THE DECEMBER 19TH 1969 ZODIAC PAYPHONE CALL

3/9/2020

It is very likely that the Lake Berrryessa attack on Bryan Calvin Hartnell (20) and Cecelia Ann Shepard (22) was inspired by the newspaper articles in the August 4th 1969 San Francisco Examiner and August 6th 1969 San Francisco Chronicle. Both ran major news articles on the brutal murders of Deborah Furlong (14) and Kathy Snoozy (15) in San Jose on August 3rd 1969, while the Zodiac Killer was relegated to the lesser pages, despite his three murders and boastful communications, that included his cryptic puzzles. He knew that a savage close-quarter knife attack was required - and the tactic worked - because law enforcement subsequently pondered a connection between the Zodiac crimes and the Snoozy and Furlong murders in San Jose. The Zodiac Killer also acquired his front page coverage and the added bonus of bolting two extra victims onto his total in the Dripping Pen card on November 8th 1969. He would further implicate his connection to the San Jose murders by threatening a widow in the November 21st 1969 San Jose code letter. However, it didn't stop there.

There is one crucial feature of the first eight Zodiac letters, in that none explicitly threatened the lives of law enforcement, other than the wording "If you cops think I'm going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads" in the November 9th 1969 Bus Bomb letter. Then, three unpublished letters and one particular phone call arrived. The San Jose code letter threatened a woman in San Jose on November 21st 1969, followed by the December 16th 1969 Fairfield letter threatening cops in numerous cities, including San Jose. Both unpublished, yet both continuing the San Jose theme. It is also significant that the November 21st 1969 communication was mailed directly to the police in San Jose. In between the November 21st 1969 and December 16th 1969 letters was another Fairfield letter, mailed on December 7th 1969 and also threatening cops. It stated "I will kill again, so expect it any time the will be a cop". We now have three communications with a continuing theme of threatening police, none of which were published in the newspapers. Either these letters were from the Zodiac Killer, or a hoaxer had inferred the San Jose connection from the "Aug" month on the November 8th 1969 Dripping Pen card all by himself. Bearing in mind the similarity between both Fairfield letters in handwriting and mailing location, and the "real" Zodiac mailing the Melvin Belli letter on December 20th 1969, pleading for "help" just like the December 7th 1969 Fairfield letter, it leaves little doubt of a single author throughout. But what of the phone call to police on December 19th 1969, the day before the Melvin Belli letter?

On December 19th 1969, somebody claiming to be the Zodiac Killer again threatened cops, making a phone call to Sergeant Robert Rengsdorff of the San Jose Highway Patrol (see article on right), stating "I am going to kill five of you officers and a family of five between now and Monday". This threat towards San Jose police and a family of five was issued on a Friday, exactly as was the November 21st 1969 letter, mailed to San Jose police threatening harm on a widow. After the threat on the widow was thwarted by 24-hour police surveillance on her residence, was this the response, to once again instigate fear in the San Jose community? We know he was threatening the lives of numerous police officers, but the threat on five members of a family appears chosen.

I now believe this was the Zodiac Killer. This telephone call came off the back of a previous direct correspondence with San Jose police just a month earlier. It also continued the theme of threatening police officers (five to be exact), just like the unpublished Fairfield letters - in particular, the December 16th 1969 communication threatening the lives of up to 38 police officers. Two contacts from an individual just three days apart, both claiming multiple threats on police. For this to be two separate individuals, not only targeting San Jose police in such close proximity to one another, but also be separate to the author of the unpublished November 21st 1969 letter to San Jose police, would be quite something. There may be even more reason to believe the phone call to Sergeant Robert Rengsdorff was the Zodiac Killer.

The threat of killing "a family of five between now and Monday" is rather specific, almost as though he had earmarked a couple with three children. We know the Zodiac Killer read the August 4th 1969 San Francisco Examiner and August 6th 1969 San Francisco Chronicle, which inspired his attack at Lake Berryessa and subsequent claim to the Snoozy and Furlong murders by the addition of "Aug" on the November 8th 1969 Dripping Pen card. This is an obsession he would carry forward into 1971, referencing the Snoozy and Furlong murders at least two more times, if not three. The August 6th 1969 San Francisco Chronicle article, entitled The Frenzy Of San Jose Girls Slayer, read under the banner of Children "The other Furlong children are Glen, 16; Floyd, 12, and Pamela, 11. Furlong said he did not know and had not yet talked to Kathy's parents, Mr. and Mrs. Wilfred Snoozy. Both Snoozy, a carpet layer, and Mrs. Snoozy reportedly are in a state of collapse. Her funeral has been scheduled Friday at 11 a.m. at the Place Funeral Home in Los Gatos. Burial will be at Oak Wood Cemetery in Santa Cruz. Funeral services for Kathy will be held tomorrow (Thursday) at 2 p.m. at the Oak Hill Memorial Park Mortuary in San Jose. Burial will be at Oak Hill Memorial Park".

The Furlong's had three surviving children called Glen, 16; Floyd, 12, and Pamela, 11, which ties in with the threat from the December 19th 1969 telephone caller to kill "a family of five between now and Monday". This would not only have continued the threat regarding the Snoozy and Furlong murders, but also the phone call was directed towards San Jose. The question to be asked is, did law enforcement consider this a possible connection to the Furlong family and offer them protection as had been given to the widow on November 21st 1969? We know of two certain Zodiac phone calls, so was this the third? The August 6th 1969 San Francisco Chronicle article also contained the burial location of Kathy Snoozy at Oak Hill Memorial Park. The cemetery is situated in the Monticello neighborhood of San Jose, which featured in Zodiac's July 13th 1971 Monticello card.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/9/2020 12:37:03 am

Just to add to possible discussions , Richard , and in light of the report that a claimed Zodiac phoned a Highway Patrol Station , specifically :

In the presumed Zodiac's 2nd Fairfield Letter of December 16th 1969 , he outlined possible future killings . '' You will not catch me...'' , then a list drawn up , with quantity of killings in mind .

These quantities amounted to the numbers , in order with one correction , thus :

'' 3 1 6 8 9 3 8 ''

And , on the simplest of alphabetic substitutions , convert to :

'' C A F H I C H ''

Three possible solutions on interpretation ( ? ) :

i ) California Hitchcock ( a location or scenario ? )

ii ) Cafe Hitchhikers ( types of innocent victims ? )

iii ) California Highway Patrol Choppers ( the highway cops ? )

Richard

3/9/2020 02:26:23 am

Or [4] They aren't cryptic or a hidden message, just threats to kill.
They could have an ulterior meaning, but not everything Zodiac created was necessarily fashioned with a hidden message, moreover bog standard threats to murder police. Also, with just 7 numbers, the options are manyfold and ultimately unprovable, just like the 13 and 32 symbol ciphers. Without the length of the 340 and 408 cipher with some designated key, proving the answer we find to the satisfaction of anybody or everybody is an impossible task. It's like saying "what is the meaning of the 13 puncholes in the October 5th card". Many of us may be confident of the correct answer, but proving it is effectively nil. This is exemplified by your three examples Rubislaw. I could add another 100 interpretations to CAFHICH, and now we have a bigger problem - which is correct, if any. Unfortunately, none of this proved, including much of the Zodiac story in general. The best we can do is give a convincing answer above all others. But again, we rely on the who is interpreting our suggestions and their knowledge of the Zodiac case as a whole. I always give the Halloween card as the best example, including the strange symbol. Hundreds of solutions, including many of my own. All unprovable because of the malleability of the cards make-up. The best we can do is supply links through many communications, thereby creating an overall theme or message.

Richard

3/9/2020 03:21:10 am

I can see the connection that you are suggesting Rubislaw, in that ''3 1 6 8 9 3 8'' represents "CAFHICH", bearing in mind three days later the Zodiac Killer rang California Highway Patrol. My only question would be, why didn't Zodiac write "3 1 8 16" or something similar.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/9/2020 05:10:41 am

Indeed , Richard , many meanings could be derived , if such a basic solution as '' CAFHICH '' was accepted as offered with intention .

On the Hitchcock interpretation , it could be a reference to the film ''Psycho '' ( 1960 ) - the first of what became known as '' The Slasher '' genre . With victim '' Marion '' , played by Janet Leigh , whose car was intended to be hidden in a swamp , at Grizzly Island , near Fairfield .

With Highwayman Jack Sheppard , a.k.a. Mac the Knife , known for slashing his robbed victims .

Interesting that the '' You will not catch me .'' list includes Sacramento , the only non-Bay area place name . Also , that San Jose is only assigned one killing , although the phone caller promised a total of ten ( 5 + 5 ) .

I think that '' CAFHICH '' is probably an intended puzzle solution , but as you intimate , '' So many '' possible solution...in keeping with the '' duplicitous '' Zodiac ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/9/2020 08:26:07 am

As an extra , on the Grizzly Island reference , in the original story of ''Psycho'', it is well known locally for its '' hunting , shooting , fishing '' , and traditional Wild Pig Hunts , in particular .

'' Wild Pig Hunt '' might hold some appeal , to the warped humour of the Zodiac , when baiting the cops ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/9/2020 01:17:01 am

And , just to keep abreast with the unknown man , who impersonated WJGrant , with library habits at the JFK Library , Vallejo , and the Civic Centre Library , Fairfield :

JFK Library , Vallejo :

Monday , December 22nd 1969 :

The unknown man checks in a Mikado Double LP , so that he can continue to borrow it .

Then :

Tuesday , March 17th 1970 :

The unknown man hands in the Mikado Double LP , for good .

( The unknown man had already handed in David Kahn's Codebreakers book , for good , to the Civic Centre Library , Fairfield ,on August 20th 1969 . )

Roger

3/9/2020 01:26:29 am

Is it really that unusual for these killers and potential hoaxers to threaten the police? Manson and his followers made threats against many people, including the "pigs" as they called them. Due to street protests and the counterculture, a general anti-cop sentiment was very prevalent, especially among the young and disenchanted. I really do not see that "anti-cop" letters should be so unique that they must all be considered the sole domain of the Zodiac.

Richard

3/9/2020 03:08:46 am

That is true, threatening letters by people or hoaxers to police are not unique, but we only know of 4 suspected contacts by the Zodiac Killer between November 21st and December 19th 1969, and three imply an attack in San Jose - and all four purported to be from the Zodiac Killer in one month, two of which are undeniably the same author from Fairfield. There were many individuals and groups such as the Manson Family throwing around anti-police sentiment, but we are not talking about any random group, we are focusing in on the Zodiac Killer or Zodiac Killer hoaxers, attempting to pass themselves off as Zodiac. I understand your resevations Roger, but I will add that the December 16th letter and December 19th phone call attributed specific numbers to the amount of cops they wanted to kill, they didn't just say "I am going to kill a cop". The December 7th Fairfield letter did say this, but I think we can probably agree its author is without little doubt the same author as the December 16th letter, unless two independent authors just happened to mail letters from Fairfield with virtually identical handwriting, with a specific message to kill cops - and both had a cryptic component. I see it as a balance of probability, which is all we effectively have after 50 years. For me, an author asking for "help" on December 7th and mimicking Zodiac, followed by the authenticated Belli letter from Zodiac thrice asking for "help" inside of two weeks, especially when the December 7th letter was unpublished, is not compelling, but is fairly convincing. This could be two hoaxers playing into the October 22nd 1969 Jim Dunbar show, but we would have to conclude that nobody else did this for 50 days (as far as we know), then in December two people independently and without the knowledge of each other, both mimicked Zodiac and asked for "help" within 13 days of one another, and then fired off a third communication mimicking the other Fairfield letter, which had specific numbers given to the number of police they wanted to kill (unpublished), which then mimicked the December 19th payphone call just three days later. I go with the probability of one one perpetrator, rather than lots of lucky independent people.

Roger

3/9/2020 02:59:43 pm

I would also have to say that killers asking for help to stop them from killing is also not unique, and most hoaxers would be aware of that fact. It would be easy to jot off something believable like: "Help me, I am sick/insane, so you better catch me quick or it will be on your conscience." etc. etc. I would contend that the writing on the two Fairfield letters is indeed the same, but definitely NOT the same as handwriting as the other Zodiac letters. This strongly suggests that the Fairfield letters were the work of a hoaxer. You are right however when you suggest the possible Zodiac-Riverside connection was not made public until November of 1970. It was not until March 13, 1971 that the Zodiac Killer penned a letter to the Los Angeles Times in which he would claim responsibility for the murder of Bates, stating: "I do have to give [the police] credit for stumbling across my Riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones. There are a hell of a lot more down there." This letter does show good similarities to the earlier Zodiac letters, but to my eyes the Fairfield letters do not. There is a distinct change in style and composition with them and they appear to me to be a clumsy effort at a hoax.

Roger

3/9/2020 03:07:52 pm

Fairfield letters are the same author as these letters in my opinion, and not Zodiac. Handwriting is a very good match! this was someone who had a higher agenda (political/Government). It was not the Zodiac.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/get-carter-letter

Richard

3/9/2020 03:38:55 pm

I will therefore ask you an honest question. I could easily have crafted a few sentences of Zodiac writing, but certainly could have copied the ciphers in a structured and organised way. The Fairfield author (if hoaxer) could have easily created both of the short codes in a bold, neat and structured way. This is what I would expect a hoaxer to do, if he was trying to convince us he was Zodiac. I would also have posted both with double stamps and mailed them from San Francisco. But this hoaxer did none of this. That means [1] he was the laziest hoaxer ever (so why bother in the first place), or [2] He was the Zodiac Killer and wasn't trying to imitate himself. The communications may have been scribbled in haste. The 1978 letter was labelled a hoax because it looked too much like a Zodiac letter, roundly perceived as being traced. If a Zodiac letter looks different to the perceived handwriting model, it's a hoaxer. If it's too similar after many years, it is also a hoax. We know nothing of how quickly he wrote each letter, on what surface, with what writing implement, whether he was at a desk or in his vehicle, yet we all (including me) makes the unwarranted assumption all things are equal at the time of writing. I do understand your reservations regarding the Fairfield letters (and you are in the majority), but on these two letters we obviously diasgree. For me, their connectivity to the Halloween card, in accompaniment to the Belli letter, November 21st letter and phone call is why I draw the conclusions I do, not handwriting alone.

Regarding the November 1970 reveal by Avery, isn't it odd he probably insinuated his involvement in the Radetich murder almost immediately, but waited 4 months to link himself to Kathleen Johns, 6 months to link himself to Donna Lass and 4 months to claim his involvement in Riverside. After being almost instantaneously dismissed as the killer of Radetich, don't you think his long gaps in claiming the other murders was done to somehow add credence to his claims. Laying claim immediately to the latter three crimes would have given police the impression of a bragging Zodiac just claiming everything, but by holding off for an extended period in the Zodiac's mind may dispel this notion, and thereby somehow lend credence to his claims. It's not like the Zodiac hadn't read the article by Avery in November, so was this his tactic, or was he away from the Bay Area during these periods.

Roger

3/9/2020 03:46:15 pm

I doubt if anyone can answer those question satisfactorily, given our limited information. I am going by handwriting alone and would contend that the hoaxer made a rather lazy attempt. The other option is it was the Zodiac and he was deliberately trying to write in a different style in order to cause doubt about the authenticity, but why would he feel the need to do so? Most likely scenario is the writer was not the Zodiac and was indeed very lazy.

Roger

3/9/2020 02:01:06 am

This is interesting. The code is too small to make sense of unless I run it as a repeating code in crytpo software, in which case I get this: LANDALLANDALLANDALLANDALLANDALLANDAL

It is an obfuscated name: "ALLAN LAND".

The only Allan Land I know of from that time was a radio and TV broadcasting executive, who also purchased the films. He was president and general manager of many companies throughout America. Download this PDF and check out how many times you get a hit when you search for his name. I am not sure if he had any interests in California, but this would not surprise me given that California was the movie capital.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1960/1960-BC-YB.pdf

3/9/2020 12:42:05 pm

Richard - is this right - this idea that the Zodiac was influenced by what he read - was it a real thing. Just like his deeds effecting writers. Starting in the prudish 50's comics were blamed for the corruption of teenagers. The puritanical groups pushed the idea that comics were subverting the youth.

"On October 9, 1955 the Los Angeles, California-based television network KTTV aired Confidential File: Horror Comic Books. A “factual” report presented by newscaster Paul Coates, the 25-minute broadcast purported to not only uncover the shocking truth of horror comics, but depict explicit the threat that they posed to future generations of the United States."

http://cbldf.org/2016/02/1955-broadcast-brought-dangers-of-comics-to-your-living-room/

It could be the case that this notion of the words of one - being the blame for the actions of another - is a true thing. The proof that comics did influence some people is seen in the actions of the Zodiac. He clearly used what he learned from them to perform his many evil deeds.

And, as you say he did at-least take credit for the murders of the two little girls that occurred in August 1969. This was done in the Dripping Pen mention of Des (LHR) July(BRS) Aug(The Snoozy and Furlong murders in San Jose) Sep(LB) and Oct(Paul Stine)=7

Richard

3/9/2020 02:04:45 pm

It is rather a ridiculous notion that reading comics and playing video games turns ordinary people into killers. But there is little doubt that already mentally disturbed individuals can take it upon themselves to adopt or simulate something they have read or watched. I played video games and read comics, but after putting down the console, not once did I think of popping out to murder or fight someone. However, someone who is not of stable mind could be influenced to act upon such a thing. The idea that comics/video games/lack of God corrupt the youth, is often peddled on TV after mass shootings in America. This is obviously done to deflect the issue from the real problem. And we know who funds the major news channels.
The bottom line is Zodiac would have killed regardless of comics or movies, however, an access to firearms just made his task far more easier. I don't want to ignite the tired old gun debate, but I can guarantee you, the knife or gun turns a fair fight into a particularly unfair one, especially for cowards like serial killers. These people generally have one thing in common - they prey on the weak.

The words of people will always affect the actions of others. You see that in the xenophobia stoked up by politicians in various countries, but if you are strong principled in a good way and understand why they do it, you will reject racism at every turn. However, already prejudiced individuals will just become emboldened by the rhetoric of others. Some people are just easily led and dangerous government rhetoric can have serious consequences in the real world, including murder. But these individuals are not normal in the first place.

I have no doubt Zodiac was influenced by something to don his Berryessa costume. I have no doubt the Tim Holt comic book inspired his writings. But did comics create this monster - NO.

Richard

3/9/2020 02:28:03 pm

Furthermore BB, the puritanical groups often claim the moral high ground, claiming pornography, video games and comics are corrupting the youth, while pushing hatred of homosexuality and intolerance of other religions and creeds. Hypocrisy knows no bounds for these vile individuals. I have no prejudice towards religious people, skin colour or sexuality, but I once watched a British television chat show where a black woman of heavy religious beliefs saying cruel and insulting comments towards another guest, who was a homosexual. Of all people, this woman should have known how prejudice affects her and the wider society, but while no doubt this was unacceptable when aimed at the black community, it was perfectly acceptable for her to want gay people maligned and marginalized based on her religious beliefs. Hiding behind such disgusting puritanical beliefs, makes me totally unsympathetic when she (as an individual) is equally targeted by prejudiced people. If you give hate, expect to receive it.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/10/2020 12:57:18 am

Roger has made the '' entirely pertinent '' point that the Fairfield letters look a bit different in presentation , from some of the Zodiac's correspondences , that were ratified as '' confirmed '' .

Although I personally think that they are 99% authentic Zodiac , it has got me thinking about when did the Zodiac really , on perception , make an extra effort to be '' neat and tidy '' in his correspondence presentation ?

Well , I think most would be agreed that some extra effort was made with his Belli Letter .The Halloween Card also ( ? ) . The Exorcist Letter was quite neat , and the '' Count Marco '' Letter had much attention paid to style of writing .

But , the Zodiac could be '' all over the place '' on consistency of attention paid to being '' neat and tidy '' , with his '' confirmed correspondences , alone.....not least embracing both '' confirmed '' and '' unconfirmed '' correspondences , as a '' job lot '' .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/10/2020 01:12:58 am

And further to my comments , does anyone know if fine surgeon's rubber gloves , were readily available , 50 years ago .

It is certainly possible , if not likely that '' finished product '' correspondences saw the Zodiac attempting to minimize the chances of leaving prints behind .

Is it possible that the Zodiac simply employed '' washing-up '' kitchen sink gloves , for many of his correspondences ( ? ) .

3/10/2020 11:25:06 am

Rubislaw 32

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264096845_A_study_on_oil-contaminated_fingerprints_developing

I think if the perp had motoroil residue on his hands it could chemically effect his prints.

The first disposable latex medical gloves were manufactured in 1964 by Ansell. Wikipedia

Rubislaw 32 link

3/10/2020 02:37:49 pm

Thanks for the 1964 date BB .

It's a tricky one to decide how he went about constructing his correspondences ( ? ) . And , if he always applied the same techniques . There are certain habits that he seemed to always keep to , like military straight left-hand margins .

But , to what extent his sometimes '' scruffy '' presentations were contrived , seems to remain a mystery .

Roger

3/10/2020 02:51:44 pm

Rubislaw, do you think any of the Zodiac communication that Richard has presented on his blog to date were hoaxes, or do you contend they all came from the one person, being the Zodiac killer?

I note that in some places you seem to imply that the FBI had a hand in writing some communications, but then you suggest they were definitely written by the Zodiac killer. Sorry for saying this, but you are often less than clear about what you truly believe to be from the Zodiac, the FBI, or a potential hoax. So please forgive me if I have ever been confused. I really cannot understand why the FBI would resort to faking Zodiac letters, unless this was an attempt to flush him out and correct them on details. I personally do not buy into that scenario at all.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/10/2020 04:02:49 pm

I certainly get the gist of your enquiry , Roger , and I would have to go through every single one , for there were different reasons at given times for sometime intervention by , a combination of criminologists at the CA DOJ ( overall strategy ) and those that did the intervention ( the FBI's counter-intelligence ).

The main reason , I believe , for the five correspondences , leading up to the Belli letter , being hidden for many years and , never attaining official confirmation status was , that it was the four weeks leading into Christmas 1969 , and pressure was brought to bear on not dissuading shoppers and tourists from visiting San Francisco .

Whereas , it does appear that there was '' jiggery pokery '' going on with all four confirmed 1974 letters , largely to embarrass and keep the Zodiac '' off balance '' .

Of all the well known '' unconfirmed '' correspondences , I think that most are by the hand of the Zodiac since , these are actually the '' creme de la creme '' of uncertainties....with probably thousands of rejects '' languishing '' at Quantico vaults , categorized nonetheless , under '' Archive Extortion '' .

Richard

3/10/2020 04:08:50 pm

I know Rubislaw and I disagree on the 1987 letter, as well as the 1974 letters - so that is 5.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/10/2020 04:40:56 pm

Just to add , on the matter of ciphers / cryptograms , any in the public domain now , I believe to be the work of the Zodiac . I've been through them all , and have even offered the Cryptanalysis Unit , to solve Scorpion's S2 , S 3 and S4 , which we have yet to see .

The one exception perhaps is the '' flag / totem pole '' cipher , from circa 1996 and , probably the Zodiac's last cryptographic offering . I believe it to be the work of the Zodiac...but the various writing surrounding it , with a misquote of Edgar Allan Poe '' might '' be Heriberto Seda's , which has been superimposed , by the FBI's counter-intelligence .

3/11/2020 02:00:38 pm

Timeline San Francisco 1960-1969

https://timelines.ws/cities/SF_D_1960_1969.HTML

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 03:22:17 am

Hi Richard .

I was just checking the Death Wheel , as belonging to Tim Holt Comics # 30 , from 1952 .

About two years ago a comments contributor , at your site , was pointing at the possibility that the aspects to the Death Wheel ( By Knife , By Fire etc. ) were referred to , in a Life magazine article , which might , if serves memory , go back to June / July 1944 ( ? ) .

Do you remember the topic . and comments ?

The '' inference '' only , and as might be suggested is , that the concept of '' The Death Wheel '' might have roots going much further , than we have previously thought....and that such publications as the Tim Holt Comic , are simply picking up , on an older idea ....not so different , perhaps , to an illusionist's stage prop .

Richard

3/12/2020 03:39:49 am

No I don't remember it Rubislaw, but if you could find the Life magazine article that would be well worth viewing.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 04:06:42 am

I'll try and pinpoint it on your '' Zodiac News Archives '' , Richard .

One of those comments , that could wait , in the checking up of ( ? ) .

But , seems to acquire greater importance , once thought about again .

It doesn't necessarily mean that the Zodiac didn't first become influenced by the Tim Holt comic Wheel , but if the Life magazine article cam be pinpointed , then other possibilities of influence emerge ( ? ) .

Often is the case traditionally , that parents kept a few historically related mementos , when a child was born....to go with , such items as confirmation presents , first pacifier etc.

The Zodiac probably did come across the Tim Holt comic , in childhood . But ,it could be where he '' first '' saw it , that might have greater significance . If , for example , he was allowed access to his '' birth mementos '' ( ? ) .

If the Life magazine article , is genuine , then it could indicate when the Zodiac was born.....June / July 1944 , for example ( ? ) .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 09:06:13 am

I have managed to retrieve a reference , Richard , with the contributor , '' My name is mine '' suggesting that , possibly , the Tim Holt comic was influenced by two Mafia hoodlums :

Louis Lepke Buchalter , who destroyed 11 men , by Gun , Knife and Fire .

'' Pittsburg Phil '' whose crimes were by Gun , Rope and Ice pick .

Life Magazine February 28th 1944 , Page 86 .

If that magazine can be retrieved , it might be at least worth looking through the rest of the magazine ( ? ) .

Richard

3/12/2020 11:10:24 am

Yes, that is nothing new Rubislaw (I've heard this story before}, and certainly didn't influence the Tim Holt comic death wheel, because that edition was simply based on the Rota Fortunae. The comic mentions King Solomon and the Djinn. The fact these mafia men killed by these methods is about all that can be linked. They weren't unusual in the annals of history.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 11:13:46 am

Louis Lepke Buchalter was responsible for starting a '' contact killing '' company , known as '' Murder , Inc. '' , which employed about 250 hit men . At one time his company's annual turnover was estimated to be $ 19 million , in today's money . Buchalter went to the electric chair , on March 4th 1944 .

Harry '' Pittsburg Phil '' Strauss was probably Buchalter's most prolific employee , and believed to have murdered between 100 and 500 people , on contract . Strauss went to the electric chair , in 1941 .
Perhaps these men's exploits became frequently written about , in terms of '' By Gun , By Knife ...'' etc. ( ? ) . And so their infamy influenced such entities of fiction , like The Death Wheel .

3/12/2020 11:20:35 am

Best of the West (1951 A-1 Comics) comic books

https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=328431

Tim Holt is one of these Four horsemen

I got this while researching Earl Van Best Jr.. The face of the Zodiac Killer seems like he would look best like Best. But, Best died in 1984. And though revenge on Paul Avery for the article on Best's Ice Creme Romance would be a logical motive for murder. Why not just kill Paul? Instead of giving him fame with never-ending fodder to write about by killing so many other innocent people. That, and we are also quite sure the Zodiac had to live to at least Jan.10, 2001. This does tend to prove Best is not our cipher killer.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 12:02:37 pm

Yes , that 1984 year for Best's death , leaves him as a '' non-starter '' , for many , BB .

After a year of digesting the 2001 New Year's Card , and all the examination we did here , at Richard's site , I think most would not reject the card , '' out of hand '' ( ? ) ,with many finding the card , all too persuading , now .

This kicks out a lot of the '' usual suspects '' , including those incarcerated , if not actually deceased by then , like Ted K .

Just be nice to see all of that 2001 missive....looks like the presumed Zodiac had at least another page of writing , or a puzzle or picture ,even , enclosed ( ? ).

The FBI / CA DOJ might be enjoying the agony that they are putting us through ( ? ) .I'm close to spilling some beans with bereaved of victims , having made sure that '' some '' politicians are aware of '' some '' events that have taken place .

Departments of Justice are supposed to serve the public's interests . Often it seems , that they merely serve their own .

Roger

3/12/2020 03:57:37 pm

"The fact these mafia men killed by these methods is about all that can be linked. They weren't unusual in the annals of history."

Exactly the reason why I do not think the 2001 card was the work of the Zodiac. Anybody could have sent this letter. Sounds to me like the work of some 70+ year old "Abe Simpson" who had an axe to grind against foreigners "taking our jobs". How many of them would be around? Oh, only like 50,000 or more in the Bay area alone! The more elderly and wound up, the more shaky the handwriting too. Zodiac, several million to one chance, which would put it in the category of "plausible but very unlikely"! The card would never stand up in a court of law unless Zodiac is ever caught and admits to writing it, or if he licked the stamp or envelope and his DNA can be linked to it, otherwise it is basically useless as far as evidence goes.

Roger

3/12/2020 04:15:19 pm

Sometimes the Muni drivers are the ones who are rude, racist, offensive, and obnoxious too. So is this guy also a potential "Zodiac"? The cops had better get a handwriting sample from him a.s.a.p., especially if he is in the habit of posting New Years cards! LOL!

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/video/3397804-muni-drivers-racist-rant-caught-on-camera/

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 04:43:32 pm

Here's a little handwriting journey , for any takers ( ? ) :

Compare :

i ) D B Cooper's letter to The Oregonian , December 3rd 1971 (...$200,000 is for revolution...)

to :

ii ) Assassination Scoop letter to the Miami Herald , August 23rd 1970 ( from The Society for the Constitution and a patriotic America ) Spiro Agnew FBI File 8 , Pages 4,5,6,7.

Then :

Examine the Zodiac's Bus Bomb Envelope , November 9th 1969 .

Similarities ?

Roger

3/12/2020 04:58:11 pm

No match at all, not even close. Handwriting came from three different people in all three cases.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 05:45:01 pm

A 5 year old would confirm a match between '' D B Cooper '' and '' The Society for the Constitution and a patriotic America ''.

The Zodiac could be a more difficult proposition .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 04:50:50 pm

If i ) and ii ) aren't by the same hand , then , as the Gykers say : '' I'll eat my hat . ''

The Zodiac's Bus Bomb Envelope may be optional , on the basis of discretion .

Roger

3/12/2020 04:59:07 pm

Do you require sauce with that? I can supply. :-)

Rubislaw 32 link

3/12/2020 05:35:10 pm

The FBI closed down D B Cooper investigations in 2016 . I would suggest , and from where I have been investigating that , the FBI are happy to sort out the rest of him / It , from behind a desk .

'' Daytona '' a pilgrimage holiday , for petrolhead / motorhead Zodiac , with a spot of extortion , in his spare time ?

Possibly .

3/12/2020 06:33:07 pm

Roger - Nothing will work to prove Zodiac in a court of Law I agree. Also, now-a-days the evidence has been so
contaminated/convoluted/denuded/eroded/obfuscated/corrupted/stolen/manufactured/distorted/hidden/taken home and exposed to the elements to be too faded. But, the goal is not to get the Zodiac put away. It's to expose him.
Law Enforcement may already know him. They may be waiting for that proverbial smoking gun to land in their lap. But, that will never happen. The DNA is just enough to eliminate suspects. From what I can tell. Not enough to I.D. anyone. As for the the 2001 card. The proof that it is the Zodiac is divulged through the reasoning process. If you remember in your statistics 101 class the concept of the - If this then that logic - Take the fact that if the murderer of Ray Davis said in 1962 he is going to kill bus drivers. Who, other than the initial caller, would have known about the original message? A dirty cop. I suppose that is possible but plausible. Is it pure coincidence that some man uses the same lingo that ends with a death threat of bus drivers 39 years later? It is possible but...highly unlikely. All we have is our reasoning. And since the evidence is crap - we have to go for the probable over the possible. Is it possible that space aliens have come to earth at some time. Yes, it's possible. But is it plausible? No. If left with that choice which do you choose? Of course only insane people choose the possible. The sane choose plausible.
Did some one in 2001 remember an article from 1962 and then write a New Years card to only be exposed years later? It is possible, I suppose but.... not at all likely. I get how you want better evidence than some old guys blabbing on about this or that likelihood of some old forensics. But, this often is all we got to work-with pal. Peace

Rubislaw 32 link

3/13/2020 02:01:09 am

In the last two years , I've paid more attention to the D B Cooper followers and forums , just to get an idea of how their '' following '' compares to the Zodiac case .

Easy to be patronising , but I have yet to find one of their followers , that can distinguish between , nor has the desire to attempt to distinguish between , the man who jumped out of a jet airliner , and the man that sent the letters .

When Karl Werner was arrested , because of suspicions that the man who murdered Snoozy , Furlong , and latterly Bilek '' may '' have been the Zodiac , the SFPD in particular , offered and gave the San Jose Police assistance , in '' processing '' Werner , right up to his conviction and sentencing , in September 1971 .

I think that , after the relief of putting Werner away for good , the SFPD and San Jose P. D. in particular , would have happily torn the Zodiac apart '' limb from limb '' , given half a chance .

The Zodiac knew that part of his game of deception , had been exposed , for any crime minded person to see....and time for him to leave his '' arena '' of terror .

As a compulsive hoaxer and '' small-time '' extortionist , the Zodiac is likely to have looked around for other '' recreation '' and , a man who jumped out of an aeroplane and probably killed himself , in doing so , may well have fitted the bill , nicely .

Richard

3/13/2020 03:30:55 am

I understand the reasoning behind the letter analysis in the DB Cooper case to argue for a Zodiac connection, but we equally have to be wary of wanting to forge new links. We saw this with the Golden State Killer and the burgeoning tendency to link the two cases. We all can be unsatisfied with the routine retelling of the Zodiac case (me included), but have to be careful about wanting to build extensions into the case to freshen it up, rather than what is true. I have reservations about the Oceanside connection based on a few threats to bus drivers and a taxicab murder, even though it is an interesting proposition. I also have reservations about concluding the 2001 and 1990 cards are Zodiac. It is impossible to currently connect these two correspondences with the Zodiac, although we can argue on the likelihood of them originating from the same author, but only from a percentage standpoint. Zodiac was certainly shown to be a fraud in his constant attempts to hold on to his claim he was responsible for the Snoozy/Furlong murders and may have sought pastures new - and while Zodiac metamorphosing into DB Cooper is a tantalizing prospect - is that all it is. Roger is not convinced that the 1990 and 2001 cards are Zodiac, which is exactly what I stated in the original article, quote "Here is a communication mailed to the San Francisco Chronicle on January 10th 2001 threatening the Muni drivers of San Francisco, widely believed to be somebody mimicking the Zodiac Killer. While this may be the case, one has to consider the style and format of the writing (particularly on the envelope) with respect to previous Zodiac communications". I tend to believe they were from the same author, without claiming it as fact, based upon the "901 Mission St" and "94103" additions on two greetings cards mailed unbeknonst to each other, at a time I imagine that Zodiac hoaxers were less prevalent than at the height of his campaign of terror. Putting the handwriting aside, these two features of "901 Mission St" and "94103" (as far as released Zodiac letters) had never been used on any genuine or suspected Zodiac communication previously, but at a time when even hoaxed Zodiac letters were more of a premium, we have two Xmas/New Year cards using an address format that a Zodiac hoaxer should not have used based on all the available envelopes currently on display. If I were a hoaxer attempting to mimic Zodiac, I would have forged the envelope using the style of previous Zodiac envelopes, not chosen a format that Zodiac had never used. That aside, we have seen based on your findings Rubislaw, how many letters in the FBI files from other cases look extremely similar to not only the Fairfield and McQueen letters, but to some Zodiac letters. The crossover is intriguing, but we have to be very careful with respect to all.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/13/2020 04:02:53 am

Contributors had this site , and Morf's certainly gave the 2001 New Years Card '' a good going over '' Richard...and yes , caution should always be acknowledged .

What we believe to know about the Zodiac , and if he remained alive , to the turn of the century , leads us to believe it unlikely that he would not have noted , and '' not '' allowed the death of his '' Secret Pal '' , Paul Avery....without marking it , in some way .

Is it likely that the public were '' slipped a dummy '' with the publication of the 2001 New Years Card , 15 months ago ? Not very .
It even looks as if Kevin Fagan put the card out , a week before originally scheduled , with the Diablo Valley note , signed '' -Z '' transpiring on the 12th of December .

A bad day to bury '' good '' news - I think so .

Fagan has slipped into becoming a fraud to the public , in the interests of the FBI and his editor . A sad way to treat the legacy of true investigative journalist and Zodiac legend , Paul Avery .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/13/2020 03:28:08 am

....The Zodiac would not have had to wait long , to put away his wounded and warped pride :

D B Cooper hijacking : November 24th 1971

The re-emergence of the Zodiac ? The Exorcist letter in January 1974 . Billowy waves and suicide graves .

SFPD - 0 , Me - 37 victims who were subjected to a hijacking

Where had the Zodiac been , in the interim ?

Well , I know where he was , for half that time - but that's another story....for now .

Richard

3/13/2020 03:55:08 am

There are many people Rubislaw who state they "know" who the Zodiac was, "know" what he was thinking and "know" where he was at various times. I will state for the record I "know" none of these because I was in Coventry, England in 1968/69 aged 6 years. Unless somebody was Zodiac or was personal friends with Zodiac, the best anybody can say is they strongly believe they know. But that is a personal belief, held by many hundreds (if not thousands) of Zodiac enthusiasts. Nobody, other than Zodiac himself, or somebody who was privy to his murderous rampage, could possibly claim to know anything with certainty. Strong belief is one thing, certainty is another.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/13/2020 04:16:02 am

There will always be a bit of mischievousness , to go along with the '' words between the lines of age '' , Richard .

Far worse things have been uttered ( ? )

The Zodiac , of course , was boning up on his French language , in the interim . More '' mischievousness '' ? Who is going to be brave enough to ask how it is the French franchise of MacDonalds recently benefited from an advertising promotions drive , influenced by the Zodiac's ciphers ( ? ) .

And , that is a small drop in the ocean , compared to the millions that the Hearst Corporation have been making , while everyone else , including the bereaved of victims waits on a possible '' 12th of Never ''.

Rubislaw 32 link

3/15/2020 07:52:46 pm

Just to let you know , Richard , that I contacted D B Cooper . com , and pointed out this letter to the Miami Herald ,from '' The Society for the Constitution and a Patriotic America '' .

I received an almost immediate and extensive reply from Tom Szollosi , who co-wrote the book '' The Last Master Outlaw '' . And all respect to Mr.Szollosi for this .

It may have been , because I mentioned the '' Z '' word ( ? ) . I received attachments for those letters that the FBI had found no usable forensics or where handwriting was inconclusive .

The Miami Herald letter didn't even get a mention from '' Tom '' as being entertained , in any way , even though it represents a missive sent 15 months , before the D B Cooper hijacking .

I suspect that a part , at least , of the D B Cooper fraternity want no mention of '' The Zodiac '' in any shape or form ( Lol...in an ironic sense ) . It does seem to be a case now of '' Robert Rickshaw '' or no one ,for D B Cooper's identity .

A ''closed shop '' on alternative suspects , that would make Mr.Voigt's site , with their obsession for '' Dicky Gyke '' , seem like liberal and entirely without bias ( !! ).

An intimidating experience , which I do not intend to repeat .

Rubislaw 32 link

3/15/2020 08:24:13 pm

.....yes , it was a feeling that I had just trespassed on to foreign soil , with warning shots fired overhead .

I suppose with Robert Rickshaw having died last July , and the D B Cooper case having been officially closed down ....then a suspect , such as the late Mr.Rickshaw can be protected from any chance of innocence as the famed skyjacker .

A protection of '' folklore '' now ( ? ).

Rubislaw 32 link

3/16/2020 02:40:16 am

On considering matters further , I think that I will hold on to the thought that '' The Society for the Constitution and a Patriotic America '' is a viable hoaxing letter , that can make a difference in investigations , if only to show that a possible '' D B Cooper hoaxer '' had other pseudonyms , even if no connection to the Zodiac .

This '' Assassination Scoop '' letter has much going for it , including of course , threats on the life of Nixon and Agnew and families , and the FBI have surely not forgotten about it , in its handwriting and extensive ( 4 pages ) form .

Coming from a case , such as the Zodiac's , with so many possible and probable correspondences , the D B Cooper case does appear a little bleak and narrow . They have even '' made up '' cracked codes , that don't actually appear to exist .

It really seems to be the physical actions of the real skyjacker , who called himself D B Cooper , which is the most exiting part .And , I would think it unlikely that , any follower of the Zodiac case , really believes that the Zodiac was that much of an action man , that he was also the person that jumped out of a jet airliner ( ? ) , even though he talked about '' Billowy waves and suicide graves '' in the Exorcist letter .

If this Zodiac case is not officially solved soon , then we could be observing a similar bleak prospect , as is seeming to have become the case of D B Cooper : One relatively small site remaining , which only talks about a journalist called Richard Gaikowski whom , the site protects fiercely , as having been the Zodiac and , can show all sorts of strange bits of paper and dodgy crime scene photos , to promote this '' folklore '' notion .

Perish the thought .

Roger

3/16/2020 03:29:02 pm

This is one of the reasons I stay away from the "big" Zodiac forums Rubislaw. Many years ago I became acutely aware that I was being force fed misinformation and distortions that were tailored towards making me believe in certain scenarios (i.e. Dicky Gyke). I could not believe how easily the beliefs of other forum members could be swayed by this "force feeding", and I found the "evidence" presented to be rather too subjective and forced.

BTW, I have a friend who is convinced of a DB Cooper/Zodiac connection. I however am not confident of such a connection. One was a thief/hijacker willing to leap out of a jet airliner at the risk of perishing. The Zodiac was a serial killer who was all too ground based. As you suggest, there are not a lot of similarities there, except perhaps for the "plunging into billowy waves and suicide graves" rehash from Gilbert and Sullivan. We could take this to be a possible metaphor relating to jumping from a plane, but I wonder why the Zodiac would not have wanted his infamy to live on as "the Zodiac", instead of suddenly transforming himself into the more humble sounding "D.B. Cooper". I guess we have to ask ourselves why a serial killer bent on keeping tallies of his victims would suddenly become obsessed with money and then, presuming he lived to boast about it, should suddenly find contentment. Money had never been a motivating factor for the Zodiac. Of course some mercenaries are "in it" for the money, and also, I am sure, some do indeed like the thrill of killing those they have been paid to kill. So the Zodiac could have come from a hired gun or mercenary background. But extorting money by hijacking a plane just doesn't fit easily with the MO of the Zodiac IMHO. It is a bit like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

BTW, they do have 66 latent prints of D.B. Cooper from the hijacked plane (flight crew and other passengers excluded), so surely by now somebody has done a comparison with the partials from the Zodiac case?

Rubislaw 32 link

3/16/2020 05:02:22 pm

Interesting and pertinent thoughts Roger .

Yes...never considered the Zodiac to actually have been D B Cooper . But possible he took the letter writing role of the man that probably died , jumping out of a jet airliner , into the black of the night , with a storm raging at 10,000 ft , and freezing conditions awaiting him , if landing in water .

The content of those letters , where a presumed D B Cooper had more than a few words to say , can seem quite '' Zodiac-esq '' at times...and certain words and phrases , '' I'm alive '' , '' Psych-pathic '' . and '' A rich man '' ,for example .

But , it seems that that which is left of the D B Cooper fraternity , are even in denial that there could have been '' one who jumped '' and '' one who wrote ''.

They seem to have a need for D B Cooper to have been an '' all round '' anti-hero .

Yes , the Zodiac never did want any money . Just perpetuating his notoriety seemed to make him happy ( ? ) .

I think that the Zodiac would have wanted to be a newspaper columnist . But then , he probably would like to have been a professional racing driver , also . All these expressions of his multi-talents in his letters . I think he had a reasonably well paid job , but probably found it , lacking in challenge , and a little dull .

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