THE DISCREPANCY THAT IS PRESIDIO HEIGHTS
Here is the new approach I shall adopt (for the most part) in presenting the Zodiac case, using a mixture of visual aids and dialogue. The presentation below is regarding the 2007 Zodiac documentary, and the movements of Officer Armond Pelissetti and Donald Fouke on the night of October 11th 1969. All the videos will be done on the fly, so expect some mistakes and hesitations along the way. When viewing the following video place it in full screen mode, as I will be using the mouse pointer as a directional aid. Hopefully things will get better as I learn to use the Bandicam tool.
3/17/2020 03:18:26 pm
Nicely presented , Richard , and illustrates well just how lucky the Zodiac was , that night , in his ability to extricate himself from the crime scene .
3/17/2020 03:36:14 pm
He was extremely lucky Rubislaw. What surprises me (if the kids claims are to be believed), is if Armond Pelissetti heard Lindsey and wasn't prepared to drive or chase after Zodiac, why didn't he get on the radio and inform other patrol units of the Zodiac likely heading east on Jackson and get somebody to cut him off in Jackson. The kids story of pulling Stine into an upright position in the taxicab has some merit based on the blooded fingerprints on the driver side dividing panel, but the sighting of Zodiac at the top of Cherry with Pelissetti in tandem doesn't work in the timeline. When they claimed they pointed out Zodiac at the top of Cherry, he still had about 1m 40s journey time down Jackson. Ample time to cut Zodiac off. Something in their recollections doesn't make sense. We'd have to assume Pelissetti just ignored them, because he didn't appear to act on their sighting at all and never mentions this event at all in 2007. The Zodiac certainly laid it on thick in the Bus Bomb letter - a mixture of braggadocio and taunting - to cover the truth of a night that very nearly went wrong for him. A euphoric letter if you like.
3/18/2020 06:43:32 am
For reasons that seem fairly obvious, the eyewitness account of the teenagers has the most credibility when compared to those of any others pertinent to this case. They saw the suspect proceed up the street and relayed the info to a police officer in a timely manner. No reason to doubt their rendition whatsoever. One reason that Mr Z may have had to threaten a school bus could have been an obvious attempt to intimidate young eyewitnesses, and to keep them silent from that point on.
3/18/2020 07:09:44 am
And makes it all the more unusual the police would usurp their identification in the police report of a suspect about 40 years, by attributing an age range of 25 to 30 to the initial sketch based on the artist's sketch. This clearly didn't sit well with the teenagers, who requested a second sketch be drawn, that nearer reflected the man they saw that night. It clearly didn't help in the capture of the Zodiac Killer, to put out a sketch of the killer with an accompanying age range of 25 to 30, when none of the three sets of eyewitnesses stated 25-30. In fact, they all gave a median age of 40. Even Donald Fouke estimated 35-45. The police clearly hedged their bets in the second sketch, giving this age spread of 35-45, rather than just saying about 40.
3/17/2020 03:56:27 pm
Yes , I suppose one can only take a stab at these time inconsistencies , since one presumes there wasn't a single recognised timing device,and is judged on the basis of a number of policeman's reports ( ? ) .
3/17/2020 04:07:54 pm
If watches and timing devices didn't exist, it still wouldn't make any sense Rubislaw. It's primarily about what you can achieve in a set time. It wouldn't matter if Pelissetti had a watch set 2, 4 or 6 minutes faster or slower than Donald Fouke, because they both started at ground zero, the time of the first broadcast. That radio broadcast could have been transmitted at 9:54pm, 9:55pm or 9:57pm for that matter - the exact scenario above would be unchanged and impossible. You are effectively starting each of the officers journey at zero.
3/17/2020 04:23:27 pm
I do wonder....do you think , after the events of that night and , with the first few minutes after the first broadcast , in mind , that there was some sort of '' mini inquiry '' involving all officers ,before their official reports were written up ?
3/17/2020 05:29:44 pm
It's difficult to second guess how much they conferred before the reports, but it's clear we didn't get the whole story in 1969, just 1 1/2 pages of police report effectively omitting everything that occured after Zodiac "was last seen heading up Cherry from Washington St". Why did the police report fail to mention anything after this, including the pertinent sighting of a white male on Jackson? The only thing we got was the belated memorandum on November 12th 1969. Compare this police report to BRS and LHR. I know it was countersigned by Pelissetti and Peda, but it's rather telling there was seemingly nothing by Fouke in the immediate days after the crime, or a comprehensive police report compiled in general. I say seemingly, because I don't believe 1 1/2 pages is all there is.
3/17/2020 05:32:11 pm
Donald Fouke does come across as a '' haunted '' individual - as if those few short minutes defined his life .The ramifications are that he could have become a hero .
3/17/2020 06:34:36 pm
Nice work Richard, I agree with Arguello
3/18/2020 03:08:11 am
So , we have it from Fouke , in person anyway , and on claim alone obviously , that :
3/18/2020 04:33:50 am
Donald Fouke said about 5'10". The teenagers said 5'8". I think the people selling the notion of Donald Fouke being unable to determine Zodiac's height accurately because he is a foot or two lower in a seated position, are usually selling a suspect who doesn't conform to this 5'9" average height. Do you think they would even mention Donald Fouke being seated as an explanation for an error, if their suspect was 5'9" or 5'10" inches. Of course not, they would be arguing the opposite - that him being seated made no difference. The same is argued regarding the teenagers, despite the fact they came to ground level as well.
3/18/2020 04:44:31 am
Yes , and I suppose that we can presumably accept that the teens saw the Zodiac in relation to the taxi cab , whose model they would be familiar with . And , hence advantaged by familiarity with '' scale ''.
3/18/2020 05:08:43 am
Exactly. Also, Donald Fouke had more life experience and no doubt could have recognised the difference between somebody who was 5'8" and 5'10 inches, and somebody who was 6'3" (in shoes), that Ross Sullivan would have been. It really isn't that difficult. But like I said, if somebody is attempting to sell a suspect around 6'2" or 6'3" inches, they will use everything to muddy the waters such as street lighting and Officer Fouke being seated. They don't however use any such excuses when it comes to the facial features of the sketch. The accuracy is now perfect because it looks like Sullivan. There are now no concerns over the moving vehicle, street lighting and angle of view. It boils down to cherry-picking of evidence. When something doesn't align with my suspect, either ignore or explain it away. When something does align, champion it from the rooftops. Believe me Rubislaw, if Ross Sullivan was 5'9" in height, they would be championing the eyewitnesses recollections, not attempting to muddy the waters with line of sight.
3/18/2020 03:46:16 am
I don't know if it counts for anything , apart from the unreliability of official composites , but :
3/18/2020 04:39:29 am
Street lighting and shadowing can make a face and body appear narrower. Darkening on the edges of a face and body is difficult for the eye to recognise, hence creating a slimming effect. Colours under street lightning can also be skewed - we see that with blues and greens (and many other colours) in vehicle identification.
3/18/2020 04:10:11 am
With many of the various '' applied '' versions of the Zodiac , we could be asking ourselves :
3/18/2020 04:51:48 am
I think too much faith is bestowed on the Presidio Heights sketch. It may be a reasonable likeness, but without corroborative other sketches it's impossible to ascertain its accuracy. If Donald Fouke had been asked independently on October 13th to give the sketch artist his version of the suspect he saw, and it looked almost identical to the one offered by the teenagers, then it would carry much more credibility as a genuine likeness to the Zodiac Killer that night. Why the police didn't perform two independent sketches based on Fouke and the 3 teenagers boggles the mind. This should be routine 101 police work. If it was done, then both versions should have been released in tandem. It is clear Donald Fouke had no input into either the October 13th or 18th sketch - and irrespective of this - the police should have procured two independent sketches to validate each to one another.
3/18/2020 05:27:14 am
Certainly agreed Richard - we seem to be forever hanging on to '' something '' offered , that probably isn't '' the whole picture '' .
3/18/2020 05:29:53 am
...and I can't even add up to-day....that should be 34 years .
3/18/2020 07:25:28 am
Great job with the visuals Richard!
3/18/2020 10:58:19 am
It would make more sense if Pelissetti met Fouke as he entered Jackson Mo, you are correct, but that wasn't the story given by Fouke. He stated they met in Cherry https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=4750
3/18/2020 11:06:43 am
The journey of Fouke from Presidio Avenue/Washington St, travelling at about 35-40mph, would take approximate 70 seconds to reach the middle of Jackson. So Pelissetti (after getting the 1st radio broadcast at exactly the same time as Fouke} can't possibly get here in 70 seconds. You would be looking at at least 5 minutes.
3/19/2020 12:37:47 pm
In your video, you say that Pelissetti saw Zodiac at the corner of Jackson and Cherry. I don't think that's accurate. Pelissetti never claimed to have seen Zodiac. Yes, the kids pointed out the direction he went and Pelissetti said that he pursued him, but he was never seen by Pelissetti at the intersection. So, it's possible he had already turned east down Jackson and out of Pelissetti's line of sight.
3/19/2020 02:18:20 pm
I didn't say Pelissetti saw Zodiac, but I did say he had Zodiac pointed out to him on several occasions. I also stated in the comment above "The recollection of Pelissetti never mentions Zodiac being pointed out to him by Lindsey Robbins".
3/19/2020 02:26:28 pm
I'm eager to see your rebuttal to Butterfield because I thought he did a pretty solid job.
3/19/2020 03:11:05 pm
Here is the reason Chaucer. Michael stated within minutes of the first radio alert, Pelissetti pulled up at the intersection of Washington and Cherry. I will be generous and say Pelissetti arrived 1 minute after the first radio alert. Remember, both Pelissetti and Fouke got the first radio alert at 9:58. The time is irrelevant because they both responded at the same time. So, Pelissetti arrived at Washington and Cherry after a minimum of 1 minute. He then got Zodiac pointed out to him by Lindsey. He then ushered the kids back to the alcove of their residence. He then checked on Paul Stine. He retook the description from the teenagers. He then updated everybody on the radio. He then informed Peda to secure the crime scene. And then began his cautious journey up Cherry, checking alcoves and cars so he didn't get his head blown off. This journey had to be a minimum of 90 seconds up Cherry. If we add his journey up Cherry to the 1 minute he took to arrive at the crime scene, that is already 2 1/2 minutes. Now add all the other time he used up at the crime scene. We are looking at a bare minimum of 4 minutes from the time Pelissetti got the first radio alert to the time he reached the upper reaches of Cherry.
The Zodiac Killer Insights
3/20/2020 04:24:19 am
I thoroughly enjoyed listening and watching your explanation, Richard. Your critical and analytical thinking is refreshing. It's imperative to your success. The majority of Zodiac case commentators seriously lack both sets of skills. Well done! Be that as it may, I think you should be asking the following question: On what street in Presidio Heights did the Zodiac park his car that night?
3/20/2020 08:23:14 am
Thanks ZKI, I have discussed the positioning of Zodiac's car before, based on his statements in the Bus Bomb letter which effectively chart his movements within the park. His statement of "the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west" was his last description before he exited the park on the east side. I believe he is describing Presidio Boulevard, which travels from the south to the northwest (shown below). Zodiac would have been 150 feet from the roadway and escaped the park here. I agree with Rex Bolt that Zodiac was likely parked in Lyon Street by the Lyon Street steps bordering the park.
3/20/2020 05:08:54 am
Well , strike a light ?
3/20/2020 06:55:41 am
3/20/2020 07:23:24 am
Also, in the 2007 documentary Pelissetti said they received the call at 9:55 and "responded very quickly".
3/20/2020 08:37:46 am
The time is irrelevant because Pelissetti and Fouke got the 1st call at the same time, so the exact same scenario above applies. They both would still be beginning their journey from the first radio alert. Pelissetti said they responded very quickly, but you were referring to Michael Butterfield, who stated "within minutes".
3/20/2020 09:04:26 am
People talk about memory and changing or embellished accounts Chaucer, so I don't understand why people use the account of Donald Fouke and 3712 Jackson Street with such reverence. This cock and bull story by Donald Fouke was brought up in 2007 documentary, in which he stated he last saw the white male walking up the steps of 3712 Jackson, but didn't see him reach the top of the steps. How can he simultaneously see the white male here, and last see him walking north up Maple on November 12th 1969. I would place more credence on his statement in 1969 than 38 years later. Many people use this 3712 Jackson Street statement in their books, while routinely ignoring what Donald Fouke said in 1989, when in theory his memory and recollections should have been clearer. The reason people ignore 1989 is because of the narrative they are choosing to sell. Had Donald Fouke really saw a white man at 3712 Jackson, then after being informed by Pelissetti of the updated description, why didn't he head back to that address and knock the door or tell anybody. All he said "was let the inspectors follow through". Now Michael Butterfield mentions nothing of the 1989 documentary, but routinely refers to the 2007 documentary, 18 years later. Why? He clearly states he was heading to Arguello (away from the crime scene) when he got the update. We have to ask the question - why did Donald Fouke ignore the Cherry turning and head further away from the crime scene when he had been instructed a cabbie was being attacked. The most logical answer to me, is Zodiac sent him on that wild goose chase of a man "running and waving a gun". Alex Lewis pointed this documentary to me years ago, but it is routinely ignored if favour of memories from Donald Fouke 18 more years down the line. The story of Donald Fouke in 2007 completely contradicts his 1969 memorandum, but people still treat it as fact.
3/20/2020 09:08:07 am
Here is the clip of Fouke in 1989.
3/20/2020 09:14:14 am
In this clip he got the update by Arguello, not off Pelissetti in Cherry, while subsequently saying an expletive. Shall we believe 1989 or 2007?
3/20/2020 05:10:02 pm
Think of this Chaucer from the perspective of what we know. Fouke actually stated he and Zelms were by the intersection of Washington St and Presidio Avenue. Let us apply 9:58pm to when they received the 1st broadcast. They arrive at Jackson & Maple at 9:59 pm. They saw Zodiac here. Therefore Zodiac left the cab 3 minutes ago. So Zodiac left the cab at 9:56 pm. He took about 1 minute from cab to upper reaches of Cherry. Therefore Zodiac was about to exit Cherry at 9:57 pm.
The Zodiac Killer Insights
3/20/2020 07:04:57 am
Well, I prefer a match. Then, and only then, do you have light! I hate darkness.
3/20/2020 07:29:55 am
One presumes that , unless anyone else knows better , then the '' Mason & Geary logged '' claim is yet more fantasy from Mr.Voigt whom , certainly has cultivated a reputation for attention-seeking material , with no actual substance in the real world .
3/20/2020 02:56:48 pm
3/20/2020 03:13:57 pm
1228 Montgomery Street ,BB .
3/20/2020 03:18:53 pm
Between 1978 and 1992 Melvin Belli lived at 2950 Broadway, right next to the Lyon Street Steps. But not in 1969.
3/20/2020 12:29:45 pm
3/20/2020 01:09:47 pm
When Zodiac shot Stine I would expect a little back spatter on his hand. But his clothing nothing. The widely spread notion that Zodiac had Stine's head in his lap makes little sense. Why would a killer knowing he was exiting the scene on foot, place the victim's head which was bleeding profusely in his lap, thereby soaking himself in blood. Stine's head was in the passenger footwell, so all the killer had to do was lean over him and tear a bit of shirt. All he has to do then is wipe his hands on a handkerchief and he is virtually blood free. There is no reason whatsoever for Zodiac to be covered in blood.
3/20/2020 01:42:03 pm
Hi Two Buck Chuck .
3/20/2020 02:22:36 pm
Good points Rubislaw 32.
3/20/2020 02:46:20 pm
Indeed , Two Buck Chuck , it certainly appears that much planning and practice went into this crime .
3/20/2020 01:53:26 pm
Thanks Richard, my idea was that Zodiac wasn't seen but another man was, Fouke and company may have missed him. But I essentially agree, with the three sightings, that it was most probably him, although 170 lbs. seems pretty light from the one witness. I'm guessing from the map that Z made it to Lyons street via the park, this would make more sense and produce fewer sightings. I'm sure he took a trial run.
3/20/2020 02:32:41 pm
We don't actually know what Zodiac said to Donald Fouke, he could have been exaggerating in the letter with a touch of triumphalism. If When Donald Fouke saw the white male, it would have made sense to ask a member of the public "have you seen a black male in the vicinity acting suspicious". The Zodiac (having just murdered) wants to get the police off his back and can't believe they aren't holding him, so gives them what they want. Zodiac could have said "Yes, I've just seen a shady looking black man heading towards Arguello". He may have added in a gun, by saying "I noticed he had a sidearm" or "was carrying a gun". But in his boasting letter there is nothing stopping him from laying it on thick and saying "I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber". It doesn't necessarily mean these were his exact words. Donald Fouke, knowing at that point his suspect is a black male and not the man in front of him, probably just believed he was being aided by a good citizen. And Donald Fouke in my estimation took the correct course of action. He has to weigh up the severity of an assault on a taxicab driver, to the imminent danger to other members of the public, especially if Zodiac stated "I believe the black male was carrying a gun". Donald Fouke made the correct choice in that moment and headed towards Arguello. When he got the corrected description by Arguello he probably surmised he had been tricked. Because he last saw the WMA heading north on Maple, that is why he continued onwards into West Pacific Avenue.
3/20/2020 05:00:04 pm
Interesting stuff Rubislaw32. I need to look over those letters you refer to. This guy just gets more devious with each rabbit hole. I do think we've probably attributed things to Z that have no legitimate basis but such is the nature of a beast with so many unknowns. He can't have thought of everything. As the saying goes, this guy had too much time on his hands....
3/20/2020 05:20:00 pm
The problem we have if no conversation took place between Fouke and Zodiac, would be Donald Fouke therefore just decided to ignore his priorities of responding to an attacked cab driver who may have needed his urgent assistance, and just swanned off up Arguello and away from the crime scene. The first responsibility of any responding officer should be to head to the crime scene they have been directed to, unless something of higher priority overrides this.
3/21/2020 07:12:07 am
The only thing I can think of Richard is that he knew there would be other officers at the crime scene checking on the cabbie. He may have been pursuing a suspect down to Arguello. I must admit though, it does seem odd....
3/23/2020 12:13:07 pm
Slightly off topic.
3/23/2020 04:13:28 pm
Zodiac stated "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again".
3/24/2020 04:47:21 am
Thank you Richard for clarifying.
3/24/2020 05:34:44 am
I believe the Zodiac knew the teenagers saw him, and why he donned Stine's glasses. This is what police stated after Deborah Perez claimed she had in her possession Paul Stine's glasses. "San Francisco police said Thursday that they were still waiting for Perez to produce a pair of glasses that she said her father took as a souvenir from a cab driver he killed. Police believe the Zodiac shot a San Francisco taxi driver named Paul Stine on Oct. 11, 1969. Reports of the crime say that Stine's glasses were missing. Once you make complaints to a police department, you are required by law to provide the evidence to a police agency, and there is no reason to believe she is not going to do that", said San Francisco Police Sgt. Lyn Tomioka. Asked whether police were taking her claims seriously, Tomioka said: "We take any new leads or any new information or evidence and look at it seriously, and then we follow up to see if there is any legitimacy to the statements".
3/24/2020 05:47:37 am
The area of Presidio Heights and the location he chose for the murder (likely Washington & Maple originally) provides near access to the park to hide, but isn't next to the park, so somebody could see him committing the murder and entering the park. His journey up Maple before turning right on Jackson takes him quickly out of view. Then it's a matter of walking to Spruce. He achieves separation from the line of sight from Washington & Maple by turning right, he achieves separation by entering the park, and achieves separation by heading over the Golden Gate Bridge via a main highway in a matter of minutes.
3/24/2020 06:40:05 am
3/24/2020 07:00:57 am
I have covered this several times and has some merit. This idea was first floated by Paul Holes on Michael Butterfield's site here in 2009:
3/24/2020 07:53:26 am
Sorry to make you repeat stuff Richard but it's only in the interest of expediency.
3/24/2020 08:41:03 am
"Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he's stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place". They could have mistook the cutting of the shirt with a knife for a stabbing. Simply misinterpreted what they saw.
3/24/2020 07:18:39 am
I think if I was planning an escape route through the Spruce thoroughfare, the crime would ideally be planned in one of two places:
3/24/2020 07:34:16 am
As you stated Mo, everything is mostly conjecture. He may have ducked into the park and reemerged to enter his vehicle or residence. What we can say is it's almost certain he was the man running into Julius Khan playground because that description given by eyewitnesses does match almost identically to the teenagers description in the police report, and the description given by Donald Fouke. It also matches the timeline, and his admission in the Bus Bomb letter. But I accept his ducking into the park could have been temporary respite. But it proves his vehicle (if he had one) wasn't positoned on Jackson St prior to him entering the park at Spruce Street, otherwise he could have just got in it and driven away, not walked past it. Likewise, I doubt his vehicle was parked somewhere in Maple, because he entered the park at Spruce, rather than turn right into Maple and drive away. So if he had a vehicle parked, the odds are it was east of Spruce, and likewise for a residence.
3/24/2020 09:58:30 am
I think the consensus here is probably the most likely. His car was near the steps and he had no problem meandering through the park to get there. A car on Maple seems too risky as he could pass cops immediately upon driving away.
Comments are closed.
For black and white issue..