"I AM WAITING FOR A GOOD MOVIE"

8/8/2020

Nearly one month after the March 13th 1971 Los Angeles letter, a Zodiac film directed by Tom Hanson was released on April 7th 1971, followed later that year by the Don Siegel blockbuster Dirty Harry movie, based on the Zodiac Killer and released on December 23rd 1971. Despite both of these films directly and indirectly referring to the Zodiac Killer, the Bay Area murderer would remain quiet for nearly three years until the arrival of the Exorcist letter on January 29th 1974. He certainly wasn't impressed by The Exorcist (1973), describing it as "the best saterical comidy that I have ever seen". Maybe he was unimpressed by all three movies, thereby dragging himself out of retirement on April 24th 1978 and impatiently requesting: "I am waiting for a good movie about me, who will play me". But what inspired him to write the "I am back with you" letter at this particular juncture? The obvious answer may be that he had just watched or read about a serial killer and wanted a "good movie" featuring "yours truly".

The Zodiac Killer mailed a Halloween card on October 27th 1970, 'circling' his instruments of, death by knife, death by gun, death by fire and death by rope. Therefore, a film where the instruments of death are the main feature of the story, in which a masked killer is hunting women in Los Angeles, driven by a hatred of sinners and religious mania, appears like the sort of movie that Zodiac would crack out the popcorn for. The Toolbox Murders was released in El Paso, Texas on February 17th 1978, with the more general release in the USA on March 3rd 1978. This movie, however, was a little more extreme. The murders were by electric drill, by screwdriver, by hammer and by nail gun. The general release was just 52 days before the arrival of the April 24th 1978 letter, meaning the Zodiac Killer could have been sitting in a cinema near you.

These violent murders are committed in a Los Angeles apartment, where the killer is picking off the tenants one-by-one. This makes it all the more unusual that the only two known letters ever mailed from Los Angeles (in which the writer identified himself as Zodiac), were mailed immediately after the April 24th 1978 letter. On May 2nd 1978, the alleged Bay Area murderer opened with "This is the Zodiac speaking" and finished with "Hey - - - you actors - this is your lucky Break. Remember - whoever plays me has his work cut out for him". On July 19th 1978, the alleged murderer of five began with "I am the ZODIAC and I am in control of all things. I am going to tell you a secret. I like friction tape. I like to have it around in case I need to truss someone up in a hurry". The Zodiac Killer must have loved The Toolbox Murders, but acting out a fantasy in Los Angeles seems extremely far-fetched - doesn't it?

87 Comments

8/9/2020 11:11:06 am

The two people who may have been inspired by the movie are the Toolbox Killers in Southern California (Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris), who committed their crimes a little over a year after the release of the movie. They employed a similar sick MO.

The other serial killers in Southrern California during that time were the Golden State Killer (Joseph Angelo) and the Hillside Stangler(s) (Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Buono). Of course, there may have been other killings that have never been attributed to a particular serial killer, including Zodiac.

I always thought that if Zodiac were still alive when the blockbuster movie Zodiac was released in 2007, he wouldn’t have been able to avoid the temptation of making his presence known.

Richard

8/9/2020 11:57:14 am

I once touted the idea that the "yours truly" tag on the 1978 letter was triggered by the "Ripper". Rather, the Yorkshire Ripper, who was gaining worldwide attention for his murders in the north of England. This idea seemed simpler. If the communication was by Zodiac, then something must have shook him from his slumber - and Zodiac was usually inspired through the media. Yes, I read up on the Bittaker and Norris crimes. They seemed like they were influenced by The Toolbox Murders, and Zodiac possibly inspired to put pen to paper by it. It's not like there were several serial killer films made in March and April of 1978. The Zodiac was similarly inspired by the Vanishing Point film in 1971 stating "If the Blue Meannies are evere going to catch me, they had best get off their fat asses + do something". The Vanishing Point film January trailer stated "They want to get him and put him away, but there'll have to catch him first". The Vanishing Point film was released in the USA on March 13th 1971, the exact date of the Los Angeles letter.

It is extremely unlikely he was still alive in 2007, although I would have him as 78 if he was. He resisted the two films about him in 1971, but seemed prepared to mention others. You certainly couldn't accuse him of not wanting to seek attention, yet he appeared rather reticent in 1971. Who said serial killers were unpredictable.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/10/2020 12:32:11 am

Well Richard , difficult for me to let your comments go by , without not having realised before , that the '' yours truly '' tag may have been inspired , at that point , by reading about the Yorkshire Ripper , as opposed to the Whitechapel Ripper ( ? ) .

Brenda Page July 14th 1978 .

British newspapers , read by '' someone '' who , at that time , happened to be residing , mostly in Britain .

Richard

8/10/2020 01:58:25 am

Or, somebody of British heritage whose parents were british, but was born in America. Foreign newspapers transported to America. But I take your point Rubislaw.

Richard

8/10/2020 02:03:23 am

The author of the Exorcist letter spelt truly, truley. Both truley and truely are obviously incorrect, yet the 1978 author makes no such mistake. The Dear Boss letter uses the correct spelling just like the 1978 letter.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/10/2020 02:43:37 am

Taken on board , Richard . It does seem that the alphabetic letter '' e '' was the single biggest problem ( with or without ) for the Zodiac , in his spelling .

In conjectured ( granted ) correspondences , I seem to see it all the time . '' Refuseing '' a recent example , and even with one half of his riddle solve for the New Canaan Letters - '' Geni '' instead of '' Genie ''. Also '' Coffe '' instead of '' Coffee '' ( Scorpion ) . So , sometimes it may have been , simply to '' fit '' a word in - but also seems to have been his weakness , with presumably no dictionary around , at a given time .

Richard

8/11/2020 08:01:05 am

Here is a throwaway idea Rubislaw. Remember your good citizen card. ''Go to 56 Beach Street. I get the name Jerry, perhaps he knows people or his name is XXXXXXX''.

Then I discovered this: The San Francisco Chronicle article on April 20th 1970 stated that "Salem's designs have been exhibited in England, Japan and Russia under State Department cultural exchange programs. Until last year (1969) he had been the lighting designer for restoration of the historic Haslett Warehouse on Hyde Street". In fact, the address is given as 680 Beach Street at Hyde, Russian Hill, San Francisco. Zodiac wrote "his name is" on the good citizen card.

He wrote "my name is" on the April 20th 1970 letter, adding "can you figure out who I killed". The only figure associated with Salem was his home address at 745 Stevenson St.

Then came the Halloween card with the strange symbol on the return address, signifying this may be a number or street, or map. He also chose a card with the introduction of "you ache to know my name, so I'll clue you in". And added the same symbol.

Read as simply as possible we have a 7, 4 dots and an F. Could it be 745 Stevenson St. Was he playing games? Just a throwaway idea. Not to be taken too seriously, so don't expect a reply.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 12:07:01 pm

Well , you have certainly caught my interest again Richard , and I'll have a think on , about the points of observations that you make .

What tweaked my attention immediately , is the mention of Salem's designs exhibited in foreign countries , and England in particular .

The general prospect being , if the Zodiac had , by 1970 , visited Western Europe , and spotted artist's work there , first ( ? ) .

More particularly , homing in on the possible influence on the Zodiac's cipher grid systems employed , by the American conceptual artist , Carl Andre who , first came to international recognition , with exhibits at the Tate Gallery , in London , in 1966 .

Andre's '' pile of bricks '' called Equivalent VIII , caused a sensation , with often banner headlines in British tabloids , such as '' What a load of rubbish '' . It certainly didn't do Andre's reputation , any harm at all , for he was now the talk of the art world .

So , perhaps the Zodiac had started to become a regular traveller , before his Bay area reign of terror ( ? ) , and 1966 at the latest .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 12:23:38 pm

....and the possible '' third '' coming of the Zodiac , in 1978 , really does give clues , that he has arrived from a period abroad , and intends to focus his attention , once again , on California .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 03:54:17 pm

Yes , the claims made in the ESP / Good Citizen letter indicated 4 days ( ? ) before the murder of Paul Stine , so one feels that it could be a mischievous '' retrospective clue left behind , to embarrass investigating police .

In addition , as I have conjectured before , the 345 Hyde Street address of Robert H Coon , could have played a part , on the actual evening of Stine's murder , as another '' retrospective '' clue .

One has to travel a whole mile up Hyde Street , from Coon's address , to the corner where Hyde Street and Beach Street meet , in order to find The Haslett Warehouse , at 680 Beach Street .

Until 1939 , Haslett Warehouse was a canning factory for Fruit & Veg. . Then till early sixties used as a storage facility . By 1969 it was a shops & restaurants center .

It could well have been a favoured spot for the Zodiac , when visiting San Francisco ( ? ) , and felt inspired to construct an ambiguous letter , that became this ESP / Good Citizen .

Perhaps the posting date , represents the Zodiac's last day of '' practice '' , before going ahead with his Presidio Heights project ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 04:20:10 pm

Robert E Lee
Robert H Coon
Robert Salem
Robert Louis Stevenson

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 04:35:04 pm

'' Go to 56 Beach Street '' , sounds like an instruction given , in the game of Monopoly .

The canning company associated with Haslett Warehouse , was '' Del Monte '' . '' Of the Mountain '' ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 05:29:20 pm

For this ESP / Good Citizen letter , sent to Vallejo's John Lynch , October 7th 1969 :

'' 56 Beach Street '' is close to the Bay Bridge .

A San Mateo postmark indicates close proximity to the San Mateo- Hayward Bridge .

One feels that one purpose of this letter , is to telegraph that extrication from a crime committed at Presidio Heights , was one of the two bridges referred - and '' not '' the Golden Gate - which the Zodiac , as it transpires , did ( probably ) use , for his getaway .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 05:41:13 pm

'' Go to 56 Beach Street . I get the name Jerry , perhaps he knows people...''

If 56 Beach Street was a temporary refuge , with soup kitchen , for lost and weary hippies , then we might be tapping in to the warped humour of the Zodiac ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 05:58:23 pm

I still find it difficult to believe that the Zodiac ever actually left his actual name behind , in any documented evidence . It's always possible , of course , on a basis of the thrill of knowing that it did exist , and that it wasn't as if he hadn't done so .

Was Jerry XXXXXXX , the Zodiac's real name ?

8/11/2020 07:41:05 pm

Hartnell said the killer spoke with a southern accent

Rubislaw 32 link

8/11/2020 10:34:09 pm

Is that right , BB ? I thought he said '' neutral '' , but I haven't read Hartnell's statement in a long while .

Based on interpretation , there is an inference that Hartnell suggested that the Zodiac didn't sound that educated . Perhaps he meant that he was succinct with his words ?

I suspect that Hartnell was '' overwhelming '' the Zodiac with his own words ( ? ) . Doing everything he could , to assure the Zodiac that he wished to assist the Zodiac , as a perceived robber .

But , of course , the Zodiac was never there for thieving .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 12:46:22 am

A suggestion of the Zodiac having a '' drawl '' ( ? ) .

Is a '' drawl '' necessarily synonymous with the south ?

Noticeable in the interview , that Hartnell was high on painkillers - he keeps jumping from one aspect to another , and back again .

Hartnell could never really pin down the Zodiac , for '' height '' ( ? ) .

Clearly, the Zodiac wasn't a short man . I don't think that Hartnell was ever standing up , in his encounter with the Zodiac .

Does anyone know different ?

8/12/2020 01:37:51 pm

Hartnell has zero real world knowledge.

He has never been cross examined.

Zero street smarts - don't feel sorry for him that was over fifty years ago.

I could write a book on how wishy washy this guy is.

This guy - his only knowledge is through books.

Talk about leading the witness - Hartnell is lead by the nose by the questioner.

Listen to his responses to questions. It is like he doesn't have a brain of his own.

The ultimate is his saying he was stabbed in the back with a twelve inch blade.

This is either the biggest mistake in the world or it is a lie.

For twelve inches of steel to pierce your body to the hilt even once and live - not likely.

Unless you got super lucky, and it somehow missed any vitals - your dead.

Let alone this happened six times.

This must be a mistake, and the blade was really just four inches long.

And because Hartnell is so tall he can't judge the height of average little people - this is his tone.

Take all the witness descriptions. Some say 5'8" some 5'8" or taller, some 5'8"to 6 foot. But almost always includes 5'8".
But, it is clear that they were leading the witness towards taller. Nobody seems to want it - if it's
of a 5'8" boogey man. Our idea of a monster is for them to be big. Finally Hartnell - to paraphrase says "fine have it your way - the perp was of the taller range - leave me alone just stop asking me questions what do I know anyways I am so tall that I am not a good judge of size of you normal average people." again this is his tone.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 02:54:51 pm

Indeed , a bit of a mystery when , he comes over philosophical , as with : '' Some crimes are just not meany to be solved .'' .

What about considering the memory of Cecelia Shepard ?

Doesn't she deserve more from him ( ? ) . To perhaps , keep checking on LE 's ( non ) performance ( ? ) .

It is , of course , his entitlement to deal with his experience , in the way that best suits him to cope with Lake Berryessa . But if it is the case , and as he seems to have tried to convey , in the past , that he regrets he didn't do more at the time.....then he does seem to have given off conflicting signals , at best , since .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 03:15:40 pm

Almost a '' telling '' observation about the phenomenon of height of the Zodiac . The CA DOJ do have it documented in a report of Lake Berryessa : '' 5ft 10in - 6ft 2in ''.

It is almost laughable that it is never mentioned with internet sleuths - mostly because it just wouldn't suit their '' medium to short ass '' suspects .

Only '' Sullivan '' took on these sorts of proportions - and his suspect validity was '' laughed out of the house '' a long time ago .

8/12/2020 06:00:28 pm

Rubislaw I keep trying to correlate other descriptions at the other crime scenes LMFAO as we have at least two separate killers. Take all the witness descriptions
Yes LB seems a taller guy was used. Serial Killers don't change weapons - they don't go from shooting to stabbing. We keep trying to force the height descriptions. We can't force the evidence to fit the crimes. That is why it is a group of guys. We will never find the guy with the story Graysmith has fed us.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 01:25:32 am

Yes...the interviewer pushed the '' drawl '' , and then corrected it to '' accent '' , BB . One assumes that '' southerner '' was inferred , but the reader never really received Hartnell's confirmation which , had probably come at the start , for which we are not privy to ( ? ) .

8/12/2020 08:34:30 am

When corrected it to"accent '' He really should have said dialect
As accent is for other countries and that would say the Zodiac
was a Mexican. And since he was headed to Mexico, and had dark hair
I thought - this was a copycat. However, if you compensate for the
ignorance of Hartnell then you would have to say that he meant dialect.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 08:51:24 am

I agree . Having now re-read Hartnell's published statement , it certainly appears as if we are viewing only part of one , from his hospital bed .

An interview , for which the police simply hoped to acquire as much initial information from Hartnell , as possible - just allowing him to talk , without pushing him , really .

It does seem more than likely that Hartnell agreed to further interviews with the police , More thoughts , in the sober light of day ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 10:28:45 am

So , it has come to pass that a smiling couple '' Angie and Tom '' are marketing Zodiac face masks , for the equivalent of $20 each , and have now sold 638 .

One presumes that Voigt has gone through all the proper channels on copyright ( ? ) , and that the IRS will be informed .

As I have pointed out to Zodiac followers , you should feel free to copy and paste the two high-profile Zodiac hoaxes , the '' Greetings from Ireland '' card , and '' Burger Chef Promo ''.....at your leisure and abundance .

No one seems to want to own up to those disgraceful creations , even though the FBI are entirely aware of the identity of The Balloon Captain .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 11:06:46 am

The Last time I heard , the publishing copyright for many of the Zodiac related correspondences , such as the Z340 cipher , is held by the Rupert Murdoch lead consortium '' 21st Century Fox ''.

'' 21st Century Fox '' own the publishing copyright to other well known media commodities , such as '' National Geographic Magazine '' and '' 20th Century Fox Movies '' .

One can only presume that Mr.Voigt has sought and gained appropriate permission for the commercial use , on his COVID-19 face masks ( ? ) .

Otherwise '' Angie and Tom '' might find themselves having to perform '' shoe shine '' duties for billionaire media tycoon , Rupert Murdoch , for a very long time .

8/12/2020 01:31:41 pm

What suspects are there with a southern dialect?

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 01:53:44 pm

Interesting question BB , and would have to scratch further.

Often , one sees influences mentioned , such as the Zodiac having been influenced by the Texarkana Moonlight murders .

What I have put forward is that Bill Grant was being persecuted , and to an extent '' fitted up '' by the Zodiac ,and that the Zodiac had been born and brought up in Texas .

This comes with a specific core and catalytic motive which , at this time unfortunately , am not in a responsible position to share . But , would certainly hope to , in the future .

Most of the usual internet created suspects have well defined links to California . And , its a pretty much a given that ALA and Grant were '' early runners '' with LE , themselves - both with close ties to Vallejo , specifically .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/12/2020 02:26:30 pm

Anyone notice the new celebrated resident of San Francisco , and Presidio Heights , in particular .

Hollywood '' goddess '' Julia Roberts has just purchased a 5- bedroom Victorian property , with expansive views across the Bay , having sold up and moved from Hawaii .

8/12/2020 03:24:04 pm

Dennis William Land, a descendant of pioneer Napa families, died March 17, 2010.

He was born at St. Helena Aug. 12, 1937 The same place Cecelia Ann Shepard died 32 years later

Horan tends to think that this man could have been her killer

The Zodiac killer may have been a creation of several men. His brother Officer Ray Land was also there that day.

The Zodiac cross symbol represented the letter D in the cracked cipher.

He always killed near water - it would seem apt with Land for a last name.

William for another of his names could be for the Mikado

Did he speak with a southern dialect?

8/12/2020 05:07:09 pm

Dennis William Land, died on St. Patrick's - Darlene's birthday 2010

Mr Grimpy

8/13/2020 11:27:41 am

So now criticizing a victim of the Zodiac is fair game. Have you two "experts" bottomed out yet?

8/13/2020 12:24:59 pm

Going by all the barriers of your's we'll never find-out who he is - this business is too rough for the timid.
With the Lake Berryessa deal - a real man would have told the girl to run - as he fought off the killer.
Fight or flight does not say - let yourself be tied and stabbed. What defines a man for me as an ex Marine Semper Fi is the readiness to die to protect women or children. If you feel the same you should toughen up. And try to understand that we are doing anything in our capability to identify the man that murdered multiple women.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 01:35:36 pm

Surely you aren't naive enough to believe that you can get off lightly , with a cheap and uninformed comment , such as yours , Mr.Gimpy ?

Certainly getting the smell of an arms length self-professed sleuth , who has never even bothered to dirty their fingernails , much less make sacrifices through conscience.....in the air .

Pungent .

8/13/2020 03:37:33 pm

On October 6 1969 Montana Prison Guard John R Thomas was shot dead in the town of Deer Lodge.

Some people are speculating that he may be a Zodiac victim. Lake Berryessa a girl is murdered just ten

days prior. The killer may have said the words Deer Lodge. But the easily lead Hartnell seems to have said

Colorado or Wyoming - then was suggested the words Deer Lodge Hint Hint - he gave-in to the questioner.

Police used to regularly lead the witness. It is a real world problem. Many people have been set free due to

the innocence projects work. Many times it is an over zealous interrogator that pressures the witness in the

direction he wants. And for a cop to want to convict a killer of another cop is definitely done with the most zeal.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 04:17:39 pm

Some interesting points made , BB .

More particular , as someone ( me ) who never really took much of an interest in True Crime , and how Law Enforcement engage , until about 12 years ago .

That , for example , investigating police can be prone to fixing justice , to keep their books and figures looking good , for the next round of budget allocations , is certainly foreign to anyone that expects normal moral principles to prevail , in a reasonable and democratic society .

More fool me .

To-day I found myself all over conceptual artist Carl Andre ( born 1935 MA USA ) , like a rash . It's not just the cipher grid systems as an influence , that would have attracted the Zodiac . One feels , almost all of Andre's work which , includes typewriting '' texture '' pieces , and postcards written and sent , but also as a poet and wordplay '' merchant '' . Even works , such as '' Poe Undead '' ( ! ) .

I even found myself wondering if 85-year old Andre wasn't the Zodiac himself (...half-kidding....) .

In 1985 , Carl Andre's wife , fellow artist Ana Mendiata , was found dead , having fallen from a window of their 34th floor apartment . She was wearing only her blue underwear . Four empty champagne bottles were found close by , and neighbours claimed to have heard arguments ensuing . Andre was arrested , with scratch marks to his face , and in a drunken stupor .

Three years later , Andre was cleared of complicity in her death , and her fall from the building was ruled a suicide .

Mr.Andre is certainly worth checking out , if only a persuasive influence on the Zodiac .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 04:56:30 pm

An interesting piece , if anyone feels inclined to sample , is '' American Drill - Red Cut , White Cut , Blue Cut '' A short book of poetry , published in 1963 ( accessed variously , through Google Images ) .

Certainly fishing there , for any comparisons to parts of the Desk Top Poem .

8/13/2020 05:53:33 pm

Rubislaw - perusing thru a lot of art related stuff - looking for anything generally?

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 06:38:04 pm

To catch the Zodiac out , as the plagiarist that we know that he was - is the biggest thrill .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 06:59:17 pm

With Carl Andre , he clearly has a thing about Edweard Muybridge - the Anglo-American pioneering photographer , who specialised in animal locomotion .

Before Muybridge , no one really knew how a horse was anatomically able to produce its speed , for example .

Muybridge is worth a look .

8/14/2020 08:33:07 am

Artist Carl Andre seems the type to be a Zodiac suspect

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 08:40:19 am

I presume Andre can account for his whereabouts 1968 - 1971 ( ? ) .

I'm just wondering when the Zodiac first latched on to Andre's work .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 07:20:17 pm

The Desk Top poem is a complex entity , made up of different parts .

I believe that Richard and Dornachak found the title , with the Earl of Clarendon near-copy . The Earl's common name was '' Edward Hyde '' . So , then we are into a link with Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde....and so then , Robert Louis Stevenson...and also Jack the Ripper . But also , Edward Hyde appears in '' War of the Worlds ''...and so , another link to H G Wells .

By the way , I just found out that Jack London was a one-time resident of Benicia .

Back to the Desk Top Poem , I found the '' Just wait till next time Red Barron '' quote , from a Peanuts Christmas Special book , with Snoopy atop his dog house .

'' r h '' = Rict-hofen = The Red Barron .

Naturally , with bias accepted , '' Red Barron '' was a sarcastic reference to Bill Grant...who was actually a Bomber Radio Op . who , found that Bombers were actually '' Death Machines '' , and managed to wrangle a '' cushy '' number , as a trainee cadet instructor , while his real brave Army Airforce colleagues were shipped off to Australia , to fight the war , on the Pacific Front .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 07:42:36 pm

Yes...Jack London , with one of his most famous books , '' The Sea Wolf '' , involving a shipping collision in San Francisco Bay .

Also , his collection , '' San Francisco Stories '' .

The Zodiac would have been keyed into Jack London , as a reader .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/13/2020 07:57:06 pm

Hyde Park in the heart of London , was originally known as Serpentine Park , but re-named Hyde Park , after '' War of the Worlds '' . But , retaining '' The Serpentine '' as the name , for its man-made lake .

'' Hyde Street '' and '' Stevenson Street '' in San Francisco , appear to take on something more than a coincidence ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 03:53:34 am

Just focusing back on the ESP/Good Citizen letter again , Richard , the Beach Street address was at the heart of the North Beach associations with the bookish Beatnik set , that had preceded the '' new '' Hippy era .

Book and music shops , poetry rooms and the like . Looks like the Zodiac was subliminally telegraphing his '' sort of people '' with that letter . Perhaps , feeling '' above '' these new-age '' hobos '' ( ? ) .

Neville Shute's 1957 post-apocalypse novel '' On the Beach '' , with its successful and subsequent film of the same name , was a cultural wake-up call . Post-nuclear fall-out , it featured a submarine arriving in San Francisco Bay , with few survivors .

Richard

8/14/2020 05:10:40 am

"During the 1960s, California was the site of many outdoor art fairs, which nurtured a culture of independent artists and craftspersons. At this time there was an effort to sell crafts on the sidewalks of the liberal Haight-Ashbury neighborhood of San Francisco. Artists and street performers who illegally set up in public areas were frequently harassed and arrested by the police. In the 700 block of Beach Street adjacent to Victorian Park and near Fisherman's Wharf, between 15 and 25 artists would set up their displays and use lookouts to alert them to the arrival of the police".

This certainly would have attracted the attention of somebody like Robert Salem, who was working at the Haslett Warehouse just yards away.

From old article Rubislaw

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 05:13:27 am

At the time of the ESP / Good Citizen , the ongoing and big news story was the trial of the '' Chicago 8 '' Yippies . The intellectual '' Youth International Party '' led by Berkeley University educated Jerry Rubin .

Charged with conspiracy to commit acts of rioting , the eight sought to make a mockery of court proceedings , adopting any stunt they could invent . This political activist group were seen as the real challenge by the younger generation , to the seeming war-mongering older generation , crystalizing the gulf in philosophies .

Jerry Rubin and his comrades were eventually found not guilty of conspiracy , but guilty of incitement to commit rioting by crossing State lines - later overturned . Though most of the eight had picked up various sentences for contempt of court , during the trial .

A debacle , that back-fired badly , on the establishment .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 02:22:48 pm

Interesting that the Hollywood film '' The trial of the Chicago Seven '' (...one of the accused had their charges dropped , during the trial...) , is to be released in two months time .

'' American Hustle '' , a Hollywood film about the FBI's Abscam project , was released to critical acclaim , in 2013 .

Coupled with the latest Tarrantino film surrounding the events of the Tate-LaBianca murders , three films now with possible links to the case of the Zodiac , in recent years .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 05:51:54 am

I notice that there is currently an original '' Melvin eats Blubber '' button , on sale on E-bay . With postage , a '' whopping '' $60 .

Imagine if one of the original '' Paul Steiner '' beer mugs appeared ( ? ) , as marketed by Zodiac internet pioneer , Tom Voigt ( 2004 ? ) .

Whenever that little business project is brought up , which included Arthur Leigh Allen underpants , Mr.Voigt suggests that we should all '' get over it '' .

More recently , he has even claimed that he produced the sordid merchandise , on account of '' Public Demand '' .

Of course , it must have been everyone else's fault . For , why would it have been the fault of Mr.Voigt ?

8/14/2020 06:08:43 pm

Hartnell tells the Zodiac "Kill me first cuz I'd hate to see the girl killed."

Then he plays dead as soon as possible so the Zodiac thinks this guy's no longer a threat.

But, now he could concentrate on silencing this alarm bell " the screaming girl ."

He stabbed her with glee as Hartnell says the Zodiac laughed hysterically.

He stabbed her more deliberately and more than twice as many times.

Hartnell was concerned with self preservation rather than protecting the girl.

It is disgraceful that Hartnell did not try to save her - then on top of that he blames her.

He says - by the way she described it - I assumed the Zodiac was much further away.

And "when I - the Giant Hartnell - was going to defend us - She said no don't"

Otherwise, I the great Hartnell would have saved us - but it's her own damn fault.

BS - Trust a self defense maxim - always separate - never stick together -
- the Zodiac killer like any other killer of any two or more victims.
Is depending on keeping them together. Hence tying them up.
If you separate he is going to abort because he presumes the other person is going for help.
Also, he is going to break off the attack because his plans have been ruined.
He wants to kill yes. But he wants to get away.
It is more important to him than the kill.
These killers may be psychotic - but - they're not delirious.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 06:49:18 pm

Most certainly the '' getaway '' for the Zodiac as the priority , BB . That part had to be practised , more than any other .

Never more evident , than at Presidio Heights . Up to Paul Stine's execution , there were , more than likely , a number of times that the Zodiac could have '' opted out '' without any reasonable suspicion placed on him , by Stine in particular .

But ,once electing to murder Stine , then the Zodiac was self-contracted to make good his escape , and survival as a free person , not least an alive one .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 07:20:22 pm

This is a point , of more importance , I believe , that many give notice ( ? ) .

The realistic circumstances are , and are so far available in terms of public knowledge , that....

The Zodiac did not have a '' legitimate '' place of destination , with which to offer Paul Stine . An address for which , either the Zodiac resided at , himself , or an address for which the Zodiac intended to visit ( ...as that of someone familiar to the Zodiac , anyway ...) .

'' Washington & Maple '' as the Zodiac wrote , c/w blooded shirt swatch , is not the same as '' Washington & Cherry '' , where Stine and the Zodiac ended up . This infers that the Zodiac had persuaded Stine to take him , the Zodiac , to a non-specific destination .

How had the Zodiac managed this ?

I would suggest that the Washington '' general '' request , was the second request from the Zodiac....having previously succeeded in a business transaction , with Stine , shortly prior....in order to '' earn '' Stine's additional trust .

Money had already been handed to Stine , by the Zodiac , prior to the ultimate destination of '' Washington & Cherry '' , was reached .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 07:55:34 pm

Yes indeed , and anyone is free to throw the brickbats in my direction , but...

For the sake of a ten-dollar bill which , the Zodiac would re-claim after his execution of Stine , the Zodiac managed to persuade Stine to take him , the Zodiac , to second destination .

A destination that ,was '' somewhere up Washington Street , possibly near Maple Street ....'' .

A lure of an additional ten-dollar bill to the Zodiac's first requested ( ...and relatively short journey...) , that cost Paul Stine his life .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 08:02:32 pm

Could it have been different to a ten-dollar bill ?

Not likely - if you are going to bribe someone , on a small scale manoeuvre , then keep the bribe realistic .

Credulity of persuasiveness is key .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/14/2020 08:58:52 pm

The persuasiveness of the authenticity of a July 19th 1978 typed letter to the San Francisco Chronicle ( ? ) .

April 24th 1978 :

'' That city pig Toschi is good , but I am smarter and better . He will get tired and leave me alone .''

Monday July 10th 1978 : Following an admission by Inspector Dave Toschi that he sent fan mail to a journalist at the SF Chronicle , under the guise of someone else , singing his own praises , Toschi begins a re-assignment to Pawn Detail , for his employers , the SFPD .

Saturday July 15th 1978 : The New York Times report the July 10th turn of events to Dave Toschi , adding that Toschi has denied responsibility for the April 24th 1978 letter .

Wednesday July 19th 1978 : The Zodiac types a letter to the SF Chronicle , which includes a veiled ridicule of Toschi's recent predicament :

'' But maybe you play chess with me ? I have several cheap sets in closets , all over .''

'' Cheap Sets '' = Ladies Costume Jewellery , re-saleable only through Pawn shops .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/15/2020 03:51:17 am

That is all there is , with ( presumed ) reference to Toschi , from the Zodiac , but could be construed , thus :

'' But maybe you indulge in '' pawn-play '' with me ? I have several '' necklace and earring '' matching sets , and in many different places .''

Clever stuff , if you like bitching , from distance ( ? ) .

Sometimes , you have to wonder if , failing to find any forensics evidence on a particular correspondence then , LE just gave up looking for clues , and stored them away....for a rainy day that never came .

Shawn

8/15/2020 07:03:37 am

Might wanna look up the movies that were playing in the Bay Area on April 24th, 1978. Maybe the 1971 "Zodiac" movie was playing again or "Dirty Harry".

Sometime it appears Zodiac was quick to put out a letter based on recent news or maybe triggered by a current movie?

"I am waiting for a good movie"

Zodiac did not have ESP. But the breakthrough Slasher Film "Halloween" started filming in Los Angeles in May of 1978.

I guess he could have read about plans for the "Halloween" movie film before April 28th in a newspaper like "Variety". Several Hollywood type magazines would have articles about upcoming film projects.

"Halloween" was released on Oct. 25th, 1978.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/15/2020 01:46:13 pm

Nice spot on the making of '' Halloween '' , Shawn .

I think that there is every chance that the Zodiac was aware of the making of this film . One senses that the Zodiac was not one to stay at home , of a weekend , and liked to be out and about , embracing the latest cultural fad or attraction , with a longer motoring journey than most would accept , certainly no obstacle to his getting about .

But also , with specific home-based residency in mind , the May 1978 letter , with postmark '' Anaheim '' really does seem to telegraph that Greater Los Angeles was , at that time , the Zodiac's primary '' home '' , although all three known 1978 letters tend to indicate that the Zodiac was spending considerable periods of time '' away from home '' - and may even have been overseas .

Shawn

8/15/2020 07:35:28 am

I did a search for movies playing Sunday, April 23rd in the San Fran Examiner.

One movie playing on TV stuck out (kind of).

"From Hell It Came"

The basic plot of the movie is a man is stabbed through the heart by a witch doctor and buried in a hollow tree truck. He is forgotten until nuclear radiation reanimates him as in the form of the "Tabonga", a scowling tree stump that goes on a kill rampage.

In a odd way it reminds me of the "Halloween" card tree trunk. (lol)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Hell_It_Came

8/15/2020 09:02:19 am

If it were by Inspector Dave Toschi - could it be possible that he did more than just send fan mail to a journalist at the SF Chronicle? If that was all there was to it he would not have been so demoted. And, perhaps then he was caught blue handed. Blue with the Zodiac ink on them. Not red from any killings.
Perhaps the killings were done by random killers yet set-up to look like a solitary killer.This has been proposed by many people - long before the Horan hype-o-thesis. I'm just asking could it be possible?

Rubislaw 32 link

8/15/2020 02:07:39 pm

I think that most Zodiac followers tend to admire Toschi , and don't hold it against him , that he gave in to temptation over something that exposed him to , on occasion , the limelight and , the human weaknesses of vanity , for which we are all prone , once in a while .

Sadly , and despite '' notables '' , such Sherwood Morrill , running to Toschi's defence , Toschi very well could have damaged the Paul Stine murder case , specifically , beyond judicial reclamation .

Legal Defence Teams can make '' mincemeat '' of behaviour , such as Toschi's , later on down the line .

I believe that all Toschi ever wanted in life , apart from the love of his family , was to be '' Sherlock Holmes '' .

Just sad , the way it worked out .

8/15/2020 04:56:13 pm

Very good of you Rubislaw to say - However that did not answer the difficult question.
I know you believe in the good in MAN. But I am asking what is in the mind not the heart.
Could he David Toschi have written more than just the fan letters?
If they are different. How are they different?
At first they were thought to be authentic.
Is this line of questioning off limits?
What if he fooled us all?
And we are too locked into our beliefs to think it a possible con job?

Rubislaw 32 link

8/15/2020 07:12:43 pm

Good to keep the key question highlighted , BB .

If we stay focused on the three known possible 1978 Zodiac letters .

April - handwritten ; May - handwritten ; July - typed .

The April 24th 1978 letter remains officially authentic , albeit tainted by the controversy surrounding , and in the wake of the Toschi fan mail scandal .

But , as a consequence of the public relations nightmare that ensued , at the door of the CA DOJ , the CA DOJ never fully addressed the previously public exercise of authentication judgement on subsequent letters that did emerge , albeit the odd one receiving some media debate .

But in 1978 specifically , the May 1978 letter ( Channel 9 ) never received any publicised judgement ......and the July 1978 letter only turning up in Graysmith's '' Zodiac Unmasked '' second book .

In my opinion , at this time , all three Zodiac 1978 letters '' are '' legitimate and true Zodiac-authentic - by the hand of the '' one and only '' Zodiac Killer . An attempt , by the Zodiac , down on his luck in his private life , attempting to muscle back into the limelight , as a viable and credible terrorist threat , yet again .

At no time , I believe , did Inspector Toschi forge , or attempt to forge anything directly or remotely related to '' evidence '' , including letters , in particular .

The reality of the worst behaviour by any law enforcement agency , was the creation of the Husted Report by the Vallejo P.D. . Either the Vallejo P.D. knew what they were doing , in acting illegally - or they were just '' plain daft '' .

But , sadly it's Toschi's fan mail '' indiscretions '' that history will highlight most .

Human frailty - it's what made Shakespeare's plays so great .

Richard

8/16/2020 08:29:57 am

I know you like the New Canaan letters and ciphers Rubislaw. The decoded cryptograms mentions Shauna and Missus Taylor. Shauna is mentioned twice, and in one section reads "Shauna, if you wish to know my identity you will have to put some effort into it, not fiddle and fart around. Here is a clue as Missus Taylor. If she remembers who draws the symbol then you will have me". Michael Morford believed this may have been a young kid who authored these two Stamford, Connecticut communications. So I looked up the New Canaan High School class year books where the forename Shauna and surname Taylor were present in the same high school year. In 1989 (one year after the 1988 letters) there was a Shauna McCarthy and a Christa Taylor in that high school year. Only 26,120 girls in the United States have been named Shauna since 1880. That is 140 years. So finding Shauna in the 1988 New Canaan letters and in a 1989 New Canaan year book, in accompaniment to a 'Missus Taylor' is significant. These two women would be about 48 today, and may probably know the strange kid in their classroom who "draws the symbol". Probably on the blackboard. He may have read Graysmith's 1986 book. Here is a link to the high school class year of 1989.
https://old-friends.co/school.php?s=16684#1989

Richard

8/16/2020 08:31:22 am

Here is the class of 1989.
Aaron Enrico
Adrian Nichols
Alison McGreevey
Amanda Hugnkiss
Amy Lutz
Amy Rosenbach
Amy Smith
Andrew Shveda
Anne-Marie Radmall
Anne Conrad
Annemarie Deville
Annemarie Sandstrom
Anthony Sutton
Arlene Gravereaux
Arthur Rimbaud
Blake Alcock
Bonnie Rose
Cam MacDONALD
Cara Prichard
Carol Pace
Cat Belluschi Paulk
Catherine Palmer
Catherine Tucker
Charles Brownell
Christa Taylor
Christine Bodnar
Christine Diaz
Chris Tonra
Cindy Linn
Claude Kananack
Clint Roland
Colby Wood

Craig Librett
Daniel Goldblatt
Dava Firlik
David Hickey
David Schwartz
Dawn Schoeler
Douglas (Doug) Spottswood
Eileen Cassidy
Einar Gustafsson
Elizabeth (Liz) Ainny
Emily Falkenstein
Eric Knight
Gino Sambino
Gregory (Greg) Partch
Gregory (Greg) Simms
Horace Bowler
Jamie Anderson
Jason Walker
Jeanne Walsh
Jeffrey (Jeff) Cruickshank
Jennifer (Jen) Meyer
Jennifer (Jen) Ryan
Jennifer Librett
Jennifer Luff
Jennifer Martin
Jennifer Peeling
Jennifer Tobey
Jens Larsen
Jessica Sweidan
Joanna Taylor Adamson
Joel Borgman
Joel Schutzman

John Rilling
Jonathan Lowrie
Jonathon (Jon) Rehnberg
Jonathon (Jon) Williams
Joseph (Joe) Schmoe
Julia Mojik
Kelly Gray
Kelly Maloney
Kimberly "Kim" Kingan
Kristen Smith
Kristen Stone
Krystyna Krassowska
Lara Fellin
Laura Flynn
Lauren Gibbons
Luke Fitzsimons
Marieka Cunningham
Markus Schmucki
Mary Beirne Rewcastle
Marybeth Pickering
Mary Henry
Matthew (Matt) Mason
Matthew Orourke
Mb Pickering
Meghan Davey
Meghan Fitzgerald
Melanie Swain
Michael (Mike) Greene
Michael (Mike) Mullane
Micheal Hodgman
Missy Benage
Missy Reilly

Nannette Carpenter
Nhu Bragg
Nicole Flavin
Nina Purvis
Ogden Carroll
Pieter Bergmans
Polly Street
Rachel Farnham
Rich Mowery
Robert (Rob) Bannister
Ronald Miller
Rosa Spadaccini
Russell (Russ) Bryan
Sara Brennan
Shauna McCarthy
Sheila Molloy
Stephen Fuller
Steven "Steve" Oconnor
Steven (Steve) Crowell
Steven O'Connor
Susan "Sue" Grimes
Susanne Hollinger
Tami Shay
Tara Hoyt
Thomas "Tom" Kaminski
Timothy (Tim) Zwick
Tracy Townshend
Valori Lunsford
William Chen
William Molnar

Richard

8/16/2020 08:39:43 am

Shauna McCarthy now lives in Pennsylvania
https://www.whitepages.com/name/Shauna-Mccarthy/PA

Richard

8/16/2020 08:43:21 am

At 239 Rodney Cir Bryn Mawr PA 19010-3729

https://www.google.com/maps/place/239+Rodney+Cir,+Bryn+Mawr,+PA+19010,+USA/@40.0117555,-75.3197964,127a,35y,240.91h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6c00da3f5d09d:0xe870ad88ef230ffe!8m2!3d40.0113866!4d-75.3212093

8/16/2020 12:26:11 pm

Richard - These are clues or leads or trace elements that have been left behind for us to examine.

Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value.

Paul L. Kirk 1966

There he defined Locard's exchange principle
Which says that the perpetrator of a crime will bring something
into the crime scene and leave with something from it.
Kirk is best known for his work in the Sam Sheppard case 1966
Which he proved that Sheppard could not have done it.
Dr. Edmond Locard (1877–1966) was a pioneer in forensic science
who became known as the Sherlock Holmes of France. He formulated
the basic principle of forensic science as: "Every contact leaves a trace".

Richard

8/16/2020 12:42:05 pm

I don't want to misrepresent Rubislaw's opinions, but I believe he thinks that Canaan letter may be/or are Zodiac. I don't consider them Zodiac at all, moreover, a couple of communication written by a bored teenager with a few brain cells missing. But by finding Shauna and Missus Taylor, it may lead to the identity of the author.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/16/2020 02:52:54 pm

Thanks for the extra information , both Richard and BB .

And , I will gratefully take note of Shauna McCarthy's details , for a possible later time , Richard .

With a persuasive link , now made , via the Santa Claus card , between the Zodiac and Joan Webster's father George , albeit as the Zodiac being at least one person who persecuted George , in the wake of his daughter's disappearance....then he , the Zodiac must surely be perceived as a realistic suspect , as responsible for Joan's death also .

The 1988 New Canaan Letters , with the Z263 cipher and its riddle justifiably therefore , take on greater importance of '' focus '' , at the very least .

Mr.Morford received this from the FBI , circa March 2015 and , then received a subsequent '' anonymous '' e-mail ( Morf's words ) outlining a , so far , unsubstantiated surrounding explanation , involving this male adolescent .

As a general assessment of the New Canaan Letters , I think there are pros and cons . The Zodiac was want to make references linking his previous work , but never have we observed so many familiar references , that the notion of copycat material ( i.e. a forgery ) , certainly holds merit .

Known plagiarist Zodiac , plagiarising his own work ; some of which was plagiarised ( ? ) - Heaven help us - but could be true .

Interesting that in examining the work of conception minimalist artist , Carl Andre , it becomes apparent that '' grid and square '' obsessive Andre , still creates some work with incomplete grids and squares - precisely what is introduced to the viewer of Z263 , and a ''first time '' for a possible Zodiac . Just as two years later , the Celebrity Cypher introduced syntax to a cipher , for the first time .

I will try to allocate more time to the New Canaan Letters . I am currently of the opinion that the Zodiac sent the New Canaan letters to George Webster's mistress , in order to embarrass George ,in the eyes of his grieving family . I have '' uncovered '' as such , some details to The Greenwich Choral Society , that may bear fruit .

A recent post by Eva Carson , at websleuths indicates that the FBI found a name '' of interest '' written on an unspecified item , found among the contents of Joan Webster's blue Lark suitcase , which was discovered in the days after her disappearance , at a Greyhound bus station .

Perhaps it is the case that Joan's perpetrator made the mistake of not opening and checking inside her suitcase , before ridding himself of it ( ? ) .

He , or the Zodiac ( ? ) must surely have made a fundamental error , somewhere .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/16/2020 09:47:13 pm

This seems to be a repeating piece of claimed evidence , by the FBI...

That the ( presumed ) Bearded Man , who first attempted to load Joan's large blue suitcase into the first taxi driver's boot of his cab , did not subsequently break into Joan's suitcase , when the suitcase was found at the Greyhound Bus Station .

But , rather worryingly , it seems that this is the second time , or even third time , that the FBI has changed the information , relayed to Eve Carson about the Bearded Man's height . Ms.Carson is even going back to suspecting George , Joan's father , of Joan's murder .

This is '' very naughty '' , if true .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/16/2020 04:07:38 pm

An interesting coincidence is that Carl Andre was born and brought up , in Quincy , Massachusetts . Just south of Boston . Two years at Art College , after leaving school ; then a year in the Army , before moving to New York .

Out of work artist - what does he do ? 4 years as a Brakeman on the railways , in Pennsylvania , until 1964 , before beginning to succeed as an artist and poet .

1966 , Tate Gallery , London , was his big break .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/16/2020 04:27:58 pm

The BBC's long-running weekly show , Tomorrow's World , ran from 1965 to 2003 ,equivalent to High-Tec and new inventions programs today .

The program's first presenter was ex-Spitfire pilot and Dunkirk hero , Raymond Baxter . Through Baxter's marriage to American , Sylvia Johnson , Baxter was the uncle of Carl Andre .

8/17/2020 12:48:43 pm

Some of the things pointing to the group thesis for the Zodiac.

It was stated in the DOJ report that one of the eight bullets tested did not exhibit 6 right hand groove class characteristics.

This and other clues say that there were two or more people acting as a group working together at LHR.

The things in the Zodiac correspondence suggesting a connection to a duo are mostly subjective. There is this symbolic reference however on the dragon card.
Don Quixote and Sancho Panza
for
Don Cheney and Santo Panzarella
Although it would probably be for a patsy to be blame.

Of the many clues pointing to multiple perps at Blue Rock Springs.
Arrested were Donald W. Porter and James D. Phillips
Phillips' brother Rick Crabtree went to school with Betty Lou at Hogan High

Then to pick-out one of the many things to say multiple perps at Lake Berryessa
There is the disposal of evidence by brothers Ray and Dennis Land.
As for Paul Stine there is the fact of two separate crime scenes.
And there are the separate directions for men witnessed in exit.

Then you have the two different keys of the 408 pointing to some one co-opting the message.
Some one in a position of power, perhaps at the Examiner or as the police night watchman.
The Gaviota Beach murders definitely point to multiple actors. With the dragging of the bodies.
With the crimes of at-least three teens also taking place the day before being linked.
Then there is the description of two people missing from the CJB re-enactment.
But with Oceanside's Ray Davis murder we see no obvious involvement of another guy.

Getting to the Vallejo High class of 1957 - George Bawart, William "Bill" Leigh (Darlene and Dean's boss). And, also 1957 - Ron Allen - ALA's brother. These guys knew each other well going to the same school the same grade.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/vallejo-and-hogan-high-school-students-t5230.html

8/17/2020 04:22:38 pm

Richard when you said this last year -

Perhaps this person with mental health issues drove an oxidized Studebaker, that may have been mistaken for the Tucker Torpedo allegedly parked behind Cheri Jo Bates' Volkswagen Beetle. Ear witnesses described an old car starting up shortly after the screams from the alleyway.

Were you contemplating the shortish bearded man with the blonde to possibly be the driver of the oxidized Studebaker?

Phillips drove a couple of different clunkers at that time - this being the time when he hospitalized Darlene three times.

These many different nurses that wound up dead may have seen injuries someone did not want anyone to testify to.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/opzv/722.html

Rick Crabtree - Jim's brother shot dead their brother Paul with a .22 in 1965

Could Rick have also killed Paul Stine - just to get his brother dead brother one more time?

Rick Crabtree went to school with Betty Lou at Hogan High - maybe he was jealous of David.

Barbara Parkin's family home was 218 Nebraska, St., Vallejo - maybe he followed her.

Lake Herman Road was not just some lonely country road. It was the connection between Benicia and Vallejo.

I am not sure exactly what I'm getting at. But I'm thinking cops and drugs and motorcycle gangs.

The Ott drug dealers possibly hiring a lawyer/liar in William Crow to make-up a cover story for them.

He says to cops much later that he was in a car that no one can verify - that he was chased by a solitary nut in a car that no one else saw. Out of all the different types of attorneys there are - Crow is a Vallejo Criminal attorney with a fishy tale.

Richard

8/17/2020 04:47:36 pm

Not the bearded man and woman, just a lone killer sitting in wait for CJB to attempt to start her vehicle. It was just the timing of about 2 minutes from scream to car starting up that peaked my interest of where the assailant's car was parked. However, because the woman who overheard the vehicle lived at the Sheri Lynn apartments, it's more likely that if the old car was the assailant's, it was more likely parked west of the alleyway. Besides BB, I'm totally unconvinced CJB had anything to do with Zodiac. At least the murder itself.

8/17/2020 06:11:55 pm

Could Rick have also killed Paul Stine - just to get his brother dead brother one more time?

I meant

Could Rick have also killed Paul Stine - just to make his dead brother - dead one more time?

8/17/2020 06:17:18 pm

Are you totally convinced CJB had nothing to do with Zodiac?

or do you make room for the potential that it could be?

There is about 70/30 for in my mind.

Richard

8/18/2020 12:42:09 am

I have varied over the years BB, but at the moment I would say 95/5 against it being Zodiac for the murder. 80/20 chance of not being the letter writer.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/18/2020 01:30:27 am

Crikey Richard , you really are in '' pessimism straits '' over the Bates correspondences ( ? ) .

As time goes on , it seems more and more likely that the Zodiac had nothing to do with Cheri Jo's murder .

But the correspondences , and at least most them is really a '' lynch pin '' to the Bates case , as being a realistic outlier phenomenon of the Zodiac case . The FBI must have spent at least 8 years on the correspondences , albeit from '' behind a desk '' .

Are you '' in flux '' over a 80/20 against opinion ? Or , is this you placing a permanent marker on the correspondences ?

Rubislaw 32 link

8/18/2020 02:57:39 am

To each his own , as is said .

80/20 against Zodiac having murder Cheri Jo

But , 99% confident that the Zodiac is responsible for the Confession Letter and Desk Top Poem .

Given what we observe of the Zodiac's correspondences later on ( from July 1969 ) , then who on earth else is going to think up , both the cruelty of posting after a tragedy , as well as composition content of the correspondences ( ? ) .

Zodiac wasn't the only hoaxing nutter in California , but there were few that operated on his scale , and almost all of the '' heavy hitters '' , though not necessarily being prosecuted , had records of have served time in '' funny farms '' .

Was the Zodiac , in his guise ever questioned ? Probably , but as we have even experienced with a small number , that populate the Zodiac internet ....they are well-practised and accomplished liars and deceivers , with little that could be recognised as a conscience for what they ply .

Richard

8/18/2020 07:57:01 am

Do you know Rubislaw, the more I look at the casual "I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones, there are a hell of a lot more down there", the more I think he's a liar. He adopts almost a dismissive or reluctant approach, in that his hand is being forced to give police credit. Then immediately passes the moment of Cheri Jo Bates (that he could have given more proof or extra details of his involvement), to effectively attempt to bolster his involvement in the Riverside murder by claiming a lot more, thereby attempting to sell the notion it was no big deal. His "hell of a lot more" he provides no details about and nobody else can find any murders in that timeframe that resemble a Zodiac style crime, or otherwise. His passive, short March 13th communication a rather telling example of somebody bolstering his claim to the Riverside murder, by claiming additional murders he can't prove or provide evidence for either.

Rubislaw 32 link

8/18/2020 09:39:38 am

Yes , I certainly see this ''...claiming a lot more , thereby attempting to sell the notion that it was no big deal . ''

Perhaps tricky to interpret , but there does seem to be a bit of : '' Well , you found me out on that one , but do you really believe that it has earned you a medal....''.

Every time one looks up the word '' Psychopath '' , the inevitable first word of ingredient is '' Glib '' . Whenever a psychopath is found out , their first reaction is to find a '' roll off the tongue '' retort , in order to belittle the one who exposes ; belittle that which has been exposed , and belittle the occasion . Just a defence mechanism giving off signals , for which they are unable to see , as other do .

Rubislaw 32 link

8/17/2020 04:39:32 pm

Some very pertinent points brought to the fore , BB , and your last paragraph certainly does bring to mind that , at the very epicentre of the beginning of the case ( retrospectively ) , there was a considerable number of men of a similar age , from Vallejo and close surrounds , who all knew or knew of each other .

One can only imagine the talk and opinions expressed in the Vallejo P.D.'s locker room , and for a number of years , for example .

But indeed a gist of what I interpret , as a message that a small group , but more particularly a partnership of two ( ? ) , could have been responsible for the phenomenon of '' The Zodiac '' .

And , perhaps it is the case ( ? ) , that the Dragon Card , represents the first real telegraphing of this .

I still hold with '' One Zodiac '' , but I think that some sort of loose partnership may have been the case .

I have tried to intimate in the past (... but why should I know more than anyone else ..) , that the Benicia High School Note ought to be taken seriously , as Zodiac authentic . And , never was there more of a telling case , among the unconfirmed correspondences . of the suggestion that the Zodiac was , either in partnership with someone else ( '' Byson '' )....or that the Zodiac wished it to be telegraphed that he was in partnership with someone else .

Naturally , I personally believe that '' that '' someone else was Bill Grant , and that it was a lie , on the Zodiac's part . But it could work equally , for another '' pair '' , such as Allen and Cheney .

Lyndon Lafferty was fed the Celebrity Cypher , by the Vallejo P.D. , and the Benicia High School Note , by the Benicia P.D. Unquestionably , by the '' say so '' of the CA DOJ . And , this would have been about 2 years (2006 ) after the CA DOJ had given Lafferty '' his '' bad news that Grant had been cleared , by DNA comparison to the Zodiac .

But , the CA DOJ still , obviously , had faith in Lafferty as a diligent and trustworthy citizen , and elected to '' select '' Lafferty , as the person they . the CA DOJ , wished to leak information with care and responsibility .

The Celebrity Cypher.....'' and '' the Benicia High School Note .

In the context of the Zodiac case , as well as the circumstances of those two correspondences being introduced to the public :

Of equal importance .

8/31/2020 03:15:37 pm

"I AM WAITING FOR A GOOD MOVIE"

The 2007 movie was a good movie.
If he were still alive wouldn't he have said something?

"I AM WAITING FOR A GOOD MOVIE"

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