THE DISCREPANCY THAT IS PRESIDIO HEIGHTS

3/17/2020

Here is the new approach I shall adopt (for the most part) in presenting the Zodiac case, using a mixture of visual aids and dialogue. The presentation below is regarding the 2007 Zodiac documentary, and the movements of Officer Armond Pelissetti and Donald Fouke on the night of October 11th 1969. All the videos will be done on the fly, so expect some mistakes and hesitations along the way. When viewing the following video place it in full screen mode, as I will be using the mouse pointer as a directional aid. Hopefully things will get better as I learn to use the Bandicam tool.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/17/2020 03:18:26 pm

Nicely presented , Richard , and illustrates well just how lucky the Zodiac was , that night , in his ability to extricate himself from the crime scene .

In reading the Bus Bomb Letter of November 9th , one certainly senses the relief and euphoria from the Zodiac , in his recollections of those Presidio Heights events .

This , in sharp contrast to some of his other claimed crimes , for which his '' sketchiness '' tended to indicate prevarication .

Richard

3/17/2020 03:36:14 pm

He was extremely lucky Rubislaw. What surprises me (if the kids claims are to be believed), is if Armond Pelissetti heard Lindsey and wasn't prepared to drive or chase after Zodiac, why didn't he get on the radio and inform other patrol units of the Zodiac likely heading east on Jackson and get somebody to cut him off in Jackson. The kids story of pulling Stine into an upright position in the taxicab has some merit based on the blooded fingerprints on the driver side dividing panel, but the sighting of Zodiac at the top of Cherry with Pelissetti in tandem doesn't work in the timeline. When they claimed they pointed out Zodiac at the top of Cherry, he still had about 1m 40s journey time down Jackson. Ample time to cut Zodiac off. Something in their recollections doesn't make sense. We'd have to assume Pelissetti just ignored them, because he didn't appear to act on their sighting at all and never mentions this event at all in 2007. The Zodiac certainly laid it on thick in the Bus Bomb letter - a mixture of braggadocio and taunting - to cover the truth of a night that very nearly went wrong for him. A euphoric letter if you like.

Tom1

3/18/2020 06:43:32 am

For reasons that seem fairly obvious, the eyewitness account of the teenagers has the most credibility when compared to those of any others pertinent to this case. They saw the suspect proceed up the street and relayed the info to a police officer in a timely manner. No reason to doubt their rendition whatsoever. One reason that Mr Z may have had to threaten a school bus could have been an obvious attempt to intimidate young eyewitnesses, and to keep them silent from that point on.

Richard

3/18/2020 07:09:44 am

And makes it all the more unusual the police would usurp their identification in the police report of a suspect about 40 years, by attributing an age range of 25 to 30 to the initial sketch based on the artist's sketch. This clearly didn't sit well with the teenagers, who requested a second sketch be drawn, that nearer reflected the man they saw that night. It clearly didn't help in the capture of the Zodiac Killer, to put out a sketch of the killer with an accompanying age range of 25 to 30, when none of the three sets of eyewitnesses stated 25-30. In fact, they all gave a median age of 40. Even Donald Fouke estimated 35-45. The police clearly hedged their bets in the second sketch, giving this age spread of 35-45, rather than just saying about 40.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/17/2020 03:56:27 pm

Yes , I suppose one can only take a stab at these time inconsistencies , since one presumes there wasn't a single recognised timing device,and is judged on the basis of a number of policeman's reports ( ? ) .

As an overall observation , the cops were on to the crime , very quickly , but sadly a sort of '' comedy of errors '' did transpire , in a relatively short period of time .

Richard

3/17/2020 04:07:54 pm

If watches and timing devices didn't exist, it still wouldn't make any sense Rubislaw. It's primarily about what you can achieve in a set time. It wouldn't matter if Pelissetti had a watch set 2, 4 or 6 minutes faster or slower than Donald Fouke, because they both started at ground zero, the time of the first broadcast. That radio broadcast could have been transmitted at 9:54pm, 9:55pm or 9:57pm for that matter - the exact scenario above would be unchanged and impossible. You are effectively starting each of the officers journey at zero.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/17/2020 04:23:27 pm

I do wonder....do you think , after the events of that night and , with the first few minutes after the first broadcast , in mind , that there was some sort of '' mini inquiry '' involving all officers ,before their official reports were written up ?

In the belief , perhaps , that aspects tended to add up....only for , in effect , historians such as keen amateur sleuths , all these years later to nit pick at it , with good reason ( ? ) .

Richard

3/17/2020 05:29:44 pm

It's difficult to second guess how much they conferred before the reports, but it's clear we didn't get the whole story in 1969, just 1 1/2 pages of police report effectively omitting everything that occured after Zodiac "was last seen heading up Cherry from Washington St". Why did the police report fail to mention anything after this, including the pertinent sighting of a white male on Jackson? The only thing we got was the belated memorandum on November 12th 1969. Compare this police report to BRS and LHR. I know it was countersigned by Pelissetti and Peda, but it's rather telling there was seemingly nothing by Fouke in the immediate days after the crime, or a comprehensive police report compiled in general. I say seemingly, because I don't believe 1 1/2 pages is all there is.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/17/2020 05:32:11 pm

Donald Fouke does come across as a '' haunted '' individual - as if those few short minutes defined his life .The ramifications are that he could have become a hero .

Poor guy .

3/17/2020 06:34:36 pm

Nice work Richard, I agree with Arguello

I like your new way of doing things as well.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 03:08:11 am

So , we have it from Fouke , in person anyway , and on claim alone obviously , that :

The Zodiac did have a rounded face ; a receding hairline akin to a '' widows peak '' , and was about 100 lbs lighter than pictures he was shown of Arthur Leigh Allen .

But , we never really get definitive '' height '' ( ? ) , and Fouke must have been looking up at Zodiac , from the sitting position of a police car .

Richard

3/18/2020 04:33:50 am

Donald Fouke said about 5'10". The teenagers said 5'8". I think the people selling the notion of Donald Fouke being unable to determine Zodiac's height accurately because he is a foot or two lower in a seated position, are usually selling a suspect who doesn't conform to this 5'9" average height. Do you think they would even mention Donald Fouke being seated as an explanation for an error, if their suspect was 5'9" or 5'10" inches. Of course not, they would be arguing the opposite - that him being seated made no difference. The same is argued regarding the teenagers, despite the fact they came to ground level as well.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 04:44:31 am

Yes , and I suppose that we can presumably accept that the teens saw the Zodiac in relation to the taxi cab , whose model they would be familiar with . And , hence advantaged by familiarity with '' scale ''.

At least , one might think ( ? ) - though these often '' spur of the moment '' experiences , with some probable added adrenaline , has been shown in human testing , to produce unreliable recall results .

Richard

3/18/2020 05:08:43 am

Exactly. Also, Donald Fouke had more life experience and no doubt could have recognised the difference between somebody who was 5'8" and 5'10 inches, and somebody who was 6'3" (in shoes), that Ross Sullivan would have been. It really isn't that difficult. But like I said, if somebody is attempting to sell a suspect around 6'2" or 6'3" inches, they will use everything to muddy the waters such as street lighting and Officer Fouke being seated. They don't however use any such excuses when it comes to the facial features of the sketch. The accuracy is now perfect because it looks like Sullivan. There are now no concerns over the moving vehicle, street lighting and angle of view. It boils down to cherry-picking of evidence. When something doesn't align with my suspect, either ignore or explain it away. When something does align, champion it from the rooftops. Believe me Rubislaw, if Ross Sullivan was 5'9" in height, they would be championing the eyewitnesses recollections, not attempting to muddy the waters with line of sight.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 03:46:16 am

I don't know if it counts for anything , apart from the unreliability of official composites , but :

Has anyone noticed the '' sometime '' composite of The New York Zodiac ?

It looks exactly like a negro version of Arthur Leigh Allen .

And yet Heriberto Seda , turned out to be Hispanic , and much less ''weighty ''.

Street lighting or '' lack of '' can play many tricks on the eye ( ? ) .

Richard

3/18/2020 04:39:29 am

Street lighting and shadowing can make a face and body appear narrower. Darkening on the edges of a face and body is difficult for the eye to recognise, hence creating a slimming effect. Colours under street lightning can also be skewed - we see that with blues and greens (and many other colours) in vehicle identification.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 04:10:11 am

With many of the various '' applied '' versions of the Zodiac , we could be asking ourselves :

'' Whatever happened to Buddy Holly ? ''

Although , with the official '' wanted '' poster , we do have it down , as official , that Ms. Betts told the V.P.D. , on seeing the poster :

'' That's him ! ''

With this in relation to a '' Paul '' whom she danced with , and who drank '' Bloody Marys '' and whose favourite song was '' Proud Mary ''.
Similarly , with Kathleen Johns and this composite poster where , she proceeded to have crying and fainting fits .

Richard

3/18/2020 04:51:48 am

I think too much faith is bestowed on the Presidio Heights sketch. It may be a reasonable likeness, but without corroborative other sketches it's impossible to ascertain its accuracy. If Donald Fouke had been asked independently on October 13th to give the sketch artist his version of the suspect he saw, and it looked almost identical to the one offered by the teenagers, then it would carry much more credibility as a genuine likeness to the Zodiac Killer that night. Why the police didn't perform two independent sketches based on Fouke and the 3 teenagers boggles the mind. This should be routine 101 police work. If it was done, then both versions should have been released in tandem. It is clear Donald Fouke had no input into either the October 13th or 18th sketch - and irrespective of this - the police should have procured two independent sketches to validate each to one another.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 05:27:14 am

Certainly agreed Richard - we seem to be forever hanging on to '' something '' offered , that probably isn't '' the whole picture '' .

And , one wonders if there might be additional composites , so far denied to the public , for reasons not known to us .

As an example , the '' Bearded Man '' composite , in relation to the man purportedly last seen with Joan Webster , at Boston's Logan Airport , in November 1981 .

The composite only released about five years ago , and only because Joan's sister - in - law , Eve Carson , elected to do so .

For about 24 years , this composite was withheld .At that 1981 time , the reasons appear perfectly understandable - that LE had to assume , for a time , that Joan might still be alive and held captive - so they didn't want Joan's abductor to recognise himself , giving him a possible good reason to kill Joan .

But, after say 6 months - or even a year of no sign of Joan , why continue to withhold that composite .? The impact of the composite emerging after 24 years is reduced considerably .

Still a bit of a mystery .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/18/2020 05:29:53 am

...and I can't even add up to-day....that should be 34 years .

3/18/2020 07:25:28 am

Great job with the visuals Richard!

It seems that Donald Fouke was overwhelmed by this experience, which may have clouded his judgment on the day of the crime, as well as his memory afterwards:

-Fouke said he saw the suspect head left on Maple towards the Presidio, but in 2007 he said he saw the suspect head towards the entrance of a house at 3712 Jackson. I wonder if he saw two different people, or if he and his partner (officer Zelms) saw two different things and later tried to reconcile what happened.

-I don’t think Pelisetti ever said he saw the suspect walking up on Cherry. My understanding is that one of the young witnesses was explaining to him that the killer was still in the vicinity. Z could have just turned right on Jackson when Pelisetti started his foot journey to catch him.

-I didn’t think Pelisetti encountered Fouke at Jackson and Cherry. I always thought it was more towards the middle of Jackson. The reason for this is the 2007 documentary, where Pelisetti says something to the effect that he had to decide which way to turn once he got to the end of the block (Cherry). He decided to turn right and, shortly thereafter, encountered Fouke. So, the two officers met after Pelisetti’s right turn on Jackson.

-Again, there is some confusion as to when Fouke was informed the suspect was a white male. In the 2007 documentary he claims that he only found this out after he encountered Pelisetti, after which he used a “slang term” to bemoan the fact that he likely just passed the killer.

-Fouke’s decision to turn on Presidio in order to cutoff the killer before he escaped into the Park makes sense. However, he was too late. I wonder if he could have just continued the pursuit by car into the park.

-One thing that may have contributed to the discrepancy in the timeline is the possibility that there was more than one white male in the area during the time of the crime. Maybe Fouke saw someone else walk into 3712 Jackson Street. There are a few names that have popped up over the years in connection with this case such as Xenophon Anthony, Mr. X, Robert Hale West and Anthony Busby. We don’t know the reason these people were named in association with this crime, but maybe one of them was in the area at the time of the crime (we know Mr. X was) and was observed by the officers.

-The ultimate question is if Zodiac actually spoke with Fouke and Zelms (he said two officers), or if just made the story up.

Richard

3/18/2020 10:58:19 am

It would make more sense if Pelissetti met Fouke as he entered Jackson Mo, you are correct, but that wasn't the story given by Fouke. He stated they met in Cherry https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=4750
But you are right. If Pelissetti had met Fouke at the top of Cherry, why would Pelissetti have needed to ponder which way to turn. Pelissetti was searching for a white male and apparently Fouke had just passed a white male, so he could have just told Pelissetti (but Pelissetti said Fouke didn't mention anybody).Why not? The account of Pelissetti earlier in the documentary doesn't describe a meeting with Fouke at the top of Cherry, but later (in the clip above) stated "At that point Officer Fouke pulled up", as though he is reacting to the Fouke part of the documentary of the meeting in Cherry.

I have no doubt Zodiac spoke with Fouke, because why would Fouke be heading towards Arguello Boulevard (as he claimed in the 1989 documentary) when he was still under the first radio broadcast at that point. We have to ask, why is Donald Fouke heading away from a crime scene he is supposed to be responding to, if he wasn't directed there by Zodiac. I wouldn't blame him. If Zodiac spoke with Fouke and Zelms and said there was a man running and waving a gun, heading in the direction of Arguello, then understandibly Donald Fouke believing this man was Paul Stine's attacker and presented futher and imminent danger to the public, was correct in heading in that direction. However, when he gets the 2nd radio broadcast approaching Arguello he realises he has been played. If Donald Fouke stopped the white male in Jackson and did say what Zodiac stated of "I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber", then Officer Fouke would have stated something to the effect of "have you seen a suspicious black male in the area". Zodiac would have said "yes, he was running up towards Arguello waving a gun". So when Fouke got the update stating there was no black male, he knew he'd been duped, so continued into West Pacific Avenue where he last saw the white male heading. I place more credence in his statement in 1989 than 2007, when the 3712 Jackson Street nonsense began. This totally contradicted his memorandum one month after the crime. If Fouke's journey from Presidio Avenue to Cherry is correct, along with the kids pointing Zodiac out to Pelissetti, then the two sightings of Zodiac are separated by the length of Jackson and therefore were two people of identical characteristics and clothing. My guess is, there was only one "Zodiac" and the kids statement is flawed. The recollection of Pelissetti never mentions Zodiac being pointed out to him by Lindsey Robbins. If he had been told of the man approaching the top of Cherry, then Donald Fouke's account from the Jackson and Maple intersection is flawed (based on one Zodiac).

Irrespective of the above, Donald Fouke (if he really did head straight to the crime scene from the 1st radio broadcast), he would have arrived at the crime scene long before Pelissetti ever started his journey up Cherry. But this didn't happen - thereby adding weight to the notion he headed towards Arguello and into West Pacific Avenue, before heading back to Cherry (where he met Pelissetti).

If Mo, as you stated, Pelissetti met Fouke in the middle of Jackson, then this would be no longer than about 70 seconds after Fouke got the initial broadcast. How does Pelissetti arrive at the crime scene, do all the tasks at the crime scene, carefully walk up Cherry in about 90 seconds, walk half way down Jackson and accomplish all this in 70 seconds, in order to meet Fouke.

Richard

3/18/2020 11:06:43 am

The journey of Fouke from Presidio Avenue/Washington St, travelling at about 35-40mph, would take approximate 70 seconds to reach the middle of Jackson. So Pelissetti (after getting the 1st radio broadcast at exactly the same time as Fouke} can't possibly get here in 70 seconds. You would be looking at at least 5 minutes.

Chaucer

3/19/2020 12:37:47 pm

In your video, you say that Pelissetti saw Zodiac at the corner of Jackson and Cherry. I don't think that's accurate. Pelissetti never claimed to have seen Zodiac. Yes, the kids pointed out the direction he went and Pelissetti said that he pursued him, but he was never seen by Pelissetti at the intersection. So, it's possible he had already turned east down Jackson and out of Pelissetti's line of sight.

Also, Michael Butterfield's recent podcast Zodiac: A to Z does a marvelous job of proving that Foulke and Zelms never stopped and spoke to Zodiac. It's worth a listen because it's too much to type here.

Richard

3/19/2020 02:18:20 pm

I didn't say Pelissetti saw Zodiac, but I did say he had Zodiac pointed out to him on several occasions. I also stated in the comment above "The recollection of Pelissetti never mentions Zodiac being pointed out to him by Lindsey Robbins".

I have listened to all of Michael Butterfield's podcasts and I agree with 99% of them. He has done an excellent job. But his Presidio Heights presentation is wrong, and I can prove it. I will explain below shortly.

Chaucer

3/19/2020 02:26:28 pm

I'm eager to see your rebuttal to Butterfield because I thought he did a pretty solid job.

I watched the video again, and perhaps the confusion lies with saying that the teenagers "pointed out Zodiac travelling up here, approaching Jackson and Cherry". In my mind's eye, I picture them actually pointing out the perp, not just the direction in which he fled.

As always, excellent analysis and I look forward to more. Also, be well in these uncertain times.

Richard

3/19/2020 03:11:05 pm

Here is the reason Chaucer. Michael stated within minutes of the first radio alert, Pelissetti pulled up at the intersection of Washington and Cherry. I will be generous and say Pelissetti arrived 1 minute after the first radio alert. Remember, both Pelissetti and Fouke got the first radio alert at 9:58. The time is irrelevant because they both responded at the same time. So, Pelissetti arrived at Washington and Cherry after a minimum of 1 minute. He then got Zodiac pointed out to him by Lindsey. He then ushered the kids back to the alcove of their residence. He then checked on Paul Stine. He retook the description from the teenagers. He then updated everybody on the radio. He then informed Peda to secure the crime scene. And then began his cautious journey up Cherry, checking alcoves and cars so he didn't get his head blown off. This journey had to be a minimum of 90 seconds up Cherry. If we add his journey up Cherry to the 1 minute he took to arrive at the crime scene, that is already 2 1/2 minutes. Now add all the other time he used up at the crime scene. We are looking at a bare minimum of 4 minutes from the time Pelissetti got the first radio alert to the time he reached the upper reaches of Cherry.

The journey time from first radio alert to the upper reaches of Cherry for Donald Fouke cannot take longer than 90 seconds. For them to meet here, either Donald Fouke took 4 minutes for a 90 second journey, or Armond Pelissetti landed at Washington & Cherry instantaneously in a time machine and began his journey immediately up Cherry without doing anything at the crime scene.

The picture Michael Butterfield paints at 2m 50s, is Pelissetti arriving at the crime scene and immediately following in the path of the killer. But what about Pelissetti checking on Stine, ushering the kids to the acove, retaking the description and updating all other units to the white male adult. Donald Fouke in the 1989 Crimes of the Century documentary stated he got the update in Arguello, not off Pelissetti at the top of Cherry. If Donald Fouke got the update at Arguello, he must have got it via Pelissetti (who updated all other units at the crime scene). But the bottom line is Armond Pelissetti needed at least 4 minutes from first radio alert to reach the top of Cherry. Donald Fouke needed no more than 90 seconds. In other words, Donald Fouke would have arrived at the crime scene (from 1st radio alert) had he travelled there directly in less than 2 minutes. Armond Pelissetti would have still been at the crime scene after 2 minutes. In fact, Michael Butterfield stated within minutes Pelissetti arrived at Washington and Cherry from first radio alert. If that was 2 minutes, Fouke and Pelissetti would have arrived at the crime scene at the identical time. I have nothing but praise for Michael Butterfield, but his timeline doesn't make any sense. He also mentions nothing of the 1989 documentary where Fouke stated he went along Jackson towards Arguello. Why is he heading away from the crime scene he is supposed to be responding to. Unless Zodiac directed him there.

The Zodiac Killer Insights

3/20/2020 04:24:19 am

I thoroughly enjoyed listening and watching your explanation, Richard. Your critical and analytical thinking is refreshing. It's imperative to your success. The majority of Zodiac case commentators seriously lack both sets of skills. Well done! Be that as it may, I think you should be asking the following question: On what street in Presidio Heights did the Zodiac park his car that night?

Richard

3/20/2020 08:23:14 am

Thanks ZKI, I have discussed the positioning of Zodiac's car before, based on his statements in the Bus Bomb letter which effectively chart his movements within the park. His statement of "the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west" was his last description before he exited the park on the east side. I believe he is describing Presidio Boulevard, which travels from the south to the northwest (shown below). Zodiac would have been 150 feet from the roadway and escaped the park here. I agree with Rex Bolt that Zodiac was likely parked in Lyon Street by the Lyon Street steps bordering the park.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Washington+St+and+Cherry+St,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/37.78976,-122.45583/@37.7945345,-122.4494342,1201m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m10!4m9!1m5!1m1!1s0x808587301b6b6cc5:0x8ad56b1d3e042f1!2m2!1d-122.4572667!2d37.7886934!1m1!4e1!3e2?hl=en

Somewhere here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.7923078,-122.4464033,3a,60y,341.18h,88.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDKPVKkhU-A7MYxHcl7d2Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Rubislaw 32 link

3/20/2020 05:08:54 am

Well , strike a light ?

An interesting question from you , '' The Zodiac Killer Insights '' , and I think that Richard and '' Excaliber '' , as contributors are best placed , to offer an opinion , on where the Zodiac may have positioned his ( presumed ) getaway car .

About six days ago , the Zodiac contributor , Tom Voigt , posted the following :

'' Mason and Geary was the location Stine logged into his trip sheet as being the pickup point . ''

Well , that is the first that I have heard of anyone , in the public domain , claiming that they have any definitive information , with respect to actual details , as appeared on Paul Stine's trip sheet .

The Zodiac claimed ,by inference that '' Washington and Maple '' was the final destination of Stines cab , and yet we know that the cab came to rest , at '' Washington and Cherry '' . But there is no known final entry , in the public domain , to confirm that final entry in Stines trip sheet .

Together with the '' DMV '' letter , the '' Monticello Card '' and the '' A good citizen '' ESP letter to Detective Sergeant John Lynch , it is the contents of Paul Stine's trip sheet , that Zodiac sleuths most covet .

Are we to assume that Mr.Voigt has or has had this information , all along ( ? ) .

Chaucer

3/20/2020 06:55:41 am

Richard,

You're not taking into account the presence of Frank Peda. I think it's quite possible that Pelissetti and Peda arrived at the scene, and Pelissetti hurriedly rushed to the kids to the alcove while simultaneously being told he was a white guy and that he walked up Cherry. He could have then proceed up Cherry while Peda checked on Stine, secured the crime scene, and radioed the updated description.

To my knowledge, no one ever spoke with Peda who died in 1998.

The vast differences in Foulke's story between what he said in 1989 and what he said in 2007 are impossible to reconcile.

Chaucer

3/20/2020 07:23:24 am

Also, in the 2007 documentary Pelissetti said they received the call at 9:55 and "responded very quickly".

Richard

3/20/2020 08:37:46 am

The time is irrelevant because Pelissetti and Fouke got the 1st call at the same time, so the exact same scenario above applies. They both would still be beginning their journey from the first radio alert. Pelissetti said they responded very quickly, but you were referring to Michael Butterfield, who stated "within minutes".

The trouble is, it was Pelissetti in the 2007 documentary that stated he checked on Stine, ushered the kids, retook the description and updated units to the new description. Even if Pelissetti arrived at the crime scene in 30 seconds, hurriedly ushered the kids over to their house and returned back to the intersection in another 30 seconds, and then took the cautious walk up Cherry, it would still be 2 1/2 minutes from 1st radio broadcast to the top of Cherry to meet Fouke. He likely has less than 90 seconds. But I am going on his statements in the 2007 documentary, where he recounts everything he did, not Peda. And I can only go on the accounts told, not on accounts untold.

Richard

3/20/2020 09:04:26 am

People talk about memory and changing or embellished accounts Chaucer, so I don't understand why people use the account of Donald Fouke and 3712 Jackson Street with such reverence. This cock and bull story by Donald Fouke was brought up in 2007 documentary, in which he stated he last saw the white male walking up the steps of 3712 Jackson, but didn't see him reach the top of the steps. How can he simultaneously see the white male here, and last see him walking north up Maple on November 12th 1969. I would place more credence on his statement in 1969 than 38 years later. Many people use this 3712 Jackson Street statement in their books, while routinely ignoring what Donald Fouke said in 1989, when in theory his memory and recollections should have been clearer. The reason people ignore 1989 is because of the narrative they are choosing to sell. Had Donald Fouke really saw a white man at 3712 Jackson, then after being informed by Pelissetti of the updated description, why didn't he head back to that address and knock the door or tell anybody. All he said "was let the inspectors follow through". Now Michael Butterfield mentions nothing of the 1989 documentary, but routinely refers to the 2007 documentary, 18 years later. Why? He clearly states he was heading to Arguello (away from the crime scene) when he got the update. We have to ask the question - why did Donald Fouke ignore the Cherry turning and head further away from the crime scene when he had been instructed a cabbie was being attacked. The most logical answer to me, is Zodiac sent him on that wild goose chase of a man "running and waving a gun". Alex Lewis pointed this documentary to me years ago, but it is routinely ignored if favour of memories from Donald Fouke 18 more years down the line. The story of Donald Fouke in 2007 completely contradicts his 1969 memorandum, but people still treat it as fact.

Richard

3/20/2020 09:08:07 am

Here is the clip of Fouke in 1989.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3kD-j25jQ&feature=youtu.be&t=57s

Richard

3/20/2020 09:14:14 am

In this clip he got the update by Arguello, not off Pelissetti in Cherry, while subsequently saying an expletive. Shall we believe 1989 or 2007?

Richard

3/20/2020 05:10:02 pm

Think of this Chaucer from the perspective of what we know. Fouke actually stated he and Zelms were by the intersection of Washington St and Presidio Avenue. Let us apply 9:58pm to when they received the 1st broadcast. They arrive at Jackson & Maple at 9:59 pm. They saw Zodiac here. Therefore Zodiac left the cab 3 minutes ago. So Zodiac left the cab at 9:56 pm. He took about 1 minute from cab to upper reaches of Cherry. Therefore Zodiac was about to exit Cherry at 9:57 pm.

Pelissetti got the 1st radio broadcast also at 9:58 pm. So the kids could never have pointed out Zodiac to Pelissetti. He wasn't at the crime scene at 9:57 pm. If yo apply 9:55 pm to the initial radio broadcast to both officers the same problem arises.

The Zodiac Killer Insights

3/20/2020 07:04:57 am

Well, I prefer a match. Then, and only then, do you have light! I hate darkness.
I fail to understand the allusion to the-sword-on-a-rock. It's 12:15 am and my brain is in sleep mode.
Having had prior online encounters with Tom Voigt, it seems that he continues folding his bottom lip over his head, while travelling down the yellow brick road ( I wonder if he's encountered one of the witches? ). I take everything he says or claims with a shovel of salt, and hastily throw it over my left shoulder. According to folklore, it works when wanting to ward off beelzebub and his posse.
The man is in a league of his own. And so is his forum. I will admit though, it's a great place when in need of a good laugh. It's a menagerie of dingbats, and a place filled with unhappy people that expel an effluvium of depression so strong that makes the dead rise and commit suicide.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/20/2020 07:29:55 am

One presumes that , unless anyone else knows better , then the '' Mason & Geary logged '' claim is yet more fantasy from Mr.Voigt whom , certainly has cultivated a reputation for attention-seeking material , with no actual substance in the real world .

3/20/2020 02:56:48 pm

Rubislaw 32

Was Belli's house near the Lyon street steps on the corner of Baker?

Rubislaw 32 link

3/20/2020 03:13:57 pm

1228 Montgomery Street ,BB .

I think that is just south of the North Beach area , over on the North-East side of the headland .

Richard

3/20/2020 03:18:53 pm

Between 1978 and 1992 Melvin Belli lived at 2950 Broadway, right next to the Lyon Street Steps. But not in 1969.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/2950+Broadway,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/Pacific+Heights,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/@37.7929185,-122.4451383,420m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x808580d2bb5a377f:0xd3bc9e0103d09145!2m2!1d-122.445618!2d37.7932553!1m5!1m1!1s0x808580c593750c47:0x26f06ef70d70f47c!2m2!1d-122.4382307!2d37.7925153!3e0

Two_Buck_Chuck link

3/20/2020 12:29:45 pm

Hi Guys,

Great stuff. A few observations and questions. Apologies if said questions have been answered before.

A "Widows Peak" doesn't mean balding. I've had widows peaks all my life, they are simply triangular indentations into the hair on the
side of the forehead and in my case at least, indicative of Irish ancestry.

I too don't understand why people ignore the descriptions. There are enough for a composite, human inaccuracy nonwithstanding.
Zodiac is 5'10"..ish 200 lb...ish, beefy upper body, dark brown hair with possible red or blond tints, of Northern European ancestry (Welsh?).
He isn't a 6'2" 300 lb schizophrenic, a 6 foot 250 pound pedophile or a pencil necked bald school teacher, nor a 160 lb
Jewish gangster with kinky black hair. For all the top suspects, methinks he is "none of the above".

I also agree that the sketch is rather non-descript. Every white guy that wasn't a hippie wore birth-control glasses and had a crew cut.
Are we sure the Zodiac isn't Sargeant Carter of Gomer Pyle fame?

1) How much blood would we expect to be on Zodiac? I know he wore dark clothing but...is it possible he put a light windbreaker
over his jacket and hid his bloody gloves in his pocket? I don't think the tiny gloves in the cab were his.

2) Did the cops quickly set up roadblocks? If not, why?

3) If Zodiac was on the Southern side of the street, which makes more sense, he may have seen another fellow
strolling down Jackson and witnessed the cops passing - then took advantage of this in his letter.

4) The Lyon Street Steps are quite a haul with cops everywhere, blood on your jacket and a gun in your pocket.
Plenty of time for setting up roadblocks. Strange there weren't a few more witnesses or anyone seeing an unknown car
taking off. I guess that neighborhood at 10 o'clock in 1969 was pretty desolate.

That's all for now. Thanks for you inputs...

Richard

3/20/2020 01:09:47 pm

When Zodiac shot Stine I would expect a little back spatter on his hand. But his clothing nothing. The widely spread notion that Zodiac had Stine's head in his lap makes little sense. Why would a killer knowing he was exiting the scene on foot, place the victim's head which was bleeding profusely in his lap, thereby soaking himself in blood. Stine's head was in the passenger footwell, so all the killer had to do was lean over him and tear a bit of shirt. All he has to do then is wipe his hands on a handkerchief and he is virtually blood free. There is no reason whatsoever for Zodiac to be covered in blood.

The cops certainly fanned out around the neighbourhood and circled the Presidio Park. But Zodiac had a good headstart and could have been at the east side before the search was fully implemented.

Donald Fouke only ever mentioned one man on Jackson, approaching the intersection of Jackson & Maple. This "encounter" was mentioned by Zodiac on November 9th 1969 in the Bus Bomb letter. The police "encounter" was never mentioned in any newspapers prior to November 9th 1969, but the author of the Bus Bomb letter knew about the two cops and their position on Jackson, so he knew unpublished information and therefore was Zodiac. Also, the description of the man matched the description given by the teenagers minutes earlier, and both matched the description given by eyewitnesses of a man running into Julius Khan playground. Three independent eyewitnesses in a 5 minute period as Zodiac left the cab and entered the park, all described a man with a median age of 40. The three teenagers described a man in his early forties, Officer Donald Fouke described the man as 35-45 (therefore a median age of 40) and the Julius Khan playground eyewitnesses described the man running into the park as about 40. Three sets of eyewitnesses pinpointing the Zodiac Killer as 40 years of age or slightly above.

Teenagers: Here is the full statement on page 2:of police report: "#2 SUSPECT: WMA, in his early forties, 5'8", heavy build, reddish-blond, crew cut hair. wearing eyeglasses, dark brown trousers, dark (navy blue or black) "Parka" jacket, dark shoes. Suspect should have many blood stains on his person and clothing, suspect may also be in possession of the keys to the Yellow Cab, possibly has wallet belonging to the victim. Last seen walking north on Cherry Street, from Washington Street".

Fouke: "WMA, 35-45 yrs, about 5'10", 180-200 lbs, medium heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear, crew cut, wearing glasses. Dressed in dark blue waist length zipper type jacket (Navy or royal blue). Elastic cuffs and waist band zipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust brown)".

Julius Khan: "about 40, 170lbs, with a blond crewcut, glasses, dark clothing".

Therefore it was likely the same person throughout.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/20/2020 01:42:03 pm

Hi Two Buck Chuck .

Just on the matter of 2 ) Did the cops quickly set up roadblocks ? If not , why ?

There is no evidence that the cops did set up roadblocks , but I believe that the Zodiac would have practised his getaway in a car (...given this the likeliest scenario...) more than any other aspect to this ( obvious ) '' project '' crime . And would have factored in , the time it might have taken for roadblocks to have been implemented .

Given the geographic proximity of the crime scene , in relation to the Golden Gate Bridge , any police chief or supervisor assessing the situation , would have seen the Golden Gate Bridge as the Zodiac's likeliest route of evacuation . The city of San Francisco held geographic jurisdiction to the far side of the Golden Gate Bridge , and this is where roadblocks would most likely have been implemented .But , if the Zodiac had done his homework , then he would have known this , and practised his getaway , time-wise , to the far side .

Beyond the far side of the bridge , is the county of Marin , and it is still possible that the implementation of roadblocks for the bridge , might have involved some conferring with Marin County Police .

The Zodiac then , probably considered the geographic location of the crime , with the proximity of Marin County , in mind , and earmarked as his general and initial evacuation area .

In addition , the Zodiac's selection of the time of day - just at the time , of a busy weekend evening , when the theatres were closing , and the taxi drivers' most hectic 1-2 hours of the whole week . Coupled with private vehicles attempting to leave the city , these might be good reasons for dissuading the implementation of roadblocks which , might have been perceived as potentially creating traffic gridlock , to part of the city .

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/20/2020 02:22:36 pm

Good points Rubislaw 32.

I imagine it would be hard to quickly implement roadblocks on the bridge at that time on a weekend night. He may also, anticipating the cops ideas, have just quietly gone through the city. Jump in the car, take off your glasses, put on a hat and you're just another white guy cruising thru town. Who knows, although I do think the Golden Gate the most likely route.

Even crazier is if he lived or knew of a house somewhere near Lyon St. where he could hide out for the night. Pure speculation obviously but that's where I like to go provided the evidence isn't precluded....

I find this crime particularly intriguing......

Rubislaw 32 link

3/20/2020 02:46:20 pm

Indeed , Two Buck Chuck , it certainly appears that much planning and practice went into this crime .

And , if the letter to John Lynch , four days before the crime , is to be believed , then he was falsely indicating that he might have resided , to the North-East of the headland . But this letter ,along with the possibility that he involved the red herring of falsely involving Robert H Coon , were retrospective '' F*ck you '' messages , that would only emerge , some days after the ''event ''.

The Zodiac's '' Finest hour '' ?

I think that the Zodiac thought so .

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/20/2020 01:53:26 pm

Thanks Richard, my idea was that Zodiac wasn't seen but another man was, Fouke and company may have missed him. But I essentially agree, with the three sightings, that it was most probably him, although 170 lbs. seems pretty light from the one witness. I'm guessing from the map that Z made it to Lyons street via the park, this would make more sense and produce fewer sightings. I'm sure he took a trial run.

On another point, doesn't it seem a silly ruse to say "I saw a guy waving a gun and running into the park". What kind of criminals shoot people and then wave guns around while escaping? I wouldn't expect a seasoned cop to fall for that, he would at least have asked if he was black. I understand your timeline and quotes from Fouke but that statement sounds like another Zodiac red herring to me....he may have also proceeded to Arguello just looking for the suspect before going to the crime scene.....just a thought....

Richard

3/20/2020 02:32:41 pm

We don't actually know what Zodiac said to Donald Fouke, he could have been exaggerating in the letter with a touch of triumphalism. If When Donald Fouke saw the white male, it would have made sense to ask a member of the public "have you seen a black male in the vicinity acting suspicious". The Zodiac (having just murdered) wants to get the police off his back and can't believe they aren't holding him, so gives them what they want. Zodiac could have said "Yes, I've just seen a shady looking black man heading towards Arguello". He may have added in a gun, by saying "I noticed he had a sidearm" or "was carrying a gun". But in his boasting letter there is nothing stopping him from laying it on thick and saying "I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber". It doesn't necessarily mean these were his exact words. Donald Fouke, knowing at that point his suspect is a black male and not the man in front of him, probably just believed he was being aided by a good citizen. And Donald Fouke in my estimation took the correct course of action. He has to weigh up the severity of an assault on a taxicab driver, to the imminent danger to other members of the public, especially if Zodiac stated "I believe the black male was carrying a gun". Donald Fouke made the correct choice in that moment and headed towards Arguello. When he got the corrected description by Arguello he probably surmised he had been tricked. Because he last saw the WMA heading north on Maple, that is why he continued onwards into West Pacific Avenue.

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/20/2020 05:00:04 pm

Interesting stuff Rubislaw32. I need to look over those letters you refer to. This guy just gets more devious with each rabbit hole. I do think we've probably attributed things to Z that have no legitimate basis but such is the nature of a beast with so many unknowns. He can't have thought of everything. As the saying goes, this guy had too much time on his hands....

Richard, I get what you're saying about Z laying it on thick. Of that I'm sure but I'm still not convinced a conversation actually took place with Fouke. I see it as just more of Z just sticking it to the Blue Meanies. I just think something would have seemed off about a chubby guy who just killed somebody, did a bunch of cleaning up and hoofed it up the hill. If not some obvious blood somewhere I imagine he was sweating and a bit out of breath if nothing else..by the way, what was the temperature that night? I imagine cool but I haven't seen that statistic that I recall.

Fouke's ageing memory certainly played some tricks but I don't think he would forget a conversation and as you said, doing the right thing, I see no reason for a cover up....

Richard

3/20/2020 05:20:00 pm

The problem we have if no conversation took place between Fouke and Zodiac, would be Donald Fouke therefore just decided to ignore his priorities of responding to an attacked cab driver who may have needed his urgent assistance, and just swanned off up Arguello and away from the crime scene. The first responsibility of any responding officer should be to head to the crime scene they have been directed to, unless something of higher priority overrides this.

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/21/2020 07:12:07 am

The only thing I can think of Richard is that he knew there would be other officers at the crime scene checking on the cabbie. He may have been pursuing a suspect down to Arguello. I must admit though, it does seem odd....

3/23/2020 12:13:07 pm

Slightly off topic.

I’m curious if anyone has a good theory as to why Zodiac decided to turn left and enter the park via Maple Street. Wouldn’t it have been quicker and less risky to continue walking straight into the park via Cherry Street?

Remember, Zodiac originally wanted to head to Washington and Maple (not Cherry). It seems that when the cab descended a block down towards Cherry, Zodiac decided to go back to Maple to enter the park via that street. It seems like he was trying to keep with an original escape route and didn’t want the fact that his plan was off by a block get in the way.

Even if he had a car parked at Maple and Pacific Avenue, it would have probably been safer to get to keep walking straight on Cherry and turn left on Pacific instead of doing so on Jackson, where there are residences on both sides of the street.

It seems Zodiac wanted to stick with Maple Street.

Richard

3/23/2020 04:13:28 pm

Zodiac stated "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again".

About 1 1/2 blocks from just before Jackson/Maple is Spruce Street. This is where Zodiac was likely spotted entering the park as described here.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/7117234.jpg?668

I believe Zodiac feigned to go north on Maple after his interaction with Fouke & Zelms, but when they disappeared he reentered Jackson and walked down to Spruce. The description of the man entering Julius Khan playground matched that of the teenagers and Donald Fouke. My guess is Zodiac planned his escape route that night and had a rudimentary knowledge of the area, but other than the residents at the northernmost tip of Cherry and Maple, and people extremely familiar with every detail of these two locations, other people would have been unaware of a route through to the park via Cherry and Maple. You cannot see access to the park via Cherry and Maple in daylight, never mind at 10pm at night. Here are the views.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.7895746,-122.457379,3a,60y,353.13h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snd1PMhxyszw7CLvqB_sXiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.7897952,-122.4557739,3a,60y,341.88h,88.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0Zw4pXlk_hSpBW5-Wpx1IQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

But Spruce Street has a visible thorougfare.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.7900074,-122.4541561,3a,30y,347.89h,85.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq-xGfgXSXwaYg0Ofq7_R-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

3/24/2020 04:47:21 am

Thank you Richard for clarifying.

I am just trying to guess if Zodiac had a pre-planned escape route, which may have been disrupted by the Robbins kids seeing him during the commission of the crime and the cops showing up earlier than he hoped/expected.

What if Zodiac didn’t hear the police car sirens and didn’t encounter two cops shortly after the crime? Would he still have headed into the park, or was there another place he planned to end up in (a car or residence)?

We obviously will never know the answer, but maybe we can guess based on the original planned location of the crime and even the direction he walked towards until he ran into the two cops.

Cheers

Richard

3/24/2020 05:34:44 am

I believe the Zodiac knew the teenagers saw him, and why he donned Stine's glasses. This is what police stated after Deborah Perez claimed she had in her possession Paul Stine's glasses. "San Francisco police said Thursday that they were still waiting for Perez to produce a pair of glasses that she said her father took as a souvenir from a cab driver he killed. Police believe the Zodiac shot a San Francisco taxi driver named Paul Stine on Oct. 11, 1969. Reports of the crime say that Stine's glasses were missing. Once you make complaints to a police department, you are required by law to provide the evidence to a police agency, and there is no reason to believe she is not going to do that", said San Francisco Police Sgt. Lyn Tomioka. Asked whether police were taking her claims seriously, Tomioka said: "We take any new leads or any new information or evidence and look at it seriously, and then we follow up to see if there is any legitimacy to the statements".

Why (if Paul Stine's glasses were recovered from the crime scene on October 11th) did they even entertain her story. Surely a 5 minute check could have exposed her immediately. The fact they didn't dismiss her story immediately, could suggest Stine's glasses were missing. No other eyewitness in the Zodiac case described a killer with glasses (only clip-on glasses).

Zodiac was apparently destined for Washington & Maple, so likely had intended to head north up Maple (hence why he backtracked from Washington and Cherry, and east on Jackson. A quick exit from Washington & Maple, up Maple, and turning right onto Jackson gets him out of view, before heading to the only thoroughfare he knew, at Spruce. I think his intention remained the same, sirens or no sirens. An escape into the park takes him off the neighbouring streets on which police would be possibly approaching the crime scene, and in relative obscurity can head through the park to the Lyon Steps. Here his vehicle will not be spotted in the close vicinity to the crime scene and the Cow Hollow region provides easy access to Highway 101 and immediate egress from San Francisco over the Golden Gate Bridge back to Vallejo.

Richard

3/24/2020 05:47:37 am

The area of Presidio Heights and the location he chose for the murder (likely Washington & Maple originally) provides near access to the park to hide, but isn't next to the park, so somebody could see him committing the murder and entering the park. His journey up Maple before turning right on Jackson takes him quickly out of view. Then it's a matter of walking to Spruce. He achieves separation from the line of sight from Washington & Maple by turning right, he achieves separation by entering the park, and achieves separation by heading over the Golden Gate Bridge via a main highway in a matter of minutes.

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/24/2020 06:40:05 am

Hi all,

What do you all think about Q Man’s hypothesis that Z actually shot Stine at Maple St. then jumped up front, took over the wheel and drove a block down to Cherry?

After all, the kids heard no shot fired and the angle of the cab toward the corner seemed a little more extreme than would be expected from a cabbie’s regular stop...?

Richard

3/24/2020 07:00:57 am

I have covered this several times and has some merit. This idea was first floated by Paul Holes on Michael Butterfield's site here in 2009:
http://zodiackillerfacts.com/main/mysteryquest-paul-holes-and-the-murder-of-paul-stine/

It has some merit if you look at the blood staining on Paul Stine's shirt. If the taxicab driver was shot and he immediately slumped to his right, as depicted in the Zodiac movie, how would his wound (with his head in the passenger side floorboard of the vehicle) manage to bleed against gravity and produce the blood staining on Paul Stine's shirt on both left and right side. The shirt exhibits a measurable period of time when his body remained in an upright.
position. The only other explanation would be the three teenagers recollections, in which they stated "hey both watched and observed in silence as Zodiac pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the driver's door. Stine had fallen over onto the seat and Zodiac pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard". The lack of a gunshot being heard could support a Washington & Maple murder, but it's equally possible that although the kids didn't recall a gunshot, it may have been the noise that drew them to the window. In other words, they didn't recognise it as a gunshot, but it was.

Two_Buck_Chuck

3/24/2020 07:53:26 am

Sorry to make you repeat stuff Richard but it's only in the interest of expediency.

I find this very interesting. One wonders if Z pulled a gun on Stine early and he wasn't cooperating. Obviously he needed the cab to be in park before he shot the cabbie or else it would start rolling..If he shot him and if the cab wasn't in park it may have started rolling and forced Z to take over the wheel.

The problem I have with this is it seems Z would have more blood on him...that Fouke may have noticed....?

Another weird detail, it seems to me the square 'rip' of the shirt was very precise. I'm not sure if the shirt had a boundary or what it was made of but it's not that easy to rip a dense shirt that has a collar or boundary around it....I wonder if he cut it out with a knife or scissors? Not very important but it seemed Z proceeded calmly and methodically without nervousness....

Richard

3/24/2020 08:41:03 am

"Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he's stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place". They could have mistook the cutting of the shirt with a knife for a stabbing. Simply misinterpreted what they saw.

That article stated "As the cab rolled forward, the killer either jumped from the back seat into the front, or he exited the back seat by opening the door and then jumped into the front seat with Stine’s lifeless body. In order to reach the steering wheel and the pedals, the killer would have been forced to push Stine’s body toward the driver’s door into an upright position where he would remain as long as the killer struggled to regain control of the vehicle". Had this been the case, the majority of blood transfer would have been to Zodiac's left side. One has to ask why when Zodiac entered Jackson from Cherry, why didn't he stay on the south side of Jackson away from oncoming vehicles or police unit headlights? Why did he walk on the north side into oncoming headlights? One remote possibility was to shield his more blooded left side from facing the road - a road from which oncoming police vehicles would only clearly see his right side.
It's only guesswork mind.

3/24/2020 07:18:39 am

I think if I was planning an escape route through the Spruce thoroughfare, the crime would ideally be planned in one of two places:

1. Jackson and Spruce: This is the quickest escape route. A straight dark into the park.
2. Jackson and Maple: Not the quickest, but provides a separation from the crime scene, because you have to turn on Spruce.

Washington and Maple just sounds a little too risky for a quick getaway. Unless the getaway vehicle was parked in that area, or he had access to one of the homes on the block.

Also, the only reason Z would go into the park is to hide. I don’t think going into the park was part of the original plan. He just needed to lay low until the search was over.

Lastly, the line about “never to be seen again” coming only a few days after the crime, seems a bit contrived for some reason. It seems like he was trying to dispel something.

Richard

3/24/2020 07:34:16 am

As you stated Mo, everything is mostly conjecture. He may have ducked into the park and reemerged to enter his vehicle or residence. What we can say is it's almost certain he was the man running into Julius Khan playground because that description given by eyewitnesses does match almost identically to the teenagers description in the police report, and the description given by Donald Fouke. It also matches the timeline, and his admission in the Bus Bomb letter. But I accept his ducking into the park could have been temporary respite. But it proves his vehicle (if he had one) wasn't positoned on Jackson St prior to him entering the park at Spruce Street, otherwise he could have just got in it and driven away, not walked past it. Likewise, I doubt his vehicle was parked somewhere in Maple, because he entered the park at Spruce, rather than turn right into Maple and drive away. So if he had a vehicle parked, the odds are it was east of Spruce, and likewise for a residence.

Two_Buck_Chuck link

3/24/2020 09:58:30 am

I think the consensus here is probably the most likely. His car was near the steps and he had no problem meandering through the park to get there. A car on Maple seems too risky as he could pass cops immediately upon driving away.

I'm not sure what real estate went for near the steps but I imagine, almost certainly being of military background, that Z wasn't wealthy enough to have lived there. Is it possible he knew of an empty house he could break into one for a while or even was house sitting someone he knew? Also seems unlikely. If anyone saw him entering a house and heard the police sirens he could be pointed out or even if the dogs tracked him there......once in a house he's in a prison that could be surrounded and overtaken.....or maybe he had been seen around before and no one would suspect him....again all this conjecture seems far-fetched.....I like the jumping in a car at the Floyd Steps and absconding over the Golden Gate Bridge idea...it also seems the Occam's razor choice....

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