THE DEMON SLAYER

10/22/2018

Paul Avery, a reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle, covered many of the Zodiac stories during his reign of terror and became the focus of the murderer's attention when the Zodiac Killer mailed the Halloween card to the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper on October 27th 1970. The murderer responded to an article published on November 16th 1970 by Paul Avery, linking him to the Riverside murder of Cheri Jo Bates on October 30th 1966. This would be followed nearly three years later, when the Exorcist letter was mailed on January 29th 1974, closely followed by the SLA letter on February 3rd 1974, mailed the day before the Symbionese Liberation Army kidnapping of Patty Hearst, a media heiress, on February 4th 1974. "Paul Avery covered the Hearst case until the newspaper heiress-turned-bank robber was arrested in September 1975. Avery then holed up on his houseboat at Gate 5 in Sausalito with Boston writer Vin McLellan to write The Voices of Guns, a book on the SLA and the Hearst kidnapping." Wikipedia.

The Exorcist letter has recently courted new attention with the publication of Mike Rodelli's new book 'The Hunt for Zodiac: The Inconceivable Double Life of a Notorious Serial Killer', pouring some doubt on the authenticity of this communication. This letter, once again, appeared another response to a Paul Avery newspaper article, featuring the recently released Exorcist movie - an American horror film released in 1973, directed by William Friedkin and adapted for screenplay by William Peter Blatty, based on his 1971 book. The San Francisco Chronicle article entitled Weird Goings on at the Movies, was published on January 11th 1974 and detailed the audience reaction to what they had just experienced. The opening lines of the article are extremely interesting when we consider the opening lines of the January 29th 1974 Exorcist letter, only 18 days later.

View Exorcist article

The article began "If these crowds queuing up three times a night for "The Exorcist" prove anything, it's that a lot of people are willing to go to a lot of trouble to get their wits scared out of them. Since the day after Christmas, some 60,000 persons have endured a harsh winter's elements standing in lines - sometimes for as long as two hours - to see the see the current cinema rage playing at the Northpoint Theater near Fisherman's Wharf. It is an experience that produces reactions ranging from vomiting to fainting, to one apparently jaded patron's demand for his money back because it was about as scary as Snow White".

The author of the 'Exorcist' letter apparently concurred with this disgruntled patron, beginning the letter with "I saw + think "The Exorcist" was the best satirical comedy that I have ever seen". The author also made sure to place "The Exorcist" in quotation marks, just like the article. If this letter was the Zodiac Killer, he would go on to use quotation marks around words in his following two correspondences - something he had never previously done in his communications from 1969 to 1971.

It could be argued that the middle section of the Exorcist letter is signed yours truley 'Ko-Ko Lord High Executioner' by means of Tit-Willow from The Mikado's On a tree by a river. The same can be said of the Little List letter on July 26th 1970, which also featured Ko-Ko in A more humane Mikado.

Then we travel to the most interesting part of the Exorcist letter at the bottom of the correspondence, and its comparison to the first letters mailed by the Zodiac Killer on July 31st 1969. The Exorcist letter was mailed to the San Francisco Chronicle, so we will take a look at the July 31st 1969 letter mailed to the same paper. This is what the killer signed off with: "I want you to print this cipher on the front page of your paper. In this cipher is my idenity. If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry. night. I will cruse around all weekend killing lone people in the night then move on to kill again, until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend." It begins with a demand to print his material in the paper and finishes with the threat "to kill" again if his instructions are not followed.

The foot of the Exorcist letter begins with a demand to put this note in the paper and finishes with a threat you know he is capable of. We know what the killer was capable of - it is "to kill" - as he threatened at the foot of the July 31st 1969 San Francisco Chronicle letter if his demands to print the cipher were not met. Even the decoded cipher rammed home the message "To kill something gives me the most thrilling experience". Therefore, by logical deduction, the strange characters at the foot of the Exorcist letter should read "To Kill". Thanks to the great work of Zodiac researcher Kevin Robert Brooks, this is exactly what he showed. Even more importantly, the beginning of each word began with an upper case letter, just like "The Exorcist" - forming the words "To Kill" with significant emphasis on the 'K' of "Kill".

Click image to view full letter

This emphasis would be carried forward into the SLA letter, mailed on February 3rd 1974, where he used quotation marks to highlight the word "kill" once more. The murderer now appeared to have slayed his demons, signing off the letter with "a friend" - albeit, a friend you wouldn't invite home for tea and scones with grandma.

His reformation now appeared complete in the May 8th 1974 Citizen letter, remonstrating against the publication of advertisements for the "Badlands" movie starring Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek, based upon the real life events of spree killers Charles Raymond Starkweather and his girlfriend Caril Ann Fugate.

His final consternation would be reserved for Marc H Spinelli in the July 8th 1974 Red Phantom letter, calling for the cancellation of his Count Marco column. The murderer now seemingly devoid of the Zodiac persona after exorcising his demons subsequent to January 29th 1974, along with his inability to spell.

Had the Zodiac Killer returned after an absence of nearly three years, or was the return of the Bay Area murderer a demon that had to be resurrected for the sake of publicity in an ever dwindling case?

73 Comments

Judith

10/22/2018 06:57:19 am

I've never thought the Red Phantom was the work of the Zodiac Killer please explain why some folks do.

Richard

10/22/2018 08:07:03 am

I agree, the Red Phantom letter looks the least likely Zodiac letter, but again handwriting analysis is subjective, as is opinion. Nobody can agree on the simplest of things in the Zodiac case, therefore agreeing on a letter is like quantum physics by comparison.

Drew

10/22/2018 09:41:29 am

I think we are to assume that it was a combination of handwriting similarities (not that it looks to me like anything Zodiac had written previously - the Belli letter perhaps in so far as stylization was involved in both), timing, tone, the belief that Zodiac's spelling and language was far more sophisticated than previously shown, and the creative pseudonym itself that has kept the Red Phantom in the category of possible Zodiac correspondence, and that none of the 1974 letters had prints other than the palm print on the Exorcist. If these letters did have prints they would have been able even in 1974 to compare them to the partial from the cab, and I believe that if they had such compelling evidence in the form of inclusive match results that it would have been publicly revealed by now (but of course that is only an assumption). For me the idea that a hoaxer without prints locally on file or innocent of involvement in the Zodiac crimes would be unlikely to take such precautions (not that writing with gloves would require much effort). Tenuous as that sounds it might be the strongest suggestion for me that the Red Phantom could be Zodiac.

Although the Keel quote courtesy of Mike Rodelli indicates that one of the 1974 letters is a fake (not that any but Exorcist actually claim to be Zodiac), for me they all seem like they are authored by the same creep, Zodiac or not. I feel as though they are all Zodiac or none are. I also like to keep mentioning in these discussions about outlier Zodiac letters that it seems like a sneaky clue or mathematically improbable coincidence that the unpublished Dec 69 Fairfield letter held the promise of a collection of 38 victims while the Exorcist letter claimed 37 with the threat to do something nasty (to kill) if not published. I might suggest an article about all the presumed coincidences in the Zodiac saga but I think such a task would be too arduous!

Richard

10/22/2018 01:45:25 pm

You may be right Drew, all or none. The idea the Zodiac would splash his palm print on the Exorcist letter after vehemently denying he left any prints at Presidio, seems at odds. I do know the palm prints were not as widely regarded as a risk compared to fingerprints back in the early 70s. Criminals knew all about fingerprints, but lesser so, the idea that palm and foot impressions could incriminate them.

"I might suggest an article about all the presumed coincidences in the Zodiac saga but I think such a task would be too arduous!"
Can you elaborate with an example Drew.

Drew

10/22/2018 05:35:28 pm

Coincidence may not be the correct word for the stuff that is on my mind, suspicious happenings and/or innocent police screw-ups might be better, but there are several aspects of each crime that at first seem relevant, but have thus far remained unproven to bear any relation.

A half hour or less before the Lake Herman Road shooting there was a substantial drug bust just down the street. Their investigation of the drug angle goes nowhere. Several hunters are in the area at the time and the killer discusses his passion for hunting, but none of the hunters appear to have anything to do with the crime. The missing shell casing may have been towed away with the car but another strong theory is that a police officer took it as a souvenir. Even though the first two crime scenes and the police-hating letters that followed had some indication that a police-trained culprit could be involved, such as the flashlight approach and a seemingly keen knowledge of police procedures, no policeman has emerged as a viable suspect.

At Blue Rock Springs the police find a young married woman in a recently patrolled lovers lane of sorts late at night with a man other than her husband. Although initial reports suggest a revenge shooting and they hear stories about her very checkered dating history (including dating a cop recently thrown off the force), no one connected to her emerges as a viable as a suspect. Quickly they find the payphone where the killer called the police station but a rookie cop accidentally destroys any attempt to obtain a print. A policeman claims to have heard the recording of the phone call but it turns out that he was flat out lying about a recording ever being made. Oh yeah and the police almost go on strike almost immediately after the crime.

At Lake Berryessa a seasoned park ranger decides to pack up the crime scene before it can be investigated by police. A policeman takes a description of the killer from the dying witness who was the only person up to this point who had seen his face, but allegedly didn't report it because he didn't think it was important. Tom Voigt actually said that he has seen the report of Cecilia's description but was not able to obtain a copy and it has not surfaced publicly.

At Washington and Cherry police dispatchers inexplicably send out a damningly incorrect description of the killer. The killer is stopped by police under the wrong impression about the suspect description who let the suspect go and fail to put it in the report.

Those are some of the things I was thinking about. Stuff like Mike Mageau having a police record, three layers of cloths on the fourth of July, and having a twin brother who was also interested in the murder victim. The killer reportedly has the same kind and colour of car as the victim, which he for some reason the killer attempts to confirm in a letter. They are just odd tidbits of information that seem like they could lead us to the killer but obviously haven't. At any rate thanks for reading I know that was a long one!

Nobody

10/22/2018 09:31:37 pm

Drew, exactly how many of those suspicious happenings can we verify as being true events I wonder?

But I do agree with you about coincidences in the Zodiac case, which seemed plagued with coincidental and bizarre happenings from the outset. And it seems the harder we look the more coincidences we will find. Separating fact from fiction, consequential from coincidental, becomes an exercise both challenging and dangerous. How do we know if the coincidences are related in some way to the case or just plain coincidences.

For example we could form a very sound argument based on that symbol on the Halloween card. It looks coincidentally like the Flying VF cattle brand, so, we might say, this suggests the Zodiac had a background as a cowboy or rancher, or he worked in a meat works or leather factory. But can we say for certain if the writer of the card had this symbol in mind, or was he intending to suggest something entirely different? Of course we do not know, and there is the potential danger in all of this. I have seen it happen on online forums many times. People grasp hold of an idea and run away with it. Before long they have turned a coincidental thing into a firm belief based on other coincidental things. They can even become quite obsessed and arrogant in their belief. I have seen many intelligent people transform into Gollum the Stoor Hobbit in their pursuit of these "PRECIOUS" coincidental ideas.

Of course, if we ignore all of the coincidental things surrounding the case we may also run the risk of missing some crucial detail.

Nobody

10/22/2018 09:34:48 pm

"Nobody can agree on the simplest of things in the Zodiac case, therefore agreeing on a letter is like quantum physics by comparison."

Nobody can agree! Haha.

Drew

10/23/2018 07:49:36 am

The Flying V Colorado cattle brand "connection" is a perfect example of the crazy leads in this case. It is a very close match to the Zodiac's Halloween card symbol and Fred Harman the cartoonist owner of this Pagosa Springs Red Ryder ranch created the comic book referenced on the same card (By gun by knife and all that). How can that not be a clue worth pursuing? Brian Hartnell wasn't certain his attacker said he came from Montana, he thought it could have been Colorado. Is there a connection to Colorado? Probably not. If there was, he almost certainly wouldn't have mentioned it or alluded to it in a card.

I have looked extensively into a San Francisco/Santa Cruz suspect who lived in Colorado in 1966 with his first wife who would became a Zodiac victim in 1969. He was the son of a highway patrol officer and he was a former military guy and gun enthusiast and an avid hunter with cryptography training who spent 6 months in the Presidio mental hospital before marrying and moving to Vallejo. He was a newspaper man who wrote for a Fairfield newspaper, a place Zodiac may have referenced, before he had to flee bum check writing charges. He also lived with her in Albany New York where someone who might have been Zodiac sent a letter in 1973. The couple also lived and worked at a hotel casino in South Lake Tahoe. And yes, of course he drove a brown Corvair as described by Mike Mageau, was roughly the size of Zodiac and wore horn-rimed glasses. Does any of that get us closer to proving his guilt? Not at all, I would wager the man is as innocent as every other known suspect in the case.

Nobody

10/24/2018 12:29:32 am

It is interesting Drew that there do seem to be these occasional coincidental (?or perhaps deliberately placed?) "leads", but ultimately they are leads that run down some rabbit hole and after a few initial twists and turns they ultimately lead to a dead end in the dark. This makes me wonder if these "clews" were largely red herrings, or, as I said before, just "residual leakings" from a cracked, eclectic mind.

Drew

10/24/2018 09:17:36 am

I think everything in the letters was strictly disinformation. If all of the victims didn't seem random (an MO which the police irresponsibly allowed reporters to write about in the Spring of 69 as the main reason he would be nearly impossible to catch) and he wasn't sloppy enough to leave all of them but Paul Stine alive to potentially talk to police, I would believe he was trained in covert assassinations and subterfuge. He created a fictional maniac character designed to terrorize the city, embarrass the police, and give himself personal pleasure. I've gone down the rabbit hole of assuming who he might have been in terms of ex-cop, wannabe cop, military, reporter, theatre, cult-affiliated... and I have even found all of those things in a suspect intimately related to the case (cleared in 1970), but I now think that all of those 'clues' are bunk and that the real guy is unknown to the investigation, an otherwise normal 9-5 employed resident of the Bay area who worked in San Francisco (or the other way around). A crazed outdoorsman is about as specific a profile as I could offer.

What we have is a psychopath who was careful enough to wear gloves when he wrote who left nothing useful behind but a bloody partial. If he licked his stamps it seems that time and poor storage has covered his tracks for him. I don't believe he wanted to be caught at all and that he felt very confident that he wouldn't be. Crime in California went into hyperdrive within a week of his writing to the media (Manson) and either he evolved with the times and became a residential killer (the kind of which we would never be able to track) or he lost the motivation to compete with episodes like the April 70 San Francisco home invasion/ritual killing of Robert Salem (which I believe authorities considered him a strong suspect in). I think he ended his campaign because he and the world moved beyond the limits of what he was capable of. If I could conjure a political motive beyond wasting time and resources I might consider that some kind of organization was behind it all but that has gotten me no where. It was likely all just a sick pointless game that he eventually got tired of, probably after marrying a nice lady and raising kids and excelling at his career. I don't know, if something nefarious becomes known about the Sierra Club or a message is discovered in the 340 (which I believe is expertly engineered gibberish) then I will know I am wrong, but I think if the mystery is ever solved it will simply reveal a sad disturbed boring loser behind it all.

Richard

10/24/2018 02:45:00 pm

I think he killed people for no other reason than they were there. There was no special plan or grand scheme. He was a brutal killer lacking empathy, who sought defenseless victims. The Zodiac case has developed into something larger than life - something that just isn't there.

Drew

10/24/2018 03:01:20 pm

Agreed. I have searched long enough for a fiction-worthy explanation. I hope they solve it at this point just so that the pathetic numbskull doesn’t go down in history as some kind of phantom criminal mastermind.

Nobody

10/24/2018 04:39:05 pm

I think you are both spot on with your estimation of this killer. Many people have him pegged as the ultimate Machiavellian, Moriarty-style super-villain, and will not consider anything less. I have long believed that the Zodiac relied as much on sheer luck to retain his anonymity than any measure of superior intellect (be it feigned or otherwise).

The Zodiac became like a bizarre product of his times, and one whose profile was aided considerably by an all too eager press. Some cynical people may even say he was "marketed" by the press to a degree. This kind of media saturation lends itself well to the creation of myths. The stage was already set in 1969 for the impending public perception of "the Zodiac" as some kind of larger than life anti-hero. The fact that he got away, either by his own attempts at subterfuge or sheer dumb luck, has only served to inflate this public perception over time. Give the case to any number of imaginative people and you will soon see the result: a cacophony of competing conclusions.

The very name "Zodiac" conjures up all manner of memorizing astrological/constellational/conspiratorial thoughts in most people. The name itself lends itself very well to fictional thinking and mythology based around a time which was already a mythical "Age of Aquarius" - a time when some considered "anything was possible". The obscure symbolism used by the Zodiac are also quasi-astronomical in origin, but so obscure that they may also be deemed Celtic in origin or from ancient Norway, Estonia, Listonia, or perhaps they were Spartan or Cretan, or Greek? It matters not. It becomes a case of take your pick, depending on who you consider the Zodiac to be.

Rather than being someone as exotic and famous, important and illustrious as Kjell Qvale, he may turn out to be a local garbage truck driver who died in the gutter by suffocating on his own vomit after a drunken bar brawl in 1971.

Nobody

10/24/2018 04:43:37 pm

edit: memorizing = mesmerizing. Score one to auto-correct!

10/22/2018 01:10:14 pm

Drew -

Paul Avery was on the Zodiac's Little List - but a few years prior
Paul Coates nationally syndicated editorial, "The Minutemen 'Have a Little List'." He said MM had him (Coates) on their Hit list.
Also MM were connected with this escape -
July 1968, 12 convicts escaped from Deer Lodge, Montana. All but one was caught by July 26, 1968. The lone uncaught escapee was Harold Bates, 26 (Just a curious question - maybe Harold was related to CJB?)

The Minute Men are an underground quasi para military group of gun nuts. They are the last refuge for many scoundrels. They have been referred to as too trigger happy by their own men. It is all too curious. I'm just throwing pasta up to see if it sticks.

Drew

10/22/2018 05:52:30 pm

The possible links between the Minutemen and Zodiac are fascinating Blue Belly. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough concrete stuff there to really build from but they may be the most interesting reading in the case for me.

Nobody

10/22/2018 07:48:39 pm

I agree in part BB. There does seem to be something about the concept of Zodiac Minutemen (the boats I mean) floating over this case like the carcass of a dead whale. I can smell it but just can't trace its source or relevance for the time being.

Nobody

10/22/2018 04:01:18 pm

"Inconceivable double life"?

Isn't it more a case of "inconceivable quadruple life"?

If we believe that all of this correspondence into the 1970s and beyond that decade came from one person, it does seem just a bit ... inconceivable. :)

"Hey pigs, I like hunting critters in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal of all... tit willow, tit willow, I am going to write a little list of those who will never be missed... oh and by the way I have just watched the Exorcist and found it to be the best satirical comedy I have ever seen... and while we are at it, let's put Marco back in the hell hole from whence he came... and of course Pat Boone's theocratic crap is an obscenity to the world... now let me do my Thing you know I am capable of doing... to kill... My Name is blah blah blah... so publish this cipher on the front page of the paper or else you will have to wear my buttons... and did you know by the way that SLA spells Symbionese Liberation Army?.. he said as he plunged himself into the billowing wave... tit willow, tit willow."

10/22/2018 05:01:23 pm

The Exorcist Letter symbol also makes the name Kjell

Rubislaw 32 link

10/22/2018 05:33:28 pm

Yes BB, ''Kjell'' to add to Knife,Kill,and perhaps Kid.

I see the real point of Zodiac's ''exercise'' for us,is to present an ''abstraction'',that persuade us,to spend time,trying to figure out.

There is a body of opinion,in the fine art world,that believes that some of the great abstract painters,in the past,were drawn to that style of painting,through poor sight,without seeking assistance to correct that poor sight.

I do wonder if some of the inspiration for Zodiac's literal or figurative ''out of focus'' aspects to his puzzles....were the result of noting ''novelties'',when he removed his regular and probable,bi-focal spectacles.

10/22/2018 06:04:00 pm

Rubislaw 32
You get it! You or I as the artist - we have great difficulty expressing self in the everyday state. To really do so - effectively one must transcend the normal. We have to get creative. Even the broken clock is right twice a day. The trick is knowing when we get it right. I think one of us could hit a home run one of these times that Richard lobs it up for us. But if you don't take a wild swing you'll never have a chance. Some of that Watt's philosophy is rubbing off on me. I am the broken clock. Help! LOL

Rubislaw 32 link

10/23/2018 08:43:25 pm

I have just had a quick look at Watts.BB.

A fascinating man [?].Highly intelligent,obviously.I hadn't realised the extent of his liberal leanings.

Clearly saw America as ''the new world'',and moved to New York,at a young age.Interesting that his first mother-in-law,remained his best friend,throughout most of his life.

Perhaps,the very first ''hippie'' [?].Moving to SF,and a pioneer of the movement,to come.

Surprising that alcoholism did for him eventually [?].The implication that the Eastern philosophy that he had harnessed....wasn't enough for his ''inner self'' [?].

Certainly helped popularised Eastern philosophy in the West,and,as you intimated,opened our eyes to the idea that wisdom is simply that.

Wherever it comes from.

10/24/2018 05:53:46 pm

Rubislaw 32
Watts may have taken his own life It does not look 100% known.
A lot of folk spiral out of control before they pass away. And in the end like Elvis Presley, and for so many, many others their last couple years or so, they don't look so good. And, everyone judges them on the basis of how they looked in those last few years. But that surely is not who they were. Labels like new age wacko or fatso. Or, even prostitute as these journalists call the gals that are murdered by these nasty men we label serial killers. It's not right - they are just girls or women. They are usually on their last leg too. Having been ostracized or kicked out on the street by a parent incapable of caring anymore. Or they were marginalized or shunned by their community for a crime they may have committed. And, now if they put down on their resume that they have a felony in their past the application form is thrown away. When they fail to put down that they had a felony in their younger days then it is an automatic six months in jail. You would rather get three years in prison than six months in jail any day. I had a crazy uncle tell me about his five year prison sentence was cut to two because he did six months of it in jail during the trial. Hard time they call it. They have a dozen different types of time. There is good time, and time and a half, and yard time, and down time, and hole time, and double time, and he told me there is a lot more I just don't remember offhand. But, the point is these guys take it very serious and they want people to count every day correctly - They want credit for their time - and they hate when reporters don't report about their time accurately - everyday matters to them. Most of them are human. I don't consider serial killers human though. They are scum. But I am still against the death penalty because I have witnessed how often we get the wrong guy. So, just-in-case we better not kill the innocent. After all is that not what killed Jesus - wrongful execution by the state.

Drew

10/22/2018 06:17:59 pm

"I see the real point of Zodiac's ''exercise'' for us,is to present an ''abstraction'',that persuade us,to spend time,trying to figure out."

Bingo!

10/22/2018 06:55:46 pm

Drew - you said a mouthful man - Those are some of the things I was thinking about..... Are you kidding me man? That was a big mike drop baby! You get a gold star for that - for sure! I can't believe. They are just odd tidbits of information that seem like they could lead us to the killer but obviously haven't. At any rate thanks for reading I know that was a long one! ----- I wish it just went on & on!
Are you kidding? That was too Cool for School!

Nobody

10/22/2018 07:45:08 pm

I get the irony in what you are saying Drew. Others evidently do not. ;-)

Nobody

10/22/2018 09:47:27 pm

I was of course speaking generally about "people on online forums", not pointing the finger at anyone specifically. :-)

Abstraction is what the White Rabbit is all about, isn't it? The rabbit hole can lead one anywhere, even from a Funny Car on to a Surrealistic Pillow.

And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall

When the men on the chessboard get up and tell you where to go

When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead

And the white knight is talking backwards

And the red queen's off with her head

Remember what the dormouse said

Feed your head, feed your head...

And if nobody knows what I am talking about, well that just proves my point. :-)

Drew

10/23/2018 07:04:52 am

Wow BB, thanks for the encouragement! You just made my morning!

Rubislaw 32 link

10/24/2018 06:40:12 pm

Interesting what you say further,BB.

Watts was up for a place at Oxford University,and had to write them an essay,as his final admission requirement.

Well.they turned him down,on account that his essay showed him to be too free thinking and ''capricious'' [!].

As if he telegraphed them that ''You will take me as I am,or not at all.''

America must have seen so exciting to him,and he did become quite a prolific writer.

Indeed,''The End'' is not what a person's life should be judged on.Hemmingway only committed suicide,because he had a terminal illness.Same with Robin Williams [?].

Elvis was a ''complete bookworm''.These sort of sides,some rarely get to hear about.

Yes,its terrible when young women are murdered,and then their ''private sides'' are made public,indicating that,they may have been responsible for becoming vulnerable,to harm.

Serial killers are like pickpockets X 100.

Just cheap con men.

10/24/2018 08:05:16 pm

Richard - I have learned so much about myself through the study of this curious killer the Zodiac/thing. It is like a game.
Develop a great doubt - Genius!
This Alan Watts is a great teacher.
I wonder what he would say about this
Zodiac/thing?

Alan Watts How To Stop Being Self Conscious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOED4FIDlq4

"California Constipation"
The fool will laugh at me. Yet the wise will understand.
Genius laughs with you.
Funny - I get it! Do you Drew, Rubislaw, Judith, Richard?
I love you guys. I've learned so much from you.

She came, she saw, she wrote

10/24/2018 09:05:39 pm

Alan Watts was a truly bright spark!

:))

Nobody

10/25/2018 04:00:50 am

Jean-Paul Sartre was another philosopher who was very popular among the Beatniks and influenced some elements of the counter-culture.

Nobody

10/22/2018 07:42:57 pm

Serial killers do sometimes think of themselves as artists and poets, which is of course crazy as bat shite and makes them more than a bit scary. Moreover for others to believe they have reached an understanding of exactly what these killers were thinking is perhaps even scarier.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/22/2018 07:53:48 pm

I like the ''broken clock'' analogy.

We must be right,some of the time [?].

Yes,I think Mr.Brooks was wasting his time,attempting to demonstrate,what Zodiac actually meant,by that doodle.

There were many right answers....or,there was no right answer.

Zodiac simply appealed to our curiosity,and rewarded us with frustration [!].

Z = 1,WE = 0

Humpty Dumpty :

''When I use a word,it means just what I choose it to mean.''

Alice :

''The question is whether you can make words mean so many different things.''

I think that we can safely say,that Zodiac was not an advocate of Humpty Dumpty [?].

10/22/2018 08:16:42 pm

A further comment on Drew's 5:35:28pm posting

Everything you said was gold plated perfect right on the money!

Nobody

10/22/2018 09:53:12 pm

I agree BB. He was right on target there about everything. Hear, hear!

Drew

10/23/2018 07:52:32 am

I am blushing Blue Belly!

Tom1

10/23/2018 03:56:02 pm

All crimes and events share the same type of "coincidences".

Rubislaw 32 link

10/23/2018 04:17:23 pm

Indeed Tom1,particularly the long standing cold cases,that all,bar none,carry a history of monumental mess ups,which often can't be accounted for,when assessing average,reasonable thinking people,that were tasked with carrying out investigations,for which,we presume,they were professionally,trained for.

Am I being too unkind to Law Enforcement ?

Nobody

10/23/2018 04:37:56 pm

Yes but the point is, the longer cases go on and the more popular they are, the more the "coincidences" tend to grow. They can end up dominating some people's time and research sometimes even to the point of excluding the known facts or formulating preposterous theories that fly in the face of reason. Gremlins always multiply if you feed them at the wrong time or get them wet. :)

Rubislaw 32 link

10/23/2018 04:39:50 am

In some ways,I see so much about the Exorcists doodle,now,as in the ''18 character anagram''.

Provided Zodiac was ''concerned citizen'' [...which is little in doubt...].

''concerned citizen'',in leaving three of his eight deployed polyphonic symbols,in the last line of the 408 cipher,in effect,left us with eight ''slightly different'' sets of anagrams,to choose from,if we desired to come close to a solution.

''concerned citizen'' telegraphed that there could be many solutions,or that there could be none.

I think that ''riddlers'' like Zodiac,can only get away with this,a limited number of times,before no longer holding other's attentions.

The Exorcist doodle appears to have been a return to the ''no actual solution'',as employed in the 408 ''second puzzle''.

At a later date,if Zodiac is arrested,and questioned,he can quite easily come up with a solution,in both the doodle and anagram.

Thereby,making fools of us,once again.

Provided he is the focus of attention,then ''he wins''.

Judith

10/23/2018 07:12:19 am

Just because someone licked an envelope flap or a stamp does not make them the Killer. Zodiac could have easily asked someone to please lick the envelope or a stamp for him. it very well could have been a daunting female. this does not mean the licker wrote the letter or killed people. so you begin to see the problems and issues for law enforcement to definitively name this killer. There may be many various profiles at this point in time. Some of them probably belong to law enforcement staff.

Tom1

10/23/2018 03:58:09 pm

But it would provide a direct link to the letter writer.

Nobody

10/23/2018 04:00:35 pm

Agreed Judith! I am not sure if you ever watch Dr. Who? An episode called world War Three from a decade or so back had the doctor parroting the phrase "Narrows it down!" The sum weight of the DNA together with the available evidence, should, with enough time and effort and a LONG process of exclusion, eventually "narrow it down". So even if the DNA proves to be a family member or close relative, the house maid or secretary, that will help to "narrow it down".

Rubislaw 32 link

10/23/2018 07:58:25 am

Very true,Judith.

But it's this business,in getting too hung up,over specific examples...of aspects to correspondence,more particularly.

We tend to concern ourselves,that those examining the potential forensics sources,are going to conclude that Zodiac was ''the postman'',or even their own boss.

The point,I try to emphasise is,that Zodiac being the compulsive writer,that he undoubtedly was,as well as ''outdoor pursuits'' to consider......then its the ''sheer weight'' of forensics sources,that in perception alone,appear,to be available,to those tasked with the examining.

And,of course,the ever evolving advancements in technological forensics detection,allow even greater opportunities,to put together ''permutation scenarios'',that should easily ''isolate'' and identify,the real culprit.

Nobody

10/23/2018 04:17:07 pm

"The point,I try to emphasise is,that Zodiac being the compulsive writer,that he undoubtedly was,as well as ''outdoor pursuits'' to consider...."

It is of course possible that he wrote about outdoor pursuits as a result of sheer fantasizing rather than any factual recounting of his own real-life experiences. He may have been a complete nerd who read lots of books about heroic Western characters, war heroes, and pirate/sailor yarns, and other books and films about hardy, resilient, self-made "men of the wilderness" types.

His curiosity may have led him to investigate things from those books in more detail, like map and compass reading, basic cryptography and survivalist literature. One of the books he read may have concerned radians for example.

This absorptive personality type could also go a long way towards explaining why he seemed so obsessed by various eclectic things in popular culture, like opera and pop music and films. Then of course there may have been comic books and silly popular TV shows like Batman that he may have watched, news reports in papers, and it all kind of got muddled together like a big soggy pudding that later occasionally leaked from his rather cracked brain.

Drew

10/24/2018 09:19:15 am

Good post!

Judith

10/23/2018 11:02:15 am

It's like when I informed VPD years ago, who had Peter Plante's weapons. "How could we prove who shot them all those years ago?"

Nobody

10/23/2018 04:24:08 pm

Oh my, what a terribly blasé and dismissive attitude Judith. It would have left you feeling very deflated - a real "Why did I bother?" feeling.

Did they ever log the items and retain them? It is a quite simple process to match up a bullet to a gun. And so damned what if someone else had fired the guns! If you say they had been in Peter's possession, then that should be counted as evidence. Plain and simple!

Oh wow... just wow. If what you say is true I am completely and utterly gobsmacked.

Nobody

10/23/2018 04:32:40 pm

Ah! Just re-read your comment Judith and I may have been mis-reading it. Do you mean VPD had Peter Plante's weapons already or were you telling the police that somebody else had Peter's weapons? I am just not perfectly clear on that, but I think you must mean the latter. :)

Either way, my previous comment should still be "on the money"?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/23/2018 11:32:24 am

Yes,pretty weak stuff,on intent,from the cops,Judith.

If they had intentions to get to the bottom of it,the cops would have gone on ''trail back'' investigation,exerting pressure,on each ''guardian'' of Peter's weapons,until they found the first person that took guardianship of those weapons,after Peter.

On the subject of the VPD,it is they also,through that [erroneous] press release,that have also spread this ridiculous notion,that ''we'' are down to our last chance saloon,in order to find a Zodiac DNA profile.

And,in effect,a dependence on the existence of two envelopes,whose existence had been uncovered by them....just at the point when everyone thought that all was lost,for available forensics sources.

It is such extraordinary ''fiction'' [!].

The VPD just caught most folk's attention,when it was otherwise diverted with the GSK case,and potential genealogy chances pointing in the Zodiac case's direction.

This will become apparent in time,but if the case of the Zodiac has a more definite chance of resolution,by that future time....then the ''nonsense'' claimed by the VPD,by inference,will be largely forgotten.

If something needs to be stated,more and more,then it is that we don't want genealogical investigations to take place,in the Zodiac case,as took place in the GSK case.

This,because there exists legal uncertainty over those particular means,for a judicial prosecution to take place.

10/23/2018 11:41:59 am

Richard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olmLCZLL9UI

Unsolved Serial Killer Jack the Stripper Documentary

Even though they (LE) found-out who he (Jack) was they will never tell.

Could this be the case with the Zodiac?

Nobody

10/23/2018 07:27:50 pm

The fact that the Zodiac posted a piece of Stine's shirt with the letter of October 13th 1969, suggests that even at this early time he may have been getting concerned about copycats. Perhaps there had already been an instance of a hoax communication, or perhaps he was just checking all bases in order to maintain his sense of control over his own "media profile"? There was also possibly a growing speculation in the media and general public that all of the letters were just hoaxes invented by someone who had simply been following the news stories closely. If the Zodiac wanted to put all such suspicions to bed, the piece of shirt certainly provided an abrupt solution to his problematic scenario. It was like a big slap in the face to any of his doubters. He wanted them to know that it was him and nobody else.

But when we get to some of these later communications, which are short and vague which lend themselves to a multiplicity of semantic interpretations, they really do seem too vague for anybody to know for certain if they were real Zodiac communications. Some things are "in common", but in a vague or obscure way. Other things are not. The handwriting appears to be very forced and therefore not the writer's natural style. The subject matter and tone are obscure and almost "effeminate". The communications are so small that anybody would be clutching at straws to find positive relevance that they relate to any communications that came before.

My own feeling is that some of these later letters were from hoaxers, while others were written by people who did not even have the Zodiac in mind. The handwriting and witty yet eccentric use of humor is purely coincidental. So the fact that somebody in LE tried to connect them to the killer was little more than a huge leap of faith on their part. They could have been completely wrong.

Hopefully DNA,l if nothing else, can help to separate some of the non-Zodiac communications from the real ones. Some of us may be very surprised when we learn the truth.

Drew

10/23/2018 08:23:12 pm

Very interesting thoughts. I think it is a definite indication of something that at first Zodiac is very concerned about proving that he is the killer. His immediate morning of Aug 4 response to the Aug 3 request for him to supply more evidence of his involvement shows this as does the first Stine letter two days after the event. That shirt piece came a very high risk for him. He exhibited the same attitude when he performed the Lake Berryessa attack taking the time to write on the car. Even the call to the police shows a willingness to take unnecessary chances to secure the fame portion of his deeds.

The copycatters would have begun after the media attention in mid October of 69 when the school bus threat was revealed. Less than a week after we get Zodiac imposters. I think the first one might have been the Martinez soda poisoner. I guy calling himself Zodiac repeatedly tormented a school teacher for 10 days and then broke into his house and poured arsenic in his coke bottle. The poisoned guy lived. A couple of days after that Sam, a young unstable guy claims to be Zodiac and calls in to the Dunbar show, introducing Melvin Belli into the story. I believe also in late October some nutjob calls himself Zodiac and threatens his own family holding his daughter at gunpoint until the police finally put him down. Awful stuff. Some of us who live on Richard's site here have some degree of faith that the December 'Bleeding Knife of Zodiac' Fairfield letters could be real but most researchers tend to regard them as fake. Apart from their rather shabby appearance the fact that Zodiac mailed a piece of the shirt twice in a row before the Fairfield letters came without, then four days later he mails Belli a letter with the shirt.

Though we will likely never obtain more proof than somebody's worl there apparently were a lot of copycat letters. Jack the Ripper had this affect on the public as well but personally I find that hard to accept. I wonder how many fake letters came in without fingerprints.

Regarding Zodiac's actual concern about copycats though I am not sure if he liked it or not. I believe Zodiac composed the Pace card but some do not. If he didn't write it though then he did adopt the phrase 'crackproof' from it. Assuming the crazy young caller Sam wasn't the Zodiac, why did the real Zodiac send the letter and shirt piece to Belli? Was it to mock young Sam and anyone who believed he was the real killer by pretending to plead for help. 'Help me I'm drownding' is the phrasing I recall. I think he liked to take credit for crimes other people did more than letting others share in his fame but that it was possibly all in service of his terror goal. He said it all in the letter about making his crimes look like accidents and rage killings.

Drew

10/23/2018 08:28:11 pm

Ultimately after the Stine killing, other than the two subsequent letters containing shirt pieces, he stopped attempting to prove his involvement in anything. He had already garnered everyone's attention and proved what he was capable of. After that he could just keep sending letters. When they refused to print his bomb threats he just sent more letters until they did.

Nobody

10/24/2018 12:37:23 am

Yes Drew, he did not seem overly bothered by copycats. At least he never complained about them. Perhaps he was happy to bask in all the blood-soaked mayhem that surrounded him because it was all happening in his name, thus satisfying his ego and agenda of fear on some level?

Judith

10/23/2018 08:44:36 pm

Peter's guns were all confiscated by the Pinole Police Department in 1999 after he was picked up in a parking lot of a bar having been beaten up. When they took him to the hospital they discovered two loaded handguns in his waistband. There would then be a raid on his home and all of the known weapons were confiscated. These guns were never released back to Peter. Instead the executor of his estate, who was the same guy he lived with during the classic Zodiac killings, came and signed for them and picked them up. In as much as his deep fondness for my husband I highly doubt he disposed of these weapons. Many years ago I let VPD know I was concerned that Peter might be the Zodiac and where the guns were. However, if you read police reports from Lake Herman Road, if I am not mistaken,they would be unable to determine the weapon used as it appeared The Gun Barrel had been prepared in some fashion to mitigate ballistics. I can't remember with regards to Blue Rock Springs or with regards to San Francisco.
I cannot tell you how many phone calls I've made, letters I've written emails I've sent, for god sakes I wrote a freaking book about it.
I guess we must start to think like the cops do. How would you prove that this evidence belongs to a certain person without a doubt? many of these solved DNA cases now involve some idiot leaving his semen behind.Hard to deny it was them.
With zodiac I would think they would need several pieces of evidence that tied several different crimes together and then it may end up being an enigma. he will get away with it, he did get away with it. He is smarter than law enforcement.

Nobody

10/24/2018 12:47:17 am

Oh dear, I wonder if that means he was using sabots? Unless he picked them up, wouldn't these have been found at crime scenes? I could be wrong but I cannot recall hearing about any such devices being left at the crime scenes. Otherwise I am at a loss to understand how a gun barrel can be altered to mitigate ballistic forensics, unless he was constantly re-lapping or honing the barrels? Even then I would have thought there should be slight traces that could match the projectile to the gun.

OCINAZ

10/25/2018 10:05:41 pm

I have never read about them finding abbots at any of the crime scenes in the police reports. If he couldn't be bothered to pick up the brass I doubt he would go looking for small plastic pieces at night. Altering the grooves in a barrel generally messes with any type of accuracy so I really doubt this was done. The requirement of registration of guns in California is meaningless & probably 1/2 the people I knew growing up there had unregistered weapons.

10/25/2018 01:05:11 pm

Judith

I am curious if you remember seeing any of these paper targets

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/sears-roebuck-co-paper-targets#comments

Judith

10/25/2018 08:14:10 pm

I don't remember seeing those paper targets in particular. When I married Peter we would go up to Lake Shasta every summer. He would take me out into the woods and we would practice shooting at things like paper plates with circles drawn on them. He would place the targets, load the weapon, hand them to me and instruct me on shooting. I am a very good aim. By the time I married Peter he had been going to Lake Shasta for 25 years. As a teenager he would stay with the people that owned the lodge and take grown men on Hunting Expeditions throughout the woods. The day I married him he packed loaded weapons into the suitcase that we were taking on our honeymoon to Shasta. We never travelled anywhere without loaded weapons ready to go, even with my little babies in the car. The last four days of our 20-year marriage he terrorized me with guns, held guns on my head and in front of the children. On the last night he called me out into the woods with the .22 rifle with a pen light taped to the barrel in the dark.
Pointed it up to the trees and showed me the dark circle within within the circle of of light.
He always kept boxes of The Coppertop and Western type of ammunition. Sometimes he would sit at the coffee table with a knife and cut criss-crosses in the tips of the bullets.

Judith

10/25/2018 08:20:31 pm

I wonder if Riverside has submitted any of the DNA profiles of the evidence found at the murder scene of Cheri Jo Bates into the GED match system. Riverside PD was not very forthcoming when the History Channel did their little show recently. I do know the FBI pulled some kind of DNA profile from a cigarette butt and from a wrist watch there is also the hair that was found on Cheri Jo's thumb and her clothing perchance other evidence collected at the scene. I wonder if the local Riverside media could be of any help in answering this question.

Judith

10/26/2018 07:08:24 am

Yuck.Paper plate targets with the zodiac symbol drawn on them.

To me the zodiac symbol is a rifle site.

Nobody

10/26/2018 03:57:20 pm

Yes Judith, what is that they say about the most obvious explanations? Generally they are correct. Seems unlikely to me that the Zodiac would be painting himself as a target. It seems much more likely he wanted to be seen as the person hiding behind the gun site.

Some of the less likely explanations that have been presented over the years by various people include: an ancient Celtic cross symbol, Aryan Brotherhood symbol, any number of similar looking ancient runes/hieroglyphs/petroglyphs, a stylized compass, a stylized watch/clock face, a Masonic symbol, a hobo's symbol, a roadworker's symbol, an electrical/circuitry symbol, a mathematical symbol, the list just goes on and on.

10/26/2018 05:57:00 pm

Karl Francis Werner (born 1950) is an American serial killer active in Santa Clara County in Northern California. He was convicted of the murder of three teenage girls during his period of activity from 1969-1971.

Dave Toschi thought at one time Karl could be Zodiac.
He was big into physics and math.
Why can't I find an exact DOB on Karl?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 01:44:52 am

Seems a mystery,BB.I see that he is still alive.

Exclusively,a ''stabber'' [?].

It seems to be looking likely,that Joseph Newton Chandler III ''re-invented '' himself,to avoid child support.

Not so much sympathy,then [?].

10/30/2018 09:23:41 am

Riverside does not care that a ''stabber'' killed Cheri Jo Bates 52 years ago today - if they cared - wouldn't they at least say something.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/30/2018 04:22:55 pm

It's an interesting point,BB.

Although any answer might be considered,speculative,I have been keeping an eye on developments,Law Enforcement wise,on all cases,officially and unofficially linked to the Zodiac case,over the last 3-4 years.

''Something'' is definitely being co-ordinated,if not necessarily by the CA DOJ,then through it,to the California police forces,in the field.More than probably,the US DOJ,since there are possible cases,outside the State of California,with probable links to the case.

With the Riverside Police,I would suggest it is likely that the Zodiac was the extortionist,and therefore responsible for the linked correspondences,in the Cheri Jo Bates case.

So,its very possible that the Riverside Police,are under orders,from the CA DOJ,to ''wait'',or at least not show themselves too highly,until the Zodiac case,is sorted.

I am convinced that ''LE'' already know the Zodiac's identity.His public ''outing'',hopefully in the form of arrest and prosecution....will be the priority.Everything else,will ''fall in'' behind,thereafter.

It would not surprise me,for example,to see the identity of the perpetrator of Cheri Jo revealed,shortly after dealing with the ''Zodiac priority''.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/30/2018 04:44:44 pm

There are,perhaps,two inferences that can be made,from my comments,above.

Firstly,that the authorities have expectations that,the Zodiac will plead guilty on a charge of extortion,in the Bates case.

And,secondly,that it is likely that the perpetrator of Cheri Jo,is now deceased.

10/30/2018 06:17:55 pm

Rubislaw 32

Interesting. I don't how you get the info that you get. It is probably not something you want to talk much about. Your source/method. You don't have to say. It is just curious. Were you ever with LE. in some capacity?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/30/2018 06:49:49 pm

Yes,BB,I do have to be careful what I do say.

No,I have never worked for the police,nor the judiciary.

But,I have kept a ''regular'' relationship,with the police,for the last 9 years,and with the judiciary,through the police,for the last 4 years.

This goes back to a particular murder case,where the Zodiac is suspected,though yet officially acknowledged to be,the perpetrator.

In 2010,I was interviewed,with regard to information about this murder.Then,interviewed as a suspect,in the case,since,it appears that the police were unable to understand how I had come by the information.

I received a formal caution,for a ''legal infringement'',and voluntarily gave a DNA sample.

I did not complain,although I could have,But,this served me well,in their eyes,subsequently.

For,there is no doubt that,if you approach the cops,with what amounts to ''nothing''.....then,they will squash you like a fly,for wasting their time.

10/30/2018 07:07:37 pm

Rubislaw 32 - The news of the day - The Serial killer protected by the FBI - James "Whitey" Bulger, the notorious and much-feared former mob boss, was killed today at the US Penitentiary Hazelton in Bruceton Mills, West Virginia. He was convicted of 31 counts, including racketeering, extortion, money laundering, drug dealing and weapons possession. The jury found him culpable in 11 killings from 1973 through 1985.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/30/2018 07:54:36 pm

Interesting,BB.

The big news in Britain,today,concerns the disappearance of Estate Agent,Suzy Lamplugh,who went missing in 1986,after keeping an appointment,to show a prospective client around a property.

Scotland Yard,took the unprecedented step of naming,serial rapist and killer,John Canaan,in 2002,as their prime suspect.Canaan remains in prison,serving a minimum of 35 years,and denies responsibility for Suzy's disappearance.

But to-day,police moved in on Canaan's late mother's house,and are currently,digging up a patio,in the back yard.

THE DEMON SLAYER

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