ZODIAC CIPHERS
Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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JOE STINE- A CHALLENGE TO ZODIAC

3/5/2018

 
The Zodiac Killer appeared to have targeted specific areas in his search for victims, such as the secluded areas of Lake Herman Road, the Blue Rock Springs parking lot and Lake Berryessa, as well as his venture into the theater district of Union Square to deliberately target a San Francisco taxicab driver. But if the Modesto abduction of Kathleen Johns was a Zodiac crime, and he lived in the Bay Area, or more specifically Vallejo, then he went to extraordinary lengths to perpetrate his fifth recorded attack. Modesto is 86 miles from the site of his first attack at Lake Herman Road. That is a 172 mile round trip from Benicia.

If the abduction was the only purpose of his visit, we would have to believe he left his residence at sometime around 9:30 pm on Sunday night at the latest, to travel for 1.5 to 2 hours to a random stretch of highway in Modesto, for the sole purpose of flagging down a passing motorist, when this same technique could have been applied anywhere from Martinez, Concord or Walnut Creek - or an area he was possibly more familiar with. Three to four hours of driving to and from the destination, plus a 2 hour abduction, would mean anywhere up to 6 hours driving, for what turned out to be nothing more than a 'joyride'. Unless of course, there was a purpose behind his visit to Modesto, and the Kathleen Johns abduction was a mere afterthought and spur of the moment decision on his way home.       
PictureClick to enter Google maps
On October 11th 1969, taxicab driver Paul Stine was murdered in Presidio Heights. On October 22nd 1969, the same day as the supposed Oakland PD phone call by Zodiac, requesting that either Melvin Belli or Francis Lee Bailey, high profile lawyers at the time, appear on a chat show hosted by Jim Dunbar, Joe Stine, brother of the victim, issued a challenge to Zodiac on a KPIX news report. It was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle the following day. Joe Stine stated "Zodiac has to be sick, a maniac. I hope that by offering myself as a target I can flush him out. I work at the Richfield Service Station at 706 Sutter Street in Modesto, near Rouse Street. I start at 7 am. I go to lunch at the Walk-In Chicken in a shopping center two blocks away, riding a bicycle along Sutter Street and leaving the station at noon each day. I go back to the service station and work until 5".
Joe Stine lived with his mother in Modesto. 

During the interview on the KPIX news report, Joe Stine was asked: "What is your feeling among them or people in the city that you may be drawing the Zodiac here unnecessarily". Joe Stine stated that it was 99% likely the Zodiac wouldn't take up his challenge. It seemed unlikely, but exactly 5 months later the Zodiac appeared on Highway 132, west of Modesto. If this was Zodiac - was it a coincidence? Did the Zodiac make the journey to Modesto over the weekend of March 20th to the early hours of March 23rd (possibly even stopping over) with the express intention of taking up Joe Stine on his challenge and proving this 99% assertion incorrect?

Joe Stine rode a bicycle to work, that may have indicated his mother's residence was relatively close to the Richfield Service Station at Sutter Street. Had the Zodiac Killer traveled to Modesto and followed Joe Stine at any point over the weekend, thereby locating the residence of his mother - p
resumably Joe Stine would not have been working on a Sunday. Whatever the case, the attack never materialized. Then Kathleen Johns was abducted just shy of Bird Road on Highway 132, en route to Petaluma, and ironically, according to the police report, the suspect drove "west on Highway 132 and pulled into a Richfield service station that was closed". He surely must have been aware it was closed?        

PictureSan Francisco Chronicle October 23rd 1969. Is Joe Stine working on the wheel of a vehicle?
Kathleen Johns traveled from San Bernardino, California to Highway 132, via Highway 99, turning west just by downtown Modesto. She would have traveled on Highway 99, just 4,840 feet, or 1.48 km east of the Richfield Service Station where Joe Stine worked - and likely close to where he resided with his mother. ​Is this where Zodiac picked up her trail, somewhere along Highway 132, en route to his weekend residence, or on his way home to the Bay Area? This may be an unlikely scenario of events, but if the Modesto abduction of Kathleen Johns was unrelated to Joe Stine, why did the Zodiac Killer make a daunting 6 hour trek all over California just to flag down and give a ride to a random motorist, that he could have done anywhere? Additionally, do we put the abduction in Modesto as a coincidence, bearing in mind Joe Stine's connection to Modesto, and the previous attack was on his brother in San Francisco. Was it just a case of happenstance?

On Zodiac Killer Site forum there is an interesting letter highlighted- sent to the editor of the Modesto Bee newspaper. AK Wilks stated "Someone reacted to Joe Stine very strongly. Doug Oswell and I, and some others, wonder if this letter from AROUSED is actually the Zodiac"  Joe Stine worked near ROUSE Street. Bearing in mind how Zodiac signed off some of his letters, it's worthy of consideration.​ The Modesto Bee communication can be viewed on the forum, or directly here.

Drew
3/5/2018 08:23:11 am

This "aroused" letter reminds me of the Patricia Hautz letter. Even after Mike Butterfield tracked her down and interviewed her it's still hard to let go of. While I suppose we have to doubt the Richfield Station connection I have always thought this guy was awesome.

Just to throw something somewhat related into the discussion, I have been getting bits of information from Tom Voigt about 3 "confirmed" letters from Zodiac and 2 "confirmed" victims that have never been made public. Tom says he has been informed of more details than he can provide us right now, but has revealed that one of the letters is about a victim (obviously a first for Zodiac) and another letter that was sent to the Chairman of the DMV. Someone on one of the forums wrote that Paul Stine's wife worked at the DMV on Fell Street which is near the Stine residence. I don't believe anyone has any further info on that or has even identified who the Chairman of the DMV was at that time. It of course would change a lot of ideas about Zodiac if this became officially confirmed.

Richard
3/5/2018 09:12:22 am

I suppose the only way to fully confirm a letter is from Zodiac, is if he provides details unreleased by police or a piece of shirt, Stine's driver license etc falls from the envelope. I find it difficult to believe there are two more confirmed victims, but if the Zodiac was telling the truth up to November 9th, there are certainly 2 victims unaccounted for on the Dripping Pen card.
Here's a teaser for you Drew- deciphering the last 29 characters on the 340 cipher using nothing more than the 408 cipher deciphered text, and assuming that the 6 characters of the 'near Zodiac' on the last line is actually Zodiac. In other words if the 333rd to 338th character were ZODIAC, then predict the final word, then give me the preceding 7 words from character 312 onwards.
This is a phrase one would expect Zodiac to sign the 340 off with.

John
3/6/2018 07:41:47 am

Hello Richard,

I've always believed that the 340 cipher needs to be rearranged in order to decipher it. What if the last line is actually the first line of the cipher? "This is the Zodiac SP" actually fits nicely in that last line. Now the problem is where to you go from there if he started the cipher off this way? Just throwing that idea out there. Maybe someone who has more knowledge of ciphers can give us his opinion.

John
3/6/2018 08:19:09 am

Just wanted to add the the word "Zodiac" could have been misspelled intentionally. Could have been written as "Zodeeak" or "Zodiak"etc...

Richard
3/6/2018 08:21:12 am

Hi John, I tried "This is the Zodiac Speaking" on the first line rather than the last, using a pigpen cipher here
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/340-cipher-up-shit-creek-without-a-paddle

But if you look at the 18th line of the 408, it may give an idea on how the 340 ends, assuming the last two words are "Zodiac is". It's total guesswork and may be wide of the mark, but not being a cipher expert, and having my doubts that this 340 holds any message at all, I personally believe the 340 has a mathematical solution-nothing more. Having not been solved for 49 years with the most powerful computers on earth, if it has a 'word solution', then the decryption key used by Zodiac to unravel it. is so personal to him, only he would be able to solve it. For me anyway, the 6 characters on the 20th line that looks like Zodiac didn't fall unintentionally out by accident, they were designed with purpose. If any credited solve is ever going to be solved I believe it must begin here. I think that Zodiac represents 888 or Jesus and ties to the 13 symbol cipher. But I certainly don't profess this as a certainty or a solve. Here are my efforts:

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-bible-code-of-a-killer

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-mathematics-of-the-13-symbol-cipher

Many will probably dismiss or ridicule these attempts, but they aren't claimed as solutions-just attempts at finding a mathematical correlation.

John
3/6/2018 08:32:08 am

Good points, Richard. I just threw that out there. As you wrote, it's an attempt, nothing more. As the old saying goes: back to the drawing board.

Drew
3/6/2018 09:57:47 am

<ARLYUNLUHVC
>HNTEEIADENAWTSOE

Can you give me a hint who Zodaik is

Drew
3/6/2018 10:15:16 am

I have no clue Richard! What on earth have you found?

Richard
3/6/2018 10:25:38 am

It's nothing important Drew, I just worked backwards assuming initially that 6 character segment was Zodiac. So like you I surmised it must be "Zodiac is". The 408 said "I will not give you my name." therefore based upon on the 408 "I will not tell you who the Zodiac is". Not likely correct, or the most scientific way of doing it Drew, but it was worth a punt.

Drew
3/6/2018 10:39:19 am

"I will not tell you who the Zodiac is" is as good as I've heard Richard. I definitely would expect this kind of message to emerge if A) it is a cipher with a coherent solution and B) he did not use filler to complete the squared off shape of the whole as he did in the 408. This was fun! I haven't played the Harden game with the 340 in ages!

Ray Jenkins
3/7/2018 03:50:55 pm

There are all sorts of interesting bits and pieces to be fund in the 340. It is almost like a jumbled collection of different ciphers. Maybe the Zodiac did just that. Harden solved the first one all too quickly. Frustrated and feeling the pangs of agony insulting his ego, the Zodiac decided to throw together a miscellany of other finished and half-finished ciphers he had been tinkering with. "Solve that ya bastards!" may have been the exact words that spewed from his lips like venom as he scornfully threw the letter into the mail box. :)

Don
4/27/2018 01:52:45 am

I really feel now that they have the GSK in custody need to take a look at the Zodiac with fresh eyes and compare the cases. They very well maybe related. The composites of both subjects were close to each other and the Zodiac wore a standard Military\Law Enforcement hair cut. To list the similarities, well I would be here all night.

I really believe that they have found something big here. Even if he isn't the Zodiac I bet he will end up when the investigation is fully done being the most Prolific Serial Killer we have ever seen.

Another note. During same timespans for the most part you had three different serial killers working in the same geographical location. That is BEYOND rare. It's practically unheard of (doesn't mean its not possible) but I think were going to have some big surprises come out. I haven't seen them keep a case so close and quiet for a long time. Hell, the press didn't even know what was going on until hours after the house got hit, they wouldn't even say it was related to the GSK case. They are keeping this close to the vest and as a trained investigator myself that means they have many more rounds to go with this guy.

Karen C
4/27/2018 04:16:09 pm

Don, never a truer word has been spoken. Not only was this GSK guy prolific, he was a real life chameleon. He was intelligent enough to change his entire MO and persona as he moved about, and as his lust for killing progressed so too did his methods. What we find with the Zodiac is he was rather scattered when in came to his MO. One would expect a single serial killer to be much more focused, but the Zodiac was kind of "all over the place". It was as if he used his correspondence as a way to give some uniformity of purpose and meaning to his criminal persona at that time and, as such, it is possible that what he wrote was largely staged, i.e. tailored to suit the circumstances of that particular period of his criminal activities. GSK has blown all of the former "rules" pertaining to serial killers clear out of the water. And yes indeed, anyone who is not seriously re-thinking the Zodiac case in light of this must be in denial.

Karen C
4/27/2018 04:18:17 pm

edit: "rather scattered when it came to his MO"

Rubislaw 32 link
3/5/2018 10:17:28 am

Yes Drew...that's Mr.Voigt and a sleazy British tabloid,saying the same thing together.

And there was I,doubting the claims of Judith and KayElleSF,that claims were becoming too speculative.

Unfortunately,there is becoming an element of truth to what they are saying.

Fake news is becoming contagious,and being used to falsely higher individual's and Zodiac site's profiles.

Repent !

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 01:30:47 pm

The Zodiac never went after Joe Stine for calling him a sick maniac. He never went after anyone, but I think he took out his revenge in other ways and on other people, perhaps subconsciously, the next time he killed. This is why I think all those stories about people being stalked by the Zodiac for decades are complete bollocks! The Zodiac did not seem to stalk people, but he did give Paul Avery a fright, and that seemed more as a point of bad taste humor and a desire to taunt, rather than a reflection of any real intent to harm him. I very much doubt that the Zodiac would have followed people like Avery and Graysmith around for days as a stalker. He had his sights set elsewhere.

Richard
3/5/2018 01:59:42 pm

Probably not Ray. I don't believe Zodiac stalked anyone, or that the Halloween card was a threat to Avery. Understandably he may have been concerned, taking precautions, but I don't think that was the intention of the card. Taking out your vehicle to publicity is not the most sensible option on the table. As usual the Zodiac was claiming 14 victims, not threatening a 14th victim. Peek-a-boo you are doomed just more childish parlour games by Zodiac I suspect.
But I don't buy the argument there was no secondary reason for Zodiac to be in Modesto. He was there for a purpose- work, recreation, family- to name but three. But to travel that distance for the sole purpose of such a crime, when you could achieve exactly the same 10 miles from home, could be argued as unrealistic. But I may be wrong- I'm not a serial killer. Psychoanalysis of these people off the back of his 4 crimes and a jumble of correspondence realistically cannot be done. People who work in this profession are often duped by these people, but even they have to sit with these people to make an assessment of them. Not just read a few letters and look at the murders. I doubt anybody guessed Dennis Rader and Gary Ridgeway from their crimes, or letters in the case of BTK.
The best you can say of Zodiac, is that he was murderer without conscience, who deserved to rot in jail, but never did, or never will.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/5/2018 02:29:45 pm

I do disagree on the ''Zodiac didn't stalk anyone'' part,Richard....but,newspaper people were strictly ''off limits'' for Zodiac.

There is evidence that Zodiac stalked Belli,if only for some information about him.

And of course,there is ''zillions'' of examples of compelling ''evidence'' that Zodiac stalked a certain Mr.Grant.How on earth does anyone imagine that an upshot was a harassment case successfully fought against all of Law Enforcement,if some ''tricky'' behaviour,beyond L.E. behaviour,alone,would not have come to pass,if this had not been the case [?].

But indeed....when it came to the press...they were the main facilitators for the perpetuation of Zodiac's mythical side.

Yes,Avery really was Zodiac's ''Secret Pal'' for playfully engaging with....and Marc Spinelli only got it in the neck from Zodiac,for not playing along,in his persona as Count Marco.Caen was plain and simply ''God'' to Zodiac....and when the Chronicle refused to accede to button requests,there was really nothing that Zodiac could do about it.

But,yes it does seem to be the case that Zodiac did not use stalking,in itself,as tool of terror.It was only employed as a means to a more meaningful end.

So,those few individuals that claim to have been stalked by Zodiac,are,in the main,consumed by ''victimhood'' of the Zodiac variety.

More usually referred,in the Zodiac community,as ''Crackpots'' [?].

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 02:30:29 pm

Yes I agree Richard. Serial killers often packed their killing in their picnic baskets, so to speak. In other words they took their killing with them, and they probably had alibis in mind just in case they ever came under suspicion, as a part of their ruse. Go to a wedding, then take a detour and kill someone on the way to the reception. Take their wife to her church fellowship meeting, or take the kids to sport, drive a few miles away and kill someone, then back in time to pick up the wife and kids and take them out for ice cream.

A recent notorious serial killer in Australia, Ivan Milat, would pick up hitch-hikers, selecting only the "foreign" ones to kill. He killed on his days off, combining killing with other recreation like hunting in the bush, which at least made him easier to find. When police cross checked his work time sheets with the dates of abductions and killings, they found a consistent match. Milat has been implicated in at least one much earlier killing - the execution-style shooting of a taxi driver - but proof after so many years is lacking. There is little doubt that he may have been responsible for the abduction and possible murder of other missing people.

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 02:32:05 pm

Zillions of evidence that he stalked Grant? Why am I not seeing it one of the zillion pieces of evidence? I doubt if Zodiac even knew who Grant was.

Richard
3/5/2018 03:05:08 pm

Yes, I remember to the police simply buried the British guys call, saying he escaped from Milat, until they dusted off the cobwebs on the tip. I see so many documentaries where police disregard or fail to follow up on even credible tips, that more innocents die. It's infuriating.
One thing that makes me laugh Ray, is the opening lines of many American crime or murder documentaries. I'm not picking on America- it's just that 90% of the ones I watch are from America. Here are the opening lines "They were living the American dream, a good Christian family, regular members of the local church- the last place you would expect a man to get his brains blown out." This should be changed by default to "They were living the American dream, an atheist family, who never went to church- definitely the place where you expect somebody to get their brains blown out."
That is effectively what they are insinuating, whether they mean it or not. It seems they are saying, if you are Christian, then by default, you are an inherently good person. Closely followed by "this is the last place you would expect a murder." and "we all used to leave our doors unlocked, but this murder changed everything" Leaving your door unlocked, when it takes 0.4 seconds to turn the key, is quite frankly asking to be robbed, but certainly inviting trouble of a worst kind. I lived in the 60s and 70s- nobody left their house unlocked.

Richard
3/5/2018 03:10:48 pm

Have you seen this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

Richard
3/5/2018 03:27:14 pm

Part two https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

Lemonboy
3/5/2018 05:19:11 pm

Agreed Richard all of zodiac’s victims were at the wrong place at the wrong time. He only sent one threatening letter to Paul Avery and seems he forgot about him after that. He didn’t even go after survivors like Hartnell and Mageau in contrast to a serial killer like East Area Rapist. Seems like after he was done with someone he was done.

Lemonboy
3/5/2018 05:28:40 pm

I don’t believe he stalked them before of after. I believe by stalking there’s a weird connection that the stalker feels with the victim where with Zodiac it feels like there just numbers to his tally. Hit and run murders. But like you said Richard were not serial killers so we can’t think like one so we’re just speculating.

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 06:03:49 pm

I agree Richard, but sometimes serial killers are the redneck, back woods, trigger happy types, who have no time for religion. Serial killers can come from many backgrounds. There just seems to be a greater propensity for them to come from religious backgrounds and "wholesome" families in America for some reason.

Wow, I was truly blessed. We had no need to lock our houses where I lived until the late 1970s. Maybe we were naive, but there was no crime apart from the occasional weekend drunk driver. Then the 70s/80s came along and all of a sudden the petty theft started showing its ugly face, followed closely by more serious crimes. Today you would not even be game to leave your beer sitting outside or some mongrel would probably steal it. And of course these days everybody locks everything, which is often pointless, because they break in anyway if they want to steal something, even if people are home. Drug use was unheard of when I was a kid, but by the 70s the signs were showing. Today drugs like Speed and Ice are an epidemic and have contributed greatly to the crime rate.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/5/2018 02:58:47 pm

Well there is a problem immediately,if you are unable to distinguish,between the literal and the figurative.

Were you unaware that ''zillion'' doesn't carry literal description ?

Given that Law Enforcement were in the dock,for harassment of Mr.Grant,owing to the belief that he was a Zodiac suspect.And,that Mr.Grant was the person that put Law Enforcement in the dock over this matter,in order for them to lawfully leave him alone....

Then it is incredulous to anyone that you,Ray,would make such a remark as doubting that Grant knew who Zodiac was ?

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 05:53:09 pm

Literal, figurative, what are you on about? You sound very disingenuous in your statement if you ask me. Your reply sounds like something convoluted a politician might say to win an argument. Kind of sitting on the fence, both sides either side, but leaning a bit more one than the other, hoping said fence isn't electrified or barbed.

I am not sure how Grant even vaguely relates to the Zodiac case except that he was suspected by Lafferty, and much of Lafferty's ramblings are just that... literary ramblings and speculation, lacking in any proof. Where is the proof Grant was known by the Zodiac? If zillion has no literal description, why did you use it? I certainly didn't use the word. Why not say what you mean in plain English so we can all understand why Grant is so damned important?

Rubislaw 32 link
3/5/2018 06:37:29 pm

Connolly finally gets it [!].Now he is really clued in.

Unlucky.....Ray.

Good ''waffle''.....but no cigar.

Ray Jenkins
3/5/2018 07:37:27 pm

Oh the farcical art of the facetious! As you are sinking rapidly, with no foundation beneath your feet, please do let us know when you feel the sting of that fence on which you sit, seeing as both legs are firmly astride it. One must be either convinced of something or not convinced, but it seems that in Zodiacland one can be entirely convinced of something without needing to provide a single shred of proof. I guess they call that "wanting to have your cake and eating it too". Perhaps Grant's mythical smoking gun that ties him to the Zodiac can be found with the lost minutes of the Watergate tape, or more suitably placed in the back of Sandy's sewing rags box?

Judith
3/5/2018 06:02:04 pm

Queue "The Doors" Killer on the road. All up and down Interstate 5. All the way down to LA and up to Canada. From one point to another and all points in between. He is a hunter.

KayElleSF
3/5/2018 10:10:46 pm

Very apropos...I will never listen to that song the same again.

Shawn
3/6/2018 11:48:05 am

Hello,

On a Different Subject. Maybe we can Glean some insight on
the Zodiac Killer from the Golden State Killer..

Mike Morford, Owner of ZodiacKillerSite.com is heavy into the "Golden State Killer" right now.

GSK makes ZK look like an angel. Seems like GSK made almost every murder and rape getaway like a Paul Stine getaway. Somewhat lucky but probably lots of planning.

Mike is doing a weekly Podcast on GSK and was on Investigative
Discovery TV network last night regarding the GSK.

Mike on Investigation Discovery TV channel below...

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/people-magazine-investigates/full-episodes/golden-state-killer

Mike's Weekly Podcasts on GSK below...

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/true-crime-all-the-time/criminology

Shawn
3/6/2018 11:54:20 am

BTW....

There were community meetings in Sacramento, California regarding the Golden State Killer.

At one meeting, one man stood up and said he could not believe GSK (one man) could take over a household full of people and get away with murder and rape.

A few months later the man that stood up at the community meeting and his wife were murdered by GSK.

Also....

A newspaper article regarding GSK reported the rapist (only raping then) never attack a house with a male in it.

GSK next attack was at a house with a male in it.

Don
4/27/2018 01:56:11 am

John,

Those actions are looked at by a narcissist and a psychopath as a challenge. He also showed he played by no rules at all.


Comments are closed.
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    The Zodiac Killer may have given us the answer almost word-for-word when he wrote PS. The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians. The code solution identified was Estimate: Four Radians and Five Inches To read more, click the image.
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Photos used under Creative Commons from Marcin Wichary, zAppledot, vyusseem, Alex Barth, Alan Cleaver, jocelynsart, Richard Perry, taberandrew, eschipul, MrJamesAckerley