PARABON NANOLABS AND THE SEARCH FOR ZODIAC DNA

9/23/2020

Parabon NanoLabs are at the forefront of nonopharmaceuticals, phenotyping and genetic genealogy, with the latter headed by genealogist CeCe Moore, already renowned for cracking long unsolved cold cases, including the brutal murders of Tanya Van Cuylenborg and Jay Cook (1987), April Tinsley (1988) and Virginia Freeman (1981). Approximately 50% of DNA loaded onto the GEDmatch database will fail to produce a match, while 20% can be cracked relatively quickly, and 30% with the assistance of police and the appropriate manpower. Out of 300 DNA searches by Parabon NanoLabs nearly 100 cases have been solved, with several dozen having yet to result in arrests. As long as DNA and biological evidence exists in the case, a comprehensive and detailed phenotype report can be created, as well as DNA being run through public genetic genealogy databases (such as GEDmatch). The DNA testing uses microarray analysis that is capable of identifying many thousands of genetic markers, increasing the amount of information generated.

They explain how their technique differs from searches in CODIS (Combined DNA Index System): "Our genetic genealogy service is somewhat like familial search, but it differs in three very important ways: (1) we only search public genetic genealogy databases, not government-owned criminal (STR profile) databases, such as CODIS; (2) because the DNA SNP profiles we generate contain vastly more information than traditional STR profiles, genetic relatedness can be detected at a far greater distance (see Snapshot Kinship Inference); and (3) because genetic genealogy matches can be cross-referenced by name with traditional genealogy sources, such as Ancestry.com, existing family trees can be used to expedite tree-building and case-solving. This technology and our innovative techniques combine to create a groundbreaking system for forensic human identification".

Single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) are the most frequent sequence variations in the human genome, occurring approximately once every 100 to 300 bp. Apart from identical twins, each individual has a unique combination of nucleotides at these positions. Thus, a SNP profile provides a kind of fingerprint. .Joseph James DeAngelo was identified and arrested only because crime-scene DNA had been preserved. This allowed forensic scientists to compare it to genetic material using modern techniques that determine the sequence of hundreds of thousands of DNA variants, or single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), across the genome. This is the same genotyping approach used in consumer genetics testing and many biomedical studies.

"Vallejo police Detective Terry Poyser, who has worked the Zodiac case for four years, said his agency has submitted two envelopes that contained letters from the Zodiac Killer for a type of advanced DNA analysis that previously had not been available in the case. Poyser declined to identify the lab, but said it would attempt to obtain a full DNA profile from saliva on the envelope flap and stamps. He said he expected to have results back from the lab as soon as in the next few weeks, and almost certainly by summer. The department has three letters and two envelopes from the Zodiac, Poyser said. The envelopes each have a double stamp, which Poyser said was a trademark of the Zodiac. They originally were sent to the San Francisco Chronicle and the San Francisco Examiner, he said. The third letter was sent to the Vallejo Times-Herald, but does not have an envelope with it, he said. Allen largely was cleared as a suspect in 2002, when investigators obtained a partial DNA sample from the envelopes that didn't match his. Poyser said that DNA profile only had a few markers on it, less than half of the genetic points needed to definitively clear or identify a suspect".

That laboratory is likely Parabon NanoLabs based in Reston Virginia, which specializes in phenotyping services to be used in the identification of criminals by law enforcement, as well as home to the genealogy unit in which CeCe Moore was appointed head in May 2018. This coincided with renewed speculation regarding the testing of envelopes in the Zodiac Killer case and the hope of utilizing this new technology in the search for DNA deposited in the form of saliva, nearly 50 years prior. The identification of the long sought-after Zodiac Killer, going by early percentages, has a 50% chance of producing a result with the full cooperation and assistance of law enforcement (if a viable sample can be harnessed). But new privacy laws enacted by public genealogy databases such as GEDmatch, with an opt-out clause, has forced CeCe Moore to utilize Family Tree DNA (a commercial genetic testing company based in Houston, Texas).

It was reported in the Sacramento Bee newspaper in May 2018 that Detective Poyser expected to see results on the envelopes arrive by the summer, with CeCe Moore stating in July 2018 that "a team is already working to identify the Zodiac Killer, who shot and stabbed five people to death in Northern California in 1968 and 1969". Therefore, it's safe to assume that the Zodiac envelopes were submitted (likely to Parabon NanoLabs) nearly two-and-a-half years ago. Despite this being a highly efficient and successful company who submit DNA SNP profiles with greater reach, there has been no news forthcoming in the intervening twenty-eight months, thereby leaving two reasonable conclusions of: [1] DNA has been secured from the Zodiac envelopes but has failed to produce a match using GEDmatch databases and Family Tree DNA (which analyzes autosomal DNA, Y-DNA, and mitochondrial DNA). Or [2] No viable DNA has been secured from any Zodiac envelopes.

Richard

9/23/2020 03:32:33 pm

I see there has been reports of a skull and body parts being found on the east side of Lake Tahoe yesterday.

Richard link

9/23/2020 03:36:38 pm

The Carson City Sheriff’s Office is investigating human remains that were discovered Sunday at Marlette Lake.

On Sunday, bicyclists found a human skull on the Flume Trail at Marlette Lake which is located up the mountain from Sand Harbor State Park off Nevada State Route 28 on Lake Tahoe’s East Shore.

Shawn

9/24/2020 02:07:56 pm

"On Sunday, bicyclists found a human skull on the Flume Trail at Marlette Lake which is located up the mountain from Sand Harbor State Park off Nevada State Route 28 on Lake Tahoe’s East Shore."

The entrance to Sand Harbor State park is only 5 miles from Incline Village. If the place is up on a mountain the more chance of "around in the snow". It is "pass the Tahoe areas" driving west to east and probably lots of "peeking through the pines" in the area.

Mariette Lake looks like a very isolated spot to dump a body.

Hopefully the teeth are still with the skull.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 02:57:57 pm

I hate to sound scornful , for everyone should want a positive result of some sort . But , after reading the article , one wonders if these bones haven't been ''planted '' in order to bring out , in the open , and sort a dispute between police forces ( ? ) .

Or , bring closure on mistaken storage of a previously overlooked identity .

How did the skull just suddenly appear , and seemingly quite prominently , close to a cycling path , so well used ?

Roger

9/26/2020 02:14:23 am

Rubislaw, it happens, and this is actually not that unusual. The skull could belong to anyone, from an indigenous person from the days prior to Columbus, to an 1800s gold prospector or fur trader, to a missing person or murder from more modern times. Several years ago near my town some hikers one day picked up a skull cap and actually thought it was an odd-looking dish-shaped stone. They took it to a geologist who forwarded it straight to the police. It was actually the top part of a human skull.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 07:23:40 am

This is , in essence , what I have suggested to readers at the Reddit site , Roger .

That it may be a case of '' Piltdown Man - the second coming '' .

Naturally , would hope for some good news for someone - but at this stage , seems unlikely .

As has been pointed out , the Donna Lass disappearance has just reached its 50th anniversary , and the news comes in the advent of another anniversary at Lake Berryessa .

Roger

9/23/2020 06:22:48 pm

The silence from Vallejo has been deafening. The silence from Riverside has been even louder.

I am thinking this is probably not the best time for cold cases with California awash with Covid and ablaze with wildfires. The concerns of present day must surely be taking priority.

dj ritty

10/4/2020 12:36:06 pm

Is it possible they don't want to release anything until they're 100% sure everything else matches up? What if they got multiple suspects off of them? etc..

Rubislaw 32 link

9/23/2020 08:15:38 pm

This is tentatively good news over a body found , if it solves something , or even provides another piece in the jig-saw puzzle of the Zodiac Killer case . Perhaps too much to ask that it might be Donna Lass , but it has to be said that her case has proven a '' thorn of mystery '' largely unwelcome .

Indeed Roger , Vallejo are silent , on account I would suggest , to being in the proverbial '' doghouse '' , ever since Terry Poyser's disgraceful and irresponsible behaviour . I believe that the Benicia Herald and Vallejo Times-Herald are maintaining a dignified silence , for the sake of a future favourable outcome .

Riverside placed their giveaway marker of shame , a good 3-4 years ago , when they tried to blame an elderly Phil Sins , for their debacle , all those years ago , over the Bates correspondences ending up at the Postal Services Fraud Department . History will get round to blaming them , in time , eventually .

At least this present situation should give Departments of Justice unfettered focus on putting their '' houses and gardens '' in order , on the cold case front ( ? ) . We must just hope that they spend their time wisely .

One would hope that the CA DOJ have found renewed confidence in themselves , having dealt with the GSK , to a favourable out come , and general satisfaction of the victims' families .But , I would suggest that the CA DOJ aren't the only arm of justice involved in the Zodiac Killer case now . Had they performed better , many years ago , and for a sustained period since , then we wouldn't be in the place that we find ourselves now .

With hope - but '' on a wing and a prayer '' .

Richard link

9/24/2020 12:51:42 am

Frances Hatadis was last seen in South Lake Tahoe, California sometime on July 23 or 24, 1997. She has never been heard from again. At the time of her disappearance, she was staying at the Shamrock Inn near Stateline, California.

Her son got concerned when he didn't hear from her, and went to the hotel to check on her. He found her room in disarray, and a computer and other items were missing. Hatadis's vehicle, a blue 1988 Dodge Dynasty with the California license plate number 2KZC391, was gone, but there were no indications that she'd packed her belongings.

Her son reported her missing on August 4. When he checked her room more thoroughly six days later, he found a moderate-sized bloodstain on the underside of her mattress.

Later that month, Edward T. Hawkins was stopped in Morgan County, Colorado, driving Hatadis's car and in possession of several stolen credit cards.

Ali

9/24/2020 01:10:33 am

Hi Richard, sorry for posting this here, but you seem to have removed your contact info, and the page I'm commenting on has no comments section. It's about https://www.zodiacciphers.com/lawrence-kane.html . Specifically, it's the Harvey Hines report about Donna Lass and Lawrence Kane. There's a mistake on there. It says "Now we have the Zodiac running into the Presidio in the direction of Letterman General Hospital. The very place that Donna Lass worked. Also, in looking at the area map, I found that Lass lived six blocks south in the 4000 block of Balboa." That's just wrong. The 4000 block of Balboa is 5 miles away from where the Letterman Hospital (now the Letterman Digital Arts Center) was.

All the best, Ali

Richard

9/24/2020 01:25:17 am

What Harvey Hines meant Ali, was Donna Lass lived at 4122 Balboa Street, not the Balboa Park district. 4122 Balboa Street is 2.64 miles west of Washington & Cherry.

9/24/2020 05:49:29 am

If no viable DNA has been secured from either the letters or the crime scenes, that's really bad news and will probably doom the case for decades to come. The only hope then for revealing the identity of the culprit forensically is to focus on other crimes committed by the same person and connecting them to the Zodiac killings via circumstantial evidence.

If viable DNA has been secured, then it's probably a matter of time before someone from the same lineage either voluntarily submits their DNA to a genealogy company, or involuntarily in connection with a law enforcement order.

According to hints by both Tom Voigt and Mike Morford, it appears a possible match via a genealogy service may have been reached. Hopefully, this means law enforcement is now looking at the relatives of the owner of the genetic match and doing all the leg work involved in assembling evidence that a relative is the Zodiac killer.

Either way, hopefully Zodiac's identity will be revealed within our lifetime.

Richard

9/24/2020 07:04:59 am

If he licked the stamps and envelopes Mo, there is little doubt his DNA exists on some of the 30+ letters. But are they testing the later ones, including the two letters mailed 17 and 18 years after the trinity of letters to the Chronicle, Examiner and Herald? I unfortunately doubt it. Why test 51 year old letters when you can test 33 year old letters, with an increased chance of success, better storage and less degradation?

9/24/2020 05:58:31 am

According to Robert Graysmith, there was an initial DNA "match" between ALA and Zodiac, before the same evidence was run again and determined that it was "not a match"

What drove this discrepancy? Was it the result of a miscommunication, an error in processing the DNA, or was there simply insufficient DNA to conclusively and legally tie anyone to the crimes, which may have implicitly "cleared" ALA?

Richard link

9/24/2020 06:57:25 am

His imagination drove this discrepancy. On Zodiac Killer Facts it stated
"Graysmith claimed that police obtained a “Zodiac” DNA sample which matched “the prime suspect,” convicted child molester and Vallejo resident Arthur Leigh Allen. Graysmith also claimed that SFPD Inspector Vince Repetto then stated that the match was a “false positive” result. According to Graysmith’s account, SFPD Lieutenant Tom Bruton explained that the suspected “Zodiac” DNA was obtained from a letter sent to the San Francisco Chronicle in April 1978. Several handwriting experts had concluded that this letter was a forgery and not an authentic Zodiac communication. In his article, Graysmith expressed his dismay that police had used the 1978 for DNA testing and wrote, “They had tested a hoax letter,” despite the fact that Graysmith was one of the few individuals who claimed that the April 1978 letter was authentic".

TZKIS

9/24/2020 06:09:12 am

Arthur Allen said it best: "there's two kinds of liars in the world. Fisherman and policemen, and not necessarily in that order". I believe Poyser was blowing Dixie out of his ass with a trumpet. He would make Satchmo proud. Over two years for DNA results? And with such a prolific criminal cold case? Bullshit! The only DNA they'll find will be Tom Voids, from handling evidence without latex gloves. I wonder if that's not the reason why Poyser "suddenly" retired alleging health reasons. He looked perfectly fine to me inside the police cruiser during his swan song ride along the streets of Vallejo. Shit, he even shed a tear or two which made me shed some too. It seems that Bay Area PDs continually tarnish themselves with embarrassing episodes. No gloves and a convicted stalker rummaging through cold case evidence? Not a pretty sight if you ask me. It's amazing who LE allows inside their most sacred of sanctums. Truly, the apple does not fall far from the tree.
On a different note, Richard, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your reply to Mike Rodelli. It's about time folks stand up to these money-making-book-selling-morally-corrupt-cretins and their fantastic flying bullshit. Suffice to say, you hit him right in the fruit basket. Well done, sir. Can't wait to read his reply. It's sure to be a doozy.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 06:27:54 am

Wholeheartedly agree with you , TZKIS .

Whatever anyone says about the DNA and general forensics comparisons work , carried out in 2002/2003 ( ...which eliminated ALA , Grant and Cheney...) , by the FBI at Quantico , in the service of the case's legal custodians , the CA DOJ....

It has NEVER been revoked , and still stands to this day .

Just ask Dan Olson , who was one of the signatories at the time , and still in the service of the FBI .

This I have told Mike Rodelli to do , when he continually goes on about peripheral and irrelevant '' players '' , who merely have an '' opinion '' .

My advice to anyone , if they choose to listen :

Don't listen to Mike '' some time ago '' Morford .

And , ignore Tom Voigt and his imaginary friends , completely .

TZKIS

9/24/2020 05:03:54 pm

I'm glad that regarding the latter we seem to be on the same page. Now, please allow me to ask you a question, Rubislaw. It may seem somewhat odd to you now, but you'll understand why I ask it la8ter. What is tinsel-town recognized for?

Ps. Richard, I concur with poster Shawn. You website is not mobile/cell phone/iPad friendly. Any way you may fix that? I had to wait until this morning to reply to Rubislaw's post from my desktop.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 05:59:33 pm

Ah...the superficially glamorous world of Hollywood ( ? ) .

Never trust the serious word of a world-class mimic .

Full of millionaire-communists , Champagne Socialists and Bollinger Bolsheviks .

Am I getting close ?

TZXIS

9/24/2020 06:57:30 pm

You are getting close, but no ciGAR! Tinsel-town is recognized for creating "CHARACTERS." Now, I'm not saying that the Zodiac was a Hollywood Star. What I'm saying, however, is that the Zodiac was a conscious and intelligent movie buff of the first order. He knew and understood that THE GAME, HIS GAME, needed a "CHARACTER" of its own if you know what I mean.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 07:34:39 pm

Certainly a good point made , and the problem in assess the Zodiac can be finding the dividing line between his fantasy and his reality .

Perhaps '' The Game '' had taken over his life , to such an extent , that there was no longer any discernible separation ( ? ) .

But , he still had to hold down a job , unless wealthy , and perform some normal chores and obligations - one might think ( ? ) .

There will , naturally , be many takes on the Zodiac , and with a starting point , of sorts . Mine is that his core and catalytic motive was to make William Grant's life a living hell , for a past that I can't discuss , at present .

But , it still shocks me that the Zodiac seems to have been able to pour so much heart , energy , and negative vibrations into this '' campaign '' that over-spilled into the public domain .

And , more than likely , hold down a job , and ( probably ) take some responsibility for family .

It's the Zodiacs energy , with his mind ticking overtime , that I can't get over . Relentless .

TZKIS

9/24/2020 09:19:21 pm

You know what? I'm actually enjoying our to and fro. I discern you speak truthfully, oh wise one. Grey hair, perhaps? Your outdated punctuation style may give another wise-one your age. Or is it a pretense, to ward off the vampires? Many current US citizens involved in the Zodiac case use the same stylistic trait. Be that as it may, you know more about me than I know about you. My face is spattered all over the screen.

There's nothing spectacular or unnatural about serial killers holding down jobs and taking responsibility for their families. In fact, a large number are educated, well-established family men. The Zodiac falls into the latter. He's remained unspotted from the world because he was taught how to stay unspotted. His resume is clean. He had a father who unquestionably taught him the essential details of LE procedures. What to do and what not to do. He lived and lives by a code. There's nothing on LEs computer devices that draws a red flag. Nothing! No charges, no misdemeanors. A competent student and well educated young man. Read books to old ladies who, if needed, could and would testify to him being caring, amicable, humorous, and strikingly good looking.
The chameleon-like qualities of the Zodiac. Just another All American Boy. Well-liked by his peers and teachers. But this one has been living in darkness for a very long time. He knows the Light but chose the darkness. His predicament is with God. He never answered his questions! He answers our questions, though, in His unique way. He's a silent being who speaks through the heart, but the Zodiac chose not to listen. He played God and will answer to God. Life is not ultimately meaningless. In the military, he learned a significant number of skills. He learned structure, loyalty, perseverance, friendship, unity, and of most importance, self-control. His heartbeat never raises above 75 when placed in stressful situations. He's always a few steps ahead and in control of his environment. He's polished, articulate, but I may make him nervous.
I've often thought about that. He sat inside Narlow's office twice, discussing the case and also spoke at length with FBI agents at their field office in San Francisco. In fact, he also communicated with the late George Webster, a CIA Operative. Never once negating the opportunity when it arose to discuss the case. And why? Because no one's ever asked him the hard questions. The power he felt when right there in their faces must have been God-like. He's never felt the brightness and heat of hi-beams on him. Until now, that is. He's prepared to walk into Narlow's and the FBI's office but instructs a nobody like me never to call him again? Confused? I am! The only blemishes I know about? A torrid love affair, three divorces, a child that never spoke to him for many years, and punched in the face by his step-father because of his cruelty to an animal. One of his ex-wives expressed the sentiment that she has no intentions of being part of his theatre, and that he can get even in many ingenious ways. She was there and saw him being consumed by the Zodiac case. Then, there's Pam Keith, his companion at the Vallejo Library. She, too, resigned herself from discussing the man, the prodigy.
His daughter believes Michael O'Hare's the Zodiac. A very confronting women with an evident man-like hatred. I wonder why? This story is far from over. There's a final chapter to be written. I know a secret about him that no other sleuth, including LE, knows about. It's personal and goes all the way back to his infancy. Not only was he the first baby born on the morning of January 1, 1941, but he was also fated with a dreadful future.

Richard

9/24/2020 11:53:30 pm

The website is governed by Weebly, of which I have no control. They control how the website performs on the different platforms including mobile and ipad, so unfortunately there is little I can do on that front. Unless I build my own website from the ground up with an extensive knowledge of coding (which I don't have) I'm afraid I am reliant on the host for such changes of functionality on the different platforms.

Shawn

9/24/2020 07:52:35 am

Even when you have the killer’s full DNA profile nothing is guaranteed.

Everyday these old obscure cases I never heard are solved with dna and gedmatch technology.

Yet high profile cases like Nancy Bennallack remain unsolved despite having the killer’s full dna profile.. I imagine much effort has been put Into the high profile cases.

There is a chance they could have Zodiac’s full profile bot are stuck like with Nancy’s case.

Shawn

9/24/2020 08:01:05 am

I want to note I cannot do a direct reply to comments when I am on IPad. The reason is that I cannot see the verify button when doing the screening thing to post here. The window that opens up is too small to the see entire verification box.

If I drop to the bottom and post Then the verification window box is large enough to see the button to verify I selected proper picture, hence I can post.

Mr Grumpy

9/25/2020 06:01:11 am

Thanks for the post. Same issue I experience when using Ipad. Does not affect Desktop

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 08:21:10 am

It is , perhaps , unfair to actively impress one's opinions on others , when one has not actually been present , in a room , privy to certain information .

In addition , as with the likes of Mr.Morford and Mr.Voigt , it can be seen a simple desire to advertise one's self-importance .

For what it may be worth , or not , the current situation is not about obtaining Zodiac DNA , nor finding a match .

'' That '' is already in the bag . What appears to be lacking , is a willingness to arrest the Zodiac for a murder , after Bay area reign of terror .

The Bay area attacks that resulted in murder , are too compromised and prejudiced , over time and police '' cock-ups '' , to pursue the Zodiac , with judicial confidence .

So , it comes down to what the authorities believe that they might be able to nail him for , post Bay area . The biggest hurdle , here , is the consideration of enough circumstantial evidence , to go along with the direct forensics evidence , '' already in the bag '' .

Personally , and from what I have found , going back to sometime involvement with LE agencies , as far as 2009 , is that there are four candidate cases under scrutiny . Two of which ought to still be worth prosecuting , provided faith in enough circumstantial evidence .

People sometimes want '' something '' rather than '' nothing '' , so I will say , on the basis of ''take it or leave it '' that I believe that the Joan Webster case is one under review , but unlikely to be '' first wave '' . And , secondly , that it could still be the case that CCTV cameras end up nailing the Zodiac .

Unthinkable , to even the Zodiac himself , 50 years ago . For the notion of '' Big Brother '' was being contemplated , even then .

TZKIS

9/24/2020 06:40:09 pm

Please allow me to reply to some of your comments, and in the order you made them.

(1) "It is , perhaps , unfair to actively impress one's opinions on others , when one has not actually been present , in a room , privy to certain information ."

Unfair or not, opinions are a part of life, and we're all entitled to them. Yes, I know, I'm guilty of hypocrisy here. But, I put up my hand and plead guilty. However, just because somebody has an opinion, it does not make that opinion right.

The Zodiac case is filled with folks and their (some English natives can't use "their," and they're" correctly) opinions. Regarding this case and barring LE, not a single sleuth (except Void) has been inside LEs inner sanctum during Zodiac related chats (Penn thought I was saying "chek" during our brief and momentous phone conversation. That's the price folks have to pay because I'm not an English native...my accent/pronunciation).

Thus, who, how, why, when, and what gumshoes/officers discuss remains a secret. Shit, they even keep secrets from each other because of glorifying and self-righteous bureaucratic bullshit. Nevertheless, there are times when information gets leaked to outside sources in an attempt to draw the perp from the cover of darkness. Yet again, some of that information is erroneous at times; another common LE ploy used to ward off kooks/loons/morons, etc.

(2) "In addition , as with the likes of Mr.Morford and Mr.Voigt , it can be seen a simple desire to advertise one's self-importance.

It's part-and-parcel of the American way of life. Self-righteousness and self-importance are aromas rippling through the American citizen's Genome. And then, along comes the US Constitution to make matters worse.

Just yesterday, I replied to a poster on my channel regarding this very thing. He decided to tell me, and I quote, "You've fallen for the ridiculous idea that if the government takes firearms away from law-abiding citizens, it will prevent criminals from using them."

He's joking, right?

Guns should be eradicated, period. Here, there, and everywhere!
As humans, we must preserve life, not destroy it. Life is a precious gift that should not be taken senselessly by the sword.

The reason guns are not eradicated, particularly in the US, is because of the US Constitution working in unison with the NRA. Both rule and runs the roost. Money above human life always, I say. I gave two years of my life to the military, and I witnessed first hand the destruction that guns and armament cause to the human body. I was there. I saw it, and I experienced it...I smelled it! Thus, I don't particularly enjoy having the gospel of guns preached to me. There were 427 mass shootings in the United States in 2017, and more than 15,000 people were killed in firearm-related incidents, while over 30,000 people were injured. Indeed, banning (or, at least, heavily restricting) guns from civilian ownership wouldn't eliminate gun violence altogether, I accept that, but it would make it less likely. It would also save tens of thousands of lives.

It's very, very rare for mass shooters to be stopped by an armed civilian. There have been cases (such as when an Uber driver with a concealed carry permit potentially foiled a mass shooting in Chicago in 2015). However, in the event of a mass shooting, armed citizens could make the situation worse by confusing first responders and people around them about who the shooter is. Besides, gun owners are more likely to shoot a family member than they are an intruder accidentally. There are hundreds of cases where children have died at the hands of a parent because of guns. Guns are not a defense against tyranny. The rule of law is the only defense against tyranny. The idea that armed militias could overthrow a professional army is laughable; it might have worked in the 18th Century, but the capability gap between civilians with small arms and modern troops with tanks and stealth bombers is now a yawning gulf.

We can sit here and debate this issue until the cows come home. There will always be the pro-gun-lobbyists (US citizens), and then there's me. Say what you want and do what you want. If you're a US citizen, "you live in the land of the free and the home of the brave." Or is it "the land of the convict and the home of the coward?"

I need to digress.

I've asked the following question before. However, I will ask again.
Why does the US, a country that accounts for 23% of the world's population, produce more serial killers that the other 67% combined?

Since the 1970s, the United States has been plagued by an estimated 1400 serial killers, secretly stalking the streets on a mission to kill. Why is that? What turns the US Citizen into such a blood-thirsty monster?

However, please ask your fellow citizens (if you are an American citizen) to stop their whining, their tears, and their protests the next time innocent men, women, and children die at the hands of a screwball carrying an AR-15 assaul

TZKIS

9/24/2020 06:45:42 pm

However, please ask your fellow citizens (if you are an American citizen) to stop their whining, their tears, and their protests the next time innocent men, women, and children die at the hands of a screwball carrying an AR-15 assault rifle. Americans want their cake and want to eat it too! Either accept one and get rid of the other period! If they don't, they're committing intellectual dishonesty. And why? Because they "hold onto their constitutional rights that dictate it's their God-given right to have and bear arms." The US Constitution has turned the US into a cesspool of tiny and insignificant self-entitled people. If examples are required to substantiate the latter, please spend some time on YouTube viewing some of the disgusting crap that emerges from that country because of "their" constitutional rights.

I thank God every day. Why? Because I wasn't born in America, and don't reside there either. Years ago, I debated a US Marine who tried telling me that when the world needs a military juggernaut to fight wars, the US is the only country that stands up and does something about it. When I explained that during the Vietnam War, Australian, French, Chinese, Soviet, New Zealand, Thai troops, etc. bleed and died next to their American counterparts, he went silent. I presume he also thought that both World Wars were fought by the Americans only. What a self-centered and self-entitled retard. The reason America and other countries fight wars is because of money. Wars make many people rich.
Don't even get me started on the reasons why that good-for-nothing-moron-and-uneducated George Walker Bush elected to invade Iraq.

Here's a free and top tip to ALL Americans. Get out of that place while you still can. Your government does an expert job at brainwashing its citizens. Why would you desire to live under the banner of a flag that's spent the last Century attacking its citizens using intelligence brainwashing techniques? And why would anyone in their right mind vote for Donald-the-fuckward-Trump again? It's a damn shame that piece-of-shit didn't self-combust when holding a bible in his right hand.

While I'm on the Holy Book topic, I need to digress again. Somebody should institutionalize a law that removes it from inside a court of law. They are making a mockery out of the Word of God. Which atheist will not perjure him/herself even though he/she places his/her right hand on the Holy Book and declares "I do" when asked, " do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you, God! If God-fearing man and women continually perjure themselves inside a court-of-law, what chance is there for an atheist not too? Even cops and oligarchs perjure themselves after declaring "I do"!

(3) "So , it comes down to what the authorities believe that they might be able to nail him for , post Bay area . The biggest hurdle , here , is the consideration of enough circumstantial evidence , to go along with the direct forensics evidence , '' already in the bag '' .

As I've maintained all along, LEs have neglected to analyze the direct forensic evidence thoroughly. In other words, the letters and cards! The answers to his identity are right there in plain sight and within. However, let's try railroading the dead man Arthur Allen because Poyser and the Vallejo PD have enough "circumstantial evidence" to do so. Funny how "circumstantial evidence" suits some criminal cases and not others. Make shit up and make it fit as we go along, shall we? As you said before, just ask Dan Olson about the Allen railroading attempt, particularly after the forensics didn't match.

(4) "People sometimes want '' something '' rather than '' nothing '' , so I will say , on the basis of ''take it or leave it '' that I believe that the Joan Webster case is one under review , but unlikely to be '' first wave '' . And , secondly , that it could still be the case that CCTV cameras end up nailing the Zodiac ."

I've said it before, but I will repeat it. Take that damn ABC footage and have it digitally and forensically analyzed. If you're looking for Big Brother watching, he was, on the day the Zodiac crossed the street outside the St. Vinnies de Paul's Society in Mission St., Daly City. But no, why would LE waste a few miserable pennies trying to dismiss a probable, viable, and crucial lead that could result in the individual's apprehension? Mainly when those pennies could be used for better things, like buying Krispy Kreme doughnuts, right?

Sully link

9/24/2020 07:26:20 pm

Ok I'll chime in again. Nobody is here to debate the 2nd Amendment. Kindly take political rants elsewhere if you do not have any Zodiac related material. You're on the wrong forum, mate 😁

TZKIS

9/24/2020 07:42:11 pm

Please accept my deepest contrafibularities. Just keep that in mind next time someone else talks about a subject unrelated to the Zodiac case, okay?

Roger

9/24/2020 09:15:42 pm

How about the Knicks, eh? 😁

TZKIS

9/24/2020 09:25:05 pm

Sorry, don't know much about basketball or the Knicks. Know lots about Niky though.

American fan

9/24/2020 10:15:37 pm

Are you that Australian guy on YouTube who says Penn was the Zodiac? I must say, yours is the best and most revealing satire of the amateur Zodiac investigative process on YouTube by far. Please keep up the good work! You have a lot of fans.

Richard

9/25/2020 12:22:51 am

We all have our political opinions, including myself, but can I respectfully request we try to stick to Zodiac related material. The politics discussions are extremely interesting on other platforms, but often they end up in endless heated back and forths, with rarely anyone ever changing their mind. Thank you in advance.

TZKIS

9/25/2020 12:57:18 am

American Fan and Richard.

Yes I am the same person. Not well liked thought because I say it the way I see it. No obfuscation here and I'm true to myself and my viewers. Get to know me and you'll soon realize that I'm far from being the same arrogant twit portrayed during my presentations.

Richard, please forgive my politicized post. Sometimes I get carried away and go off on a tangent. Being form the UK, you should know that Portuguese men at times are very temperamental beings. There's a fire in our belly that uncontrollable at times.

Richard link

9/25/2020 01:40:24 am

TZKIS: I have posted once on a political forum, on which I got roundly pounded for being an ignorant Englishman who knew nothing, despite having studied the subject for 20 years. I don't mind political discussion, but I have visitors who like to keep politics and Zodiac separate because they get enough of that 24/7 elsewhere. I don't mind a good old rant, but I'm just trying to keep everybody happy. Thanks again. If you wish to read the article I posted on the Reddit forum in which I got roundly booed, click my name above. I hazard a guess you'll probably side with me. But obviously, reply there not here!

American fan

9/25/2020 01:46:40 am

There are three common sayings that should apply to Zodiac research and the way others may receive our ideas.

1) "It takes all kinds to make the world."
2) "Whatever floats your boat."
2) "Each to their own."
3) "Live and let live".

American fan

9/25/2020 01:48:51 am

Okay that's four. Clearly I can't count. lol!

Judith

9/24/2020 08:28:31 am

Interesting, as I have been blocked from posting for years now by both Tom and Mike.

Roger

9/24/2020 09:34:04 pm

Their "little lists" of blocked IP and email addresses remind me a bit of religious cults who seek to collate lists of number plates. A grudge for them lasts forever. Once blocked you are forever blocked. But in all honesty, I no longer see any point in commenting on their forums. The big forums are really only there for those who seek to push a wheelbarrow, IMHO. *shrug*

Rubislaw 32 link

9/24/2020 10:24:41 am

To their shame , Judith , for you are a worthy contributor , with much to offer .

Not exactly a coincidence that moderators , in the past , have operated at both sites , simultaneously ( ? ) .

March 26th 2019 really was a watershed , in that it illustrated all to clearly , how far standards of probity had fallen with the two internet sites , that most Zodiac followers looked up to , for a lead .

Oh how these two sites like to take a pop at Reddit now , in the belief that they hold a greater knowledge and grasp of the case . But , it's that very elitist philosophy , lacking in any intellectual humility , which was largely responsible for a breakaway Reddit site taking off , in popularity .

There are still some very worthy contributors remaining - but less like-minded souls , with which to share a debate for a greater knowledge .

The format at Reddit is just different . More lively - and certainly more inclusive .

With an intolerance for transparent elitism and hypocrisy that had become a malaise .of '' the old guard '' .

Richard

9/25/2020 12:48:04 am

Getting back on track, I personally don't believe any Zodiac DNA has been secured from the submitted material, because they have likely submitted limited material that hasn't included such letters as the 1986 and 1987 communications. I know for a fact that it doesn't take nearly three years to detect and run ancestry through GEDmatch or Family Tree. According to CeCe Moore the process is relatively simple, having solved one case over a weekend from home. The cryptic messaging on certain forums is nothing more than baiting people into believing something is happening when it is not. If there was news available you would just say so, not employ cryptic language designed to infer.

Richard

9/25/2020 01:20:47 am

I have gathered some valuable information off the Zodiac Killer Site forum down the years, often from the outlier letters that have been secured from FOIA requests, including Mike Morford on many occasions. I personally have utter respect for Mike, who has always been accessible and amenable to me in all my dealings with him. The downside of the Zodiac scene is the lack of cooperation between the community as a whole, having been fractured by competing agendas and theories, along with the incessant and childish backbiting. Many of the things I have found has been a result of long hours of scouring the Zodiac Killer Site forum, which is an extremely valuable resource of information. I would love to see law enforcement place much more emphasis on the communications they have long dismissed as being Zodiac material and become blinkered in their approach, often retesting the same old material such as the July 31st 1969 letters. I have seen many investigators in newspaper articles referring to the Zodiac community as amateur sleuths, armchair detectives, obsessives and kooks, when in actual fact many of the people they are referring to have vastly more knowledge of the case than they do. We have seen many "armchair detectives" solve cases for them down the years, so their willingness to blanket describe the Zodiac community as full of "amateurs" and "kooks" who are invariably doing their job for them, is annoyingly dismissive. I do understand that they do get inundated with "off the wall" ideas, so separating the wheat from the chaff is a thankless task, but discerning the ridiculous from the credible shouldn't be hard to spot for a "trained detective".

Richard link

9/25/2020 05:31:04 am

DNA found on a threatening letter from decades ago may offer valuable clues to solving a murder case involving a little boy who was killed in 1984. Crucially, the DNA samples don't match those of the parents of 'Little Gregory'.

Investigators said Thursday they may have a new lead in one of France's longest-running criminal mysteries, the murder of a little boy in 1985, after finding DNA on a threatening letter sent to his parents after his death.

The body of four-year-old Gregory Villemin was found drowned in the Vologne river in eastern France in October 1984. The following day, a letter arrived at his parents' home claiming responsibility for the murder and saying it was "revenge." The Villemins had been receiving anonymous hate mail ahead of Gregory's death.

The boy's killing sparked a 17-year-long legal saga that transfixed France. The case was closed in 2001 without identifying either the murderer or the sender of the mysterious letters.

The analysis revealed two sets of DNA on a letter sent to Gregory's family nine months after his murder, prosecutor Jean-Marie Beney told AFP.

"We found two identifiable sets of DNA on the sealed evidence: a woman's DNA on or under the stamp of one of the letters from the poison-pen writer and a man's DNA on the same letter," Beney said.

The letter -- sent to Albert and Monique Villemin, the boy's grandparents -- contained a threat against the entire family. "I will do you in, the Villemin family, Monique is next on the list."

Mr Grumpy

9/25/2020 06:03:24 am

Some of our self proclaimed xperts seem to have trouble staying on topic. Is the Zodiac case just too mundane for some?

Roger

9/25/2020 05:57:37 pm

You must be on the wrong website. I cannot recall anyone on these pages ever declaring themselves "xperts". Granted, some of the more grandiose entertainers may at times seek to imply this, to the point that we sometimes imagine The Platters singing "The Great Pretender" in the background, but for the most part we are all amateurs here. I also cannot find too many pages on this website where the commentary has ever stayed on topic. The commentary often goes off on tangents and ends up discussing loosely related or entirely different topics. This is very much par for the course, or more accurately, "the nature of the beast".

MR Grumpy

9/26/2020 06:06:48 am

It is very subtle and often claims of inside information, that of course can not be revealed, are mentioned

Roger

9/26/2020 04:12:00 pm

Yes I am always wary of those who claim to possess inside knowledge, especially if they communicate it obscurely. However inside information does sometimes occur. Graysmith and Tom Voigt for example were at times given bits and pieces of inside information. Voigt evidently once obtained a lot of interesting and potentially incriminating information on the Cheri Jo Bates case from an inside source who worked on that case. Occasionally writers and news reporters are given scraps of inside information too, e.g. the article on Cheri Jo Bates in Inside Detective magazine clearly contained more information than could have been gathered from the newspaper reports of the day. We can of course only hope that the information is true and accurate and not simply fabricated in the interests of a good story.

Judith

9/25/2020 08:50:24 am

So it has been too long now to not have results back from Nancy Bennallack's killer's DNA. He bled at the scene.
So Sac County Sheriff's are hiding something.
This little whisper from Morford about his inside source, they are working on something.
Could they be trying to match the DNA from Bennallack to what they have in other jurisdictions?
That could be very time consuming.
Solano County
City of Vallejo
Riverside
Napa County
Sacramento County
San Francisco
California DOJ

Decrepit old evidence which everyone has molested.

Roger

9/25/2020 06:42:28 pm

I am thinking that if Nancy Bennallack's killer left his own blood at the scene there should be no reason why they cannot obtain a full DNA profile, and that would also entail an accurate DNA phenotype. So they should at least know what the killer looked like. The problem may be in finding a match on a database like GEDmatch, in which case authorities may simply take a "wait and see" approach. As new data is being uploaded all the time a match may be forthcoming in future, but until that day arrives we the public will hear nothing.

And I could not agree with you more about the contamination of material evidence. This was rampant in those days. One of the great tragedies of the Zodiac case is that it came at a time before the possibilities of DNA were really being widely considered or accepted. Of course it was heard of, but in mostly academic terms, so it existed only in the realms of a futuristic possibility. It was treated like sci-fi by law enforcement at the time. I think this is why the evidence was often treated so badly. There were no protocols for preservation of highly sensitive DNA as it relates to material evidence. These would not come for some years later. Back in those days the authorities were really only interested in two things: handwriting and fingerprints. Once those two possibilities were checked for and discounted, so the evidence was largely open to handling by a large number of people following initial forensic examination.

I personally think trace or touch DNA on letters would be very "hit and miss", because some letters were handled by multiple people over long periods of time. Reporters often had their grubby hands all over communications while eating donuts and drinking coffee, for many hours before the evidence could be collected by the authorities. Really the only viable DNA might come in the form of hairs, skin cells, or saliva that got pressed into the back of a stamp or the sealing glue of envelopes. Even then, such DNA could be open to contamination from foreign sources, for example if somebody else had licked or attached the stamps, or handled the envelope prior to that time, and then there is deterioration over time to consider. "Decrepit old evidence which everyone has molested" really does describe it very well Judith. My feeling is if they did get any DNA off those communications it would be a mix of traces from many different people, none of whom may be the Zodiac. But as you suggest, I think law enforcement may be hopeful that a tentative "tie in" for Zodiac could come from "without" rather than from "within", for example if traces from Zodiac evidence suggest a possible match with a full DNA profile from another crime scene.

My understanding is there has never been such a thing as "Zodiac DNA" and probably never will be. But do they have obscure traces that are still "unknown"? I do not know and it seems nobody does. At least one thing is clear, law enforcement do not want the public to know if they have DNA or not. It seems to me the only viable traces are from the Cheri Jo Bates case and it is doubtful that this was ever a Zodiac crime. The DNA from the CJB case seems to be very weak. As a whole the forensic evidence seems to suggest her attacker was a Caucasian male with light sandy or brown hair, so that could be any one of many thousands of people. The manner of attack strongly suggests her attacker was known to her. Apart from those two tenuous "links" in the evidence, plus witness statements, now many decades old, there is really not enough there to satisfy a court of law. There is too much "reasonable doubt".

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 09:48:32 pm

Arthur Leigh Allen , Don Cheney and William Joseph Grant were all cleared by DNA comparisons , in the laboratory work carried out by the FBI , in 2002/2003 , and signed for by Bill Lockyer , Allen Benitez , Robert Mueller , Dan Olson and George W.Bush .

Don Cheney refers to it , in an interview with Tom Voigt ,and Lyndon Lafferty refers to Grant's negative comparison , as informed by the CA DOJ . ALA was deceased by then , but the press were informed .Grant's DNA elimination did not become public knowledge , until after his death , in February 2012 . This , on account of his illegal suspect status .

These eliminations , by comparison to the Zodiac's DNA profile , have never been rescinded , and still stand to this day .

Roger

9/26/2020 01:58:03 am

Tom Voigt started a recent discussion by clearly and categorically stating the following: "The hope is the newest DNA testing methods can glean a full genetic profile of the Zodiac that can be used in an Ancestry-type database, which is already being used on another Vallejo cold case with results due this week." [Sidenote: Voigt was absolutely correct about that other Vallejo case. It has been solved!] Voigt goes on to say: "What Zodiac evidence is being tested for DNA? According to Det. Terry Poyser, two envelopes, including the stamps, from the July 31, 1969 letters Zodiac mailed to two San Francisco newspapers; they were originally tested about 10 years ago and approx. 25% of each stamp and a small portion of the adhesive area of each envelope were used for testing. That testing yielded only 5 indicators or so of DNA, which did not match the DNA from Vallejo suspect Arthur Leigh Allen."

I do not doubt Voigt in this case. My understanding is the original test only yielded enough DNA to exclude Leigh and Grant. We have to presume of course that this DNA belonged to the Zodiac and was not just some random who happened to contaminate evidence at a crime scene. Of course 20 markers is the Holy Grail of testing, but as many as seven can drop out and you'll still have enough to make a profile good enough to identify someone. But 5 is too low and can only be used to exclude some individuals.

I am sure there must be plenty of people like me who are just wanting to receive some real validation from the authorities rather than listen to whatever some guy on a forum tells us. Do they have DNA or not, and if so, what kind of DNA - a full profile or just partial? It is a reasonable enough question. The public wants to know. We all want to know. There have just been too many years of uncertainty on this issue. To say it is frustrating would be the understatement of the century. One would hope they are sitting on any DNA in case a hit ever shows on GEDmatch. Even an update from Vallejo telling us they are still looking or trying to refine or match the results, that would be something. At present I think we all feel about as frustrated as that kid in the back seat of his parent's car asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

Richard link

9/26/2020 02:26:00 am

How high on the priority scale do you think this 50-year-old case takes? You need to watch this brief 2-minute clip (linked by my name) of a black "grandma" strangled and raped in 2005. They had immediate suspects including family, along with semen recovered from the victim. The rape kit was taken, stored and untested for 8 years until this Cold Justice episode. This crime could have been solved in a matter of days by competent people, and a system that worked and gave a shit. The person who was eventually identified easily by creating a DNA profile, potentially had 8 years to rape and murder other innocent people. The problem - backlog and underfunding. This was an ordinary black grandmother, from an ordinary neighbourhood. If this rape and murder had occurred in Beverly Hills in a rich and prosperous area, the police and authorities would have raced that sample off in double-quick time. This case was nothing short of a disgrace, when a killer could potentially have claimed further victims. The Zodiac Killer is probably long dead, with little or no threat to the current population. No urgency is therefore necessary, unless we contend current authorities are feeling the pressure from Zodiac sleuths for a resolution. I sincerely doubt it. If they had Zodiac DNA from their initial testing, it doesn't take 3 years to run ancestry searches, even if you were going back to the neolithic era, which they aren't. Either no Zodiac DNA has been secured, or they have yet again limited themselves to the July 31st letters, which doesn't make any sense unless only Vallejo are spearheading the drive.

Roger

9/26/2020 04:34:34 pm

The priority is not high but then again the work is relatively easy. Just post it off to a DNA lab and let them do the rest. I agree there are really only three possibilities: 1) they found no more markers or the new study only added a couple more, and 2) they are still struggling to obtain a match on GEDmatch, or 3) they have found too many matches due to the small number of markers. The problem with only having 5 or so markers is they will end up with a huge number of matches, so then it becomes a game of matching the DNA to those who had relatives who once lived in that part of California. Those family trees can be vast. The tragedy is that someone could spend hundreds of hours on this and still reach a dead end. I have done history and family history research of my own in the past and can tell you that it is often an extremely slow and tedious process. Spending days, weeks, even months on dead ends is not unusual. The time factor is not what concerns me. It is the total lack of any public communication after so long that I find the most frustrating. Jotting off an email about the progress of the DNA analysis in the form of a press release to a local newspaper should not be too time consuming. It is interesting to note that after a breakthrough and an arrest in a cold case, law enforcement always find plenty of time for photo shoots and interviews. Perhaps as you suggest, the sad reality is that absolute silence on the progress of cases tends to speak volumes about their priorities. It also tends to reflect badly on their level of competence.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 11:48:46 am

Richard , I've just spotted a possible Zodiac typed letter , dated August 23rd 2008 , and signed '' Anonymous '' .

Posted to a person in Massachusetts ( name withheld by Eve Carson , sister-in-law of Joan Webster ) , from somewhere close to where George & Eleanor Webster had retired .

It certainly reads , as if it could have been from the Zodiac , but naturally no real way of confirming this , without more information from Ms.Carson .

If you type up '' Eleanor Terry Webster '' on Google Images , then access any image denoted by breakfornews.com , then access Page 46 , and scroll about one third of the way down .

Always on the scavenge....naturally with the recipient of this typed letter , residing in MA , one's thoughts turn back to New Canaan .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 12:09:48 pm

New Canaan , Connecticut...of course .

Nonetheless , a letter of interest , and to be noted within the case of Joan Webster .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 12:15:59 pm

Possibly , Toots could ask Ms.Carson if she is willing to paste up the envelope in a fuller sense ( redacting that which she wishes to ( ? ) )

Richard

9/25/2020 12:16:02 pm

Accessed breakfornews.com, but where is page 46?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 12:20:02 pm

If you access via Eleanor Terry Webster , at Google images then you will be right in there , at Page 41....then just access Page 46 .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 12:34:37 pm

Interesting what '' Fintan '' , the site admin guy says , in the next post following :

'' He's a slime-ball....he's the guy ...''

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 12:40:27 pm

On Page 43 , scroll down about one third again - then you will see a much better composite shot of '' The Bearded Man '' .

That's the Zodiac ....me thinks .

Richard

9/25/2020 12:41:55 pm

Could be any number of nutjobs, but regardless worthy of having a look at. Somebody was certainly pissed about the serial murderer seemingly getting away with many crimes. The code and Eve stating 15 miles from Phildelphia, suggests the letter was mailed from Glassboro or Pitman in Gloucester County.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 01:01:40 pm

Tantalising that '' slime-ball '' may have handwritten the address on the envelope ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/25/2020 03:40:41 pm

Leonard '' The Quahog '' Paradiso , died on February 27th 2008 , age 65 , in prison , of testicular cancer .

On hearing the news , Joan Webster's father George said :

'' I'm glad . It's very unchristian , but I can't think of anything better to say .''

The typed letter from '' Anonymous '' was sent six months following Paradiso's death .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 09:40:09 am

Interesting , Richard , that you spotted the reference to '' serial murderer '' , in the '' Anonymous '' letter .

On an '' in the open '' basis , with regard to Joan Webster's murder , the notion of a serial killer , had never been mentioned , and certainly not by the press .

Naturally , and as Eve Carson has alluded to , in the past , Gareth Penn holds a place , but only really , how Penn was perceived by investigating police and George Webster , in particular .

To an extent , the same goes for Ray Grant . The Webster family were open to theories , but it does appear that when Ray Grant started to modify his theory , the notion of a Zodiac Killer involvement , with its inevitable serial murderer tag , became a little tired on the ears of both family and investigating police .

So...who knows ( ? ) . The '' serial murderer '' reference might be a giveaway of sorts .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 11:26:13 am

Serial Killers that were taxi drivers :

Paul Durousseau - The Jacksonville Strangler .

Convicted of raping and murdering 7 women ,between 1997 and 2003 . A part-time taxi-driver , until dishonourably discharged from the U.S.Army , in 1999 for handling stolen goods - and yet escaped a court martial , in 1997 for abducting and raping a women .

Could this be ( Durousseau ? ) whom the letter writer '' Anonymous '' , refers to as an example of someone killing women , whether it be using their car or cab ?

Toots

9/26/2020 10:28:24 am

This is off topic, but I hope someone can recall
where I read that a 1970s murder victim's (maybe Santa Rosa) girlfriend told police that she was going on a date with someone they called "Playboy Johnnie". It might have been Carol Hilburn, or it might have been one of the Santa Rosa Hitchikers victims.

Anyone recall? Thanks.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 11:33:22 am

Any thoughts Toots ( ? ) , on the '' Anonymous '' letter referred and referenced , in the previous comments .

Sent from close to George & Eleanor Webster's retirement home , in August 2008 , to an address in MA .

Richard

9/26/2020 11:52:33 am

Have you asked Eve Carson her opinion Rubislaw?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 12:12:38 pm

I'm not a member of websleuths , nor related to Eve , unlike Toots .

Toots

9/26/2020 04:53:27 pm

I'll take a look...sorry, was out enjoying the world today.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 05:10:09 pm

Thanks Toots - no pressure , naturally .

It's just that she has only offered a postmark and postage stamp , as a sample to compliment the typed letter ( Anonymous ) .

There will clearly be details on information received , that she does not wish to share . But , if she just realised that a few of us '' out there '' are simply desperate to get to the truth , she might offer a little bit more ( ? ) .

It's a given that Joan's case turned into a '' dog's dinner '' on justice delivered , and understand that Eve has been hard at it , for at least eleven years .

Richard link

9/26/2020 11:50:03 am

You're not referring to Ted Bundy are you.
"Not long after we started spending time together, he came over one night and said he had something very important to tell me, something that might change my opinion of him. Shaking with nervousness, he told me that he was illegitimate. His mother gave birth to him in a home for unwed mothers in the East, he said, and they moved to Tacoma to live with relatives when he was very small. Then she married Johnnie Bundy and had four more children. Johnnie Bundy had adopted him, but Ted knew nothing about it until he was a teenager..“She never even had the decency to tell me herself,” he said bitterly".

Toots

9/26/2020 06:27:38 pm

A couple questions I have about the "Anonymous'' letter that Eve possesses.

How does she know the letter was sent from George Webster's retirement town? Did it have a return address from there...must be.

Since the post mark is from South Jersey, NJ, it was obviously mailed from there. Because a letter dropped in a mailbox near Newtown Square, PA wouldn't get sent to South Jersey for a postmark...to be sent to MA.

I have a couple of thoughts on why it would be postmarked from South Jersey. As a side note, South Jersey area is known as the "Shore" beaches from Atlantic City down south to Cape May, NJ.

Of course, my POI's family still has beach homes in that area.
Another possibility, albeit a bit of a rabbit hole, is that the mafia played a part in Joan Webster. Atlantic City, NJ today is still the home of past Philly mob boss.

Toots

9/26/2020 06:30:49 pm

Also, the anonymous letter from 2009 had a Liberty Bell stamp, which as we all know is from Philadelphia, PA.

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 06:40:09 pm

Most interesting , Toots , and the details you mention are certainly possible .

The letter is dated August 23rd 2008 - so is it the case there is a contradiction with the postmark - or just Eve misstating ( ? ) .

If we were to see the envelope in full , or the fullness that she is willing to reveal , it would be a huge help .

And, we might be able to offer her some information , in return .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 07:31:14 pm

I have looked again at her posting , following the display of the letter .

Eve seems to think that it was posted in South Jersey NJ .

But , what's really interesting is , that Eve infers she received this letter (..second-hand , of course...) from an independent source , that would ( probably ) have not been Essex County D.A. , or FBI .

It may be that Eve has elected to place her own redactions ( ? ) .

I wonder what or why the extra masking ( ? ) , if that is the case .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 08:51:23 pm

If '' Anonymous '' was letting off steam at the injustice of the U.S. Army , in effect '' allow '' the Jacksonville Strangler go on to rape and murder 7 innocent women , then he would probably be directing his rant at the person occupying the position of the '' Judge Advocate General of the U.S.Army '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/26/2020 09:22:48 pm

Since Eva Carson is the recipient of this second-hand letter and , presumably to assist her in her investigations then , it could be that the envelope reveals suggestions that it was ( falsely ) from George Webster ( ? ) . The inference being that a man ( George ) is outraged with the U.S.Army's standards of justice , given that he is the father of a murdered daughter who , was last seen getting into a taxi .

So , if there is any evidence on the '' Anonymous '' letter's envelope that it is ( falsely ) from George , it would increase the chances that '' Anonymous '' is the Zodiac .

Motive : to embarrass George Webster , by someone who saw this form of extortion as preferable to one that might involve procuring money from a known wealthy man .

Roger

9/26/2020 08:13:38 pm

Although police sketches of the past can look rather childish and cartoonish, they do provide general facial traits and resemblances and these can provide similarities with other sketches and real life people. These sketches can be used in tangent with modern DNA technology to help solve old crime cases. The DNA work must obviously remain the sole domain of the experts in lab coats, but those old sketches are not entirely subjective, particularly if we have more than one sketch. For instance, if we compare the three Lake Berryessa sketches with the sketches from the Hakari and Bennallack cases we find something very interesting. They all seem to reveal resemblance between the suspects across multiple crime cases. In the Hakari case the man with the beard looks very much like the same man, at that time unshaven, from the Bennallack and Lake Berryessa cases. This suspect looks pretty much the same throughout. He has those same "sad" yet intense eyes, probably due to a tendency to stare while frowning and squinting. He has a rather pale Caucasian complexion, slightly roundish face, small nose, thin lips, darkish hair. His hair, eyebrows, and facial proportions are much the same overall. He has flattish ears. His hair is combed the same way in much the same style. There is an obvious tendency to slick back the hair, which probably soon falls forward on his forehead, either straight or in waves. The shaven individual from the Hakari case has a more elongated face shape, but there are also a lot of similarities overall, which may suggest shared familial traits. This is what makes it so interesting!

Unfortunately if ever the labs produced a DNA phenotype of the Bennallack suspect, this has never been made public by the detectives. I am sure he will look generally like the suspect sketches. The phenotypes often provide the details that are greatly lacking from the sketches and that can significantly help the identification of a suspect. So it is a great pity if a phenotype has not been re-constructed from the full DNA profile. The detectives on that case should consider doing this.

If the Zodiac case is ever solved, I think it will come from "peripheral" cases like these. A lot of people have already noticed similarities between these sketches and the photos and sketches of the young Joseph DeAngelo, but I have a hunch this guy was someone else. Obviously DeAngelo's DNA and prints would have been compared for possible Zodiac and Bennallack matches by now and ruled out. Of course what is not known by we amateurs is whether there has ever been a match between the markers on the Zodiac DNA and those of the Bennallack case. If these provided a match that would make things very interesting indeed!

Toots

9/27/2020 01:14:16 pm

Eve has told me that there were 2 anonymous letters. One sent on August 23, 2008 to someone in MA. Another letter sent to Eve on Jan 22, 2009.

I stand corrected, the zip code postmark beginning with 080## is not the south jersey beaches

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 01:32:51 pm

Within the context of the case , this is great to hear , Toots .

Do you think there is a chance of her posting more of the letter ( s ) , and envelope ( s ) ?

Toots

9/27/2020 04:36:57 pm

Ive asked her, lets see if she will post them

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 05:07:52 pm

Thanks for your efforts , Toots .

I hope Eve feels that she can reveal a bit more . For every little bit might count to a greater knowledge . Particularly , in light of the Santa Clause find .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/27/2020 06:07:21 pm

'' Santa Clause '' ( ? ) - a Freudian slip .

George took such a bashing - and he didn't know where it was coming from , half the time . If you start off , by believing that someone took your daughter away from you , to get to you or your money , then it can be difficult to shake off that belief .

'' Someone '' took George's daughter away from him - but it doesn't look likely that it was to get to George , Then that '' someone '' elected to psychologically torture George , while he was busy sorting through those that wanted the money that he was offering , in return for knowledge about his daughter's disappearance .

All that one has to understand is , that no amount of money was going to persuade the second taxi driver , at Logan Airport , to come forward .

And , since George had made up his mind that the second taxi driver was Lenny Paradiso , then he was , retrospectively , never going to find out the truth .

Toots

9/28/2020 07:44:32 am

Santa Clause also be an an anagram for
Satan Clause

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 07:51:14 am

.....and the pun '' Santa Claws ''

All from the man that held sentimentality with '' Christmass '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 06:45:32 am

It was a woman named Patty Bono , that first fingered Lenny Paradiso , to George and investigating police .

Subsequently , she and a few other woman testified to cases of Paradiso having been physically abusive to women , at pre-trial hearings , before Paradiso stood trial for the murder of Marie Iannuzzi . Marie Iannuzzi , described as an '' unemployed waitress '', was the girlfriend of David Doyle who , carried convictions for a series of baggage thefts , at Logan Airport . Doyle was also a known acquaintance of Paradiso .

The '' Star witness '' at Paradiso's trial was a man named Robert Bond who , had shared a cell in prison with Paradiso , and could recount Paradiso admitting that he was responsible for the deaths of both Marie Iannuzzi and Joan Webster . Bond was serving a long sentence for having murdered both of his ex-wives , and stood to gain a reduced sentence , for giving his testimony .

The deaths of Iannuzzi and Webster were claimed to have been taken , on Paradiso's fishing boat . The boat had subsequently been scuppered , and the inference was also that Paradiso had deliberately sunk the boat , in order to destroy potential evidence . That Paradiso had probably scuppered his boat in order to defraud the boat's insurers , probably didn't help him .

One could barely have made this stuff up as a potent prosecution of Paradiso , but it seems that with all the publicity surrounding the disappearance of a '' High Society '' young woman , the die was already cast , with no escape for '' The Quahog '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 07:13:03 am

Leonard Paradiso found guilty of the murder of Marie Iannuzzi in 1982 , and died in prison in 2008 , protesting his innocence to he end .

Prosecuting lawyer , Timothy Burke , subsequently went on to write the successfully published book '' The Paradiso Files - on the trail of Boston's Unknown Serial Killer '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 07:28:01 pm

How very convenient ?

I see now that Paradiso was acquitted , in February 1985 , of attempting to defraud the insurers of his fishing boat , by deliberately sinking it .

Now , there could be no question that he had sunk it , for purposes of concealing evidence incriminating him in the murders of Ms.Iannuzzi and Ms.Webster .

The '' stitch-up '' just went on and on ( ? ) .

The report on Paradiso's acquittal for attempted fraud , also made mention that he was about to stand trial for bankruptcy fraud , just two months away , in April .

So , the authorities then , seemed determined to blacken Paradiso's name , for good . and never let him see the light of day . again .

As Eve Carson claims , there is evidence , anyway , that Paradiso's boat had already been sunk '' before '' Joan Webster even went missing .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/28/2020 05:55:54 pm

With thoughts of the possibility of more Zodiac letters emerging , with '' Anonymous '' ( August 2008 ) and now news of hoaxer's letter to Eve Carson , in 2009 , I have returned to look at the letter addressed to the IRS Office in Knoxville , TN , and postmarked May 27th 2009 , from '' St.Michael + ''.

( Rev.Billy Graham FBI File 2 , Page 244 - 247 )

What appears to be the case is that two letters are actually being presented by the FBI , with the '' other '' letter being superimposed on the envelope of the IRS Knoxville one which includes such gems , as :

AMERCIA
Jew-els
IRA EL

When might this second letter , also written by '' St.Michael +'' , have been sent ?

The clue may well be , with some tiny writing on the IRS Knoxville letter .

'' Dear ( Mr.Taxman ? ) , Tell ( Robert Graysmith ? ) that if he wants to be my friend He had better come...''

At this point , is superimposed atop a circle , the following :

J Done 6 / 2 / 09 WP

It does seem , therefore , that there is a date ( 6 / 2 / 09 ) , between '' JWP '' .

June 2nd 2009.....and '' JWP '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 01:49:28 pm

An assortment of eccentric and interesting expressions and statements , as appearing on the IRS Knoxville envelope , includes

Tri - Tetra 7

Translates to :

3 - 4 7

The Zodiac postscript that chrystallizes his decision to present a combination of truths and lies , is the one appearing in the Dripping Pen Card of November 8th 1969 , which transpired to be the Zodiac's claimed victim count , based on his Bay area attacks .

Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7

On the Knoxville IRS envelope , it certainly appears as if this is an allusion to his '' cornerstone '' claim :

Tri ( Faraday , Jensen , Ferrin ) - Tetra ( Snoozy , Furlong , Shepard , Stine ) ( = ) 7

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 09:48:24 pm

Well , well ( ? )

Rev.Billy Graham FBI File 2 . Page 244

This collection of doodled references and words .pseudo political ; pseudo religious . and pseudo scientific , include :

'' Eve ''

And has '' Adam = Atom '' above it , if ( ? ) related , or not .

But , maybe '' Eve '' is a reference to Eve Carson ( ? ) .

After all , the correspondence is probably , June 2nd 2009 , and Ms.Carson is claiming that she has received a letter of extortion , related to the Joan Webster case , from 2009 ....at the time that Ms.Carson appears to have started putting her message out about Joan's lack of justice , and on the internet , in particular .

Does '' Eve '' refer to Eve Carson ?

Rubislaw 32 link

9/29/2020 10:14:49 pm

I wonder if Ms.Carson might recognise anything else ?

Like AMER CIA , for example .

Rubislaw 32 link

9/30/2020 05:17:57 am

Hi Toots . If you could just point Ms.Carson in the direction of the Billy Graham FBI File 2 , Page 244 . Perhaps she might recognise something there , with her extortionist , from 2009 ( ? ) .

Naturally , Ms.Carson is under no obligation to share , but would be helpful .

I have found that sometimes is the case that individuals acquire unease when finding themselves '' too close for comfort '' with aspects of a case emerging .

But , there is nothing to fear , when in pursuit of justice .

The ''authorities '' resort to pettiness , at times . That's just a sign that one is getting close , Eve Carson will know this herself , all too well .

Toots

9/30/2020 07:35:47 pm

Rubislaw,

I've passed on the info. I saw the Adam = Atom Eve. What are your thoughts on it? I didnt recognize much, except for the Liberty Bell stamp.

https://vault.fbi.gov/william-billy-graham/William%20Billy%20Graham%20Part%2002%20of%2003/view

Rubislaw 32 link

9/30/2020 08:29:30 pm

Thanks again Toots .

Well , one other aspect that occurred to me , was a certain amount of '' silliness '' on the scientific front , and thoughts about a possible dig at George Webster's links with ITT , and their work in aerospace . Plus the knowledge that the ITT corporation was being used as a front , in foreign countries , such as Chile .

Some double meanings there also . '' Jehovah Java '' is a coffee shop chain that supports the drug rehabilitation organization , called '' Hope '' , for instance .

It really comes down to '' ammunition '' for a hoaxer , with of course , the possibility that the hoaxer is the Zodiac .

It would be quite something if Eve spotted familiar links . Not least that this same hoaxer appears to be unhappy with Robert Graysmith .

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 06:16:03 am

....and , for handwriting buffs , if it really needed to be pointed out , it is the use of the word '' light '' , and its comparison with the Zodiac's use , in a bomb diagram .

Ouch .

Roger

10/1/2020 03:59:09 pm

Handwriting analysis is virtually useless in the Zodiac case. For my money, the best match for Zodiac's handwriting so far has been that of the Reverend Edward W Fliger. That fact alone should be telling us something about the veracity of handwriting comparisons.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 06:39:46 pm

I tend to agree Roger , and someone as potentially as prolific a hoaxer , as the Zodiac , is unlikely to enter into this psychological flawed pastime , without coming armed with a number of different styles , and probably contrived extents of tidiness or seeming effort .

Toots

10/1/2020 01:59:36 pm

Rubislaw,
A few things I noticed on the Billy Graham extortion letters with possible connections to Zodiac;

1) letter was postmarked on St. Patrick's Day, 3/17/88

2) DRAGON - p.136, writing looks very similar to the fancy, curvy writing from the "Sorry to Hear Your Ass is Dragon"

3) DRAGON - p.244, letter references Revelations Chapter 12, verse 7, which is
Revelation 12:7, NIV: "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Revelation 12:7, NIV: "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 03:14:12 pm

Oh yes , the March 17th 1988 letter , from Cincinnati , Ohio . The month before the New Canaan letters .

Still on the Billy Graham FBI File 2 , for handwriting buffs , I think you will find Page 19 a '' veritable feast '' for Zodiac comparison ( June 1979 ) .

If you click my name here , it gets you straight into '' ZKM '' . Then access '' Rev.Billy Graham - The Zodiac's Devil ? '' - a thread found in the Misc. section . I have made a number of page references , from the Billy Graham FBI File 2 , in that thread .

One should bear in mind that the FBI published their Billy Graham File , within the first year of Graham's death - a rarity .

In addition , that the file was published , officially , on December 18th 2018 - just three days following the debut of the '' 2001 New Year's Card '' , in the SF Chronicle .

Roger

10/1/2020 04:22:12 pm

One could just as easily argue a case that the detectives writing on page 12 is a good match for the Zodiac. Sorry but I fail to see any link at all between any of this Billy Graham stuff and Zodiac. It is a bit like mixing enamel and acrylic paint together and hoping it will stick. lol!

Said Alice

10/1/2020 04:29:53 pm

About the only conclusion anybody could ever possibly arrive at after reading the above soliloquies, is that you can always spot the ones who have been down the rabbit hole for too long.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 04:45:37 pm

Such observations indeed , '' Said Alice '' , but in this case we do actually have something of a communication going with a bereaved of victim who , is at least trying as hard as we are , to get to the truth .

And , more specifically an actual letter of extortion made to that bereaved of victim , to compare with a particular letter identified , by proximity of time , and her Christian name .

Now....I don't expect the moon , nor all the stars surrounding , but this is the real essence of sleuthing , as opposed to the '' wind bag '' approach of sitting on a wall , ready to pour scorn , simply because all that that is left for those who , have admitted failure , and somehow believe that their now adopted deconstructionist philosophy , is going to impress others .

in the words of a worthy and hard-working contributor ,Judith :

'' Why are you here ? ''

Said Alice

10/1/2020 05:01:44 pm

More to the point, why are YOU here? Oh that's right, clearly to DOMINATE every single commentary on every single page with your bizarre and rambling curiosities each line spaced out so as to take up the most space, get maximum exposure and attention, and fill the void. Then you tell those who disagree with you that they have no right to be here. What a rather ironic choice of words. "Wind bag sitting on the wall". That sounds entirely correct from he who wrote it.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 05:10:02 pm

More to whose point ?

Your pointless and fatuous point ?

Stick to the agenda of Eve Carson's extortion .

Or , just butt out , while we await some feedback from Ms.Carson .

Toots

10/1/2020 06:56:55 pm

Ms. Carson got back to me...she reviewed the Billy Graham letters and didnt see any connection to the letters she received. She is certain she knows who sent the letters and believes they were sent to discourage the truth of the botched investigation of Joan Webster coming out

Rubislaw 32 link

10/1/2020 07:28:04 pm

Well , that's good of her to allocate her time , and I presume she appreciates your approaches made , in good faith .

I wonder if she will post her letter , as well as the associate's letter ( ? ) . Would still like to see that envelope , but we must settle for what we can get .

I see part of Ms.Carson's mission is to persuade others , and particularly those who contributed to Paradiso's unsafe conviction ,to admit that they were wrong . Fair enough . But , unlikely to bring closer , the identity of the second taxi driver .

Mr.Penn and Mr.Grant made their Zodiac related moves , based on what they believed . No cigar .

But , we still have the Santa Claus card . And , to misquote '' Rick '' in Casablanca : '' We will always have the Santa Claus card ''.

More correspondences may yet become available .

Thanks Toots .

Said Alice

10/1/2020 09:11:31 pm

Stick to YOUR agenda,

you must surely mean ?

I will post this like the above comment , , ,

double spaced , and paragraphed , , ,

for absolutely no apparent reason.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/2/2020 03:21:50 am

I can't assist you , Said Alice , with the pointlessness and irrelevance of your remarks .

If you could actually add something , if only to inspire me and others , it would be good to hear .

Comments are closed.

PARABON NANOLABS AND THE SEARCH FOR ZODIAC DNA

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