ZODIAC CIPHERS
Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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THE CARDINAL POINTS OF ZODIAC

10/4/2020

 
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It is fairly obvious by now that the Zodiac Killer didn't just pluck Mount Diablo out of a hat for the starting point of his Mount Diablo code in the Button letter on June 26th 1970. He knew the history of Mount Diablo and knew that the peak of Mount Diablo was used for the purpose of land boundaries in the majority of Northern California and Nevada, with the summit used as the "initial point", the north/south meridian and east/west baseline intersection point. However, because of the vastness of California, surveying required three "initial points" of Mount Diablo, Mount Pierce and the San Bernardino Mountain to form grid lines.

The Zodiac Killer knew the prominence of Mount Diablo from an elevation standpoint, but very likely knew some of the history and purpose of Mount Diablo - and why he chose this mountain as his "initial point" for the code of radians and inches to be measured from.

It is true that only a tiny proportion of a population would understand what a radian is, but the conclusion drawn from the Zodiac Killer's use of radians as an angular measurement, that he must have been familiar with them through his profession or hobby, is not necessarily the case. He could easily have read a book, magazine, or newspaper article in the preceding hours, days, weeks or months to mailing the Button letter. While most people will not be knowledgeable to the concept of radians, it takes very little time to familiarize oneself with them. Therefore, the idea of radians being a requirement to his daily life through his work (past or present) is not necessarily the case. It may have been a topic he had recently read and so decided to utilize the measurement of radians in his Mount Diablo code. Despite highlighting this point, it is clear that the Zodiac Killer through his communications with the newspapers, did exhibit good "mental mapping" skills in relation to the environment around him. His compass skills were correct in all instances, whether by use of a map or through an extensive knowledge of the locations he murdered in. 

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The Zodiac Killer stated correctly that "the girl was on her right side feet to the west" regarding the murder of Betty Lou Jensen at Lake Herman Road. He was correct in his payphone directions after the attack at Blue Rock Springs, stating "If you will go one mile east...... On Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find the kids in a brown car". The Zodiac Killer was aware of the Volkswagen Karmann Ghia at Lake Berryessa being north of Park Headquarters. He showed his "cardinal points" awareness  in the November 9th 1969 'Bus Bomb' letter, describing his exit through the park of "The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west". All this, along with the use of radians in the Mount Diablo map pinpointing Ingleside Police Station and the Southern Freeway as his supposed bomb target, should give you pause for thought when the Zodiac Killer identified "Washington St and Maple St" as the location of the Paul Stine murder.   

When you factor in the cryptic directions given in the Pines and Monticello cards, it becomes increasingly likely that the Zodiac Killer had a keen interest in maps, the surroundings in which he lived and worked, along with the hunting grounds he chose for murder. It may suggest that he methodically planned out these attacks well in advance, so as to facilitate the best possible chance of escape. Taking this all into consideration, it now becomes a much more reasonable argument to suggest that the Zodiac Killer may have had prior and extensive knowledge of radians, rather than just a passing whim prior to his mailing of the Button letter on June 26th 1970.

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Shawn link
10/4/2020 01:28:41 pm

It seems Zodiac was into maps as the Phillips map he sent was a road map.

I have measured angles off google earth vs the road map and got different angles. Maybe because google earth is a true 3 dimensional view of earth and the road map is 2 dimensional and is not designed to be as accurate.

The USGS put out periodic comprehensive maps in the late 1960’s of the Bay Area that zodiac might have referenced for his planning of attacks along with road maps.

Roger
10/4/2020 02:57:29 pm

I think you are correct Richard. People are funny the way they try to find perfect angles and precise distances off crude road maps. If the Zodiac was intending anything, even he knew that he could only give a very general bearing off such a crude map. Basically he just wanted the radian angle to point vaguely towards San Francisco. No frills and not rocket science. That is the simplest answer and the only one I can accept to be generally true. Anything more detailed will always get people into trouble. We can see an extreme example of this detailed analysis in Gareth Penn's over-the-top theory.

Richard
10/4/2020 03:28:53 pm

My guess is that something triggered Zodiac into creating the Mt. Diablo code. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the Chronicle or Examiner ran an article about Mount Diablo in the 2-3 weeks preceding the Button letter. But I still haven't got newspapers.com yet, so I will just have to speculate a little more.

Richard
10/4/2020 03:30:09 pm

Or the 2-3 weeks before April 20th 1970.

Roger
10/4/2020 04:07:16 pm

Worth looking into Richard. Or was it simply because it was the highest point around that overlooked the Bay area? It is the tallest mountain by well over a thousand feet. So perhaps nothing more than a representation of his inflated ego? "I am smarter than the police", who are shown along the radian line as "SFPD", way down below in the bottom of the Bay.

Roger
10/4/2020 04:20:03 pm

Sadly my subscription to newspapers.com ran out all too soon, and be warned, they don't let you know your free trial has expired until they snatch the first installment from your credit card. Then you have to wait before being reimbursed if you cancel! My advice, use a prepaid card which has limited credit.

Roger
10/4/2020 04:14:54 pm

And perhaps he considered himself the "Diabolical One", looking down at them from his lofty perch in Paradise (where zero is north, i.e. Ground Zero)? It conjures up ideas of a bird of prey which has the entire Bay region in its sights. Certainly worth checking for news articles about Mt. Diablo, the use of compasses and radian lines from around that time. There may have been an article that he had latched on to.

Mo
10/5/2020 04:59:38 am

This is also consistent with military personnel, many who study map reading, geo-reconnaissance and, of course, code writing.

Throw in the military boot-prints, and you're likely looking at a person with a military background, who may have had connections to Mare Island Naval Shipyard, the Presidio and/or Travis Airbase.

Richard
10/5/2020 05:38:17 am

Also, throw in the alleged pencil flashlight used for sighting/

Judith
10/5/2020 09:15:38 am

It shows that Zodiac was an intelligent man.
My suspect spoke in these terms, and would point out that the peak of Mount Shasta was used as the base for the construction of I 5 which runs up and down the West Coast. Who knows this kind of stuff?
I 5 is a super freeway with increased speeds allowed. It was a pretty big deal when it was built replacing the old hiway 99.
The movie Psycho by Hitchcock was based on a once successful Hotel on 99 now defunct due to the new Interstate 5.
Our little girl told me after his death, "He would dump the bodies in those big round things off the freeway."



Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 10:26:26 am

I believe that you are not so far away , Judith , on the Zodiacs little games , with his ( ? ) simple numerical code , in the second Fairfield letter of December 16th 1969 (...you will not catch me...) :

'' 3168938 ''

With simple alphabetic positional substitution :

'' C A F H I C H ''

CAFHICH = California Highway Choppers
CAFHICH = Cafe Hitchhikers
CAFHICH = California Hitchcock

The duplicitous Zodiac even gives a nod to '' Psycho '' .

Roger
10/5/2020 03:26:34 pm

I always love the obscure, dramatic, "hanging footnote" that leaves everyone gasping, guessing, and dangling.

Obvious next question: What were the "big round things"?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 03:38:02 pm

Does anyone know the derivation of B J Uchi ?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 04:05:05 pm

B J Utchi ?

Richard
10/5/2020 04:16:13 pm

Who?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 04:21:56 pm

Thanks anyway , Richard - it's of no consequence Zodiac-related .

Richard link
10/5/2020 04:14:25 pm

Here's a link to Shawn's latest Halloween video. I have done this because he belatedly remembered my birthday, which quite frankly I was trying to forget.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 05:03:12 pm

Another video of interest from Shawn .

Captain Don Townsend :

'' ...this guy is a pathological psycho-killer .''

D B Cooper , December 11th 1971 :

''....neither am I a psycho-pathic killer . ''

Shawn link
10/7/2020 08:05:56 pm

"Psycho" opened at the RKO Golden Gate movie theater on August 10, 1960

Click my name for poster

Rubislaw 32 link
10/5/2020 07:43:42 pm

The '' Sea Wolf '' is the name of a Zodiac wristwatch and submarine .

There have been 4 USS Seawolf 's in the service of the U.S.Navy , between 1913 and the present day .

And , one HMS Seawolf in the service of the Royal Navy ( 1936 ) .

The Sea Wolf , a novel by Jack London , told the story of two boats that collide in San Francisco Bay . It was made into a Hollywood film , in 1941 , starring Edward G.Robinson as Captain Wolf Larsen .

Judith
10/5/2020 10:14:00 pm

So the big round things are the metal drains that run under the exits and entrants to the freeways

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 03:03:05 am

There's a final scene in '' Dirty Harry '' where police retrieve a young woman's naked body from a '' big round thing '' that resembles a large chimney pot poking out of the ground ( ...on high ground , overlooking the Golden Gate...) .

Does anyone know what '' those '' are ?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 04:13:39 am

A few '' Reds '' :

The Red Cardinal , or Northern Cardinal , is a small bird indigenous to North America .

Highway 99 runs from Wheeler Ridge in the south of California , to Red Bluff in the north , 31 miles south of Redding .

It runs through Bakersfield , close to where the fictional motel of Norman Bates existed , in the Hitchcock film : '' Psycho '' .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 05:31:12 am

The quirky compass ?

N , S , E and W , are an anagram of '' News '' , for which the Zodiac referred in the Dripping Pen card .

A mirror image of the compass points S , E , W , are recognisable as
2 / Z , 3 , W , but '' N '' simply remains as the mirror image of '' N '' . Refer to KNIFE on the back of the Zodiac's Halloween card to Paul Avery .

The clock compass points 0 , 3 , 6 , 9 , appear as O , E , d , p , in mirror image form , and as O , 3 , g , b , upside-down .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 05:50:01 am

Channel 9 letter , May 2nd 1978 , ends with '' See you in the news '' .

Readers might become his victim , wherever he might find them ( ? ) .

Then , those victims might become the news .

Judith
10/6/2020 08:23:18 am

Good morning from California gentleman one of Peter's favorite songs was Psycho Killer By The Talking Heads

Richard link
10/6/2020 08:42:18 am

Good morning Judith, you won't believe me, but my favourite song of all time is "I Don't Like Mondays" by the Boomtown Rats. This was #1 hit in 32 different countries, including the UK, but it flopped in America, probably because the subject matter hit too close to home.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 10:24:44 am

Interesting about '' I don't like Mondays '' , and was so often the case , the British press put these sort of cultural anomalies down to being '' Too British '' , as if it was the Americans' own fault for not buying into a considered full range of the cultural spectrum .

The American market never did buy into the whole genre of '' Glitter Rock '' either , and missed out on the first coming of David Bowie , as a result .

But I do see now that subsequent multi-convicted paedophile , Paul Gadd , a.k.a. Gary Glitter , did register a top-ten hit in the U.S.A. , with '' Rock and Roll Part 2 '' , before his popularity fell away quite quickly .

On release from prison , in the U.K. , Gary Glitter exiled himself in the Far East , but came to grief in a number of countries , including Vietnam , where he was accused of raping a 13 year-old girl , Had Glitter not made payments to the girl's family , he could have faced the firing squad .

Have any viewers here , from the U.S.A heard about Rolf Harris ? Now , there's a tale to be told and , puts a completely new spin on one of his greatest hit songs , '' Two little boys '' .

Richard
10/6/2020 11:48:16 am

I believe its failure in the US 100, was mainly down to the fact that it came too soon after the Brenda Spencer attack. It was considered "in bad taste". Most radio stations blacklisted the song, especially in California.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 12:31:02 pm

In a similar vein , perhaps , '' Gary Gilmore's eyes '' was a UK hit for The Adverts , just over a year following Gilmore's '' demanded '' execution for two murders committed in Utah .

Gilmore left his eyes to science , believing them to be the only useful part of him that he possessed . And , the song tells a story of someone who received them , in a transplant operation .

One might understand the American market not wholly convinced of the song's artistic merits .

Judith
10/6/2020 10:17:18 am

Yes I love I don't like Mondays too

So here is your visual
He played drums and had a full kit in the house
And he would turn up the music really loud
And he would get really drunk
and then psycho drum to the songs

Rubislaw 32 link
10/6/2020 03:35:36 pm

So Judith , what do you have on Peter's ( Zodiac's ? ) record collection ? Was it extensive ( ? ) , or was he more on single songs , and someone more inclined to listen to the radio ? At the time of the Bay area terror .

These are some albums that I have found :

Are You Experienced ? - The Jimi Hendrix Experience
Procol Harum - Procol Harum
Sgt.Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - The Beatles
Aretha : Lady Soul - Aretha Franklin
Jefferson Airplane Takes Off - Jefferson Airplane
All I Really Wanna Do - Cher
The Byrds ( Untitled ) - The Byrds
Parsley,Sage,Rosemary and Thyme - Simon and Garfunkel
Harmony - Three Dog Night
Sounds of Silence - Simon and Garfunkel
The Best of Eric Burdon and the Animals - Volume II

I also have a compass ; a key ring ( King of Spades ) , and a brass desk ruler ( Drilling Controls )

You must have plenty of curiosity ( ? ) items , in your possession , belonging to Peter ?

What of handwriting exemplars ? I have a fair collection of quite mixed styles by the one and only person .

Shawn link
10/6/2020 11:27:40 am

Watch all of my videos for close to 20 minutes of hard hitting, seat of the pants breaking Zodiac news....over 50 years in the making.

Age is just a number but clicking my name will deliver you to my videos.

Richard
10/6/2020 11:52:38 am

In Youtube "Shawn Space" no one can hear you scream. "I feel it in my bones, you ache to click my name, so I can clue you in."

Shawn link
10/7/2020 08:49:23 am

Click my name, I changed the Channel layout. It is in the works.

The Pace is not slowing, in fact it's one big fourth next.....


BB
10/7/2020 04:02:14 pm

Shawn - Excellent

Zodiac Killer Halloween Card - October is the big time for the Zodiac.

Looking forward to more from you - You are on a Golden trail.

Judith
10/6/2020 10:46:11 pm

Record albums he was almost religious about it. He would more or less play as the DJ at any of our parties. Generally really good and intelligent music Electric Blues and rock and roll. First and foremost would be Led Zeppelin. And like a fool I threw out all of his albums about 20 years ago and even worse a box full of model airplanes he made. Pretty tired now for going to bed but I will give you a list of the important music tomorrow there are also very important films.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 03:59:00 am

Thanks Judith , and the films would be of interest .

I have thought about the codes and the submarines , as seemingly the eccentric interests of the Zodiac . But , it's really just about '' under cover '' - the covert world of comfort for the psychologically flawed and damaged individuals , such as the Zodiac .

I can never see the phenomenon of the Zodiac , being more than one person , unless a close partnership , like husband and wife .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 04:37:54 am

Yellow Taxis and yellow school buses . The colour associated with '' municipality '' - the inclusiveness of '' all '' .

So , what could be less strange , than a '' Yellow Submarine '' ( ? ) . In an underground world that exists , naturally .

But still fantasy .

The cops will always be '' blue meanies '' - fantasy or reality .

Them and us - them , the '' party poopers '' .

In ironic terms , of course .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 05:00:59 am

'' Please heed this warning ! I am a Christian now , but I have underworld connections . ''

Billy Graham FBI File 2 , page 19 .

More '' Poseidon '' , than '' A Capone '' ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 05:59:16 am

Just thought that I would mention , Richard , that Joan Webster's ashes were interned , July 1990 , and two months before the Celebrity Cipher . Sadly , sister Anne felt unable to attend , but it seems to have been a family burial ceremony , of a sort .

This is , in view of examining the potential for the Zodiac to be at least a hoaxing extorter , in the case of Joan Webster ,

'' S C '' = Concerned Citizen = The Zodiac .

I still don't know when the divorce of Don and Bettye Harden was publicly announced . But , Joan's internment date brings us closer to the possibility that news of her might have precipitated a response from the Zodiac . The end of a '' chapter '' , perhaps . With the Zodiac turning his attention , elsewhere .

This is what compulsive hoaxers seem to do - they '' switch '' their attention , when they realise that they really aren't wanted , and may endanger their cover . But , always leave it open , to the possibility of returning , again .

More than ironic that the Zodiac internet fraternity is forever having to deal with one , in particular ( ? ) .

Just a shameless nutter , that cannot find the same satisfaction with another subject matter . Barely a consolation that law enforcement are fully aware , now .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 04:06:00 pm

Clint Eastwood , Mayor of Carmel April 1986 - April 1988 .

Repealed the prohibition of Ice Cream Cones , and banned camp fires on Carmel Beach . Criticised for attracting too many '' two-hour tourists '' , with altercations a regular feature in the limited car parking facilities .

He donated his $2,400 annual salary to a local youth community center .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 09:50:15 pm

Clint Eastwood's last political appointment was to the California Film Commission , in April 2004 , by then Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger .
Strangely enough , I was sharing the same hotel as Mr.Eastwood - The Hyatt , in Sacramento . In addition Danny Devito , who was appointed , the same day .

Two_Buck_Chuck
10/7/2020 09:21:30 am

Hi guys/gals,

I love discussions of good music from back in the day. I've always wondered the inspiration for the Talking Heads "Psycho Killer", considering they were New York art students in the mid 70's. Would they have heard of the Zodiac? I just did some research and found out they first sang the song in 1974 in a pre Talking Heads band call the "Artistic". This was pre Bundy and pre Son of Sam. Obviously there were other psychos out there, the Boston Strangler was an early 60's guy.

Back then a young person might take a gander at a local newspaper or catch a glimpse of the evening news but the news world was far more regional then. The only inspiration I can find is that David Byrne mentioned the Joker and Hannibal Lecter and that bad guys are always more interesting. It's just coincidence that it came out about when Son of Sam was doing his thing in New York.

Certainly Hitchcock's "Psycho" could figure somewhere in there.

I also liked "I Don't like Mondays" but found it disturbing. I remember a friend and I discussing what it was really about(Americans you know). It's hard to admit but I was 18 in 1976. Another great song that I found disconcerting was "Mirror in the Bathroom" by the English Beat.

Apparently about narcissism which seems a theme among serial killers.....Zodiac chief among them....


Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 02:08:51 pm

And very interesting from you , Two_Buck_Chuck .

Mirror in the Bathroom was part of the start of Ska music - new wave Skiffle , with the success of independent record labels , such as Two Tone . Psycho Killer was well received in Britain , particularly with the gay and art school fraternity - the birth of Avant Garde new wave . New Wave itself , really being Punk , without the nihilism . Punk wasn't destined to last , because it just wasn't attractive enough for longevity - to make its point , and then it was gone .

Starting as a toddler , loving the Everly Brothers , I was into such treasure as the Beach Boys' wilderness years , at that mid to late seventies time . Subliminal offerings , like Surf's Up and Holland .

Apparently , Psycho Killer was also influenced by Alice Cooper . Cooper strangely , finding his first real success , as part of the new British based '' Glitter Rock '' of the early seventies .

I always think that the best people to ask on opinions about western popular music , are the Dutch . They have extraordinary eclectic tastes in music , and can be the most discerning , and least prejudiced .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 02:47:35 pm

And , where was the Zodiac at this time ? We all have our opinions , and mine is that he rarely found himself on U.S. soil . Living out his pleasure to travel and see new horizons . But also , albeit part-time , to live out his first passion - motor racing . The business of his livelihood finding its expenses required through sponsorship , quite easy .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 04:18:20 pm

Albany letter , 1973 :

''...Albany Vehical Center This Only The Beginning .''

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 07:40:34 pm

'' Riders of the Storm '' by the Doors - another song about serial killers .

Two_Buck_Chuck
10/8/2020 06:26:06 am

Good stuff Rubislaw 32, I never got into the West Coast sound at that time but was definitely a punk rock/new waver...I saw the Talking Heads, Clash, Gang of Four, Pretenders and Ramones in my youth. Just a sample. Good times those.

I'm sure we've derailed the thread so I won't go any further down the music rabbit hole. I'll just say I doubt Zodiac was a Jimi Hendrix fan, he seemed more a show tunes type of guy..

One more thing, Alice Cooper seems like a good influence for "Psycho Killer" among others. Let's face it, no time period is without its share of sickos. I believe the particularly twisted serial killer Gerard Schaefer was arrested in Florida in 1973; however, I doubt that news spread up to New York. I better stop now before I derail further.

Anyway, a fascinating thread.....

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 07:16:52 am

Interesting bands , TBC .

I saw the original Stranglers who , were actually great musicians .

An interesting observation on Jimi Hendrix . He doesn't seem likely to have been up the Zodiac's alley . and yet the Zodiac uses the word '' Experience '' , and spells it , as :

'' Experence '' . As if possibly , to make the word more noticeable .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/7/2020 07:48:27 pm

Rumoured , at one time , that '' Green Manalishi with the two-pronged crown '' was about the Zodiac . Recorded in L.A. , at the time of his reign of terror , by Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac . But Green later denied this , and claimed it was about money in the music industry .
The '' Greenback '' - U.S. paper currency .

Shawn link
10/8/2020 01:57:25 am

Zodiac might have been a Beatles fan. Mentioning blue meannies from yellow submarine which I think was still at theaters. By the late 60's some of the Beatles music had a dark side which Zodiac might have admired.

Shawn
10/8/2020 02:23:38 am

Didn't Arthur Leigh Allen wear a "Z" ring.

Count Zaroff in the most dangerous game movie wore a "Z" ring.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 06:55:43 am

Undoubtedly , Shawn . But the tendency is that one has to buy into the Zodiac's unconfirmed correspondences , to see more evidence at play .

The San Jose Cryptogram asserts by implication , that the Zodiac was claiming to be '' The Walrus '' , in answer to the cipher challenge from Dr. Marsh : '' Man you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe .''

The May 2nd 1978 Channel 9 letter is a complete plethora of Beatles clues , and the Bomb Cipher uses clues from the recently released '' Let it be '' album , at that time .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 06:58:52 am

Interesting observation on Count Zaroff .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 08:38:43 am

In fact Shawn , you have just prompted me to notice another possible Arthur Leigh Allen clue . The Channel 9 letter takes at least three '' clews '' from Charlie Manson's Spahn Ranch door .

A '' Love '' logo from Love's classic Forever Changes album . With the concept of the band Love , being the mastermind of Arthur Lee .

BB
10/8/2020 08:39:57 am

Guys that were made to look like they could be the Zodiac.
By probable agents with an ax to grind?
Add to the list as you see fit.

1- William J Grant
2- Arthur Leigh Allen
3- Micheal O' Hare
4- Earl Van Best jr
5- Tony Tola
6- Richard Gaikowski
7- Ross M Sullivan

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 08:52:46 am

Good to see a few names , BB , on what must be surely called the '' blame game '' list .

I have ( IMO ) spotted ALA blamed three times , and Ted K twice ( Zodiac as Scorpion ) . But , far and away , the '' runaway winner '' is William J Grant .

Who is Richard Gaikowski ?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 09:08:10 am

Up to 4 now , on ALA . But Grant really does hit the 75% mark on Zodiac correspondences .

One just has to '' figgure '' out the reason why ( ? ) .

'' Then you shall have me - Good Luck .''

Judith
10/8/2020 08:56:43 am

So as I indicated earlier Peter was a huge music fan rock and roll played very loud on a good stereo system Led Zeppelin the Paul Butterfield Blues Band the Steve Miller Band The Who the theme music from Clockwork Orange there was a coveted album collection no Beatles no Stones no Doors although their music fits him very well. he had a stand-up piano which he plays psycho like and the drum set. he played drums in his high school marching band in the Rose Bowl Parade and in some local rock and roll groups, but as his schizophrenia got worse with time it would translate into his music.
Keep in mind that Peter lived in the Bay Area and there were huge cultural changes 1969 the year he turned 20 he went from being a square wannabe cop wannabe Soldier to someone touched by the love movement I'm sure it created a lot of confusion inside of his head having said that he made the scene in San Francisco he spoke with all of the happening musicians in person and partied with them he seems to have had a physical relationship with Grace Slick getting kicked out of her place in Bolinas after one party he intimated that he was with Maria Muldaur romantically he never admitted to anything with Janis Joplin but would get evasive. he spoke with the members of the Grateful Dead Elvin Bishop band you name it he made the scene in San Francisco he had conversations with the happening artists he sat at the picnic table with the young men from San Jose State that threw up the black power sign at the Olympics. Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 09:29:09 am

Fascinating to read and hear these things about the scene at the time .

I have a lot of respect for Grace Slick , but there do seem few men that didn't sleep with her .

The '' A Clockwork Orange '' soundtrack would certainly point towards Peter as a popular candidate for having written the Benicia High School Note - more than probably a mural , that claimed that the Zodiac was in partnership with William Grant .

Can you be sure that Peter wasn't bi-sexual ?

Perhaps a toy-boy of Grant , as well as a play-thing of Ms.Slick ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 01:37:25 pm

With BB's list , the point is really that the Zodiac sought to abdicate responsibility for his behaviour , by passing on the blame to another , or others . And yet , he often appeared pleased , if not boastful for what he was doing .

Was it really attention-seeking for the thrill of a response to that attention-seeking ? Or , was there more that precipitated that which we observe of the Zodiac and , only starts to become acknowledged by him , in his letter to Melvin Belli ( ? ) .

'' The one thing I ask of you is this . please help me .''

'' Please help me I am drownding .''

'' Please help me I can not remain in control much longer .''

But , what was the Zodiac's core problem ?

'' I cannot reach out for help because this thing in me wont let me .''

What '' thing '' in the Zodiac ( ? ) , and was it the '' thing '' that had brought him to the wretched position of having taken at least 5 lives , in one year ?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 03:54:55 pm

We all say things that we don't mean ?

From a Reddit contributor , in the category of : '' We think we might know what you are saying .'' :

'' ALA is a great suspect . but none of the evidence fits .''

Judith
10/8/2020 05:06:17 pm

Yes Peter was bi-sexual. I believe he had two long time partners. Although he acted like he hated homo sexuals. My guess is he was the dominate one. This was unacceptable behavior in his youth.
They were still putting "fags" in jail.
His mother was a sexual abuser of little boys, our own son being a victim of hers.
I was young when we married, but he was good enough in bed. No weird things, very attentive.
Our daughter said he was luring in men under the guise of homosexual activity to a shed in Hercules in a grove of Eucalyptis trees.
He would kill them there.
On the way home he said "They won't be missed."

Rubislaw 32 link
10/8/2020 05:39:49 pm

How awful for you Judith , and thank you for your transparency .

Naturally , these were different times , and homosexual practices were against the law . I think Illinois were the first State to start repealing the sodomy laws (1962 ) . But it was a long process and has proven an even longer process to re-educate most societies .

The '' closet '' life was often the only option for those not wholly heterosexual and in many cases homophobia was not frowned upon since , the law was in effect on the side of those who cast aspersions - let alone any religious teachings .

Often the question comes up over the Zodiac's sexual orientation , and whether or to what extent that he may have been a misogynist .

There was certainly deep hate in his heart , for feeling hard done by , and probably self-hate at times of remission ,for having over-reacted . But , and for the most part , there was a happier side to the Zodiac's life , for which he could , at times , take solace .

From what you say , Judith , I can understand why you suspect Peter of having been the Zodiac , or at least someone capable of exceptional anti-social behaviour .

Roger
10/8/2020 06:36:56 pm

It all comes back to DNA. Submit some next of kin's DNA and see if it matches the 5 markers already known for Zodiac. All else is mere gossip and speculation at such an extremely late hour.

BB
10/8/2020 06:37:28 pm

Was Peter Catholic? How tall was he? The Lake Berryessa description
of 5'11" was off by a couple inches because of the Hood and boots and
the push of the cops to say the killer was taller. To seem more menacing.
They were playing it up for the media "Six foot or better" - this was a lie.
All of the other descriptions were for 5'8". But, we don't have to have the
Same guy doing all the killings. Peter could have committed just one of
the killings and that would make him the Zodiac. Because the main
guy behind the Zodiac may not have been the killer. The Zodiac is
a "they" not a "he". The evidence points to a small group of guys. They
wanted you to think the Zodiac character was a devil like super-villain.
Our understanding of the Zodiac is changing as our knowledge grows.
The group may include a guy at the Chronicle - a guy at the Examiner -
- a guy in LE. - a super smart guy like Don Cheney - and a connected mob
type like Klein or Spinelli. Grant and Allen and the others on the list were
just the decoys and fall guys for the Zodiac. They were guys that people
did not like. Click on Shawn or watch Black Box Online Radio on Youtube

Lou chamberlain
10/9/2020 07:45:56 pm

Hi there.. I have got to tell someone my true story. I used to go on holiday to Fort Walton beach. We met a guy who worked in a pawn shop called the silver mine. He was called Jim. We were on holiday from england. We got to know Jim through a love of Mrs browns boys, a comedy programme. Well to cut a long story short, once Jim gave me a zodiac watch. I never thought anything of it. That is, until one day a few years later, I had a light bulb moment. I had seen the zodiac film, with Jake gyllenhal, and so I became an amateur sleuth. You see, that watch that Jim had given me had the Libra scales engraved on the back and the cross hairs symbol. I think if it helps that the zodiac killer is a libran. BTW I gave the watch to a friend who has since mislaid it. . also you should know that Jim had 30 guns in his safe at home. My other name is Louise edge and I think in one of the ciphers there is LECH mentioned. I really wonder if myself and my ex fiance had a very narrow escape from zodiac. My name is Louise chamberlain. Jim is in his 70s and has moved to Chicago. I hope this is of interest to you. I really think the police are looking looking for a while male, who is a libran. Kind regards, Louise.

Roger
10/10/2020 06:36:29 pm

Nobody has commented. People may be wondering, as I am wondering, if you are genuine or if you are merely providing a lesson here in the subjectivity, cherry-picking and "hearsay" that comes with "pet suspects" like we are seeing with Judith's Peter. A watch with scales means very little, and the fact that it has been mislaid means even less. Put simply, there is no evidence it ever existed. A safe with 30 guns is interesting but does not make anyone the Zodiac and is probably long gone today. Lots of people had gun collections in those days. You became a Zodiac sleuth after watching the movie and you believe he was a Libran. The Zodiac may not have been a Libran. LECH could refer or mean whatever anybody likes it to mean, and the ciphers can be interpreted in multiple ways. So about the only thing your theory has going for it is "white male". You have provided an excellent lesson in the problems anyone can expect if they go "pet suspect" hunting.

Judith
10/8/2020 07:39:42 pm

Let me put it like this, California DOJ came to visit me in Sacramento early 2012. Our oldest son had already been a felon for years in the system and they should have had his DNA on file. So I'm thinking there must have been a match on the five markers, but as you know that could technically mean from what I understand about 200,000 men in the Bay Area. If there was no match I'm sure they wouldn't have wasted their time to come see me. I spoke with agent James Selby who was in charge of the zodiac case for DOJ out of San Francisco, there was a second agent an Asian lady. As well when we pulled up to the Starbucks that we agreed to meet at, there appeared to be other agents sitting at tables out front trying to act nonchalant.
Since that time we have uploaded our younger son's DNA into GED match and it is waiting there for anyone who cares to match it.
I agree it will all be about DNA .
All the rest, as Peter would say, is just Ducks farting in the water.

Judith
10/8/2020 07:44:06 pm

Peter was five foot nine and a half inches tall they were catholic on his father's side of the family but not his mother's. he would go to mass with his grandmother and he would keep his pet rat in his pocket while in the church. I don't write this stuff I just report it.

Two_Buck_Chuck
10/9/2020 08:16:14 am

Sorry, I'm a little late to this game Judith. Am I to understand that you're suggesting that a significant other of yours is the Zodiac? Is there somewhere you can point me to to read more about it. This is indeed quite interesting....

Judith
10/9/2020 09:14:10 am

Yes that would be my dead ex-husband Peter Plante. I wrote a book about it in 2012 entitled , "Tit Willow" by Judith Chapman available now on Amazon
Peter Plant is in the suspect Matrix for law enforcement for the Zodiac Killer. Most of your so-called Suspects on these websites have already been eliminated by law enforcement.

Two_Buck_Chuck
10/9/2020 09:33:23 am

Thanks kindly Judith,

I will certainly check that out. I'd sure love to get to the bottom of this although that element of mystery is what keeps us all interested. I've always found the main suspects to be ludicrous....

Rubislaw 32 link
10/9/2020 02:21:29 pm

Certainly wise words from you , Two_Buck_Chuck .

The Zodiac internet community could do with more contributors , with some '' down to earth '' realism since , many of the old guard got sucked down a black hole of self-delusion , a long time ago .

A famous comedian once recounted that he and his ex-wife came to a cross-roads in their marriage and , on both reflecting on their joint predicament , decided that they would either take a holiday to an exotic location , in order to rekindle a lost spark in their marriage - or simply plan for a divorce .

They plumped for the divorce - on account that it was something that they would always '' have '' . Whereas a holiday comes and it goes .

Allen , Grant and Cheney were genuine Zodiac suspects that were eliminated by the case's legal custodians , the CA DOJ , in 2002 , by DNA comparisons with the Zodiac's DNA profile . The other so-called suspects that you might see touted , represent the creation of the self-deluded internet old guard .

One can only presume that the old guard had already bought into the notion that the case had entered its '' folk lore '' stage , a long time ago , and could satisfy themselves that their adopted non-suspect , would be safe from any probing discernment .

A suspect that they would always '' have '' .

BB
10/9/2020 09:50:02 am

Judith


Did he ware shooters glasses when you went shooting with PSP?
Did he ware glasses all the time or just at certain times?
Can you find/show any pictures?

Judith
10/9/2020 10:20:31 am

Peter did not wear glasses
But after we were married I found a pair of horn rimmed glasses in his dresser. I asked him what they were and why didn't he wear them
he said, "Why do you think?"
When I asked his mother about it she just laughed.
I have recently begun to send Richard a lot of info including composite comparisons and handwriting samples.
I have no way of posting attachments here.
Thanks.

BB
10/9/2020 10:53:59 am

The Zodiac Killer would have benefited by the wearing of glasses while shooting.
The flash of the shots can send stippling and fragments into the eyes.
Shooters that send lots of lead down range will eventually experience this.
Did PSP do a lot of target practice?

BB
10/9/2020 05:44:10 pm

Judith
These serial killers have close relationships with their mothers - Just like Peter and Kemper and Kane.
Also in the 1960 movie Psycho with Anthony Perkins.
Do you think Peter's mother knew he was a killer?

Roger
10/9/2020 07:16:24 pm

I've always had a strong relationship with my mother, which could only be described as a lifelong friendship and a kindred bond. I guess we just got along. Must mean I'm a serial killer, huh? Would certainly make the cops job a lot easier, wouldn't it? Just find and lock up every mommy's boy because "He's got to be bad". Case solved, easy fix. lol! But this kind of thinking seems to suggest there must also be a lot of "evil" mothers out there. "What, he likes his mom?!!" SHOCK, HORROR, "Well he just has to be damaged goods! Either that or he must be gay!"
Good grief! I think I'll leave the pop psychology to the writers of TV soap operas, dime store novels, and comic books, thanks very much.

Roger
10/10/2020 06:00:21 pm

Must be lots of psychos in our America of today then. Well there are of course but I would suggest there are far more "socially-diverse" reasons for it than simply living with your folks. Rampant poverty has forced many children to stay at home with mom and dad for longer than in the past, and some have been forced back into living with their folks in order to survive. This is not unusual. It is happening everywhere in the Western world. Back in the Great Depression it was pretty much accepted and standard "policy" for families to stay together. Only since the "good times" of the 50s/60s/70s/80s have people had the luxury to be able to cut the financial purse and wallet strings, so to speak. It was really only in those decades that it was seen to be "odd" if a youngun should remain in the proverbial nest. Now with aged care costs spinning out of control and beyond the ability for many people to afford, we are also seeing more cases of kids returning to the family home or elderly parents moving in with the kids. At least that is what I am seeing today, so any stereotypes of psychos who live with mom and dad are fast becoming old hat. These days you are probably deemed to be more of a psycho if you abandon your parents or they abandon you. Having said this, I do understand that the woman Judith was talking about was not a fit mother and in fact her treatment of her son, in the absence of facts at our disposal, was possibly criminal. We really only have Judith's word on any of this. It is a poor investigator who only believes one side of any story.

BB
10/11/2020 08:50:53 am

It is a poor investigator who only believes one side of any story.

That is all we have to work with and generate possible leads.

It sucks but there is nothing but a heap of old trash to sift through.

But we know we can trust Judith - we have vetted her for years.

She is honest - and would not be doing this & just making it all up.

PSP fits the profile of things that went-on from about 1966 no earlier.

He was born is 1949 - he would be too young for the drive south.
But the train tracks make for an excellent path of travel.

I get that serial killers usually start killing about ages 13 -16 but that is usually the animal killing stage... usually. Unless he was a more advanced serial killer than the usual one. Hint Hint

Rubislaw 32 link
10/9/2020 09:17:52 pm

Mothers of serial killers .

Dr.Elizabeth Yardley , doctor of criminology at Birmingham City University , points out 3 distinct types of mothers that might be likely to raise a child who becomes a murderer .

Dr.Yardley : '' The mothers of Fred West , Robert Black , Joachim Kychala , Leszck Pekalski and Richard Kulkinski , created environments where brutality was everyday and expected . They actively abused or neglected their child , creating deviant value systems in which the abnormal became normal .

The 3 types of mothers :

i ) Anti-mothers .

Women who are victims of parental abuse themselves . They become the very aggressors that they had once loathed .

ii ) Uber-mothers .

Fiercely protective of their child . Gatekeepers that hold off the outside world , protecting their child from scrutiny , as the child becomes increasingly deviant .

iii ) Passive-mothers .

They respond through denial , when their child shows moral ineptitudes or deficiencies at school and beyond . Mothers who brush issues under the carpet , hoping those issues will go away .

Roger
10/10/2020 01:56:21 am

Passive mothers can actually be a good thing if the teacher happens to be a sociopath.

Judith
10/9/2020 10:23:51 pm

Guns and mothers.
Yes Peter did a lot of target shooting he also had lots of safety eyeglasses partly due to his work in construction as well he kept a bucket full of knives as he was an insulator some of them were covered in Cotton tape handles.
He owned a 22 rifle which I shot frequently.
With regards to his mother Peter could do no wrong he was King God. Having said that she was a child molester so maybe a little understanding for the messed up man she created. She left our son in a mess as well.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/10/2020 07:09:26 am

While noting , Richard , just thought I would put on the table another link to your recent introduction to your readers , Black Bart a.k.a. Charles Earl Boles , a teacher from Norfolk , England , who became known as '' California's Robin Hood '' .

Black Bart was a Highwayman who predominantly robbed Wells Fargo Stagecoaches , and sent poems , signed '' Po8 '' (poet )

In D B Cooper's letter of December 11th 1971 , he writes :

'' I'm no modern day Robin Hood . Unfortunately I do have only 14 months to live .''

Interesting also , because it had never been assumed , up to that point , that Dan Cooper intended to keep his $200,000 for anyone but himself . Not least a perceived phoney claim of a fairly precise period of time to live ( 14 months ) .

Also of interest perhaps , are the early offerings from the Prog Rock band '' Genesis '' , who were known for the clever word-play in their lyrics , such as '' You are a robbing hood '' .

The work of Genesis may well have had an influence on the Zodiac latterly , if only on recognition , with works including '' Selling England by the Pound '' , '' Nursery Crymes '' and '' A Trick of the Tail '' which , is a reference to '' Moby Dick '' .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/10/2020 08:12:59 am

So , for those who might not be up to speed , December 3rd 1968 , and a demand note submitted to the Wells Fargo Bank , Sutter Street Office , San Francisco : '' This is Bank Rhobery If you don't do as I say , I will shot . Zodiac . ''

The Wells Fargo link suggests a possibly influence from '' Black Bart ''. Forward to December 15th 1971 , two correspondences to The Oregonian newspaper and FBI Offices in Portland , Oregon . One correspondence , a cut & paste , which includes the lines :

'' Grant me '' and '' alais ( sic ) D B Cooper ''

Signed by someone calling themselves :

'' David Bartholomew Copperhead ''

Ref : D B Cooper FBI File 16 , Pages 402-408 .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/10/2020 08:24:43 am

Bartholomew = Bart .

But what is a '' Copperhead '' ( apart from a snake ) ?

A pacifist for the Union , during the American Civil War .

'' Grant me '' ?

'' Someone '' accusing William Grant , of cowardice ( ? ) .

BB
10/10/2020 12:42:22 pm

Copperhead, also called Peace Democrat, during the American Civil War, pejoratively, any citizen in the North who opposed the war policy and advocated restoration of the Union through a negotiated settlement with the South. The word Copperhead was first so used by the New York Tribune on July 20, 1861, in reference to the snake that sneaks and strikes without warning.https://www.britannica.com/topic/Copperhead-American-political-faction

To demonize people seeking peace - The people that control us use this image of a snake to prejudice and influence. Thus is the nature of propaganda. To brainwash with an appeal to the lower parts of the brain. Fear and loathing. The ultimate king of propaganda was Hearst. With his use of yellow journalism the puppeteer played with his puppets. War is driven by propaganda/yellow journalism. This is the diabolical place where the Zodiac was born.

The many works and phrases used by the Zodiac writer points to the genesis of the Zodiac. Perhaps the newspaper business is not the benign workings of creative writers that we have been led to believe. This is a place where rich and powerful men put out their ideas to the masses. Of course it is serious business. Oz is the world. And Hearst was the wizard. Grinell has found loads of examples of works the Zodiac uses and references which expose the mind of it's creator. Only those people immersed in the world of that literature and exposed to a daily dose of those
newspapers and propaganda could of had. These images are of at-least two minds. Cowboy comix of the 50's. Red hood Detective magazines of the 40's. Blue meanies of the 60's. This is further proof the zodiac can not be only one man. There are ideas that come from some man born well before the depression. And they could have only been accumulated with this breadth and variety over the course of several lifetimes. Like in a family business - it's past from father to son. Then the baton is picked up by the next generation with new imagery yet with that same working theme. The reason they will never be able to identify a single man that did everything is there is no one man. There is a small group of guys - maybe 5 or 10 guys. Carrying on a way of doing business. Going back with Jack the Ripper in 1888.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/10/2020 04:36:41 pm

Most interesting , BB , on the '' Copperhead '' derivation , and how peaceful dissent has played its part in modern history . With the '' Hawks or Doves ? '' line coming from the White House , in the wake of 911 , being a recent example .

With further thought on the submission of a demand note to the Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco . on December 3rd 1968 , and signed '' Zodiac ''.....one can rarely or never be insistent about many aspects of the Zodiac case , but this is certainly a tantalizing piece of information .

What we have is someone make menacing demands , by the name of '' Zodiac '' , and 17 days before the attack on Lake Herman Road when , the Zodiac was to remain silent over his proclaimed moniker until after his second attack , at Blue Springs Rock , six months following Lake Herman Road .

The possibility emerges , therefore , that the Zodiac had already made his mind up about adopting the Zodiac moniker , as early as December 3rd 1968 and , a further possibility that the mere handing over of a note , to scare bank officials wasn't going to accomplish a greater task , set out ( ? ) . This would come on December 20th 1968 , with the murder of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen....and still , the Zodiac would decide not to disclose his Zodiac moniker for another six months , and the murder of Darlene Ferrin .

After the double murder at LHR , the lead investigator , Les Lundblad , very methodically , focused first on those that might know Faraday & Jensen , and their contemporaries in particular . Through reading police reports , it becomes apparent that within ten days , Lundblad is looking beyond probable associates of the slain couple , and retrospectively at least , the name '' William Grant '' emerges out of the pack and , the 49 year old Grant was still the prime suspect after the murder of Darlene Ferrin.....though eliminated , beyond reasonable doubt , 32 years later .

I believe , therefore , that the date December 3rd 1968 is worthy of holding on to , as the real incarnation of the Zodiac , and that the Zodiac's motive , in part at least , was the targeting of William Grant , for persecution .

Rubislaw 32 link
10/10/2020 05:59:24 pm

....yes , correction : '' Blue Rock Springs '' .

'' It's all too much '' , as the Beatles sang , on the Yellow submarine album .

Darlene '' knew '' alright....about the Zodiac's links with Grant....and '' had to die '' , as a result .


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