KATHLEEN JOHNS- ABDUCTION OR NOT

2/25/2018

Kathleen Johns, seven months pregnant, and accompanied by her 10-month-old daughter Jennifer, were traveling along Highway 132, west of Modesto, en route to Petaluma, California to visit her sick mother, when she was 'abducted' and taken on a two-hour journey around the outskirts of Tracy. She claimed it was the notorious Zodiac Killer, identifying him from a wanted poster hanging at nearby Patterson Police Station. It seems extremely odd that Kathleen Johns was taken on a two-hour journey around Tracy, California by an extremely dangerous individual, yet managed to escape into a field possibly as little as 400 meters from her abandoned car. In other words, she just happened to escape from the perpetrator's vehicle at the point she began her two-hour abduction. According to Robert Graysmith, who told her story in his Zodiac book, Kathleen Johns scooped up Jennifer and jumped from the car, dashed across the road, and leapt into an irrigation ditch surrounded by tall grass in the middle of a field. "It was all wine vineyard with a little gully and I just laid as flat as I could". As Gian Quasar stated in his excellent article: Johns made many mistakes in her retelling of the events that prove damning to her own initial story let alone the legend she later adopted. One very significant one is that she said when she escaped from “The ZODIAC” into the fields she plainly described them as vineyards (Graysmith). The only vineyards around 132 are at Bird Road. They are still there today. The only thing Johns has ever been able to clearly describe is the immediate area of where she initially stopped. No other place. link.

Drop to street level

Using the measurements on Google maps, Kathleen Johns 1957 Chevrolet station wagon, parked just east of Bird Road, could have been as little as 300-400 meters from the location she escaped into the vineyard, assuming the abductor was returning from Tracy. Kathleen Johns stated in the Robert Graysmith book "I couldn't handle it anymore, so I decided the next time he came to one of those Hollywood stops - you know - not a complete stop - that he made at the different stop signs, I was going to jump out." Suddenly the car came to a halt. The man had inadvertently driven up a freeway offramp (A short section of road which allows vehicles to enter or exit a highway; also called entrance ramp or highway ramp). Somewhere in the location (shown in the link above or image below) we have the likelihood of an intersection 'offramp' and vineyard in close proximity to one another. The police report stated "Mrs Johns then got to a roadway or highway, this part is not clear to undersigned or to the Stanislaus Deputy, Mr Lovett, but finally did get back on highway or near Highway 132, where she was given a ride by some people from Missouri". Not being clear or able to remember you were rescued a mere stone's throw from your vehicle, could be useful in an abduction claim.

The premise here, is that Kathleen Johns was not abducted, and was able to recollect or describe the vineyards and the freeway offramp, because she abandoned her vehicle and walked to the vineyard nearby. This however, would require her to disable the lug nuts on her wheel and then set the car on fire, before leaving her vehicle and carrying her daughter into the field. We also have to consider that any rescuer traveling from east to west, would likely spot the burning vehicle before they discovered her by the roadside. The anonymous good Samaritan, despite Kathleen Johns harrowing experience over two uncomfortable hours, heavily pregnant and carrying a 10-month-old child, who took the time to rescue the pair, apparently and inexplicably didn't escort her into Patterson Police Station in a show of support and comfort. The police report mentioned nothing about this eyewitness because Kathleen Johns stated "when I got to this little one-horse town, she let me off in front of the police station". This seems extremely odd, bearing in mind the concern previously exhibited by her savior. Some people have suggested this may have been an insurance job by burning her vehicle, although this seems a hell of a lot of effort, 368 miles from her San Bernardino residence, to claim such a payout. Is it possible that this was something far more creative and designed for publicity, by feeding into the Zodiac Killer story for gain. There may be three possibilities, assuming Kathleen Johns didn't disable and destroy her own vehicle, particularly bearing in mind she was pregnant with a small child.

[1] Kathleen Johns traveled with another adult, who drove her near to, or by Patterson Police Station (where she just happened to spot a picture of Zodiac who resembled her abductor), then drove the vehicle back to the predetermined location, disabled the vehicle and set it alight, taking the car keys with them. The police never recovered the vehicle's keys. [2] Kathleen Johns was rescued by the good Samaritan and taken to Patterson Police Station, while the person who traveled with her remained near the vehicle. Once Kathleen had been rescued, the accomplice grabbed the car keys, then disabled and set fire to the vehicle. [3] Kathleen Johns was telling the truth, and she truly is a victim here.

But we have to consider the story told in Robert Graysmith's book: "Kathleen gathered up Jennifer and got into the man's car. Just as they were pulling out, she noticed that the lights to her car were still on and remembered that the keys were still in the ignition. The man smiled, went back to her car, snapped off the lights, and pocketed the keys". Despite him being friendly at this juncture, she failed to ask for her keys?

It was reported in the Modesto Bee newspaper that Kathleen Johns had "set out at 4:00 pm from San Bernardino". But was this true, or was it designed to place her on Highway 132 at 11.15 pm - the time stated in the police report as her time of abduction. Kathleen Johns was seven months pregnant with a 10-month-old child. Heavily pregnant women have to visit the toilet regularly, not withstanding the fact, she was driving a 1957 Chevrolet station wagon she described in the Robert Graysmith book as junky: "The man (supposedly Zodiac) started flashing his lights off and on. My car was such a clunker I figured something was wrong with it".

From San Bernardino to Bird Road is 368 miles. It would take just over 6 hours traveling non-stop at 60 mph to reach Bird Road. That would place Kathleen Johns being pulled over at around 10:00 pm. But she was driving a "clunky" 1957 Chevrolet station wagon and was pregnant with a small child in tow. It likely took longer. We will allow an hour extra (7 hours journey time), which give or take a few minutes, would mean that an approximate 4:00 pm departure time, has her traveling towards Bird Road around 11:15 pm. However, did the truth come out when relaxed and being interviewed by Robert Graysmith at a later date, when she was far more detailed : "Kathleen Johns bundled up her ten month-old daughter, Jennifer, and left her home in San Bernardino at 7:00 pm for the trip to Petaluma, a small dairy-farming community, where her sick mother lived. It was easier to travel at night while the baby slept".

If this was the true time, it would make the abduction claim virtually impossible. A 368 mile journey with such a vehicle, in her condition, could only be achieved in just over 4 hours (7:00 pm to 11:15 pm), if you were traveling at 86 mph non-stop. But if you took 7 hours (as described above), then you would arrive at Bird Road on Highway 132 at around 2:00 am, the approximate time she was 'rescued' and taken to Patterson Police Station, thereby making the abduction story now fiction. She is either driven by her accomplice to Patterson Police Department (20-30 minute journey), who drove the vehicle back, or she is picked up by the good Samaritan from Missouri and taken to the police department. Either way, she would now arrive at the Patterson Police Station at 2:30 am. The time recorded by Sergeant Charles J McNatt.

Shawn

2/25/2018 02:24:08 pm

It is interesting that Kathleen was abducted March 22nd, 1970 on VERNALis road.

The Vernal Equinox was two days earlier on March 20, 1970.

Richard

2/25/2018 02:32:54 pm

Nice one Shawn, I never saw that one!

Drew

2/25/2018 02:25:27 pm

I find it virtually impossible to settle on an interpretation of this episode and it is all the more frustrating because if Johns was a real victim of Zodiac she obviously obtained the most thorough observations.

Without an accomplice it seems unlikely that Johns could facilitate the physicality of the ruse, but because the Johns letter pretty much corroborates the little list letter sent just two days later, I deduce that your sly actual premise is that Zodiac and Johns were in it together. That would sure be a twist!

Fabricating the elaborate details of the ride for an insurance scam is certainly an option (did she ever receive a settlement?) but the most likely and boring explanation I believe is that she was picked up by someone who may not have actually had malicious intent yet did have a striking resemblance to the very ordinary description of the Zodiac presented in the Stine sketch. That of course still leaves the burning car a mystery though. Any narrative is going to have to include coincidence or implausibly complicated planning I'm afraid. Man, I am clearly going to have to keep thinking about this over dinner!

Richard

2/25/2018 02:35:55 pm

I took that off Drew, as it didn't make sense, as you allude. It makes far more sense that Zodiac may simply have claimed the crime, after reading about her claims-after all the letter revealed nothing that wasn't already in the newspapers.

Drew

2/26/2018 11:55:31 am

"It makes far more sense that Zodiac may simply have claimed the crime, after reading about her claims-after all the letter revealed nothing that wasn't already in the newspapers."

Throughout the investigation we often speculate about Zodiac's reasons for waiting between murders and correspondences. There are suggestions that the dates may have been important, his work schedule may have been a factor, maybe he lived near Vallejo or Benicia, in cases where we are not convinced he did a crime it may be that he waits to make sure a cold crime is likely not to be solved before making a claim, etc.

In the case of Johns we have what seems to be a mere blip of a story and it would soon be apparent to any reader that little investigation was to follow. Do you believe he waits four months before making the claim (knowing he has provided zero evidence), and writes about other things in between, because he doesn't want police to be certain that he did it? If the claim was written by a hoaxer the wait is even more puzzling.

I wonder if the author (Zodiac or not) held on to the article for four months or somehow became aware of the story closer to the time of the claim. If there was no follow up mention of the incident closer to July (maybe there was and I have missed it?) the timing could suggest that Zodiac (abductor or not) had an occupation that facilitated this kind of archival research.

Ultimately I doubt it meant a great deal to Zodiac whether they believed him or not. It seems like he used the incident to set up the long winded Mikado joke that soon followed. If we do come to accept that Zodiac abducted Johns, I wonder whether that illuminates a travel route relevant to his residence or whether his admitting it actually sheds doubt on the travel route being part of his everyday life.

Thanks for any thoughts!

Richard

2/25/2018 02:40:31 pm

I meant, I took the bit about the implication Zodiac didn't write the letter, because you are correct- the reference to a 'little list' just two days later without viewing the first letter on the 24th July, makes the claim I made not realistic as you pointed out.

Richard

2/25/2018 02:44:34 pm

I removed the bottom of the article - it didn't make any sense, probably like the rest some would say!

Richard

2/25/2018 02:52:32 pm

Gian Quasar touted what you said Drew "Perhaps the truth of it was that she was picked up by a man. The gas station was closed, like she said. He drove her into Tracy, and couldn’t find help. Perhaps she freaked out. Perhaps he drove her back off into the rural dark roads to get her back. Maybe that’s all there was to it. He dumped her and sped off." But like you said, if the guy had no malicious intent, why burn the vehicle. Assuming, and it almost certainly has to be connected to the rest of the story, the burning of the vehicle was not Zodiac- then it's possible she legitimately thought the man was Zodiac, and he burnt the vehicle. But why burn the car-there's little purpose to it, unless you are creating a story to benefit not only from the connection to Zodiac, but also getting a payout from the vehicle to boot.

Richard

2/25/2018 03:01:16 pm

But I agree with Gian- that it's handy the person was from Missouri, so little chance of tracing them and upsetting the story. I know for certain that if I had picked up an upset and hysterical woman, as was reported when she was in the station, I would have felt it my duty to escort the distressed woman into the police station and given assistance to her and the police. Plus, 2 hours to arrive back at square one. This being the case, we would have to assume the person assisting her couldn't find a gas station anywhere for 2 hours. If he was supposedly threatening her, her account is sparse and he didn't ultimately appear much of a threat.

Howard

3/9/2020 12:09:03 am

She became hysterical inside the pd station after being more calm but upset in the car of the people that picked her up.They were freaked of course. She told them to drop her off at the police station! Johns thought the police would get her vehicle.She had no idea that her auto was burned !
For there to be a true contradiction means there is no possible way for there to be a solution or explanation.

Howard link

3/8/2020 11:59:44 pm

Johns had no auto insurance. She told me she was barely able to afford daily living expenses. I contacted her long time friend ms.Davis who was an RN. She told me they talked now and then about her experience. She said Johns had no insurance. She told me by phone that Kathy was hurt by the negative things said about her by Z posters. She wept one evening as she said she only wanted to help in the case if she was able. Some posters are the worst.
She affirms she was traumatized by the event.
Johns told me in person the Graysmith interview was her best her memory was functions better the as she at that time better able recall the events of that evening. Later ,her health wasn’t as good having heart disease which later took her life.

Richard

3/9/2020 04:04:16 am

"Johns told me in person the Graysmith interview was her best her memory was functions better the as she at that time better able recall the events of that evening".

My problem with that statement Howard, is that would make this statement in the Graysmith book the better version. According to Graysmith "Kathleen Johns bundled up her ten month-old daughter, Jennifer, and left her home in San Bernardino at 7:00 pm for the trip to Petaluma, a small dairy-farming community, where her sick mother lived. It was easier to travel at night while the baby slept".

She cannot travel 368 miles from her home to Highway 132 in the vehicle she owned and arrive just west of Modesto in 4 hrs 15 minutes (7 to 11:15), unless she was travelling at 86mph non-stop. So her clearer recollections in the book are flawed.

Ray Jenkins

2/25/2018 03:03:17 pm

I have no doubt that this happened to her. It would be difficult to fake the extremely distressed and hysterical state that she was in when found.

Richard

2/25/2018 03:18:30 pm

I have flip-flopped on this one countless times. For me, the story is about as confusing as the Cheri Jo Bates murder. The missing keys, the return after 2 hrs to the starting point, the changing story from a friendly man to a nasty man, the two different accounts in the field-[1] he remained in his vehicle and drove off after a few minutes [2] he headed into the field with a torch. The sudden opinion it was Lawrence Kane. This doesn't help the accounts voracity, however, it is possible she is telling the truth and she was extremely nervous and scared during the encounter, which has led to inconsistencies. If it was Zodiac, it may be that but for Jennifer, Kathleen Johns may have become Zodiac's 6th or 7th confirmed victim. Even Zodiac, the bastard that he was, drew the the line at murdering a pregnant woman with a child, unlike the ruthless Dennis Rader, where no age range was off limits. This episode is a toss up for me.

Richard

2/25/2018 03:23:42 pm

Kathleen Johns described the interior of the vehicle "as messy, she had noticed men's and children's clothing scattered about, books and papers, a black rubber handled flashlight, and two colored plastic scouring pads on the console dashboard. Kathleen estimated that the smaller patterned T-shirts were of the age range 8-12 years."
If we believe Kathleen Johns, the Zodiac having young kids possibly, may have been the deciding factor here. Betty Lou was only 16, but maybe Zodiac had his limits. The threats on schoolchildren in his earlier correspondence designed simply for fear- after all, he did say "If you cops think I'm going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads."

Ray Jenkins

2/26/2018 04:02:59 am

I think the Zodiac had intended to murder her right up until he found out she had a baby with her. The presence of a baby was something he had probably not counted on. Yes, he may have had his limits and sound reasons for them. For example if he had been abused as a child, this could explain why he seemed indecisive about harming a child. He ended up resorting to verbal threats and took her for a long and frightening ride. The discrepancies in her story are understandable. I am sure she would have been terrified to the point of losing complete track of time and place. Seconds can seem like hours, places and situations get blurred.

Richard

2/25/2018 03:35:27 pm

We also strictly don't know how long she was in the field for certain. But if she was abducted at 11.15 pm, as claimed in the police report, then after two hours (90 mins stated in part of police report) she is in the field at 1.15 am. That is 75 minutes before she arrived at the cop station at 2.30 am. It is a 30 min journey max. So, if her ordeal lasted 2 hours, we have her in the field for 45 minutes. Assuming her vehicle wasn't set alight straight away, then the abductor hung around for the best part of 45 minutes. Had he ignited it immediately, either Johns would have seen it ablaze in the distance, or her rescuer would have passed it if travelling east to west.

Shawn

2/25/2018 04:05:01 pm

I do not agree that she set her car on fire for insurance purposes.

A car can catch on fire by driving on a wheel after the tire is flat.
As shown in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvF0tJQNU_w

There is no evidence her wheel came off or had a flat. Just that her lug nuts were loose.

It could be hard to determine after the car has been burnt if she did drive on the wheel though and caused a fire or if it accidently caught on fire.

I would think cars back then were more prone to catch on fire accidently more so than cars nowadays.

Just wild speculation. She got abducted and the car caught on fire accidently when she was gone.

Richard

2/26/2018 12:34:48 am

Now this is an extremely good idea. A slow igniting fire that caught just after she abandoned her vehicle. This would certainly explain away the unusual and unnecessary actions of her abductor in setting the fire. Yes, it was a myth that her wheel fell off- only the hubcap. Another myth is that her vehicle was moved.

Judith N Chapman

2/25/2018 10:07:49 pm

My sense is that she did take a terrifying ride with potentially the Zodiac Killer. Unless you've had a baby or been pregnant you wouldn't know that the lengths that she went to would not be something that you do with a baby. How do you know she even had car insurance, it was not required back in those days, if the car was a clunker she probably only carried comprehensive insurance in case she hit another vehicle. Spare me. Apparently you've never had a terrifying ride with a psycho man behind the wheel, but I have. We will never know for sure, but we do know that the Zodiac Killer took credit for it in a letter don't we? If we believe Kathleen then we have another eyewitness physical description of the killer which aligns with the kids from San Francisco and Mike Magaue. Sometimes the police let you down.

Richard

2/26/2018 12:52:14 am

We don't know if she had vehicle insurance Judith, but the question has been brought up and touted on many forums, so it had to be mentioned. The validity of the story has always been a hot topic, which is why the abduction of Kathleen Johns is widely questioned by many. While I am split on this debate 50/50, I have learnt not to take people at face value. This is very dangerous and has led many to an untimely and horrible death. Pulling over on a deserted stretch of road because somebody is flashing their lights at you and gesturing at you is not a good idea, especially when you are a single female, or male for that matter. Neither is hitchhiking, but people still do it. Equally, taking the story on blind faith, is not recommended either. The controversy surrounding the accounts of Kathleen Johns is a fair question.

Judith N Chapman

2/26/2018 07:03:38 am

Poor Kathleen people do not create these stories and go to this kind of trouble for their own entertainment not with a baby on their hip. As I soon learned, if the authorities do not believe my story they can't help me. We do have a burnt car. Take or leave her descriptions. The interior of the vehicle she describes fits the interior of the 1965 Pontiac Grand Prix that my suspect used to drive. His aunt and uncle lived in Tracy I have been told there were many murders up and down Highway 5 which he commited. He was also connected to Child Murders. Seems like the only things going against Kathleen where that she was poor, Young, female, with no man and babies. Let me introduce you to the uneducated Hicks that run police departments and Sheriff departments up and down the state of California

Rubislaw 32 link

2/26/2018 12:11:29 pm

Nice to see a map of ''essentially'' S.F. to L.A.,and journey time,Richard.

This,I believe,Zodiac drove,on many,many occasions,as part of a ruse that he was a permanent resident of the Bay Area.

With the greatest respect to Judith,the only ''truth'' that Ms.Johns ever told,was a description of the inside of the ''other'' car.

Her lover was also a parent,I believe.

And,he felt compelled to burn hers,when their little rendez-vous went horribly wrong,on account her car failing to start again,when she had to head home.

What a pickle,''Poor Kathleen'' got herself into,with the sudden fear that her affair,as a pregnant woman with baby,would be revealed to all who knew her,and beyond.

Hence,an elaborate and over complicated plan,by her and her lover...saw him disappear of the face of the earth...and Ms.Johns having to ''face the music'',to square her ''story'' away to the police.

Luckily for her,and even though the cops didn't believe a word of it,to start with...when a report into the incident was passed on up the line to senior police....''they'' saw it as a good opportunity to officially believe her....since they might be able to encourage Zodiac,to continue corresponding,and allude to this ''abduction'' as ''one of his''.

''They'' were right [!]....and hence the reference to the ''woeman''.

Zodiac would probably have regretted admitting to this made up story,by Ms.Johns,later.....realising that the authorities were only too aware that he [Zodiac] was admitting to something,that all parties involved knew,wasn't true.

Zodiac had,in essence,conceded something,unnecessarily.....a known lie....and it weakened his perception of his own standing,in the eyes of the authorities.

All part of the intricate tapestry of the case.....I venture.

Drew

2/26/2018 12:22:12 pm

Hi there, did I miss the part where we learned that Johns was having an affair, or are you just theorizing here? You may be right of course but I have never read about anything like this. Howard Davis interviewed her and he felt she was quite credible. I certainly have my doubts, especially regarding her later claims, but this affair business is new to me.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/26/2018 12:42:57 pm

Well of course,Drew....I have only ''ventured'' it.

But,there are many aspects,that point to the credibility of this theory.

There are even,and obviously unsubstantiated,reports that Zodiac did not forgive,this ''self-inflicted'' humiliation.

That,for example,he sent a Halloween card to Ms.Johns....and followed this up with a Christmas card,three months later.

Whether Ms.Johns eventually ''ran'' to the authorities,in more tears,we may never know.

But,I believe it to be a safe bet that Zodiac will never be charged with her abduction.

Because it never happened.

Drew

2/26/2018 01:08:06 pm

I did read about that Halloween 1970 card that Johns allegedly received. Apparently she was very concerned about revealing her identity and this reservation led her to the decision to send it not to the police but to Avery, and he never received it. It is very frustrating to hear that as an explanation! I hadn't heard about the Christmas card (though a family member of Donna Lass did).

Another tale has Johns receiving a phone call from Zodiac wherein he identified her vehicle as a blue station wagon which apparently was not a detail reported publicly. Because of her emotional fragility regarding the episode throughout the decades I do believe the ride happened, but like many others I am not certain it was Zodiac and I am also not certain that the driver had malicious intent.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/26/2018 01:33:54 pm

Yes,I believe it to be yet another tale of ''Oh what a web we weave,when we practise to deceive.''

Interested to hear,Drew,that you heard that the Halloween card was sent to Paul Avery.

And,that he didn't receive it [?].

More ''intrigue'' there....sometimes these newspaper editors carry more clout,than we realise.

I am just beginning to realise this,with a certain reporter for the S,F.Chronicle.

These reporters are more in the pockets of their editors,than they like to admit to.

And,their ultimate ''paymasters''.

Drew

2/26/2018 01:41:37 pm

I read about the Halloween card to Johns on this thread on Tom's site started by Howard Davis who interviewed her.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/katleen-johns-said-zodiac-called-her-and-later-sen-t7933.html

Tahoe27

2/26/2018 02:29:26 pm

I swear that GQ guy wrote his stuff after very detailed posts I made w/photos, saying almost the same thing. ;) This is years back of course. I used to think Zodiac was the one who took KJ for her ride. After in-depth review, I changed my mind. I think it was real, just not Zodiac. She mentioned Zodiac (Examiner & Bee) and he went with it. Nothing more to it.

Judith N Chapman

2/26/2018 07:06:59 pm

So refresh my memory, Zodiac took credit for the Kathleen John incident in a letter. Did the Zodiac Killer falsely claim any other victims?

Richard

2/26/2018 11:49:22 pm

Depends on your opinion, but the questioned ones are Richard Radetich, Donna Lass, Cheri Jo Bates and possibly an inference on the car door to Debra Gaye Furlong and Kathie Ann Snoozy.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 01:35:20 am

Interesting Richard.....and nice to see those names laid out together,for consideration.

All ''probably not's'',as one might put it.

I believe that Zodiac was the extortionist,in the case of Ms.Bates.

Also,that I ''at least'' dispute that Zodiac ever alluded to Donna Lass,by inference,or otherwise.With the Pines card,as well as the Edward Adams card,and indeed the Benicia High School note.....all about attempting to incriminate William Grant.

And the ''confidential informant'' mentioned in the Husted Report,another attempt of ''Grant incrimination''.

One of the mysteries,as you have also alluded to,Richard,is the lack of actual correspondence,regarding Lake Berryessa.

It has occurred to me,that it might have been,a matter of ''timing'',for Zodiac [?].

Having ''probably'' got lost,in attempting to leave Lake Berryessa,by car,it would seem that he had to ask directions at a refreshment point [...the Moscovit Bar [?]..].

Perhaps,Zodiac was waiting on feedback,over a possible new composite picture of him,after his anxious extrication from the beauty spot location [?].

Before,he venture a comment about his exploits,as a ''butcher''.

Richard

2/27/2018 02:45:10 am

Many talk about the lack of correspondence after the Berryessa stabbings. I'm not convinced Rubislaw. The writing on the card door was a form of correspondence only 5 minutes after the attack. The 'Dripping Pen' may have been further reference to this, along with the addition of 'Sept' in the months list. We may disagree on the 340 being solved, but putting yourself in the camp of the 340 being unsolved for a moment-we have a dripping pen (with possibly blood), the month of September and a cipher, and an unsolved cipher that may have widely referred to his September 27th exploits. The contention therefore, that the Zodiac didn't refer to Berryessa may be extremely wide of the mark. In his copious correspondences Zodiac referred to Vallejo several times, but never Benicia. He too, like some law enforcement believed the LHR double murder was a Vallejo crime. However, it was over the jurisdictional line in Benicia.
Some people believe LB to be a hoaxer, but surely 9 months after LHR a hoaxer would have been aware from press coverage that LHR was in Benicia, yet the writer on Bryan's car door again lumped both under Vallejo. Many have suggested that LB was not a Zodiac crime, because the author of the Dripping Pen card wrote August, which wasn't noted on the car door. But the writer on the car door, if he had murdered anyone in August, or was claiming to have murdered someone, may have simply not added it under the heading 'Vallejo' because he knew it wasn't in Vallejo. If he was inferring Snoozy and Furlong in the Dripping Pen card, then he wouldn't refer to it on the car door because they were murdered in San Jose. The writing on the car door only referred to dates Zodiac knew the police would understand. He was effectively confirming it was him.
In terms of knowing the area well, at Berryessa, he certainly knew where Park Headquarters was, relative to the crime scene. In his phone call to Nancy Slover he gave correct directions to BRS, as I argued by adding a pause or comma to the wording. "I wish to report a double murder. If you will go one mile east...... on Columbus Parkway to a public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They have been shot by a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year.... Good-bye." The distance was slightly off, and should have read "I wish to report a double murder. If you will go 2.3 mile east...... on Columbus Parkway to a public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They have been shot by a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year.... Good-bye." Because Columbus Parkway is 2.3 miles east from the cop station. Strange that he is 1.3 miles off, because at Lake Berryessa when he made the phone call, he was exactly 1.3 miles off again. He stated 2 miles north of Park Headquarters, but it was 0.7 miles. His distances were off on both occasions, but his compass directions were spot on. Therefore, this must have been a very clever hoaxer to make distance errors on both occasions and yet again fail to refer to Benicia. In terms of William Grant, I know little, because I don't buy any Zodiac books. The suspect chases I don't buy into, and probably never will. If people believe a particular subject is Zodiac, that is subjective, not objective for the most part. It's like reading what hot meal they prefer, it's down to personal choice. The cornucopia of Zodiac suspects nowadays, means it's probably harder to identify who wasn't Zodiac.

Richard

2/27/2018 03:08:09 am

We know that the phone caller at Napa was the murderer, because when he rang in at 7.40 pm, he delivered an identically structured message akin to the Zodiac BRS phone call. At 7.40 pm the police at Berryessa hadn't discovered the writing on the car door, and certainly hadn't announced it as a Zodiac crime over the airwaves, proving incontrovertibly the caller at Napa was the killer. This doesn't prove he was Zodiac, but as I stated above, he would have to be very darn clever to remotely mimick the handwriting on the fly, again get the distances deliberately wrong, create an almost identically structured message and also lump LHR as a Vallejo crime, just like Zodiac's equal ignorance of Benicia. If the hoaxer is this proficient, then he's likely Zodiac. In my opinion, to argue the opposite is harder to believe than not.

Richard

2/27/2018 03:25:13 am

For the same reasons I have always contended that Donna Lass may be a Zodiac crime- at least the most likely of the peripheral 'murders'.
The author of the card stating 'sought victim 12' marries perfectly with the timeline of Lass in San Francisco and his victim count. Hoaxers are just copycats, leaning heavily on previously confirmed correspondence, using similar phrases, such as the 78 letter. Actually bucking the trend and writing 12 on the Pines card, is either the dumbest hoaxer ever, who despite taking an exorbitant amount of time pasting letters on a card, haplessly and inexplicably got the victim count totally wrong, considering the previous letters and cards had surpassed that total long ago. Therefore, the hoaxer is the most ignorant half-wit in American history, or 'sought' was meant in the past tense. Bearing in mind that Donna moved to South Lake Tahoe on June 6th 1970 when the Zodiac victim count was 10, then 'sought victim 12' is wholly believable, considering Lass worked near the Presidio park and Zodiac frequented San Francisco regularly. This hoaxer therefore, could be argued, knew more about the history of Donna Lass than just a casual hoaxer parroting previous correspondence.

Tahoe27

2/28/2018 11:38:19 am

If the reference to "sought victim 12" was Donna Lass, why then, did Zodiac claim 12 victims on June 30th, 1970. Victim 12 and 13 were accounted for already. Makes no sense.

Also, Zodiac, the actual Zodiac, claimed 13 and went unpublished. Then you have the Crackproof card, again, claiming 13. Zodiac wasn't a guy who would boast about his count remaining the same. The hoaxer, imo, went with the obvious, coming after the published 12 victims.

The Pines card, by saying "sought" gives the hoaxer an easy out. And Donna Lass is a guess.

Richard

2/28/2018 01:22:35 pm

On April 20th 1970 Zodiac was claiming 10 victims. Let us say Zodiac claimed victim 11 on May 4th 1970. Then he would have be searching for victim 12 (sought victim 12) between May 4th 1970 until he eventually claimed the 12th victim in the Button letter on June 26th 1970. Donna Lass was resident in San Francisco between May 4th 1970 and June 6th 1970, when she moved to South Lake Tahoe. If Zodiac had specifically identified her during this period he would have "sought victim 12"- that of Donna Lass. She moved on June 6th 1970 and Zodiac claimed victim 12 on June 26th. Had he murdered Donna Lass, say, May 20th, she would have because victim 12, but she moved- so he murdered somebody else, claiming them as victim 12 instead. Maybe Donna Lass moving delayed the inevitable.

2/28/2018 01:37:40 pm

The Little List letter was mailed July 26th 1970 claiming 13 victims, but as you know it wasn't published in the newspaper until October 12th 1970 in the Chronicle. Therefore on October 5th 1970 his claim of 13 victims hadn't been released to the public.It still stood at 12 in his eye. The Zodiac therefore may have released another claiming 13, because he wasn't aware of what had happened to his last correspondence.He may have thought it lost. A hoaxer isn't required.

Tahoe27

2/28/2018 11:26:17 am

All the guy had to do was pull of a couple of similar letters...when it came to the car door. Most letters don't look like Zodiac's writing to me, but when you see the circle-cross, the mind perceives it differently, imo. Zodiac's writing, along with the circle-cross, was shown in the paper. As was the exact wording of the phone call....which is why I believe the LB caller corrected himself. "NO...a double murder".

Richard

2/28/2018 01:42:15 pm

It certainly is very difficult to ascertain much from handwriting. It's not an exact science. Plus, comparing writing done in the comfort of home to the car door in a squatting position, adrenaline pumping, having stabbed a couple 16 times, is not really a fair comparison.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 03:26:30 am

Some great feedback from you,and thanks.

As you have demonstrated,if we really look at what is on the table,Zodiac has,in fact,''owned up'' to Lake Berryessa.

There is probably a side to most of us,enthusiasts,that are asking ourselves,why Zodiac didn't give us a detailed description of his experience at Lake Berryessa.

It is perhaps strange [?],that Zodiac appeared to be happy to write ''effortlessly'' about what forms of torture that he had planned for his slaves in ''paradice''.....and yet doesn't appear to have felt inclined to give us a detailed account at ''Berryessa''.

Naturally,the former was fiction,inslde his head,but is general compulsion to writing,still seems to not completely answer the question.

As I have referred before,perhaps he was ''shame faced'' about his liberal use of a knife [?].

And even,there were moments when he took stock of himself,and reflected that ,this was not something that his parents would have expected of him.

''No Sir''.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 03:51:59 am

Yes Richard,I certainly clock your comments on Benicia.

I believe it was ''just'' his place of work.

From archive photos,Benicia did then,look largely like ''barren'' ground,for the opportunity of industrial development.

Residential development in Vallejo,appears to have offered ''sedate'' living in a ''proper'' town,with easy access to Mare Island and Benicia....and,with the easy access route ''Benicia Road'' offered to the commuter.

Richard

2/27/2018 03:58:09 am

The crime at Lake Berryessa wasn't unique in this respect.
Nobody at Lake Herman Road could give a detailed account of the crime, because both victims died. Zodiac didn't really give us a detailed account of this crime either- he just listed this to prove he was the killer.
Christmass
1 Brand name of ammo Super X
2 10 shots were fired
3 the boy was on his back with his feet to the car
4 the girl was on her right side feet to the west.
4th July
1 girl was wearing paterned slacks
2 The boy was also shot in the knee.
3 Brand name of ammo was western

The Zodiac didn't give us a detailed account at all. His August 4th Debut letter was only written in response to Vallejo cop Jack E Stiltz, who asked the killer to provide more facts to confirm the letter writer and killer were the same person. His comments ran in the August 2nd and 3rd newspapers. Zodiac responded by detailing his LHR and BRS exploits. If Zodiac hadn't been prompted for more details by Jack Stiltz, I doubt you or I Rubislaw, would have heard any details about his first two crimes-only the list above.
At Presidio Heights, again the victim died. He did write a short letter with the shirt piece- but again this was to confirm he was the killer- he never wrote extensively about the crime. Again, he was prompted to write more by Chief Martin Lee, who challenged Zodiac as a liar, to which Zodiac responded on November 8th and 9th, with the comprehensive Bus Bomb letter. On both occasions Zodiac was prompted into a response by firstly Jack Stiltz, and secondly Chief Martin Lee. Otherwise he may not have written either correspondence. That is why Zodiac wrote "To prove that I am the Zodiac, Ask the Vallejo cop about my electric gun sight which I used to start my collecting of slaves." at the foot of the Bus Bomb letter.
Lake Berryessa was no different, he had little intention of detailing his crime, only claiming it by phone call and car door. Besides, Bryan Hartnell provided all the details for him, in his well documented recollection of events. Zodiac wasn't required anyway.
Had Zodiac not been questioned in the LHR and BRS attacks, the Debut of Zodiac letter wouldn't have existed, as Zodiac inferred "In answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo, I shall be very happy to supply even more material.", which he wouldn't have done if not doubted. The same goes for PH, when Lee prompted Zodiac by calling him a liar, resulting in the extensive Bus Bomb letter. So for me, the absence of any detailed communication at Lake Berryessa isn't actually bucking the trend.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 04:30:30 am

Excellently explained,Richard....and really encapsulates Zodiac's need to be cajoled,provoked and encouraged into explaining himself.

Once Zodiac started to put pen to paper...there was sometimes no stopping him.But,he could also offer ''short thrift''....and this sometimes might be explained by the possibility that he wasn't necessarily always in the ''geographic vicinity'' [?].That,he even might have made,through his work,short trips abroad [?].

The idea that Zodiac ''fed off'' publicised reaction is very persuading,I believe.

And that he came to view Paul Avery as his ''Secret Pal'',because here was someone [Avery],that was prepared to ''trade blows'' with Zodiac....and more to the point,perhaps,show passion to the cause of outing Zodiac.

Someone that actually ''engaged''.

Richard

2/27/2018 05:06:02 am

In his early correspondence Zodiac certainly seemed to be reactionary to what he viewed as doubting him, or insulting him.
On October 18th 1969 Paul Avery ran a piece in the San Francisco Chronicle describing the Zodiac Killer as a 'latent homosexual'. Under the banner Zodiac-Portrait of the Killer he stated "The killer of five who calls himself 'Zodiac' is a clumsy criminal, a liar and possibly a latent homosexual."
.
In much of the newspaper coverage of Zodiac running up to the Stine murder, they implied a sexual angle to his crimes, like his focus seemed to be mainly aimed at the women in his crimes, or the attacks on couples implicitly suggested he was unable to form relationships, or the knife at Berryessa was a form of sexual penetration. He replied swiftly I believe, targeting a lone male in the heart of San Francisco. This sort of psychoanalysis may very well have again prompted Zodiac into a response, and unfortunately for Paul Stine was the recipient. This type of newspaper garbage, being used to rile up an already dangerous killer was misguided and ill thought out. An encouragement by the newspapers for the Zodiac to slip up somewhere by providing more details, should have been the approach, rather than goading or questioning his sexuality. After the Stine murder they still continued, calling him a latent homosexual. This may inadvertently have pushed him into killing a gay person to prove he wasn't. The obvious disdain of the Chronicle newspaper and others, because of the time, in their routine homophobic rhetoric may have cost another innocent life. Whether it did or not, is open to question, as we cannot be certain of all his crimes.

Tahoe27

2/28/2018 12:01:29 pm

Paul Avery reported what LE said in press meeting by Captain Lee. It was also Lee's reference to the Presidio search that appeared to have pissed off Zodiac.

Richard

2/27/2018 04:38:34 am

He may very well have travelled that route along Lake Herman Road many times, if he lived in Vallejo. I used to consider Benicia as his likely residence based upon the 6 minute window. If the timeline of the police was correct and Stella Medeiros never passed any vehicles on her way to Benicia, then Zodiac couldn't have travelled directly home to Vallejo after the murders. But because this timeline can be questioned and opened up to a 11-12 minute window, then Zodiac could easily have passed her ranch before she left that night, opening up the possibility he headed directly home to Vallejo. Zodiac may have worked there at some point, not only necessitating his use of the Lake Herman Road, but equally suggesting he may have lived on the northern side of Vallejo, as opposed to the southern side, or central Vallejo, as he would have travelled to Benicia via a different route.

Richard

2/27/2018 05:21:40 am

October 2nd 1969 San Francisco Chronicle: "He can't be anyone but a mentally ill person" said Captain Townsend. "He must get his sex gratification from the act of killing." Nine days later Paul Stine is dead.
Was this a Zodiac response- switching tack and targeting a man in a cab. I wouldn't bet against it.

Richard

2/27/2018 05:23:48 am

November 9th 1969 Bus Bomb letter:
"This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people. I have grown rather angry with the police for their telling lies about me. So I shall change the way the collecting of slaves. I shall no longer announce to anyone. When I committ my murders, they shall look like routine robberies, killings of anger, + a few fake accidents, etc.

Shelli

3/5/2018 06:10:21 pm

Richard,
Have you ever seen anywhere any school programs or notice of in any place for the Hogan and Benicia for Dec 29, 68? Thanks.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 06:09:25 am

I expect you to get a number of responses from your last two comments,Richard.

''Sexual gratification'' [?].And,was it a genuine accusation,or to provoke a response from Zodiac.....which they received....but sadly,with Zodiac's inclination to go and murder a solitary taxi driver,with clearly,no sexual motive.

Well,on the face of it,having attacked three couples in a row,it would seem that there might be,at least,an element of sexual envy [?].

But,and with a ''retrospective'' eye,we might come to the conclusion that Zodiac's serious crimes,were a ''vehicle'' for a form of ''power game'',with the authorities.

Even if we accepted this premise,we are probably not really accounting for the ''human'' factor [?].

That,specifically,Zodiac possibly didn't realise that he was beginning to actually enjoy the ''killing'',of itself [?].

And,that actually,there are signs that the Lake Berryessa attack,might have given him a ''sexual thrill''.

Judith N Chapman

2/27/2018 01:21:12 pm

So that is a bit confusing. Did Zodiac ever specifically claim a victim that we can prove was not his?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 01:54:14 pm

Richard had mentioned Sgt.Richard Radetich,Judith.

Radetich was shot with a .38,at close to point blank range,while he sat in his police car,preparing a parking ticket.

This,on June 19th 1970,San Francisco.

Zodiac mailed a letter,to the S.F.Chronicle,on June 26th 1970.Now known as the Button Letter,Zodiac claimed :

''I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38''

Zodiac has never been ''wanted'' in connection with this murder.

John

2/28/2018 01:06:49 pm

Rubislaw,

Regarding Radetich's murder: They had a suspect in that murder, an ex-convict who was extradited from Ohio to face the charges. The case against the suspect was dropped in 1971 due to lack of evidence. Is it possible that the Zodiac took credit for the murder just to tease the SFPD?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/28/2018 01:55:59 pm

Indeed John.

That is precisely what Zodiac did....attempt to take ''credit'' for the murder of Radetich.

It looks very persuasively,that in the year 1970,Zodiac attempted to take credit for Johns,Radetich and Bates.

Cheri Jo Bates is an entirely different ball game,for Zodiac,however.

Paul Stine had,most probably,been Zodiac's last actual kill....and a year on,Zodiac was looking to give the authorities more actual evidence of his [Zodiac's] atrocious behaviour.

Zodiac succeeded,in using Sgt Lynch,Paul Avery and the Riverside Police to lead the authorities to a crime in his past.

That being,the extortion of The Enterprise newspaper,The Riverside Police,and the father of Ms.Bates,Joseph.

I believe that history will bear out that Zodiac,did not murder Ms.Bates....but his peripheral involvement,was nevertheless reprehensible.

And,Zodiac got to give Paul Avery,the ''runaround''....another ''point scoring'' victory,over his ''Secret Pal'' [!].

Judith N Chapman

2/27/2018 02:30:44 pm

He didn't say I shot a cop though. You would think he would brag about it. Could have been any man.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 03:31:23 pm

I think we could be close to ''splitting hairs'' on that one,Judith [?].

Just to look at the respective dates,alone....June 19th and June 26th.

Zodiac appears to have,on occasion,become restless,in the year 1970.

The terror campaign was actually working out O.K. for him...just with the pen.

Perhaps he felt the need to ''flex his muscles'',unnecessarily,with the perceived Radetich ''boast'' [?].

It was following the Halloween Card,into November of that year,that Avery received the ''slow boat to China'' letter,which resulted in another ''telegraphed'' boast....that of Cheri Jo Bates,from four years previously.And,it doesn't look like Zodiac murdered Ms.Bates,either.

So,there were just times,perhaps,when Zodiac lost his discipline [?]

And gave away his weaknesses,by ''telling porky pies''.

Judith N Chapman

2/27/2018 04:55:03 pm

In some folks minds. We don't know for sure if he didn't kill Cheri Jo. We don't know that he didn't abduct Kathleen. We do know he seems to take credit for these crimes. Personally my suspect had a strict code of honor, and would not take credit for something he didn't do.

Augustus

4/2/2018 06:21:28 pm

Media acused Z of several crimes. For Z would be very easy claim credit for crimes he didn't commit. However Z only claimed credit of 6 crimes (including Johns's abduction) Why?. Z was very egocentric and attention seeker, if Z claimed credit for a crime he didn´t comitt and subsequently pólice finally find the perpetrator it would discredit Z and he wouldn't like deal with it. All 6 crimes remain unsolved. Was he very lucky choosing crimes that remain unsolved? I think is more simple, Z was the perpetrator

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 05:27:04 pm

That's of genuine interest,regarding your suspect,Judith.

In studying Zodiac,I have tried hard,as a layman on psychology,to understand what one is.....and believe Zodiac to be ''of the mould''.

Are you of the same opinion,regarding your suspect ?

Their codes of honor are really on the surface.

Don't you think that he fooled you,for you to feel that he may have been Zodiac ?

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 05:41:54 pm

......naturally,''Psychopath'' is the word,I mean to refer to...

Judith N Chapman

2/27/2018 06:13:46 pm

Fooled me how? He was pretty scary from the get-go when I was the teenage girl that married him. He never hid it
I spent the last three days of a 20-year marriage with loaded guns held to my head in front of our two younger children. He claimed he was the Zodiac Killer on several occasions. Said he used to be a Hitman for the Hell's Angels. Used to say that Charlie Manson was a pimple on his ass. I was only fooling myself. Demonstrated how to hide one's fingerprints with the model airplane glue he was using to make his models. In fact on those last days he had me go out into the dark in the woods and demonstrated with his rifle which had a penlight tape to the end of it how to point that circle of light and then just spray.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 06:25:04 pm

Sounds terrible for you,Judith.

I must re-read your's and other Zodiac books,in my collection.

So,he did have a ''thing'' about Zodiac,anyway [?].It wasn't just something that you suspected.

It does seem,as you describe,that he was a schizophrenic [?].

Tahoe27

2/28/2018 03:20:16 pm

Think about this though...Zodiac never claimed them. Even Cheri. He just wrote "activity" which could have meant just the writing. He never so much has hinted at Lass--a nurse, a woman...nothing. Kind of convenient. Even with Johns, months went by. Probably fairly sure the guy who took her for her ride wasn't going to be caught...and if he was, eh. Wasn't him...wouldn't matter.

Richard

2/28/2018 03:34:42 pm

Very true Tahoe. Radetich wasn't claimed as a victim, only "a man in a parked car". If the Radetich murder had been solved, Zodiac had a get out, as he only stated "man. The Pines card was only by insinuation, the Riverside murder as you alluded only "activity", as was "Aug", implying possibly the murders of Snoozy and Furlong. In every instance he was always less than specific, probably just in case the crime was solved and attributed to another person. Zodiac always had a get out clause, so the contention he always claimed crimes that were never solved, as evidence he may be the killer, is actually a misnomer.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/28/2018 05:25:56 pm

Yes Tahoe 27.....Donna Lass [.....rest her soul...] is just a murder.promoted out of the Zodiac sites,and born out of a desire,by those that believe that Larry Kane was Zodiac.

As suspected,the Pines card was originally interpreted as an inference that WJGrant was Zodiac [The Sierra Club]....with a further inference that whoever created the card,wanted to incriminate Mr.Grant,as Zodiac.

Perhaps ''the real'' Zodiac,for instance [?].

Drew

2/27/2018 06:46:08 pm

Zodiac never claimed to have killed someone that did not remain a cold case. The list includes Bates, Radetich, Salem, Lass, Johns. Of course we can't account for the number counts he put in his letters but we have no proof that did not kill those he claimed or proof that he did.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/27/2018 07:10:11 pm

Yes,Drew....I have never held much importance with the ''numerical kills'' count.

If one really tried to follow ''Zodiac'' by numbers,one would become even more confused,than ever.

I always believe,as a prominent example,that Zodiac used the number ''14'' in the Halloween card to Avery.....merely because it suited an ''expansive'' choice on riddles and puzzles,that he offered up,in that card.

''37'' was his last claim,in correspondences that have been deemed wholly authentic.

But Zodiac could have picked virtually any number.

I believe that he had a ''vague'' eye on the count,just to illustrate that the ''kill count'' was steadily rising.

But really,apart from certain numbers suiting his needs,for certain correspondences,they amount to ''very little'' in true representation.

Drew

2/27/2018 09:15:03 pm

Little known fact, Zodiac actually did his kill count to torture me specifically. That is the only thing I am sure of in this case. I still can't decide the first thing about who Zodiac really was, what he did, or why he did it. How long did he do it? I have no idea. Did he have a partner or some nefarious benefactor? Could be!

Rodelli was told by law enforcement sources that one of the 4 1974 letters had matching DNA to the 1978 letter. Mike suspects Exorcist but the source claims that he can't recall which one it was. One might infer that both were from Zodiac. Indeed they used a palm print from Exorcist to test Allen. I believe they used the 1978 for the over the stamp DNA test in the 1990s. One could also infer that because there was no DNA on any of the other letters and no fingerprint matches that both the Exorcist and the 78 were both from the same hoaxer. If so, the hoaxer who claimed 37 and threatened to do something nasty may have also penned the unpublished Fairfield letter that promised to kill 38. Am I incorrect about some of these details? That is also a strong possibility!

Rubislaw 32 link

2/28/2018 03:35:34 am

Excellent points and inferences,Drew.

If I try to put across anything,to Zodiac enthusiasts,it is two main pieces of advice.

Firstly,the most important,and valuable aspect to researching the case,is.....''Historical Context''.

Learn all you can about the time period,and particularly related to Zodiac's probable geographic proximity.Try to understand Zodiac,from the perspective of his life,in relation to everyone else's around him.

Secondly,Drew...and as you have just touched on.....

Approach the ''unconfirmed'' correspondences,just as you would the ''confirmed'' correspondences.

Accept them,firstly as if they were ''confirmed''....work on them similarly,and try to understand them,as best a you can.

AND THEN.....you are in a position to be your OWN arbiter,on whether the unconfirmed correspondences are authentic,or not,and whether they tend to ''fit in'' with the ones already authenticated,officially.

Lyndon Lafferty,was ever so pleased with himself,when he walked out of Vallejo Police Station,with a copy of an unconfirmed,called the 1990 Celebrity Cipher.

He was equally pleased with himself,when he walked out of Benicia Police Station,with a copy of an unconfirmed,called the Benicia High School Note.

Like the cat that got the cream......however,what Mr.Lafferty failed to realise was that the CA DOJ had asked the Vallejo and Benicia police,to ''surreptitiously'' feed these ''unconfirmed's'' to Lyndon,so that he might,through his book,or otherwise,put knowledge of them,into the public domain.

Why did they do this ?

I would venture that L.E. did this because,although they were struggling to understand both the 1990 Celebrity Cipher and Benicia High School Note.....they have a ''very persuasive'' and forensic link between them.

I can't be certain of the above...but I am very confident.

So,Drew,as you have touched on,in your comment,we can never be sure which correspondences are forensically linked.

And,perhaps of more importance to us,amateurs,is ....which correspondences are actually ''Zodiac authentic''.

Therefore,work on all of them,with equal importance....then be in a stronger position to decide which are which.

Drew

2/28/2018 10:19:56 am

I try to maintain a similar open-minded attitude about studying the case. At first I just wanted to know only what was in the reports and what Law Enforcement thought decades later. I was deathly afraid to read Yellowbook because I knew enough to know it could lead me astray. I soon learned that without the interpretations of online experts like Richard, Tahoe, Tom, Butterfield, etcetera that I would quickly get lost. All of the redactions in the reports and poor visible quality made it very tough. The historical context as you say is also something you need to leave your backyard for and clearly a vital component.

Books and TV documentaries on the subject which seek to push an agenda require a more skeptical approach to determine the value of their information, but I get ideas from all over the place. Ray Grant has a perspective on the case that has a lot of value for me even though I don't agree with his particular team theory. Gian Quasar is a very thorough and hands-on researcher with tons of great ideas. Howard Davis has also done a lot of work and has come to a conclusion I cannot really accept (because I think he was given false information), but his efforts and observations on the case have benefited everyone. Lately Jelberg and AK Wilks on Morf's board have presented a lot of fascinating circumstantial stuff on Ted Kaz that have really opened my mind.

Of course I still feel clueless but I have learned to check footnotes and note when there are no footnotes provided. The struggle is what to do with info from guys like Robert Tarbox. Just because a source is unreliable or may have an ulterior motive doesn't mean they are lying or wrong. Maybe Deborah Perez was both Zodiac and JFK's daughter.

I have never seen the Benicia High School note. If you care to share or pontificate I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Rubislaw 32 link

2/28/2018 02:59:37 pm

Thanks for your feedback,Drew,which is appreciated.

It does seem to me,that you are in this for the ''long haul'' [?].Good for you....it can be unforgiving,at times....but genuine passion for the case,is a rare commodity,to be found.

Richard and Tahoe 27 really do put in the ''donkey work'',to keep the information ''fresh'' and available.

I have great admiration for AK Wilks,since,like me,he understands the potential importance of the ''unconfirmed's''.That he believes in ''Ted'',is his affair.

However I refer to Lyndon Lafferty,let everyone be aware....here is a ''true legend'' in the history of the case.And no one....bar none....devoted more of themselves,in an effort to find a solution.

Everyday I remember him,and find that my investigations are really a case of standing on his shoulders,to get a better view of the ''landscape''.

I refer to the Benicia High School note at zodiackillermystery.freeforums.net

In addition,it can be view in Lafferty's book.

It is yet another example of Zodiac attempting to incriminate William Grant.This time,the inference being that Zodiac and Grant were in it,together.

Its time source is believed to be circa Autumn 1972.

So,with a ''more than probable'' forensic link to the Celebrity Cipher,this ''bridges'' a time gap of some 18 years.More to the point,that Zodiac was still ''putting in an appearance'',as late as 1990.

Like many,I believe that I know who Zodiac is.What perhaps,is slightly different,in my case....and that the authorities are aware...is...that I have offered core ''Prime Motive'' of Zodiac....that can actually be proved,in an irrefutable manner....and presented as acceptable evidence,in a court of law.

But,the ''real nightmare'' that perhaps,confronts many enthusiasts is,whether the case,from a legal perspective...is actually irretrievable [?].

Are the ''Authorities'' just counting out time....or,are they getting on with it with a big plan ahead.

Even,President Trump ''should'' know the answer to this dilemma.

Judith N Chapman

2/28/2018 07:24:34 pm

So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater weight should be given to Kathleen John account as I said before her physical description of her abductor aligns with the eyewitness accounts of the killer himself now can we create a physical profile that matches just those eyewitnesses to crimes being committed only? What do we have? Age? Height? Body type? Hair color? What do we have people? Just the eyewitness accounts of someone committing a crime please.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/1/2018 04:38:32 am

Fair comments,Judith.

With respect to the late Ms.Johns,her abduction isn't a hugely important piece of the Zodiac jigsaw puzzle.

And,probably one that L.E. will shy away from,if they get anywhere near to an arrest and conviction.

Just too many doubts,all round [?].

As for the case,as a whole,it will largely come down to what the CA DOJ have amassed,in forensics....and if they are able to present it in an understandable,meaningful,and compelling way.

If they can do this,then there should be no need for a trial,anyway,since Zodiac's defence,would throw in the towel,and persuade Zodiac to cop a plea deal.

Judith N Chapman

3/1/2018 06:46:21 am

Come on now. You know what you'll get is a man that is much younger much shorter and much thinner, than the suspect you visualize. And yes only DNA will satisfactorily solve this case. Didn't the History Channel Show dangle the possibility of a facial Recreation based on DNA? Meanwhile time is wasted on people like Arthur Leigh Allen and Ross Sullivan. They simply don't fit the physical description of the killer based on the eyewitness accounts. Seriously.

Richard

3/1/2018 02:19:09 pm

Facial construction through DNA typing is not a realistic science at this juncture. DNA is not the only thing that will solve this case, and yes time is wasted on Arthur Leigh Allen and Ross Sullivan, but time is wasted on every suspect ever mentioned.The answer isn't to keep adding to the suspect list year on year with endless and pointless innuendo, it is to use science and statistics to weed out the killer. These endless claims of "I know who the Zodiac Killer is because" are a waste of everybody's time. These suspects are ten a penny, and will not unearth the Zodiac Killer.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/1/2018 07:52:45 am

Yes,well I try to keep an open mind,in terms of investigation....since it tends to be more productive,for finding out new aspects to Zodiac.

If one has a particular suspect in mind,it should be more a case of ''Whatever will be,will be'' [?].Only official L.E. can enact an arrest,and ensure the process of justice.

Interesting that you mention a recreation,based on DNA.

I wonder how far,science has advanced this possibility...or,to what extent of accuracy,anticipated [?].

In theory,the Department of Justice should hold all rights to any forensics,regarding the Zodiac case.

So,one presumes that it would be up to them,to allow such a thing to take place....and whether it is in the public's interest to view this recreation [?].

It might be seen to legally prejudice the Zodiac case.

With regard to the ''Usual Suspects'',any that already have acquired a criminal record,should be dismissed anyway....since it appears all too apparent that part of the reason that Zodiac has escaped justice,is that he offered nothing on official records,with which to favourably compare forensics.

3/1/2018 03:22:08 pm

Richard - Have L.E. ever looked at the casing firing pin strikes on the 22 caliber shells from all the crime scenes for comparison to see if they did come from the same weapon?

Richard

3/1/2018 08:38:27 pm

"Examinations have been conducted of all bullets and cartridge cases present in items 1 thru 8. Various markings on those exhibits were extensively examined, evaluated and checked against records maintained by this laboratory and our rather large test bullet and cartridge file. As a result of these studies, we find that the exhibits correspond only with tests fired in J.C. Higgins Model 80 .22 automatic pistol. It should not be assumed the exhibits must have been fired in such a weapon, but this is the only type presently in our files that corresponds, therefore, it appears somewhat probable the weapon was of this type.
In addition to subjecting to further tests any J.C. Higgins Model 80 automatic pistol recovered, further tests should be made on any weapon having the following characteristics;
(A) Cartridge cases: Semi-circular firing pin impression at 12 o' clock position, small extractor markings at 3 o'clock position. Very faint ejector marking at 8 o' clock position (latter may not always be detectable).
(B) Weapon barrel or test bullets: Six right hand grooves, land and groove ratio 1:1+. Bullet groove width approximately 0.056 inch. Bullet land width approximately 0.060 inch."

"All bullets submitted were Western copper coated .22 long rifle bullets, although some were damaged, it was possible to determine ALL but Item [1] had 6 right hand groove class characteristics", to
"All bullets submitted were Western copper coated .22 long rifle bullets, although some were damaged, it was possible to determine Item [1] didn't have 6 right hand groove class characteristics,"
DOJ REPORT

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-second-weapon-at-lake-herman-road

Kelly wayne gabel

9/16/2019 04:58:28 pm

What color was the veicle that the man was driving the car she and her baby got into.

Richard

9/17/2019 12:16:43 am

Light tan colour.

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KATHLEEN JOHNS- ABDUCTION OR NOT

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