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Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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IN THIS CIPHER IS MY IDENTITY

3/16/2018

 
THE 340 CIPHER WAS CRACKED ON DECEMBER 3RD 2020 BY DAVE ORANCHAK, SAM BLAKE AND JARL VAN EYCKE, SO THIS EARLIER ARTICLE SHOULD BE VIEWED IN RESPECT TO RECENT DEVELOPMENTS.
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The following will provide an alternative to an earlier article 'The Lake Berryessa Greeting Card,' regarding the inspiration of the 340 character cipher and the two week period it was designed by the Zodiac Killer. 

On October 22nd 1969, Will Stevens wrote an article for the San Francisco Examiner entitled Cipher Expert Dares Zodiac to Tell Name. Dr D.C.B. Marsh, president of the American Cryptogram Association challenged Zodiac to reveal his name by creating a cipher for them to crack. He stated "The killer wouldn't dare, as he claimed in letters to the newspapers, to reveal his name in a cipher to established cryptogram experts. "Zodiac" had not done this, Marsh suggested, because to tell the complete truth in relation to his name, in cipher code, would lead to his capture. I invite 'Zodiac' to send The American Cryptogram Association a cipher code-however complicated".

​
Michael Cole authored an excellent article detailing how Zodiac would take up this challenge exactly six months later, when he mailed the 13 Symbol Cipher to the newspapers, beginning with the line "This is the Zodiac speaking. By the way have you cracked the last cipher I sent you. My name is...."  However, we will slightly deviate from the Michael Cole article by suggesting that both the 340 character cipher and 13 Symbol Cipher were responses initiated by the challenge of Dr D.C.B. Marsh. He issued the challenge - however complicated - and Zodiac would certainly oblige with his most complex cipher of all, just 17 days later. The Zodiac Killer, knowing he was dealing with cryptogram experts such as  Dr D.C.B. Marsh, professor of mathematics at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden, would certainly not disappoint, mailing the 340 character cipher just over two weeks later. He would then follow up on April 20th 1970 with a smaller code, implying he was now prepared to reveal his name.  

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In his first correspondence to the newspapers the Zodiac Killer promised that the 408 Cipher would contain his name, by stating "In this cipher is my idenity". This notion would soon be quashed, when the three-part cipher was cracked by Donald Gene and Bettye June Harden of Salinas, California in a matter of days.

But this challenge on October 22nd 1969 was laid down by cryptogram experts, and probably the reason the Zodiac Killer went to the extreme, creating a cipher that remains unbroken nearly half a century later. 
Dr D.C.B. Marsh​ stated "The killer wouldn't dare, as he claimed in letters to the newspapers, to reveal his name in a cipher". But the Zodiac wasn't going to play ball that easily, yet he did likely answer this challenge directly on the final line of the 340 character cipher by revealing his name in part. He placed the 'near Zodiac' from character 333 to 338. 

In the 408 Cipher, the final section of the decoded message read "
I will not give you my name because you will try to slow down or stop my collecting of slaves for my afterlife". The 13 Symbol Cipher opened with the line "This is the Zodiac speaking. By the way have you cracked the last cipher I sent you. My name is...."  Therefore, this should give us a clue to how the Zodiac Killer constructed the final two lines of the 340 character cipher, bearing in mind it was a response to the challenge proffered by Dr D.C.B. Marsh, and in part, revealed his pseudonym Zodiac. Here is one example of how the Zodiac may have signed off the 340 Cipher, when you consider there are only two symbols after the 'near Zodiac,' in positions 339 and 340. There cannot be many reasonable options to consider for a two-letter word.  

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There are of course alternatives, such as "I will soon tell you who the Zodiac is", "My next cipher will reveal who the Zodiac is" or "The day will come when you'll know who Zodiac is". There are a myriad of possibilities, but always with the final two words being "Zodiac is".

If the Zodiac began the 340 character cipher top down, are we to believe the 'near Zodiac' fell out by chance, and was not created specifically as a response to the American Cryptogram Association to reveal his name. The cipher may have signed off with something similar to the wording above, but could have been created from the bottom up, so as to lead us into his next cipher on April 20th 1970. The 408 cipher stated "I will not give you my name because you will try to slow down or stop my collecting of slaves for my afterlife". The Zodiac Killer was then laid down a challenge on October 22nd 1969, and we know his propensity to reply to individuals when challenged. Seventeen days later, a cipher arrived at the San Francisco Chronicle. Can this be a coincidence such a short time after the challenge by Dr D.C.B. Marsh? He signs off the 340 character cipher, now promising he will soon reveal who the Zodiac is. Then 5 months later, he is seemingly true to his promise, stating "This is the Zodiac speaking. By the way have you cracked the last cipher I sent you. My name is...."
The second and third ciphers may be linked by the name Zodiac and a simple trick of mathematics, shown here. 
​           
PictureClick the image above to read Michael Cole's excellent article and view the whole newspaper cutting
Did the fact that Dr D.C.B. Marsh, being a professor of mathematics, play any part in this possible numerical solution, or the Zodiac Killer's  circled three eights (if indeed that is what they were). The killer would later state in the April 20th 1970 letter "PS I hope you have fun trying to figgure out who I killed".
​​​   
Dr Marsh told the Examiner "That first code was complicated... and the maker obviously knew what he was doing. But it never included the true identity of Zodiac". But can we be sure the Zodiac read this article and responded from his basement residence.

Look at the accompanying news article to the 
Dr D.C.B. Marsh article, entitled  "Tunisia Hit by Heavy Rains". It reads "New torrential rains pounded Tunisia all last night and today, nearly isolating Tunis and Bezerte from the rest of the country. Broadcasts warned residents of low-lying suburbs to head for higher ground. Basements filled, and some ancient buildings in the Medina showed signs of crumbling". The Zodiac Killer replied in the April 20th 1970 offering, by stating "I have killed ten people to date. It would have been a lot more except that my bus bomb was a dud.  I was swamped out by the rain we had a while back". This however, is most likely too cryptic even for Zodiac. 

But the fact remains, that 
Dr D.C.B. Marsh set the Zodiac Killer a challenge, and a little over two weeks later he responded with an even more "complicated" cipher than the 408, possibly promising the professor of mathematics a solution to his identity in due course. One that arrived on April 20th 1970 - but whether it held true to the promise of his name is another matter.​ 

Michael Cole- 
http://zodiacrevisited.com/name-cipher-motivation

The Hunt for Zodiac: The Inconceivable Double Life of a Notorious Serial Killer
Richard
3/17/2018 02:04:41 am

Rubislaw, you can take a pass on this.

Alex Lewis
3/17/2018 02:03:57 pm

Hey Rich, just a quick drop by to say I always used to point out that to say "In this Cipher is my idebtity" does not have to mean "In this Cipher is my Name" but the author likely knows this will be the presumption made.

We are talking about a man who demonstrates A clear fondness of word games and word play.

Then, only lyrics several weeks back Rich did I see or notice it...

He doesn't even say "In this Cipher is My Identity" The writer misspells the word Identity. He write his 'Idenity' is within it. Identity is, like His Mind, not all there. His word is lacking a 'T' as a missing letter, while the author like His own Lacking ability in feeling Empathy, Remorse and a Conscience.

Never in all these years noticed that many of misspelling Rich, not till several weeks ago.

Richard
3/17/2018 04:42:55 pm

Yes it's easy to miss these things Alex, but I rarely read too much into them, other than a killer attempting to mislead the reader into believing he wasn't of great intelligence. He often spelled words correctly and incorrectly, and much of his correspondence looks forced to create an impression of a man, rather than the man himself. I was pointed to the likelihood the killer wrote "The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of barking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west".
But I've always taken it as "parking" not "barking". How are you Alex, nice to hear from you.

Alex Lewis
3/17/2018 09:17:05 pm

Yeah I agree that his spelling errors were, 98% at least if not all IMO, deliberate. I didn't mean the word identity was spelled in error deliberate or purposely, just that it is. Spells of 'Kid' and then 'Cid' is a hint at an obvious deliberate misspell (If you rule trldyslexia as a cause anyhow).

But yeah, Im so-so mate, and yourself?

PS - Of recent times, this case has lost the magnetic like pull & the desire, passion, energy and my desire to keep digging, pushing against walls and all that... Just isn't there for me anymore at present.

Only so many times u can kick a dead horse mate. That's how it feels lately for myself anyway.

Richard
3/18/2018 03:10:49 am

I understand that feeling Alex. I said to you years ago that there are only so many times you can go to the well. Everybody has a shelf life in the Zodiac case before you get tired of banging your head off a brick wall. Investigators are cash strapped and underfunded by politicians who are only interested in getting rich off the back of corporate money. This money goes on Armani suits, private jets, walled off community homes worth tens of millions, servants etc, while the American people and police working on solving crimes are being defunded and cutback. There are little resources to investigate crimes of today, let alone yesteryear. I know this first hand, because I have been wasting my time trying to make headway in this case by trying to secure documents and police reports. The reality Alex, is the police take the shit, but it's the corrupt politicians that fail to fund them. Many police departments have thousands upon thousands of cold cases with as little as one assigned officer, if none at all, with a DNA backlog. Watch some crime documentaries where they say it will take weeks or months to get the DNA results back- are you serious. The harsh reality, is that this case will never be solved. In fact Jack the Ripper has got more chance of being solved. The real murderers are these corporate politicians who take backhanders all day, while screwing over the good American people. Until we get these corrupt individuals out of office, I'm afraid the funding for cold cases throughout the country will only reduce. and this case destined to remain unsolved. There is a lot of animosity for the police,with good reason, but in current and case of cold case funding, they are hopelessly let down. Until the greed merchants at the top are removed, nothing will change. But when that happens Alex, I'll have long gone and doing something worthwhile.

Alex Lewis
3/23/2018 08:44:10 am

No I absolutely agree with what your saying Rich about the police getting the shit for what are essentially the decisions made by politicians which the police themselves gave no control over. I remember telling you I had read a interview with two recently retired SFPD Homicide Inspectors who echoed exactly what you just stated.

They said that they were working the Zodiac case on a part time basis in work hours and officially and assumed this would be fine until word got back to the peak of the Pyramid of authority in rank at SFPD. When it did they got a visit from the Chief of SFPD himself who warned them in so many words: 'Leave it alone, or be transferred out of Homicide' with the Chief telling them they have dozens of recent unsolved homicides to solve, homicides where daily the families are on the phone wanting updates. That reasoning by the chief is more than understandable so the two Inspectors decided to take the files home and get together out of hours on their own time to investigate Zodiac.

They stated they believed this would not tread on any higher up toes but the Chief again got wind of this and came back to the two and was absolutely furious and told them this was their final warning even threatening to charge them with theft of, or tampering with, evidence for taking the files home. The message was clear, leave the Z case or be transfered to a desk job. The two now retired said they can understand the chiefs anger in them officially investigating the Z case but on their own time they were stunned and said they believed, for whatever reason, the higher ups don't want that case touched.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 02:33:55 am

To your good health,Richard [!].

All I was going to add is that I have found that Zodiac never did leave his real identity,in any of his ciphers.

Naturally,other's opinions are their own.

In ''Z63'',he refers to himself as ''Mister Zodiac''.And,in ''Z263'',Red Phantom,Imperial Wizard and ''Zodiac''.

One has to ask : ''Why would he leave his identity ?''.Indeed,as if offering up the prize of someone pointing him out to the authorities.

For Zodiac,it was about survival and longevity of his covert image,on his terms.

Shawn
3/17/2018 07:42:04 am

Zodiac said he would leave his identity.

Identity does not necessarily mean name. As he said he would not give his name in the 408, but in the letter he says you can find my Identity.

Identity could mean Social Security number, Military I.D. number or a myriad of other ways to clue someone to his name..

Zodiac could have easily left his name in a cipher (maybe the 408) in such a complicated way only the Zodiac would know how to decode it.

Even though he said he would not leave his name, he is a proven liar.



Richard
3/17/2018 08:08:47 am

When Zodiac wrote about killing schoolchildren or planting a bomb, these could be interpreted as threats or bluffs that never materialized. Bearing in mind he said identity rather than name, we still, as Shawn stated, do not know for certain if he left a form of identity, particularly because of the unsolved 18 letters at the foot of the cipher. But if we look at his three communications, the Debut of Zodiac letter, the Paul Stine letter, along with the Bus Bomb letter, can we actually prove one single lie the Zodiac stated about any of his canonical five crimes. Something he claimed in any of these letters he stated he did, which we know to be factually incorrect. If so which?

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 08:22:58 am

Yes,I think ''we'' mean information,in whatever form,that would secure Zodiac's arrest,Shawn.

So,it is of interest that you mention SS number and Military I.D.

I have found no evidence of ''numerics'' or ''alphanumerics'' employed as part of Zodiac's cipher solutions.

I would have thought that Roman numerals would have appealed to him [?]. I,V,X,L,C etc.

The last cipher,I am examining,is Z148,solved by the Hecks.I believe it may have originally been a ''Z361''.And therefore,might reveal something more.

What I have considered,recently,is that Zodiac might have posted another cipher,on the scale of ''Z408'' and ''Z340''.

One that the authorities have held back from the public,since it reveals more details,than they wish us to know about [?].

Such concerns,as ''vigilantism'' could become heightened,if ''ambiguous'' information,were to become public.

That is why,also,ideas such as large rewards,are frowned upon,by the authorities.Though not illegal,they could encourage ''reckless'' behaviour.

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 01:30:15 am

I have never bought into the school of thought that says Z secretly wanted to be caught and evidence of which can be seen in His pleading letter to Melvin for help. Excuse the expression but: Bullshit!

"The one thing I ask u is this: plz help me!" if he was honest he'd have continued "Plz help me, I was engaged in conversation with cops who now know exactly what I look like, Chief Lee says he has my print I left & it's only a matter of time before my door is smashed in the by 10 SWAT members so, so it's not my fault I kill, it's this thing in me!"

In other words planting the seeds for a worst case scenario imminent Arrest by offering us a "I'm a deranged nutcase mot on control of my own self and actions' defense.

"Please help me..."

OK, would help to know who you are first Zode!

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 01:36:18 am

He may as well have phoned SFPD declaring he wishes to give himself up and when asked where he can be found to send units to take him into custody say: "You can find me unarmed in a residence in the United States of America. Plz, hurry before I do my thing!"

Drew
3/24/2018 09:59:01 am

Hey Alex, great to have you back!

I don't really think Zodiac was scared about getting captured. I think his motive to write the Belli letter was to reclaim his name after "Sam" made a sham of it on the Dunbar show. You were recently observing the spelling mistakes throughout Zodiac's letters and noting that he would also sometimes spell the same words correctly such as cid/kid. When I read "help me I am drownding" or I will "loose all controol" I think he is being sarcastic, mocking the sad, pathetic call in guy.

Zodiac also may have been frustrated that they didn't print his bomb threat a month earlier and saw the opportunity for major media coverage in the pseudo celebrity Belli who was introduced to the story through the Dunbar nut bar. He knew they would have to take it seriously because it was bonafide by shirt piece 3 of 4. From what I understand he even copied the careful font style from Belli's address to prove he had been there. Like the Exorcist letter it is hard to take his vulnerability at face value when he is simultaneously threatening murder.

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 06:30:11 pm

Hey Drew, thank you and I will say good to be back but I'm never gone too far from this topics forums and sites etc.

Yeah the Children if the Bay Area were never in danger if and when boarding yellow buses, Z said that himself that they took him a.and his threat seriously he thought was deserving of having holes in their heads.

Z was not stupid, he knew simply putting a small paragraph taking 30 seconds to pen would start a chain reaction that I can almost see him with feet up watching if unfold and laughing while muttering:"Look at these Blue Meanies! I Plane's, Choppers, Armed Cops on busses or escorted by Prowl cars while out on school runs... F%#£@¡g idiots!"

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 07:12:45 pm

The taking credit thing Drew is another of them peculiar reactions by Zodiac in that there is no reaction from Him. When the New York serial shows up killing Two or Three then firing off a letter from the o the editor saying he is responsible for these recent killings, signing Himself 'Zodiac' and then clarifying he not just 'A' of Zodiac, no no,! He insists he is the Same Z that was active in CA!

Now in the Serial killing community, there appears to be little else higher than this in height of insult! Serials are miswired & and to them, they will see their homicide scenes the same was as Mozart would write and perform the most wonderful piece of music, or Picasso paint a stunning masterpiece etc. So if a 'false prophet', so to speak comes along to take credit to for writing and performing Beth ovens Masterpiece, the composer isn't going to allow it while remaining silent.

And as for the the Dim Dumby-Barbar show with San, never gave it any attention as 'Sam' was as believable as Z as Mel seemed about questioning this homicidal nut.

Goes without saying that, quite obviously, with only the most relevant & important questions that We, and more importantly Law Enforcement, were desperately wishing to know the answers to!

"So Sam... tell us..... How long hav you had these headaches?"
REALLY!!!

Thispyscho is shooting people in the heads because he says it so much fun and Mel is on the air Live asking how often he gets fu&%@ng headaches!

Maybe we should to make sure our friend isn't still very upset over that whole Z buttons thing before we take his temperature!

Ray Jenkins
3/24/2018 07:30:27 pm

Yes, the deafening silence from someone who was earlier so egotistical and vocal with his pen, tends to suggest he was well and truly out of the picture by the time of Son of Sam. He was also silent when the Manson family played Zodiac and copy-catted him in some of their threatening letters. So was he dead, incarcerated, drooling into his soup in an asylum, or whatever, by the early to mid- 1970s? It does seem so.

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 10:36:03 pm

He could have been dead and gone Ray Yes, or His lack of outrage at several other copycats claiming they were actually 'The' original San Francisco Z, ie claiming to be him in person. Then others simply committed Copyright infringement by 'Borrowing' His moniker : 'Zodiac' neither of which outraged him into a response.

It could point to Him not being what we think or assume he was, that being what we today see and understand as A genuine Serial Killer.

A serial killer as we understand them today or as the FBI Behavioral Science Unit define this type of killer to be in terms of once they go from fantasy to reality making their first kill... the absolute compulsive desire to kill & keep killing will not subside nor retreat. John Douglas is clear that serials may, on rare occasions stop or vastly reduce the No. of victims Annually (Ridgway & Rader are the two classic examples) but they will not, because they can or, stop completely.

Ted Bundy twice escaped prison & had no desire to lay low, avoid drawing any unwanted attention to himself as we may endeavour to do an escapee who also made and featured on the FBI ten most wanted. Not Bundy, his intent and reason for escaping twice is clear... To get straight back to kill and kill again

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 04:00:29 am

You are correct. The Grim Sleeper was so called because he appeared to take a 14-year break from his crimes.

I think the Zodiac was a serial killer but maybe not strictly in the terms of the traditional definition. The haphazard nature of his crimes is what makes him difficult to define. The letters and what they conveyed always seemed more important to him than the act of killing. To my mind he was the "kind" of serial killer who would have been mentally able to "take an extended vacation" from killing when it suited him, or if he had been faced with no other alternative but to "go straight" until it all died down. Or had he already attained some magic number and this satisfied him? We may never know.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 08:48:51 am

An interesting question,Richard,on anything possibly ''contradictory'',with the canonical crimes.

There are still aspects of Zodiac's references to Stine's murder,debated to this day.I have heard that the authorities take issue,in part....but this is unsubstantiated.

As referred previously,I claim that the ''Z32'' solution is ''I keep it heeled in at Candlestick Park''.If true,then it pretty well nails any thoughts that Zodiac's bomb threats amounted to anything more than a joke.

But,I believe that the authorities weren't convinced anyway....but could not be seen to be taking this view.

For Zodiac,it was buying into the ''Pied Piper of Hamlyn''...people's greatest fear of all,is that their children should be vulnerable to harm.

Shawn
3/17/2018 09:17:29 am

He does not seem to lie about the general details of his four attacks.

He does appear to be a liar regarding to threats...and maybe more regarding info outside his four confirmed attacks.

In his three debut letters (only one chance at a first impression) he stated....

"I want you to print this cipher on the frunt page by Fry afternoon Aug 1-69. If you do not print this cipher, I will go on a kill rampage Fry night. This will last the whole weekend, I will cruse around killing people who are alone at night untill Sun Night or un till I kill a dozen people."

This is an outright lie. None of the papers published the ciphers on the front page by the time frame he set and as I far as I know there was no mass killings that weekend of a dozen people.

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 01:47:26 am

Maybe not lie about his 'Good times' no, but he seems to forget details easily.

"I am the murderer of the two teenagers out on Lake Herman Road last year, and the girl on the 4th July..."

FF: "I am the same man who did in the the people in the North Bay area..."

He goes from knowing & recalling the victims were teens and they were killed on the specific place of... LHR. Then he seems to forget who these were only able to say these were 'people' and killed in a vastly general North Bay area.

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 01:50:36 am

Either he has hit his head causing memory loss, maybe amnesia or the later author is not the same writer as the man who penned the initial Aug. 69 letters.

Judith
3/17/2018 09:29:04 am

The illustration that you post of zodiac without eyeglasses on looks just like my ex-husband Peter Plante. See my old thread on Zodiac Killer.com, under General discussion, under the category of Etc., under Tit Willow, you will still see many photos of Peter. Notice all the P.S. in the letters sent by the Zodiac Killer. P.S. P.S. Peter's initials are P.S.P. Zodiac says " My name is..." and nobody can solve it

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 04:10:47 am

This is actually quite plausible. I have always felt that if the Zodiac left his name or some other clue to his identity it would be "hidden in plain sight". So a P.S. serving as initials is certainly enticing. I guess the problem is we can find a lot of names and initials in the letters and ciphers. Smack bang in the center of the paradise/slaves cross are the vertical initials RAD (Robert Alan Durst?), but going counterclockwise we get DLR (Dennis Lynn Rader?). But of course Paradise Slaves also gives us the initial P.S. Very interesting!

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 01:59:52 pm

Identity can mean or be different things to different people. If I said today "Goodbye, I've signed up and am going off to begin Basic Training in The British Army in hopes of finding my identity...". Not one person reading that would assume I mean "I'm off to Armed Forces as I've forgot what my own name is & I I hope Army can tell me.."

Ray Jenkins
3/27/2018 03:11:50 pm

You are correct of course Alex. He could have provided small clues to his identity, not necessarily being his name or initials. As just one possible scenario, the "return address" symbol on the envelope looks a bit like an aerial drawing of an air force base. The problem lies in our interpretation of these "clues". Is it really a diagram of an air force base, or something else, like a street address, or a symbol representing something to do with his occupation? Therein lies the problem. It is the simple problem of interpretation. Different people will interpret things differently, and how many will be correct in interpreting things the way the Zodiac intended?

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 06:48:09 pm

I think Ray, and this is just My own personal perspective or opinion but, I think sometimes people read what Z says, maybe a claim he makes, and give it too much stock and/or attention when all it is designed by Z to do is have people run down road sign-posted 'Road to Nowhere' or 'Dead End Avenue.'

Zodiac bragged about His abilities and 'Good Times' he has had saying once that He kills 'Cids' yes, but he longs for a victim with A badge because there's much glory to be attained in offing a pig because 'They can shoot back.'

Now in Zodiacs own head, he probably believes and even envisions himself shooting at cops. That's the fantasy in his own mind of who he is, when in reality, this individual will not go within Ten Feet of an unarmed Citizen called Bryan, ordering the Female on scene to incapacitate Bryan before He (even thought armed with gun & knife ) will go anywhere near the unarmed Male, Bryan H.

Yet He claims to wish to draw his gun and point it at A cop, and a cop is a Man who is a member of A Force, a force that are armed and can when required respond to Scenes by the Dozen and yet because Z states His desire to take out a Blue Meanie, there are many who believe Him in that given the chance to draw, aim and fire at cop or cops, He wouldn't think twice.

What happened when We arrive at Jackson St. then Z? Two Cops pulled a goof but before pulling the good they were pulling you over to their car to quetion you. What a fantastic opportunity to blast Two cops away stopped in front of Him like two little sitting ducks? What happened Z? No shots fired from either parties! Very disappointing!

Zelms Widow stated after Zelms passed away that Eric confided in His Wife that He and Don did stop and speak with A White Male on Jackson St. and said this WMA that was actually Zodiac spoke softly, was completely calm and answered all questions satisfyingly and quote:

"He just looked like your average guy, nothing stood out about Him & He gave us no reason at all to be suspicious of Him. "

Quiet, soft spoken,

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 06:54:38 pm

Movie Title with appropriate tag line?

'The Zodiac Killer! A Legend (In His Own Mind atnyway!!)

Ray Jenkins
3/27/2018 07:41:11 pm

Yes indeed. The Harry Callahan, "Make My Day" movie franchise could have put the Zodiac on their payroll I feel, as they exploited Zodiac-like behavior and idiosyncrasies to their fullest, inevitably turning them into stereotypes.

In the final movie, the Dead Pool, we meet the deranged character Harlan Rook. Harlan had a mental condition known as "processed schizophrenia", apparently a condition where he had no personality of his own and instead would imitate people, events, and heroes from books and movies because of his self-hatred. He lived in the fantasy worlds of horror movies and had developed an extreme love/hate relationship with celebrities in his own mind.

Unlike the Zodiac, Harlan was not very verbose in his taunts to the police. He just wrote up "little lists" of celebrities he intended to "off", and wrote RIP beside their names.

As a good friend once told me, the more people write the more slip ups they will make. And through their writing they will always say something about themselves. So no matter how hard they try they will still ultimately reveal something about themselves, even if it is something as seemingly trivial as referencing comic books or Gilbert and Sullivan. It could mean they either love these things or hate them, or both. Whatever the case, the very fact that they referenced them will always tell us something about the person, regardless of how circumstantial or trivial they may appear. They may still provide a clue to the person's personality or identity in some way.

Of course the other way to look at it is that everything the Zodiac wrote about was just a taunt, a ruse and therefore a lie intended to deceived the police and make them waste their time running abut in circles. But when we consider how verbose the Zodiac was, I find the idea of it all being an elaborate ruse or schizophrenic fantasy does not mesh. People can only be so random in the lying and even when they are lying they are still telling us something about themselves, even if it is inadvertent.

I have found myself on either side of the fence on numerous occasions, so I can certainly see where you are coming from.

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly, the Zodiac did indeed want to portray himself as a legend, even though in reality this legendary status was only in his own mind.

Alex Lewis
3/28/2018 01:08:16 am

Well one of the original Latin Law Maxims still acknowledged by the Law Society to this very day does state:

'In Ambiguity, that which is more worthy or credible are to be believed. It does not matter how many people believe a lie, it is still a lie.'

Ray Jenkins
3/28/2018 04:17:22 am

You don't seem to get it.

Alex Lewis
4/4/2018 05:14:32 pm

Zodiacs denies blowing up a cop station but states: "But there is more glory in killing a cop than a cid (sic) because cops can shoot back..."

Well what are the chances He would pull a pistol and open fire at cops when all evidence appears to suggest he is petrified of unarmed Male Citizens?

- Stays well back from Hartnell until Cecelia has bound and incapacitated the unarmed Hartnell.
- Aims and fires at Male Mile Mageaus head as He walked up to passenger door to kill Him instantly. Mageau, seeing the gun raised and aimed, threw his head backward causing what would, in all liklihood have been, a fatal head shot.
- Lake Herman, no survivors or witnesses but we know David was shot once behind the ear suggesting a sneeky, blidsided attack in which the killer shoots him from behind.

So to use an analogy, what Zodiac is suggesting is:

"I wish to take on a Adult White Shark" when We have evidence showing Him being frightened to death of Gold Fish.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 10:55:09 am

Of interest,that you mention the ''My name is....'' cryptogram,again,Judith.

That one deserves an award,for aesthetics.

The upside down ''look'' of ''want to know name''.

This does illustrate,the time and pride that Zodiac was capable of investing,in ''presentation''.And,using any tactic to divert a potential solver,away from the ''bones'' of the real problem,to be solved.

Of course,the reality is that nobody is in a position to ''prove'' that ''Z13'' is solved.

It is too short,to ''beg favours'' from Probability Theory.

Drew
3/17/2018 02:41:53 pm

Hey Rubislaw, I see the upside down "Wanto" in the My Name Is cipher, and I love the idea, but how do we rationalize the rest of the 'Know My Name' phrase? Is there any more to the theory?

Drew
3/17/2018 02:49:28 pm

I've considered that it looks a bit like 'Ain't (aent) K My Name (nam)' but that of course uses a zodiac symbol as a "t", an upside down taurus as a "y", ignores the other symbols, and ultimately it makes little sense that if he was named "K" that he would leave this message... My favourite solution remains Arthur E Neuman though - I think LE should definitely pick that guy up!

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 01:57:05 am

'Want to' is one, another is 'MANYNAME' when read backwards starting at the third N: MAN=NAM E MANY'

Alex Lewis
3/24/2018 02:06:32 am

I apologise I meant starting at second to last letter of M of TNAM. The T curls and kinda resembles a Y si maybe its MANY WANT NAE, WE MANYNAME, MANYWANTNAME or, as you can if you want to,

'SEEWHATUWANTOSEE'

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 04:14:06 pm

It's a difficult call,to pin Zodiac down,definitively,Drew.

We could say that he operated ''left field'',and deliberately out of focus [?].

''The Picasso of Lexicography''.

Judith
3/17/2018 04:25:15 pm

So what is the probability of matching the symbols in the "my name is" cipher to the 340 symbols as deciphered in Graysmith's book and finding exactly the letters that comprise your suspect's name? See my thread. Thanks. Getting ready for the Jameson's so I probably shouldn't post anymore tonight. The Luck of the Irish.

Rubislaw 32 link
3/17/2018 05:03:44 pm

I'll make a point of looking into that question,Judith.

But it wouldn't be fair on anyone,to make an immediate judgement.

In Zodiac's ''408'',I have found that he employed 8 symbols to have polyphonic qualities.In essence,he ''cheated'',with the use of those 8 symbols.

In Zodiac's ''340'',I have found that Zodiac ''cheated'',when employing 6 particular symbols.

I can't see that Graysmith's solution ''effort'' for the ''340'',accounted for Zodiac's,albeit limited,''cheating''.

But,I will find your Z13 solution,to have another look.Your solution really could be,as good as anyone's....and may even be ''The one''.

Tom
3/18/2018 05:55:34 am

He left “clews” to his identity without leaving his name in a cipher. That is abundantly clear. He could only be refering to the letter writing and the ciphers themselves. That is the trail he left, but where does it lead?

Rubislaw 32 link
3/18/2018 07:46:17 am

Yes Tom,you make the point well.

I would say that from a personal point of view.When,as I claim,I recently solved the ''riddle'' of ''Z263'',which of course,is related to the 1988 New Canaan letters.....I uncovered Zodiac's identity ''by implication''....but a real name,nevertheless.

Of course I am unable to reveal that real name....but it gave me another opportunity to give ''the authorities'' a ''roasting rebuke'',since in theory,I was helping them out,further.

Things are happening ''behind closed doors''.....but it is too slow...and ''these people'' having made ''vague promises'' to bereaved of victims....then proceed to continue working their 5 day weeks....with a knowing ''out clause'' of counting out time,if they can't put a prosecution case,together.

In my book,as,if only a member of the public,''this''is simply not good enough.

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 07:18:09 pm

Never mind Zodiac giving 'Clews' tothe His Identity Thomas, its illegal to post here using only a First/Christian Name and so I'm sure you don't want to break the law and all that so please, without delay, disclose your Family Name Immediately!

PS: Please please pretty please say its 'Voigt', I promise if it is you Mr Void I shall behave & you have my word Sir, I will not upset you to point of tears again. Honest Now Tom, and ummmm, yeah Gaikowski is Zodiac and no doubt and stuff! I swear, I I have already bowed the knee just incase I speak with Royal Blue Blood of Z Community in shape of...

Rt. Hon. Too-Mass De' La Voided Phantom thing! (Crying in Rage!) !

Shawn
3/18/2018 07:00:53 am

Richard,

I notice recently you have continually expressed your frustrations with the Zodiac case. (dealing with police)

From what i read, basically you feel like you are banging your head on the wall and maybe wasting your time that can spent on more productive projects.

Yet, every time it seems you are going to give up on the Zodiac case (stop devoting your time to the case) you write two or three more articles.

What is your mindset on proceeding with continued Zodiac research and continual maintenance of this website?

Are you winding down your Zodiac research? The case will not be solved as you put it.

Are you at a fork in the road and stuck?

Richard
3/18/2018 09:06:41 am

I just get a little frustrated from time to time Shawn. More so with what I'm able to contribute in terms of material. I would love to secure something new, like an unreleased Zodiac correspondence or withheld police report on say Riverside or Lake Tahoe, or even get extra information on the Saechao/Salee murders, as opposed to just writing an article on something about a Zodiac crime that, whether interesting or not, will never push the case forward at all. The eagerness to find something compelling and fresh in a stagnant case is sometimes frustrating. I have all the time in the world to contact not just the police departments, but the newspapers- but I guess the way the case has unfolded over the past few decades, they likely get so much contact from the public, they have simply got bored with dealing with them-understandably. Sitting by a computer screen rolling over the same old letters and cards for fresh inspiration is extremely limiting- and it is that limitation that frustrates. Access to police departments, newspapers held on microfiche, prison records or possibly visiting America would be great, but stuck here in the UK, solving this case or even pushing it forward 0.01% is nigh on impossible- even convincing individuals to give up just 5 minutes of their time to answer a simple email. I will certainly maintain the website Shawn, but whatever people think, I still get frustrated by writing articles that I deem stagnant, when I know there is so much more to discover, but can't get hold of it. I'm always happy with the great support you guys have shown, and will always try my best to search for new stuff. But we need a bit of light at the end of tunnel to keep the interest in the Zodiac case, and that goes for us all.
Thanks again Shawn.

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 02:32:25 pm

Don't be so harsh on yourself Richard, Your creating this site and the articles u write is clearly what you are exceptionally talented at and the proof is in the pudding, or site hits and people posting feedback on your articles.

Different strokes for different folks as they say. I have been told researching (Specificly Lawrence Kane) is something I have done well. However, u will never see any cryptography site or Cipher Code expert endorsing my cracking of the Z340 because I am absolutely useless at Cryptography, and that's basic codes and ciphers! I Advanced Ciphers, Substitution Ciphers, Homophones Sub. Ciphers etc is alien speak to me.

I just think you, like me, can be your own worst critic. I just think your being too harsh on yourself mate if you essentially saying that unless you find some big breakthrough or new never before seen document you feel you are not contributing to advancement of this case being solved. That is rubbish mate, for one u have given me a place to release several exclusives in terms of docs which would not have reached half the numbers of readers it now has without your site giving me r that platform.

You've created one of the best Z themed sites I personally know of. Many, if not almost all other Z sites, are ran or owned by individuals who have a personal favourite suspect and therefore a personal agenda. You Richie

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 02:39:26 pm

You don't have Bias for or against any of the several suspects in particular.

"And the winner of the 2018 Nobel Prize for Impartiality goes to...."

Like I have always said, Your only negative aspect Richard is: Being English!

:-)

Richard
3/27/2018 02:43:55 pm

Cheers Alex and thanks for your great support down the years. By the way, have you got a new address for FOIA contact for the FBI. The old address is defunct.

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 03:00:02 pm

No I haven't really gave the FOIA much thought since getting the Xen Anthony release, probably because this is what I wanted & tried to get released for a good 24-36 months of trying with three FOIAs filed.

You have the new address to submit them? Do paste or email it over please mate, I am sure Mr Davie P. Sobonya will love to see submittions start up again from 'WelshChappie' so much so I will be added to the US FOIA exemptions list along with National Security and Personal Privacy. Hehe

Richard
3/27/2018 03:09:03 pm

Since Trump took office, nothing is available. I cannot find the new address, if it exists at all Alex.

Alex Lewis
3/28/2018 08:03:19 am

Its President Trump Richard! Trump ran for President and declared several times....

"Elect Me President, You'll find out who knocked down those Towers!" Referring to the Twin Towers collapse on 9/11.

Still waiting for something, even a mention by him, as President Elect.

In all fairness though he is busy over ruling a previous executive order that states all files that are being witheld from the public in relation to the John Kennedy assassination must be released and declassified in year 2017.

Many were yes, except obviously, the more than One. Hundred Thousand files that Trump has decided to hold back!

Alex Lewis
3/28/2018 08:12:56 am

I hear the Name Trump and left swear to this being true, am not able to see anything else other than SNL & Alec Baldwin as President Trump! I Absolutely Hilarious! Made even more amusing that Trump has tried to Ban Baldwin portraying Him!

Presidental Executive Order No. 001: The Anti-Baldwin Brother Conspiracy of Alec Act .. "

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 07:47:39 pm

Shawn, are you somewhat New to this Z case? I make this assumption because if you spend a lot of energy over a several year period exceeding a decade trying to unravel this case full of knots, you'd have no need to ask why Rich gets or seems to be at present, frustrated.

Zodiac was, by the time I was born, long inactive in terms of physically blasting people away, and had long before 1982,He had fallen silent. Yet, Belie e yoilu me, I feel I know this individual like A close friend of the family who's name you just cannot remember nor does all other families ly and friends you ask, even though all know who you are mean too.

This friend even finds your frustration highly funny now and decides time to send you a greeting card to tell you he is highly amused. "Dear Frustrated Friend: I Feel it in My Bones you forget my name again so please open.....

"Booba-De-Bohoooo! MY NAME IS. .

...Me, A Name, I call Myself, far, a long long way to run....."

Give it Six Monthsnths Shawn and You too will wish Z was alive and well just so the chance to tell him what an absolutely frustratingly annoying He is, yet He is to myself, the proverbial Flame with Myself a hapless Moth! I know I will end up being burned like hell but I can't help myself as I fly straight into Z Flame.... Again & again!

If this was a boxing match, the ref would have stepped in to stop this and bout long long ago.

Ray Jenkins
3/28/2018 04:24:06 am

So you've been doing this Zodiac stuff for so long that you have become an expert at being disillusioned by the case. And now all you have left to offer anyone is the ability to ridicule everybody else from your own little peanut gallery?

Alex Lewis
3/28/2018 08:16:26 am

https://youtu.be/dLYfwprjtog

I rest my case! Lol.

Ray Jenkins
3/28/2018 04:12:57 pm

So, Mr. tauntingly tit-willowish troll, if this whole Zodiac thing is a complete joke - in effect as big a joke as Donald Trump - then what is the point of your trolling? Oh I know, to tell us all you think the whole Zodiac thing is a complete joke and to throw peanuts at us for being so stupid. And of course you are only telling us this because if the Zodiac was still alive today he would be laughing at us too. Well tell us something we don't know! You've made your point, now go away and stop annoying those who believe murder is a serious issue.

Alex Lewis
3/30/2018 10:56:09 am

Ray, who said murder was a a joke? And I hope you are not telling me to go away, I don't do requests I'm afraid.

Tom Void created a thread topic referred to me as 'WelshChappie, A Troll...'

Richard spent weeks trying to convince me sucide was not the only response I had left.

Ray Jenkins
3/30/2018 04:45:41 pm

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but on occasions I really wonder where you are coming from. Trying to distract from a topic by "look at me" tomfoolery is often seen (or mistaken?) as trollish behavior by some. Apologies if this is not the case.

Alex Lewis
4/4/2018 05:53:14 pm

Ray, before you insinuate that the majority of My postings are simply 'Trolling' for some sort of need to garner attention and question my motives and whether I am even serious, please show what you have contributed to this caae here. How many redacted Named suspects in official Documents have you got released after 24 - 36 months and three Freedom of Information requests of trying have you persisted in filing before finally getting tlwhat you asked for, then publicly releasing it on Zodiac websites?
How many full arrest records and associated FBI Files have you secured finding that suspect true legal name in doing so?
Tell Me Ray, for someome as troll like as Me who is simply attention seeking, should I be the type to be consultant for and with the History Channel and their series on this case? Why would the series producer, Bethany, Email me a dozen or so times and then call Me to get my opinions and thoughts on a suspect called Kane? Bethany is obviously an idiot, we must assume, surely?

My Name and reputation speaks for itself and goes before Me in the amateur community Ray, if you mistake my having a sense of humor as 'tomfoolery' in certain posts then your engaging in art of cherry picking the poats and threads where I am consciously and deliberately using sarcastic humorous undertones and willfully ignoring those posts or threads (the several hundred that there are) of which I am totally serious.

As I said, i shall respect your opinion if and when you show Me your Contributions to this case other than offering me and others your opinion on a person/persons postings.

Alex Lewis
4/4/2018 05:58:14 pm

And eh, how do you say...

Oh yes....

'Stick that in your opinion pipe and smoke it!'

Alex Lewis
4/4/2018 06:06:24 pm

In other words Ray, if all you have to offer is opinions on Myself and what I may have to say by shouting words like troll around, then I think it is you yourself that is looking for attention by trolling Me here on this thread. If you want to get into it and debate Me and My contributions to this case then bring it on my friend, I am up for that anyday!

Don't try to run before you can walk Ray, you may find you'll easily fall over.

Ray Jenkins
4/4/2018 11:19:54 pm

Wow, another Mr Touchy Feely. "Ouchy, that other kid he hurt my feelings, so I am going to retaliate by calling him names". Boohoo!

I was only talking about that one day when you were writing comments all over the place like a crazy person on drugs or drunk. You probably do not even recall writing them.

You know? "Tit Willow, tit willow" and crap.
"Booba-De-Bohoooo! MY NAME IS.
Me, A Name, I call Myself, far, a long long way to run
And blaming it all on Trump. Well he is an easy, big, fat target I suppose.
Calling Tom "Tom Voigt", when he most likely isn't.
And other crap like:
"PSSST! Over here...
"The Key to My little locked Coded message is over there... Yes, thats the one! Somewhere in that 750.000 Acre Haystack is.... A Key! One that is Approx. 18 - 20mm in Size. Good luck and your time (to waste) starts..... NOW!"
'A Driver had called in sick so Stine came to work that night and filled in....'
"Phil Who...?"

And then you rest your case because Trump is a buffoon???

And you say I am not contributing anything of value and acting like a troll.

ROFL!

Judith
3/18/2018 10:40:08 am

Who elected the anagramming police? This is the reason you will never solve the 340.

Ray Jenkins
3/27/2018 02:44:52 pm

I agree Judith. Once people start making up anagrams so that the 340 cipher will "work out" according to their own conceptions of what they think the cipher must read like, this tends to suggest they ran out of ideas at some point and then started making things up to suit themselves. The solution will appear forced also ultimately reflect much more about the "solvers" personality, education, social upbringing and mindset than the original author of the cipher. And nobody, including yours truly, will ever "buy it".

There have been a lot of "salesman" (more accurately carpet-baggers) when it comes to "solutions" to the 340.

I always find one thing in common with these so-called "solutions". The less plausible the solution is, the more long-winded and convoluted is the explanation. If the solution requires an elaborate explanation, it is most likely not a valid solution.

If it needs to be explained in detail in order to make sense, well that comes back to the solver having made up an explanation, which in turn means the cipher solution has essentially been made up by the solver.

It is interesting that anagrammers will often only accept their own peculiar anagrams. They will reject out of hand any anagrams proposed by others, or, if not reject, than claim their own solution is the superior one.

For anyone attempting to solve the 340 cipher as it has been written, left to right, letter by letter, line by line, they should first be aware that this cipher is plagued by the problem of extreme variability. So adding highly variable elements like anagrams to the 340 is a joke, because all they are doing is increasing the level of variability. And by so doing, they are in essence negating the plausibility of their own solution.

I always laugh whenever people claim they "knew what the Zodiac was thinking" and that is how they "solved" the 340 cipher. For all we know, the Zodiac never used anagrams, and even if he did, how do we know if the anagrams are the same as found in the various "carpet-bagger" solutions, or entirely different? Simple answer is, we cannot.

Similarly I once got a laugh when a science student who had been studying the behavior of grasshoppers, claimed in an assignment that rather than be able to predict the grasshopper's movements based on previous behavior, he had come to know what was on his grasshopper's mind. LOL! It is a common malady suffered perhaps by those who have studied a particular subject too closely and for too long. They begin to believe the unbelievable, for example, the belief that one has "got inside" the mind of the Zodiac. Even Spock would have been impressed with this level of "mind melding".

Live long and prosper!

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 02:48:36 pm

I have never tried solving it, so I won't fail to solve it Judith because I will not both there to try.

The 408.....what a wealth of useful info that was! A breakage without which We would still not know of his babbling rant of killing because it is soooooooo much fun! Name? And No! Go away, declares the Astrological one as He fears Giving his name to Law Enforcement may interfere with his plan to stay out of prison to continue His favourite hobby... slave collecting!

Howard Miller
4/5/2018 12:36:59 am

To paraphrase John Cleese on Fawlty Towers: "It's hopeless! Absolutely hopeless!"

But reading below, I see there is hope! Rubislaw, by his own admission, says he has ("mostly") solved "most" of the Zodiac's cryptograms. This should be world breaking news but sadly is largely unknown outside the hallowed grounds of Scotland Yard. Modern cryptologists are wasting their time apparently. There are no "ifs" or "buts". He has solved them ("mostly") 100%, and that is the "mostly" God honest truth of Rubislaw. I note that nobody is applauding but he seems to be happy and he always likes to share his toys. If we can make one person happy playing with Zodiac stuff, then there is always hope, I feel. Monty Python perhaps sang it best: "Always look on the bright side of life, da-da... da-da-da-da-da-da". Cheers!

Rubislaw 32 link
3/18/2018 12:58:04 pm

Not to despair,Judith.

Your question has an easy answer.

It's the computer scientists,that are largely holed up,at a particular Zodiac site,full of their empty self importance...and still believing [....we presume...] that they hold the answers to Zodiac's cryptograms.

By the very nature of the tools,that they employ,they seem to think that Zodiac was some sort of perfect cipher making machine,and only they are equipped to reveal his encryption secrets.

They won't be told different,and invest further wasted time,on enhancing the size of their foolishness,in the future.

They are wholly unsuited and unqualified for the task....which I maintain,is largely accomplished,anyway.

Richard
3/18/2018 01:44:38 pm

To whom it may concern. I have discovered something new today. Here is one of the older widely viewed Zodiac documentaries presented incorrectly. At 6m 29s into this video it passes off an envelope as one of the three July 31st 1969 envelopes to the San Francisco Chronicle, detailing the first two attacks. Neither is the second image of another full envelope image. The first envelope image is that of the April 20th 1970 '13 Symbol' cipher envelope with a cut section of stamp. This tells us that this communication was also tested for DNA as well as the three July 31st letters and Dripping Pen card. https://youtu.be/7K3WsW5jw2g?t=6m29s

Drew
3/18/2018 03:49:17 pm

That's interesting and good to know. Thanks

Richard
3/18/2018 02:36:56 pm

In the October 1st 1969 San Francisco Chronicle the police stated "There were a couple of other things we're still holding back so we'll be able to identify the man if he wants to call us again." This may be the "by knife"-defined as a couple of things. But I wondered whether they were withholding something else drawn on the car door, possibly a knife drawn on the left side of the text, underneath the door handle. In this video they appear to be pixellating out the left side. https://youtu.be/7K3WsW5jw2g?t=11m50s
And when we view the 2007 documentary this area again is not visible .https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=1h11m12s.
This image shows something fairly dark underneath the handle
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/3502859_orig.jpg but in the images of the car door front on it appears almost bleached out http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/5730567_orig.jpg
Is this blood dripping from the car door handle, indicating that Zodiac may have took the keys and opened the car door. Is it a black pen drawing of a knife, just like the Fairfield letter image, and the second thing police were holding back, or is my imagination running wild.

Drew
3/18/2018 04:12:27 pm

If there was blood on the door then the manner of its transference from gloves or a barehand would hopefully be apparent. If they wanted to keep it quiet that they had obtained a print in blood I doubt that they would allow the release of even a doctored photo, so if there was blood on the door that would suggest to me that it was transferred from gloved hands and that they would know Zodiac was wearing gloves and that any prints on the door were not his. That said the promise of 38 victims link between the unpublished Fairfield letter and the Exorcist letter's claim of 37 + will do something nasty if ignored will keep me scratching my head.

In regards to unreleased Lake Berryessa evidence, Tom Voigt commented recently that he saw in evidence reports of Cecelia Shepard's description of her attacker before donning the hood given to an E.M.T., as well as the report that Collins filed about his conversation with her and had evidently forgotten about when he was interviewed in 2007.

Richard
3/18/2018 04:32:15 pm

She certainly saw the man without the hood, so it a shame this hasn't been elaborated upon. I have magnified and cleaned up the image. It looks like a heart shape, but likely probably nothing.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/sacramento-88_orig.jpg

John
3/19/2018 04:12:33 pm

I've always wondered about that as well, Richard. There is something there, but I have never figured out if its blood or something else. Another interesting thing about the Karmann Ghia is that the emblem on the lower front left quarter panel is missing. Did the Zodiac take it or was it missing from before?

Richard
3/19/2018 04:57:13 pm

I hadn't noticed John, so I couldn't answer that one. Hopefully somebody else can provide an answer. As for the markings below the door handle, there is certainly something there John, but like you, I can't fathom what it is. It looks like a poorly drawn heart. If it isn't the second thing the police held back, is it the emblem, or were the police just being cryptic themselves, insinuating a "couple of things", when all they meant was "by knife" after all.

John
3/20/2018 05:35:13 am

It's frustrating, Richard. Investigators certainly have more information but they refuse to share it with the public. I wonder if their prime suspect is still alive, which could be the reason why they are reluctant to share information. Anyhow, back to the Karmann Ghia. I am very familiar with these cars, and the emblem is definitely missing. If you look at the photograph of the police man and the detective standing over the car, look next to the left wheel and between the door, you will see a spot where the metal looks "punched in." That is where the emblem should be. I doubt it was missing for before...and the only reason I say this is because those cars were quite pricey for their time, and people who bought them took car of them.

Richard
3/20/2018 05:50:55 am

What about this one John?
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/hut_orig.gif

John
3/20/2018 06:15:09 am

Richard, the car in the movie is more than likely a replica car, which are still being built today. Replica Ghia's sometimes omit the emblem. I have even seen original restored Ghia's where the owner has decided to go with a "smooth body" finish, thus getting rid of the emblem. They don't like that "punched in" look. These are personal tastes. When it comes to cars, you have to back to the original literature in order to see how the car originally came off the assembly line.

Richard
3/20/2018 06:32:03 am

That car you see- I created the writing on it. It wasn't the movie car. But I take your point on the emblem.

Ray Jenkins
3/18/2018 03:49:27 pm

The Zodiac never left any clues to his identity in his ciphers.... piffle. Only the Zodiac would know if he did or didn't. Nobody else could know if he did or didn't.

Richard, is that a period cover of the book, or a modern re-print cover? The thing that interests me is the distinctive diamond shape in the bottom right, and to what letter(s) is the point of the diamond resting on?

Richard
3/18/2018 03:55:45 pm

It's the theatrical release poster for The Most Dangerous Game (1932).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Dangerous_Game

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Most_Dangerous_Game_poster.jpg

Ray Jenkins
3/18/2018 07:07:30 pm

Very interesting! It's the RKO Radio logo with lightning strike inside a diamond shape. I've just had one of those light bulb moments.

Ray Jenkins
3/20/2018 05:57:14 am

In my opinion, if the Zodiac did leave his identity in a cipher. he would have almost certainly obscured it in such a way that it would be "hidden in plain sight". Take for example the second last symbol on the last line. Perhaps this could be a combined set of initials known as a monogram. Take note of the way the plus sign has been drawn at the end. The horizontal line has been extended, as if it is pointing back towards this symbol. No other plus sign appears like this in the rest of the cipher. The potential monogram also somewhat fittingly is the symbol immediately following the word-like "ZODAIK".

Richard
3/20/2018 06:24:39 am

I think these last 8 characters are totally relevant toward his identity (then again I would wouldn't I). I cannot believe ZODAIK fell out by sheer accident. This was by design. Indicating that this final line is key to the entire cipher. The I looking symbol with the dot to the left, could be a pointer or switch mechanism within the cipher. This is a rather elaborate character to create (one with a dot to the left, one to the right). If these represented individual and separate letters, then why not just create two separate far simpler characters, than making a T that joined a curved up line- like the base of an anchor, and a dot. The fact he made the bottom line so specific, rather than drawing a capital I, seems to imply an importance to its design. For example; a joined Aries and T, or Anchor and T. He didn't really need the dot, he could have just dropped the T in one of the two designs. This symbol with dot to left and right could be a trigger that shifts the cipher, like his directional V symbols. Unearthing the reason he chose such unnecessary symbols, may unearth the mechanics of the cipher. He found it extremely important enough to scrub out a forward K on the sixth line, to replace it with a backwards K. If he had made an error in text-so what- it never bothered him in the 408 cipher and letters when he made spelling errors.

Ray Jenkins
3/21/2018 02:43:01 am

The thing about anchors is they sink. The thing about dots is they connect.

"Connecting the dots"...

In The Exorcist letter we find:

"He plunged himself into the billowy wave and an echo arose from the suicide's grave. titwillo titwillo titwillo."

Ray Jenkins
3/21/2018 04:28:09 am

More possible anchor connections?

From The Mikado. "And if you call for a song of the sea, we'll heave the capstan round, with a yeo heave ho, for the wind is free, her anchor's a-trip, and her helm's a-lee, hurrah for the homeward bound! chor: Yeo-ho----heave-ho, hurrah for the homeward bound! To lay aloft in a howling breeze may tickle a landsman's taste, but the happiest..."

An interesting WW2 "Tit Willow" reference associated with the Australian Air Force and the Commander of the Pacific Fleed and future "Mikado of Japan", General Douglas MacArthur.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=7bSQAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=anchor+tit+willow&source=bl&ots=JC0q-U4tDp&sig=7DXGg9zZBD6va34oO2d5kXfEyMw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuoqLYpP3ZAhUCvbwKHZ4IDSMQ6AEITDAI#v=onepage&q=anchor%20tit%20willow&f=false

Connected dots or just weird Zynchronicities?

Ray Jenkins
3/21/2018 04:30:13 am

Typo above: fleed should read fleet.

Tom
3/22/2018 07:39:41 pm

What if it is not a cipher at all, but some kind of word puzzle? Another possibility is proposed by Randall Clemons. His overlay theory is very interesting. I don't have the brain cells left to figure any of this out, but am reading everything I can find.

Alex Lewis
3/27/2018 08:21:58 pm

... "What if it is not a cipher at all, but some kind of word puzzle?"

What, you mean a Word Puzzle like......

A Cipher?

Puzzle! One of Words, words obscured behind many different representations of Symbols, Shapes, Letters and Signs.

"PSSST! Over here...

"The Key to My little locked Coded message is over there... Yes, thats the one! Somewhere in that 750.000 Acre Haystack is.... A Key! One that is Approx. 18 - 20mm in Size. Good luck and your time (to waste) starts..... NOW!"

'A Driver had called in sick so Stine came to work that night and filled in....'

"Phil Who...?"

Judith
3/20/2018 01:36:40 pm

It seems he has a huge ego, that he needs to be known, hence the sending in of all the letters to the newspapers. He sees himself as a celebrity. He's begging to be caught, he's begging for help, all the while abusing us. My sense is his name and identity is laced throughout all the letters.

Ray Jenkins
3/22/2018 04:01:30 pm

I think you are spot on in your estimation, but that is just my opinion.

Carl Karas link
3/21/2018 08:37:05 pm

Richard I have finally accepted that there is a strong religious element to the crimes. I see now your theories about the triple 8's, if as you say, that is what they are, are based on a rigorous examination of all the Z communications. I had always been a few steps behind you, at the very least. But those three 8s may be the best lead we'll ever get. Anyway it inspired me to start examining the religious significance head on. Here is an excerpt of a blog piece I've just begun. I include it in hopes it may open up some new paths for all who still 'ache to know'.

"Back to the start then. If not fon nor Kane then we’ve got to go back to the first confirmed letters of Zodiac in Riverside/LA. Keeping an eye still on Xenophon- recall he was also in the LA area at the time of Cheri Jo Bates murder in Riverside on October 30th, 1966. Cheri Jo attended church that morning at St. Catherine’s. This church was named for an early Christian Saint who was martyred by torture on the wheel, which meant having bones broken. She refused to succumb and so was beheaded, supposedly. Already there seem to be parallels to the crime. Catherine is often depicted holding her wheel, as above, or seated beside it, as in the most famous image of her"

I think if you visit the piece on my blog at Zodiac fon Kane you'll be interested in the accompanying images. Cheers!

Richard
3/22/2018 01:56:27 am

Believe it or not Carl, I took a look at 'Saint Catherine of the Wheel' when looking for accompanying material on the Donna Lass card with "St Donna and Guardian of the Pines". If Cheri Jo Bates was a Zodiac crime, then clearly travelling back and looking for the embryonic machinations of the Zodiac Killer and what may have inspired his future choice of crosshairs and the driving force behind him is key. Whether connections like this exist are obviously speculative, as I pondered with the Google map image of crosshairs over the Riverside town of Corona. But I do believe the Zodiac was driven by religion- although I wouldn't state it as fact. His choice of the Zodiac 'Celtic Cross', his references to paradise, slaves, and the afterlife, and the name Zodiac based on the horoscope is either an image he was selling, or it was a truly held belief. Religion and astrology/looking to the heavens, has always been bound to the religious. The choice of three 8's (representing Jesus Christ) and the fact they are circled (representing the moon), or whether you believe they are Taurus symbols (or both), all have connections to religious/ astrological leanings of yesteryear.
Thanks for sharing your findings regarding Cheri Jo Bates, who, if a Zodiac crime, may provide us with the early thinking of a killer in development. I think the '13 Symbol' cipher is the key, because not only does it contain the possible number 888, but 444 using the code key based on the '13 Symbol' cipher. The cipher itself shows it is symmetrically created in terms of the positioning of the alphabetical characters, the three 8's and the two remaining symbols. Placing the alphabet alongside it produces perfect symmetry, as does placing Zodiac alongside the 'near Zodiac' on the final line of the 340, not withstanding it produces three 0's and three 8's, to carry forward onto the next cipher. One coincidence I can buy, but 3 or 4 makes me wonder. However, I will never claim this as the definitive answer, as I understand how it is easy to become biased to ones own views. Sometimes you have to be a little more objective.
Keep plugging away Carl-we will only get there if we work together and looking for the early trigger for the religious angle is a worthy one, especially when we consider the killer (or Zodiac) of Cheri Jo Bates likely knew her, and may possibly have been a member of the church Cheri Jo Bates attended. If he wasn't a student at Riverside College, he certainly latched on to her somehow.
I certainly understand when others dismiss the religious angle, but from my perspective, and likely yours, we must pursue what we believe until proven otherwise. What I have been trying to unlock for three years is the letters KM sandwiched between the three 8's-do they carry greater significance. It's all very well creating a symmetrical pattern of numbers when placing the first half of the alphabet alongside the '13 Symbol' cipher, but then we are left in the identical situation as before- searching for a meaning for the numbers that arise-unless it was simply a mathematical game.
I'll put your link here Carl.
https://zodiacfonkane.wordpress.com/2018/03/21/saint-catherines-wheel/

Richard
3/22/2018 02:10:26 am

Although I don't buy the whole gematric numbers game of Marty Leeds, nevertheless I watched all his videos, and is where I got the inspiration for the Zodiac code and the '13 Symbol' cipher three 8's idea. You may find many fresh ideas here Carl, especially concerning religious symbolism.
https://www.youtube.com/user/martyleeds33/videos

Ray Jenkins
3/22/2018 03:57:44 pm

The Zodiac often comes across as a weird kind of Ted Kaczynski / Dennis Rader hybrid. We see the constant urge to justify his murders as "deeds" in the terms of some greater, cosmic, mathematically and/or religiously logical way. In other words to make the immoral seem rational and universal, and therefore valid in the scheme of all things according to them. For Rader it was a religious determination that all sin and must therefore be prepared to suffer, because the inability to accept suffering from a Divine hand was the greater evil. For Kaczynski, murder became a necessary evil for the greater good, being, in his mind, the natural environment. In both cases human life was seen as expendable for some greater cause. And in both cases, the belief tends to neglect the fact that both "got their rocks off" while planning and committing their atrocities on other humans. And these humans were innocent and most likely did not share their warped views on "universal justice". They were unwilling victims satisfying the dark desires of warped minds.

But perhaps the Zodiac was more pseudo-quasi-mathemetician than Kackzynsi, and more pseudo-quasi-religious than Rader.

A little more cryptic but no less criminally insane than either.

Shawn
3/23/2018 07:12:24 am

Hi Richard,

I think Darlene's Phone book might be worth a study and possibly an article. (If you have not already done so)

I notice in names under Z. The page starts off with "Z Doctor" above everything else. (not listed on the lines)

Further down the page a "John Zeltin" a minister is listed. It appears he would have been about 66 in 1969 but lived to the age of 103. (died in 2005) It appears he had an address in Vallejo.

He seem to be important to Darlene as his name is written three times, twice as Zelton and once as Zilton. There is also the weird name "Zeltra" over his name.

Zeltin is listed at 1309 Tuolumne street about a 3/4 mile (13 minute walk) from Springs and Tuolumne where Zodiac made his call after he shot Darlene and Michael.

Darlene's Phonebook..

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DeeBook18.html

Ray Jenkins
3/23/2018 03:42:50 pm

Yes, and not forgetting the obscure reference to a real estate agent in Yeppoon, Queensland, Australia.

Someone she met briefly, or was she considering a vacation to a distant shore? Yeppoon was basically a "one horse town" on the verge of a minor development boom at that time and well off any of the more traveled destinations. It would have been a place completely unknown to most Americans.

It is interesting that under the "Z Doctor" appears John Zeltin, not once but twice, and above and below this name appears another similar name, "Zeltra". The numbers 1978 repeated and 1981 crossed out also seem odd to me. That second last page is like an "alphabet soup" cipher in itself.

I am sure the detectives went through this book with a fine tooth comb back in the day and thoroughly investigated all these names?

Ray Jenkins
3/23/2018 03:58:03 pm

Actually, it looks to me as though Ferrin was confused about the spelling of the Reverend's name and was variously writing John Zeltra and Zeltra and John Zeltin. Perhaps this is what prompted her to jokingly refer to him as the "Z Doctor"?

His name was actually John Zeltin, which she did re-write correctly at some time. But she did not cross out the wrong entries, so either she still wasn't sure of the spelling or just didn't bother to cross out the wrong entries, or John Zeltra was indeed a different person. It does seem to me that she was confused about the spelling of the name, and he must have changed his address at times, hence we see hastily scrawled entries spelt either "Zeltra" or "Zeltin" scribbled about, as if she was constantly correcting herself. Maybe she enjoyed the little play on words that the cryptic surname had presented.

Rev Zeltin lived to the ripe old age of 103. His wife Eleanor also appears in one of Darlene's entries.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/timesheraldonline/obituary.aspx?n=john-zeltin&pid=14454851&fhid=3067

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DeeBook1.html

John
3/23/2018 04:24:42 pm

"Z Doctor" is very interesting, no doubt. Could she be referring to someone who was a "doctor feelgood" in the area? Anyhow, I am pretty sure the police interviewed/did background checks on most of the individuals found in her address book.

Ray Jenkins
3/23/2018 10:03:09 pm

People tend to read too much into these sorts of things. I could be wrong but I get the feeling that much of the original writing in the book is not even in Darlene's hand. I think this address book was probably given to her originally by a family member, possibly her mother, who some years beforehand had dutifully wrote out all of the addresses of close family friends and relatives, and other "important contacts" such as the good reverend of the local church. My personal feeling is she was just confused about the spelling of his name at some point and having a bit of fun playing around with different semantic iterations. The name Zeltra may have meant something to her.

She possibly did write the "Z Doctor" as a reference to the movie title "Doctor Z". For most young people church tended to be a chore more than something to look forward to. Also, ministers can indeed seem "diabolically boring" to the young, because the time spent in church is time they could be spending outdoors having fun.

I can well imagine a scenario in which the reverend gave a sermon about going to a doctor whenever we are feeling unwell physically. In like manner, if you are feeling unwell spiritually then you go to church. So he may have presented this idea about being like a doctor, healing the spiritually ill, for example. If she wrote this as a reference to the Doctor Z movie, I guess this just shows she had a witty sense of humor.

Ray Jenkins
3/23/2018 10:05:02 pm

edit: My personal feeling is she [her daughter, Darlene] was just confused about the spelling of his name at some point and having a bit of fun playing around with different semantic iterations. The name Zeltra may have meant something to her.

John
3/22/2018 05:01:44 pm

Hello Carl,

Here is the reproduction of the envelope the Halloween card was sent in. This was a promotional item created for Fincher's "Zodiac" film. The film claims it is an exact reproduction.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/images/hce.jpg

Notice the stamp: It writes: "In the beginning God..."

Another clue? He could have chosen a plethora of others stamps, but did not.

Ray Jenkins
3/22/2018 09:16:46 pm

That stamp is placed very neatly on the envelope, as if it is an integral part of the overall "composition". This stamp is what has lead me to wonder if the Zodiac could have been ex-Navy, however the Flying V is rather more similar to an aerial plan of an air force base. The stamp depicts the Apollo 8 mission. The USS Yorktown lead the recovery mission for that module.

https://www.space.com/20842-apollo-8-recovery.html

https://history.nasa.gov/printFriendly/ships.html

Judith
3/23/2018 06:55:09 am

How about a 20 year old schizophrenic who frequently does drugs like LSD? Put that in your mathematical salad spinner.

Ray Jenkins
3/23/2018 04:13:56 pm

You have to consider how well a person functions under these kinds of extreme circumstances. I do wonder how a schizophrenic on LSD would be capable of doing anything much at all. Having observed people suffering from severe schizophrenia and having seen the effects of drugs like LSD on people, it seems unlikely that such a person could have been the Zodiac. This was someone who could drive a car long distances, plan things, load a gun and fire it, write about his crimes in some detail later, and draw up detailed and meticulous ciphers neatly. If someone was adversely effected by both schizophrenia and LSD, even tying shoelaces would be a difficult exercise to perform. If we compare someone like Charles Manson with the Zodiac, sure there are similarities, but also they are poles apart in terms of how they functioned and behaved.

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 05:21:22 am

Yes, I may have been a bit hasty. The Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, was diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia after he was caught. But to all who knew him, and to the police, whenever they had interviewed him, he had always seemed quite normal.

Carl Karas link
3/23/2018 04:56:24 pm

Thanks for the mention Richard. I'll check out your recommendations and the Donna Lass article. The envelope is intriguing. My grandfather in Canada was a super stamp collector. While working in the grain trade he received letters from all over the world and eventually ended up with one of the best stamp collections of Commonwealth stamps in the world. I realize only now how lucky I was to be shown his albums every few weeks. So I do think the choice of the space stamp is significant.

A little astrology for you, in the US the sign of Sagittarius is on the Midheaven starting in San Francisco which sits on the line between Scorpio and Sag. At the Mississippi it changes again to Capricorn. You can understand quite a bit about our country by looking at it from the point of view of, and the tension between these two signs. Hollywood in the West, Wall Street in the East for example. Anyway Sagittarius is ruled by Jupiter, planet of law, religious belief, travel and expansion in general. At Houston near 27 degrees Sagittarius we had the space program. 27 degrees sag is also the current alignment to the galactic center, btw. After about 23 degrees of any sign there is a tendency to go out of bounds. From Houston we expanded right off the planet! The 'Bible Belt' is also in later degrees.

The influence of LDS, Scientology, SDA (Cecelia Shepard) is strong all across the West. The Mormons are the only US religious group that believes in a form of slavery in the afterlife. There is a Mormon or LDS church near Riverside CC, a 15 minute walk from Teracina Dr. I want to look further into the connection.

Yes let's work together. Good group here. I have been slammed or ignored everywhere else so the suggestion is much appreciated. Cheers all and thanks for a great thread

Shawn
3/23/2018 06:52:54 pm

I find that "John Zeltin" passing away at 103 is interesting. Could he looked young back in 1969 at 66.......Maybe passing for 45.....Foukes upper range for Zodiac's age?

Who would suspect a Minister as being Zodiac? BTK was elected president of his church council.

I also found an interesting movie called "The Diabolical Doctor Z" that was shown in the Bay Area in the summer of 1968.

"Irma Zimmer, a surgeon who creates a machine that turns people into zombified slaves."

Wiki and Movie Trailer below...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diabolical_Dr._Z

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMlPZZXdGsM




Judith
3/23/2018 11:43:55 pm

The Z doctor was a local car repair shop

Ray Jenkins
3/24/2018 02:36:28 am

Thanks for the "heads up" on this Judith. As the old saying goes, the answer when found will be simple.

Shawn
3/24/2018 06:49:46 am

Judith,

It appears you are correct about the "Z Doctor" being a car repair shop. Great research!.

It appears Darlene has "Z Doctor" 100-23rd Street Richmond written down.

The following link gives the same address for the "Z Doctor" 100 23rd St Richmond, CA 94804 auto repair. (which is closed now)

I would have to imagine that is the same car repair shop that was
open in 1969.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/z-doctor-richmond

Amazing all the coincidences one can find.

Drew
3/24/2018 10:10:44 am

Regarding Darlene's phonebook, it originally belonged to her newspaper reporter ex-husband (from 1966) Jim Phillips, who changed his name to Crabtree after police finally tracked him down at a Santa Cruz commune for questioning in 1970. I believe he was wanted on fraud charges at this time. At any rate I believe the principal writing in the book is Darlene's and Jim's and the additional notes would be from her widower Dean and/or other members of the family tracking down people to notify.

BB
3/24/2018 05:02:13 pm

https://www.google.com/search?q=james+phillips+crabtree&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=OiQ-SQIarH6rCM%253A%252CMHJr0BG53byWpM%252C_&usg=__JeH20lzp3RX0_aUN47TlMcjUmqI%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip6qXgk4baAhUQ72MKHQJiCZwQ9QEIUTAJ#imgrc=OiQ-SQIarH6rCM:

Drew - Is this Crabtree?

Drew
3/24/2018 05:19:38 pm

Yes. The "unknown man" in the photo with Darlene Ferrin is almost undoubtably Jim Phillips who was married to her throughout 1966. Crabtree I believe was Jim's given name but he was raised with the Phillips and took their name until his adoptive father's death. That is my understanding of the name change.

Judith
3/24/2018 10:26:34 am

No research I lived in Contra Costa County for 25 years I lived with my suspect in Pinole California for over 20 years I sold real estate all through Richmond

Shawn
3/24/2018 11:07:09 am

Hi Judith,

It is great to have people in here who live in and know the bay area. You know the area very well having sold real estate.

I find it interesting that whoever wrote "Z Doctor" auto repair in the phonebook would choose this repair shop.

It is in Richmond and is out of the way if you are traveling to San Francisco. Unless you are heading to San Quentin.

There were probably tons of repair shops in Vallejo and San Francisco. Why the "Z Doctor"? A good reputation?

Fascination with the letter "Z"?

Judith, maybe you should build a small website so people can quickly gain information on your suspect.

Judith
3/24/2018 10:31:10 am

By the way, thank you for all the allowance of my biased comments. I know you guys prefer objective/subjective insight. Having said that, just because someone has schizophrenia does not mean they're not functional. There are varying degrees of mental illness. There are very functional mentally ill people out there. Unfortunately some of them are serial killers. Some are entertainers. Apparently some become politicians.

Drew
3/24/2018 10:38:16 am

Hi Judith, I have not read many details about your suspect. Could you provide a description of Peter's physicality in 1969, in terms of height/weight/hair colour? Thanks

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 05:22:28 am

Yes, I may have been a bit hasty. The Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, was diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia after he was caught. But to all who knew him, and to the police, whenever they had interviewed him, he had always seemed quite normal.

Judith
3/24/2018 10:47:10 am

So the easiest way to get quick info on Peter Stephen Plante, my suspect, is to go to Tom Voight's site at ZodiacKiller.Com Tom for some reason has buried my thread under the very last category of General Discussion,under the very last category called ETC, go to Tit Willow The story of the Zodiac Killer, and you will see photographs of Peter and many many pages of details. Thank you.

Drew
3/24/2018 10:54:07 am

Thanks Judith. I have gleamed that he was 20 years old, 5'9" or 5'10" and about 150 pounds in 1969. That is certainly not far off from descriptions we have heard. Thanks

Judith
3/24/2018 10:54:52 am

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1478146265/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521913841&sr=1-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Tit+Willow

Drew
3/24/2018 11:00:29 am

Thanks Judith and congratulations on your achievement!

Judith
3/24/2018 11:02:37 am

The reason I called my book Tit Willow is because when I was a young wife, Peter would follow behind me through our home terrorizing me, and he would say in first a small timid voice, Tit Willow...Tit Willow... and then in a large angry voice, TIT WILLOW BITCH.

Connolly
3/24/2018 03:23:32 pm

http://santamariatimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/goleta-murders-tied-to-unknown-serial-killer/article_9c332d7e-77a3-11e0-bc2d-001cc4c002e0.html

Richard - This is a very suspicious murder of a couple. Dali day and everything. Could it link GSK to Z?

Ray Jenkins
3/24/2018 05:07:59 pm

It is nothing short of amazing that the Original Night Stalker was still alive and still killing in 1981. He must be like 96 years old today, if he is still alive.

It is interesting that the article does not mention the Zodiac killer. Clearly his DNA profile is different from both EAR and ONS. An interesting and insightful article indeed! Thanks for sharing it Connolly.

Ray Jenkins
3/24/2018 04:57:39 pm

I am sure everybody is thinking the same thing. There have been SO many sons, wives, daughters who have thought their husband/spouse/father/grandfather was the Zodiac. I have lost count. Then there are the ones who claim to have been stalked by the Zodiac for their entire lives. All are convinced, 100%. And for the most part, all have interesting stories to tell. In some cases the stories even sound convincing. But, all have failed to gain the serious attention of the authorities for more than a few days or weeks. In all cases their claims have quickly been dismissed by both the authorities and amateur sleuths, and yet the people making the allegations frequently persist in their beliefs and allegations.

How much notice did the authorities take of Peter Plante? Was he ever quietly investigated and then dismissed?

Too much time has passed and, really, anybody can accuse anybody of being the Zodiac. Just because he had aggressive or violent tendencies and sang Gilbert and Sullivan songs and sometimes visited the lake, and looked a bit like the Zodiac if you fit him up with those horn-rimmed glasses, really is not good enough.

Why do we always find that the hard proof in all these "allegation" cases is lacking? I am sorry to be the one to say this, but when someone has lived with someone else for a very long period of time, and claims to know with absolute certainty that this individual was a serial killer, one would assume that the person making the claims must be able to provide sufficient proof in the form of material evidence. One would assume that the person would have gone to some lengths to gather such material evidence in order to make the allegation stick. Otherwise it is just one person's word against a dead person's silence. The rest has to be left up to our fertile imaginations to connect secondhand circumstantial evidence and our faith in human honesty, which, to put it simply, is never good enough.

BB
3/24/2018 06:30:38 pm

On November 21st, 1969 the bodies of James Sharp, 15 and Doreen Gaul, 19 were found in an alley between Arapahoe Street and Magnolia Avenue in Los Angeles. Both had been stabbed over 50 times and beaten about the face and head. COScientology not COSatan because 11/22 would mean Dali-day. As all Zodiac kills are on. Sure enough Sharp and Gaul were members of Scientology.

Judith
3/24/2018 08:28:41 pm

So true Ray, but do keep in mind that Peter Plante is in the law enforcement suspect Matrix. In fact I spoke with the FBI on March 12th regarding our eldest son's DNA, who is currently in jail on federal charges for bank robbery.That is what will prove this for everybody's satisfaction hopefully. If there becomes a DNA match and they let the public know.

Ray Jenkins
3/24/2018 08:48:22 pm

I am glad you understand the inherent problems. Like many people, I will await the findings of the DNA test. One would think (or at least hope) that after so many years the powers-that-be will keep the public in the loop if there is a match.

The Zodiac had to have been somebody. The problem lies in finding proof beyond any doubt that any one of the many individuals that have been offered as suspects was him. There can only be one Zodiac, unless he was in cahoots with someone else, which is possible I guess, but seems unlikely.

Shawn
3/25/2018 07:33:31 am

I wanted to write the 100TH COMMENT on this article!

Judith
3/25/2018 11:27:27 am

Beyond the DNA what sort of evidence would satisfy you Ray? I was not told about Peter killing people until after his death in 2001 we had already been divorced for a couple of years by then. I did not make the Zodiac connection until finding Tom's site around 2005 that's when I read about Tit Willow and remembered what Peter would say to me and I can assure you that no young man in California in the 1980s would be singing songs from Gilbert and Sullivan. So let us look at this evidence, these crimes.Lake Herman Road. No evidence left behind if I am not mistaken. For ballistics could not be proven to any weapon having said that I did tell the police where I thought Peters weapons were who had them, who may still possess them, who picked them up from the Pinole Police Department after they were confiscated from Peter in 2008 and the police told me that "how could you prove it was Peter that shot those guns even if they did match the ballistics" and as far as I know, never made any attempt to go collect those guns and rifles. The .22 rifle that he demonstrated to me in the dark with a pin light taped to the barrel and and showed me how you shoot in the circle of light it created on the trees.

Connolly
3/29/2018 11:29:15 am

Judith
This is the way the lord arbiter Ray speaks
"I will await the findings of the DNA test."
As if he is the controller of all things Zodiac.
We've seen him lobing insults at a good many guests here
It is only a matter of looking around for yourself
you'll find whether you believe me, or not.
PS. Your suspect is compelling, and I had so many thoughts and questions but Ray is in the neighborhood always there to
repress the free flow of speech with his repressive name calling.
C - Your friend.

Ray Jenkins
3/29/2018 05:14:29 pm

Oh my, how touchy are these conspiracy theorists! Confuse them with logic and rationality instead of emotion and what do they hit back with? You guessed it, more raw emotion.

Oh my, how awful am I. Lord arbiter indeed? You have me confused with someone else, surely. LOL!

Critical observations are reserved only for those who deserve them, and they are never insults, just critical observations. This goes as much for crappy cipher "solutions" as crappy CIA conspiracy theories.

Repress free speech?? LOL! I must be working in cahoots with Trump and the CIA. Better put your tin foil hat on. You can say whatever you like. No repression of free speech here, but please don't confuse me with the CIA and Trump if I should decide to exercise my own right to free speech and disagree with you.

Repressive name calling? What names exactly?

I don't think Judith is buying what you are selling with the whole CIA conspiracy thing Connolly, but anyway. By the way, I am not preventing you from asking Judith questions. That is only in your mind. I am not as omniscient as Richard on these pages and have no control over what he decides to publish or delete. I am, like you, just another poster. If you think I am anything else than you are confused and sadly mistaken.

Connolly
3/30/2018 11:37:31 am

So now I am nuts because I simply want to discuss rather than argue.

Ray Jenkins
3/30/2018 04:40:28 pm

I never once said you were nuts and clearly you did not read what I posted above about free speech and discussion. Stop playing the victim card and trying to turn this into an issue about yourself. The simple fact is you did not like me criticizing your theory and now you are spitting the dummy at me. Get over it and move on.

Judith
3/25/2018 11:40:42 am

And funny that you should mention a side kick.If you go to where my book is for sale on Amazon you will see a very bad review from someone named Sparrow. She accuses me of being bereft of some sort of social status as to the reason for my problems and bad marriage.The funny thing is, she went to high school with Peter Plante and she married his best friend Michael Edward Luiz. And she's written a bad review about my book all the while being married to someone who is called out as Peters partner and sidekick in the book. I call him Nick in the book his name is Michael Edward Luiz and Peter is dead but Michael is very much still alive. The State of California brought charges against Michael for molesting our young daughter while she was visiting Peter during court-ordered visitations. It was eight to convict and four undecided. Michael walked. My daughter is a destroyed person. Michael then married Sparrow and they both lived on site at a nudist camp in Northern California called Harbin Hot Springs which burned to the ground a couple of years ago. So yes there are people that are still alive that knew Peter, that rolled with him during the Zodiac days. Michael was with Peter when the kids were killed in their sleeping bags up in Vancouver May of 1972.

BB
3/25/2018 01:41:29 pm

Judith - Please put us a Peter picture link here.

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 03:43:36 pm

Seeketh in Google and ye shall find.

Judith
3/25/2018 03:13:58 pm

Lots of pictures of Peter including the composite sketch comparison on zodiac killer.com under General Discussion, under the topic called ETC. go to Tit Willow the story of the Zodiac Killer, you'll see plenty of photos of Peter there. Moving on in terms of having evidence to present we then come to Blue Rock Springs once again no fingerprints no DNA but someone survives we have a physical description which fits Peter and many other men in the Bay Area at the time. We have a description of potentially the perpetrator driving a corvair, with it's very distinctive rear end. Peter owned a bronze Corvair.I do not have any photos of him with this car. He said he "had to get rid of the Corvair". At this time he is living in El Sobrante right over the carquinez bridge from Vallejo within the geographic profiling range.

Judith
3/25/2018 03:34:11 pm

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/tit-willow-the-story-of-the-zodiac-killer-t6606-s40.html

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 04:07:53 pm

I recently heard a similar convincing story about Lee Erwin Shackelford, who served aboard USS Ticonderoga as a morse code oerator during the Bay of Tonkin incident. (USS Ticonderoga just happened to be Ship No. "14", which is what pricked my interest in him, as well as his background in codes).

Seems to me there were a lot of bad men in California at the time. Any one of them could have been the Zodiac. None of them should be discounted. Any bad man living in the right place at the right time must be included as a potential suspect.

The Tit-Willow reference is intriguing. But eyewitness testimony has its problems. After so many years, LE can only take witness testimony with a grain of salt, especially if it is clear that an underlying emotional bias has been in place for many decades. Physical evidence in the form of guns or knives will have also disintegrated into rust or decayed over time, or become so badly contaminated that it would be virtually useless as a form of evidence. Still, if a knife can be found that contains even a trace of DNA from the Lake Berryessa crime scene, that would be useful evidence. It would take a very dedicated detective to recover such evidence, if it still exists. After so many years the gamble becomes very high and LE often become reluctant to pursue matters on the basis of very old witness testimony. When it comes to the Zodiac, so many detectives have ended up red faced after pursuing false leads, that they are now, understandably, very cautious.

The only test that is really still open to LE is DNA, but I have yet to be provided with a definite answer as to how complete the Zodiac's DNA profile actually is. I have heard many different stories online. I cannot be certain which story is true. I wish someone in FBI or elsewhere would tell us, Do they have good DNA or not?

If the Zodiac's DNA is only partial, or has discrepancies, then DNA could simply result in a lot of people barking up different trees, and all of them ultimately being wrong.

More embarrassment. More humiliation. More frustration. More of a media circus. This is what LE fear most about the Zodiac case, which unfortunately has a long history of "all of the above". It seems to me that LE have resolved to remain silent on the Zodiac case until such time as they have evidence that is of the "smoking gun" kind. If they only have vague ideas, hunches, and opinions, they are not sharing these with the public.

Tom
3/25/2018 05:33:31 pm

Toschi and Armstrong clearly stated that there was evidence tying a the killer to a crime and the letters. All the known Poi’s and those interviewed(2000 or so indivduals) were cleared. By the way, no one in my family is the Zodiac and that also goes for Sandy’s inumerable entaglements.

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 06:48:52 pm

I guess what most people are thinking is, well if Toschi and Armstrong solved the case way back then, and skillfully and diligently excluded 2000 or so suspects, then why are we all still here discussing the case and looking at the excluded suspects? And secondly, why are other members of LE still not convinced that it was Leigh?

I read somewhere once, but for some reason have never been able to find the entry again, that there was sufficient circumstantial evidence gathered by the early 90's to tie Leigh to the case, and LE were putting together a case with the intention of placing Leigh on trial for the murders. However Leigh promptly died in 1992, thus ending any such judicial avenue. If only he had not died, perhaps a lot more would have been revealed regarding the prosecution's case. The details of their potential case must still be filed away somewhere in a bureaucratic archive. For some reason none of the information pertaining to this potential case have ever been made public. I can only imagine that the evidence must have been pretty good, considering they could never get Leigh on the 3 crucial pieces of evidence: fingerprints, handwriting, DNA. Not one of these matched with Leigh. So were Toschi and Armstrong correct, or were they simply barking up the wrong tree too and trying to stitch up Leigh as the Zodiac? Which gets back to the reason why we are all still here having this discussion.

BB
3/25/2018 06:16:42 pm

Is that the wonderful Sandy Betts you speak of or the Sandy/James Phillips Crabtree phantom?

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 06:49:53 pm

God only knows BB, and for that matter, who cares? lol!

Tom
3/26/2018 06:00:31 am

Sandy B

Ray Jenkins
3/26/2018 04:04:32 pm

Balls of inter-tangled yarns within a plethora of convoluted machinations.

Ray Jenkins
3/25/2018 07:03:07 pm

Just been looking at the Zodiac's alleged fingerprints online. Is it just me, or do these just look like blobs of ink? I am not a professional when it comes to the science of fingerprints, but even I can tell these prints do not look very good. In this case about all LE would be able to compare are things like the general width and length of fingers and palms. If these are really the Zodiac's prints, he must have had fairly chubby hands and fingers by the looks of it.

Tom
3/26/2018 05:59:40 am

They just could never tie the evidence to a specific individual. It did confirm that one of the crimes and the letters were connected.

Ray Jenkins
3/26/2018 03:54:01 pm

Sorry to sound pedantic, but could you tell us which letters and which crime exactly? And how were they found to be connected?

BB
3/26/2018 09:21:44 am

Tom - do you happen to know which crime was connected?

Tom
3/26/2018 06:11:29 pm

Not privy to that info. Only relating what they maintained. The evidence is not in the public domain.

Judith
3/27/2018 08:42:38 pm

What about touch DNA inside of the envelopes? This would be a location where not a lot of people would have slipped their hands into, unlike handling the letters themselves. Now my suspect demonstrated to me on more than one occasion how he would mask his fingerprints by applying two coats of model airplane glue. If this is what the Zodiac did when he wrote the letters and mailed the letters there would still be touch DNA inside of the envelopes where his hands would have brushed potentially?

Ray Jenkins
3/28/2018 04:43:39 am

There must be unexplored avenues like this for relic DNA sampling. Exactly what DNA has been obtained relating to the Zodiac case is not in the public domain. Just as the only fingerprints appearing online are just blurry blobs of smeared ink and may not even be the Zodiac's prints.
Interesting that you say your suspect put airplane cement on his fingers Judith. I doubt if this was "common practice" among criminals. I always wondered it the Zodiac was serious about this, or if he applied airplane cement exactly as he described. Having used the modern equivalent "Super Glue" or "Elephant Cement" as it is sometimes also called, have at times managed to get it all over my fingers. It is difficult to remove even with nail polish remover. It forms a rough coat which would certainly obscure fingerprints. But it is also very uncomfortable and may even interfere with driving and the use of a torch and gun for example. Basically it causes you to lose the sense of touch in your finger tips. Still, if somebody trained themselves, I guess they could easily overcome such problems.

Connolly
3/28/2018 01:26:33 pm

http://thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/CIA_GreatestHits.html

Ray - Check this out and you'll get where I am coming from. The CIA is not an honorable organization.
Also, check out Operation ARTICHOKE it's one of many well proven iterations. As well as "CIA Greatest Hits" demonstrates their complicit and direct involvement in murder after murder after murder for the benefit of the banksters and their rich friends. Their are many black operations like ARTICHOKE that involve the brain washing of innocent low level military men just like in "Twinkle Twinkle Killer Kane", which is a clear allusion to these programs. But Camp King is where they were caught torturing military men back in the 50's. When Frank Olsen tried to say something they threw him out a window to his death. Franks son Eric later won a wrongful death suit against the government. And, the Olsen family was apologized to by POTUS. And, these days there are even more Top Secret Interrogation Centers in the world than back then.

Ray Jenkins
3/28/2018 04:00:42 pm

Nobody would deny that the CIA has done many dishonorable things to people.

BUT how can you prove that the CIA and the Zodiac are linked inextricably as "cause and effect"? This is the missing "Grand Canyon" in your hypothesis.

Clearly, history has shown that the majority of serial killers are lone wolves, acting alone, with serious psychological problems. They needed nobody else to program them into becoming cold-blooded killers. For this reason we find serial killers all over the world and throughout history, long before there was ever a CIA, and in countries far removed from their influence.

The argument that "He was a serial killer. Wow, he must have been programmed that way by the CIA, because there are no better explanations!!" is almost as bad as the often used religious argument "He was a serial killer. Well he must have been made that way by The Devil, because there are no better explanations!!" If you can't find any other explanation that fits, then blame it all on the CIA, because there were other times in history when they did bad things, and who cares if you can't prove it because who needs real proof when you have a fantastic story? There are no answers so we can automatically stop asking questions and presume CIA involvement. End of story, case closed. Basically, I call such arguments a "cop out". They represent a fanciful substitution in the absence of evidence and a lack of commitment to any detailed critical analysis. The logic is very a priori in nature - and therefore backwards in the correct orientation of logic. The CIA theory presumes one thing in the absence of evidence while also denying all other possibilities because of a lack of evidence. In both cases there is no evidence, so the whole argument negates itself, and as such is pointless, null and void.

Shelli
4/6/2018 11:00:10 am

Ray, logic and grand detective mentality and procedure have been worked for 50 years with what results? There is a whole lot of absence of evidence, and that in itself begs for investigations into covert topics.

Ray Jenkins
4/6/2018 04:05:31 pm

To what end?

Let the anarchy begin...

Oh well, there has got to be a few exciting mythologies that people can still pump out of the long decayed corpse of Zodiac. At least some of the more intelligent in the population will get a good laugh out of these far-fetched theories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNpmJVa10PU

Connolly
3/28/2018 04:51:02 pm

So you've been doing this Zodiac stuff for so long that you have become an expert at being disillusioned by the case. And now all you have left to offer anyone is the ability to ridicule everybody else from your own little peanut gallery?------ Practice what you preach Ray!!!

Ray Jenkins
3/29/2018 02:42:17 am

I only criticize those who rant on about conspiracy theories without providing any proof whatsoever about their alleged relationship to the Zodiac case. Such theories are a waste of time and best left for the paranoid ramblings of the "tin foil hat" brigade.

Connolly
3/31/2018 12:03:48 pm

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it."

George Orwell

Ray Jenkins
3/31/2018 04:45:52 pm

"Perhaps the truth depends on a walk around the lake." - Wallace Stevens

Ray Jenkins
3/29/2018 05:42:45 am

And no, I am far from being disillusioned and also far from being an expert.

Judith
3/28/2018 07:21:48 pm

Word Ray.

Ray Jenkins
3/29/2018 02:44:21 am

?

Ray Jenkins
3/29/2018 05:39:18 am

Oh, "Word!". Now I understand. Thanks Judith! :-)

Judith
3/29/2018 07:19:49 am

Yes indeed

John Dè voi link
12/19/2018 08:44:46 am

A pal of mine suggested, that since 'Andrew walker' Is a 6-6 letter name, If you were to use your Imagination (for once), a [6] could be represented As a [g] in leet. If you rotate and connect these g's (Also note that 6+6 Is 12, being the number of symbols in the zodiak) they form the zodiak. even if he didn't run off to sweden or god knows where And changed his last name, this Is still true

It should be obvious
12/19/2018 03:42:41 pm

He gave his initials 3 times in 2 ciphers and one pictogram, right smack bang in the middle for all to see. He could not have been more obvious about it if he had handed them his name on a silver platter.


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    The Zodiac Killer may have given us the answer almost word-for-word when he wrote PS. The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians. The code solution identified was Estimate: Four Radians and Five Inches To read more, click the image.
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