Zodiac" section on the message forum.

The Eureka card is the only other possible Zodiac communication addressed in near identical fashion to the 2001 offering (shown in tandem with the envelope below). The problem arises when we consider that the Eureka card was not discovered until March 3rd 2007 by editorial assistant Daniel King of the San Francisco Chronicle among some photo files. The 2007 Zodiac movie directed by David Fincher and based on the Robert Graysmith book, was released in the USA the day before this correspondence was unearthed, on March 2nd. The movie had its premier in Los Angeles and California on March 1st.

This means that whoever wrote the January 10th 2001 card, addressed it in near identical fashion to a previously unreleased Zodiac communication. The Eureka card wasn't made public until 2007, so the author of the 2001 communication with near certainty had to be the author of the December 1990 Christmas card. You cannot 'copycat' the handwriting or style of an envelope that hasn't been released into the public domain. If you believe the Eureka card to be genuine, it follows that you should believe the 2001 communication to be genuine also. If you hold the opinion that Zodiac was still alive in 1990 mailing Christmas cards, then it is extremely likely he was still active in 2001 doing exactly the same thing.

THE JANUARY 10TH 2001 CARD [PT2]

108 Comments

Rubislaw 32 link

12/13/2019 06:29:01 pm

Yes indeed ,Richard....and so I believe ,The Zodiac Killer was doing exactly the same thing ,with his pen ,in 1990 as 2001.

Not least,that this was a ''coming of age '' celebration of Stanley Kubrick's '' 2001 A Space Odyssey '', as anything .

But not quite ''anything'' :

Paul Avery : April 2nd 1934 - December 10th 2000 .

Indeed , the Zodiac's '' Secret Pal '' ,had passed away ,less than 6 weeks prior.

Perhaps that a part of the Zodiac , was in mourning ( ? ).

And,we thought that the Zodiac was dead ?

No Way !

Richard

12/14/2019 01:10:25 am

That is a good point regarding Paul Avery. We know the Zodiac responded to newspaper articles, so the passing of his "secret pal" would seem a fitting time to fire off a second greetings card at Christmas/new year. If somebody is of the opinion that the 1990 Eureka card and 1970 Halloween card are bound together by Zodiac, then realistically an argument can be made that they have to consider the 2001 card genuine too. The timing of the card with respect to Paul Avery after an 11-year hiatus is an valid parallel to be drawn. The ending (as you infer) "you thought I was dead" a very likely reference to the passing of his secret pal. The other option of course is the go-to hoaxer claim. But now people have got the difficult task of believing the Eureka card was genuine while attempting to explain away their disbelief of this card. A copycat would not have known about the 1990 card in 2001, so the comparison between the two envelopes takes some explaining. This without any doubt binds these two correspondences under one author. And like I said, you cannot realistically dismiss the 2001 card unless you dismiss the 1990 card also.

Richard

12/14/2019 01:46:43 am

I have had another look at the postmark and believe it is the 10th not the 18th, so have corrected the date. That puts it 4 weeks after the demise of Paul Avery, not 6 weeks.

Richard

12/14/2019 02:02:59 am

Postmarked 941, San Mateo County or Santa Clara County - like the Exorcist letter.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 02:13:48 am

I'm all in agreement with you there ,Richard.

This was the best present that Zodiac followers were likely to get ,for the 50th anniversary of Lake Herman Road - we just didn't realize it,at the time.And,a ''nail in the coffin'' for so called suspects,such as ''Ted K''.

Now,it's up to a certain '' Mr.Fagan '' to be a bit more forthcoming about this correspondence....I would suggest ( ? ).

Any further information about extra correspondence inferred,with this card....and,at least let us see the whole of it ,for a possible signature of some sort.

1/10/2020 09:35:49 am

Richard

This JANUARY 10TH 2001 card allows for the suspects to have died prior to this date to be eliminated from the little list. ALA not Zodiac.
Sullivan not Zodiac. And, Paul Avery is not the Zodiac. But the fact that this January card came exactly one month after the death of Paul is very suspicious.

Richard

1/10/2020 01:37:43 pm

I believe that the 2001 card and Eureka card were authored by the same individual. The big question is whether they were authored by Zodiac BB. If they were, then most of the touted suspects would be ruled out.

1/22/2020 03:07:20 pm

Richard why do you think the author of the 1990 card is the same as this author? I don't see a whoIe Iot of similarities

Richard

1/22/2020 04:19:40 pm

The Zodiac began writing on July 31st 1969, and after 20+ communications had never addressed on envelope with 901 Mission Street or used the numbering 94103. Then suddenly in 2001 this communication arrived with these features. The only other communication to contain these features was the previous communication in 1990, which hadn't been released to the public (because it hadn't even been discovered). I find it difficult therefore to believe that they weren't the same author - and this is irrespective of the handwriting.

Richard

1/22/2020 04:26:04 pm

In short, 2 communications back-to-back using 901 Mission Street and 94103, both mailed as a greetings card around Xmas and New Year, using this address format for the 1st time, to be inferred as Zodiac, yet apparently two different authors - I just don't buy it.

Roger

1/22/2020 11:50:34 pm

I have no problem with those addresses at all. Not suspicious, because addresses were often published in editions of the newspaper and other publications and directories, depending on which edition or directory someone has picked up to copy the address, the addresses could easily be replicated by different people at different times. And libraries in those days could easily have copies of old directories still on their shelves. You would have to establish how widely that address had been circulated and released to the public over time. Even if these two letters came from the same author, that still does not make them Zodiac for reasons you yourself stated (Zodiac never addressed his envelopes in that way). So the most logical conclusion is not Zodiac, either one copycat, or two copycats who had written down the same address from "who knows where".

Rubislaw 32 link

12/13/2019 09:08:26 pm

The Laguna Honda hospital,is a rehabilitation centre ,with its origins going back to 1866.The city of San Francisco owed a debt of gratitude to it ,particularly in the work it carried out ,in the aftermath of the 1906 Earthquake.

Honda have manufactured a number of variations of the Honda Odyssey motorcar ,since 1994 .The popular model in the US is a minivan ,which is made in both Japan and Lincoln,Alabama .

Richard

12/14/2019 01:16:40 am

Yes, a hospital for seniors and I calculate that Zodiac being 40 in 1969, would make him 72 years of age in 2001 - rather senior I suggest.

12/15/2019 09:33:42 am

Right - The Zodiac would have to be up there in years by 2001.
And his racist rant about old white muni drivers on welfare or
working at Laguna Honda could mean that he was no longer
driving his own automobile to get around. Perhaps his licence
was revoked.

If the Zodiac was Eric Phillips(66) (death wheel) Weill
Jan 10 2001 was his 61st birthday. He committed suicide
in 2006 at age 66. The movie came out in 2007
I wonder if he was related to James Phillips Crabtree.
Phillips was their other last name not just their middle.

The voice of Sam on the Dunbar Show and Eric should be
analyzed with voice annalists. It is or is not the same guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llrfcrT9Cds

Richard

12/15/2019 09:48:56 am

I believe police are fairly confident Weill was the Oakland PD, Jim Dunbar Show and "birthday" caller, and I see little to suggest Zodiac was involved. My guess is law enforcement would have done the necessary checks on Weill's whereabouts on crucial days and confidently eliminated him as a Zodiac suspect. After his escapade on the Jim Dunbar Show he would have been thoroughly examined - so I highly suspect he came under close scrutiny and was comprehensively dismissed as a Zodiac suspect. He was an attention seeker, which is about the only thing he had in common with the Bay Area murder.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/13/2019 09:29:56 pm

The TV series ,'' The Streets of San Francisco '',was a Quinn Martin Production , financed by The Ford Motor Company....with many Ford cars often featuring.

Karl Malden and Michael Douglas drove a brown 1971 4-Door Sedan Ford Galaxie.The SFPD have traditionally used Ford motorcars for their cruiser fleet.

It does certainly appear that the ( presumed ) Zodiac has road vehicles on his mind ,in this 2001 New Years Card.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 11:42:50 am

Interesting that you should note the Phillips surname shared by both Jim Crabtree and Eric Weil ,BB......though I don't think so,but stand to be corrected.

Near the end of the ''very good'' documentary ,'' This is the Zodiac speaking '',Melvin Belli appears to suggest that ''all'' voices ,that he had been given access to ,were the same person...which we must assume to be Eric Weil .But that has never been confirmed officially ,and we must be the judge of interpreting what Belli actually does say.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 12:06:05 pm

I don't know about anyone else ,but with the Jim Dunbar show ,I can't help laughing ,in a sort of '' post ironic '' way.

It's as if they are attempting to contact an alien,from outer space .

I believe that the general consensus now is ,that Eric Weil represents a ''fly in the ointment '' Zodiac hoaxer....who should have been institutionalized immediately.

Richard

12/14/2019 02:18:21 am

There was also a massive two-page spread in the Chronicle newspaper on October 2nd 2000, stating "The man considered by some investigators to be the best suspect, former Vallejo teacher and trailer park resident Arthur Leigh Allen, took his secrets to the grave when he died of a heart attack in 1992". Zodiac stated "you thought I was dead? No way". Like the Avery connection better though.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx2ZxPLdifaoT1lhZVp6NENIQWs/edit

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 03:12:37 am

I would veunture that we shouldn't be backward in discussing ''handwriting'' if an observation takes our notice ( ? ).

'' ....relatives of inocent citizens...''

Check out the '' of '' here.

Mr.Morford is among those that advocates the '' candy cane '' nature of the Zodiac's lower case '' f ' s ''.But sometimes ,even ,the Zodiac makes them fancier....and his '' f ' s '' start resembling seahorses.

Richard

12/14/2019 05:15:55 am

There is no denying the handwriting is similar and in the same style of pen. The organized and neat way the address is written indicates they are the same author. To write the address on the 2001 card with absolutely no knowledge of the unreleased Eureka card and accidentally mimic it to this degree is implausible and highly unlikely. They are definitely the same person.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 03:22:30 am

....and,oh how the Zodiac likes his '' draughtman's pens '',when he wants to write in more compact form.

Nibs as fine as syringes.

Richard

12/14/2019 04:56:28 am

Tom Voigt stated on his forum "I believe the card is an authentic Zodiac correspondence and I'm sticking by that opinion until I find proof to the contrary. In fact, I'll be in Eureka early next week". He will now have to add the 2001 card as authenticated Zodiac correspondence to his list. Unless of course some wiseguy can explain how to forge a copy of the Eureka card before its even been released to the public.

Richard

12/14/2019 05:08:14 am

Of course, the opposite approach could be taken - if you believe the 2001 card to be fake, the Eureka card should be dismissed also. They seemingly go hand in glove looking at what is written on the envelope. Because these communications are linked, the 2001 card should actually verify the 1990 Eureka card from the standpoint of somebody who wanted confirmation this communication was from Zodiac. The 2001 card implies that Zodiac was the author, whereas the Eureka card contained no written message. Tom should actually embrace the 2001 card with gleeful eyes, because this validates his intuition with hard evidence. I'm not saying I am advocating the 1990 card as genuine, just that this 2001 card should aid people who are already of the belief it is genuine.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 06:14:34 am

I certainly take your sentiments seriously , Richard .

I think '' vitually unquestionably '' the same author of the Eureka Card ,as well as the 2001 New Years Card.

And personally,I would add the 1990 Celebrity Cipher to those two,by virtue at least ,of a ''Secret Pal '' link.In addition,the ''enigma'' of the Eureka Card and Celebrity Cipher ,going to the SF Chronicle and Vallejo Times-Herald ,respectively....when Paul Avery was working for the SF Examainer,at that 1990 time.

The Zodiac's intention,possibly,that he would have a better chance of sending his best wishes to Avery,by ''not'' mailing him,directly,at Avery's office of employment.

So...are these correspondences really the original Bay area Zodiac,or a hoaxer ?

I believe they are all from the ''one and only '' Zodiac.But,if not,then ''all '' from a Mark II Zodiac hoaxer,anyway.

By that 2001 time ,Richard Gaikowski was involved in locally funded projects ,to assist sick people receiving homeopathy medication,such as pot .He was meeting dignitaries to raise charitable funds,and public speaking to bolster public awareness.

Hardly,the sort of person that would resort to treading or re-treading a path of extortion ,and getting cheap thrills ,out of it ( ? ).

Richard Gaikowski died in 2004.

Richard

12/14/2019 06:38:22 am

This is absolutely crucial Rubislaw, regarding people who have believed and advocated that Ted Kaczynski authored the Eureka card. He was arrested in 1996 before the 2001 card was mailed from San Francisco, thereby completely ruling out Ted Kaczynski as the author of Eureka card once and for all.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 06:53:21 am

100% in agreement with you there ,Richard.

As much as I have great respect for the contributions of both AKWilks and Mark Hewitt ....for them,it's '' Game Over ''.

Ted Kaczynski values the '' life '' element of his '' life sentence '' simply too much ,to risk losing it by somehow managing to put out such a correspondence ,as the 2001 New Years Card.

And yet another nail in the coffin for Ross Sullivan.

These ''populist'' suspects are '' falling like ten-pins '' now ( ? ).

Richard

12/14/2019 07:05:33 am

The author of the 2001 card wasn't the only one to address his correspondence this way.

May 3, 1996

Letters to the Editor
San Francisco Chronicle
901 Mission Street
San Francisco, California 94103-2988

Dear Editor:

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/pub/kgo/aama.htm

Richard

12/14/2019 07:08:49 am

Obviously there was a specific column entitled "Letters to the Editor".

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/letters-editor/item/How-to-submit-Letters-56188.php

Richard

12/14/2019 07:12:31 am

Remember this:

http://i.imgur.com/DQjHWNg.png

Richard

12/14/2019 07:17:48 am

The July 10th 1974 Chronicle article was entitled "Zodiac's Letters to the Editor". It featured the Badlands letter that signed off with "A citizen". The 2001 card was addressed "Letters to the Editor" and stated "every citizen murdered in the streets of San Francisco". Coincidence or not?

http://i.imgur.com/DQjHWNg.png

Richard

12/14/2019 07:22:51 am

The citizen card or Badlands letter underlined one word - "ever".
The 2001 card underlined one word - "never".
This would have been one hell of a clever hoaxer, and I didn't underline "clever".

Richard

12/14/2019 07:24:55 am

And both communications had a question mark, at or near the foot of the card.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 02:50:31 pm

Well...that's news to me....that the Badlands ''letter'' was displayed and reported ,first in 1974 ,as a '' postcard ''.

If true,and if only a ''plain postcard '',then there are no extra markings on it ,one might expect ( ? ).Possibly increasing the chances that the FBI '' did '' play with it.

Richard

12/14/2019 03:10:31 pm

Sorry, meant Badlands card.

Roger

12/16/2019 04:33:05 pm

In the old days before email, newspapers usually published their address for things like Letters to the Editor. They showed the correct manner of addressing communications. As editors changed over time, so did the addresses. Some may have stipulated "Att: Editor, SF Chronicle" for example. Others may have asked people to address their envelopes differently, e.g. "Letters to the Editor, San Francisco Chronicle". So I really fail to understand how matching up the way people have addressed envelopes means they must have come from the same writer.

Just one example:

http://www.stonehopper.com/sfsu/dai_527_sandbox/sfgate/sfgate_final/submissions.html

I note that SF Chronicle have now almost entirely removed the postal address option from their websites, which is not unusual as we are now in the digital age.

Richard

12/16/2019 04:47:41 pm

These are not just random letters from "normal" members of the public. These two letters have been touted as potential Zodiac letters years after Zodiac was flavour of the month. I doubt the hoax letters were flooding into the Chronicle in 1990 and 2001, when not only was the internet a pipe dream unable to spread the Zodiac story, but Zodiac himself was largely old news. So two letters with a similar address style 11 years apart, with Zodiac overtones is totally different than just "matching up people" from the general populous. Like I said below, I'm not a great handwriting advocate, but I can see similarities between the two envelopes. But it's subjective - you don't - I do.

Richard

12/16/2019 04:49:25 pm

I know the internet was around then, but not at the level it is today.

Roger

12/16/2019 05:13:56 pm

There are a lot of "not normal" people out there, especially in California, and especially in San Francisco. lol! The chances of either of those communications coming from the original Zodiac would have to be extremely slim. Nevertheless, as I have already said elsewhere, ALL Zodiac communications should be retained in police files, tested for prints and DNA residues.

Zodiac being an olde, I doubt he would fall for emailing a communication from his home computer, that is if he ever learnt how to use one. My guess if he is still out there he would still rely on post and probably wear some kind of disguise in case he gets caught on camera. Big Brother is everywhere these days!

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 07:30:26 am

I'll check out your access references ,and thanks.

But '' on spec '' alone ,I certainly note ,with regard to the Badlands letter.

My personal feelings are...that the Badlands one '' is '' the Zodiac,but with the '' A Citizen '' signature added by the FBI's counter intelligence unit.The Zodiac having '' signed off '' with something else.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 07:41:45 am

.....and of course,an acceptance of the Badlands letter '' in the main '',takes us all the way back to 1959 ,with the '' Hollywood Reporter '' note.

An extaordinary possibility ( ? ).

'' Joining the dots '' over a 42 year period of technical extortion.

Richard

12/14/2019 08:24:18 am

Yes Rubislaw, I actually don't believe the Badlands letter was Zodiac, but there is nothing preventing the real Zodiac adopting them or utilizing them and their corresponding newspaper articles to create future communications. The key here, is not necessarily whether Zodiac authored the 1990 and 2001 cards, but the fact that it's difficult to accept one without the other. Both were either Zodiac, or both were not Zodiac.

Richard

12/14/2019 08:32:41 am

Having previously ruled out the Badlands letter in previous articles, I would hate to accept it again. However, it's always desirable never to be a closed book if something pertinent comes along. Underlining these specific words and the use of "letters to the editor" and "citizen" may have been designed for purpose and not an admission of a Zodiac taking ownership of the Badlands letter. Food for thought nevertheless.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 03:28:03 pm

This whole subject and set of comments has made me go back to the Ocober 27th 2010 Halloween Card and three page letter ,to Robert Graysmith ,Richard. (..'' Midnight Moonlight Mystery ''...)

A 40th anniversary of the Halloween Card to Paul Avery ( ? ).

Robert Graysmith ,whom a suspected Zodiac refers to ,as his ''Count of Monte Cristo ''. ( ''Count Marco'' died Oct.29th 1996..).

There is a lot in that card and three page letter ,to read.

Could we be looking at the Zodiac,as a published extortionist , ( 1959 - 2010 ) ( ? ).

An intriguing thought.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/14/2019 08:30:27 pm

Just ruminating ,to an extent...

The newspapers called the Badlands correspondence,a ''postcard''.

And,this ''postcard'' was placed in an envelope ,then mailed .

If it really is a postcard ,it ought to be a '' plain postcard '', and written on the side ,that would normally used for the address,to sender.

''That'' address side would just have a marked square,indicating where the postage stamp should be placed.And this ''might'' be ,to the bottom right,of where '' A Citizen '' is purportedly written.

For if the Zodiac had used the ''correct'' side,to write,there should have still been a marked line,running along the centre of the card.

This increases the chances that the '' A Citizen '' writing was added to replace something else ,that the Zodiac might have written ,in its place.

If the Zodiac simply cut out a plain piece of card,to fit inside the envelope...then anything is possible.But,if the Zodiac did actually employ a standard ''plain postcard'',then the chances of that '' A Citizen'' part of the card,having been tampered with,has increased.

Robyne

12/14/2019 11:52:22 am

It seems fake as hell, just like the letters sent to tom voigt and were found to be written by that mental case lady from Thailand or the Philipines. It's not that hard to see all the zodiac canonical communications with the internet, even in the very early 2000s.

Richard

12/14/2019 12:54:18 pm

That being the case, Tom has to believe the 1990 card fake also.

Robyne

12/15/2019 02:15:20 am

I don't know what tom voigt thinks or not, but most chances this 1990 Eureka card is also fake, I bet that if u will scan the publishing history of this case, somewhere you will find that there was a rough initial description of the zodiac letters' envelopes and that some maniac who was obsessed with the case read it and decided to tag in, just like how those Fairfield fake letters from late 1969 were made.

Richard

12/15/2019 02:48:26 am

Determining which correspondence is fake or real just by looking at the handwriting is not a good indicator. While the 1990 card may not be Zodiac - determining this from the envelope is impossible. As for the Fairfield letters I have no doubt to their authenticity.

The December 7th 1969 letter stated "I just need help. I will kill again so expect it any time now. The will be a cop. Then I will Turn myself in OK". This wasn't published in the newspapers. 13 days later the Melvin Belli letter arrived stating "Dear Melvin. This is the Zodiac speaking. I wish you a happy Christmass. The one thing I ask of you is this, please help me"

Both letters pleading for help just 13 days apart, and the Belli letter was authenticated Zodiac material with the shirt piece. Just another lucky coincidence I guess. Also the design of the coding on the December 16th 1969 letter shows all the signs of a rudimentary Halloween card style design.

Can it be argued that the Fairfield letter stating "I just need help" and the Melvin Belli letter thrice urging "please help me" just 13 days later, was just simple coincidence, or is it more likely the Zodiac Killer had written the earlier Fairfield letter and was just continuing the theme. In addition, the second part of the December 7th Fairfield letter is threatening to kill a cop just like the communication following the Belli letter on April 20th 1970, in which Zodiac suggested "there is more glory in killing a cop than a cid because a cop can shoot back". Additionally. the Fairfield letter after stating he "needs help," intimates he "will kill again," as does the Melvin Belli letter when warning he "will lose control again".

It really wouldn't be that difficult to mimic the coding of the 340 and produce a nice neat code for any wannabe hoaxer writing the Fairfield letters - but the author of the Fairfield letters doesn't do that. That is because he isn't trying to mimic them, because it's likely Zodiac. People can believe what they want regarding the Fairfield letters, but for me they are without little doubt Zodiac.

Roger

1/19/2020 03:44:37 pm

I think Robyne is correct. I've seen enough handwriting samples now to denounce the Fairfield letters as just another elaborate hoax, unless Zodiac was on LSD and standing on his head when he tried to write this.

Roger

1/19/2020 04:15:10 pm

Yep, Eureka card, fake as hell too. While there are gullible people in this world, these hoaxes will only continue to perpetuate in ever increasing numbers. All these hoaxers need is the spark of a small internet discussion to blaze for an eternity on the net. Even in future, when the original Zodiac will have to be 130 years of age, I can bet that if he is not identified by DNA forensics, the myths will continue to perpetuate, with people suddenly and miraculously unearthing "new" communications from old abandoned houses and finding hidden letters in musty old estate sale books and broom cupboards. It will go on for an eternity providing gullible people are willing to believe in them.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 03:45:12 am

Given the contents of the Fairfield letters,it really can't be anything but a given that they are,indeed,by the hand of the Zodiac.

I'm just looking forward to finding out,what Law Enforcement's reason was ,for denying them ''confirmed'' status.

''That'' is their only mystery,really.

Christmas looming ,perhaps,and a concern about dissuading tourists and potential shoppers from contributing to the local economy ( ? ).

Coupled with the '' Day-by-Day '' forecast cards ,that was '' 4 in a row '' probable Zodiac correspondences within about 10 days of December.

By the time of the Belli letter ,Christmas was upon the good people of the Bay area ,anyway.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 04:12:41 am

The implications of what I am suggesting above is ,that LE ''wasn't'' always ''full on '' in fighting the Zodiac.

When the words : '' Mistakes were made '' is used,that December run-in
to Christmas ,is ''persuading'' as an example.

Looking back , LE needed to figuratively have their foot on the Zodiac's jugular ,at all times , if they were going to stop him in his tracks.

Richard

12/15/2019 04:43:16 am

I recently saw a newspaper article referencing the horoscope threats, however, it was November 22nd 1970.

https://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2017/11/img20170711_18573142.jpg

Robyne

12/15/2019 05:41:45 am

Sadly I can not post a reply to ur comment to my last one here, so here goes: Then how do you explain the fact that the Herb Caen obsessed guy who penned the 1978, 1986 and 1987 letters knew exactly how the authentic zodiac's envelopes looked like? There was a publishing of their description somewhere along the way back in the 1970s when the case was in it's peak.

Richard

12/15/2019 05:57:31 am

You are correct, there was plenty of material for a 1978, 1986 and 1987 copycat, but the Fairfield letters were not published as far as I have been able to ascertain. Besides, it's not the envelopes that is important with the Fairfield letters, it's the content within them. If you can find me a Fairfield letter published in the newspapers prior to the Belli letter, I will gladly retract everything I have just said and admit I was wrong

Roger

1/19/2020 04:08:36 pm

The whole idea of "Please help me, I need help" started way back with the Jim Dunbar show on October 22, 1969. The hoax caller "Sam" may not have used those exact words, but they were pretty obvious to anyone who was watching the show. The caller clearly had a pain that no aspirin was going to fix. LOL! I fail to see 1) how the fact that the Fairfield letters were not published somehow makes them valid communications, and 2) what is so suspicious about the author saying the author writing about killing more people than the cops can count? That just seems like an obvious hackneyed thing a hoaxer might write. And as for the four stars and juvenile bit of code, well that hardly points to an astrology connection. It just makes it look more like a hoax.

Robyne

12/15/2019 06:23:27 am

There was never a usage of the "this state is in trouble" nor that zodiac "will go for government life" subjects in the canonical letters, yet the Fairfield has these 2, and no torn piece of Paul Stine's shirt, so I hope you can see why I'm suspicious.

Richard

12/15/2019 07:10:49 am

I understand why you are suspicious Robyne, but there is a first time for everything. Up to December 16th 1969, Zodiac had only mailed the July 31st letters, the August 4th letter (prized out of him), the Stine letter, November 8th and 9th communications in tandem, and the Fairfield letters, so there was always going to be a first for everything. Zodiac had never threatened cops in his early letters, had never sent mementos from the crime scene, had never asked for help like the Belli letter, had never punched holes in cards, had never sent a map or quoted The Mikado, but we don't rule these out because they were the first time he did it, anymore than we would rule out the Berryessa attack because he didn't keep doing the same things ad infinitum.

These two Fairfield letters were obviously mailed from Fairfield, so he may have been residing away from home at the time and may not have had convenient access to his shirt pieces stored at home. Don't forget, the paper he used for the Fairfield letters were different too, suggesting he may not have been at his usual address on these occasions, so improvised. All I say to people, is if I were a hoaxer wishing to mimic Zodiac material, I would copy his writing and send in a code identical to the writing on previous Zodiac letters and copy the symbol neatly and uniform, just like the 340 cipher in the newspapers. This would be extremely easy and no doubt you or I could manage a replica Zodiac communication easily. The Fairfield letters didn't exhibit any of these qualities, indicating he was either the worst copycat that ever lived, or he wasn't trying to mimic previous Zodiac correspondence. And you know who doesn't need to mimic previous Zodiac correspondence - the Zodiac himself.

Everybody is free to dismiss these Fairfield letters, but for me personally Robyne, I have no doubt they are Zodiac - and that is coming from somebody who believed they were 100% fake just two years ago. But I readily accept others will disagree. I don't normally look at the handwriting alone, rather the content of the communication, such as "901 Mission Street" and "94103" on the two festive cards above (coupled with the handwriting and pen used), separated by 11 years, with the 2001 card written when the Eureka card wasn't published. It doesn't make them Zodiac, but there is a compelling case to be had that it binds them together under one author.

Roger

1/19/2020 03:48:29 pm

"The worst copycat that ever lived" just about sums it up for me. Grammar, style, page placement, flow, form of the characters - all totally different. Most obvious conclusion is a copycat.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 05:12:45 am

Thanks Richard....so it took the authorities a whole year to allow the public to know,what ''may'' have happened ,in the previous 1969 run-in to Christmas ( ? ).

Immediate public awareness,with the assistance of the press who,were all too willing '' to'' assist ,could have made a difference.

And,wouldn't it be all to obvious,one might think,that a terrorist like the Zodiac,was going to advantage himself ,of a time like the advent of Christmas ( ? ).

But,so it seems,the first thoughts of the authorities were ,the potential damage to the hotels and department stores' business.

Individuals llike the Zodiac ,kept coming back,if they weren't stopped.

And Law Enforcement wonder why a case ,like that of the Zodiac's ,haunts them to this day.

50 years.....and counting.

Richard

12/15/2019 04:42:25 pm

Tahoe27 reckons they identified a female author of the October 27th 2010 Halloween card, wheras Sandy isn't convinced. I'm less than convinced too, but it does start with "To Editor" and contains "901 Mission Street" and "94103", so if the author was a hoaxer, the only reasonable assumption to make is it was copied from the Eureka card (highlighted after the 2007 Graysmith based movie). It couldn't have been hoaxed from the 2001 card, as I believe this wasn't in the public domain in 2010.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 06:32:26 pm

Yes...I tended to disregard the 2010 Halloween Card ,because it was discredited at first,by a number of ''seasoned'' Zodiac contributors,and with so many other avenues to explore ,it was one correspondence ''that could wait it's turn ''.

But,that's definitely a bit of '' Well,my suspect was dead by then,so it couldn't possibly be the Zodiac .''....been going on.This attitude has been revealed ,to an extent and more recently ,with the 2001 New Years Card.

It is reported that Robert Graysmith took no interest in the 2010 Halloween Card ,himself,since his favoured suspect Arthur Leigh Allen ,had been dead a long time previous.

I just think that it's time for a re-appraisal....and put a few of these ''dubious grounds'' for ''sniffiness'' about the card and letters.....to the sword ( ? ).

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 06:49:34 pm

Are you able to graphically enhance the envelope for that 2010 Halloween Card,Richard ?

The address is barely visible.

Richard

12/16/2019 12:30:05 am

Somebody's already improved it a bit.

http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/14/95/78/24/rgs10.jpg

sandy betts link

1/17/2020 10:02:37 pm

Thank you Richard, Kevin Fagan gave Zamantha and I copies of that letter, He told us that Graysmith refused to read it. But that was because his Z suspect Art Allen had died, so for him Zodiac couldn't have sent it. There was too much information put in that letter about when and where Graysmith was at certain times. The writer wanted Graysmith to know he had watched him. Tahoe27 has yet to prove to me that she found who wrote that letter/card. It is an assumption she made and she is sticking to it. She also said Kevin Fagan agreed with her? He must have changed his mind , because he felt it was very much like Zodiac's letter and that is why he gave us a copy. I agree with you about the 1990 and 2001 cards being from the same person. I am predicting that if Zodiac is still alive today, he will send another card on either 2-2 -20 or 2-20-20 which both add up to 8 ( a number important to Zodiac.) I don't think we have heard the last from Zodiac! Another thing of interest is that Zodiac has made threats about muni drivers, taxi drivers and bus drivers. He has a grudge it seems against these people? Was he injured by one of them? Someone mentioned that the 2001 card was written on a uneven surface? I believe Zodiac is up in yrs and his hands tend to shake somewhat. As far as the Fairfield letters, I feel Zodiac tried to set up William J Grant for his crimes and that is why he sent them from where Grant was living. I have learned that there are other letters we have not seen yet.

Roger

1/17/2020 10:23:41 pm

Haha! I think I may know who Tahoe is referring to. ;-) She is, as I have found out to my own embarrassment on occasion, often completely right about these things. I also think Graysmith has been around long enough to spot a hoax from a billion light years away by now.

Seems to me there are a few people out there who are still hoping to gain some Brownie points of their own by stoking the coals of the Zodiac mystique.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/15/2019 06:16:51 pm

Who's been watching too many films,like '' Day of the Jackal '' ?

A recent Zodiac post,on the Zodiac's costume ,at Lake Berryessa :

'' Maybe Zodiac knew someone who could make it.....and,once it is made,he kills her. ''.

Roger

12/15/2019 06:48:48 pm

Well if it was penned by the Zodiac, it shows he must be getting on in years.

There is evidence of shakiness that comes with age in that writing. Then again a hoaxer could easily simulate this.

Rubislaw 32 link

12/16/2019 05:53:56 am

As a general observation of the correspondences,both confirmed and unconfirmed,there has been a tendency of sleuths to ''ball watch'' too much.In other words,concentrate too much on the Zodiac,himself,and not enough to how law enforcement were behaving,at the time of particular correspondences.

Take an example,like the murders of Karl Werner,and how this fit in with the Zodiac's activity,now we know beyond reasonable doubt,that the Zodiac had claimed for Snoozy and Furlong's murders,and latterly Bilek's.

The San Jose cryptogram and message of November 1969 ,and Z148,of circa mid-1971....''both'' unconfirmed,and yet both give clues,regarding false claims of culpability for Werner's crimes.In addition the Monticello card,that we have yet to see,in full,which ''is'' confirmed correspondence.

Starting with a ''mere'' hint,with the Dripping Pen postscript (...Des July Aug Sept = 7...)...and picking up,now,with Richard's spot on Hartnell's door (...6:30...),we can start finding clues to the Zodiac's false claims.

Given that the SFPD assisted the San Jose Police ,in bringing Werner to judicial justice,and even what Toschi and Armstrong had to say about suspicions for Werner's crimes,as initially attributable to the Zodiac....we can retrospectively understand why the San Jose cryptogram and Z148 ''weren't'' at the time,made ''confirmed'' correspondences....and yet it is obvious now,that they were authentic Zodiac missives.

A point to be made,perhaps,is that law enforcement (...FBI/CA DOJ..) don't then go back,and change the status of a correspondence,from unconfirmed to confirmed....if it was always ''authentic'' in the first place,but simply hidden from the public ,at a given time...in the interests of investigations.

Richard

12/16/2019 06:42:59 am

The San Jose cryptogram and 148 cipher are certainly Zodiac missives as you state Rubislaw, both centered around the Snoozy and Furlong murders. I can only speculate that with the San Jose murders solved they have sort of mothballed these two communications, along with the Monticello card as not pertinent to the unsolved Zodiac crimes. I don't know that this is the reason, but these supposedly unauthenticated communications tell us so much more about the Zodiac Killer in respect to his obsession with knife crime, but could also shift San Jose into the reckoning as an area he was particularly familiar with. The bigger picture we can build, the greater the chance of identifying him, however slim that seems. In the early part of the Zodiac investigation, San Francisco and San Jose certainly didn't dismiss the possibility Zodiac was involved in the Snoozy/Furlong murders, exactly as Zodiac had hoped. That is why he was pissed with police, telling them to "stop listening to phonys". He was obviously responding to police who were interviewing Werner and telling them not to believe him as he was the true murderer. That is why I believe that the DMV letter is continuing the theme regarding the two young girls murders.

Richard

12/16/2019 07:22:05 am

Cragle has nailed it on Zodiac Killer Site forum

http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=4150&p=76863#p76862

Rubislaw 32 link

12/16/2019 08:56:52 am

Yes indeed,with the emphasis on a move to palm himself off ,as a ''butcher'',Richard.

Even following Stine's murder,there were newspaper reports of LE's interest in '' 4 '' weapons.

Although naturally speculative ,I keep seeing persuading reasons,why the Zodiac needed to ''shift'' the emphasis over to being a '' blade man ''.On account,I believe,that he started this whole business,with three guns.

After Paul Stine,the Zodiac had no guns left,having disposed of each,after use.At that time ,the gun control laws in California were to be tightened....which included no more mail purchases.And the Zodiac anyway,saw the purchasing of guns as a ''fast track'' to being arrested.

Hence,''enter stage right '', Jack the Ripper - Mark II ( ? ).

Roger

12/16/2019 03:35:58 pm

In my opinion ALL of the Zodiac communications should be tested for DNA residues for comparison. It would certainly be the find of the century if a match could be found between a very early communication and a more recent one. I am probably the first to dismiss every communication later than about 1974 as a hoax, and I am sure even some of the early 70s communications were probably hoaxes, or they belonged to different cases entirely and ended up in the Zodiac files as a result of FBI "mothballing". But that does not mean my presumption is correct. I have long held a strong suspicion that the 1986 communication may have been from the actual Zodiac. If that one is a hoax I can only say it is a damn good one! The handwriting, grammar, style, are a very good match for the earlier communications.

Good detective work demands that every communication purporting to be from the Zodiac, including those which "might" have come from him, should be tested. Sadly I keep seeing chronic failings in this regard time and time again. For instance there are rumors some old communications that were once dismissed as hoaxes may have been lost in archives, or have disappeared entirely from police and FBI files. All that is left today in some cases are poor copies of the originals.

Roger

12/16/2019 04:16:44 pm

"This means that whoever wrote the January 10th 2001 card, addressed it in near identical fashion to a previously unreleased Zodiac communication. The Eureka card wasn't made public until 2007, so the author of the 2001 communication with near certainty had to be the author of the December 1990 Christmas card. You cannot 'copycat' the handwriting or style of an envelope that hasn't been released into the public domain."

You've lost me Richard! I must be missing a step or two in your logic. How are those two envelopes even remotely or vaguely similar? They are addressed differently and the handwriting is clearly different!

Richard

12/16/2019 04:31:24 pm

I can see a similarity, but I am not advocating a relationship between both on handwriting per se. What I am considering is two communications supposedly from the Zodiac Killer or possibly hoaxers of the Zodiac Killer (if different authors) managing to both send a Christmas/New Year card using "901 Mission Street" and "94103" (which to 1990 had never been done before), but somehow are different people. How many hoaxers or genuine Zodiac communications had used this style of address previously - the answer - none. Probably yet another coincidence.

Roger

12/16/2019 04:40:13 pm

I'm still confused. Which "other" Christmas card are you referring to? The 2001 card was addressed "94103-2988", not "94103". So how are they the same?

Richard

12/16/2019 04:58:28 pm

They both used the "94103" element. You are not convinced. We have differing opinions and I doubt we will agree.

Roger

12/16/2019 05:06:28 pm

I would tend to think this is more evidence that both are hoaxes rather than a legitimate communication from the Zodiac.

sandy betts link

1/18/2020 12:09:34 pm

Richard , I sent you a email this morning that I think you will find more than just interesting. It is a letter that has writing that matches the 2001 New Years card. You have my permission to show it if you like? The very odd umbrella A in both letters are a match. Many people used an umbrella "a" , but not one with a squared off top. The lower case "b"is also a perfect match. People who don't think the 1990 oe 2001 cards are from the Zodiac, could be perhaps they think he died in 1974? They will be in for a surprise that will be announced in the news very soon!

1/19/2020 12:07:46 pm

Sandy Betts - Do you know of the trial of the Zodiac suspect tried in absentia, and known only as "Sandy"? He was thought to be about 18 years old - the same age as Jim Phillips. Also same height. Same gap in front two teeth. And, same glasses. And same creepy smile too. I'll bet James wishes he did not lie about the pic with Darlene? Now that we have access to facial recognition technology. He surly has to be sweating a knock on his front door. He has moved forty plus times since then for that vary reason surly. Always living near the beach. These days James is living in Lincoln City, Oregon. If they will connect Jim to Sandy then what ever the sentence handed-out for Sandy will automatically apply to Jim.

He even lived in San Diego fairly near to the 1962 murder scene of cabby Ray Davis.
https://historiesandmysteries.blog

Roger

1/19/2020 04:23:27 pm

Sadly it will take a lot more than facial recognition software BB. It will take conclusive fingerprint and DNA matches in order to establish a direct link to the evidence. And we all know that the authorities are no longer matching suspects to the case. They are now resolved to "work backwards" by getting forensics to find the DNA then use various databases like GEDmatch to find a similar family DNA line, then a long and laborious process of elimination until they work their way back to a likely suspect.

sandy betts link

1/19/2020 07:44:57 pm

BB Thank you for telling me about this suspect Sandy. Can you give me his last name so I can check for his address in Oceanside in 1962? This could be very important! The Sandy who was in Santa Barbara 1963 held his cigarette just like my suspect Honcho who I know was friends with Jim and Darlene. He was with them in the Virgin Islands.

RussellP

1/19/2020 07:59:29 pm

Sandy, I may be wrong but I am fairly sure BB is saying that the man in the photo with Darlene is in fact Jim Phillips. We all know Crabtree was the other surname he used, but he may have used aliases too. Please correct me if I am wrong BB.

Roger

1/18/2020 02:01:16 pm

People should be honest about what they actually know to be a certainty. Even if he is still alive (possible), there is currently no proof that he posted those letters. We can only presume, if he is still alive, that he may have. It is equally possible that he may not have and therefore many of the communications in recent times and the last few decades were hoaxes. The handwriting often looks hoaxed on many of these communications, and the grammar and flow of the writing often suggests a different hand (and personality) was responsible. Why do some people like to do crazy things? Because some people like to do crazy things. And just let me add, I am not clairvoyant and nor do I profess to be a fly on the wall in every PD and forensics library in the country. Professing to be able to predict the news is a fifty-fifty chance, and it occurs to me that certain individuals have been predicting an earth-shattering news breakthrough in support of their own theories for many decades. We have heard it all a thousand times before, and from the same individuals.

RussellP

1/19/2020 07:52:00 pm

Sandy, is Honcho the man shown here in your photo?

http://imgbox.com/isYcl14B#

sandy betts link

1/19/2020 08:46:54 pm

Russellp , I am not able to see the picture, I can assume it is a picture I have posted on a few Zodiac sites? I call him Honcho, I am told he uses the name Anthony and Tony as his first name, no one seems to know his last name. That picture was taken Aug.10th 1990, which made him extremely angry! He looked to be about 50 yrs old at that time. You are correct about the man in the picture with Darlene being Jim Phillips. My friend Dr, Howard Davis spoke to some of their friends who said for sure that is him. I saw him in Santa Cruz in the mid 90's and asked him if he was Jim Crabtree, he said no! But I knew better, he is a liar!

RussellP

1/19/2020 09:25:34 pm

Thank you for the confirmation. I think you have to click on "continue to image" to see the photo.

Yes I agree with you, the man in the photo with Darlene is Jim Phillips Crabtree.

1/20/2020 05:00:09 pm

Hey everybody! - Excuse me for my absence - I had to run-around and get my car smoged - major pain in the ass.

Putting all this Zodiac stuff together though - Roger is right - there is nothing that would ever convict anybody in a court.

But, that does not stop investigators from using polygraphs to narrow-in on suspects - though polys are inadmissible.

So keeping that in mind, The guy known as "the laughing boy" AKA Sandy - we think is James Douglas Crabtree.

I personally think that Honcho may also be an alias for the man formerly known, until 1969, as Jim Phillips.
Who takes a third wheel on a honey moon? Honcho was Darlene's way of saying Jim without actually snitching on Jim.

As far as this photo
http://imgbox.com/isYcl14B#

which looks a-lot like Jim but it is actually Larry Klien. (Albeit in Jim's older age) Also Klien had much darker hair. But,
they could easily be mistaken for one another. And, this could also be a cause for miss-identification which humans do, but computers don't. Also, there are several of these facial recognition applications, and there are several companies that are doing FR. Facial recognition technology has come a long way in recent years. Hackers - they can steal your passwords, but they can’t steal your facial dimensions. Bank and store security cameras now use this technology and so does Law Enforcement. They are really starting to use FR more and more everyday. It is not something to scoff at. We have to get on-board with this technology or be left behind. As far as the Zodiac is concerned I think we can keep up the pattern that we seem to be stuck in.That is - to be scared and wait until he dies like a bunch of other suspects we trounce. Or we can change. We can provoke him to actually bring suet. Until now Jim has kept investigators at bey with the empty threat of a suet. That, and moving every year seems to be his Mode of Operating. I'm tired of his games. Also, I think Jim was tried and convicted in absentia for the murder of Vern C. Smith in 1963 at the age of about 18 under the alias "Sandy". All of the sketches of Sandy look just like that picture of Jim with Darlene (albeit in Jim's younger days ).
The young James looks much different than the older James appears. In a law suet we can bring all this out Voir dire all the evidence. And, if it is him as many suspect he will finally pay for the killing Darlene, Vern and others. Or he will win and be cleared of a lifetime of moving and dodging conversation and suspicion. Then he would be free to make a movie about his life as the most pathetic Zodiac victim. Never willing to come forward and dodge being questioned because he might say the wrong thing. Always playing games with us. Moving constantly - living in a tepee and even confessing to his roommate - just to bully him for his room back. Is this just more speculation? Or are we narrowing-in on the Zodiac?

sandy betts link

1/20/2020 05:37:29 pm

BB. The reason I know that Honcho could not be Jim and that Honcho did go with them to the Virgin Islands is. There is a photo album that was Darlene's and there were pictures of all three of them. On one page that says below where one picture was. said JIm, Honcho and me ( Meaning Darlene). I have a time line from someone who had Jim as his suspect. There is nowhere that has him in jail for Vern Smiths murder. That case has not been solved. I went to his grave as well as Robert Domingos, both are in the same cemetery. Not sure if Linda Edwards was there as well ? I can tell you that Jim will not hesitate to sue you, he went after Rick Edge who had Zodiaczee site and shut him down! That was a shame , because Jim was there chating with all of us and I was asking him questions. But two people one who is well known to many of us,screwed everything up , because she couldn't keep her mouth shut when I told her to just let Jim talk. Give him enough rope! I agree with you about the Sandy drawing looking a lot like Jim. Those thick lips are a match for sure!

1/20/2020 06:06:08 pm

The Unknown guy thought to be someone calling himself "Sandy" was tried in absentia. I am not the only one saying that the Sketches of that unknown guy calling himself "Sandy" looks just like a young Phillips. And therefor we extrapolate that that means that Jim could be that unknown guy calling himself "Sandy". I did not say that Jim did time for that - I said that if the authorities find - that they are one and the same person - then what ever that sentence was given to unknown guy calling himself "Sandy" will apply to Jim automatically because he would be determined to be that same person. At that time they tried the individual known as "Sandy" for the murder of Vern they did not know who he was. So even though there was no person to put on trial (just an empty chair was used) they tried him even though he was not known at the time and was not present (absentia).
I just asked that question - to find out what that sentence was - Life?

RussellP

1/20/2020 06:06:43 pm

Sandy I think you are right, it is clear to my eyes that your Honcho suspect could not be Jim.

You say "There is a photo album that was Darlene's and there were pictures of all three of them. On one page that says below where one picture was. said Jim, Honcho and me."

Sandy, is there a copy of that photo on the net any place? I would like to see it.

sandy betts link

1/20/2020 07:03:33 pm

RussellP, I wish that was the case, but where the picture" had been" was removed. Below where is was were the words Jim , Honcho, Myself. It was on page 25 of the album. I want to look at that album and asked Ton V to set it up with Dean Ferrin , so we can look at it. He may not be interested because it is not his suspect in the picture, or he thinks its useless? My friend who worked in Navel intelligence was who told me what he saw in that album. Confirming there was a guy who called himself Honcho who was with Jim and Darlene. When I asked Jim whom was Honcho, he acted dumb and said could have been Darlene's dog? I think Honcho was who Jim lived with in Mexico.

BB I doubt LE will arrest Jim ,because he looked like a drawing. They need much more than that.

1/21/2020 03:33:38 pm

The Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department announced that there was "considerable evidence" that the Zodiac may have been the killer of Domingos and Edwards. And, that the individual who was known in 1963 as "Sandy" was probably the same person who later became known as the Zodiac. And I am merely saying that I agree with that. And I agree with the people saying that James Douglas Crabtree was that same guy - going only by the name "Sandy" back in 1963. Therefor Jim Phillips is likely the Zodiac.
What other suspect looks like the sketches of the 1963 "Sandy"?
http://mk-zodiac.com/sandy1.html

1/20/2020 08:37:33 pm

The trial was extensive and had several witnesses take the stand to convict the unknown guy thought to be someone calling himself "Sandy" this was real and took place in the 1963/64 time period.

http://mk-zodiac.com/sandy1.html

Roger

1/21/2020 04:53:09 pm

BB, you need to step outside what is essentially a logical fallacy.

1) The Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department announced that there was "considerable evidence" that the Zodiac may have been the killer of Domingos and Edwards.

Probably true.

2) And, that the individual who was known in 1963 as "Sandy" was probably the same person who later became known as the Zodiac.

Did they use those exact words? Or did they say "may be the same man" as the Zodiac? Also they were talking specifically about the unknown Sandy suspect from the Domingos/Edwards case.

3) And I am merely saying that I agree with that. And I agree with the people saying that James Douglas Crabtree was that same guy - going only by the name "Sandy" back in 1963.

That has never been established! The Sandy who killed Vern Smith may have been a different man entirely to Jim Crabtree Phillips, who was blurred in with the "Sandy" identity due to confusion on several internet forums in 2013-2014. Do we know for certain that Jim Crabtree Phillips ever called himself "Sandy"? No we do not and moreover there is no evidence of that from any people who knew him.

4) Therefore Jim Phillips is likely the Zodiac.

Your reasoning is backwards for reasons I have just provided.

5) What other suspect looks like the sketches of the 1963 "Sandy"?

LOTS of different men from that time!

Roger

1/21/2020 07:57:55 pm

Some more things to consider:

6) Sandy, Coleman, and Reed were suspected of involvement in the Domingos/Edwards case in 1963.

7) The '63/64 period was before the time of Cheri Jo Bates AND Zodiac! So how could the findings of the Sandy trial implicate Zodiac? Zodiac did not even exist at that time.

8) The police press release many years later in '72 was when a possible connection was drawn between the Domingos/Edwards case and Zodiac. Note that this release DOES NOT mention Sandy or Vern Smith. It only mentions the Domingos/Edwards case in relation to Zodiac. http://www.zodiackiller.com/SBPressRelease.html

9) There was never a separate "Sandy Trial in Absentia" as some people have tried to imply. The unknown boy known as Sandy had to be included with the names of those indicted in the trial of Coleman and Reed to satisfy certain legal precedents at the time. During their trial, mention was made of the unknown individual who (by the admission of only Coleman and Reed) was known as Sandy.

Detectives had found reasonable evidence to suggest Sandy must have been a real person. For instance, Nellie Harris had clearly stated that she had been robbed by three young males. But really, after they parted ways at some point, Coleman and Reed may have embellished their story in the hope their "phantom alibi" might send the police on a wild goose chase. One of them may have booked into a hotel under a presumed name, then they both left together shortly after visiting the room. And, for an added touch, threw a bundle of old clothes out on the roadside to advance their own cover story. This created a plausible alibi and by that time Sandy was now long gone and unlikely to come forward to challenge their claims.

sandy betts link

1/21/2020 08:02:02 pm

Roger, I agree with you. I have a dear friend who worked the Domingos/ Edwards case and he told me no way could the guy named Sandy be their killer. Sandy was a transient and the killer was not, because of the things he brought with him to commit that crime. People tend to lock in on a suspect then try to make the evidence fit , it doesn't work that way. Jim Crabtree was not the Zodiac. And no one in Darlene's family has ever told me that Jim used the name Sandy. Being my name is Sandy, I would think they would have told me.

1/22/2020 11:21:51 am

I do not make these claims on my own.
And, I did not make them-up.
This hypothesis was here long before I ever learned-of it.
I'm only saying that it is the best of the possibilities I've seen.
Graysmith's books are in the fiction section for a reason - as they are not true.
And, Jim would never tell anyone in his wheelhouse that he's used other names.

sandy betts link

1/22/2020 09:17:04 pm

BB, I hope you don't think I am accusing you of making any of this up? I am only letting you know what I was told. I have no doubt he used different middle names, because when I investigated him I saw he changed his middle name. The note he sent to Blackwells in England was the most interesting thing I saw that he sent.

donald turco

2/2/2020 12:39:28 pm

I'm not a handwriting expert but I do KNow how to compare samples. Those two envelopes are by different hands. Look at the N's and the E's.

sandy betts link

2/2/2020 04:51:27 pm

donald turco, I am not an expert either, but I have studied every letter and envelope over the years and noticed that Zodiac often changed his style of writing. If he is drunk,.high or angry when he writes it is a bit different, but certain things do stand out that show it is the same person. The notes and letters I received from my poi, look different in some ways, I know his wording. Its as if the letters have a voice and its the same voice. There were letters that the so called experts went back and forth on. The reason I felt they were real ,was I knew that the Zodiac had a very odd way of sealing his envelopes. I was told that by David Toschi back in 1970. That bit of information was recently confirmed by Tom Voigt, from an inside source.

wish iknew

2/16/2020 10:38:53 am

Red Sealing Wax

Oh good grief

2/16/2020 03:27:26 pm

Sealing wax? Information from top secret "inside sources"? I refuse to believe any of this until I see that little thing called evidence. I have seen plenty of photographs of the rear side of the Zodiac's envelopes and I'm afraid I cannot see any trace of wax seals. Also this is never mentioned in any of the police or FBI reports. Oh but of course that information was "top secret", so it was left out of the reports. Hahaha!

There seems to be a common theme among certain individuals to release these kinds of "secret insider tidbits" every so often, to which they are never able to furnish any proof. It is a common MO through the decades, and always (consistently) from the same individuals. I expect any replies to this will be formulaic and as expected. MOs never change. Rolling eyes.

sandy betts link

2/17/2020 09:49:10 am

You can roll your eyes all you want, the fact remains that it was kept from the public for a reason. And no it was not red sealing wax. It was a bodily fluid , which has a lot of DNA. So no the envelopes were not licked. Dave Toschi didn't tell me what it was, Tom V found that out from a reliable source. He told me what was used last Dec 20th and that was when I reminded him about the conversation I had with Det Toschi in 1970. That confirmed what was told to me in 1970.

Oh good grief

2/17/2020 02:48:56 pm

All of these "insider reliable sources", we've heard it all before. Toschi did not trust the press with such information and yet you walk in off the street making various claims with little evidence to back it up, and he just happens to like you so much he reveals this top secret knowledge to you. Unlikely! This would also mean it was so top secret that the police and FBI were under strict instructions to leave that information out of their reports in case someone gets hold of a copy under FOI 30 years later. Again, unlikely! If there was DNA material of that quantity smeared on every envelope, they should have been able to gain a full profile years ago and the killer would have been identified long ago. But of course you will probably counter this by claiming he smeared the bodily fluid of a different person or other people on the envelopes to confuse forensics. Or he was some sort of loner from Mexico or some place whose DNA can never be matched to anyone, because he is a phantom Honcho. Face it, this is just another "rabbit hole without end", which is what we have come to expect, based on DECADES of past experience.

Donald 73

2/17/2020 06:51:16 pm

From memory, I think Honcho was the name of the dog in the picture.

wish iknew

2/18/2020 05:47:19 am

I`m all new to all this but im glad it was not wax i guess my suspect (H.D.S.) is not z,,maybe,

THE JANUARY 10TH 2001 CARD

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