THE JACKSON STREET INCIDENT

6/25/2015

THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE WAS SENT TO ME BY ALEX LEWIS, OUTLINING HIS THOUGHTS ON THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 11TH 1969. TO VISIT HIS SITE PLEASE VISIT THE LINK AT THE FOOT OF THIS ARTICLE.

It's no big secret now that I have long suspected it was actually Armond Pelissetti, and not Donald Fouke, who stopped and spoke with Zodiac. Or to be a tad more specific, 'Called him over to them.'
Don has always adamantly denied he neither stopped a suspect that night, nor spoke with him declaring "That is an emphatic statement by me! I wouldn't make the denial" and went on to state quite passionately "We DID NOT stop the Zodiac! We didn't stop anyone! I wish Eric Zelms were alive today to tell you so." Armond Pelissetti has claimed that Don told him that He had stopped someone that night, but not on the night itself but rather, 'In subsequent conversations with him.'

So, lets look not at what we don't know, but what do. Based on this I will try and give my reasoning as to why it is likely Pelissetti who spoke with Zodiac and not, as is commonly accused, Don Fouke.

Don consistently denies speaking to a suspect, or in fact, anyone in the vicinity at all that night. Armond, on the other hand, freely and openly admits that it was he who encountered a White Guy saying "I asked that Gentleman had he seen anybody in the area and he told me 'No.' Well hold on, wasn't that kinda the same question that Zodiac wrote a cop had asked him that night, too? "This cop car pulled up and one of them called me over and asked had I seen anyone acting suspicious or strange.?"

Time-Line: Armond is on record as saying He and Frank Peda responded to a radio call at 21:55 that told them a cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets, Pacific Heights. He states, and I quote "We, fortunately, were very close and responded to that corner, and were able to do so with red lights and siren, and got there very quickly." Well, so Armond is close, responds and gets there real quick. Again, turning to Zodiac's brag: "About 3 mins after I left the cab..." is his claim of the moment the cop car pulled up and called him over.
Fouke doesn't respond to the initial radio broadcast that Armond does, Fouke responds to a broadcast that can only have been issued AFTER Armond has arrived and assessed the scene because Armond, as previously stated, responds to 'Cab Driver being robbed and/or possibly assaulted" whereas Don Fouke states He responded after "A call came in of a shooting at Washington and Cherry Streets." There is absolutely no way anybody can know, bar Zodiac himself, that Paul had been shot in the cab, not until Armond arrives on scene and inspects the scene and body.

Travel Direction: We've all seen Jackson St, if you were to stand at the Intersection of Cherry on Jackson Street and look Directly down the street (In the direction of and passed Maple St), then the visibility distance is a good mile easily! So, lets assume Don's coming up Jackson as Zodiac is lumbering down Jackson. Why would Zodiac wait until Fouke and his flashing lights are literally within arms reach before he decides to duck into or onto a property? Surely he would see Fouke coming 30 seconds away and could and would have turned into a front drive or gateway to obscure himself from the view of the passing patrolmen? Now see, if Armond is the cop who dashes after the Zodiac based on the witness statements at the scene, then the problem solves itself of its own because Zodiac would have his back to any approaching cop car and also have less time to react and hide if the cop came from Cherry and he's just approaching Maple.
This would also explain the need for the cop to 'Call me over' as Zodiac proclaimed. If it's Don encountering and speaking with the Suspect, both Don and 'The Suspect' are on the North side of the street. All he has to do is roll up right next to him. If your coming down the hill in a vehicle, your now on the other side of the street to the 'White Guy' and would need to stop and, as Zodiac said, Call him over to them.

https://welshchappie.wordpress.com/

67 Comments

Alex Lewis link

6/23/2015 11:14:06 pm

Tell you another thing I realized Rich, if Don responds to 'A shooting at Washington and Cherry Streets' as He says he and Eric did then this must be after Armond had arrived on scene and checked Paul and noticed Hed been shot and either broadcasts an update himself that the driver has been shot or radioed in to HQ who, in turn, put the call out to all other units in the area to respond. Either way, Armond said he ammended the suspects description from Black to the accurate White Male basically within minutes of arriving on scene and speaking with the witnesses. So the question is, how can it be that if Don responds after and based on Armonds update that He isn't aware or told that the guy they need to be on the lookout for is White?

Richard

6/24/2015 02:27:01 am

Yes Alex, Armond Pelissetti said he received the call at 9.55 pm and with red lights, being very close arrived at the corner of Washington and Cherry shortly after (could not based on his wording be much after 9.56 pm, parking his police vehicle in the middle of the intersection. After ushering the child eyewitnesses back to their house, he proceeded to the taxicab immediately and was certain Paul Stine was deceased. This could have not been much later than 9.58 pm. The dispatcher had sent out the WMA description at 9.55 pm. At this point Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms were heading north on Presidio Avenue in the Richmond District and had just passed Washington Street when Fouke, like you said, received a call of a shooting. Assuming he was correct then this must have been the amended description, because again like you said, nobody knew this until first responders had arrived at the scene. Pelissetti said he retook the description of a WMA and couldn't get to the radio fast enough to let everybody else know. At this point assuming Fouke had now received the fact it was a shooting, he must also, if things are correct have known it was a white male, but he apparently didn't. So if he was under the premise of a black male, he must have received information of an assault and robbery, and him stating he was responding to a shooting was done with hindsight.
If therefore this was the initial call at 9.55 pm, Fouke and Zelms, even travelling at 35/40 mph were less than 90 seconds from 3712 Jackson Street where the stairwell incident was supposed to have took place. This could be no way later than 9.57 pm, which sounds spot on, because if the initial call to Pelissetti was 9.55 pm, the children probably rang in about 9.54 pm, just as Zodiac was finishing up at the scene. The Zodiac claimed his encounter with cops was along Jackson Street, if around house 3712, then Zodiac's claim is spot on, as it takes 3 minutes to walk to this point (now 9.57 pm) from the corner of Washington and Cherry and ties in perfectly to Fouke and Zelms passing this exact spot.
Earlier I stated that Pelissetti would have sent out the amended description at about 9.58 pm, but by this time Fouke and Zelms had already have passed Zodiac and would have arrived at the corner of Washington and Cherry at about 9.58 pm, when this new description was sent out and makes sense from everything Fouke said. I don't know what standard police practice was like in 1969, but I am sure when Pelissetti sent out the revised description, also knowing the suspect had headed up Cherry, he didn't expect officers to depart their police vehicles when travelling down Jackson toward Cherry Street, but knowing the suspect had headed that way, he claimed in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' he proceeded up Cherry on foot, using standard police practices, checking all the alcoves and parked cars. If this were the case, he would never have caught up with Zodiac, who had most likely reached the corner of Jackson and Maple at this point. The problem begins here: Fouke stated that only after they had turned into Cherry and approached the scene did they bump into Pelissetti, this had to be 9.58 approximately, give or take a minute, however if Pelissetti had left the corner of Washington and Cherry, after receiving the amended description and had walked up Cherry and all the way down Jackson Street to the intersection with Maple, being careful and using police procedure, this journey would have taken him at least 4/5 minutes, and he talked to a man with a dog. Fouke stated he met Pelissetti after they had turned into Cherry, at which point Pelissetti had stated he was looking for a white male going down the street. Fouke when he met Pelissetti said he was still under the illusion of a BMA, this was the initial call and therefore was still under the illusion of a robbery and assault and therefore could not have known it was a shooting at this point. I believe in the documentary he stated 'shooting' while travelling up Presidio Avenue in hindsight, recalling the story years later. The question is, if Pelissetti was on foot at the point he met Fouke, why didn't he use his vehicle to track Zodiac when time was of the essence or did he deem it too dangerous, after all from what I can gather Fouke and Zelms turned round and returned back up Jackson.

Richard

6/24/2015 02:49:58 am

The timeline of Zodiac and Fouke being in Jackson Street at 9.57 pm is spot on, but the biggest problem here, is that if when Fouke met Pelissetti in Cherry and it was only at this point Fouke was corrected on the descriptuon of the suspect. Fouke said that Pelissetti had told him he had just been looking for a white male, he corrected Fouke and said according to Fouke 'no he was a white male', but he should already have known this if Pelissetti as he claimed had sent out the revised description at the corner of Washington and Cherry after talking to the teenagers, but he apparently didn't know, which makes little sense. Pelissetti remember retook the description before he went on his slow search and informed all police vehicles, so how could Fouke be still under the idea of a BMA when he met Pelissetti a while later.

Alex Lewis link

6/29/2015 01:25:42 am

You know what Mate there is only one real conclusion that I can arrive at and it is one that for many years has persisted in the back of my mind that won't go away.

Both you & I Rich aswel as numerous others have, for years & years now, tried to find the answer to why Don and Armond's accounts don't match up what-so-ever. These account they give have changed several times over the years and yet, dispite this, their evolving verions of the events still don't make sense logically and more importantly, are not even possible chronologically no matter which version we look at.

I myself Rich have always wanted, as I know you yourself have by reading some of your articles on this topic, to believe that there is an explination for their discrepancies and we've both looked for that missing detail that would make it all fit and make sense. We've never found that missing detial/s and as hesitant as I am to really say it, there really is only one answer I can think of or conclucion I can arrive at and it's that Don or Armond, maybe both, are deliberately either misrepresenting the facts regarding what happened that night, or at the very least, are not telling us one or more vital facts from that night that would finally make us go "Ahh, so that's what really happened, makes sense now."

See Rich now I've put that in writing I am inviting the title to be thrown at me of 'Conspiracy Theorist' which comes with a definition assumed by most something along the lines of "Conspiracy Theory: A theory or idea that is believed or suspected by the Paranoid Schizophernic Community." Anyone who wishes to see my claim here as ridiculous because of what the idea implies, namely, one or more people within Law Enforcement are lying to cover up what it is they know about the thruth of a crime, it's events, and who the offender was, then be my guest but anyone who does I must insist that they not just simply tell me I am wrong, but a full reason to explain why I am way off the mark here. I welcome that because I don't want this theory to be correct because it means, if it's correct, we will simply never see this case resolved because people who are in positions that eable them to do so, are making every effort to keep this case on the cold case shelf and innactive.

So I implore anyone to tell me why I simply mistaken, misled or misunderstanding the circumstaces of the Pacific Heights Event and I'll gladly drop this idea or theory as not only a possible one but, as I see it at the moment, the most likely and only one that explains why it ever has made sense nor even possible for what they said happened to actually have happened.
To potential critics I will point out that it is not I that am calling Don Fouke a liar, or accusing him of misrepresenting the facts of a crime and I don't need to because the Man himself admitted He had not stated the truth in his memo as to where He had last observed the Subject heading. He himelf has made these admissions so I am not simply speculating or arriving at a conclusion based on nothing, to the contrary, the cops involved in the incident have welcomed this by themself contradicting each other constantly, changing their accounts on who saw who and where and when, before admitting to outright falsifying evidence in a report.

The idea of this theory is a very scary and alarming one because if true, it means that they know who Zodiac is and/or was. If they know who He is and He was 'Average Joe' the carpenter & your everyday next door neighbour then we'd have been told that back on October 12th, 1969 the day after his arrest and capture.

The reason this theory is extremely unpopular is because it simply isn't a concept we want to even believe could be possible, that those who we see as a society are there lookning out for us and to are protecting and serving us with Honor could ever actually be actively helping to conceal the identity of a wanted serial murderer. That strikes fear at the heart of most people because if you accept it as true or even being possible, then their idea of Society and Law is forever changed.

If I had to speculate as to whether I believe that Don and or Armond are the willing co-conspiring parties or simply a 'Lower cog in a chain' if you will who have been told not to disclose what they know or saw that night possibly under threat of their own job security then I'd guess that, and this is based on Fouke entire Body Language & seeming reluctance to look directly into the camera when He's describing the encounter with the White Suspect in the 07 Documentary that Fouke is not very likely to be supporting this concealed info and that He's probably just towing the line that was put in place by another person or persons that are far superior to himself in Rank.

Armond comes across to me as a man who, if He is concealing or witholding crucial info on the orders of another then He won't loose sleep over it probably rationalizing "These are My superiors, and the

Alex Lewis

6/29/2015 01:43:24 am

Continued....

I;m just following their orders."

Jus go watch the Documentary back, i'll post a link after this comment with the interview in question. Don Fouke will and does look directly into the camera when he's giving his account of the events on Oct 11 and seem comfortable......Untill He is asked to describe the encounter with the 'Un-Sub' on Jackson St. The camera cuts to Fouke who is now looking down toward the floor and the first thing out of his mouth is not words, but a deep and experaspirated Sigh. I'm no body language expert I admit, but even I can see the dramatic change in his entire demeanour. He then, after the sigh, says "I would like to say He made eye contact with us...." something that Don seems to want to avoid at this part of the interview. He seems uncomfortable with this particular part of the account which, if there is a positive to be said for Don, makes it very probable that it's not his idea to not tell the truth. Blow is the link and the specific recounting of the white guy by Don starts at 1.26:37 into the Documentary.

Link: https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys

Richard

6/24/2015 03:32:44 am

If Zodiac had travelled up Cherry and walked along Jackson Street, then it is with high probability that the mystery white male Fouke spotted was Zodiac, as the timeline makes sense. If it wasn't Zodiac then he must have entered the Presidio via Cherry Street, which makes more sense anyway. Why would the Zodiac travel along Jackson knowing this poses a greater risk than travelling down West Pacific Avenue, whether or not he had a car parked at Jackson/Maple or in WPA. Common sense suggests 'get off a road likely to have approaching police vehicles'. After all if his initial intention, or had murdered Paul Stine at Washington and Maple, then this would back up why Zodiac was travelling east on Jackson, to reach his waiting vehicle or head into the Presidio Park via Maple, where he had initially planned, but why not achieve this in the more secure route of West Pacific Avenue, where you can at least re-enter Jackson (if his car was there) with little chance of detection.

Greg

6/24/2015 11:24:58 am

Richard--Is West Pacific Avenue accessible from the city?.. I was just looking at the map and it seems to actually be inside The Presido district.. There are a couple of cul de sacs (Cherry and Maple), but it appears Spruce St. is the next closest avenue that might lead nearest West Pacific, via Pacific Ave. ...And Pacific Ave. is a one-way, running eastbound only....

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 03:25:18 am

I think it absolutely was Zodiac that Fouke sees. His clothing description is almost identical to what Hartnell said his attacker wore two weeks before.

I think the following happened. Fouke passes the white guy as he says he did, then bumps into Armond on Cherry St. Don says he told Armond using a slang term...."Oh Shit! That was the suspect." Now Armond in turn claims that Fouke never mentioned seeing a suspect to him at this point. Well ofcourse He would, because I believe that Armond dashed to that very intersection that Fouke told him He'd just seen a White Male turn onto a driveway. Remember, Fouke is heading toward Washington when He sees Armond, Armond is already heading toward Jackson so it makes sense that Don would tell Armond "Shit, That was the suspect!" and then Armond, based on what Don's just told him, rushes to the very intersection and driveway that Don has just mentioned. Armond gets there and, hey presto, A white guy on the driveway, just as Don had suggested the might be and just as Armond admitted there was in private and the man, He admitted, did not have a dog on the driveway.

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 05:33:27 pm

I can't remember if you asked the question Rich or I read it elsewhere but either way, recently I read a question where someone was asking how and why Did Armond decide to turn right and proceed down Jackson toward Maple? Now if you believe him (which I don't) then he simply guesses. Why He'd think the most likely route the killer has taken would be down the hill on a public sidewalk instead of the Cherry St dark and sinister looking entrance to The Presidio.....Unless obviously, Someone told Armond that the suspect had gone down the street toward Maple! That someone, Donald Fouke. Armond Didn't simply get to Cherry & Jackson and take a coin from his pocket and flip it ..... "Heads: Turn left toward Arguello, Tails: Turn right toward Maple. Drop Coin during flip: Straight on through to West Pacific at Cherry.

He went down that way because Armond was acting on the three teen witnesses at the scene who pointed down Cherry and said The White....Not Black....suspect had gone down this street seconds ago. Then, when Armond almost gets to Cherry & Jackson Intersects Fouke Rolls up as Armond is heading down toward Jackson, and not as he is on his way bk from Maple as A.P claims.

The timeline simply doesn't allow it. If Zodiac is stopped approx. 3 mins after he left the cab then Armond surely cannot have time to follow him down to Intersection of Maple, walking slowly remember, speak with Kjell, then Turn and go back up the hill toward Cherry (with No Suspect or White Male anywhere in sight) and as He turns onto Cherry here comes Fouke approaching Maple and somehow, from somewhere, A White Male has appeared as if by Magic on the sidewalk lumbering down the very same street that Armond claims he's just come down then gone back up! Bull Shit. Timeline doesn't allow it, nor would it make sense for Zodiac to only be visable to Don Fouke and not Armond Pelissetti that night when both are at the same location within 5, maybe 10 seconds of each other and Armond sees a man with a dog, who isn't anywhere to be seen when Donald arrives at this same spot,Don instead sees a white guy shuffling oddly down the street that again seems to have shuffled down past Armond without Armond Noticing him to which, Zodiac, enraged he's not being detained and questions, backtracks up the hill and waits for a second unit to come along where he'll run up some steps to try and appear as humanly suspicious as possible. I may accept this as a possibility if I am given proof that Armond was high as a kite on LSD and Fouke had just come from the Presidio where he'd been picking and consuming magic mushrooms. I can just see Fouke now approaching Maple shouting "Weeeeeeeeeeeeee *Hysterical Giggles* Weeeeeeeeee.....Ohhh Look...! Eric, Eric look at that! A White man and He's moonwalking down the sidewalk."

Armond went to that area because, like Don said, He had told Armond he'd just passed a white male turning onto a set of concrete steps that lead to a pathway to a property and that it happened at the last house on the left before Maple. Armond then dashes there and finds this same guy.

Greg

6/24/2015 03:19:48 pm

"Armond, on the other hand, freely and openly admits that it was he who encountered a White Guy saying "I asked that Gentleman had he seen anybody in the area and he told me 'No.' Well hold on, wasn't that kinda the same question that Zodiac wrote a cop had asked him that night, too?" Just watched "This is the Zodiac Speaking".. The only trouble with this is that Pelissetti says the person who he questioned was walking a dog and had no blood on him.. The question that lingers with me after watching the docu. is when Pelissetti says that he assured Toschi 'no one had contaminated the scene', but how does he know this?.. In the early part of the interview Pelissetti set off on foot to look for the perpetrator, walking up and down the streets; he was away from the taxicab for some time.. Any passerby could have walked up to that car, seeing that there was a commotion of some kind, and touched the driver side door panel, leaving the notorious fingerprints that were found.. This would also be *The most likely place a rubbernecker would touch as they peered inside to view the crime scene...

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 12:42:21 am

"The only trouble with this is that Pelissetti says the person who he questioned was walking a dog and had no blood on him."

Hi Greg. Yes Armond did say in the documentary that the white guy was older, thinner, walking a dog, and had no blood on him. However....
When Armond spoke of the incident over the phone to Mike Butterfield, a conversation that was 'accidentally recorded', Armond said that whe he got down to the corner of Jackson and Maple, he encountered a guy on a drive to a house who, he admitted, had no dog nor was on the street. In fact, Armond is alleged to have said "He wasn't doing anything, just standing there. I called this guy over and kept him around for a while."

You want my opinion why Armond hasn't admitted publically that the man didn't have a dog and was off the street in a drive? Because that man He saw and spoke to was none other tha Kjell Qvale.

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 03:13:20 am

I also have extreme trouble believing that Armond took off on foot after the suspect. He Himself said that there were innumerable acloves and parked cars for a gunman to be hiding in or behind and Armond at this point knows all to well that the suspect has already shot and killed one person, so Him going down the street on foot when he has a vehicle there makes absolutely no sense. It makes no sense if your trying to catch up with a suspect ASAP to go on foot, nor does it make sense from a personal safety POV.

I think Armond is just saying He went after the suspect on foot in direct response to what Zodiac said... "I was walking down the hill when this cop car pulled up and one of them called me over."

Well, if Armond puts himself on foot at or near Jackson and Maple, then He eliminates himself as the potential cop who stopped and spoke to Zodiac because Zodiac declared the cops He spoke with were in a vehicle.

Richard

6/24/2015 04:03:55 pm

From maps on Google yes, Spruce, then Locust. If he entered through on foot mind, he could have entered via Cherry. It all depends on what may have been blocking his way back in 1969, trees, hedges etc.
This is what Kim Rossmo said:
There are three likely locations where the Zodiac could have parked his vehicle. First, it could have been left on the street.
As the original destination was Washington Street and Maple Street, the Zodiac most likely parked between two and four blocks away, and not on Washington, Cherry, or Maple. Considering his direction of travel, the most probably area is between Jackson Street and Spruce Street and West Pacific Avenue and Locust Street. The darkly illuminated north ends of Spruce or Locust would have been good possibilities. The second likely location would have been on West Pacific Avenue, which has several parking spaces on its south side. This area can be accessed on foot by climbing down a short drop from the north end of Cherry, Maple, Spruce, Locust, and parallel streets. This escape plan would have put a barrier between the Zodiac and responding San Francisco police vehicles. Even more effective would have been to park at the south end of Portola Street or MacArthur Avenue in the Presidio. By walking across West Pacific Avenue from the north end of Spruce Street, and through the Julius Kahn Playground, the Zodiac could have quickly reached his parked vehicle – a distance from West Pacific Avenue of about 200 yards. He could then have driven north through the Presidio (which despite being a U.S. military reservation in 1969 was not a secure site) and over the Golden Gate Bridge. This escape route would have quickly put him out of reach of responding San Francisco police units.

West Pacific seems to me the sensible choice from Cherry, but if he never took this option, maybe his pre-planning wasn't that extensive and could throw doubt on how familiar he was with this area.

Richard

6/24/2015 04:28:15 pm

Greg from Facebook asked me a question, but I remember you investigated 3712 Jackson Street.
Greg:Has anyone ever inquired as to who lived at 3712 Jackson?.. The person who ducked into that address could have been the homeowner.. Or, more scandalously, what if Zodiac was ducking into *His Own* address at 3712?.. I don't discount the possibility that Zodiac might have been walking home.. If he had a wating getaway car near the crime scene, I think it would have been mere yards away, rather than blocks.. When you consider how short a drive it is from where he was picked up at Mason-Geary to Washington-Cherry, it translates to a walk that would probably take no more than 15 minutes.. The fact that he makes a right turn onto Jackson is even somewhat telling of his potential destination.. This right turn (eastbound) is even in the same direction as the Anza Vista district from where he mailed letters.. I've come to believe more and more that he lived in San Fran rather than Vallejo or Benicia.. For me, it's likely he lived somewhere in the vicinity between Mason-Geary and Washington-Cherry, with his right turn onto Jackson, as well as the Anza Vista mailing points being tell-tale hints about his habits and probable homebase...

Richard: What did you find out Alex !

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 12:49:18 am

Rich I have researched the occupants of that address and it is very interesting to say the least!

The owners were Fred Bloch and his wife Helen Bloch. Now Helen was a juvenile Court Judge (and Armond later went on to become a Juvanile Officer.) But more interistingly, Helen had a brother who fits the Z description who had a property on West Pacific Avenue, literally right in front of the Julius Kahn Park.I shall not name her Brother as He's still alive and prominent in San Fran. He use to be Director of one the big opera theatres in San Fran.

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 12:56:12 am

Rich if you don't already know his name, Helen's Brother, and you would like to know so you can research him, email me and I'll give you it in private. He's still alive last time I checked so you have to be careful what you say in regards to him because He is a very successful business man in the Bay Area.

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 01:02:51 am

Oh and have a guess where Helen's Brother's business was and still is located? I won't name the street itself but suffice is it to say it is 7 minutes on foot from Mason & Geary.

Alex Lewis

6/26/2015 01:16:40 am

You want the address of Helen's Brother? You can likely find his name via it....

3477 West Pacific Avenue. Look it up on google maps street view to see how close it is to JK Park.

Richard

6/26/2015 06:28:09 pm

If the Zodiac Killer had a getaway vehicle in the area, east of the Jackson/Cherry intersection, if he had done any pre-planning the choice of heading along Jackson Street seems an unlikely choice, as you alluded heading onward from Cherry straight to West Pacific Avenue makes more sense. I don't know where you stand on Zodiac either living in Jackson Street or nearby, but it seems rather odd to commit a murder just one block from your house, it's just asking for trouble, especially if you are drenched in blood. But if Zodiac's initial destination was Washington and Maple as called in, then the fact this intersection was not the final resting place of the taxicab, makes it logical the Zodiac would backtrack east from Cherry, to return to the destination he had probably always intended. ie; the getaway vehicle at the top of Maple or West Pacific Avenue. Or if the residence theory holds water, then 3477 WPA. The only reason if the Zodiac was travelling on Jackson I can see, is an overgrowth of trees or bushes at the access point at the top of Cherry made him think there was no access or somebody may have been in the area at the time, that made him decline that option.

Alex Lewis

7/6/2015 04:11:32 am

I was thinking the other day Rich about Z's very precise '3 mins after I left the cab' comment. It's strange He would word it like that to me. Maybe I would expect something like "Not long after I left the cab" or "Shortly after" but He's very specific with "about 3 mins after."
I was thinking about it and I wondered if He knew it was around 3 mins because He had carried out trial runs timing how long it took from the Intersection of Wash. and Cherry to Jax and Maple area?

If He had, this would explain how He knew it was approx. 3 mins after leaving the cab because He'd times himself previously and at the point of being stopped He knew this was around 3 minutes time from cab to that point.
I started a whole thread on ZKS once where I lay out my idea or theory that 'The Bus Bomb' letter is, like so much with this killer, not what it seems to be at face value and is actually a description of Pacific Heights event. I'll try and give you an idea what I mean. . .

In the bus bomb letter Zodiac makes several comments that are, to me anyway, subtle hints to something other than what He appears to be saying on the surface:

"the system checks out from one end to the other in my tests." This is suggestive of Himself having carried out test runs of the crime so to speak.

"What you do notknow is whether the death machine is at the sight or whether it is being storedin my basement for future use." Again, to me, He is giving us a huge clue here by telling us he was out of sight in Presidio Heights and hidden in a basement of a house close by.

"I think you do not have the manpower to stopthis one by continually searching the road sides looking for this thing." Here He is making reference to the cops searching the roadside (Along W.P Avenue) for him and He's stating He doesn't think they have enough man power to catch him.

There are other comments He makes in this letter that seem to imply something other than what it seems.

" I would have sent you pictures but youwould be nasty enough to trace them back to developer + then to me, so I shalldescribe my masterpiece to you" The assumption is He's referring to a photo developer, but I believe He's referring to a land developer. He is saying if He sent photos of the basement where he was hidden on the night they would get a land/property developer to discover which house this basement was in.

"Will run for approx. 1 year" Is this a reference to His (Zodiac's) killing spree?

The above is just a theory, one which could be bang on or way off.

Alex Lewis link

6/26/2015 11:04:16 pm

Where do I stand regarding Zodiac living on or close to Jackson or having access to a property there somewhere close that he may have been house sitting for for the owners for example.......I just don't know to be honest Rich....I am on the fence on that one. Stuck on the fence in a mash of barbed wire like a snared clueless Welsh Idiot lol.

Na but serious Rich, I honestly don't know if he went into a house, if he himself owned or rented a property around that area, I just know the assumptions I do feel safe making such as agreeing with Chief Of Inspectors Martin Lee's opinion that there is abslutelty no way Zodiac was in or on the ground of JK and/or The Presidio. I know, or at least believe that You and I may seem to differ on the possibility of a waiting get-away vehicle left somewhere in the area. I just don't think He would rick leaving his own car, that can be tracked back to himself via the DMV if anyone jots down his licence either as he is making his escape or simply as an odd out of place vehicle sitting in the middle of a street for the evening right up to, but not beyond, the cabbie's murder. Be too obvious for me. That's how The Son of Sam's liberty came to an end after He left his vehicle waiting in a street close to a planned shooting. He executed the attack, ran back to his waiting getaway car, and was observed by a witness getting into the car and speeding away but more importantly, before he pulled away, saw sitting under the windscreen wiper a parking ticked that was issued linking him and/or his vehicle to the very block where the shooting occured and that's how they ended up catching him.

I mean if we are cynical for a moment we could ask "If He had a car to drive away from the area and escape, then He could have just parked on West Pacific somewhere and booked or called a cab to pick him up at some address on West P Av. or The Golf Club at the summit of West P Av and just get in and shoot the driver instantly then exit, walk to your close by waiting car that has been there only 15 minutes with nobody seeing it or the licence.

Why Drive to Pacific Heights, Leave your car there, then walk or get a cab back to the Theatre District, exit. Stand there for a minute or two, then hail another Cab to drive back to Pacific Heights to then shoot the driver at that moment. I mean, if He's left his own car in the area then He likely got a cab from the Presidio to Union Square Area so why not just shoot that driver that has turned up to take you back to Mason & Geary vicinity?

Greg

6/28/2015 03:31:38 pm

"You want my opinion why Armond hasn't admitted publically that the man didn't have a dog and was off the street in a drive? Because that man He saw and spoke to was none other tha Kjell Qvale."

Thanks for the replies Richard and Alex.. Alex -based on your comments, do you think Kjell Qvale was the Zodiac killer?.. Why would Pelissetti and co. be protecting his identity? Because he was a wealthy, influential businessman in SF?.. Not sure what to make about Pelisseitti's story(ies) if indeed there are multiple, conflicting versions of it which have changed over the years.. I've only seen him speak in the "Zodiac Speaking" documentary, so had just that to go by and was taking his words at face value.. I don't know a great deal about the Qvale's, but according to wikipedia the elder brother grew up in Norway before moving to the US at about the age of 10.. I'd suspect that he would've retained an accent throughout his life, and perhaps this would have been detected if it was he who made the Zodiac 'brag' calls to police.. My grandfather grew up in Norway and never rid himself of the accent, so I can somewhat speak from firsthand knowledge that the Norwegian twang is infamously difficult to shake..
Another point worth mentioning is that the teenage window witnesses rendered a composite sketch that basically coincides with the one Fouke and Zelms came up with, so it would be my hunch that the person observed inside the cab who presumably committed the murder was the same man seen by Fouke / Zelms walking along Jackson St. a few minutes later... Thanks again for the interesting articles and comments...

Alex Lewis

6/29/2015 08:36:21 am

Don said in an interview (link to this interview i'll post at the end of this comment so you can see it yourself) that "Sinse we were looking for a Negro Male Adult we proceeded on Jackson St toward Arguello continuing our search. As we arrived at Arguello Street the initial suspect description was changed to A White Male and believing this person (the one he's just driven past) was possibly the suspect we entered the presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue."

Now in this version here Don seem to be implying He never even turned onto Cherry street at all and instead continued past Cherry to the next and final Intersection of Arguello Street and as He gets there the description is changed to A White Male and He turns right at arguello intersection and onto West Pacific. So which is it Don, did you pass the white guy and continue on Jackson toward and then arrive at Arguello Street or did you not arrive at Arguello Street because you had turned left at the previous Intersection of Cherry?

Armond also has a different claim in another interview for Cold Case Files: Zodiac' because in the Documentary 'This is The Z spkng' Armond says "He (Don) told me He had stopped and asked someone had they seen anybody go by and that the person said 'No.'
But in 'Cold Case Files: Zodiac' Armond now states "Another Unit stopped someone, A White Guy, and asked that person had they seen anyone and the person said 'Yes, A man just ran into the Presidio." Well again, Which is it? Did the guy you say Don told you he spoke with reply with a simple 'No' or with 'Yes, a man just ran into the presidio?'

Here is the link to Crimes o t Century interview with Fouke, ff to 1 minute 18 seconds and liten to what Fouke says: https://youtu.be/_A3kD-j25jQ

Alex

7/3/2015 11:10:21 am

Greg, you asked: "Alex -based on your comments, do you think Kjell Qvale was the Zodiac killer?.. Why would Pelissetti and co. be protecting his identity? Because he was a wealthy, influential businessman in SF?.."

Do I think Kjell was Zodiac? At one point I was almost convinced He was, yes. However, to say Qvale was The Zodiac (assuming there was only One man doing the killing) is to overlook the descriptions of Zodiac at Berryessa and Blue Rock Springs. Hartnell said the guy was at least 200lbs and bulky looking but added because of the type of jacket he wore He may have simply only appeared to be overweight. So you can get around that if you want to advocate Kjell as Zodiac but won't you can't explain away is the berryessa witnesses and, more importantly, Mike Mageau's description of the suspects face being 'Large round face.' It's easy to add some extra layers and baggy garments to appear larger and heavier than you really are but to change you facial structure and shape? Na, not even if Z wore a disguise would I think it likely.

Was Kjell involved in others ways? Well He was out there lurking on a driveway and for a man who's simply a potential witness He doesn't half seem to want to keep his name and Zodiac as far apart as possible. Why, if your simply a witness who has a real legitimate reason for being in the area anyway because it's where you live? Why would Armond create a Dog and on street encounter with Qvale when it was on A Drive with no Pooch anywhere in the vicinity?

See if Qvales just a witness then you'd assume that he'd be happy to assist police and his name should, by letter of the law, appear in Armonds Post crime report of the incident. It doesn't. Why? Have to ask Pelissetti, but I don't think He'd relish chatting to you or I about it.

Richard

6/29/2015 09:41:16 pm

Yes Alex their recollections vary from one interview to another and I think the word recollections is key. Memories are not like a video recorder, people in any eyewitness case remember certain details and the mind fills in the blanks. This is what I believe is happening here. Often when people are asked questions about a crime, there is an element of wanting to please the interviewer, so sketchy details they recall is often interpreted as fact and eyewitness recollection is notoriously unreliable. I don't believe anyone knew who Zodiac was and he was being protected, but I do believe they are two men who are being interviewed nearly 40 years on from the crime and such has this case caught the public imagination down the years, they have become 'mini celebrities' being so integral and close to the case, have in all likelihood expanded on their recollections to the point that fact blurs into fiction.
However the two stories of Donald Fouke do fly in the face of each other; You either continue on to Arguello Street or you turn south onto Cherry, you can't do both. But another interesting thing I noticed in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' was this. Donald Fouke entered Jackson Street under the impression he was looking for a black male, when he realized it was a white male he sped off toward Cherry. If he realized it was a white male and not the supposed suspect, why did he have immense powers of recollection from a three quarter length jacket with elastic at the waist, and on the cuffs, he had a crew cut, rusk coloured pleated trousers, engineering type boots, tan in colour, low cut shoe. If as he stated he didn't think it was the suspect how did he make an effort to bother with such detail as to look at his boots. This was a 5 to 15 seconds top as he claimed and if it was well lit as Pelissetti stated, he would have seen him to be a white male from a distance, so the need to harness the detail he described seems unnecessary. And if the Zodiac was covered in blood as we suspect, then noticing tan engineering boots, but no blood seems odd. Also he would later recollect the 3712 stairwell incident, copious detail when it was apparently a white male and somebody you were not looking for.

Richard

6/29/2015 09:58:17 pm

What is highly incredible is Donald Fouke stating he never put the 3712 Jackson Street incident in the report, because he assumed the white male didn't live in the neighbourhood, stating an "upper-middle class neighbourhood, I don't know if he lived there or not, let the inspectors follow through". This obviously is contradictory He "never put it in the report, because he never thought about it in the report". Followed by when asked about the 3712 incident " I thought that's what I wrote in the scratch". You can tell he was caught in an awkward moment at 1.28.20 into the video.

Alex Lewis

7/3/2015 01:06:29 pm

Exactly Rich, when you tell the truth see as you and I know, you don't need a good memory or to remember what it was you said last time to the question again being asked now because the truth never changes and is today as it will be tomorrow. If you lie on the other hand, you need to remember what it was you made up previously because you end up contradicting yourself otherwise in mismatching answers or accounts.

Fouke seeing the white male last approach a house and not bothering to go back and storm the grounds and the property if no answer comes from knocking just further advances the idea that He knew it was Kjell Qvale who approached the house and I think Don is genuinely honest when He said "I didn't think about it in the report (Because He knew the guy was Qvale so He's not someone you'd consider) because I assumed He (suspect) didn't live there (and He knew that Kjell did live there). I don't know if he did live there or didn;t live there (Now He may have reason to suspect Kjell actually was the shooter, He (offender) may have lived there.

Also Don says "Seeing that it was a white male, in an affluent neighbourhood, waking along the street, we didn't think it was the suspect."

Now to me this is as close to an admission that there was No NMA broadcast incorrectly initially and Don is suggesting, maybe without even being aware He's doing so, that 'Seeing who it was walking along the street in this affluent area, we didn't think He would be our suspect." In other words, because it was Kjell Qvale, a White Male in an Afluent area where He would belong, we let him go as we assumed he couldn't be our guy.

I don't think He's so sure Kjell is or was not their guy today. And neither is Armond sure, with his 'I saw a man walking his dog that didn't exist, I asked that 'GENTLEMAN' exactly what Zodiac said a cop asked him in his Late Nov. Letter and He tld me 'No'

Alex Lewis

7/6/2015 07:05:54 am

"What is highly incredible is Donald Fouke stating he never put the 3712 Jackson Street incident in the report, because he assumed the white male didn't live in the neighbourhood."

This is why Rich Don must have been aware of who the white guy was or else, if He isn't, then His first, well, the only reaction would be to speed back to that Intersection and put out your own radio call of "ALL Units suspect is at or inside 3712 Jackson, All units respond" would be the only course of action to take otherwise what Don has done implies:

He observed male matching suspect description approach a residence and, even though He knows there is a chance the suspect could have gained entry and is holding the occupants hostage to hide out from police, Don ignores this and decides to direct half of The San Fran Police Dpts. Patrol officers around onto West Pacific? Likely? No chance at all because This offender has shown already He will not only shoot someone for, what they believe is a robbery, but He will shoot to kill. If Don didn't know the guy was Qvale and it was simply a nobody He didn't recognize then to not go bk to 3712 is risking the lives of all inside that house which is something any Patrol Officer with 1, maybe 2 brain-cells, would never do.

He ignored the residence and returning to it because like he said in 07's Doc. "I didn't think about it in the report because I assumed He (The suspect) didn't live in the Neighbourhood." and of course, He knew that the Guy he's just seen Did live in the Neighbourhood.

Alex

7/1/2015 07:15:28 am

I've said the same Rich about his recalling in such detail the clothing of the suspect. He states "Five, ten, fifteen seconds from first spotting him to passing him" and He remembers all that detail about someone who, as you point out, shouldn't have even been worth remembering as He's the wrong color.

I've said before that I really am sceptical of their claim of an incorrect NMA broadcast ever happening. Go back and look in the immediate post crime reports and nowhere will you find mention that the responding units had been given an initial incorrect suspect description. It's only when The Zodiac himself writes about a month after the incident 'PS 2 cops pulled a goof' do we hear the story of a Black Male description having been broadcast and when you think about it, isn't that exactly what you'd expect them to say after Zodiac has publically 'rubbed their face in the boo-boo's'? I think it was damagage limitation time for the SFPD after they read Zodiac had said he was stopped and spoken with. Imagine how the DPT would look if it were discovered they simply let a white guy walk away knowing the suspect was white? Theres just no way they could admit this as the public outcry would be unthinkable! So, if we simply say that we were told by some idiotic dispatcher (who, unlike slover and Slaight) has never been nemed or identified that the suspect to BOTL for was Black then this will save face and we can explain away why it was we never apprehended the white guy.

I think they knew Rich they were looking for a white guy mate, I honestly do but they reason they let 'Their' white guy go was because of who that white guy was..... Kjell Qvale! Not just a rich car dealer, but full member of the Bohemian Club, a club with Richard Nixon and Ronald Regan as members to name but two. A 'who's who' of the most rich, influential people in the United States of America. That's why I think Don remembers such detail as the elasticated waist and cuffs, because He knew the suspect was White.

Mike link

3/5/2016 09:34:13 am

Kevin,

What is your source for Qvale being in the Bohemian Club?

Mike link

3/5/2016 09:36:59 am

Sorry, meant Alex!

Mike

Alex Lewis

3/6/2016 02:32:56 am

Wiki-Leaks published full member list and Kjell and Bruce Qvale are members. It's a club for the the Rich and powerful, Ronald Reagan & Richard Nixon and the a club for the most powerful in the Business World. I have no and can't tell you I know He ever went there and spent any time, but He is a member, or was as the case may be.

I mean Reagan called the Grove, and these are not my words & I'm repeating Reagan's claim that, quote: "Bohemian Grove is Gayest place on the Planet." End quote.
Again, not wishing to offend anyone or seem Homophobic by such a comment, it's a direct quote from Nixon after He spent time at the grove.

Alex Lewis

3/6/2016 02:47:16 am

Confusing myself here now trying to multi-task so to clarify, it was Richard Nixon who made the comment of it being the gayest place on the Planet

I don't know but it is an 'All Men Club' and up to a few years ago when the feminist's started shouting discrimination, the Grove made no secret of their Secret Society being a all male member club with Women barred from membership.

I mean in the Grove they have a 40 ft tell wooden Owl called 'Moloch.' They dress up and have a 'Cremation of Care' ceremony. The Symbolic throwing away, discarding, killing the ability to care or be empathetic, in front of Moloch, the 40 ft Owl that every Holiday Camp has. You couldn't move in Butlins Holiday Camps for the 50 ft Vampire Bat Statutes, called Bat of Beelzebub. Very Normal that, hmmmm!

Richard

7/3/2015 07:02:00 pm

It is very strange like you said both Nancy Slover and Dave Slaight were mentioned, but this mystery dispatcher remains just that. If the Zodiac had 'bumped' into the police, any officer worth their salt would not simply let a man close by the scene wander off after saying 'he saw a man waving a gun'. I cannot think for the life of me mishearing White male to Black male in the time it took from receiving the call from the three teenagers, to the time it took to dispatch the call to officers in the area, which would have been a matter of seconds, minute tops. It doesn't even sound the same. Something definitely stinks about the timeline, the ever changing accounts and the radio dispatch. I too lean towards there never being a description given out of a BMA, and like you said it was to cover up a 'goof', that clearly the Zodiac Killer hadn't forgot when he mailed the Bus Bomb Letter a month later, highlighting the passage, saying "must print in paper". I know he liked mocking the police, so this was easily dismissed by police as a lie, when in fact he knew the real truth and made an issue to have it printed.

Alex Lewis

7/6/2015 07:29:17 am

This dispatchers name/identity is not known to this day because, in my opinion, they are rather like Z's other one time persona....A Phantom. Nobody in the control room took a call and hears 'WHITE MALE' and 7 seconds later broadcasts to all units 'SUSPECT TO BOLO for is A BLACK MALE'...Its almost laughable if it weren't so serious. 'The suspect is.....that word that sounds almost identical to 'White', ohhh what it is what is it?? Ahh, Yes, that's it..BLACK.'

And because nobody made this blunder, nobody will be willing to say they were this criminally incompetent, bumbling dispatcher. Go ask SFPD can we interview the on call dispatcher who spoke to the teens so we can question this person about the 911 call see how far you get. In fact, I think I shall file a FOIA for the Dispatcher in question to be released and if not their name, I'm going to apply for a report made or transcript thereof, that was made regarding the reportee/s and dispatch chat log.

Dear FOIA Officer: This is The Welsh Chap Speaking!

I have grown rather angry with the Police for their telling lies about dispatchers so I shall change the way I go about finding out.

The lies will never wash with me because I am too clever for them.

Then I shall demand....I mean, Request the release of the person who took the call and/or a report/transcript of the call and immediate dispatch alert.

I shall finish with: If I do not see this obtain a successful response I shall do something Nasty and file another 50 FOIA's, which you know I am capable of doing!
Me - Relentless S.F FOIA - Calling emergency meeting.

Alex Lewis

7/6/2015 05:30:57 pm

"and like you said it was to cover up a 'goof', that clearly the Zodiac Killer hadn't forgot when he mailed the Bus Bomb Letter a month later, highlighting the passage, saying "must print in paper."

I think Zodiac was fully expecting to read about his being seen and/or spoken to by the SFPD that night. After 3 weeks without even a hint of a mention I think Zodiac knew they were keeping it hush hush because of their incompetence to an almost criminally negligent proportion. So, Zodiac himself, realizing public confidence in the SFPD's competence is at serious risk and He realizing they are keeping He and their late night rendezvouz on Jackson Quiet, He decides that that won't do and The public have a right to be told and He is going to tell them!

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 05:12:08 am

What is important to keep in mind when we speak of Kjell and his being in or near the scene that night is that from the perspective of Don and Armond, and this I do say to their credit or benefit of the doubt, that they in the initial few hours after the crime were not even thinking of or suspect involvement of anyone calling himself Zoidiac.

This was, as far as they could determine from the scene, A Cabbie robbery gone bad with fatal shot fired so if I'm a cop working under this assumption as I search the surrounding area directly after the crime happened and I happen across a Middle aged man who lives and owns a huge mansion down the street and is the owner of a bank balance that shows multiple millions of dollars in his name, then this man I would likely make an assumption on the spot, will not be responsible for killing my cabbie in a botched theft/robbery with the loot being a couple of lousy dollars. Kjell wouldsimply have absolutely no need to rob anyone for money, He's a multi millionaire.

They don't know this shooting of the cabbie has absolutely nothing to do with a desire or genuine motive of robbery and that the responsible is actually a serial murderer. Had they known this on the night then maybe they'd have considered or realised that it was not a robbery but a murder made to look like a botched robbery.

We have to look at it from all angles so in all fairness to Don and Armond, when they encounter Qvale He's a millionaire several times over and their suspect is a man desperate enough to steal a few dollars from a cabbie. Maybe after Zodiac announced it was by his hand the cabbie was slain did the patrol men see the bigger and more realistic picture of who the suspect could have been because now they know the motive was not theft of money, this allows anyone to become a suspect. But by the time they realize this, it's too late.

Alex Lewis link

7/6/2015 04:45:36 pm

But serious though Rich, Kjell's printing is, to my non-professionally trained eye anyway, identical to Z's. If Kjell was writing the letters then that would be why He was out on his drive or a neighbours drive waiting for His 'Colleague' Zodiac to walk down the street at the arranged time (likely 10.00pm) and hand over the torn swatches of shirt so that Kjell may write the letter and insert the 'undeniable evidence' that the writer is the person who Killed Paul.

If you can get The Public and, more importantly, Law Enforcement to fully believe or at least assume that, because of the shirt swatches accompanying the latest letter that the writer was and is the man who shot Paul then you've created joiner where none exists and if, as Law Enf. publically stated they were, eliminating suspects based on handwriting then the Zodiac could, and very likely was, sat opposing Toschi in an interview room and let go due to his and 'The Killers' handwriting not matching.

I tell you what I have long wished I could do, is sit down and ask Don face to face what it is He felt was so concerning that night that He felt the need to misrepresent the facts regarding the suspect.

So much time has elapsed now approaching half a Century so you'd assume that Don would simply come clean. Unless He won't or can't do so even now because Bettye Harden's comment is spot on when she wrote "When I write the true ending it will shake the Earth."

Richard

7/6/2015 07:39:29 pm

The good thing for Fouke and Pelissetti, is that Zodiac can easily be dismissed and labelled a madman, whereas police officers are meant to be taken at face value as the 'beacons of honesty'. It reminds me of politicians, when somebody gives you a difficult question you don't like, go on the offensive, ridicule and poke fun at the person and get everybody laughing with you, attempting to make the person look like a clown and avoiding the question completely. Wise people see through this, but many are easily fooled. An ever changing story from a defendant is effectively an admission of guilt, something we are seeing in Fouke's ever changing stories. I hear many people say, memories fade, they are recent recollections in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' and the ones given closer to October 11th 1969 are the most accurate. Believe me traumatic events like this should be stamped in stone, after all the Zodiac killings were as big as it got back then, besides I would at least expect the police officer to remember which road he went down. Like you said Donald Fouke digs a deeper hole every time he speaks. So like you said sees a man heading up a stairwell, leading to a house, 3712 Jackson Street, but does not return to it once the description is supposedly changed from BMA to WMA. You really cannot be serious. I never really gave the dispatcher's 'mistake' much thought before Alex, but what you said makes perfect sense, it's a pile of hogwash. I have no conspiracy theories on any other of the Zodiac crimes or even on this one, I like to remain neutral, but this supposed BMA nonsense seemingly is accepted without question. I believe the police made mistakes that night and the 'cover up' has just exacerbated the problem. The problem is when one police officer gives a dodgy account, it calls into question real accounts from other police officers, as the timeline is thrown out and in the end you fail to see who is giving the correct version.

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 02:59:36 am

" An ever changing story from a defendant is effectively an admission of guilt."

Or at the very least a sign of having something to hide and keep concealed. Any Judge in a Courtroom along with A Jury opperate n the basis of if the witness is caught lying one time, that's all it takes, then every single thing that witness testifies to thereafter is not to be believed or at the very least, highly questionable. If A Judge finds you to be giving false testimony on the stand no only will He treat this person as a hostile and/or untrustworthy witness, He'll also hold that lying witness in contempt of Court for lying under Oath.

Qvale may have threatened to file suit against anyone publically naming him as a suspect in the Z case but He never would have gone through with that if He were involved in my opinion for the simple reason of; Once you go into Court and enter your account of something it is then and forever will be on the record as your official account. If He is lying about His presence there that night He isn't going to dash to file litigation against you or I because He knows we would likely ask the questions of him that He isn't going to want to answer truthfully yet nor would He wish to be exposed as liar especially while under oath in a lagal cilvil battle.

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 03:46:00 am

"I hear many people say, memories fade, they are recent recollections in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' and the ones given closer to October 11th 1969 are the most accurate. Believe me traumatic events like this should be stamped in stone."

Could not agree with that statement more Rich, totally agree with you. Sure, the memory of falling off one's bike as a child and cuting your arm or going to see a movie with an ex Girlfriend without being able to recall what film you actually watched on that visit is human nature. The Brain is designed in such a way that it lets go of, or doesn't remember the specifics of what you did throughout your entire life because if it did we'd short circit and be unable to cope with such massive amounts of stored files and data in the vault of the Brain. So, what tends to happen is the Brain will store the info that it wants to remember with specifics very seldomly. It's usually such things as 'Worst pain ever felt by you' it will recall what caused that pain because it wants to aviod a repeat. Such things as First real kiss for example, the place and girl I can still remember to this day in my own case because these are significant and memorable events.

The same way that running into The Most wanted Citizen still outstanding In the States at the time would, without doubt, be burned into the long term memory filing drawers of the Brain. You don't start to forget or become hazy about the basics and that is for sure, never mind the specifics. You don't forget what street your on, intersection your at when you see someone, become unsure if you've been down to Jax and Mple then come back up as you see a fellow responding cruizer wth Fouke at the helm or if you actuall see this Cop as your making your initial pursuit of suspect just having started to head down Cherry yourself.

What Armond is doing Rich is completely obvious. He's well aware that both himself and Fouke's versions don't coincide and never have, He knows He's stated one time that Don told him the white guy told Don 'Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio' and the next time claims something ttally different in that Don now says, He recalls, the white guy simply responded "No." So Armond, quite sensibly seems to have decided that rather than stick his foot in his mouth again or dig himself an even deeper hole to get out of by saying something else that is either inconsistent with a previous claim or know and can be proven untrue that He will simply declare His advancing years and old age have made the events of that night very unreliable in his own head.

'C O P O U T' Mr P, Cop Out!

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 11:39:30 pm

" I never really gave the dispatcher's 'mistake' much thought before Alex, but what you said makes perfect sense, it's a pile of hogwash."

Cheers Rich, it's always nice to have someone see where your coming from on a certain issue or circumstance. But yeah Rich, like you alluded to, this NMA or BMA initail flawed broadcast by some mysterious dispatcher is seemingly accepted without hesitation by the vast majority and I myself don't understand why when the rest of the account these same two man give are constantly contradictory and even outright non-truths ("Subject was last observed heading North on Maple Street" load of faff for example)

It's not just their own unrelaibility in what they say that makes the NMA broadcast claim questionable, but to suggest that you pass a White Male who instantly puts his head down & then turns onto some steps and heads toward a front door when he sees you coming up the street toward him (thus, doing everything in his power to appear as absolutely suspicious as possible by first hiding his face then turning his back and going away from them) and 30 seconds later your told "Oh no the suspect isn't Black Don, He's a white guy with glasses and a crew cut" and then, knowing now that not only have you just passed a white guy but that very white guy happened to be sporting a crew cut with HR Glasses that you would then not bother to go back to where you know He just seconds ago was? Absolutely ludicrous because He could be inside the home and life be in extreme danger.

Not only that Rich but If you and I were cops and we were involved in this very search and incident and you said to me "You see I passed a guy matching the very description but didn't know that this was the description until 20 or 30 seconds later. He saw me coming, turned onto a residence pathway and walked toward the front door when I last saw him. I didn't bother going back to that house though because I had made an assumption you see that He didn't live there" I'd look at you stupid and my reply would be "Are you serious? You riked the lives of everyone potentially in that property because you had made an assumption?"

Neither you nor I are police Officers Rich but we don't need Law Enforcement trainng to know that if you see a guy who is, for all intent and purposes, the guy your after to arrest going into Tesco's for example, then it would be quite a good idea if the first place to go and conduct a search for him would be Tescos.

Again see, Don in his scenario has given the entire responding colleagues of his false and innaccurate information to act on by stating that the suspect went down Maple. You've now misinformed and misdirected the entire search effort to a place you know that the suspect was not heading when you last observed him.

Richard

7/6/2015 08:22:24 pm

Good luck with FOIA request for the dispatchers name or the transcript of events, I think they will have been 'lost'. But if you are going to try, get the real time of the phone call received by the dispatcher from the three teenagers.
"2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again"
Zodiac was rather accurate as you stated when he claimed 3 minutes, as this is the walking time, but then he goes on to say the cops pulled him over and asked him if he had seen anything in the last 5/10 minutes. Let's say Zodiac left Washington and Cherry at 9.56 pm, the cops that pulled him over, would have done so at 9.59 pm. If they had been aware of the crime at least 5/10 minutes, Zodiac should have left the Washington and Cherry intersection at 9.49 to 9.54 pm, as the kids saw him exiting up Cherry and rang in. The distance from Presidio Avenue, where Fouke an Zelms were, to 3712 Jackson is approx 90 seconds. Pelissetti claimed he received the dispatchers call at 9.55 pm, so one would assume Fouke an Zelms received this initial dispatch also at 9.55 pm, therefore adding 90 seconds, they must have been at 3712 Jackson at no later than 9.57 pm. But factoring in the 5/10 minutes, according to Zodiac, meant they had already been searching at least 5 minutes, but it is now only 90 seconds after the got the dispatchers call, not 5 to 10 minutes. Five minutes earlier would have meant, considering they should have been at 3712 Jackson at 9.57 pm, they would have been informed of the crime at least by 9.52 pm. But at 9.52 pm, Pelissetti hadn't even received the call. He said 9.55 pm. And at 9.52 pm Zodiac would still have been at Washington and Cherry in the taxicab. If Fouke and Zelms had received the call at 9.52 pm and travelled to Washington and Cherry from where they were in Presidio Avenue, they should have arrived at least by 9.55 pm, but they supposedly received the call at this time. The timeline breaks down again. I hope this makes sense.

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 04:50:22 am

Well lets put it this way, One man that Don and Armond would do well to take a leaf out of his book is David Slaight. That Man, a Sworn and Trusted Officer in Napa said for cld case files documentary the following "I answered the phone and I said 'Napa Police Dpt. Officer Slaight, and the voice on the other end said 'I want to report a murder..... No, a Double murder!...." etc etc.

Then, Fast Forward a couple of decades and we arrive at 2007's "This is the Zodiac Speaking" Documentary in which Dave stated "I answered the phone and said Officer Slaight, Napa Police Dpt... there was a male voice on the other end and He said 'I want to report a Murder.... No, A double murder.." Etc and gives the exact same account of the call with no concern or excuse of decades having passed and his memory gone bad.

Clear to both You & I why this is Rich, it's because David Slaight is telling the factual truth and therefor He does not have to think and/or try to remember what He said last time that Zodiac had said because Zodiac said what He said, and that will remain unalterable and unchanging within the memory of David. His recalling of the call is always the same, He tells us what He said, then what the suspect said and in what type of tone He said it. David Slaight did not ever attempt to add to, or take from, the actual conversation He had with the suspect nor did he try and distort anything about the subsequent response after taking such a call. Dave just simply tells it as it is and happened.
In Dave's obituary one constant that kept being said of him was his desire and willingness to help others and after retiring from Napa PD He could be found every day down at Napa's hospital volunteering his time to help those that needed it. I said once somewhere that when Zodiac dialed Napa Sheriff's Office He got through to a Man that was the Yang to his Ying, The complete oposite of characters and personalities with one caring nothing for others and putting bullets into people because He can with ruthless evil and without remorse and the other, a man who spent His entire working life serving and protecting others before retiring to help the sick and terminal with his own free time.
Slaight is a man I admire not just because of his involvement in the case with a truthful and consistent account but, because He was just an all round caring and nice guy who'd go out of his own way to help someone that may have needed it.

Richard

7/7/2015 06:51:55 am

Nice comments Alex. Much appreciated all round.

Alex Lewis

10/31/2015 11:18:45 pm

Speaking of Freedom of Information Act, have they responded to you request yet?

I think I showed you the latest response A3 Sized envelope I got that had senders address followed by the addressee's

'U.S Dpt. of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation. July 28, 2015 via U.S Air Mail from Zip 22602.
MR. WELSH CHAPPIE
C/O MR. ALEX LEWIS
MY ADDRESS.....etc

I am going to go all Qvale on them and file a lawsuit against both the Dpt. of Justice and then the FBI for defamation of an impeccable character, which will be dismissed immediately on the grounds no evidence of such a character exists. Hehe

But serious have heard anything, or have you got Request specific reference No. yet to check the progress of that specific FOIA?

Richard

7/7/2015 12:31:44 am

Armond Pelissetti claimed that Donald Fouke had said he stopped a man and Fouke claimed he didn't. I believe Donald Fouke did stop someone, it was a white male, hence the detail he was able to give, including the address 3712 Jackson. Also Fouke had just driven past the subject and focused on the mans clothing and eyes, remember he said "I remember seeing his eyes, I couldn't tell you what colour they were, it was dark enough his eyes were concealed, but hadn't he supposedly got his head down and was turned into 3712. The amount of detail and the description belies a longer than 5 to 15 seconds encounter. Also Zodiac is describing an encounter with two cops, which we know was 3 minutes walking distance from the taxicab, this is where Fouke and Zelms should have been at the exact corresponding time. Hypothetically lets take the time to be 9.54 pm when Zodiac exited Washington and Cherry, at the 3 minute mark 9.57 pm, he is at 3712 Jackson Street. Pelissetti, Peda, Fouke and Zelms get the dispatchers call at 9.55 pm. Then Fouke from Presidio Avenue takes 90 s to 2 mins to get to 3712 Jackson, putting them there at roughly 9.57 pm, tying exactly with what time Zodiac should have been there. The question is was the Zodiac aware of the fact that two police officers were travelling on Jackson Street, when he wrote the Bus Bomb Letter stating "the cops pulled a goof". Had this detail been covered in the newspapers prior to November 9th, if not it would have to be a lucky guess on Zodiac's part to have detailed an encounter that just happened to tally with the time Fouke and Zelms should have been there. Assuming he had no access to official police reports, it would suggest the Zodiac was telling the truth.

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 03:19:23 am

Yeah Don stated Z was putting his head dwn when He spotted them, before turning onto the steps. Incidentally, Don is not 100% sure which set of concrete steps it was the guy turned onto as both are right next to each other but He knows it was one of the two sets.
Anyway...

I suppose Don is recalling Z accurately in that he walked with and put his head down, Mike Mageau Had made this observation regarding the man who shot him also.
I imagine Zodiac did stick his head down and start to turn onto the steps and in all likelyhood this is when Dn calls out to him, if it was Fouke, and that again explains Don's memo comments of "Light colored hair, possibly greying at the rear. He has no position or chance to see the back of the guys head when actually on Jackson because they, He and Zodiac, are heading straight toward each other head on.

I think it maybe was Don because it is alleged that Eric Zelms Widow has officially put pen to paper to declare that she swears that her late husband did confide in her that He and Don had in fact stopped and spoken with a white male that night. Howard Davies posted a copy of the email he received from Diane Zelms stating this very fact so if that email is genuinely from Eric's widow then I am sure we can all agree that she has no reason, nor would want to even attempt, to lie about something Eric had or had not said to her shortly before his passing.

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 04:03:01 pm

Don claims that when He spotted the white male, Eric was 'Looking the other way keeping an eye out for anyone on the other side of the street" or words to that effect.
I don't think it's necessary to criticize Don for this because I think He's simply trying to protect the inexperienced rookie cop.

Don's own subconscious mind betrays this 'Eric was looking out of the window in the other direction' claim when He, without even realizing it, says "Seeing that it was a White Male in an affluent neighbourhood walkiing along the street WE didn't think it was the suspect." What's this 'We' business Don, thought Eric was looking the other way?

In regards to your comment/question Rich:
"The question is was the Zodiac aware of the fact that two police officers were travelling on Jackson Street, when he wrote the Bus Bomb Letter stating "the cops pulled a goof". Had this detail been covered in the newspapers prior to November 9th,"

The answer is: No. It hadn't even been logged in Don and/or A.P's post crime reports. If we assume that it is without question that cops did stop a White Male on Jackson that night then like you said, the potential for Zodiac to simply have a wild guess and be correct about this encounter is almost nill realistically so Zodiac is either aware of this encounter because He was man involved in the encounter itself, or was hiding close by somewhere (lets say, ducked out of sight behind a vehicle close enough to hear the cops and pedestrian's conversation) and simply makes the claim that He was this pedestrian to throw more confusion into the mix, or the only other scenario is that He knew of this encounter because He is a Cop himself.

"Assuming he had no access to official police reports, it would suggest the Zodiac was telling the truth"

Well there's no question in my mind Zodiac is telling the truth about encountering cops that night but here is where it gets rather strange, even odd and maybe even counter intuative.
What I can't work out is this: After Zodiac announces with great glee "PS, 2 cops pulled a gooof' and claims He was stopped and spoken with is why would Don admit to seeing a suspect yes, but not to stopping him? Why wouldn't Don just simply deny everything, "Didn't see anybody that night let alone stop them and question them" response? Remember, Don has not mentioned in any report of even seeing a white guy that night so it really isn't in his own interest to now admit yes He did because people like me would start asking why didn't you report this at the time on the night? Also, all Don is going to do here is valadate and give credit to the validity of what it is that Zodiac is claiming. Z claims He saw and encounters 2 cops that night, Don fouke admits to seeing a white guy in response to this claim made by Zodiac after the fact, but not before Z has gone public with this.

See for me I would think your either going to simply deny everything "Didn't see a white guy, didn't stop white guy, never spoke with white guy so Zodiac is lying" kind of defensive denial or, if you are going to make an admission, then you admit to speaking to him. Why in the World would you simply admit to even seeing him if your going to deny speaking to him? Admitting seeing him and confirming at least part of what Zodiac is saying as true and accurate will just give the entire claim made this writer now seem somewhat credible because you as A cop have confirmed at least part of what He is saying is true, and even that part that is true that He is recalling is a part that we the police had failed to mention to anyone prior to Zodiac becomming highly offended at not reading about his chatting to and assissting The SFPD in their attempts to apprehend him.

Richard

7/7/2015 07:38:39 pm

The only realistic answer is he admitted to Pelissetti and later denied it. It also throws into question if the Zodiac was telling the truth about the cops stopping him, what's the likelihood of the rest of his communication being nearer the truth, certainly the murder occurring at the Washington and Maple intersection in my humble opinion. I cannot understand the concept of the murder occurring at Washington and Cherry, then wasting time travelling east on Jackson, when the simple solution would have been to head straight north into the Julius Khan Park. But since he was likely travelling east on Jackson, I can only believe this was his initial intended target zone. Now if it wasn't for reaching his vehicle or home residence, why would he be entering the park from here rather than Jackson/Cherry. I am not totally sure, but on the northeast side of the park is the Letterman General Hospital via Portola Way, but the main route off West Pacific Avenue to the dense shrubbery and trees of the park is via Arguello Boulevard. If Donald Fouke did travel straight on after encountering Zodiac and went onto Arguello Boulevard, Zodiac may have seen this, so when Zodiac entered the park he may have travelled east again toward the Presidio Boulevard area, away from the westerly location of the police, where Zodiac directed them.
Now this is really important, this is what the Zodiac said again in his Bus Bomb Letter "2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again."
If we take this statement as truth then "a block and a half away" from 3712 Jackson Street is the intersection of Jackson/Spruce Street. The Zodiac then said he disappeared into the park.
He further said "The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west". The dogs were to the west, so they must along with the police been searching the trees encircling Arguello Boulevard in the park, this is just over 2 blocks to the west. If the Zodiac entered via Spruce and turned east to enter the woods there, he has a clear line of sight, even in 1969. His description of 150 feet is nothing unusual, his distance judgement was not particularly accurate at either BRS or LB.
See this diagram, it explains all and why he could have been in the park and avoided any scent dogs for at least some of the time. His escape into the Letterman/Marina District is then a good place to leave a car or enter a house, backing west onto the woods.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/793584_orig.gif

Alex Lewis

7/7/2015 10:37:06 pm

"I cannot understand the concept of the murder occurring at Washington and Cherry, then wasting time travelling east on Jackson, when the simple solution would have been to head straight north into the Julius Khan Park."

Yes it would be pointless and not at all in his own interest to have an extra block to backtrack when you've just come from that direction. But see this is odd only if we take Z at his word and believe His destination was Julius Kahn that night. If, lets say, He was heading for a property somewhere close by (which is why he ignored the entrance on Cherry through onto West Pacific in the first place) then it does make sense to go the extra block because He isn't going to commit the crime right outside his own house where neighbours would instantly recognize him if seen leaving the cab so it makes perfect sense He'd go an extra block and one street over from His own home on Jackson so that his immediate neighbours were not able to see the crime scene from their homes.

I mean if He really was heading for Julius Kahn Park then we are have to ask why? What was he planning to do, sit on the swings and watch the search for an hour? Lol. But serious, why in the World would his destination be a park? If He's not got a residence available close by then I would fully expect him to want to get away from the area and out of Pacific Heights ASAP.... Just like He had done at Lake Berryessa.

Richard

7/7/2015 07:53:44 pm

Not forgetting the area of Argeullo Boulevard where the motorcycles were, is an elevated area, compared the Zodiac's position.

Richard

7/7/2015 07:58:12 pm

Here is a better view of the line of sight and elevation.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Washington+St+and+Cherry+St,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/37.78976,-122.45583/@37.7901171,-122.430661,2081a,20y,270.35h,44.99t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m10!4m9!1m5!1m1!1s0x808587301b6b6cc5:0x8ad56b1d3e042f1!2m2!1d-122.4572353!2d37.7886851!1m1!4e1!3e2?hl=en

Richard

7/7/2015 08:34:06 pm

Here is Arguello Boulevard in the park looking down towards the Zodiac position.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.792246,-122.458221,3a,75y,92.4h,59.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLioWhDnggQ5TlhItaRzSEw!2e0!3e5!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Richard

7/8/2015 01:12:24 am

By the way what was Frank Peda doing while the other three were roaming around Jackson and Cherry, was this Pelissetti's idea of securing the scene prior to Dave Toschi arriving, because he was on foot dodging the parked cars. Surely for safety reasons they should have travelled up Cherry together. What happened to Frank Peda immediately after October 11th, didn't he give any statements in the police files along with Eric Zelms at the time. What Eric had to say would have either backed or contradicted Fouke. I know he was a rookie, but his statement should have been taken independently and been of equal importance. We don't know what Peda did, when Pelissetti went on his ramble. Did he open the taxicab door, did he secure the scene, check for vitals. Where is the rest of the report, it's a little bereft of detail don't you think Alex.

Alex Lewis

7/8/2015 06:43:54 am

"By the way what was Frank Peda doing while the other three were roaming around Jackson and Cherry?"

Ummm, Pass Please. . . Next Question. Lol.

Don't know mate what He was doing as Armond tip-toes down Cherry Street trying his absolute best not to get his head blown off.

I would assume, and this is nothing more than a complete guess and not based on any fact, that Peda took the kids back into the home and got some details of the incident and offender. No idea to be honest Rich is the truthful answer.

This incident Rich has so many eyebrow raising circumstances. Do I think two of them should have taken off after an armed and extremely dangerous suspect? No question, that's the very reason Officers work in pairs to cover their fellow cops back. I not 100% sure Rich but back then I don't think individual officers had their own radio on their person like today and if that is the case then Armond going after an armed man wanted for a murder committed minutes prior to him setting off after him alone at night without cover or back-up nor abaility to call for backup with the radio car back at the scene then A.P is Absolutely the dumbest cop I've come across, either that or He was suicidal, one or the other.

See all these non corosponding scenarios, lies flying around here and there, nothing seeming to make any sense regarding almost everything these two cops did that night can only mean they are not telling the truth about the nights events that unfolded and if that is what they are doing then I think it's safe to assume Rich that Don and Armond didn't both conspire to lie and lie and lie again about what happened that night because they were bored and wanted something to do, but because they saw smething and/or someone that night and for whatever reason they don't want you and I knowing about it.
I mean come on Rich, there is a Memo to the FBI Identification Division that has, printed as a footnote as if it were not really anything of real interest, the phrase: "FOR INFO F IDENT DIVISION. EIGHT YEAR OLD WITNESS IN MURDER OF CAB DRIVER IDENTIFIED *UNKNOWN REDACT* AS POSSIBLE SUBJECT IN THE MATTER.

When I first came across this I all but fell off my chair. WHAT?? A witness had ID'd a person as the Zodiac and this never makes it to any report, is absent from all media reporting on the incident, and is relegated to one sentence? So do they also want you and I to believe that when a live on scene witness points to a guy and says "That's him, yes. He was the man who I saw just get out of the taxi at the corner of W and C Streets" is not important at all and nobdy is going to mention this ever again.

Mate Zodiac was identified by not just anyone, not a kook or attention seeking personality type, but by a youngster who was there and saw the offender commit the crime according to the memo. This is the single biggest break the case had seen up to and including that moment. This news is excellent and SFPD should be falling over themselves wanting to call a press confrence and the six oclock news top story airing as "Good Evening. Today there has been a huge significant break in the Zodiac case. A suspect in the homicide of a cab driver in Pfic Hgts has been arrested after a witness at the scene of the crime observed the suspect as he vacated the cab and walked away.This witness subsequently positively identified a 38 year old factory worker as the person He was absolutely sure He'd just seen exit the taxi and walk away shortly before Mr Stine's Body was found.

What did we get instead? Nothing. Jack Shit. Silence. So taking all this in and then factoring in the fact that this killing was the last confirmed and authenticated Zodiac attack then the killings stop as far as we can tell or know, then what do the Authorities Know that we don't and what and why did Zodiac decide that He has gone from absolutely loving the game and writing campeign he is authoring on Saturday Night to not being interested and deciding to retire on Sunday morning?

Richard

7/10/2015 06:28:19 pm

Alex, how about this one for a cracker. If you visit Tom's site here http://www.zodiackiller.com/Stine.html. It says "The three witnesses watched the suspect from approximately 60 feet away as he wiped down the cab with a cloth after killing Stine. They called the police and described a white male, 25 to 30 years old, 5'8" to 5'9", stocky build, reddish-brown hair worn in a crew cut, heavy-rimmed glasses and dark clothing. They last saw him casually walking north on Cherry Street. Unfortunately, the police dispatcher mistakingly described the suspect as being a black male adult. As a result, when patrol officers Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms minutes later observed a white man walking east on Jackson Street, he was never stopped and questioned. The officers did get a good look at him, however. When the correct description of the suspect was finally broadcast, the officers realized they might have encountered him". Well they described a white male, reddish brown hair and crew cut and the dispatcher obviously passed this info on to Fouke and Pelissetti, who subsequently went on their merry way. I am absolutely certain the dispatcher after taking this description off the teenagers didn't just relay the colour aspect alone to responding officers, if the dispatcher supposedly informed officers of a black male, didn't the officers reply immediately "What, a black male with a crew cut and reddish brown hair". How many black people in 1969 had a reddish brown crew cut.

Alex

7/10/2015 09:22:22 pm

You know what Rich I never thought about the hair color in relation to suspects ethnicity, I was just sure for numerous other reasons that No such Negro Male/Black Male broadcast was ever issused but you just pointed out one additional reason that I had not thought of as to why it is that no description of A NMA was ever given to Don, Armond, or any other cop on patrol that night. It's a brilliant point that Rich because that as a description would almost want to make you if it came through your radio. "All Available Units please respond immediately to a cab driver being robbed and possoibly assaulted. . . Suspect will be A Black Male, thats a Black Male with red hair and Red Hair will be in syle of crew cut.

" "What, a black male with a crew cut and reddish brown hair". How many black people in 1969 had a reddish brown crew cut."

Well I think importantly Rich the question is how man Black Males were walking around with red hair? It makes your first impulse or reaction to hearing that description be to want to laugh. "What? Say that again Please Dispatch because there is a problem with our radio as it sounded like the description was of A NMA with red hair our end, over. . . . . Ohh, you did say NMA with red hair. . . . Are you sure this is correct." Lol

Richard

7/10/2015 06:54:01 pm

In fact the police report says reddish blond, that's even worse.

Alex

7/10/2015 11:09:05 pm

True. I have never seen a Black guy in my liife with blonde, red, or reddish blonde hair unless they have dyed it that color and then it's clear and obvious that the case.

Well Rich I think we should just be thankful that our Friend Mr Fouke said of the suspects eyes "I couldn't tell you what color they were, it was dark enough that his eyes (color) were concealed" otherwise Rich you and I may be looking for a Black Male Adult with Blonde hair and Blue Eyes.

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 09:25:38 am

Up to date wanted poster for our suspect.

WANTED: ZODIAC.
CRIMES: REFUSAL TO PAY FOR TAXIS AND CALLING INSP. TOSCHI A PIG. (Felony Offences)

DESCRIPTION OF SUSPECT: A Black Caucasian Adult. HAIR: Blonde to light brown with slight red tint and is going grey at rear.

Distingushing features: Stumble and Shuffles, refuses to walk normally under any circumstances.
Is known to: Find the ground interesting, is seen looking at it when shuffling from A to B.
Police are advised to use caution as suspect will not think twice about running up some steps to confuse the shit out of them.
Has been known to stop and help police in their efforts to try to apprehend him. Claims to Enjoy needling the Blue Pigs whenever possible

Last known location: Jackson Street giggling to himself before He Shuffled his way into the realm of oblivion, or as He called it, Julius Kahn.

SFPD CRIME-LINE 1800-648-47.
Note: SFPD are dedicated to serving and protecting the public and will do all we can to put you hold for six years when we learn your call is regading The Zodiac Case before we tell you that no detective is available at present and ask you to please call back in 20 years time.

Alex

7/11/2015 12:16:41 am

Armond seems to know very well how unlikely and even unbelievable what He is claiming is because He says in 2007's TITZSpking Documentary "The initial description that came out over the air was of an NMA, a Negro Male Adult. The Only person that could have given that information would be the child who called it in." Now Armond seems to realize just how not likely that is because in spite of him stating in the sentence above that "The Only Person that could have given that information..." He now in the next sentence offers us a 2nd alternative/person responsible when He says: "Whether that dispatcher wrote it incorrectly and the child had actually said a White guy, I don't know."

Armond doesn't know, His Dpt doesn't know, we don't know, in fact, nobody on this Planet knows.

Both dispatchers who took calls in the previous two Zodiac incidents are not only named and known, but they've both gone on camera to tell us who they are, Mr David Slaight and Miss Nancy Slover respectively, and described to us in detail what their conversations were and what they said to the caller, what the caller was telling them and we have a detailed acount with the specifics of the conversations given by these two people who are actually real people with Names.

Maybe this dispatcher hadn't made a mistake and He at the time He was giving out the NMA broadcast, Maybe that's why He is no longer with the Dpt after they suspect him of racial discrimination after broadcasts were repeatedly heard "All Units. . . White Power! White Power!" Maybe at the very moment he Dispatches Armond to respond to the corner of Washington and Cherry streets He is wearing a pinted pillow case over his head? Yes, that's what happened.

Now if I had chance to speak with Armond I would deliberately say I believe what I just stated above to the truth, and when Armond respnded: "Do be so ridicilous that is the most outragous and laughable claim to make about what happened" I would then say "Ohh I don't know about that Army, yours and Don's claims of what you did that night rival my theory in the stupidity and absurdness of what is being claimed. The only difference is, of course, I am not being serious in asking you to believe this claim of my KKK Dispatcher because its complete fiction made up by me. I suppoe we at least have that in common regarding our stories of this NMA blunder.

Alex Lewis

7/31/2015 11:50:40 pm

Hey Rich, US Dpt of Justice responded to me today and my latest most recent FOIA request for more suspect name releases! I have an additional 3 suspects names released to myself along with their DOB. I ain't releasing them but i'll email them to you shortly.
Alex

Alex Lewis

8/1/2015 12:05:38 am

Just emailed you the three names Rich along with their DOB. Speaking of FOIA requests, did you send your's off after?

Pomy Collingwood

10/16/2015 02:39:45 am

I thought the character they'd stopped said that he had had seen someone running into the field or something like it. How d'we know that the Zodiac wrote he was questioned?! As far as documentaries & some pieces I've read about the case the Zodiac only says that they almost had caught him, had they searched more thoroughly.

Pomy Collingwood

Richard

10/16/2015 05:25:21 am

Zodiac stated a month after the murder "2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again".
Zodiac said he directed the cops up Jackson Street effectively and north into the Presidio park.
He had earlier stated in a letter on October 13th, two days after the attack that "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover".
But whether he went into the park Pomy is open to question, it depends on whether you believe the Zodiac or the police, who claim they did a thorough search of the park with sniffer dogs, so much so they claim not even a mouse could have escaped their attention.

Alex Lewis

3/7/2016 02:07:34 am

"I thought the character they'd stopped said that he had had seen someone running into the field or something like it."

Well Officer Fouke Himself says He didn't stop any character that night. His colleague, Mr Pelissetti, disagrees and claims Fouke told Him that He did stop a White Guy and then Armond Pelissetti Himself gives two different contradictory accounts of what the the guy is supposed to have said to Fouke in reply to His question.

Pelissetti first version He gives by making the following statement: "The other unit stopped someone and asked Him had He seen anyone in the area and the person said 'Yes, A man just ran into the presidio."
Second and more recent version Armond now changes this to: "He (Fouke) told me He saw a man walking by and He asked that person 'Did you see anybody go by?' The person said 'No"

So essentially you either believe Don, in which nothing is said to anyone anywhere or , you believe one of the two versions of what the guy actually said in response to Fouke in that He either replied "Yes, A man just ran into the Presidio" or gave A One word response of "No."

Me personally, based on Don speeding straight to West Pacific AAvenue, I believe that the told don "Yes, A man just ran into the Presidio."

THE JACKSON STREET INCIDENT

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