THE DONALD FOUKE TIMELINE

12/13/2015

This article is an extension of '2 Cops Pulled a Goof', but on this occasion it will be a case of reversing backward through the timeline of Donald Fouke, that has him approaching the Jackson and Maple intersection fully aware he is looking for a white male adult, before he even lays eyes on the mystery man on Jackson Street. If you believe the 2007 Zodiac documentary and the timeline statements of Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti contained within it, then it is impossible for Donald Fouke to still be under the impression he is looking for a black male as he hits the intersection of Jackson and Maple.
Donald Fouke stated he received the initial dispatch traveling northbound on Presidio Avenue, having just passed Washington Street, turned west on Jackson, proceeded to Cherry Street and turned left heading south on Cherry, where he met Armond Pelissetti who had just left the crime scene.
Armond Pelissetti on the other hand, after examining the crime scene stated "it was then I was told it was a white male, I couldn't get to the radio fast enough at that point to let everybody else know. The kids had told me whoever had done this crime had left the cab, went out the door and seemed to be wiping the cab down and reaching into the cab and ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction, kind of towards the Presidio. I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn't get my head blown off."

Here is the basic layout of the relevant area and the time it takes to walk along Cherry and Jackson Street. The Zodiac Killer was in fact correct when he mentioned this journey taking approximately 3 minutes: "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up."
Remember, Armond Pelissetti receives the update of the suspect being a white male at the crime scene and gets on the radio to inform everyone else. He then proceeds up Cherry Street cautiously, after all he " didn't want to get his head blown off." It takes 1 minute to walk up Cherry Street at a normal pace, so we will afford Armond Pelissetti 90 seconds. It probably took him longer, but 90 seconds will do for now.
At the top of Cherry Street he bumps into Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms, who are naturally responding to the crime scene.
THIS IS NOW 90 SECONDS AFTER INFORMING ALL OTHER OFFICERS OF THE REVISED WHITE MALE DESCRIPTION, INCLUDING DONALD FOUKE AND ERIC ZELMS, SO WHERE WERE DONALD FOUKE AND ERIC ZELMS 90 SECONDS AGO, CONSIDERING THEY ARE NOW AT THE TOP OF CHERRY STREET.

The above portion of Jackson Street takes approximately 2 minutes to travel at an average walking speed (3.1 mph), so does it take Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms 90 seconds to travel the same distance traveling at 35 mph in a police car. This is what Donald Fouke said in the 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary concerning his speed, "Before I saw him (the white male on Jackson St) I was traveling probably about 35-40 mph, slowed down as we passed him, saw it was a white male, step on the gas, 5,10,15 seconds tops."

So where were Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms 90 seconds prior to meeting Armond Pelissetti. The answer is, well beyond the vicinity of the sighting of the white male on Jackson Street and well beyond the intersection of Jackson and Maple. In fact 90 seconds ago both officers would actually be back where they received the initial radio broadcast, at the Presidio Avenue and Washington Street intersection. It begs the question, was Presidio Avenue/Washington St really where they received the initial radio broadcast of an attempted robbery of a taxicab driver, or where they actually received the amended description.

In fact walking from the top of Cherry Street to the intersection of Jackson and Maple traveling at 4 mph walking speed and taking 2 minutes, would mean this section of Jackson Street is only 0.1333 miles in length.
If this portion of Jackson Street was 0.2 miles, then in 90 seconds Donald Fouke would have to be traveling at an average speed of 8 mph to cover the distance. But we know his average speed was approximately 30 mph.
Traveling at 30 mph for 90 seconds, means you would cover three quarters of a mile. This would place Donald Fouke's police car well beyond the intersection of Jackson and Maple when he received the amended white male description.
This means that if we take the timeline of Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti as fact, as presented in the 2007 Zodiac Killer documentary, it would clearly show that both Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms both knew they were looking for a white male suspect long before they spotted him on Jackson Street and the accounts portrayed in this documentary are totally incorrect. In fact the longer it takes Armond Pelissetti to travel Cherry Street, the further back from the Jackson/Maple intersection Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms would become, when they get the updated description. The only way around this discrepancy is if Donald Fouke never traveled directly to Cherry Street. The claim of his in the 1989 'Crime of the Century' documentary that "We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going, we did not find the suspect," is the only viable option. In other words he searched on West Pacific Avenue and returned back to Cherry Street in 90 seconds after receiving the updated description. This is the only way to account for the 90 seconds it took for Armond Pelissetti to send out the updated radio broadcast and possibly meet Donald Fouke at the top of Cherry Street. If this is the only viable option, then who directed the two police officers into Arguello and West Pacific Avenue away from the Washington and Cherry crime scene. I will let you decide.
This is not meant to cast aspersions on the character of Donald Fouke or Armond Pelissetti, but to simply highlight that the events of October 11th 1969 could not have unfolded as portrayed in the 2007 Zodiac documentary.

75 Comments

Alex Lewis

12/13/2015 07:52:50 am

Hey Rich, Here are the facts relating to The SFPD:

The Chronicle conducted a review of SFPD's results compared with the city of San Diego, Here's the published report:

"In every category of solving violent crime, San Diego police far outperform their counterparts in San Francisco.
San Diego solved 36 percent of reported robberies, while San Francisco solved 20 percent, according to a five-year average from 1996 to 2000, the most recent data available.
Nonfatal stabbings, shootings and beatings - San Diego solved 75 percent to San Francisco's 38 percent.
San Diego homicide detectives solved about 64 percent of their city's murders, while San Francisco police solved half.
"We catch the stupid and the unlucky. A lot of people get away with it," said Lt. Henry Hunter, supervisor of San Francisco's General Work detail.

San Francisco has significantly more officers per 1,000 residents, 2.9, than the 1.7 officers in San Diego.
San Diego assigns a team of six investigators to each murder. If one takes time off, a replacement investigator is brought in. San Francisco assigns two investigators to each murder. Even when one investigator goes on vacation for several weeks, no replacement is usually brought in.

Since 1995, San Diego has used one of its six-member homicide teams to investigate "cold cases" - those murders that remain unsolved for years. Recent breakthroughs in technology like DNA comparison have spurred this effort. San Francisco has no systematic cold-case review.
"Since the cold case team started, 47 homicides were solved," said Jorge Duran, a detective sergeant assigned to San Diego's homicide squad.

Mike link

12/13/2015 06:03:47 pm

One the one hand, I think it's very difficult to nail down a timeline to an accuracy of seconds or even minutes given the nature of the information that we have.

On the other hand, I think your conclusions are exactly right. I believe Fouke and Zelms continued to Arguello Street, just as Fouke described in the "Crimes of the Century" interview. Furthermore, in Fouke's memo, he states "when the right description was broadcast...." which, of course, suggests Pelissetti was not the direct source of the information.

Richard

12/14/2015 12:14:56 am

That is a good point Mike, the scratch issued one month after the crime certainly strengthens the fact that Donald Fouke was updated via a broadcast and not in person via Pelissetti. It is difficult to nail down a timeline, but what we do know that according to the 2007 documentary Fouke said he traveled from Presidio Ave/Washington, west on Jackson to Cherry, this is 90 seconds (2 mins tops). Armond Pelissetti traveled to Washington and Cherry, ushered the kids to alcove, took new description, checked Paul Stine in taxicab, got on the radio to issue updated broadcast and carefully walked up Cherry. This took far longer than 90 seconds/2 min. So if both officers received the initial broadcast at the same time, they couldn't possibly meet at Cherry. These actions by Pelissetti would take a minimum of 3/4 mins, Fouke would now be at the crime scene. However the deviation to Arguello and West Pacific Avenue by Donald Fouke fills in the missing 90 seconds to 2+ odd minutes, allowing the timeline to make more sense.

Richard

12/14/2015 12:54:17 am

I am still not convinced of this so called BMA description by the mystery dispatcher. This I believe was an exonerating exercise. Surely it is not standard police dispatcher training to take the whole description from the teenagers and then when you inform the responding officers, you actually omit virtually everything about the description and just say 5'10" black male. The reason I say this Mike because if Donald Fouke was given black male, 5'10", crew cut, blond/reddish hair, glasses, 200lbs, dark clothing and Donald Fouke passes a man fitting the entire description apart from the colour, surely his interest and police training must have suggested this could be the guy or at least pricked his interest, not withstanding that not many black people had crew cuts and blond hair in 1969 as described in the police dispatch. Many people have tried to explain this away saying the dispatcher gave over only minimal information in the dispatch, but not only does this defeat the object of taking a full description, but will inevitably lead to people being overlooked and in this case evading justice. This surely cannot be standard practice even in 1969. How can we reconcile these facts Mike with any conviction.

Alex Lewis

12/15/2015 07:22:31 am

Rich: "I am still not convinced of this so called BMA description by the mystery dispatcher."

When I first mentioned this point to you, I did so after looking at the circumstances in which this claimed error was given. It struck me that in no immediate post-crime reports was there any mention that officers had been given wrong information relating to the suspects description. Furthermore, it was only after and in response to, Zodiac's letter published In which He shone light on the fact that Officers had spotted Him that night on the sidewalk of Jackson Street. This, as I said previously, is 'Damage limitation' time for the SFPD and a kind of 'Shit, He's wrote about the fact our officers did see him that night and yet failed to apprehend Him and this will cause absolute uproar if the public know this fact and so in light of that, and wishing to keep the public feeling safe and believe in our competence, we shall say the dispatcher issued a NMA instead of the correct WMA and thus, we now have legitimate cause and reason to admit officers spotted Him and had little to no reason to believe He was the man they were looking for."

Richard

12/15/2015 07:26:36 am

Here in theory is part of the police dispatchers message to Donald Fouke "Be on the lookout for a black male adult, blond-reddish hair and crew cut" and nobody questioned this in 1969. Didn't somebody once say the police were trained to be observant. Surely it is not standard police dispatcher training to take the whole description from the teenagers, and then when you inform the responding officers you actually omit virtually everything about the description and just say 5'10" black male, as some people have said, to attempt to explain away this discrepancy.
Donald Fouke was given black male, 5'10", crew cut, blond/reddish hair, glasses, 200 lbs, dark clothing and Donald Fouke passes a man fitting the entire description apart from the color, surely his interest and police training must have suggested this could be the guy or at least pricked his interest, not withstanding that not many black people had crew cuts and blond hair in 1969 as described in the police dispatch.
When Donald Fouke approached the man on Jackson Street, he, like we all do is look at the persons face, after all he is supposedly looking for a BMA, so why then bother to pay any attention to his elasticated cuffs and tan engineering boots. Also the biggest giveaway that he was looking for a white male, is if realizing the guy was a white male when he was looking for a black male, his immediate focus should be on looking for this black male once he passed the mystery man on Jackson Street, yet he described this white man as 'graying at the rear of his hair'. Why is Donald Fouke bothering with detail like this, the man is white, the back of his head is not important if you are looking for a black male.

Also take a look at Donald Fouke's scratch "I respectfully wish to report the following, that while responding to the area of Washington and Cherry Streets a suspect fitting the description of the Zodiac Killer was observed by Officer Fouke walking in an easterly direction on Jackson Street and then turn on Maple Street. The suspect was not stopped as the description received from communication was that of a negro male. When the right description was broadcast Officer Fouke informed communications"

The scratch says "a suspect fitting the description of the Zodiac Killer was observed by Officer Fouke."
So the suspect did fit the description he was given by dispatch, except the BMA part, but this was ignored on account of one discrepancy despite everything else matching. And again BMA with blond hair and crew cut. Come on.

Richard

12/15/2015 07:29:56 am

Unless you believe the 3712 Jackson Street fiasco, of a man climbing stairs, that stayed private for 38 years.

Alex Lewis

12/15/2015 07:51:46 am

And I also don't believe Don only saw this WMA as He Himself was approaching the Intersection of Maple St and the un-sub WMA was on the sidewalk outside 3712 and turned onto that very homes steps. It's Approx.75 yards distance just approaching the intersection to the steps of 3712 and yet Mr Fouke tells us "I remember seeing His eyes, I couldn't tell you what colour they were, it was dark, dark enough that His eyes (colour thereof) were concealed." Well that's a long old distance to remember looking into someone eyes, even if it took place in daytime hours but at night? Sceptical to say the least.
Then there's Don's "Five, Ten, Fifteen seconds from first spotting him to passing Him" claim. Let's go with the 10 seconds sighting. Don spots A WMA at night, on a street, from a distance of roughly 75 yards and upon doing so, realized the guy was White immediately and then "Step on the gas" which suggests He took no notice of this guy upon instantly seeing His was not a BMA. Then Don tells us the clothing description of this man He took absolutely no notice of by declaring: "I noticed, on the North side of the street, a White Male Adult wearing a three quarter waist length jacket, with elastic on the waist and on the cuffs, and a regular flap down collar. He had a crew cut, and was wearing rust coloured pleated trousers, which were unusual for the time. He had on Engineering type boots, a low cut shoe and tan in colour."

Jesus Christ Don! From seeing His eyes to the colour of the guys footwear, all recollected by you from a sighting which took place at night & lasted probably 10 seconds. Genius!

Greg H.

12/14/2015 10:30:37 pm

I believe that if a fabrication or exaggeration relates to The Presidio shooting it comes from Police Chief Marvin Lee when he says "a mouse couldn't have escaped our attention."

During the course of the crime occuring and in its immediate aftermath, they didn't know this was the work of the area's most wanted man. They, of course, didn't learn Zodiac was the murderer until a couple days later when they received his letter. I believe Lee's statement was a deliberate attempt at damage control once word got out this was not just another homicide by numbers. Perhaps his statement would be better revised by saying: "Had we known Zodiac did this, a mouse . . ."
Zodiac may have been correct when he alluded to the unprofessionalism going on around him as he took cover in the park.

As for why they overlooked the white man walking on Jackson even if his other traits may have matched the other characteristics in question (i.e. hair color, glasses, weight, clothing) I'd say it's because the skin color discrepency immediately disqualified him in the eyes of the officers. Skin color is probably the first thing they scan for when evaluating. If they were to have hesitated on the WMA it would have wasted precious time for the black male they were looking for to better his odds of escaping. It may have been a case of tunnel vision on their part, but they had no way of knowing there was a mix-up at the time. They were doing their best to search for an individual matching the description given.

Alex

12/20/2015 04:41:45 pm

"I believe that if a fabrication or exaggeration relates to The Presidio shooting it comes from Police Chief Marvin Lee when he says "a mouse couldn't have escaped our attention."

Well He uses this an a figure of speech, a metaphor as an example to make a point rather than literally stating a factual belief and knowledge that No Rodent could remain concealed from me and my men lol.
Barring Lee running an experiment to have 15 mice let Loose within the Presidio and them have Him tasked with finding all 15 without one escaping lol.

Greg serious question though mate, genuinely curious, Do you simply accept the official claims and declarations because the come from A source that you just can't believe or envisage deliberately lying? If that is why, or whatever the reason you accept the official version, what is your opinion on Fouke's 'Big Reveal' in 2007...."And turned into the entrance way of a House.....By entrance way, I mean ermmm Not North on Maple Street."

Lee was stating His logical conclusion and belief that this braggart is lying, He wasn't in the JK area at all, because several search lights, a swarm of cops and 5 K9's would have come across a concealed person by accidentally stumbling across them in the end if the dogs noses failed, the illuminated grounds that gave a middle of day appearance & the only direction police weren't saturating the area from was above.
Also, I would hazard a Guess that Don told Toschi, Chief Lee etc of the true last location He observed suspect going so Lee more than likely knew, but were not publically acknowledging, the offender spoke to Cops, Himself directed what became a small army of police into the Presidio and last observed on sidewalk of street. Lee would know that after no suspect is found and Fouke in all likelihood admits 'Well the WMA I spoke with that fit suspect description, did Himself point me and Zelms to JK Park.

Lee then would know not only was He not discovered within the Presidio, which is overwhelmingly suggestive of He not present there to be found in to begin with but, He would also realize that if the suspect Himself directed an army of responders onto West Pacific Avenue, it will be because He Himself is never going to set foot on that ground and will do what I would do if I were Z confronted by Police......Misdirect them to the right as I run like hell the other way to the left,

Richard

12/21/2015 02:54:42 am

I used to believe Zodiac had a vehicle parked somewhere by Jackson and Maple but in time have changed my opinion based on arguments and certain claims, however nothing is static and my opinions may change again. Many people don't believe Zodiac's claims of hiding in the park saying he is just a braggart and liar, but I tend toward believing what he said is true. Zodiac had ample opportunity to brag about Lake Berryessa but failed to give us anything, largely because what he read from Bryan Hartnell's recounting of events was largely true and he simply couldn't add much. Presidio Heights was a different matter, he seemed intent on refuting the police claims and their omission of the encounter on Jackson Street. The sheer detail of "there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west." tends me to believe he was telling the truth. This immense detail is totally unnecessary if you are simply intent on making a broad statement and every single detail Zodiac gives is consistent with somebody hiding in the bushes somewhere north of Spruce Street. The dog claims by Martin Lee are irrelevant because these sniffer dogs were not employed immediately, it took time to mobilize the dog units and once they did Zodiac left the park. Everything he said is perfectly plausible and just because he was a murderer and braggart does not make his claims impossible. Nothing he said can be refuted, unlike many of the good police officers. This story is not just about good and evil, it is about what is possible and what is not and on that front, nobody has yet proven that what Zodiac has said is not the truth.

Alex

12/21/2015 08:10:29 am

"Presidio Heights was a different matter, he seemed intent on refuting the police claims and their omission of the encounter on Jackson Street."

Yeah, for me Rich He replied firtly refuting the Fingerprint left is His and that, He declares, is "Contrary to what The Police Say." Also dismisses the sketch as irrelevant as that look is deliberate and only surfaces when He is doing His thing.
This isn't 'cop v bad guy and nothing personal' because Top Dog and Chief of the Homicide Inspectors Mr Lee wasn't to sit back and become either intimidated nor Polite and gave this Gob Shite a bit of His own medicine and basically told The Chronicle's Mr Alery..."Yeah well He can talk shit all He wants, fact is this mans a complete novice and allowed Himself to be seen by witnesses. Also, obvious Closeted Homosexual we have reason to believe and is just a liar' and I can see the context and Underlying anger Chief Lee has at this insult throwing shit head and can almost see a final statement after Lee has finished His own mud slinging effort with "And so, there you are Mr Zodiac, what do you think about that then, huh? You may make Napa, Benicia and Solano Sheriffs look incompetent,......but you aint with My Homicide Detectives at the SFPD!'

Chief Lee probably found Himself thinking: "Me and my big F'ing mouth, why did I call this guy out for a verbal war played out in The Chronice, why why why??" This would be after Lee first read 'PS - 2 Cops pulled A Goof..."With Zodiac going from a losing man I n the last round of a fight and lands a devastating punch that KO's Lee and His SFPD. THE WINNER VIA KNOCK OUT..... AND THE NEWWWWW.... UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF TABLOID VERBAL WARS.......SAN FRAN, THE LUMBERING GAAAITTTTT, ZOOOOODDDDIIIIIIAC!"

I imagine Avery attending SFPD and Office with 'Chief of Inspectors: Mr Lee' and knocking and entering asking Her Chief, woul you like to respond to.....Chief? You Ok?' And Lee with a box of tissues crying like a baby..... "Pa-Pa-Pa....Pauuull, I though I would match insult throwing, witty response issuing and humiliating Him that love to Humiliate.....PS, 2 COPS PULLED GOOF! He shut me down faster than a car motor. When I find this F*!@er Avery, there will be no trial nor even arrest....I gunna Kill this Mo-Fo, empty my 9mm into His torse, then a few round will be pumped into Him wit my shot Gum and then i will run over this f***ers head!"

Serious though, Lee initial comments published in he Chronicleeclearly motivated by Him being enraged with a kind of 'Who the fk does this guy think He is?'
After Zodiac stated almost casually as if in after-thought' Hey...PS, You asked for this Pig and now I will proceed with rubbing your face rite into the incompetent pile of shit called prowling meanies.."

Greg H.

12/15/2015 08:48:18 pm

"THIS IS NOW 90 SECONDS AFTER INFORMING ALL OTHER OFFICERS OF THE REVISED WHITE MALE DESCRIPTION, INCLUDING DONALD FOUKE AND ERIC ZELMS, SO WHERE WERE DONALD FOUKE AND ERIC ZELMS 90 SECONDS AGO, CONSIDERING THEY ARE NOW AT THE TOP OF CHERRY STREET."

I know that Pellisetti spoke about using 'red light and siren' when responding to the initial call, is it possible that Fouke's car was also blaring its sirens en route to the scene and therefore would not have heard the amended dispatch message?

That, or is there a possibility that Pellisetti's amended dispatch does not broadcast to the other squad cars in real time? Might he need to first contact the police operator who then takes down the new information provided and goes on to send it to police radio, therefore accounting for the delay / lag? Unsure exactly what the protocol and technology was like for these things in 1969...

Alex

12/22/2015 06:28:45 am

Dear the person reading this, yes, YOU who's mentally asking 'Who, Me??'

For the Attn. of Gregory & Richard III. Due to the fairly excessive length of my following response, I shall change the way of posting message today. I shall no llonger announce when I do this in future and make the posts look like routine post followed by follow up post.
The Normal People will never understand me because I am too unique for them. And so, firstly to Greg's question:

"is it possible that Fouke's car was also blaring its sirens en route to the scene and therefore would not have heard the amended dispatch message?"

A Possibility? Of course.

A Probability? No, not at all In My Opinion.

Police Dpts. and First Responders who's Job it is to drive around aimlessly until they happen upon A Crime themselves or are given Details of a crime/emergency and if it's the far more common latter of the two then the first dispatch will usually be The Minimum Details needed of what type of crime & the location thereof and upon being issued this they press their favourite little button that instantly transforms their vehicle into a Mobile Disco & ensuring all other traffic will get out of your way.
Anyway, from the countless episodes of Road-Ward (UK) & Cops (US) its En-Rout to the Emergency that addidional info is given to those responding and, at least from the majority of shows I have seen, it's the cops responding radioing Dispatcher asking for Info and/or details.

Ladies & Gentlemen there will now be a small Interlude for refreshments and Act 2, Scene 1 will commence after this break & below. *Takes A Bow as the Curtain drops from above....*

Alex

12/22/2015 06:34:15 am

I am back with you. I Am the same man who did the first half post above...
Continued from last line of above post....

I mean don't forget now mind Gregory Don Fouke has already told us that His assigned Fellow Cop on the night, Officer Eric A. Zelms, A Rokkie, is Himself completely blind & saw nothing nor anyone. Don said Eric was looking the other way you see, and if it was also as Zodiac declared, and confirmed by Armond Pilissetti, that the visual quickly became verbal as The Cop stops His Car and calls over to the Un-Sub WMA then either Eric is also deaf, or Eric simply assumed Don was A Lunatic who talks to people that are not really there.

I have no proof or evidence to show that No such dispatch error was ever given, and even if it had, would make no difference at all anyway and that is due to Armond telling us He wasn't even on the scene for more than 60, "And that's when I was told iut was a White Guy" and acknowledges the urgency and importance of this knowledge saying "I couldn't get to the radio fast enough to let everyone else know."

And Alas, Mr Pelissetti has made this statement and obviously completely oblivious to the whole responding car/cars on that night because the Dpt. come up with this whole Bull Shit story of an initial erroneous Racial Description given as to why Don doesn't detain White Guy He Encountered and here's Armond throwing Himself in front of A Documentary Team and their rolling cameras to make a declaration that says "This Initial BMA Broadcast turned out to be irrelevant & no damage was done because I, being the top cop I am, ran to my radio & I correct the error, issuing "All Units: Be Advised,.... BOLO for WMA Suspect in Pcfc Hgts as Initial Broadcast of BMA was made in error, Correct Suspect to BOLO for is A WMa." This, Armond declares , was "To let EVERYONE ELSE know."

So Where as I don't believe the claim to behind with of an incorrect BMA broadcast, even if I did and/or the mistake was made and given over the air it wouldn't make a difference anyway in the end because either way, whichever you believe, both are going to point to Fouke knowing Suspect was WMA at the time He encounters an Un-Sub on Jax Street, An Un-Sub who is also A WMA!

Richard

12/16/2015 01:31:12 am

I know what you are saying about the time lag and nobody will know for sure how long the updated description took to be relayed, but Armond Pelissetti arrived on the corner red light and siren on the corner of Washington and Cherry let us say approximately 1 minute after the initial dispatch. He parks on the intersection, escorts the teenagers back to the alcove, checks on Paul Stine, retakes the new description off the kids and then calls in the new description of a black male. He then uses all his police training to carefully negotiate Cherry. Like I said previously the time taken to arrive at the crime scene, plus the walk up Cherry is a minimum of 2 and a half minutes, never mind all his other actions, so from receiving the initial radio call to arriving at the top of Cherry is at least 4 minutes, but more likely longer. After receiving the initial radio call it does not take Donald Fouke 4 minutes to arrive at Cherry from Presidio Ave/Washington St driving at 30mph. This journey is 90 seconds tops, but we'll give him 2 minutes. So the question is where was he for the other 2 minutes or missing time. My guess is Arguello and West Pacific Avenue having been pointed up there by Zodiac. In less than 3 minutes Fouke would be at the crime scene he is responding to. He claimed he was in Arguello, so why was he off route, he should have been responding to Washington and Cherry. Now if Armond Pelissetti as he claimed received the initial radio broadcast, traveled to the scene, parked up, ushered the kids, took the new description and checked Paul Stine this had to be approximately 2 minutes, then he got to the radio and updated everyone on the BMA. Donald Fouke claimed he got the updated description in Arguello of a BMA and it takes approximately 2 minutes to travel from the time he got the initial radio broadcast in Presidio/Washington to Arguello. So the timeline of both officers here is perfect. But if Fouke hadn't gone to Arguello he would now be at the crime scene receiving the update and that didn't happen.
This means there could have been little delay in the updated BMA description getting through to Donald Fouke, because Pelissetti made the amended radio call roughly 2 minutes after receiving the initial call, in this 2 minutes Fouke had traveled to Arguello where he got Pelissetti's update. If there had been a notable delay in the amended description being sent the Fouke, then he surely would have been at the crime scene when he received it. The overarching question is the claim by Fouke he received the BMA in Arguello, why had he abandoned heading to the crime scene that was conveniently changed in the 2007 documentary. There surely is absolutely no reason to be in Arguello unless some external influence has directed you there. Now if they had stopped Zodiac, would Zodiac responding to 'have you seen anybody suspicious in the last 5 or 10 minutes' logically send the cops back down Cherry, back towards the scene, knowing where the crime was committed. Would he point them in the direction he was going, no. His best option is to point them onward toward Arguello, which I believe he did and this is where Fouke received the updated BMA description.

Richard

12/16/2015 02:14:48 am

Let us say Gregory, Pelissetti takes 1 minute to arrive at the scene and takes 1 minute before he does his actions and updates the BMA description and this takes 1 minute to relay to Fouke. That is 3 minutes. Why doesn't he just tell Donald Fouke, he should be at the crime scene now. Let us impart a bigger delay to Donald Fouke, he receives the updated version 2 minutes after Pelissetti sent it. This is now 4 minutes after the initial radio broadcast. Fouke should now have arrived at the crime scene and had a cup of tea. Why doesn't Pelissetti just tell him etc. The longer the BMA update to Fouke, the longer he would have arrived at the crime scene when receiving it. He said he received it at Arguello only 90 seconds to 2 minutes after the initial broadcast, so it had to be relayed very quickly, because it took roughly 2 minutes for Pelissetti to send it after the initial broadcast. People all say memories of police officers are not what they were, that is why I give more credence to the 1989 Crimes of the Century documentary than the 2007 Zodiac documentary 18 years later. And by all the evidence, the updated description in Arguello is perfect for the timeline, but heading directly to the scene via Cherry is not. The unaccounted 2+ minutes has to be explained with Donald Fouke taking a diversion and his claim in the 1989 documentary is totally plausible.

Alex Lewis

12/24/2015 05:01:00 am

Also Rich, the whole Pelissetti foot chase claim makes no sense because it is certain that the 3 teens who told AP the suspect was White, also told Him that this same White Male had literally just left before He pulled up and how can I state this and be sure of it? Because Don Fouke states that upon He encountering Armond that night, Don stated, Quote: "He stopped us and said that He was looking for the White Male that had JUST GONE DOWN THE STREET."
Now there is no way or any possibility that Pelissetti can know when the suspect vacated that scene, and also, in which direction He went because let's not forget, we are standing at crime scene that happens to be a 4 way/street intersection.
The only way Armond can know both how long ago it was that the suspect left the scene and in what direction He did so is if the teens who witnessed the offender leave the scene told him. And so, given that Armond has been told by the on scene witnesses that the guy responsible has literally just gone down Cherry St, which would instantly tell me if I were the first cop on scene that I must instantly, without the slightest delay, get back into my vehicle and speed off down Cherry because I have information that is in all probability very credible, that the suspect is within 50, maybe 100 yards of my location.
Armond tells you and I that given the information regarding the suspects description and 10 seconds between The Suspect vacating the scene and He pulling up to it, He then decides to go after the this person on foot and I don't mean what we refer to as a 'Foot Chase' either because that it certainly was not. "I walked that way myself, I did not run..."

Call you cynical if you want, call me sceptical if you must, but I make no apology for saying to the story of AP....."Mr Pelissetti, with all due respect Sir, that's a load of complete bull shit because if something someone tells you has no logic and it doesn't make any sense, it's just not likely to be the truth."

Richard

12/16/2015 02:36:32 am

"I know that Pellisetti spoke about using 'red light and siren' when responding to the initial call, is it possible that Fouke's car was also blaring its sirens en route to the scene and therefore would not have heard the amended dispatch message?"

He said he got the updated message in Arguello Boulevard, so he must have heard it. He couldn't have not heard it earlier, because it would have been before the 2 minute mark and Pelissetti could not have relayed the updated version inside of 2 minutes.(1 min to arrive at scene + 1 minute to usher kids to alcove and take new details, then relay updated version). And in Fouke's scratch he said "The suspect was not stopped as the description received from communication was that of a negro male. When the right description was broadcast Officer Fouke informed communications." This update had to be after the Jackson/Maple intersection area, likely Arguello, hence why he proceeded around into West Pacific Avenue, because he had last seen the suspect heading east on Jackson and going north on Maple.
https://youtu.be/_A3kD-j25jQ?t=57s

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/download/file.php?id=4413

Greg H.

12/16/2015 11:02:00 pm

But if there was a cover-up, Richard, why not go all the way with it? Why only state that you saw him while you were driving by but didn't speak with him? This still leaves them with egg of their face. If they were obscuring the truth then just admit nothing.

I was just reading Fouke's statement filed Nov. 12, 1969 and his story by and large corroborates what he said in 2007. Basically that he passed the person later presumed to be the chief suspect but had no interaction with him. I suppose the main question I take from this is not necessarily to do with the veracity of his account but why it took a full month for this to be disclosed. Surely they knew Zodiac was responsible a couple of days later and equally certain are we that the press coverage of the murder was wall-to-wall. Why did it take Fouke so long to make the connection, or come forward anyway, with testimony of his experience on that night?

Your account of the timeline of events is very impressive and is not something I'd in any way attempt to refute. But I just wonder if indeed Fouke was being coached in his story with regards to what he should and should not reveal publicly, why give researchers the satisfaction of telling half the story when plausible deniability is a viable option?

The whole thing in a sense reminds me of the Roswell UFO crash. At first the military sends out a press release saying they've captured a disc but then comes a retraction of the story a couple hours later. This is arguably the correct way to do a cover-up. Just say it never happened or explain it away with something pedestrian (in this case a weather balloon). If the purported Roswell crash had taken the same route, hypothetically, as the SFPD they'd have said, 'well, we saw a confirmed alien spaceship but were unable to retrieve its debris or see its occupants'. . .Instead they took the 'deny and ridicule' (and intimidate?) approach which is always most effective...(For the record I have no stance on Roswell and whether anything significant happened; in terms of UFOs I find the Felix Moncia event much more compelling.)

Back to Zodiac, I remember talking about Fouke over the summer and the thing that surprised me - if there was a big lie - is his willingness to appear in documentaries and do interviews about Oct. 11th. If he actually did speak to Zodiac it had to be very uncomfortable for him to sit in front of film crews and unabashedly tell lies before the camera...

If, though, there is a conspiracy, or at least deliberate mistruths, involved (and I don't feel there is), it makes you curious about the fate of Eric Zelms. Could he have, unlike Fouke, been unwilling to go along with the orders of SFPD? As we know, his life was tragically cut short not long after the night of October 11th and his encounter (whether in passing or slightly longer) with the most wanted man in the city.

Alex Lewis

1/8/2016 10:37:29 am

Well the idea of a closed rank cover up and these such things happening and you and I not being told the truth about something of which the public not on deserve to know, but have a right to know was something JFK gave a speech warning the public would result if they don't hold officials to account and JFK Stated back in the Sixties:

"No Official of my Administration should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle descent, to cover up our mistakes, or to withhold from the press and the public, the facts that they deserve to know."

If the President Himself in the 1960s is warning the Citizens to be aware and alert to this threat and not let this type of censorship and covering up of mistakes by those in official capacity get away with doing this.

Kennedys seeming message was you give them a pass to go one Inch, and they will waste no time in taking a mile.

Rebecca Tokier link

4/7/2016 03:29:17 pm

Dear AL; I find your research very compelling. Would like to get in touch with u. My email. For some strange reason I can't get into it. But I have a Facebook that works well so far. Have infor for u. Believe it will help u with your research.

Alex Lewis

4/8/2016 07:33:02 am

Are you talking to me Rebecca? What is your info relating to? As for facebook, here's a link to my page:

https://www.facebook.com/WelshChappie

Richard

12/17/2015 12:09:47 am

Probably in hindsight their best course of action was to admit nothing, as it appears to have backfired. I honestly believe they were totally transparent in admitting they did cross paths with a mystery man on Jackson, but explained it away with the black male adult story. I don't think Donald Fouke is the bad guy here, he was just likely following an SFPD directive, guided down a path he had little control over. I know I sound like a big conspiracy theorist and I don't mean to, but if you look at modern day events regarding the murder of civilians by police, even with video footage, the police departments routinely paint a completely different story in an attempt to exonerate the murderers within their own police force, and as such do a disservice to the many good police officers in the USA and ultimately lose the trust of the public. In this case Donald Fouke made an innocent judgement call and he most certainly is not the criminal, but my guess is the SFPD public relations department went into overdrive and concocted a palatable order of events by inserting the BMA into the equation to protect their officer and inadvertently placed Donald Fouke in a precarious position. He has effectively been made into the fall guy. I think the SFPD were initially transparent but compounded the problem by then adding the negro male part, when like you said Gregory they really had no reason to admit anything. The scratch of Donald Fouke was effectively a response to Zodiac orchestrated by the SFPD, not Donald Fouke, as it's written in the third person. I only believe they spoke to Zodiac, not because Zodiac claimed this, but for one reason only- Armond Pelissetti and Donald Fouke are both responding to a dispatcher call and so are heading to Washington and Cherry. There is definitely 2 minutes missing from the Fouke timeline and I believe he is totally honest in the 1989 documentary that he didn't turn south on Cherry, he continued on to Arguello. My question has always been why is he heading this way, away from the crime scene, into West Pacific Avenue. Either he chose to abandon his duty and ignore his responsibility of heading to the crime scene or a third party directed him there. He clearly states this in the 1989 documentary, however this little diversion is omitted in the 2007 documentary, either deliberately or inadvertently. Why would Fouke head this way, as the timeline suggests he must have, any ideas Gregory, other than being directed there by Zodiac.
As for Eric Zelms, does it not strike you as funny, we had no statements in the following month at all from Eric Zelms: the incredible detailed description of Zodiac was supposedly from Fouke, who was actually driving and furthest from the sidewalk, but Zelms the passenger was totally free to scour the area from a better vantage point, yet absolutely nothing on his behalf. Even Fouke, talking about Zelms, stated in the scratch "I don't know if he saw the subject (Zodiac) or not." I am sorry but I find this unbelievable. Fouke apparently slowed down when they approached the suspect "5, 10, 15 seconds tops" , he gave a wonderful description, but supposedly Eric Zelms was asleep and never saw anything and Fouke never discussed anything with his own partner. Did Donald Fouke really make this pathetic statement or was it written on behalf of him by the SFPD eager to protect a rookie officer.

Alex

12/24/2015 06:07:51 pm

Agree with all the above Rich.

It is obvious to me that Fouke is not comfortable at all in parts of His recalling Oct 11, or the version He has been told to give the public to swallow, in 2007.
I see in things Don states and how He states it, A man who's not happy not content while sitting in front of that camera, and little things that, to other people may be nothing special or even go unnoticed, to me says a lot about the man they are coming from. Example?

"We turned around to Get to the Presidio. Our reasoning on that. . . well, MY reasoning on that was because. . ."

See this little comment here leads me to believe that Don is naturally an Honest man because He has to stop and correct Himself in the statement above because He remembers that Officially, Eric didn't see anyone nor anything, and so 'Our Reasoning on that' is amended to 'My reasoning on that' and the cause of this initial slip of the tongue is caused by Don's Unconscious Mind remembering the events as they truly were, but then His Conscious Mind remembers the lie told in an alternate, false claim.
Don's natural instinctive self, I take from this, is one of an honest and truthful man.

Alex

12/24/2015 06:23:41 pm

In other words, is Don Fouke a liar or does evidence suggest He deliberately falsified at least one claim in a Memo? Absolutely! No Question of that.
Is this His own free choice to do so and a 'Bent Cop' who will lie if He thinks He'll be seen in a better light, or is it the decision of another who's issued the order down a chain of command that 'This is what Happened, this is what the Dpt. are going to say happened...'

I know Don has lied and misrepresented situations and specifically the suspect last seen here when actually He's over there and this is from the Horses Mouth.
I have to conclude that yes, Don has Lied and Probably still is in relation to certain things. But No, it's not Him that has made a conscious choice of 'Ok, Now I shall make up a load of lies and claim them to be accurate truth because I can' but rather, He's the unwilling puppet of a puppet-master SFPD Order from above to say what they want Him to say.

Richard

12/25/2015 11:41:12 pm

One of the worst crimes anybody can commit in the USA is disrespecting a cop, you are likely to get 16 bullets pumped into you. The police departments in charge of these rogue officers are even worse than the officers themselves. Even with video evidence the police department will routinely put a different slant on the video that absolutely nobody else in the entire world can see. In a nutshell they are lying to exonerate the cop and their culpability even when video is clearly contradicting their claims and 99% of the time the murdering cop escapes any justice. No wonder the public are justifiably brassed off. So why is it so hard for people to believe the police departments would lie in 1969 without a camera in sight. This BMA story is the biggest cock and bull story since Loch Ness. To mistake Caucasian for black negro means you are either the biggest racist ever or you are tone deaf. Especially a negro with a crew cut and reddish blond hair.

Alex

12/26/2015 05:53:11 am

" Even with video evidence the police department will routinely put a different slant on the video that absolutely nobody else in the entire world can see."

Yes there was a recent case where A Cop conducting a traffic stop of a BMA Driver (Surprise Surprise) which ended with a bullet to the black youths head killing Him Instantly said in the aftermath that He was forced to use lethal force as the driver was 'speeding off' while the cop was reaching into through the open window and thus dragging Him along the road outside the vehicle.
This cop was wearing a body camera, and I assume that He assumed that when it was reviewed by His superiors that they'd supress the footage and just verbally confirm everything the cop had said happened, did happen.
In all fairness to that State's (Forget which State it was now) District Attorney, He view it, then called a public press conference with television screen at the ready and pressed the play button. Then after the footage played announced that He has issued an arrest warrant for the cop on the Charge of First Degree Murder. The cop never tried reaching into the vehicle, He was talking to the youth who clearly was getting more and more frightened of this White Cop wtith badge and gun and when the cop said "Step out of the vehicle NOW!" for which there was no legal requirement for the driver to do as cop had no grounds to to suspect Him of anything that would condone such a demand, the Black guy said with obvious and clear fear His voice '"No, Sir" and then started to inch forward in His car and I say inch because He never got about 5 or 10 MPH before cop drew His gun and shot Him straight in the head.

I did see a follow up news clip when the now Former Lawman was shuffling into Court handcuffed and shackled in Orange Jumpsuite and that is exactly where He should be.

But I don't just wanna sound Anti-America or Anti-American Police because when it comes to holding cops responsible for their actions, Britain is just as bad and probably worse because since 1990 over 150 men have died while either in the custody of police, or as a direct result of coming into contact with them and of these 150 deaths, the number of conviction's for any crime ranging from Murder to Gross Misconduct, incompetence? Zero! Never once has any cop been convicted of absolutely anything and this is when you have video evidence in once case showing 3 cops bring suspect into station front desk handcuffed, where He collapses in ffront of the Sgt. and they can be heard laughing declaring He's faking it and they'll just leave Him there. Half an hour or so later the Sgt. can be heard asking "Is He breathing" and a PC checks and discovers No, He's not breathing, He's Dead.
Then you have trigger tempered, discipline record for assault after assault showing Mr PC Simon Harwood not only filed assaulting Ian Tomlinson while Ian is walking away from Him with his back to theb Cop, but Harwood in Court facing Manslaughter (which this alone enraged me) did Himself admit when asked by the Prosecutor that yes, barring my actions and encounter with Mr Tomlinson, He would still be here today" which to me, you can't admit guilt and responsibility any clearer, was found not guilty. The day the verdict came to say I was livid is an understatement! I detest Harwood, He walked out of Court and passed a sobbing Tomlinson Family grinning as He did so.

Alex Lewis

1/8/2016 11:22:48 pm

" Did Donald Fouke really make this pathetic statement or was it written on behalf of him by the SFPD eager to protect a rookie officer."

No idea. If I thought for 2 minutes Don would speak to me I would phone but I just know He would neither appreciate a call with this as subject by a person from across the Ocean. And Pelissetti is out of the question after Butterfield allegedly recorded His and Armonds Telephone 'Between me and You' conversation.

But apparently Don's Wife is of Welsh Descent so if I rang. . .

Don: "Hello?"
Me: "Hello, is this the Fouke Off Residence?"
Don: "I'm Sorry?"
Me: "I should think you should be Mr Fouke off..,,"
Don "Who is this?"
Me "This is the Welsh Chap Speaking. I have grown rather angry with Fouke off for His telling lies. To prove this, I shall ring back over and over every time you hang up on me. Hey Blue Pig. . . " *Line goes dead*

I ain't ringing Army Pelissetti cause He'll be in another documentary again in 2021: "I responded to a telephone call that told me I was involved in a conspiracy an/or cover up. I, fortunately, was very angry and responded to Wales and was able to so with red face and crying, and got there very quickly."
I'll wait in the Alcove AP.

Richard

12/17/2015 12:39:13 am

Andy Warhol once said "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes." If I had been a major part of the Zodiac story and I was invited onto a 2007 documentary to accompany a major film, I believe I would have been tempted, as I believe Donald Fouke was, but in speaking freely tied himself up in knots with many contradictory statements. His situation was compounded by having to explain the order of events effectively handed to him by the SFPD 38 years earlier. Again I reiterate Donald Fouke is not the culprit here, I just believe he was handed an untenable fiction created by a less than truthful police department and in hindsight appearing in the documentary was a mistake. The biggest mistake he personally made was the claim of seeing the suspect heading up the stairs at 3712 Jackson Street, that not only flew in the face of everything he had previously stated, but was crucially omitted from the scratch. Taking 38 years to reveal this new information has to be taken with a big pinch of salt, especially considering he never returned to this address once he realized he was now looking for a white male and this suspect was subsequently matched to Zodiac, but was never followed through.

Greg H.

12/17/2015 10:07:37 pm

"The scratch of Donald Fouke was effectively a response to Zodiac orchestrated by the SFPD, not Donald Fouke, as it's written in the third person."

Is this the one you're referring to, Richard? http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/23/777.gif
The one here, as far as I know, is the initial memo signed by Fouke and is written in the first-person.. There, of course, may be others that I haven't looked at...

"There is definitely 2 minutes missing from the Fouke timeline and I believe he is totally honest in the 1989 documentary that he didn't turn south on Cherry, he continued on to Arguello. My question has always been why is he heading this way, away from the crime scene"

Well, looking at the map, Arguello is only one additional short block past Cherry while travelling along Jackson. If you take the left on Arguello as Jackson terminates you can then make another quick left and you're on Washington, approaching the crime scene. Is it possible that Cherry, running north and south was sealed off, placed on lockdown by Pellisetti immedately after the shooting? This is not likely, but still a guess.
Another possibility is that Fouke proceeds to the end of the Jackson and onto Arguello to canvas a greater surface area of terrain with the potential the suspect could have turned left on Jackson, rather than right (as we know now he did). I don't know what police procedure or protocol is when it comes to taking stock of the immediate aftermath of a crime scene nor do I know how proficient these officers were at their profession, but it could actually make good sense from the perspective of covering more ground to survey the remaining block of Jackson and then checking down Arguello for the suspect. After all, Pellisetti was already walking up Cherry; it may have been redundant to spend all their manpower on one street when the next block (Arguello) had yet to be looked at.

"The biggest mistake he personally made was the claim of seeing the suspect heading up the stairs at 3712 Jackson Street, that not only flew in the face of everything he had previously stated, but was crucially omitted from the scratch"

The scratch says that "a possible suspect had been seen going north on Maple Street and into the Presidio, The area of Julius Khan playground and a search was started which had negative results." There is a slight discrepency in that the 3712 address is omitted from Fouke's memo, but 'going north on Maple' would seem, in effect, to suggest something very similar to entering the property of 3712. It's a little fishy, yeah, not sure why Fouke doesn't outright mention this in the memo / scratch, but when you examine it in the more general sense (i.e. going north on Maple, the area of Julian Khan playground) the problematic elements seem less striking. Arguably Fouke when writing the scratch was more concerned in conveying the information that he had seen the suspect rather than relating the specifics of the encounter in a precise and scientific account. Perhaps he felt satisfied that in the subsequent search the entire area had been checked - including 3712 - and therefore this information was deemed less vital than the physical description of the suspect he had to offer.

No one knows for sure, Richard; any number of outcomes are possible. Often I'm more interested in looking into suspects rather the particulars of the crimes scenes. The case, I reason, might stand a better chance of being solved if we're somehow able to find the smoking gun evidence on a particular individual.

Richard

12/17/2015 10:37:15 pm

They are all good points Gregory and often over analyzing particular statements can ultimately be picked apart to find discrepancies. That is the scratch I was referring to. I always try to stay neutral on suspects as I have yet to find the smoking gun and don't think I ever will. I would love access to employee records of particular theaters (lamplighters) , vehicle databases, gun ownership, family records, etc, because along with the assumed photofit of our suspect and geographic profiling we may be able to narrow down the field to likely names, similar to you wanting to access the wing walker issue list, unfortunately here in England this is virtually impossible via the internet, it needs boots on the ground and even then do these records exist. Unfortunately there are maybe two ways this case may be solved, DNA or the Zodiac was dumb enough to encrypt his name somewhere in his cards and ciphers, although I doubt even the last one is grounds for conviction without corroborating evidence to back it up. The search goes on.

Alex Lewis

12/19/2015 05:58:55 pm

Well in response to the notion of Fouke, Armond, and/or SFPD in general and the idea that all this inconsistency and contradiction can be explained by innocent means, ie, it not being a deliberate a concerted effort by any of the Dpt. to cover anything up, I'd just say this:

The non sinister explanations, innocent mistakes, false memory etc all these things I didn't ignore in looking into them in an unconscious effort to want this to be a deliberate effort by the SFPD to lie and misrepresent the facts. Believe me, I would much prefer the innocent mistakes or faulty memory theory to be the truth opposed to a scenario of close-rank fictional fact's and deliberate withholding of known details because if it's not a deliberate tactic to tell the public lies about the true events of Oct 11 then the truth is available to find somewhere. If the truth of what happened that night is deliberately being kept in the shadows by Officials then we have Zero chance of finding the truth because it is not even somewhere amongst the many numerous incorrect and false scenarios.

I see many people over several years say such things as "I don't believe the San Francisco Police Dpt. would lie about what happened, then cover it up, that's just not likely."

For me, to use a metaphor.
The non cynical, non deliberate cover up is like a 1000 piece jig-saw puzzle that gives us all 1000 pieces but without the box with picture on it. We'll put it together it just may be a tad more difficult without the box as we don't know what we are looking for or expecting to see when all pieces are in place. That being said, we have the required 1000 correct puzzle pieces and its just a matter of time before we see the big picture.
If we have the same 1000 piece Jig-Saw without a box and this time 250 pieces available then it's literally impossible to ever see the bigger picture until the day comes that we are handed the missing 750 pieces

Richard

12/21/2015 04:14:47 am

To me it is certainly understandable that memories fade, but in this case the officers involved must have recounted their stories so many times they are almost second nature, set in stone. The problem occurs when the fish you caught becomes larger and larger with each passing year, then it becomes a shark, then a whale. Additions to stories years later should be regarded with suspicion. Zodiac was either last seen heading up 3712 Jackson Street or heading north on Maple, it cannot be both. He was heading into Arguello or Cherry, it cannot be both. He either was surprised by Armond Pelissetti updating him on the white male or it was received on the radio, it cannot be both.etc This is when your accounts will be questioned.

Alex

12/25/2015 02:40:58 am

Hey Rich you know we've discussed many times the many oddities of Pacific Heights paying specific attention myself to Zodiac's ignorance and non use of the entrance through into the Presidio at Cherry Street when He surely knew the police were responding due to Pelissetti already close to the scene as the radio alert is given and He then responds directly to that corner with lights and siren.

However, recently after a combining of Graysmiths claim that the encounter between Zodiac and Fouke took place as Fouke is on Jackson Street approaching Cherry, not Maple and then realising that Zodiac, if stood at Maple could not have seen the police car Go around the corner of Arguello onto West Pacific, this now does offer a possible reason for Zodiac to refrain from using that entrance at Cherry. . .

If Zodiac gets to the top of Cherry St and is about to walk out through the Intersection and across to the entrance through the presidio wall via Cherry He glances to His right (as One would do prior to stepping out to cross a road) He observes Fouke who is 3, 4 maybe 5 houses distance and therefore basically right there almost upon Him then He is, if He wishes to remain inconspicuous, not likely to dash across toward and through the wall entrance right in front of A Cop.

I post this as simply a possibility to consider and, as always, this explains why He may or may not have taken a course of action but only theoretically.

Alex

12/25/2015 04:25:24 am

Oh God, not another version....

You know Rich Don's ';Proceeded to Arguello Street' vs 'Turned Southbound on Cherry Street' dual versions of the same event? Well now in this interview with Fouke, the answer as to which street He went toward and onto is, apparently, Both streets. And Armond is now insistent that He encounters Don and Eric while He's just turning from Jackson to MAPLE. Which would put the 'Man with Dog' encounter and Fouke pulling up being simultaneous and both happening at the same time and place for Armond.

I think I am going to go now Rich as I have an overwhelming desire to bang my head against a wall somewhere and so I shall leave you with the link to devour the story yourself. . . .

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/reply/91364#.Vn0y6nYrHIW

Richard

12/26/2015 12:09:51 am

"I post this as simply a possibility to consider and, as always, this explains why He may or may not have taken a course of action but only theoretically."
That is logical based on the encounter occurring somewhere near the upper reaches of Jackson/Cherry. Only a fool would start attracting unwanted attention with cops only a few feet away. I still err on the fact the top end of Cherry is masked by trees and bushes and an exit route is obscured, meaning Zodiac simply wasn't aware he could escape over the dividing wall at the top of Cherry, or likely Maple either, hence his venture into Spruce. If Zodiac was a Vallejoan and extremely familiar that courting couples frequented the area around Lake Herman and Blue Rock Springs, then it is possible that he may have worked in Frisco, but his complete familiarity with the area limited and simply didn't realize access to the park from the top of Cherry.

"If Zodiac gets to the top of Cherry St and is about to walk out through the Intersection and across to the entrance through the presidio wall via Cherry He glances to His right (as One would do prior to stepping out to cross a road) He observes Fouke who is 3, 4 maybe 5 houses distance and therefore basically right there almost upon Him then He is, if He wishes to remain inconspicuous, not likely to dash across toward and through the wall entrance right in front of A Cop."

This undoubtedly would be foolish here or at Maple. Fouke and Pelissetti both seemed to be aware of the access points to the park, as they both alluded to in the 2007 documentary, the question is.. was Zodiac. If Zodiac had wallowed in Paul Stine's blood, smothering himself from head to toe as some people have said and he was aware of the Cherry exit, he surely would have taken it, not amble down Jackson for one block, dripping in blood. If he was aware of the Cherry exit and still chose to ignore it, he most surely wasn't covered in blood and felt more confident. But if he wasn't covered in blood and didn't know about the Cherry exit, then obviously walking down Jackson is nothing unusual.

Alex

12/26/2015 10:06:51 am

"I still err on the fact the top end of Cherry is masked by trees and bushes and an exit route is obscured, meaning Zodiac simply wasn't aware he could escape over the dividing wall at the top of Cherry"

Yeah this idea as come up a few times and I always think 'Each to their own and all that, but just can't see it.'
I mean the majority believe He wasn't familiar with the area, let alone lived around there, and this, as you said, would account for His being not having any idea that it existed as an entrance. Well ok but then if you assume this the likely reason, then by default you then also have to assume that:

Here is a man who is not from, nor even has a reasonable familiarity with that area and the only thing He knows it that it has a street called maple, you can run away via it because it goes somewhere. So, it's the big night, cabbie shot, Maple located He drops through the wall onto West Pacific Avenue and gives it the fist pump "Take that SFPigD!" Then, all of a sudden. . .

He realizes no idea where He now is or which way to go because He does not knows this area at all and obviously hasn't bothered scouting in and around there because He is clueless that Cherry has the same entrance,.
stading there on West Pacific now wondering where He is and having no idea cause it all dark now and everything but He better get a move on, here come all the pigs
So He just runs aimlessly into the open grounds with no clue where He's going, No idea where He will come out onto a road at, that is He ever gets there because He'll probably have a heart attack with fright as He see's coming toward Him 50 US Soldiers. "Fu*k Me! Shoot one little victims these days, and here come the F***** Army!

I know I've used a bit of comedy there Rich but the point is serious. I think you'd agree Rich that He finding Cherry had the same entrance as Maple would be something the most basic of scouting arounf the area would unearth. So if He hasn't done the most basic things to familiarise Himself with that general area, then He isn't going to run around the Presidio to know the best route and take that route on the night.

You know me Rich, respect eveyones right to opinion and acknowledge that until Zodiac tell us, we'll never know for sure so you could be right. However there three or four logical reasons or answers as to why Z doesn't go through Cherry and while 'Didn't know it was there' is one of them, it it, for me and my personal opinion, the least likely to be the true reason.

Alex

12/26/2015 10:40:14 am

I mean for my money, He, Zodiac, tries too hard not to convince us that He knows nothing of that area, completely clueless the details of such things as street names, the Park Area etc that He overdoes it. And it is the way He attempts to do it also, never directly speaking of him not knowing the area details, but indirectly by subtle hint's using the art of suggestion. If I say to you Rich "I disappeared over the US Border down in Texas into the other Country' and I am pretending I've never been here before to Texas and so I don't know where, after 'Going North on Border and into the unknown' and so I rather than I jst blurting out "I Swear, I don't have a clue what Country I am in' when you'd never even accused me of it because then that will be questioned...."Why does He keep saying Rich He doesn't what Country He's in when you haven't even asked where He is, nor implied you know He does know where He is?
So I'll just drop hint after Hint after Hint using suggestion, and again, I already know that I will make the suggestion, which will be accepted

Richard

12/26/2015 11:16:39 am

I take on board what you are saying Mr Welsh, but I will expand what I think. I believe he worked in San Francisco and knew the general layout of the area, but not the intricate knowledge of shortcuts that only locals know. He may logically have planned this attack and escape route by looking at a map. This map would show all the relevant roads and Presidio Park, but it wouldn't show you that you can clamber over the dividing wall at Cherry or Maple, which both appear dead ends. But Spruce is a clear line of sight into the park. My only problem with this is like you said in a previous post, why then would Zodiac not initially direct the taxicab to Washington and Spruce, and a direct escape route, rather than Washington and Maple. That I am not sure of at this juncture. But one possibility is he did thoroughly check out the area as you stated or did know the access points at Cherry and Maple. He decided in advance on an escape through the Maple dividing wall, which is why he directed Stine to Washington and Maple, a direct and quick escape up Maple into the Presidio. But something went wrong and he had to divert the taxicab to Washington and Cherry, either too many people on the Washington and Maple intersection or the taxicab went out of control as he shot Stine. He however still knows that he can escape through the Cherry dividing wall. He gets to the top of Cherry, but what dissuaded him from using this exit. It could be something simple, a man in his garden, a family returning home after a day out unpacking the trunk, voices coming from the area, a couple talking, a car preparing to pull out, anything. It would look strange if Zodiac gallivanted through the bushes and clambered over the wall and his description may be later revealed by any number of these witnesses. Remember he was unaware of the three teenagers at this point. So Zodiac now has to change his plan and walk to the Maple exit, however more bad luck, up rolls Fouke and Zelms, he doesn't want to be seen by them entering the park, so he continues on to Spruce. You said previously why enter the park here and then direct the cop car to WPA to may be spotted later. If so the best option is to continue on down Jackson to Spruce exacting greater distance from the police car. Possibly Zodiac feinted to enter Maple when the cop car pulled up, knowing that later they may realize he was a viable suspect and search the area of the park and dividing wall by Maple, so continued on down Jackson as the police pulled away. Then 2 minutes later in the distance he hears and sees the flashing lights of the patrol car enter back onto Jackson by Cherry after Fouke's search. This is visible as you said, it is a clear line of sight from Spruce, Zodiac can see the red light and siren from its brief search on WPA. Fouke meets Pelissetti, meanwhile Zodiac dives into the park via Spruce. This is now all possible and explains his in depth knowledge of all the dividing walls and park, but the sequence of events forced him to adapt.

Richard

12/26/2015 11:29:34 am

It also always struck me as strange to cross onto the northern side of Jackson facing oncoming traffic, when the south side provides more anonymity. However if he is heading towards the Cherry dividing wall and spots somebody, it is then logical to backtrack and rejoin Jackson on the north side to proceed.

Alex link

12/30/2015 09:17:52 am

"It also always struck me as strange to cross onto the northern side of Jackson facing oncoming traffic, when the south side provides more anonymity."

Which is exactly why I theorise Rich that Zodiac is about to cross the Intersection at Cherry and Jackson and cross to duck from view into the Presidio via that Entrance at Cherry St when, just as He is crossing, He see's a cop car thundering toward Him coming up Jackson.
And as such, He is then forced into changing His plan and route to appear to police He is simply crossing the road to walk down the North Side of the Street knowing that to admit He was crossing about to duck through the Wall into the Presidio would heighten suspicion.

Richard

12/26/2015 01:05:01 am

If we work backwards Alex on the assumption Donald Fouke saw Zodiac at the intersection of Jackson and Maple, then this is approximately 1 minute after Fouke received the initial dispatch. It takes approximately 1 minute to travel from Presidio Avenue/Washington to this intersection. It definitely takes Zodiac 3 minutes to walk to this intersection. That means Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti received the initial radio message 2 minutes after Zodiac left the taxicab. This means Pelissetti, if he took 1 minute to arrive at the Washington and Cherry crime scene, Zodiac was now at the Jackson and Maple intersection. By the time Pelissetti had ushered the kids to the alcove, retook the new description, checked on Paul Stine and issued the so called new description, this would be about 2 further minutes. This means Zodiac is now 5 minutes away or 2 further minutes beyond Jackson and Maple and Pelissetti was never close to Zodiac. Zodiac was long gone.
If Donald Fouke encountered Zodiac somewhere by the Jackson and Cherry intersection, it is now 90 seconds after the initial radio broadcast. It takes Zodiac 1 minute to reach the top of Cherry from the crime scene But 90 seconds ago Zodiac would still be en scene, probably just exiting the taxicab before wiping down the taxicab. That would mean the three teenagers would have rang in while the Zodiac was still inside the cab removing Paul Stine's shirt, as the dispatcher still had to take down the details and relay the message to officers. Crucially though the three teenagers gave Zodiac's facial features and height, something they could not have done while he was inside the cab. The three teenagers were therefore relaying their description of Zodiac when he was wandering around the taxicab. For the dispatcher to take down those details and then relay this information to Donald Fouke would have to occurred almost instantaneously to travel 90 seconds from Presidio Avenue to the top of Cherry in the equivalent 90 seconds it took Zodiac 90 seconds to wipe down the outside of the taxicab and travel to the top of Cherry. If however it took 1.5 minute for the dispatcher to write down the details and relay it to Fouke, then he took a further 1 minute to reach the Jackson and Maple intersection, this gives Zodiac 2.5 minutes to be in the position of approaching Jackson and Maple where supposedly their paths crossed.

Richard

12/26/2015 01:33:28 am

In other words Alex the order of events described by the three teenagers to the dispatcher is Zodiac exited the taxicab front passenger door, travelled around to wipe the driver side door and then headed off up Cherry Street. The only time they would have got a full frontal view of his face and height, when he was approaching the driver side door. From this point on it takes Zodiac no longer than 30 seconds to reach Cherry (probably less), then 1 minute to reach the top of Cherry. At the point Zodiac is in full view approaching the driver side of the taxicab the teenagers are now relaying the Zodiac's height, facial features, hair colour and clothes and the dispatcher is noting this down. By the time this has been done this Zodiac is surely on his merry way up Cherry. By the time the dispatcher then gets to the radio to relay the description an absolute minimum of 30 seconds must have elapsed. Zodiac is now half way up Cherry 30 seconds from its northern edge. Donald Fouke cannot travel from Presidio Avenue/Washington to the top of Cherry in 30 seconds unless he has a Batmobile.

Alex Lewis

12/26/2015 11:04:33 am

Well Rich not A lot I can say I 'Know' for sure, but I can say I Know that all these lies and contradiction and Z never being held accountable does, to this very day, still to this day, continue to hurt and cause pain to the victims family's because Stines Sister, Carol, was speaking about the case on Oct 11 of this year, and what losing her Brother did to her and her family. She said in one comment "I HATE THAT HE WAS NEVER CAUGHT, IT HURTS BAD EVEN TODAY." Then she said Her other Brother Joe had plans to buy a fairly large and successful business but said, after someone asked did He end up doing so after Paul was murderer "Good God No. Joe loved Paul, and after He was murdered Joe took to drinking bad."

Point of interest: It came up several times the claim that the teens had seen Paul fighting andotr struggling with his killer and the second time it did carol said "Like I said when this was asked earlier, Paul would not fight! I know Him just like most other sisters know their brothers and I'm telling you Paul was not a fighter.

She was also asked was she worried or scared the killer may come after Her too, and she replied: "Yes, and so were the police. They had Toschi & Armstrong assigned to watch me and I could not go anywhere for a couple of Months unless they were with me."

Richard

12/28/2015 02:11:43 am

Think about this one Alex to prove Fouke and Zelms stopped Zodiac. Donald Fouke has two differing stories, 1. He got the radio broadcast at Presidio Ave/Washington and travelled to Cherry 2.He got the radio broadcast at Presidio Ave/Washington and travelled to Arguello St.
We both know that only the Arguello claim makes any sense.
But here are some facts: Fouke claimed he got the update to a white male in Arguello. It takes 2 minutes at 30 mph to travel from Presidio Ave/Wahington to Arguello. That means from the time of the original broadcast to the second broadcast is 2 minutes. Since both Fouke and Pelissetti received the initial broadcast at the identical time, then this means Pelisetti gave the amended description 2 minutes after the initial broadcast, allowing Fouke to receive it at Arguello. The crucial question is could Pelissetti arrive at the crime scene (estimated at 1 minute), park up on the middle of the intersection, walk over to the kids, usher them back across the street into the alcove, retake the description and direction of Zodiac's departure from the scene, walk over to check on Paul Stine, then call in the amended description, that is then relayed to Donald Fouke in 2 minutes. If all this takes longer than 2 minutes, then for Fouke to have received this amended description in Arguello (which we already know is 2 mins from Pres/Wash), then he must have been delayed en route, meaning unquestionably he must have stopped and talked to Zodiac. By Fouke's own admission he took the amended description at the top of Arguello, so the longer Pelissetti takes to amend the description, the longer Fouke must have been delayed by Zodiac. If Fouke spoke to Zodiac for 30 seconds, then it took him 2 mins and 30 seconds to reach Arguello, meaning it was 2 mins and 30 seconds between Pelissetti receiving the original broadcast and the giving out the second by the dispatcher. It simply doesn't take 2 mins 30s to reach Arguello without delays. The question being could Pelissetti only take 2 minutes between receiving the initial broadcast and relay the updated description to be issued by the dispatcher, with all he did at the scene.

Alex

12/30/2015 08:54:53 am

"The crucial question is could Pelissetti arrive at the crime scene (estimated at 1 minute), park up on the middle of the intersection, walk over to the kids, usher them back across the street into the alcove, retake the description and direction of Zodiac's departure from the scene, walk over to check on Paul Stine, then call in the amended description, that is then relayed to Donald Fouke in 2 minutes."

Well this whole incident could be given some sort of clarification or affirmation by the three on scene teens/witnesses who initially set all this police response in motion by calling it in. In my opinion, it isn't by accident or coincidence that these witnesses have never spoke of the incident in almost half a decade post it having taken place. They could answer so much for us, such as:

Q. As the first Officer arrived on scene, did you give Him information that suspect was White, to which He ran to the radio to update over the air and then proceeded to Walk after the suspect down Cherry?

I think Armond ran to His radio Rich, but it had nothing to do with correcting an error in initial Race of Suspect. You know why I think He dashed for the radio? To let all other responders know that crucial extra info He's just learned from the Witnesses at the scene and as such broadcasts something like:
'All units be advised, witness at scene states Subject has left the scene on foot along Cherry Street toward Jackson and did so 20, maybe 30 seconds ago. Any Unit close requested to respond along Jackson Street and BOLO for the subject who should be somewhere in the vicinity.'

Richard

12/30/2015 10:08:40 am

Yes I agree we both concur the BMA is fiction, but the update nevertheless had to have happened after 2 minutes. As you said it was likely extra info. Presidio Heights is notable by
1. The three teenagers never contributing to any of Tom Voigt's task force meetings or giving any TV interviews etc
2 The dispatcher never being highlighted beyond dispatcher, yet we know Dave Slaight and Nancy Slover well.
3 The 2 page police report never mentions anything to do with a BMA or even that Pelissetti went on the radio.
In fact even more damning is the police report only states "Ambulance was summoned, code three, and other units were requested for an immediate search of the area. Description was obtained from reportees, who's observation point was directly across the street (50ft) and unobstructed. Description was broadcast and numerous units responded to institute a search of the area."
Crucially never mentioning an amended description, although this was clearly evident by the time the police report was typed. It could be said this was too embarrassing to place in the police report, but their hand was forced by Zodiac's claim 1 month later, when they had to concoct an explanation. But I'm afraid this omission is likely, as you said, because the BMA description was something that never happened.

Alex

12/31/2015 09:58:02 pm

"No coincidence these witnesses have Never spoke of the incident in almost half a Decade??"

It's rubbing off on Me it would seem, I am taking on personality traits associated with Armond and Don....Oh God.....HELP!

Don doesn't know which street He's on, Armond doesn't know who He's questioning on Maple and I have no idea how many years have elapsed Post Stine Murder.
Apparently, I am unwilling to accept more than 5 years have passed and we are now in the swinging Mid 70's.

Rich if I start asking am I on the correct website and start posting comments and threads about The San Francisco BTK I must be dismissed at once as 'Too far gone, a no hoper.'

PS....I did, of course, mean half a Century.

Richard

12/28/2015 05:04:06 am

Another thing we haven't quite touched on in any great detail is the fact Pelissetti stated in the Zodiac 2007 documentary that he arrived back after his search shortly before the ambulance arrived. In the police report Paul Stine was pronounced dead at 10.10 pm, so according to Pelissetti must have arrived back to the scene at 10.09 pm approximately. The time to walk normally from the crime scene to Jackson and Maple is 3 minutes, to walk back is 3 minutes (total 6 mins), but Pelissetti is checking all the parked cars and alcoves and spoke to the man walking the dog. He couldn't have done this in much less than 8 minutes. Then add this to the time he took from the initial dispatch radio message to the point he started his walk up Cherry, this therefore has to be 3 minutes. Why; because the total would be 11 minutes. He got the initial radio broadcast at 9.58 pm and as stated above arrived back to see the ambulance arriving at 10.09 pm. The difference is 11 minutes as expected.
But as you can work out Alex the longer he spends searching, the less time he has to arrive at the scene and leave the scene. Conversely the shorter the time he searches the more time he has to arrive at the scene and leave the scene. But the search simply cannot be less than 8 minutes, meaning the time between receiving the initial radio message and updating the description to a white male must at least 3 minutes before departing the scene. This would in view of Donald Fouke needing only 2 minutes to reach Arguello, before he receives the update, again cements the idea of him talking to and stopping Zodiac.

Alex

12/30/2015 09:08:44 am

I agree Rich and I think its more difficult a task to find something in this sequence that they, Don and Armond, have not contradicted each other and/or themselves over than you can regarding something that has always been consistent and unchanging.

I mean Pelissetti declares "I briefed Insp. Toschi, who seemed to be taking the lead, as we walked over toward the car and I assured Him that nobody had contaminated the scene...."

How can He assure Toschi of this when He claims via His own Mouth He left the scene for a good 5 to ten minutes within minutes of pulling up to it?
I briefed the Chief of Police and I ensured Him nobody had contaminated the crime scene in Manchester, while I myself were sat in my living room on South Wales. I can't make this claim or comment and ensure the Chief of such a thing unless I was present at the scene to oversee it from my time of arrival there to The Chief Himself Turning up. If I had wandered off for a walk around the block for 5 to ten minutes duration then I don't know what is happening back at the scene.
Ok He could be acting on Frank Peda's declaring nobody has come near the cab but again, other than Peda getting a Cameo mention as to who Armond was paired with that night, Peda doesn't get mentioned once thereafter almost as if He isn't even there.

Richard

12/28/2015 10:32:13 am

This also means when Pellissetti updates Fouke on the white male at Arguello, Fouke having met Zodiac shortly before, continues onto West Pacific Avenue. Fouke briefly scans the area of Julius Khan Park and then after seeing nobody retraces his steps back to the top of Cherry, where he meets Pelissetti, 90 seconds to 2 minutes later.
Pelissetti said in the 2007 documentary when he got to the top of Cherry he had to make a decision on which way to turn, but since he was on the east side of Cherry, he turns down Jackson Street. I think this is incorrect, because here he met Fouke, and Fouke informed him of the white male he had passed about 2+ minutes ago, which is in actual fact why he went this way. Pelissetti then travels down Jackson cautiously, where he meets the man with the dog and asks him if he had seen anybody suspicious, which he hadn't, because Zodiac was long gone. Using the timeline Zodiac had passed Jackson and Maple 5 minutes ago and was either nestled in the park or heading over the Golden Gate Bridge.

Alex Lewis link

12/30/2015 09:38:43 am

Well, when this incident on Oct. 11 is discussed as to all the inconsistencies, contradictory statements and outright amendments as to what actually happened that night, I think back to that Latin Legal Maxim in Law, One which I absolutely believe in passionately, that is: FIAT JUSTITIA RUAT CAELUM, or LET JUSTICE BE DONE, THOUGH THE HEAVENS FALL.

The writer and founder of this legal Maxim has nothing but good intent in what the Maxim saying in that it signifies the belief that justice must be realized regardless of consequences.

And so, when Berry Harden's written comment of 'When I write the true ending (to this Case), it will shake the Earth' I say then let the Earth be shaken, if that be the result of the truth being made known then so be it. Let the Heavens themselves fall as a result of Justice being realized for Paul Stine and the other victims, and in this ides, I truly and whole heartedly believe!

Alex link

12/30/2015 10:01:36 am

Law and the Legal Maxims have been a long time interest of mine, and there are numerous Maxims that cnbe applied to Oct.11 and the People involved and here are a mere few:

PLUS VALET UNUS OCCULATUS TESTIS, QUAM AURITI DECEM which translates as ONE EYE WITNESS IS STRONGER THAN TEN HEARSAYS.
The above Maxim would suggest that the witness with IDENTIFIED the murderer of Paul Stine be given far more attention than the hearsay and contradiction strewn accounts of Fouke and Pelissetti.

QUI NON IMPROBAT, APPROBAT translated states HE WHO DOES NOT DISAPPROVE, APPROVES.
Anyone with knowledge of crucial info that is being withheld and does not speak up, by His silence, condones and supports the act of deceit.

However, this legal maxim immediately makes me think of Don Fouke: "No man ought to be burdened in consequence of another's act. "
Finally: "
They who consent to an act, and they who do it, shall be visited with equal punishment.

Gross negligence is held equivalent to intentional wrong.

The intention amounts to nothing unless some effect follows.

Punishment is due if the words of an oath be false.

Misconduct binds its own authors. It is a never-failing axiom that everyone is accountable only for his own offence or wrong

Alex

12/30/2015 10:17:24 am

And I wonder if you can spot the maxim above that may lead an SFPD to invent the BMA scenario?
Yep, it's the: "Gross negligence is held equivalent to intentional wrong."

So anyone who suggests that SFPD just would not lie and make up a false version of events in order to cover up a huge goof, there's your reason why they absolutely would have cause and motive to do exactly that!

Richard

12/30/2015 10:22:11 am

This so called BMA went out during the initial radio dispatch, but we never hear or see any documented accounts by Peda or Zelms or any other police officers that night, including the dispatcher to verify any of this and Caucasian doesn't sound like Black Male Adult or Negro Male Adult even remotely.

Richard

12/30/2015 10:24:12 am

Correction:White doesn't sound like black.

Richard

12/30/2015 10:26:28 am

Furthermore a dispatcher worth their salt, would always run through the details a second time and ask for confirmation.

Alex

1/1/2016 03:08:06 am

" but we never hear or see any documented accounts by Peda or Zelms or any other police officers that night,"

That's the exact odd fact that I was thinking if recently. It's as if Two the two Patrol Unites of Two cops in each were designated One spokesman from each, Don and Armond.

Zelms, well He knows nothing and was witness to the same nothing so He wouldn't be able to Help or clarify anything anyway say Don and the SFPD......bot not Eric's Widow who has no loyalty or cause to lie about her recently murdered young Husband and, in fact, would likely do the contrary and want to Honour Her Late Husbands Memory by stating that of which He told Her as to what happened that Night. However, the instant Eric dies, all this becomes 'Hearsay', not admissible in A Court of Law. I, however, choose to believe Her that Eric said they spoke to a White Male that night and did so 'Face to Face' because she Has no cause to lie and misrepresent and defame Eric and also, it would also be consistent with Zodiac's claim to have been 'Called over' to the cops when He converses briefly with them.

Armond awards Frank Peda a Cameo Name Drop In 2007 by simply stating "I was working with an Officer who's since Deceased, Frank Peda. An excellent police officer...." Then Pada disappears and Armond recalls Himself doing absolutely everything from speaking to the witnesses, issuing updates, checking the victim to see if life may be preserved and embarking on a walking foot 'chase' of the suspect.

Chronicle Staff Report
Published 4:00 am, Monday, December 14, 1998

" A retired San Francisco police officer was killed at 9:45 yesterday morning when the car he was driving was broadsided by another motorist as he pulled out of a parking lot at Ocean Beach along the Great Highway near Sloat Boulevard.

The victim was identified as Frank Peda, 63, of San Francisco.

The other motorist, a 55-year- old woman, suffered a broken arm and was taken to a hospital. She was not identified.

Police, who are conducting an investigation, suspect that the victim "may have not backed up with due caution," said one officer.

It does not appear that the other motorist will be cited for any driving violation, police said.

Richard

12/30/2015 10:48:41 am

You made a good point in a previous article Alex about Zodiac having travelled quite a distance from the crime scene when Pelissetti arrived at Washington and Cherry, so why pursue on foot being cautious, there was no way he was ever going to catch him up to make an arrest. He said he checked the parked cars and alcoves. He knew at this point it was murder, did he seriously believe the murderer would travel around the corner and sit in an alcove or behind a parked car for 3 minutes and when he arrived, jumped out and said boo !. I know you cannot be too careful and I may be being harsh, but in view of the headstart Zodiac had, using a police vehicle makes more sense. Got another thought I will post shortly, we haven't discussed it yet and I would like your expert opinion.

Alex Lewis

12/30/2015 02:15:34 pm

Well I contend it makes sense on two levels for Armond to get back into His vehicle and go after the suspect.

No.1, As you said, The Suspect Armond is going after is Armed & willing to use that firearm, and Armond knows this because He's checked on Stine. So, your personal safety would always take precedence over anything else and it's simply far safer to be in a vehicle while chasing an armed suspect because any shots fired at you then are shot at a moving target that has metallic outer sheileding that may deflect or stop a bullet.

And No.2, The teens no doubt told Armond that the man responsible has just, no more than 30 seconds ago, walked off down Cherry and so this head start on foot is big advantage. 30 seconds on foot for a walking suspect pursued by a 30 to 40 MPH Police Cruizer is no Advantage to suspect at all.

I mean Armond admits freely that He briefly conversed with the teens and then dashed to his Radio and I contend it was to update all other units that the suspect is on foot, last seen going down Cherry Street no more than 45 seconds to 1 minute ago, and any available units responding asked to do so via that route.
In any event, whatever the update over the radio was, He's giving it from the radio in His prowl car so surely it makes sense that He also uses that car to Himself pursue the suspect the kids said just 30 seconds ago left the scene.

I myself, although not stating as such publically, have long suspected even believed, that Zodiac only abandons the cab as a direct result of hearing Armond activate His siren which we know is in close proximity to the crime scene itself when He does.

Alex Lewis

12/30/2015 02:33:04 pm

It's just me Rich....

Armond says He arrives at the scene, speaks to the kids briefly, and ushers them back to their home. Gets on radio to issue update before He Walks over to check the scene and victim, discovers He's deceased.
Q. Wheres Frank and what's He doing during all this? I'd surely expect if and when Armond is ushering the teens back to that Alcove, Frank would be checking Stine or vice versa. You have two cops on scene and only one doing everything that needs doing? Speaking to witnesses, issuing update broadcasts, checking the scene and victim etc all the while the other cop is doing what?

There is no logical reason I could ever think of in my mind as to why Armond would go after the suspect on foot if He has access to a police car.

And here's the possible answer. Armonds lack of mentioning Frank Peda at the scene, and recounting how He Himself undertook all the on scene tasks seems to suggest that Frank isn't there. This would explain why He doesn't mention Him ONCE after starting to recount His arriving on scene and detailing how He alone undertook the tasks required to be carried out at the scene. This also would give Armond the one and only logical reason or need for Himself to go after a suspect on foot, because He had no car available due to Frank either hearing the Witnesses, maybe even Armond Himself advised Frank, that the Suspect has just seconds ago went that way down Cherry on foot

Richard

12/30/2015 12:03:31 pm

This is what Pelissetti said at the start of the 2007 documentary "We responded to a radio call, told us that a cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry and Washington Streets." This is the present tense, had the attack finished and Zodiac had already departed the scene, I am certain the dispatcher would have relayed his direction of travel at this point to all officers, and some of them would have not only been directed to the crime scene, but some towards the Jackson and Cherry intersection, to intercept Zodiac, but they weren't, because I am assuming Zodiac hadn't left the taxicab at this point. Armond Pelissetti stated he got to the corner very quickly. Had this been the case then Zodiac must have left the scene seconds earlier, probably hearing Pelissetti's red light and siren approaching. But Pelissetti didn't immediately pursue the suspect (probably because he checked on Paul Stine), but also because he didn't know where the suspect went, as the attack was still going on when he received the initial radio call. Had the dispatcher informed him that Zodiac had left the scene in the direction of Cherry, other officers hearing the direction of Zodiac would surely have descended towards the top part of Cherry, including Fouke, but this area was never pinpointed as Zodiac's likely direction of travel. Had it been, then Donald Fouke's claim of not stopping a white male would be even more unbelievable. But there is a big problem, Armond Pelissetti said as he quickly arrived at the scene and parked on the intersection, the three teenagers were heading towards the taxicab and he ushered them back to the alcove. This is clearly when he took the additional information of Zodiac's direction of travel from the teenagers. But why were the three teenagers here (Pelissetti stated 3 children), when a moment ago they were relaying real time events to the dispatcher of a taxicab driver being assaulted. Surely if they were detailing the attack and their location, surely when Zodiac departed the scene, they must have relayed this information over the phone, or surely wouldn't the dispatcher have said "what direction did the suspect head after leaving the cab", after all this is an obvious question to ask But since the direction of travel of Zodiac wasn't sent in the initial radio call, wouldn't this mean the kids ended their conversation with the dispatcher before the Zodiac had left the taxicab and gone up Cherry. However we are told the teenagers saw Zodiac heading up Cherry, so either they would have told this to the dispatcher as they saw the events unfold in real time or surely the dispatcher would have kept them on the line asking what was happening as they were watching it. But in the initial radio call neither Fouke or Pelissetti could have been aware of Zodiac's direction of travel, as well as any other responding officers, otherwise the dispatcher would have directed at least some of them to the top of Cherry, which the dispatcher didn't do. Does this mean the kids failed to mention the Zodiac's direction or the dispatcher failed to ask, very strange considering they are relaying real time events outside their window. Donald Fouke or Pelissetti never mentioned knowing Zodiac's direction of travel when they took the initial radio call, had Donald Fouke known this, his direction up Jackson would make perfect sense, however passing a man of any colour without stopping him wouldn't, especially considering Zodiac had left the crime scene only a short time ago.

Richard

12/30/2015 12:26:29 pm

It also chucks the whole timeline into the air, if Zodiac had just left the Washington and Cherry intersection shortly before Pelissetti arrived and he say took 1 minute to arrive, because Fouke took the initial radio call at the same time as Pelissetti, he would be 1 minute into his journey at Jackson and Maple and after 90 seconds at Cherry. Zodiac at 90 seconds from the crime scene, would place him just past the Jackson and Cherry intersection, not at Jackson and Maple that takes 3 minutes to reach, backing up nearer to yours and Graysmith's claim. It all depends on the relaying of information by the anonymous dispatcher.

Alex

12/31/2015 11:22:04 am

I think they've tied themselves in knots of confusion they've told so many differing version. . .

"We Proceeded to The Next Block which was Arguello, however, I may at some later stage revise this to 'Turned Southbound on Cherry' where I shall declare I muttered to One Foot Patrolman Armond Vincent Pelissetti "Oh, Shit....that was the suspect" which will instantaneously denied by said Officer Harm-ond Fell-off-Settee in stating "Uhh, He did not mention to me that He had seen anybody at that point..."

I wish someone would get these two together in a room and ask each, "Do you both know just how absolutely and totally stupid and idiotic you both look with your contradicting each other every other sentence? Donald, you can't remember where you are, what street your on and which street you go directly onto and suspect was on street but wait, was it steps....your obviously off your head on LSD.
Mr Pelissetti,Sir, you speed to the scene and screech to a stop and your fellow patrol officer Mr F Peda can't be bothered to do anything at all and says "You go see the witnesses Pel, I can't be bothered to move and may even take a nap. Go see how the cabbie is doing also, tell Him He cannot park at an intersection and ticket Him."

You then, Armond, draw your gun, crouch and disappear behind a car, and proceed to duck and weave along Cherry St in a life and death struggle to avoid a bullet and you becoming acquainted with the bullet inscribed "To Whom it may concern: BOO!"

In other words, and all seriousness, I hope one day Don decides that He isn't going to leave this World with His legacy and 15 mins of fame being "That guy who asked Zodiac where Zodiac was, then forget where He saw Zodiac' and come clean about what all these lies and cover stories have been given to the public to conceal the truth of this nights events.

Richard

12/30/2015 01:19:57 pm

The 3 teenagers were watching Zodiac walk around the taxicab and head up Cherry from their house. Pelissetti recalled the dispatcher said "We responded to a radio call, told us that a cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry and Washington Streets." 1 minute later he is at the scene and the 3 teenagers are now crossing the road heading toward the taxicab, having just seen Zodiac head up Cherry, which they relayed to Pelissetti. They must have finished talking to the dispatcher and left the house. This means when Pelissetti arrives at the crime scene Zodiac cannot have left the taxicab more than 1 minute ago, likely less.

Alex

12/30/2015 03:17:53 pm

Rich I cant help but notice your placing a big emphasis on the timeline here. The Timeline is only as reliable as the people giving it, and we know how believable they are from other examples.

The timeline you are unable to make fit what these two cops are stating happened is non applicable because they are lying and adding to, or leaving out from, the truth of the sequence of that nights true events and as such, you will never get a true and accurate timeline to fit facts because the facts that are given are false and misleading.

I know I am harping on about the Law Maxims today but they are important and applicable to this situation and its the Law itself that declares it:

"A deceiver deals in generals." Offers One Law Maxim,

"Fraud lies hidden in general expressions." Declares another.

"• Often it is the new road, not the old one, which deceives the traveler. " Informs a Third. And Lastly, although there are numerous others I could refer to,

"A concealed fault is equal to a deceit." And this one Maxim here applies to the fault concealed by SFPD, only acknowledged when and in response to, the Offender Himself making that fault and their deceit known in writing to The Printing Press.

Alex

12/30/2015 03:34:57 pm

Don Fouke seems to be an unwilling pawn in the game of deception and cover up and I have always believed it isn't off His own back it's done. If He's been given orders from a superior of "This is the truth and what we know did happen, but here is what you shall say when asked to recount the events of that night..." then the Law recognises no fault or blame to be found with Fouke Himself as Legally the Law acknowledged and says:

"Where a person does an act by command of one exercising judicial authority, the law will not suppose that he acted from any wrongful or improper motive, because it was his bounden duty to obey."

Its the Higher Up's at SFPD, as I alluded to previously, that the public would demand explain to them why they let a WMA walk away if, as the truth I believe is the true version, they knew Suspect was A WMA?
Don Fouke wouldn't get His feet held to the flames so to speak, He may be asked to explain why He did this to His superiors yes, but that's it.

When it comes to the angered and dismayed public demanding to know, this would fall upon the Chief of Police or Chief of Homicide Inspectors such as Martin Lee. The perception is that the Chief is responsible for all His under-links, and to ensure they are competent to do the job and tasks they are required and if they are found wanting, it's not the worker bee that is in for it, but the Queen of the Hive so to speak.

Alex

12/31/2015 09:16:01 pm

"The 3 teenagers were watching Zodiac walk around the taxicab and head up Cherry from their house."

They were, and while many ponder why we have arrived at Chery when Maple was given as destination, do we do so overlooking why were are on Washington St also? It's assumed and repeated as if factual as if we know without doubt The Zodiac was heading for Maple into the Presidio and, OK, while I have always argued against this or been extremely sceptical and/or suspicious of it really be where Un-Sub was shuffling off to for many reasons, lets say I join the safe majority and accept it as the place He was heading.....

Why does He give Washing and Any-Street's as destination? If your aim is to disappear through Maple wall then Maple Wall is off Jackson Street as to the closest in proximity to the other for escape. Why doesn't He instruct Paul to take Him to 'Jackson and Maple Streets?' if quick and most convenient location to pull up to for escape is the motive.

Why burden himself with an extra Cherry st, Maple or even Spruce to traverse from upon Washington St thus begging witness after witness to observe you? Jackson and Maple, Jackson and Cherry or Jackson and Spruce as destination and this problem is eliminated.
There is a reason, logic dictates there must be. My guess as to why He doesn't wan't to have the scene and cab at or near Cherry, Maple st on Jackson? It's not in His interest to be seen by occupants of homes in that specific area as, just as the suggested Eight year old went on to do anyway, they could and would possibly have cause to recognize Him.

However, if we Ensure cab is a street over and block away, ensuring nobody see's you exit it and head to your target location as there is then a witness linking you to the crime scene, whereas if we are on Washington and walk back along and down Jackson, any observers will merely observe me walking to a property?

Richard

12/30/2015 01:27:45 pm

From an earlier post:
"If we work backwards Alex on the assumption Donald Fouke saw Zodiac at the intersection of Jackson and Maple, then this is approximately 1 minute after Fouke received the initial dispatch. It takes approximately 1 minute to travel from Presidio Avenue/Washington to this intersection. It definitely takes Zodiac 3 minutes to walk to this intersection. That means Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti received the initial radio message 2 minutes after Zodiac left the taxicab. This means Pelissetti, if he took 1 minute to arrive at the Washington and Cherry crime scene, Zodiac was now at the Jackson and Maple intersection"

See the problem here..comparing it to the above posts.

Richard

12/30/2015 01:34:52 pm

If Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti received the initial radio message 2 minutes after Zodiac left the taxicab, then surely the 3 teenagers would have relayed Zodiac's direction of travel to the dispatcher of the unfolding events or the dispatcher had 2 minutes leeway to ask.

Richard

12/30/2015 01:36:51 pm

But apparently they were not aware at this juncture....strange.

Alex

12/31/2015 05:08:07 pm

Well I know I've mentioned this before and you replied that it is likely answerable as a 40+ year old memory and I tend to agree in relation to, specifically: Armond and Don, right from the start of this sequence where by both hear the call go out of 'a something happening' at Wash & Chy Streets, I say A Something because Pelissetti responds, He states, to a dispatcher issuing A Broadcast that told Him that, Quote "A cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry & Washington Streets, in Pacific Heights. . " where-as Don Fouke states "We (He and rookie Zelms, who is from this moment looking everywhere other than where the Whte Guy Don sees/speaks with is located) had passed Washington St when broadcast came in of a shooting at Cherry & Washington st."

I mean it's likely as you previously suggested Rich, just Don using words to roughly describe the first time He was aware of this cabbie incident that night but you never know, I mean, once again I shall become a source for the Federal Bureau of Speculation and another, 'What if. . . ' is born:

What if, as Don suggests, He responds nitialy to same AP Dispatch broadcast and en route, hears the update that Crime is Homicide with victim shot in the side of head rather than a more routine Cab Driver being ordered 'Stick em up'.
It makes sense to me that Armond would no doubt have informed base and dispatch that victim is deceased, murdered via shot to head, suspect fled seconds prior to my arrival as per witnesses statements.

Armond without doubt does give the update of this crime being one of Homicide because the Homicide Inspectors, Three of them, arrive shortly thereafter. If AP told Base this updated details, base in turn would no doubt instantly broadcast this because they will issue a 'All Units, Caution is Advised as Suspect is wanted for Homicide and is Armed and Dangerous.'

If Don knew this of the crime, it's one more inexcusable example of incompetence in not simply patting Any Male, White, Black, any other colour, down because anyone carrying a 9MM is of extreme interest and while Armond declares that no blood was visible on clothing of WMA with Elasticated cuffs, He could be found concealing swatches of cloth draped in blood in His pocket.

But never ever search someone, Rule No.1!! Especially when we have a homicide and suspect in the area armed with a firearm. Simply call Him over to your Police Car, ask Him a question and then just pray like Fk He doesn't answer by shooting you in the head!

Alex

12/31/2015 08:50:00 pm

"See the problem here..comparing it to the above posts."

"Yes Rich, I do. It's called Officer Armond Pelissetti and Donald Fouke. "

You'll never get a reliable scientific result when it's based on Junk Science and false data input.

Alex

12/31/2015 05:47:54 pm

I mean we know, Post Event and with the advantage of hinsight that as Fouke & Zelms pull up, according to them and theior claim of BMA given, Zodiac here is in no danger of being arrested.....But He in real live time doesn't know that. The claim of calling WMA over by Z, He then obliging and approaching the cop car is a sequence of actions by both cop & criminal that one could ask 'Is it likely or plausible?'

Don hits the Brakes, winds down Windown and yells: "Excuse me Sir. . . " and the WMA acknowledges the call/request by looking at Don, then turning to approach Him and Eric, who is still looking on the South Side-Walk on Jackson for suspects.
Well, the cop calling male over while He stays seated wthin it is asking for trouble if the man you call to is your guy. We know the sequence will unfold without Zodiac being detained, but He doesn't know anything of the BMA error as He is stading on Jackson with a cop calling Him over to the vehicle the cop is driving.
If I have just shot someone in the head because I could and within 90 seconds of leaving the scene I hear tyres screeching to a halt, flashing blue lights and a voice "Police Officer, hold it.....Come here!" then for me this is not going to go well and my capture is all but guaranteed here.

On the flip side, I've seen enough episodes of 'COPS' to kow that police are not expecting, nor at all used to, ordering someone they suspect guilty of a crime to stop and get on the ground to know that a guilty suspect 9 times out of 10 will respond by running in as fast as He can away from police.

Eric's widow declared Eric mentioned that He and Don did stop and speak to a white male and do so, Quote: 'Face to Face' and said He did nothing to warrant our becoming suspicious of Him, He spoke in a polite and soft spoken way, appeared on the exterior to be absolutely calm and undaunted or in any way anxious, worried or in any way came across as nervous so there was nothing to suspect He was responsible. Noted how non stand out the guy looked, just your ordinary everyday guy.

THE DONALD FOUKE TIMELINE

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