QUESTION MARKS OVER THE EXORCIST LETTER ???

10/16/2018

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I have just finished reading 'The Hunt for Zodiac: The Inconceivable Double Life of a Notorious Serial Killer' by Zodiac researcher Mike Rodelli. While I don't agree with everything in the book, it is an extremely well researched and informative addition to the Zodiac Killer story, even if you don't arrive at the same conclusions on the murderer's identity. For beginners and seasoned veterans alike, it will not disappoint as a comprehensive introduction to the case, as well as a complimentary addition to any existing knowledge you may already have. While fresh in my mind, I would like to explore one important feature of the book, regarding the topic of DNA, which is currently hanging over the case like a dose of skeptical optimism..

Mike tackles this problem in extensive detail, particularly with regards to the viability of the DNA tests conducted by Dr. Cydne Holt in the 2002 ABC Primetime documentary, in addition to his discussions with Alan Keel, Criminalist at the San Francisco Police Department, San Francisco, California from 1996 to 1999.

The disputed results of the 2002 'showpiece' are now well documented, however, Mike delves further into the DNA analysis with respect to two later 'Zodiac' letters, namely the 1974 'Exorcist' letter and the subsequent 1978 'I Am Back With You' letter, both mailed after a lengthy silence from the Zodiac Killer - leading some to question their authenticity.

Mike recalls information of his conversation with Alan Keel: "In contrast (to earlier communications), Keel analyzes two other letters, one of which is the 1978 forgery, and finds that this letter and one of the 1974 letters are loaded with saliva and cells. He then easily extracts DNA from both of these letters using the more primitive DNA technology of that time and finds that the DNA matches between those two letters, thus proving that one person sent both."

This is a stunning revelation (if correct) when we consider the findings of the San Francisco Police Department laboratory in the 1990s, in which there was a notable absence of saliva/DNA present on the envelopes prior to the 1974 'Exorcist' letter. Would a killer who seemingly didn't lick any of his envelopes or stamps throughout the majority of his letter-writing campaign, now suddenly break that habit in the 1974 and 1978 communications? The SFPD report, shown here, references the April 24th 1978 letter, claiming that the "DNA SAMPLE OBTAINED - NOT AUTHENTIC ZODIAC LETTER".

This lack of saliva or DNA on the earlier letters may have become more evident, as Dr..Cydne Holt struggled to generate any tangible results from the sealed sections of stamps and envelopes using more advanced forensic DNA testing in 2002, compared to the earlier and more primitive testing undertaken in the 1990s. This apparent dichotomy brings into stark reality the essence of Mike Rodelli's argument.

The bold statement of "DNA sample obtained- not authentic Zodiac letter" opens up the proverbial can of worms. On first reading, it gives the impression that they have something to compare it to. How would they know the DNA sample obtained from the 1978 letter was not from Zodiac, if they didn't have Zodiac's DNA? If they had Zodiac's DNA in the 1990s, this wasn't the impression given by the search for Zodiac DNA in the 2002 ABC Primetime documentary.

"DNA sample obtained- not authentic Zodiac letter" could imply they know the sex of the DNA present on the 1978 letter, and therefore by extension, not the Zodiac Killer (as suggested on many forums). But, it could imply they know the identity of the individual who contributed the DNA to the 1978 letter, and having identified that individual, know they were not the Zodiac Killer. This lack of clarity has led Zodiac researchers to question the transparency of the San Francisco Police Department.

We know that a partial DNA profile from a letter can exclude suspects, but not definitively identify an individual. Therefore, the apparent (but unconfirmed) revelation of Alan Keel that "DNA matches between" one of the 1974 letters (possibly the 'Exorcist' letter) and 1978 'I Am Back With You' letter, would suggest that full DNA profiles have been obtained for both letters.
If only a partial DNA profile had been obtained from the 1978 letter (much like the exclusion of suspects) it can only be excluded as matching a profile from the 'Exorcist' letter (if this had a full DNA profile), but not definitively matched to it.
As such, the statement of "DNA matches between those two letters, thus proving that one person sent both", would be indicative of a full DNA profile obtained from both the 1974 and 1978 letters in the 1990s..

For those who believe the 'Exorcist' letter to be genuine Zodiac correspondence, then this could imply that a full DNA profile may exist for this letter (or one of the 'lesser' 1974 letters), and consequently the profile of the Zodiac Killer. However, the search for Zodiac's DNA in 2002 negates this premise - unless the San Francisco Police Department knew all along that both the 'Exorcist'/74 letter and 1978 letter were not mailed by the Zodiac Killer. In fact, the Exorcist and April 24th 1978 letters were the only two communications mentioned with regards to the controversy surrounding Inspector David Toschi, who led the investigation for many years. He came under suspicion for forging the 1978 letter, after the San Francisco Chronicle columnist and author, Armistead Maupin, discovered that David Toschi had mailed fictitious fan mail to a series he had written, with the inclusion of the detective.

Armistead Maupin had first met David Toschi in 1976 while he was writing the 'Tales of the City' series. Wanting to energize the series with a murder mystery element, he contacted San Francisco Chronicle reporter Bob Popp, who then introduced him to David Toschi. The police inspector would make a debut appearance in 'Tales of the City' on September 10th that year, with a character based on his attributes. Further episodes would follow under his real name, as a friend and confidant to Armistead Maupin's fictitious Detective Inspector Henry Tandy.

Inspector David Toschi

Here is an excerpt from the San Francisco Chronicle, published on July 14th 1978 "Police officials are investigating the possibility that Inspector David Toschi forged a Zodiac letter in The Chronicle in 1974 as well as a similar letter the newspaper received earlier this year. Toschi - who said he was interrogated officially last Friday about both letters - has denied writing any letters in the guise of Zodiac, the killer of six who eluded capture by Toschi for nearly nine years before the detective was transferred out of the homicide detail last week. Deputy Clement DeAmicis, who had recommended the transfer to Chief Charles Gain, confirmed yesterday the probe was being extended".

The fact that Inspector David Toschi was questioned regarding these two communications, only heightens the mystery surrounding Alan Keel's statement of "the DNA matches between those two letters, thus proving that one person sent both" and the San Francisco Police Department's report concerning the 1978 letter, in which it noted that a "DNA sample was obtained, but indicated it was not an authentic Zodiac letter".

We don't know for certain that Alan Keel is referring to the 'Exorcist' letter when he stated "one of which is the 1978 forgery, and finds that this letter and one of the 1974 letters are loaded with saliva and cells". However, since the 'Exorcist' letter for the large part has been widely regarded as the last confirmed correspondence mailed by the Zodiac Killer, as opposed to the other 1974 communications, it would be the logical correspondence to test for Zodiac Killer DNA when searching for the Bay Area murderer. Testing the other much more questionable 1974 mailings would not make as much sense - which is probably why the San Francisco Police Department report is blank or omitted next to these communications.

The 'go to' mailing, when testing for Zodiac DNA from the 1974 letters, would undoubtedly be the 'Exorcist' letter rather than its dubious companions. So, if this was the case and the statement of Alan Keel were true, then the 'Exorcist' mailing would not be an authentic Zodiac correspondence - and as a result - would quite possibly shrink the Zodiac reign by nearly three years.

Drew

10/16/2018 01:33:17 pm

Great post Richard! These anecdotes relayed by Mike have had me scratching my head for some time. Two things trouble me about accepting that Toschi wrote the 1978 letter though. If SFPD has known since 69/70 that the Zodiac letters did not contain saliva (apparently saliva tests were done back then) then surely Toschi as a hoaxer would be aware of this and seal the envelopes with tap water. I also find it very difficult to believe that Maupin correctly identified tonal consistencies between the fan letters and the 1978 letter. I guess I should re-read those fan letters to try to see what it is he observed in them. At any rate it certainly is one of the big mysteries of the case!
cheers

Richard

10/16/2018 02:22:27 pm

Hi Drew, nice to see you back. Certainly, it may be unlikely Toschi wrote the 1978 letter, but it is extremely odd the SFPD declared this letter not Zodiac based on DNA, when they didn't have Zodiac's DNA.
I know Zodiac is an odd character, but isn't it odd that he supposedly can't spell Avery, but Toschi, which is undeniably more difficult, he spells perfectly, along with Caen.

If I were an educated forger, with respect to Zodiac, I would make sure my letter had elements of Zodiac, without looking like a regurgitation of old Zodiac phrases. The Exorcist letter begins by mentioning the Exorcist film, featured in a recent San Francisco Chronicle article by Paul Avery. It then refers to the Mikado again, and finishes in rather a menacing tone, not unlike the July 31st 69 letters. It contains no intro and no crosshairs , but a running total.
The reference to Me 37 SFPD is also unusual. I certainly would have changed some components of the letter, but not all, if I was trying to convince I was Zodiac. Having said that it would have been 3 years for the real Zodiac, so you might expect variation anyway. I have always looked at the handwriting and tone of the Exorcist as genuine, but the palm print is the odd feature- surely the Zodiac after writing numerous letters wouldn't be so foolish as to leave a palm print slap bang in the middle of the letter, but then again neither would Toschi, unless either got an unsuspecting person to handle the letter. To me, the handwriting on the 1978 letter looks convincing, but given a few days Drew, I bet you or I could generate a convincing Zodiac letter. It's a strange one.

Drew

10/16/2018 08:53:47 pm

It's nice to be back Richard! Discussing spelling and spit no less!

The poor spelling throughout the zodiac correspondences seems like a ruse to me as does most of the content he included. I think he may have been a genuinely poor speller, or at least a poor speller for a code writer aware of letter usage frequencies, but his errors are over the top and seem stylized, forced and systematic (such as leaving e in before ing most but not all the time, unnecessary double letters, omitting letters). The inconsistencies are suspicious (paterned/patterned, cyipher/cipher), seemingly sarcastic (help me I'm drownding, christmass, it just wouldn't doo, woeman), unconvincingly bad (cid, frunt page, couple of howers), nonsensical (im platt), and occasionally he spelled like a competent adult (uncompromising, bouncing, delicious, radian).

I believe he made an effort to seem as though he spelled phonetically, but I think if he was as bad a speller as he appears, as earnest as his occasional corrections imply, and as egotistical as we're sure he was, he could have just consulted a dictionary to avoid seeming near illiterate. Unlike the lyrics to the Mikado, names like Herb Caen, Paul Avery, and Toschi were likely in print in front of him as he or the hoaxer wrote so I think he was being deliberate when he misspelled Averly just to be disrespectful. The fact that the author of the 78 letter didn't do this could well be a red flag.

The bad spelling in the 408 I think was as strategic as his choice of dividing it in three and leaving filler at the end. It's hard to imagine someone composing such seemingly sloppy text and then switching key codes for the last line in hopes that someone would persevere and figure it out. I like the idea of him including zodiac killer at the end but I can't see him switching key codes to do it. Like the idea of anagramming, he would have no confidence that his message would ever be discerned. This may not be the popular view but I think the 408 was designed to communicate rather than mystify, which is what I think the 340 was intended to do.

From the start I believe zodiac was developing a 'maniac' character and that his techniques and all of his disparate references were in service of this misdirection. Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in that theory for me though is that Hartnell (who is clearly very bright) thought his attacker seemed nervous and dimwitted whereas Presidio Heights zodiac was clearly a cool customer.

The Exorcist letter omitting the zodiac sign seems authentic to me. I feel like a hoaxer would have added the crosshairs to ensure his message came across and didn't get dismissed or misinterpreted after so many years of zodiac silence. If any of the 74 letters are legit it makes the return of the crosshairs on the 78 letter seem very suspicious to me. The 74 letters are cocky and threatening while the 78 letter seems desperate.

If we could say for sure that the canonical letters had no prints and no saliva then we could be certain that the 74s and the rest are bunk (assuming that the later letters did have prints and spit). In light of how the letters were handled and stored, could the police ever be certain of this? On what basis could they be certain of authenticity for any of those that didn't include a shirt piece? It seems doubtful that handwriting alone would lead them to such conclusions. If they had a confession from Toschi that would make some sense. Exposing him would look awful for the department so pawn shop detail could have been viewed as a politically sensible option... but then a decade passes and they use the Exorcist palm print to compare to their prime suspect? Zodiac either wore gloves and used an alternative to licking his stamps for every letter he wrote or he was never so careful. I can't imagine an in between. For some reason he was entirely confident sending them copious amounts of writing samples. Whatever the answer is, I find it hard to believe that the police are as perplexed as us about it.

At any rate this is a great discussion and I look forward to reading what everyone has to say, even Rubislaw!

Nobody

10/16/2018 09:16:32 pm

One thing we can be certain of is this. If Manson and his wretched bunch of misfits ever had anything to do with the copycat letters that were sent out to threaten violence in the name of Zodiac, their letters will be soaked with all kinds of nastiness. Be it spit, semen, excrement, hand and foot prints, urine, hair (possibly even the pubic kind), vomit, dandruff, sweat, blood, various alcohol and drug residues, and dirt. I can guarantee it will all be there, warts and all. One thing they will not find is anything matching the true Zodiac.

Nobody

10/16/2018 09:39:41 pm

Hi Drew, I agree with everything that you say except for this bit. "Hartnell (who is clearly very bright) thought his attacker seemed nervous and dimwitted."

Where did you read that?. Hartnell related that he was a very imposing and dominating figure and he was not going to argue or attempt to resist him once he knew the guy meant business. He never said he was dimwitted. He said he was very "low class" and sloppily dressed - low class in his voice and the tight pleated pants he was wearing made him look sloppy. He described him as not very intelligent but not a complete dimwit either - just "very low class".

Drew

10/17/2018 09:32:42 am

You are right about Hartnell's comments Nobody. Dimwit was my word not his. You made a good point about the Manson family too. I can believe that they would forge one of these letters but they would definitely be filthy!

Nobody

10/16/2018 02:48:38 pm

It makes perfect sense that there should be copycats!

For one such "cat", look no further than a certain Manson follower. Her handwriting was always a freakishly close match for the Zodiac. I have no doubt that she could have easily emulated his tone and style.

There are significant differences in the handwriting and grammar if you look.

Richard

10/16/2018 02:55:27 pm

Rubislaw, if you contend the 1978 letter is genuine Zodiac material, then at a bare minimum they have a partial DNA profile of the killer from the licked envelope (possibly full profile). Even if it's a partial DNA profile, then they should have had the ability to start eliminating suspects in the 1990s, including Arthur Leigh Allen, but they didn't. They were still searching for a partial DNA profile at a bare minimum in the 2002 ABC Primetime documentary. This suggests that the DNA profile they had from the 1978 letter was not Zodiac - corroborated by the statement on the SFPD report.

Richard

10/16/2018 03:06:04 pm

Declaring the 1978 letter not authentic Zodiac material in the 1990s based on just their opinion of the handwriting and tone of the letter, and consequently just brushing off the DNA sample obtained as irrelevant based upon a subjective interpretation of the letter would not be an option, and furthermore reckless in the extreme.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/16/2018 03:43:46 pm

Indeed Richard,its the April one,that I never been overly convinced about.Though its content could be an ''intro'' to the May one,then the July one.

Although its perhaps immaterial to this topic,Zodiac's ''longing'' was to ''buddy up'' to newspaper men,like Herb Caen,who was like ''God'' to him.Individual cops,meant nothing to him.

Its possible that the April 1978 letter,was from a Toschi fan,who wanted to make Toschi feel that he,Toschi,meant something to Zodiac [?].

Richard

10/16/2018 04:01:55 pm

If we take Alan Keel at face value that a 1974 letter (but not the Exorcist letter) and 1978 letter matched and therefore were mailed by the same person, then where does SFPD's confidence come from, in determining that the 1978 letter is not authenticated Zodiac material on this basis alone. If the 1978 and Exorcist letter matched, then their case for declaring the 1978 not authentic weakens even further. They must surely have identified the source of the DNA and are reluctant to reveal that person's identity. Alan Keel was a criminalist at the San Francisco Police Department, so I would like to believe he is correct. If not, then my argument falls flat on its face.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/16/2018 04:15:26 pm

It can become really quite complicated,figuring out,if there was,perhaps,a ''regular hoaxer'',in the mix of all the high profile correspondences,both authenticated officially,or otherwise.

My general take is,that Morrill,although the best of the document examiners,had a lot of ''so called'' Zodiac mail,coming at him,at times.

I believe that the Bates correspondence was from the man who became the Zodiac.But that whole episode over its authentication,turned down,must have left a bitter taste in Morrill's mouth.

So,we move forward to 1978,and Morrill may have,albeit part time,and in retirement....called it initially wrong....then when the April 1978 one was called into question over the fan mail scandal,one can imagine Morrill seeing ''Deja Vu'',and clinging on to his initial belief,having already ''given way'' in the past,on the Bates correspondence.

Just an angle,on explanation,perhaps [?].

Nobody

10/16/2018 05:10:32 pm

It's 69-71 for me, then "end of communication". No point in prolonging the legend

Judith

10/16/2018 09:55:34 pm

All I know is that Peter used to quote from The Exorcist letter frequently.
At the time I had no idea what he was talking about. Why would somebody say that the "Exorcist" was a satirical comedy?

RTF

10/17/2018 12:46:28 am

Hi Judith. There's plenty of satire if you think about an entertainment film being about a kid - Regan, who's seriously unwell - so, her mom calls in a priest!

Think of the idea of the priest coming out of Regan's room. The kid is all beat up and has been tied up and there bodily fluid everywhere. And the priest tells the mom... "the kid's possessed"!

Yeah, right!

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 06:18:40 am

Welcome back Drew.

Yes Judith,as I presume,I agree with you on the authenticity,of the Exorcist letter.As I have expressed in the past,it is the final page of a longer letter,so we are,perhaps,not experiencing the ''full impact'',of a Zodiac return.

Indeed Richard,I am close to rejecting the April 1978 letter,authentic.

The May 1978,''Channel Nine'' letter could have been Zodiac's ''real'' return.I have never been comfortable about what the scribe of that letter,says about Pat Boone.As if the writer was inferring that he had been ''somewhere else in the world'',to know what the rest of the world thought about Pat Boone.

But,of course,this about letter content,over possible forensics links,or none.

I am going back to the postage stamps ''angle'',to have another look.

One of AKWilks very good contributions,to an important part of Zodiac correspondences.

Drew

10/17/2018 11:02:43 am

Hi Rubislaw, I have never heard the theory that the Exorcist letter had more unseen pages. Is it just speculation? What have you got?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 11:41:27 am

Hi Drew.

I have nothing....I suppose,if anyone had something,then there wouldn't be a mystery.

What might we define the ''mystery'' as ?

More particularly,I would suggest is,that the scribe appears to move in with : ''I saw and think the Exorcist....''.

Zodiac tended to like to celebrate himself,from the outset....more usually with : ''This is the Zodiac speaking..''.

And,its not as if that single page,looks like anything other,than part of a letter.....as opposed to ''just'' a note,for example.

Recently,I found newspaper archive evidence that,the authorities,held back the second bomb diagram letter page....probably so as not to scare people,at that time.

But when the Zodiac started asking about it,in future letters,culminating in the ''June 26th 1970'' letter,bringing up the specific subject of ''School Buss''.....then the authorities,presumably,had no option,but to publish the bomb diagram page,that they had previously held back.

This subject,of the true length of the Exorcist letter,I would suggest,is the most pertinent question,regarding it,specifically,of all.

The Exorcist letter,is after all,authenticated officially,and therefore ''probably'' carries forensic support,to its correspondence category.

Drew

10/17/2018 12:47:47 pm

It is curious that the letter appears to begin with the possibly Ripper inspired 'yours truly' sign off, but because he substitutes the Zodiac symbol for 'me' at the end though I am less inclined to believe that an opening page with a 'This is the Zodiac speaking' opening exists. Other than the Pines card which retained the symbol he hadn't used his moniker since the LA Letter so it seems to me that he had retired his character.

As far as the idea of the police holding back on further Exorcist material though, that sounds possible. They didn't print the 'cops pulled a goof' portion of the November 69 letter despite Zodiac's demand and indeed they did hold back on the November 69 bomb threat as well until a couple of days after the 'Blast' threat on April 28 70. As an aside I have long thought that the still unsolved San Francisco 'Satan Saves Zodiac' murder of Robert Salem a week or so prior to that may also have been a factor in their decision to appease him. Considering how far-fetched the diagramed plans seemed it is hard to believe that they actually took him seriously as a bomber, but then again I don't know the first thing about explosives or the political pressure they may have been facing.

Do you have an opinion about why the 78 letter was dismissed by authorities as a forgery after its initial acceptance? Sorry if you have already stated your views on this, I'm still catching up on the recent conversations.

Judith

10/17/2018 06:47:35 am

The content of The Exorcist movie is up for critical debate. The point I was making was that Peter was quoting from this letter years after it had been written. He married for the first time to me on May 20th 1978 I believe the May 1978 letter is also his. Peter hated Pat Boone, why I don't know. He also hated Daryl Gates the LA chief of police, why I don't know. We were living in Northern California.
He hated Melvin Belli, why I don't know. He hated Herb Caen, why I don't know. He seethed verbally over these people whenever they came on television. Loud name calling. F Pat Boone. F Herb Caen. And so on. I wonder what Pat Boone did or said to piss him off?

Gaspar

10/17/2018 09:40:51 am

Have you ever listened to any Pat Boone?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 01:13:06 pm

Yes,Drew...on the matter of the April 1978 letter,it remains,officially ''authenticated'',but ''politically'' dead in the water.

The review order on the letter,produced 3 undecided,and Morrill sticking to his guns,as the letter being authentic.

With those three other document examiners,having moved from a position of ''positive'' to ''undecided'',the general ''press'' view was that the ''three'' had been coerced into changing their view,to tarnish the image of the letter,at the behest of the authorities.But the authorities weren't going to dismiss,out of hand,the letter's authenticity,either.

Between a rock and a hard place....and inevitably a public relations nightmare over ''authentication'' generally.Hence,presumably,no correspondences after this were ''aired in public'' for a decision to be made on authentication,again.

40 years on,and uncertainty over any and all correspondences,post April 1978.

Poor Toschi.

Drew

10/17/2018 02:03:29 pm

Although both seemed to exhibit some arrogant/irresponsible tendencies I too put a lot of stock in the character of Morrill and Toschi, or at least I don't believe either consciously attempted to harm the progress of the case. Authentic or not though I don't think any of the 74 or 78 letters should have been published.

It is weird that the FBI document declares so definitively that the 78 letter is not Zodiac (how could they have determined this?) considering that law enforcement used the DNA they obtained from the 78 letter and the palm print from Exorcist to test against Allen. I'm not wrong that those were the tests done am I? So either the FBI are correct that the 78 is a forgery (because they obtained a hoaxer confession or female DNA result from it) and those tests were pointless or they do believe they have Zodiac's DNA (from the 78 and presumably Exorcist) and have yet to match it to anyone. Do you believe there was a political gain in denouncing the 78 results in that FBI report? As far as I know it was not made public until Tom Voigt managed to get his hands on it.

Nobody

10/17/2018 04:12:53 pm

"Theocratic crap" was a very accurate description. :)

Judith

10/17/2018 10:10:08 pm

Hahaha

OCINAZ

10/18/2018 01:12:59 pm

Or liked Daryl Gates? His policies of militarization of the LAPD are well known and one of the first.

Judith

10/17/2018 06:52:52 am

Failure to run any DNA results for the GED match system at this point would be Paramount to negligence on behalf of law enforcement

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 02:40:51 pm

Yes,Drew,I agree with respect to Toschi and Morrill.Two of the most ''earnest'' players,in the whole Zodiac opera.With Narlow,perhaps along side them.Three ''sane'' individuals in an often apparent ''sea of madness''.

Aspects,such as you have just discussed,can make one dizzy,in the end,considering all possible scenarios [?].

We must just try to understand,the best we can.A high profile criminal case,that dragged on,in the end,for years.With some,perhaps,coming to the fore,that thought they knew better,than those that had come,before them.

With every unsolved case,there is usually a litany of ''failures'',often expensive,and damaging to the future chances of the case.

50 years ? Much expense and damage.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 03:04:57 pm

On the matter of DNA,Drew,many look around for specific sources.

I believe it is just not worth those specific considerations.Zodiac,I believe,remained a compulsive writer,and although not a prolific killer,did kill ''a few more'',after 1969.

The authorities have more than enough DNA,and have known his profile for a number of years.The ''match up'' though,just in the last two years,with suspicions of that match up,just a further two years before.

But,conviction is ''everything'',and no arrest will be made,until confidence that a conviction,can be achieved.

Justice isn't ''fairness''.But,it's the best that a civilised society can offer itself.

10/18/2018 09:33:57 am

Rubislaw 32
Ronald W. Hughes was an American attorney who represented Charles Manson. Hughes disappeared while on a camping trip during a ten-day recess from the Tate-LaBianca murder trial in November 1970. His body was found in March 1971, but his cause of death could not be determined. Wikipedia
I think the 50 years of going unsolved could be because of things like this attorney Hughes going missing. What do you think?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 06:56:56 am

That's an interesting coincidence,on May 1978.

The way you put it,it doesn't seems as if Peter liked anyone [?].

Well,he must have liked you [!].

I've just had another look at that letter.For content,one of ''presumed'' Zodiac's most entertaining.

I wrote an article,somewhere,on the use of ''Gona'' in that letter.

I know that ''Gona'' appears in the Benicia High School Note.

I'll have to check again,where else.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/18/2018 11:10:04 am

Fascinating story,BB,regarding the disappearance of Ronald Hughes.

I will look into that story,in more detail,out at least great curiosity.

Of course,your question sparks an interest,in me [!].

And I can only tell it,the way I see it.

There are two main reasons,why the Zodiac was never apprehended,closer to the time of his campaign.

The first was the Law Enforcement politics.When the FBI joined the case,in July 1969,''we'' then saw a ''two fold'' investigation develop,which should never have happened.

The CA DOJ and the FBI,as one investigation team,if you will.

The CA DOJ and Bay Area police forces,as the other investigation team.

In retrospect,''pure madness'',with responsibility naturally,on the shoulders of the guardians of the case,the CA DOJ,for allowing this situation,to have arisen.

I stand by my belief that,the single most important factor in Zodiac evading capture,were his residency circumstances.

His primary home,being in greater L.A.,or even closer to the SF vicinity,such as Bakersfield.

His ''work base'' home,being in Vallejo.And,he moved between the two [ Bakersfield and Vallejo [?] ],regularly,

But the most telling factor,regarding his accommodation circumstances,was his length of '' semi-permanent '' stay,in Vallejo.

This information,I believe,is largely contained on page 293,of Lafferty's book ''The Silenced Badge'',which gives details of an unknown man's library habits,at both the JFK Library in Vallejo,and the Civic Library,in Fairfield.

In examining those ''habits'',it would not be difficult to assume that the Zodiac,was,in all probability,a local resident,between early 1968,and early 1970.

Just,and only......two years.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/18/2018 03:03:23 pm

Just read up on Ronald Hughes,BB.

He ended up defending Manson clan member,Leslie Van Houten,only,and sought to present a defence case,that mitigated her,on the basis that she was entirely brainwashed,by Manson.

Manson was trying to encourage all members,in the dock,to admit that they acted on their own accords,therefore strengthening a case for Manson,that he was blameless.

Hence Ronald Hughes was thought to be a ''marked man'',with his defence argument,effectively,pointing all the blame with Manson

His hiking death,an accident or murder ?

But,of course,this only holds relevance to the Zodiac case,if there was a Manson link to Zodiac.

Personally,the only Manson link,for me,is the coincidence of the Tate LaBianca murders,coming at the same time,as the Zodiac's public humiliation,at the hands of the Hardens,and their solution of his ''408'' cipher,being published.

It just strengthened the Zodiac's resolve to be taken more seriously,and ensure that the Tate LaBianca murders,didn't ''blow him off the front pages'' for newsworthy stories.

10/18/2018 03:43:11 pm

smart work 32
you re a quick study

Nobody

10/18/2018 05:57:26 pm

There are other peculiar links to the Zodiac, especially in the symbols they occasionally shared. The "X" his followers cut into their foreheads as a sign of devotion almost exactly mirrors the crossed "Sorry no cipher" message in one of the Zodiac's letters. There are other uncanny coincidences too. Whether they are purely coincidental or they were intended as a "clew" to a link, however tenuous, is still unknown.

I personally think the Zodiac saw Manson as little more than an insect, although at times he must have seemed like an irritating tick in his backside that he would have loved to extricate and squash.

Ronald W. Hughes: "his cause of death could not be determined", so "gotta be sumpin' suspectus there, eh Cletus?!"

The "official" report states that Hughes had gone camping and got caught in a powerful rainstorm. There were witnesses in the same area who stated they had nearly been stranded too. The creek swelled dangerously in a very short space of time and Hughes died either because he drowned or because he was battered to death by debris and rocks. Basically it was a "flash flood" event. He was hit by some debris, lost consciousness and drowned and drifted down the river quite a long way. There was nothing else to indicate otherwise. The medical examiner couldn't come to any other conclusions. There did not seem to be any clear evidence of foul play given the circumstances of an intense deluge at the time. It was sheer luck that others were not also drowned that day.

But of course this being the official report, it will never be good enough to satisfy those who seek greater mysteries.

10/19/2018 10:06:48 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUIzS3HjPwg

Are we all tits on the same sow?

Alan Wilson Watts (6 January 1915 – 16 November 1973) was a British philosopher. He defined everything better than anyone I have ever heard. He lectured at and gained a large following in the San Francisco Bay Area while working as a volunteer programmer at KPFA, a Pacifica Radio station in Berkeley From Wikipedia.

Pantanjali

10/19/2018 04:52:22 pm

How does popularist Westernized Zen philosophy "fit" with the Zodiac?

I think Z was reared on a different "sow" entirely.

10/19/2018 06:07:58 pm

Pantanjali while at the time Alan Wilson Watts who interpreted and popularized Eastern philosophy for a Western audience. In that time and place that the Zodiac was bursting forth with a massive big bang of ego. The two opposite men in the same time and place - Irony? This man Watts at the top of the top - daily crossing paths with the bottom dweller Zodiac. I think Z felt alienated. He was not responsible, in his mind, for his being born. He blamed his victims.

Pantanjali

10/20/2018 12:46:11 am

Possible I guess, but my personal feeling - if the Zodiac even cared enough to know who Watts was, he would have viewed him as an inconsequential bug on his windshield. He had plenty of room to move in sociological-cultural domains well away from such people. He would perhaps have been the sort of person who would have included Watts on his "little list" if he had bothered him sufficiently - someone he despised but who in his mind would "not be missed". I doubt if Zodiac had much time for intellectuals or alternative life-stylers who preached their new "religions" to others. His letters how that he was willing to embrace some aspects of the popular culture when it suited him. But whenever he poked fun at various things or people, it was often difficult to tell if he loved them or loathed them, e.g. Belli. For a serial killer who was potentially a psychopath, what would have really meant to him to "like" or "love" somebody else? Perhaps on some inner level he may have secretly admired those he killed, while loathing them at the same time. I am not sure that he ever blamed his victims for being born. He blamed them for killing, but that was because they were there and, in his mind, he was too smart to be caught. It seems to be more a case that he loved the fact his victims had been born at the right place and time so that their paths would cross with his at a later time in life and he could kill them. He possibly thought of it as a game of fate and if they were there at the right place and time when he was in the mood to kill well "bad luck for them".

10/20/2018 12:08:12 pm

That is not what I said Pantanjali - Also, I would appreciate it if you would pick a name and stick to it. I am confused when people are uncertain brokers and they don't keep a name. You can be anonymous that is fine. But it is not fair to Richard and his viewers to keep changing names. I don't know if I am addressing somebody or if I'm talking to nobody. You can ask others if you think my request is wrong - Thank You - I look foreword to hearing from you.
PS. I think part of the problems is - I am a slow reader. While it looks to me like you read too fast. My writings are meant to be read in a plotting cadence. Perhaps we can chalk it up to the o'l different strokes thing. Peace.

Judith

10/17/2018 07:11:57 am

Peter mostly loved Peter.
He showed a lot of love to a lot of people and they loved that. Me myself I relate to victims who were held prisoner. I was not allowed to stay out after Dark. If I went to the grocery store I was accused of having sex with grocery store employees. I was told that if I ever did have an affair on him, he wouldn't hurt me, "but I'll kill that MF" I was told if I ever left him he would find me and kill me. And when I did leave him, he hired a private investigator to stalk me and left numerous death threats on my phone message machines. I guess you could say he hardly loved me.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/17/2018 07:38:40 am

He must surely have hated himself,Judith [?].

Too many ''skeletons in the cupboard'',to contemplate [?].

From what you recount,it's amazing you put up with his complicated mind,for so long.

On a brighter note,I have,by claim,solved both ''S1'' and ''S5'',and will be posting the solutions,at zodiackillermystery.freeforums.net shortly.

Scorpion's final cipher [...circa mid 90's...],is,I have found,to be a ''tour de force'' in vulgarity [!].

Scorpion [Zodiac [?]],manages to insult hermaphrodites,gays,university students,and the NYPD,in just a few lines of text.

Probably quite amusing,if you like ''Beavis and Butt-head '' [?].

A little ''bonus'',perhaps,is that,the term ''Fag Fee'' emerges,in subliminal form.

The Halloween Card,back to haunt us,again [?].

Nobody

10/17/2018 04:52:13 pm

I have no doubt the Beavis and Butt-head fraternity will be enthralled. ;)

Nobody

10/18/2018 06:13:08 pm

Does anybody know where I can download/copy/steal an ASCII text file for the Scorpio ciphers? One in which the symbols have been converted to numbers or letters would be ideal. That would save me a whole heap of time.
These ciphers do not appear to be homophonic to me. Possibly some kind of complex Vigenère ciphers. If homophonic I am guessing they will have been randomized in some way to prevent easy decryption, otherwise we can only expect "drunken" solutions if they are taken literally.

KayElleSF

10/17/2018 04:03:14 pm

Very enlightening post, Richard! So well written as always.

Nobody

10/17/2018 04:38:32 pm

+1.
I really don't know how he turns this great stuff out with such regularity. Does he ever get any sleep? :)

Nobody

10/17/2018 04:37:07 pm

Peter sounds like he loved himself but could not tolerate any person who had differing ideas, opinions, appearance, education, mannerisms, you name it. He was basically an extreme misanthropist, or a Timinist. He would have expected his family to share his views and would have been extremely intolerant of anybody who disagreed with his way of seeing the world. He would have been "right" and everybody else "wrong" and "stupid".

Although he did not always care how he looked in terms of dress, he was also perhaps narcissistic of his own mind and ways of thinking.

He often saw himself as a fiercely independent, self-made man who was akin to something of an outdoors survivalist. To his own crowd of friends he may have been one of the "good old boys" and to women who did not know him, endearing and charming. He always wanted to be the center of attention socially. But to others outside his small circle of friends he would have seemed very isolationist, xenophobic, intolerant, to the point of being sociopathic. If he had any propensity to violence and antisocial behavior, it was to those people he would have been the most dangerous. He would have had what some may call a "split personality" - a true Jekyll and Hyde.

Judith

10/17/2018 10:14:50 pm

Yes yes and yes

art

10/17/2018 05:25:12 pm

My take is that Alan Keel's statement are trustworthy. It sounds as though there was quite a bit of confusion within SFPD at that time (late 90's) regarding which letters may be fake, etc. My guess is that ultimately they pinned the 74/78 letters on Toschi and cut a deal with him to keep it under cover to avoid embarrassing their <otherwise> star detective.
Richard, thanks for placing a link to the SFPD report. I was surprised to see several of the letters are annotated as have 'few cells' or 'cells found'. These would be microscopic observations and thus quite reliable, i.e. directly observed by eye and potentially even photographed. If the stamps/flaps were not licked, then why so many different letters have SOME/few cells?? Perhaps those few cells were from Z handling (not licking)?
Note that what you call the 'primitive' and 'more advanced' DNA testing methods are both based on PCR and require roughly the same <minimum> mass of DNA for generating a result. Before doing any DNA test, the quantity/mass of DNA is measured first...and that quantification method would have been the same in the late 90's as it was in 2002. Presumably all of the letters pre-74 yielded a very very small mass of DNA. The new GED/ancestry style test (which also uses PCR) may have a better chance only because there are so many more markers (places in the DNA) that are tested. A partial profile in 2002 may yield 3 of 9 STR markers, whereas a partial GED style profile may yield 5,000 out of 600,000 SNPs (just an example).

Rex Bolt

10/17/2018 11:21:25 pm

Art,
What would be your guess as to why the current VPD re-testing has taken approximately a year so far?

art

10/18/2018 12:12:52 pm

Hi Rex, why are VPD taking so long? My guesses are either 1) low priority (despite what we hear, reality of day to day) and/or 2) if they did obtain enough mass of DNA to attempt a GED style SNP test, and if they then obtained a partial profile (highly likely given the age/history etc)...it may be the case that the partial profile has too few markers/SNPs to usefully narrow down the search in the database, i.e. too many matches, insufficient specificity. Such a partial match could be very useful for including/excluding particular suspects, but too little to narrow down a genealogical search to a useful subset of the population.

Judith

10/17/2018 10:22:39 pm

Yes Richard excellent work as always. With regards to DNA, let us start at the beginning and figure out whether or not Riverside is a Zodiac killing. The FBI obtained DNA profiles from a wristwatch and a cigarette but recovered from the crime scene. Tahoe has recently stated that male DNA was recovered from Cheri Jo Bates pants during the recent History Channel program/production. There is also hair that is quite likely that of the Killer recovered from Cheri Jo Bate's thumb. Lots of things to test down there in Riverside. I've got a feeling somebody is working on it.

Richard

10/17/2018 10:40:57 pm

They have hair from CJB's thumb and hair behind the Stine stamp. This should be the starting point.

Judith

10/18/2018 07:06:23 am

If those two hairs match we have a mystery and multiple crimes solved

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 02:42:29 pm

Yes,BB,as quoted by you :

''But it is not fair to Richard and his viewers to keep changing names.I don't know if I am addressing somebody,or I am talking to Nobody.You can ask others,if you think my request is wrong....''

It is an entirely pertinent to the purpose of debating,that everyone is perceived as the same person.Particularly as we have not the power of sight,in that respect.

We shouldn't have to debate the subject of debate,in the first place.

Those that change their names,at the drop of a hat,wear many heads and hold multi-personalities.

It's psychologically disturbing behaviour,plain and simple.

Yes,BB....I agree entirely.

10/20/2018 06:03:36 pm

Thanks Rubislaw 32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_I3Iqx8GY0&list=PLX5WbxWCSYilmAemBeEqz-zBqbcEF62w_

Alan Watts - philosophy - he says it better than I could ever do.He lectured at and gained a large following in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time the Zodiac was killing - it is an amazing contrast in my humble opinion.

And those who label him a new age wacko are just threatened by the truth.

There is nothing new age about ancient Confucian/Taoist notions.

Forget the labels - It's just wisdom.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 06:33:26 pm

Interesting about Watts,BB.

I'll look into him again - I believe that he was a Scotsman ? Not that it holds much relevance,Although they do tend to have a ''forensic eye''.

Particularly,when it comes to money [!].

Yes,I like to hear a bit of Ancient Chinese philosophy.One that comes to mind is :

'' If you are planning on revenge,then dig ''two'' graves.''

On a personal level,that's me and the Zodiac.Well,through a third and fourth party,he has threatened to ''sue my a*s''.

Given that I have also been the recipient,of more ''heavy breathing'' calls,than most people have had hot dinners,I informed ''him'',that he was welcome to try [...to sue my a*s.].

Such matters,in life......I prefer just to study him,and try to understand him.

Not much different,from your regular ''confidence trickster'' really.

Underneath,they just have contempt,for others that they perceive as ''normal'',and believe that they have been hard done by.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/21/2018 04:18:18 am

My previous comment was not directed at you,specifically,Nobody.

We ought to be ''grown up''enough,not to have to police ourselves.

There are contributors of various stages of learning,to this site,with those newer to the case,still having every chance,and every right to feel that they can offer something,worth hearing.

Sadly,and on occasion,they are trampled on,by more experienced contributors,that think they know better.

This should be a celebration of knowledge for all of us.

I am ugly enough to take care of myself....but while contributing,I won't sit back,and see the newer contributors,bullied out of a voice,by the older lot,who ought to know better.

Zodiac is ''going down''.

These should be exciting times,for the whole Zodiac community.

Richard

10/21/2018 04:46:07 am

I have deleted round 55 of the ongoing feud. If somebody is upset by somebodies comments that much, then somebody has to decide to draw a line in the sand.

Comment: "Richard I think your article is bullshit." Answer: none, I don't reply.

Comment: "Richard I think your article is wrong because of A, B and C. Answer: I accept, dismiss or partly agree, and reply accordingly and constructively

Comment: "Richard, you are an arsehole". Answer: I don't reply.

If somebody becomes fractious and doesn't reply in a manner you see befitting, stop the conversation with that poster. If that person cannot accept constructive criticism of their idea, cease entering into conversation with them.

"Richard, your website is a pile of horseshit, your ideas stink, and you are a fucking moron". Answer: I don't reply.

"Richard, I don't like your website because of A, B and C. Answer: "Sorry to hear that, I may take your criticism on board, I may not." But I don't get angry.

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