ONE BLOCK TOO FAR

4/11/2018

There are no images of the Paul Stine trip sheet from Presidio Heights, so we have to take on word that the destination chosen by the Zodiac Killer was the intersection of Washington and Maple. However, the taxicab was discovered one block further at the intersection of Washington and Cherry. What was the reason for this discrepancy?
#1. Paul Stine was murdered at Washington and Maple and the Zodiac Killer drove the taxicab one block further.
#2. Paul Stine was murdered before Washington and Maple and the Zodiac Killer drove the taxicab to Washington and Cherry.
#3. The Zodiac Killer intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington and Maple, but the presence of people on the sidewalk or in vehicles at this location forced him to change his plans.
#4. The Zodiac Killer intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington and Cherry, he simply stated Washington and Maple to throw investigators off the mark.
#5. The Zodiac Killer intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington and Cherry, he simply made a mistake in giving the destination as Washington and Maple, and realized this on his approach to the area or somewhere en route.
#6. The Zodiac intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington and Maple, but had second thoughts (or exhibited hesitation) before ultimately settling on murder one block later.
#7. Another scenario.

44 Comments

Richard

4/11/2018 03:04:05 am

This may be stretching a little and probably indicates hindsight of what the investigators now know to be the case. In the 2007 Zodiac documentary Armond Pelissetti stated they were responding to an assault and robbery of a taxicab driver. https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=1h13m44s
In a much earlier documentary AP states they responded 217, which is police code for a shooting, not assault and robbery.
https://youtu.be/hKKQJLpLLBU?t=4m38s
This was the number on the police report next to the time of 9.58 pm, when they were supposedly unaware it was a shooting (possibly written with hindsight) http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html
In the Zodiac 2007 documentary Donald Fouke states they responded to a shooting https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=1h15m43s
I wonder if two calls were received that night leading to a 217 radio message from one caller and possibly the NMA description, and the assault and robbery from the three teenagers, thereby creating confusion. There was after all an 8-year old eyewitness in the murder of Paul Stine. Did a second call come in from anyone other than the 8-year old or his family-someone on Washington St that night, saying they heard a shot, but it was dark enough they couldn't make out the individual as previously suggested: For example: Telephone caller " I heard a shot by the corner of Washington and Cherry." Telephone dispatcher "can you give me a description." Telephone caller "I couldn't make out his face...it was dark." Hence the confusion. The three teenagers could make out his face, leading some to question how this confusion occurred. This other caller may have not offered their details and with such a limited 2 page police report, it was never mentioned. The police report was co-signed by Armond Pelissetti, who interacted with the teenagers, hence their inclusion in the police report at 6.29 am the following morning. But the dispatcher, who is unknown, may have received more than one call that evening. With a gunshot occurring only a matter of yards from many residences, it is conceivable somebody heard it, even if the kids didn't. Just something to consider.
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/states/ca/san_francisco.txt

Richard

4/11/2018 03:34:42 am

909 (217). Interview a Citizen (shooting).
211- Robbery.
216- Shots fired.
240- Assault/Battery
https://scansf.com/sfpd_radio_codes.txt

Ruboslaw 32 link

4/11/2018 03:55:25 am

What an excellent composite image,Richard.

It really gives the observer a sense of space and layout.And,at a close to standing height.

I choose your #3 The Zodiac Killer intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington at Maple,but the presence of people on the sidewalk or in vehicles at this location,forced him to change plans.

I have referred to reasons,in the past.It is more of interest to me what others might think,and their reasons why.

This ''crime scene location'' conundrum has a number of possible solutions,as you have illustrated.

And remains an elusive enigma.

Richard

4/11/2018 04:29:35 am

"I choose your #3 The Zodiac Killer intended to murder Paul Stine at Washington at Maple,but the presence of people on the sidewalk or in vehicles at this location,forced him to change plans."
That's what I reckon.

John

4/11/2018 05:25:46 am

I believe the Zodiac followed his plan to a T that night. The destination was always Washington and Cherry, the way Zodiac had planned it. Now, Rubislaw and Richard, I don't disagree with your assessment that people in the area may have forced Zodiac to change his plans. It certainly could have happened. The only reason I don't lean in that direction is because if there were people in the area the Zodiac wouldn't have taken the time to stick around after the murder and cut pieces of Stine's shirt and wipe the cab of fingerprints. The crime scene was too "small" ....meaning the distance between houses/cars/people and the Zodiac was very small. He had to act fast and be certain no one saw him.

Richard

4/11/2018 05:45:45 am

I still think there is good case to be made for a Washington and Maple murder because of the blood pattern on Paul Stine's shirt, inconsistent with Stine immediately falling to his right side as depicted in the 2007 Zodiac movie. What do you think the reason is behind the taxicab being one block further than the trip sheet John.

John

4/11/2018 07:32:13 am

Regarding the trip sheet, it could have been Zodiac's way of throwing off the police (making them think the crime was committed at Washington and Maple) or just messing around with them. Now, Zodiac may very well have told Stine that he wanted to go to Washington and Maple. I don't disagree with that. As he approached the area, Zodiac told Stine to drive a block further to where the crime was supposed to be committed....the intended location. That doesn't necessarily mean someone was in the area and forced Zodiac to change the plan. Now, Stine thinks nothing of this and drives to Washington and Cherry with the intention of changing the information on the trip sheet after Zodiac has left the cab. As we know Stine didn't make it...and Washington and Maple was never changed to Washington and Cherry.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/11/2018 06:01:24 am

Certainly of interest what you have proffered,John.

One of the enduring mysteries of that evening was,the fact that ''Washington and Maple'' was entered on Stine's trip sheet.And yet,we know that Stine's cab came to rest at ''Washington and Cherry''.

In addition,that Zodiac had referred to ''Washington and Maple'' in his subsequent letter.The letter may have been partly ''pre-prepared''.

I believe the point being,that Zodiac always had intended that the execution of a taxi driver,should take place at ''Washington and Maple''.....and further infers that Zodiac had either requested this destination of Stine.....or,that Stine and Zodiac had agreed that ''Washington and Maple'' would be the ''approximate'' destination.....that,which would be entered on Stine's trip sheet.

Just on a matter of suggestion,it must have crossed Zodiac's mind,that he may not be able to carry out an attack,of that nature,and in that location......without the possibility of some element of peripheral witnessing [?].

Sometimes,we might underestimate,the self acceptance of Zodiac,that he was prepared to show a brazenness,perhaps [?].

That,for example,he banked on a ''gamble'' that,in the heat of the moment,and given the violent content of his actions....that no innocent bystanders,would be foolish enough,to attempt to be a hero.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/11/2018 07:54:06 am

I am all in for : ''As they approached the area,Zodiac told Stine to drive a block further ''.

Precise reason,though,is uncertain.

Is anyone aware of confirmed assortment of pedestrians,in relation to the ''Washington and Maple'' block ?

Mr.X and Fido,for example [?].

Richard

4/11/2018 08:04:46 am

Well, Fido is a possibility. But Fido and X would have been there at 9.54 pm and towards the top of Maple, by Jackson, at around 10.06 pm. So, his journey up Maple wasn't 10 minutes, although he could have gone somewhere else first. Whichever intersection Zodiac chose, it was still incredibly risky. Let's not forget, even at Washington and Cherry he has two blind corners to the left and immediate right. Anybody could have come around these corners at any time. With a gun (and possible partial disguise) he probably thought it was worth the risk. Either that or he frankly didn't care.

Richard

4/11/2018 08:05:44 am

Sorry, 12 minutes.

Lemonboy

4/11/2018 01:27:58 pm

Agreed Richard on the him not caring or maybe even him wanting to get caught. Every thing had to go right for him and it did.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/11/2018 10:33:07 am

Thanks Richard.

From official documentation,we can't be certain.But,as you have managed to put so much minutia together,more accurate estimates can be made.

As you have expressed,Zodiac really was banking on a lot of good fortune.

It's a shame that Fido didn't chase him.

Judith

4/11/2018 10:44:16 am

Was the pick up in front of the St. Francis? "Well laid plans of mice and men." A favorite saying of PSP

Richard

4/11/2018 10:51:31 am

Graysmith touted the Westin St Francis in his book. Also, Harvey Hines' report stated this "In looking at an area map of San Francisco, I found 217 Eddy Street appeared to only be two to three blocks from where Paul Stine picked up the Zodiac on October 11, 1969. I then called Inspector Dave Toschi at the SFPD and got more details on the Stine Killing. Toschi said that they had determined that the killer had called for a cab using the public payphone located at Union Square. Toschi said the cab then picked the killer up and drove to the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets."

Rubislaw 32 link

4/11/2018 10:56:06 am

Sir Walter Scott,Judith.

I believe that Graysmith had reckoned on St.Francis hotel,being the pick up.

The general view,is in the vicinity of Union square.Just at the time that audiences exiting from theatre shows,was starting to take place.

And,a presumed deliberate part of Zodiac's planning.

Rubbery_Coleslaw

4/12/2018 05:45:30 am

Often with serial killers it seems to be a case of right place right time for the psycho, wrong place wrong time for the hapless victim(s). Did the Zodiac have total control over his urges to kill? Or was he waiting for some voice in his head to say "Now is the time"?

We will never know for sure.

Judith

4/12/2018 07:16:25 am

Those hideous schizophrenic voices and they never say anything positive, do they?It's always something horrible and negative as if the Devil Himself has hosted up inside of this person. But I believe the Zodiac Killer was an organized killer, there was planning and stalking. But as everyone knows things don't always go as planned.
The irony of it all. On another topic, can someone please help me. Do you know who made the cards that the Zodiac Killer sent in? Was it the same company for each card? I know they're not Hallmark's, please let me know. Hoping to have a treat for you shortly.

Richard

4/12/2018 07:33:00 am

*The American Greetings Card Company was founded in Brooklyn, Ohio in 1906 by Jacob Sapirstein, a Polish immigrant. It was originally called the Sapirstein Greeting Card Company.
The Dragon Card was a Jolly Roger brand greetings card of a prospector riding on the back of a dragon.
To name but two.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/12/2018 11:15:33 am

Richard,if I could possibly ask you,though more of a ''rainy day'' question.

Have you ever focused on the abstract ''cross and bones'' symbol,on the back of the Dragon Card....next to Jolly Roger ?

The ''bones'' appear to be a fine painter's brush,and old fashioned fountain pen.The ''skull'' is a bit of a mystery.Could be a bird hatching out of its egg shell.Might be a bearded man's head,hiding under a skull cap.

Have you ever performed an enlargement on it ?

Zodiac may have doctored it,in some way.

Richard

4/12/2018 12:40:39 pm

No I haven't Rubislaw. I don't exactly know where you mean. Can you place a link with this 'cross and bones' in.

Rubbery_Coleslaw

4/12/2018 06:26:17 pm

I agree Judith, just because he was probably psycho does not mean he was incapable of organization to some degree. And psychos do feel emotion the same way as sane people, just that in their case it can be excessively heightened or dulled. It is always difficult to speculate when it comes to the deranged, which is the point I was making above. Only the Zodiac knew what he was doing and why, and his brain may have been fried and a lot would have depended on how rationally he was thinking and other factors like his mood would have affected the proceedings. So was it part organization, part acting out on crazy urges. How much of each, who would know? And how all this played out as a murder and for what reason, is all really just wild speculation at best. from a criminal point of view, we can only look at what is in the actual reports about what he did and where. But I guess this is what is in doubt, hence the idle speculation. :-)

Rubislaw 32 link

4/12/2018 02:18:38 pm

...sorry,Richard,the back of the Dragon Card.

And,of course,mean't in full,''Skull and Crossbones''.

[...have an exciting ''Zodiac's Bident'',on the go,at present...].

Richard

4/12/2018 02:41:09 pm

I cannot tell if anything has been added to this particular logo. Without an original from 1970 and doing a comparison I couldn't tell. On first inspection nothing seems unusual.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/12/2018 02:56:25 pm

Thanks for looking,anyway.

It just seems obviously ''cartoonesque'',and bears little actual resemblance to the conventional ''Skull and Crossbones''.

Richard

4/12/2018 03:15:57 pm

No it hasn't been doctored by Zodiac Rubislaw- here is a non-Zodiac Jolly Roger card with an identical logo. Scroll down page here
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/troy-houghton-aka-haughton-t4692-s450.html

Rubislaw 32 link

4/12/2018 04:56:35 pm

Thanks for the reference.....bearded man's head,with cloth improvised hat.

And no doctoring,as you have intimated.

Richard

4/12/2018 03:55:24 pm

Targets (1968)- Super X ammunition, shooting pigs, shooting at vehicles and crosshairs. Released 15th August 1968.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=38&v=oiSc3xAXX5g

Richard

4/12/2018 04:15:43 pm

Does anybody know what the M- like symbol on the object attached to the Xeroxed keys, on the Eureka card is.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/12/2018 05:17:10 pm

It's a small torch for guidance use of keys,in the dark,Richard.

I think the ''M'' is just an impression left,through the torch being damaged,by chipping [...but stand corrected....].

There have been a number of theories on the torch's source.''BUX'' and ''BUYING'' among them....but with no lead.

About two years ago,I came across a torch/flashlight company,called ''BUYHERE''.They are a ''top twenty'' manufacturer,in the global market.Where ''Maglite'' and ''Porche'' are ''top two''.

So,precise source of a circa 80's pen torchlight,made by ''BUYHERE'',could be a nice little research job,for someone [?].

Karen C

4/13/2018 03:57:50 pm

Careful Richard, the conspiracy theorists will probably try to tell you this "clearly" stands for MK-Ultra. LOL!

Rubislaw 32 link

4/13/2018 05:18:04 am

Thanks for the reference for Targets [1968],Richard.The story of the Texas Tower Shooter,Charles Whitman.It had escaped my notice,for a while.

And,thanks to Connolly and BB,for the COINTELPRO inspiration.This has helped me to uncover ''Zodiac's Bident''....a cipher ''imprint'',which tells the story of events at UCLA,on January 17th 1969.

The Bident was the weapon of choice of Hades,the king of the underworld,and god of the afterlife.

''That'' Zodiac was a fast learner,and brighter than many might give him credit [!].

Karen C

4/13/2018 03:54:05 pm

''That'' Zodiac was a fast learner,and brighter than many might give him credit [!].

Oh, good grief!

Zodiac was, as some have already noted, a "legend in his own mind". He was also to some extent a genius in his own mind.

Does he deserve to be rewarded by way of further mythologizing? No!

Please don't give this nasty and sick serial killer any credit for his pretense at so-called "brilliance". He has already been over-mythologized to the point of insanity on the internet and in numerous documentaries and books.

There seem to be a lot of closet Zodiac "groupies" wanting to build this serial killer into much more than he ever actually was.

My apologies to Richard if I am incorrect about this, but last I heard this is not a "Zodiac fan club", nor is it a platform for admiring his apparent intellect, intelligence, or profundity of beliefs?

Putting him up on a pedestal for his apparent "genius" achieves what exactly, apart from being an insult to those who were brutally attacked and/or slain by this sick little menace to society?

For some people, these online forum spaces are fast becoming a vehicle for expressing their complete and utter admiration of the Zodiac, albeit oddly misplaced, rather than expressing their contempt. Such extreme bias and subjectivity, when consistently applied, must surely cloud any ability to gain a true understanding of the Zodiac as a cold-blooded murderer. Is it possible that sometimes we frail humans allow our emotions and imagination to get the better of us, making things seem far greater and more complex than they ever actually were, thereby mythologizing the subject of our research? Such mythologizing is often only a short step away from self-delusion.

Ball Tampering Police

4/13/2018 08:07:42 pm

The wrong site for your sensibilities,Karen.

You need mylittlepony.com

Karen C

4/13/2018 08:51:49 pm

Well yes, this site is to some extent, like so many other Zodiac sites, bending towards the unsensible, mainly by virtue of its most vocal and voluminous contributors.

Have we become so bored looking at the facts that we must now take our cues from the fairies at the bottom of the garden and resort to imaginative "what ifs"?

I personally wonder if a few posters who regularly contribute here are on the wrong page. Maybe conspiracyworld.com would be more to their tastes?

In any case, I am not going to take your word for it because clearly you do not speak for Richard, even though you clearly think you do. ;)

Karen C

4/13/2018 09:10:13 pm

Poster cries foul for "ball tampering", then tosses me a veiled insult in reply. :-/

Judith

4/13/2018 10:18:50 pm

Pretty sure you couldn't make it through a weekend with him Karen. My suspect was one of the most intelligent people I have ever met and I was raised by an Aerospace engineer and a woman who had her master's degree in English literature. That is not to promote who he was, it's just a fact, an unfortunate sad fact. I think most of the people on these sites are trying to solve these crimes. There's always somebody who will love Charlie Manson or want to marry Scott Peterson. What can I say?

Karen C

4/14/2018 02:39:01 am

Agreed, serial killers do often possess a kind of allure to some people, because of their enigmatic qualities. Their intelligence may be a sad fact but their application of it is warped and not admirable. I personally think the Zodiac's presumed intelligence was overrated, particularly when imaginative people keep piling more and more meaning into his gibberish. As time goes by this man is going to become more and more intelligent and brilliant through the process of such myth-making. People speculate but write as if their newfound speculation is pure fact. Myths tend to build on myths, until the subject becomes legendary. We also have to be honest. Your suspect may not have been the Zodiac.

To quote Monty Python: "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

Howard_Miller

4/14/2018 03:58:14 pm

It is always debatable whether members of Zodiac forums actually want the mystery solved or not. A lot of people have invested an enormous amount of time and energy into their pet theories and many will doubtless continue to stand by them, "come hell or high water". So even if they are proven wrong, they will still think they should have been right. Many desire it to be a case of "I told you so!". Or at least this is the fanciful scenario that they aspire to.

As for members of Zodiac forums all wanting the case to be solved... Well... lol!

Not to put too fine a point on it, if the case is solved, what will they all do with their time? Moreover I suspect the paper recyclers will do well for a while, when some Zodiac researchers dump their mountain of obsolete books, files and copious notes,collected over several decades.

The big question is, Des anyone truly believe DNA will solve the crime once and for all and satisfy everybody? Personally I do not! There will always be people who will remain dissatisfied, no matter how overwhelming the evidence may be.

As a case in point, I recall reading some years ago that the Jack the Ripper case had been solved because DNA could be inextricably linked to one of the suspects. Then came counter-claims that the researcher had made a fundamental error in his methodology which fatally undermined his case against Kosminski.

It goes without saying that even DNA evidence will never prove conclusively who the Zodiac was, because there will always be other researchers wanting their claim to fame who will persist in trying to undermine the evidence and find "fatal flaws" in the methodology. Also, if there is any chance that the DNA is impartial or potentially contaminated (likely after so many years!), this will also throw the findings into doubt.

For this reason and others, the Zodiac case will never be solved to the extent that everybody will be satisfied. The mythology surrounding the case and the factor of subjective egotism among the various "researchers", both amateur and professional, has just become too overwhelming.

Cheers

Karen C

4/14/2018 04:22:47 pm

I agree Howard. The Zodiac has become so heavily mythologized, with different "camps" polarized against each other, that few will ever be satisfied with a singular outcome.

We see this fatal problem all the time on the forums whenever people debate things like pet suspects, cipher solutions, and conspiracy theories. The way some researchers and forum members will stubbornly cling to their theories and resist all alternatives is often astonishing, to the point that people can be banned from some forums for daring to question the likelihood of a "star suspect".

The really sad thing is that many people seem blissfully unaware of just how heavily mythologized the Zodiac has become today. They have in effect become a part of the myth-making process themselves.

"There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer!" Probably the wisest movie line ever.

Many have become a living slave to the Zodiac's enigma and then help to promulgate his mythology, inevitably embellishing it, well into the future. For them, the mythology has become so great, that even things like DNA evidence will represent only a minor annoyance that they can easily undermine or work around.

Judith

4/14/2018 07:45:05 am

I have confidence that the DNA will eventually tell us who this person was, then you won't have to worry about Myths or Legends any longer. What is your reason for following these sites?

Howard_Miller

4/14/2018 04:02:06 pm

DNA "evidence" will likely only lead to the creation of new myths. See my answer above.

Drew

4/17/2018 08:42:18 am

I think Zodiac driving the cab is within the realm of possibility but if he had I think there would be more evidence than the trip sheet discrepancy, a slightly eschew parking job, and the unexplained bruising of Paul Stine. If he saw witnesses I think he would have made further readjustments than just a block as he clearly intended on spending at least a few minutes getting the shirt and couldn't have been certain no one would hear the shot. He knew they would discover the trip sheet so I don't think he cared too much about that. If he didn't wait for Stine to park at Maple before revealing the threat... if he talked with him as extensively as he did with Hartnell then perhaps Stine didn't immediately comply and a struggle could have occurred before Stine eventually came to a stop at Cherry caring little about getting flush to the curb. This theory may not count as hesitation so much as Stine didn't behave as expected. I doubt Zodiac had ever attacked a cabbie before.

John Corbin

5/7/2024 03:23:41 pm

He asked for Washington and Maple so that Stine would record THAT in the log, but he changed it to Washington and Cherry so that he would kill Stine a block away from where he parked his car. But he had SPECIFIC reasons for why he wanted 'Washington and Maple' recorded. ONLY The Montana Connection understands why. The shot from within the cab, with windows closed, would have been pretty muffled, so the kids didn’t hear it (their windows were closed and they were a good 75’ away from the cab. The Robbins kids looked down after the Zodiac shot Stine, and THEN moved around to the front seat. Surely, he got out on the passenger side, and then got in the front with Stine. In all likelihood, from the backseat, Z pushed Stine forward FIRST so that his head was hanging towards the floorboard, thus the pooling later and very little blood on the seat. In this position, he could easily untuck Stine's shirt and start the first cut into the fabric to begin TEARING the fabric, not merely cutting. This would also explain why one of the kids thought Z was stabbing Stine. ANY person with a little bit of life experience knows that woven fabric will tear easily depending upon an initial cut or tear along any direction of the threads. You don't have to have 'medic training' to be able to do this! The Zodiac didn't lie about leaving 'fake prints' either. He never left any viable ones. This is why, after 50+ years the police haven't done anything. Because they don't have squat. And, for the record, Fouke lied. He TALKED with the Zodiac, aka, Donald Lee Bujok. His report perfectly describes Bujok. Hold to your panties, kiddies, and buy a shipping crate of diapers for your shi*bombs you'll be passing!

ONE BLOCK TOO FAR

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