THE BAY AREA BRAGGART

3/3/2018

Inspired by the excellent feedback in comments, we will tackle the widely perceived notion that the murderer of five, known as the Zodiac Killer, enjoyed bragging and boasting about his four canonical crimes. The skepticism surrounding the brutal knife attack on Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard lingers - not only from the theatrical aspect of the crime - but from the evident lack of correspondence detailing his exploits by the lake. The Zodiac Killer (assuming the 340 cipher was not Lake Berryessa specific) did not mail any communication outlining the murder and attempted murder of the couple alongside the Knoxville Road. It will be argued, that the lack of communication, boasting and detailing the Lake Berryessa crime, was not unusual in regard to the Zodiac. The Bay Area killer never willingly boasted or went into extensive detail about any of his first two crimes either.

The Zodiac refrained from any communication after the December 20th 1968 murders, until three communications arrived six-and-a-half months later to three newspapers.
There was no boasting about either Lake Herman Road or Blue Rock Springs. The killer simply provided details and 'evidence' he was the responsible:

"This is the murderer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass at Lake Herman + the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo. To prove I killed them I shall state some facts which only I + the police know".

Christmass. [1] Brand name of ammo Super X [2] 10 shots were fired [3] the boy was on his back with his feet to the car [4] the girl was on her right side feet to the west.
4th July. [1] girl was wearing paterned slacks [2] The boy was also shot in the knee [3] Brand name of ammo was western.

The decrypted 408 cipher contained a rambling message, but made no direct reference to either of the first three murders. The details he did provide in the three letters, were only given as evidence that the author was indeed the killer. No facts about how each crime unfolded and how he terrorized the victims was given by the Zodiac Killer. This probably would have been the end of it regarding the Benicia and Vallejo murders, but for Vallejo Police Chief Jack E. Stiltz, who still expressed doubts regarding the author's claims. He specifically asked for the killer to contact the newspapers or police again. Chief Jack E. Stiltz was less than satisfied that the letter writer and killer were one and the same, as detailed in an extract from the Saturday August 2nd 1969 San Francisco Chronicle. He requested the writer to send a second letter "with more facts to prove it." Another Zodiac article featured the following day on Sunday August 3rd 1969 in the San Francisco Examiner. Jack E Stiltz was "still not convinced the letters and codes were written by the actual killer". The police chief "urged the writer to send more letters, with more facts to prove his connections to the crimes".

The response by the Zodiac was swift, when the following day the San Francisco Examiner received the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter giving the police chief what he had asked for. It stated "In answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo, I shall be very happy to supply even more material". Without the prompt by Jack E. Stiltz, it is extremely likely this communication would never have been composed and sent to the newspapers. Our knowledge of the 'pencil flashlight', the supposed negro eyewitness, or his recollection of the Mageau shooting would never have been known. In other words, he didn't willingly brag about the crimes, he was prompted into a response by the utterances of the Vallejo police chief. But for Jack E. Stiltz, the Zodiac Killer may not have written from July 31st 1969 until October 13th 1969, when the Paul Stine letter arrived. In two-and-a-half months the killer had murdered five people and attempted to murder two people, yet during this time period he would have likely written only two sets of communications. Not much of a braggart. Therefore, the fact the killer failed to write extensively about his Lake Berryessa exploits was not particularly out of character.

But for two phone calls taking credit for the second and third crime, he seemed rather less than forthcoming about detailing the mechanics of his murders unless prompted.

His murder of Paul Stine on October 11th 1969 was followed by a relatively short letter. It declared "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the north bay area". He was once again supplying evidence he was the killer, just like the July 31st 1969 letters, but added no details whatsoever about the actual murder of the taxicab driver or his exploits in the taxicab.

He added a brief description about his venture into the park, stating "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover". The inability of police to capture him was highlighted, but again, there was no maniacal boasting about the murder or extensive details regarding it. Then came the prompting once more. This time by Chief of Inspectors Martin Lee.

Chief Martin Lee, speaking to the San Francisco Chronicle, stated "His boast of being in the area we were searching while we were searching, it is a lie. We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country. A mouse couldn't have escaped our attention". link. He added "The fact Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves he wasn't anywhere in the vicinity". This last statement is patently flawed logic, because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This, coupled with the police stating Zodiac made mistakes, forced Zodiac into a response outlining details about the crime. Whether this was a cunning ploy by police to rile the Zodiac Killer into further communication and possibly trip himself up, or whether they really believed Zodiac never entered the park, can only be speculated. But it worked.

.On November 9th 1969 the Zodiac Killer mailed the Bus Bomb letter, opening with the lines "I have grown rather angry with the police for their telling lies about me. So I shall change the way the collecting of slaves. I shall no longer announce to anyone. When I committ my murders, they shall look like routine robberies, killings of anger, + a few fake accidents, etc". Remember, Chief Martin Lee had called Zodiac a liar.

However, not once did the Zodiac Killer brag or boast about the callous murder of Paul Stine. He reacted to the police claims, by retorting "2 cops pulled a goof, hey pig doesnt it rile you up to have your noze rubed in your booboos, the police don't have much to work on, as of yet I have left no fingerprints behind me contrary to what the police say, and I was leaving fake clews for the police to run all over town with". The rest of his communication was reserved for the bomb he was allegedly constructing. The Zodiac Killer was full of threats, but so far hadn't willingly boasted about the very nature and details of his chilling crimes.

The final line of the Bus Bomb letter is testimony to the agenda of the Zodiac Killer up to this point, adding "To prove that I am the Zodiac, Ask the Vallejo cop about my electric gun sight which I used to start my collecting of slaves". The Zodiac Killer was referring to the Vallejo cop Jack E. Stiltz, who prompted the Debut of Zodiac letter, asking for more details, The Zodiac did respond - informing Jack E. Stiltz about his 'pencil flashlight' or electric gun sight. The Bus Bomb letter was in direct response to Chief Martin Lee, to whom, he was trying to prove he did venture into the park and didn't leave any evidence at the crime scene. However, what is evidently lacking in this communication, is the lack of glorification in the murder or detailing of the actual crime itself.

The Zodiac Killer was undoubtedly a ruthless and merciless killer, but as of November 9th 1969, the closest the Zodiac Killer came to boasting about the actual murders and attempted murders thus far, was when asked to do so. He replied to Jack E. Stiltz, informing him that "I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time, thus spoiling my aim. He ended up on the back seat then the floor in back thashing out very violently with his legs; that's how I shot him in the knee" and "All I had to do was spray them as if it was a water hose".

The Bus Bomb letter may still have been mailed, but that is probably all it would have contained - details of his bus bomb and the threat of more murders - and likely little or no reference to the murder he had already committed. Had he wanted to provide copious material about the Paul Stine murder, he had every opportunity when he mailed the October 13th 1969 letter, but he refrained from doing so. The premise of the Zodiac Killer, as somebody who enjoyed boasting about his crimes is not apparent in his writings, unless pushed. The threats however, would still continue.

The Zodiac Killer thought he had provided all the evidence required to prove he was the Lake Berryessa perpetrator, by writing on the car door of Bryan Hartnell's white Karmann Ghia and making the telephone call, yet it wasn't enough for some. Despite this being his most audacious crime to date, he again remained deafeningly silent on the specifics of the attack. Bryan Hartnell's survival and testimony of the crime, would inadvertently give the Zodiac Killer all the newspaper coverage of the actual crime he needed, if this was ever a requirement of the Zodiac Killer. Every correspondence to date, other than the extra details he was prompted into supplying, had one thing in common.

July 31st 1969: "If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry. night. I will cruse around all weekend killing lone people in the night then move on to kill again, until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend".

October 13th 1969: "School children make nice targets, I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning. Just shoot out the front tire + then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out".

November 8th 1969: "This is the Zodiac speaking. I though you would nead a good laugh before you hear the bad news. You won't get the news for a while yet. Could you print this new cipher in your frunt page ? I get aufully lonely when I am ignored, so lonely I could do my Thing".

November 9th 1969: "What you do not know is whether the death machine is at the sight or whether it is being stored in my basement for future use. I think you do not have the manpower to stop this one by continually searching the road sides looking for this thing. + it wont do to re roat + re schedule the busses because the bomb can be adapted to new conditions. Have fun!! By the way it could be rather messy if you try to bluff me. PS. Be shure to print the part I marked out on page 3 or I shall do my thing".

It was the threat of the crime itself, not the basking in the crime that had passed. The Zodiac Killer was prompted into ridiculing the police and supplying them with "more details" about the crimes, but terror was the 'thing' he enjoyed most.

Lemonboy

3/3/2018 07:18:43 am

Another great article Richard.I’ve always been of the belief that Zodiac wasn’t in it for the fame as much as people believe he was. I think he was definitely capable of killing and resisting in taking the credit since I am a believer that he killed way more than the canonical 5. People look too much into him needing credit I really don’t believe he did. Why would he even consider making killings look like accidents if he was so bent On adding to his tally? Because he wasn’t as needy for credit as he is made out to be. He just wanted to kill no matter who what or where. He was egotistical in his communications with police but when it came to murder he got down to business. The threats he made he would’ve been a fool to go through with them as 12 kills over a weekend would have definitely gotten him caught so I think this is how he toyed with police. Going through on any of these threats would’ve stopped his collection of slaves which I believe was his number one objective.

Ray Jenkins

3/3/2018 05:39:16 pm

Yes indeed Lemonboy, always the taunt was more important than the perfection (grammatical correctness), and the boast was more important than the facts.

The thing with tallies is he could write down whatever number he wanted, whether true or not.

Still, nobody can deny that he had an immense ego. That is plain to see. He was a media whore when it suited him, but only when it suited him. It had to be on his terms or not at all. After all, he was the one who demanded his ciphers and parts of his letters be published in the papers. Whether he demanded this because he felt obliged to play along to the media's fiddle, I guess we will never know. My feeling is he did get off on the publicity and the notoriety, and this fueled him up for his next kill.

The Zodiac's MO goes like this:

1) commit a fast and random and violent attack on somebody
2) flee the scene, but occasionally leave something "witchy" behind, i.e. writing on a door or gloves.
3) ring the cops anonymously, claiming or at least implying responsibility.
4) write letters boasting about it to the paper and police,include mysterious stuff like ciphers and spooky cards, or bits of evidence.
5) repeat from step 1.

This is perhaps one of the reasons why LE are often very reluctant to mention serial killers to the media these days, and for that matter, the media tend to show a reluctance to publish correspondence from potential killers. They do not want them to have the "benefit" of publicity. The Zodiac case was a great media blunder on the part of LE, but a blunder that sadly could not really have been avoided at the time. It is a mistake to make a serial killer seem famous!

Lemonboy

3/4/2018 09:00:21 am

Hey Ray actually I think we might be disagreeing here. I believe the boasting or taunting of police was important but his priority was to kill as many people as he could. As Richard was trying to explain in this article his letters never included any details about any crime unless he was prompted to. The main objective of his letters were to taunt police and after he got bored of this he went back to killing randomly like I believe he was doing before the first confirmed murders. The letter writing I think was just a phase he went through and got over. But that’s just my theory

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 04:01:35 pm

Lemonboy, for a serial killer bent on killing as many as he could, I would have to say he made a pretty poor effort of it. There were long lapses in between killings and correspondence. I think you may be believing the Zodiac's own mythical hype about how truly great he was a serial killer. In reality he was not. He was, to quote Dirty Harry, a legend in his own mind. Perhaps if the Zodiac ever needed a press agent, you would have made a good one.

Lemonboy

3/4/2018 05:23:46 pm

Haha yea I admit Ray your right about him not being the most effective serial killer of all time as he was only 5/7 on his known murders. I just tend to take any murderer that was never caught pretty serious. I know he got VERY lucky on multiple occasions but he had to have been at least somewhat skilled as he was never caught.

Drew

3/3/2018 09:58:06 am

Interesting framework here Richard. Would you mark a turning point when boasting did become Zodiac's correspondence objective? I suppose the Belli letter was similar to the above in so far as it came with a threat, but by the time the little list came about he seemed to be in full braggart swing. Would you characterize it differently?

Unfortunately I have to do stuff today but I will be interested to read the responses you get here. My motto is if Richard and Tahoe agree on something you can take it to the bank! Cheers

Richard

3/3/2018 11:34:25 am

It is telling the Zodiac never personalized any victim, referring to them by name. As Lemonboy stated it was 'business' as usual, providing the evidence, giving a total and making his next threat. He had plenty of opportunities in his letters to describe the murders in detail had he chosen, but opted to effectively confirm he was the responsible. Possibly, the police wanting him to prove he was the killer or disbelieving him, such as his park excursion, gave him a taste for rubbing the police and newspapers face in their failure to capture him. The Little List letter did take a more sinister approach, but again never mentioned any victim by name, and never reveled in the actual murders themselves. It spoke of torture to the already departed waiting for him in Paradice. Without meaning to be insensitive, the Zodiac was writing in generic form, implying the 13 victims in group form only. The rest of the correspondence was more threats- I've got a little list of society offenders. But certainly drew, the mention of torture was certainly a shift- albeit based in fantasy, and not on an actual living victim. I don't believe the killing was his primary goal, or the reveling in the act- it was a means to his letter writing and publicity. Unfortunately, the victims were incidental to him- it was about being noticed. He left all six victims in his first three crimes alive, albeit, David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen and Darlene Ferrin barely alive. He could have made sure the couple at Berryessa died, rather than aiming for the back (don't want to get too graphic). He could have returned to finish Michael off, because he must have realized he had left the vehicle, as he described his position above. The attack was the purpose, and the publicity that followed, but not the boasting of the murders. That is why I have such a problem with the Riverside murder of Cheri Jo Bates, or should I say the Confession and Bates letters, which not only name the victim, but contact her father and glorify the slaughter of the young girl, giving us all the machinations and details of the actual murder itself, something Zodiac never did. It could be that he was on a learning curve, but if the CJB crime was his first, it could be argued it was his most brutal.

Richard

3/3/2018 11:36:13 am

Sorry, I mistakenly didn't capitalize Drew, I apologize.

Drew

3/4/2018 11:34:08 am

Yeah, you better capitalize my name Richard, you polite gentleman you! This discussion is very empowering for sleuths investigating the authenticity of the Zodiac/hoax letters. While as a killer we only have four items to really look at there are several letters to give us a sense of what he was after in his correspondences (which seem clearly to be his end game). It's quite something after all this time to reevaluate the 'boastful' slayer tag and see it evaporate. You have developed a well-earned knack for dissolving long-held notions like this.

You've touched on one thought regarding whether Zodiac was relatively local to Vallejo that has bothered me a while - why he left Mageau alive. He probably wasn't too concerned that Shepard had from a distance seen his face and he likely had confidence that Faraday and Jensen and (slightly less so) Ferrin would be unable to speak to police. What can we gleam from the fact that he left poor Mike to suffer an uncertain fate? My brother and I have discussed whether causing suffering itself rather than death was what satisfied his desire for evil - this is a mindset that I will never grasp, and even if I could I don't think it gets us any closer to an identification.

While it still could be contended that leaving a Vallejo resident victim alive suggests that Zodiac was not worried about being recognized by a neighbour, and therefore he was from out of town, combined with the other residence signifiers you have highlighted, Mageau's "merciful" survival could perhaps equally be attributed to a profile of Zodiac as simply from a different age group and social circle than any of these "boys" "girls" "kids" as he referred to them. I live in a town not much bigger than Vallejo but there are a lot of scary residents here that I am sure I will never run into.

If the real Zodiac truly communicated as poorly and nihilistically as his writing persona, and his attire represented his misalignment with current styles, then he may have been wholly anti-social within his hometown community. Although this may go against the expectations we draw from that of a regular San Francisco commuter the idea helps me rationalize his motivations. I currently think he was tortured by a mundane existence that kept him removed from the groovy vibes of the day.

In attempting to discern who Zodiac was and what he wanted we need to also consider that he did not target drug addicts, homeless persons, or prostitutes or what some at the time may have insensitively considered social degenerates. If he had he may not have drawn the news coverage he desired. I doubt his decision to not be this type of killer was based on any more than that. He did not target 'society offenders' and likely didn't know enough about them to even know where they fit in society. Cecilia Shepard and Darlene Ferrin may have lived very differently but at a glance they were both just young and beautiful and he knew that they in fact would be missed.

Thanks Richard, looking forward to the next one!

Judith N Chapman

3/3/2018 09:59:01 am

My sense is that Berryessa is most definitely a zodiac crime. He did write on the car door. He wore the Zodiac symbol on his costume. His, by the way, evidence transferring protection suit. He was making statements, not bragging. My own suspect took me to the location of the murder unbeknownst to me over and over during our marriage. The first time we went was extremely disturbing as I detail in my book, "Tit Willow". Local Bay Area kids often went to Lake Berryessa with their parents for boating. Frequently Young Folks would go there to drink or smoke pot and party. Visualize this one the Zodiac Killer water skiing on Lake Berryessa as a Young Man.

Richard

3/3/2018 11:56:01 am

I know Tahoe has her doubts about this crime, which I don't share. That however, is what constructive debate is all about- none of us can agree all of the time. Good job really, there would be nothing to discuss.
I just think, had a hoaxer committed one of Zodiac's crimes, he likely would have followed the pattern of the first two, and then mailed a letter. If this was another 'psycho', then he went to extraordinary lengths to pass it off as Zodiac, then write in similar fashion to Zodiac (albeit questioned), then make a phone call constructed in identical language as the first verified call, leave the receiver off the hook, supposedly from his Springs/Tuolumne experience, and then not claim the murder, as Zodiac had previously done. The alternative of a hoaxer is for me, would require the hoaxer imitating Zodiac and effectively outdoing him. Had it been a hoaxer, there must be a reason why he imitated Zodiac, rather than just commit murder off his own back. Had the couple been specifically targeted, then the reasoning behind the impersonation I could understand- to throw off investigators.

Richard

3/3/2018 12:14:38 pm

Correction: "and then not claim the murder in letter form, as Zodiac had previously done."

Shawn

3/3/2018 05:25:20 pm

Without a doubt the Paul Stine murder is the best evidence linking the Zodiac killer writer as a killer. Three pieces of Paul Stine shirts in 3 different envelopes. Leaves little doubt and maybe less to brag about.

LHR and BRS is open to criticism (although I believe Zodiac did it) from the likes of people like Thomas Horan who thinks Zodiac had inside information to what police had and then wrote the information in his letters to act like he was the killer.

Napa is a different Animal. (I think he did it). But seems to have the least evidence of the four attacks as the Zodiac being the killer.

Unless the police held something back that allows them to definitely say it was a zodiac murder beside matching the writing on the car door.

Ray Jenkins

3/3/2018 05:52:21 pm

Yes indeed, to suggest that this crime did not take place tends to be both dismissive and offensive to the suffering and later testimonies of both Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell. To deny that Lake Berryessa was a Zodiac crime is akin to denying the Holocaust in my opinion. And yes Judith, it would not surprise me at all if the Zodiac was a Lake Berryessa regular, who enjoyed such activities as hunting, fishing and boating on the lake in his younger days.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 10:32:04 am

Interesting comments,from both Shawn and Ray.

If it helps to understand,some of what was going on in the background :

As documented,by a letter of conformation,written by Napa County Sheriff,Earl Randol,.....a long telephone conversation had taken place,three days earlier,between Randol and Riverside Police Captain,Donald Townsend.

This,on October 20th 1969.The discussion centred around similarities between the murders,and accompanying writings,between Zodiac confirmed crimes,and the crime attributed to Cheri Jo Bates.

We have to move forward,more than a year,to November 1970 when,conversations started to take place,on a possible Cheri Jo Bates link,between Paul Avery,Sgt John Lynch of the Vallejo Police,and Captain Irv Cross of the Riverside Police.

So,going back to October 17th 1969,Napa County were in touch with Riverside.

Which would include Hartnell's car door and the Joseph Bates letter.

Judith N Chapman

3/3/2018 03:26:55 pm

What a horrifying crime

Judith N Chapman

3/3/2018 03:29:53 pm

According to my conversations with the Napa sheriff's department they were not able to recover any full DNA profiles from the Lake Berryessa evidence. Amazing

Ray Jenkins

3/3/2018 05:47:19 pm

Very sad! These days they would have found DNA evidence everywhere. The Zodiac would have sweated and left fragments of skin and hair behind. He was there for some time, so may have even excreted once or twice. They should have brought in tracker dogs to completely reveal his path in and out to look for evidence. As far as I know, none of this took place, which I find really, really odd. I realize that DNA was virtually unheard of back then, but still, if only a more thorough search had been undertaken and more evidence found and bagged, this could have revealed so much more today.

Judith N Chapman

3/4/2018 10:10:37 am

I believe there was an investigation that gave us the wingwaker show print. Also a glass beer bottle and cigarette butts? Lengths of cut cords. A surviving victim, with his account. Didn't Zodiac include the Berryessa attack in his victim count? Handwriting evidence on the car door. Anyway the costume the killer wore prevented the transfer of hair, blood, type of evidence. In fact, no one has solved this murder.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 10:46:07 am

Yes Judith,I believe the wingwalker show print was retrieved from beside Hartnell's door.

Effectively,where Zodiac crouched to write out his ''score card''.

Anyone know different ?

Richard

3/4/2018 11:30:01 am

I put this on the forum: Looking at all the weather data for September in Napa, there was no precipitation in September with temperatures that ranged from a maximum of 37 degrees to a minimum of 8 degrees. There is certainly no record of rain in the days before September 27th 1969. On that day the ground had baked in temperatures of over 30 degrees for most of the day. These footprints could have been anybody who had previously walked that route from parking area to shore. Do you believe it's conceivable the footprints recorded and photographed that day could possibly have been made by the killer. The soil certainly wasn't damp. Some have stated they may be footprints in dusty ground. However, the trail was over quite a distance. In dusty ground would footprints take over the entire distance. That ground was baked solid, likely with air currents from the lake. Ten and a half bootprints at Berryessa, size 7 gloves at PH (although not confirmed gloves from Zodiac) and in the questionable Zodiac crime at Riverside a heelprint indicated that the impression would have been attached to an eight to ten size shoe.
Are we sure the Berryessa footprints were made by the killer, rather than days or weeks earlier.

Drew

3/4/2018 12:00:04 pm

I don't consider the prints to be definitely from Zodiac because they were taken from behind the car not beside it where we know he would have left the most defined impression while writing on the car door, but anyone championing a suspect with that shoe size shouldn't be shy about raising it up the flag pole. I'm confused about the weather report though - I thought it rained soon after the attack and that is why they had to fold up the picnic blanket crime scene. If not, why the heck did they do that?

Richard

3/4/2018 12:19:44 pm

https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=1h7m59s

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 01:50:31 pm

Absolutely Richard.

Can we really be sure that the wingwalkers were Zodiac's [?].

As far as I am aware,the investigating police acted ''in good faith'',in that they assumed,from examination,that the shoe soul impressions appeared to come from the person that wrote on Hartnell's door.

Hence,retrieve good casts,before removal of the door,as an exhibit piece of evidence,in itself.

But,''good faith'' does not guarantee ''surety'' [?].

John

3/4/2018 11:23:56 am

The Zodiac didn't boast because I believe he knew how investigators went about their investigations. It could be argued that Zodiac was an ex-police officer or wanted to be one but failed the exam/physical. Or maybe he was a fan of Perry Mason and police dramas that were popular in the 1960s and new about police work from those shows. And when he did boast, he only gave the bare minimum when it came to information. The less investigators had to work with, the harder it would be to catch him.

KayElleSF

3/4/2018 12:46:28 pm

This is not a comment on the writings of this blog (which are exceptional and well thought out) but of some of the outlandish assertions being made throughout the Zodiac blogosphere in general.

The practice of deconstructing the canonical crimes is getting out of hand, imo. The seemingly endless onslaught of conspiracy/copycat theories along with the questioning of established canonical crimes has devolved into a sort of morbid parlor game. In the absence of clear answers, the inclination is to reinvent the whole damn thing.. or top the next guy with a new, more "creative" theory.

While all reasonable possibilities should be explored, the farther we roam off the range and latch onto outliers, the further we get from the truth.

Judith N Chapman

3/4/2018 12:57:55 pm

I agree. The more we stick to confirmed evidence the better.

KayElleSF

3/4/2018 02:03:21 pm

Well said, Judith. There's nothing wrong with speculation as long as it fits in with the facts as we know them.

3/4/2018 01:39:25 pm

The first election to the London County council election was happening and the Rippers first murder took place on August 31 1888 This may have been a hit taken of "riff raff" whom none of them be missed, by someone seeking higher office. As, the papers went crazy - so did Hearst's papers in San Fransisco at the time. Then the operation including the kabuki theater Mikado repeated in 1968 San Fransisco with Anton la Vey taking the place of Alister Crowley. Wow - wild speculations! Or does 5 murders of Ripper beget 5 murders of Zodiac both unsolvable mean co-incidence? I agree. I find their in-ability really, really odd. Are they too rich to jail, too big to fail? Have you been to the Hearst Castle? The Number one film of all time according to the critics was about WRH. And, Hearst did not allow its mention in any of his papers.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 02:29:39 pm

Some fascinating references and possible influences,BB.

There is general mood to ''keep it real'' in this collection of comments.

Though I wasn't aware of any inclinations to ''unreality'' [?][!].

A pertinent point perhaps [?].

This notion that Zodiac assumed that he would intend for one or more victims to survive.....is nonsense.

Zodiac,and as far as the authorities are aware,attempted to murder seven people,in his Bay Area spree......and failed on two occasions [Hartnell and Mageau].

There never was a moment when Zodiac considered that he would leave a victim to survive.

He simply ended up with a ''kill success'' of five out of seven.

That's the long and the short of it.

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 04:21:19 pm

I always get a laugh from posters who claim to know something with absolute certainty, when in reality there is no way they could know for sure.

You've got to admit this. If Bryan Hartnell did not survive, and Cecelia Shephard did not survive long enough, then nobody would have ever known a thing about the elaborate Zodiac costume.

So we have to ask ourselves, why would someone dress up so elaborately to slaughter two people who would never live to tell another soul about it? What would have been the point of the exercise, considering Zodiac loved the media spotlight and watched for his pseudonym in the newspapers after his deeds? The costume became a part of the myth and legend and folklore that the Zodiac was in all likelihood trying to create in the public's mind.

So why did he wear such an elaborate costume? Simply to strike fear into two people, or was his intended audience far greater?

Did he wear the costume in case someone else was watching from afar or crouching behind a bush nearby? Was he trying to cover all bases in the event that Cecelia and Bryan fled and they got away, or he could only take out one of them and the other escaped? A witness would have little chance of providing an accurate description of the offender. But really, the Zodiac could have simply worn any kind of simple facial concealment. Why so elaborate? Why so planned? Why so detailed?

Let us consider for a second the possibility that the Zodiac was a surgeon or paramedic by occupation, or even a student who had a good understanding of human anatomy. There are certain places where the human body can be perforated which will allow the person to stay alive for a considerable time before death. Remember too that the Zodiac often went to a phone and reported his misdeeds, knowing full well that the police and ambulance would race to the scene.

Nobody knows for sure exactly what the Zodiac was up to, or what he intended, or who he was for that matter, and that is the thing. Nobody knows for sure, so there will always be many scenarios, questions and doubts about why things happened the way they did.

KayElleSF

3/4/2018 06:23:23 pm

My feeling is that Zodiac was a classic sadist. He relished instilling terror in his victims and playing the role of executioner was tremendously satisfying to him (hence the costume). The idea that his killings were just a means of getting media attention seems an over simplification to me. Zodiac got off on psychologically torturing his victims and his letters were a way to expand that punishment to the greater population.

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 10:44:27 pm

I would say it was both. He got off on the killing, then he got off on the media attention. A doubly gratuitous whammy!

KayElleSF

3/5/2018 10:04:14 pm

I agree, Ray. He savored both elements of "his thing".

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 04:48:44 pm

Perhaps,on an actual point of fantasy,Richard,it's nice to see the Bus Bomb diagram displayed.

Often,I think we just look at it,in a two-dimensional sense....and not really take in what Zodiac intended to impress us with [?].

Just on my limited knowledge of electrical engineering,it appears to be a ''cartoon'' effort....and I have read,that experts deemed it implausible.....not really a surprise [?].

Even if we allow for Zodiac's inability to keep it all to scale,there are some ''hilarious'' aspects.

The direction of the turning mechanism for ignition,is given indication,with an arrow,that would more likely be seen in an old fashioned comic,with a story about ''Cowboys and Indians''.

In addition the receptive ''mirror'' is indicated by a simple line.It is difficult to evaluate whether the mirror ''trigger'',is proposed to be a shaving one,strategically placed in the branch of a roadside tree...or an enormous elevated one,of ''billboard'' proportions.

Nice touch,perhaps,with the two 6 volt batteries,,and 6 bags of explosives [?].Hence ''666' [?].

Always intended as a joke,I would have thought [?].

But,by then,the authorities knew that Zodiac did,and was capable of,killing.

So,Zodiac could afford the ''luxury'' of horsing about [?].

His ''banked'' kills,gave him ''carte blanche'' on aspects of terror.

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 10:50:24 pm

Hah, yes the "bus bomb". I always get the distinct impression that the Zodiac was never serious about this, or about picking off kiddies as they come tumbling out of the bus. I think this was all just a big, fat taunt on his part. The bus bomb reminds me of something from a Wile Coyote cartoon, or the Batman series. In fact, reading the Zodiac's "dastardly, diabolical plot" I cannot help but hear the words in my head as a William Dozier commentary. "Will Zodiac's fiendish plot succeed? Stay tuned folks, same bat time, same bat channel!"

Rubislaw 32 link

3/4/2018 06:54:38 pm

Yes,KayElleSF,you put it very well about Zodiac being the classic sadist.

And,I agree with you on your point of over simplification,with regard to exclusivity for media attention.

As referred to in the past,I believe that Zodiac's original intention was to make one man's life a ''living hell''.But,what he started to enact,and the stakes he elect to draw,were of such seriousness,that they inevitably led to media attention.

Whether he could see the magnitude of that attention,is doubtful.

But,once it landed in his lap,he took to it like a duck to water.

It was John Lennon,who said :

''Life is what happens to you,when you are busy making other plans.''

Zodiac's new found life was,indeed,the liberation of a sadist.

KayElleSF

3/4/2018 07:15:01 pm

Yep, Rubi, it was fertile times for Zodiac to blossom (terrible word) into a wretched media whore.

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 10:57:43 pm

He did strive for attention by writing letters to the newspapers though, and he demanded they publish this and that. The sad thing is that they did just as he asked. So what came first, the chicken or the egg? Hmmm. Methinks he had a touch of Prima donna media whore about him from the outset. He was an egotist from day one. The media merely served up an extra helping of ego for him on a silver platter.

Judith N Chapman

3/4/2018 08:39:58 pm

Yes a terrorist. Very fascinating insight regarding whether or not he figured someone would survive to describe the costume. There was a lot of planning that went into it. I understand Psychopaths get a lot of pleasure out of the planning the stalking the rituals in the preparations. My feeling is that he looked for people who were acting out in a immoral sexual way in his eyes, either through premarital sex or perhaps homo sexual advances.

Ray Jenkins

3/4/2018 11:11:32 pm

I agree entirely Judith. The Zodiac was clearly not Dennis Rader, but I think he thought in a very similar way to Rader. I think he kind of thought himself as an executioner. As his correspondence suggests, he did also have torture fantasies. Instilling fear in others played a big part in his M.O., and what better way to instill fear than to wear an elaborate Medieval-like executioner's outfit. Scare the couple into complete dumbfounded submission, then bind and stab them repeatedly? A lot of people think the Zodiac was all abut killing quickly. For the most part this is true, but the Zodiac was all over the place as a serial killer. He changed everything about his crimes from one attack to the next. It is almost like he thought "I did that last time. Now for something new and different!" He wanted to keep everybody guessing, and that was in itself a part of the fear aspect!

One time he would use a gun, the next time ropes and knives. We do not know if he ever used fire on a victim, but he certainly did threaten to use it in his correspondence. The Zodiac is a difficult serial killer to pin down. He was capable of change and it would not surprise me in the least if he occasionally incorporated such things as torture and he may even have practiced some sexual deviancy as he progressed and became more confident. He is thought to have collected some small "trophies" from his victims. I know that some people will not have a bar of this, but I think the Zodiac was a far more complex killer than many believe he was. I guess people just like to simplify and compartmentalize such things as it makes the whole case easier to generalize about and to mentally digest.

I always wonder, did the Zodiac feign an attempt to proposition Stine sexually? The wrong answer meant an instant bullet. I guess we will never know.

Judith

3/5/2018 06:26:44 am

Yes it is why Paul Stein didn't fit the criteria of a young couple having premarital sex in my opinion. My own suspect was the child of a mother who sexually abused little boys. He had secret homosexual relationships for life. While presenting to the world he was straight. In the 1960s they were still arresting people and putting them in jail in the San Francisco Bay area for being gay. Having sex before marriage was still very taboo as well in the 1960s until the summer of love. So lots of sexual angst. All killings were justified in the Killer's mind. Jealousy and hatred.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/5/2018 08:05:40 am

Your suspect does seem to be a very psychologically damaged person,Judith.

You must have had to put up with some terrible experiences,yourself [?].

Indeed,the sodomy laws were not decriminalised in California,until circa 1977.For the ''States'' as a whole....they range from Chicago,circa 1963....to Texas,circa 2003.

Some 40 years,for the whole of the U.S.A.

In the U.K.,decriminalisation was 1967.

Yes,it does appear that the ''counter culture'' came about in San Francisco...through largely an influx of ''middle class kids'' that left home,without shoes on their feet,and certainly no money in their pockets.

I can well understand that there was a core ''staid'' population,that had no great aspirations to ''tune in and drop out''.

Perhaps unfair,but sometimes one can't help feeling that the tale of the Zodiac,reads like the one eyed giant in the land of the blind [?].

He appears to have done,whatever he wished....apart from persuade the newspapers to issue those ''bless-ed'' buttons [?].

Connolly

3/14/2018 07:47:16 pm

Check out the disgusting rapist turned serial killer Dean Corll

Detectives did find documents and pornograghic material in Corll's house, which they further investigated. An individual by the name of John D. Norman created an org. in Dallas known as the Odyssey Foundation. Some of the material found in Corll's home was from Odyssey. The foundation, essentially a pedophile ring, had a reported 50,000 members who paid subscriptions to procure young boys for sex. They would receive nude photos of the boys, along with personal details. Norman was busted in 1973... in prison he started a newsletter with a new foundation to replace to replace Odyssey, this one called Delta.
Youtube - Programed to Kill 90
Playboy made its debut in 1954 with others - very nasty soon coming out. Our culture had to change too fast from the sexually repressed 50's to the freedom of the 60's.
I don't know if it caused anybody to kill - but you got to wonder. Looking at Programed to Kill 86 That picture is the exact described Scene in Bill Blatty's notes. The Exocist was edited in the Park Avenue 666 building. Programed to Kill 76 is the scariest. So many of these SK's make snuff fims. The Zodiac had to of degenerated into more and more depravity. Unless there was a legal disruption in the case of some kind.

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