BLACK MALE ADULT

7/11/2015

Alex Lewis drew my attention to the following subject, concerning the description of a 'black male adult' being passed in the immediate moments after the murder of Paul Stine on October 11th 1969 at Presidio Heights and pours huge doubt on this widely held narrative ever happening, for a number of reasons. Whether Officer Donald Fouke stopped or didn't stop a viable suspect on Jackson Street is not the issue, it is the fact that this suspect was either let on his way after being questioned, or having been spotted supposedly entering a stairwell at 3712 Jackson Street, this was then not followed up, even after supposedly being informed of the amended description. If a mystery man was spotted on Jackson Street, it almost becomes acceptable to have passed him, if Officer Donald Fouke was looking for a black male adult, however, if Donald Fouke was looking for a white male at that point, his actions would have been hard to explain and the story of the dispatcher giving out a false description seems to alleviate this error. It wouldn't be the first time police closed ranks to cover up an error.

Alex Lewis stated "I've said before that I really am sceptical of their claim of an incorrect NMA broadcast ever happening. Go back and look in the immediate post crime reports and nowhere will you find mention that the responding units had been given an initial incorrect suspect description. It's only when the Zodiac himself writes about a month after the incident 'PS 2 cops pulled a goof', do we hear the story of a Black Male description having been broadcast and when you think about it, isn't that exactly what you'd expect them to say after Zodiac has publicly 'rubbed their face in the boo-boo's'? I think it was damage limitation time for the SFPD after they read Zodiac had said he was stopped and spoken with. Imagine how the department would look if it were discovered they simply let a white guy walk away knowing the suspect was white? There's just no way they could admit this, as the public outcry would be unthinkable! So, if we simply say that we were told by some idiotic dispatcher (who, unlike Slover and Slaight) has never been named or identified that the suspect was black then this will save face and we can explain away why it was we never apprehended the white guy".

We have to believe that after the description given by the three teenagers of a white male adult, within seconds the dispatcher had incorrectly relayed a new description of a black male. It has been said that maybe the dispatcher misheard the teenagers or they were speaking quickly or frantically, but this is unlikely. When a dispatcher has a frantic or erratic call, they are often told to tell the person on the phone to take a deep breath and slow down, or if they didn't hear the person properly, to ask them to repeat the information. But somehow here, the error still occurred from this anonymous dispatcher. But that is not all. The teenagers rang in and described the suspect as a "white male, 5'8" in height, rimmed glasses, dark clothing, heavy build, reddish-blond hair and a crew cut". See here to view police report: http://www.zodiackiller.com/Stine.html. Well, the next logical step is for the dispatcher to pass this description in its entirety onto the police. It would make no sense to ignore the whole description and just pass on the part about a black male. So, if we take the claims at face value, the dispatcher incorrectly changed white male to black male. The description the dispatcher therefore sent out should have read "black male, 5'8" in height, rimmed glasses, dark clothing, heavy build, reddish-blond hair and a crew cut." and supposedly this made sense and was never questioned immediately. The late 1960's sported many hair cuts, but a black male with a reddish-blond crew cut sounds out of the ordinary, unless we are to believe only the skin color part of the description was relayed.

Then we have Donald Fouke, who despite spotting a white male on Jackson Street for only a few seconds as they passed him, was able to give a very detailed description of the suspect, despite the fact he was white and they were supposedly looking for a black male. His description was a "35-45 WMA, barrel- chested, medium complexion, wearing a waist length, navy or royal blue zipper type jacket with elastic at the waist, and on the cuffs, he had a crew cut, brown wool pleated trousers, baggy in rear, engineering type boots, tan in color, low cut shoe and wearing glasses. Not bad when your looking for a black male.

Now let us accept the widely held view that the description the police received was that of a "black male, 5'8" in height, rimmed glasses, dark clothing, heavy build, reddish-blond hair and a crew cut." As Officer Donald Fouke passed the suspect on Jackson Street, he notices it's a white male - but hang on - the entirety of the remaining description fits, down to the crew cut, glasses, clothing, weight and height - only the color of his skin is wrong. Surely this man was still worthy of questioning, which I believe is exactly what happened. He was questioned by Donald Fouke that night, but the premise that a description of a black man was sent over the airwaves, simply never took place.

Thanks to Alex Lewis: https://welshchappie.wordpress.com/

150 Comments

Alex

7/11/2015 01:22:04 am

Thanks Rich for presenting something I have long suspect to be true.

But I think I know what readers who don't have an intimate Knowledge of this case will instantly be thinking when they read the above is: "Why the hell would cops let a white guy go if they knew that was they were looking for a White guy?" Here's the very likel answer about that white guy's identity that is not widely known to the general, passing observer.

Armond Pelissetti in the documentary made a passing reference to his encountering a white guy at or on Maple Street. A.P claims publically this guy was 'Walking his dog' and He says he asked that gentleman had he seen anyone go by in the area and He says the 'dog walker' responded 'No.' Now armond publically gives his reason for dismissing the guy as not being the suspect as "He was somewhat older than the description I had, A whole lot thinner, and He had absolutely no blood on his cloths."
Well, ask Mike Butterfield what Armond told him over the phone, a conversation that was 'Accidentally recorded.' Armond tell's Mike that actually the guy did not have a dog with him, and he wasnt on the side walk either but was actually, at the time Aromond see's him, on the driveway of a property at or near the intersection of Jackson and Maple and that, quote "He wasn't doing anything at all, He was just standing there on the driveway. I called that guy over and kept him around for a while keeping a close on him." Coincidentally, what Armond admits to asking this white male He see's on the night is almost exactly what the Zodiac would later claim that the Cop had asked him also after calling him over. Hmmm.

Now people will be asking "Why would a cop lie, why would he say the man had a dog if he didn't? does not make sense."
It does when you know that man was standing there on that drive. Now Richard is a very respectful author and doesn't like to advocate any one as suspect over any other (I think that is fair to say Rich isn't it? If I am wrong mate then I am sure you'll tell me as such). I myself am not as polite as Richard (Sly Grin) and so I will name the mystery man with a dog who didn't have a dog that was on the sidewalk and Driveway of a house as a man by the name of: Kjell Qvale.

If that name rings a bell it's likely because Kjell was a known not just throughout the Bay area, but the World over as a massively successful busniessman with numerous busniesses, the most well known being British Motors, a import vehicle sales comapny He founded in 1947. Kjell was even a member of The Bohemian Club that could boast Richard Nixon and Ronald Regan as Kjells fellow club members.

So, what is it I am getting at? Well:

Don Fouke's Mystery white Guy is the same mystery white Guy Armond See's and speaks with Kjell Qvale. The reason Don lets this white guy go is because He knows it's Kjell, who lives ne block away from Washington & Cherry St. Now before anyone suggests that I am implying they let kjell go because He's too powerful and above the law, that is not at all why I believe they allowed him to go. I think they likely allowed Kjell to go because this is minutes after the crime and nobody has eve the slightest reasons to susepct Zodiac is responsible for the homicide and whoever is responsible appears to have taken the drivers wallet which, to any cop arriving on scene, clearly gives the motive for this crime to be robbery. So, put yourself in Officer Fouke and/or Pelissetti's shoes for a moment, they are looking for a man who clearly has no money and is desperate enough to shoot and kill a cabbie and elope with a massive "Couple of dollars." Well, running into Multi Millionaire Mansion Owner and Business supremeo Kjell Qvale it is logical that they simply assumed, as would I and most people, Kjell is not going to be our suspect. Kjell has need to steal cash from a cabbie and kill him for a few dollars, Kjell has money coming out of his ears. So, that there, that very assumption they made is why they let him go in my opinion.

The true motive behind this crime was not to rob the driver of money but to rob him of his life. It was a murder for the sake of murdering and was staged by the killer to simply appear to be a bothched robbery. Well if you take theft off the table as an MO then the suspect now could be anyone, maybe even Qvale! But see, now they know this. . .It's too late. Then they have to backtrack and try and come up with a reason why the let Kjell, or 'Unknown White Male' as they like to call him, walk away so they came up with dispatcher being backwards and giving out 'BLACK' after hearing 'WHITE.'

Don stopped and spoke to him, and why is denying doing so? Because if he admitts to stopping, calling over and speaking with the guy, then He knows that if it ever became known that the guy was Qvale, then we cynical people would raise an eyebrow and ask sarcastically "You spoke to him up close and had no Idea who He was and that it was Mr Qvale you were speaking

Alex

7/11/2015 01:41:40 am

And another circumstantial reason for Don to simply have to have known that it was A White Male he was looking for is the fact that He had admitted to last seeing this white male turn and approach the front door of a residence. Now He claims at the specific moment he saw this white man turn onto the steps and approach the residence of 3712 Jackson Street that He was under the assumption the suspect was black, and it that it was not untill a whole 20, mabe 30 seconds later that He gets the updated description from Armond Pelissetti that the suspect is White. Ok, lets say we believe Him just for a moment. Now that He knows the suspect is not black, but white, with galsses and a crew cut, a description that matches perfectly the guy he not 20 seconds ago has driven past who He observed turn onto the property, what is the next thing that we would all think Don should immediately, without any delay, do? Yep, He should so floor the accelerartor and speed back to 3712 and call for backup as the suspect is probably hiding on the grounds, or worse still, in the home itself holding the occupants at gunpoint. That is the only thing you can, and have to do! But not Don, He decides to misdirect his fellow Patrol Officers onto west pacific avenue to run around in darkness kicking bushes and shaking trees hoping that a suspect may fall out of one. No chance that happened at all, not a chance in hell in my opinion.

Alex

7/11/2015 02:10:20 am

Don did not misdirect the search with deliberate or sinister intent, I think, and this is just my opinion, that He did not direct anyone nor go speeding back to 3712 himself because he knew that the guy He just spoke with who turned onto that property was Qvale and obviously, he is simply not the suspect that we want in a cabbie slaying in the course of a robbery for a few dollars. Don said He did not even thin k about the encounter with this guy in his report and, why would He? If He knows it is Qvale that turns onto that house drive then what is he saying is "I didn't report this encounter and seeing the guy turn toward the house because it was Mr Qvale, and because it was him, He was not someone we'd even consider viable nor would have the motive so because I did not think could possibly be involved, I didn't think nor report it. It was not relevant."

Robin Smith

7/11/2015 02:40:04 am

The Aunt of Ed Edwards, Beatrice Bellet worked at O'Doules Bar on the corner of Mason and Geary- lived in Presidio Heights a couple of blocks from the Stein murder.

Aunt Bea had told EWE(Deer Lodge Montana) to get out of the cab a couple of blocks from her house as she lived in a good neighborhood and people knew of his "Edwards" prison time.

Since his MO was misdirection and framing innocents up to and including planting DNA (Cold Case Cameron details his activities).

Several posts at PEEK THROUGH THE PINES.

Larry Kane liked to 'hang" out and plan his nefarious capers in bars.

We kN0w for a fact that Larry Kane knew Kjell Qvale and Robert E Hunter Jr. and Paul Stine.

Alex Lewis

7/18/2015 05:53:31 am

I have often wondered why Chief of Inspectors Martin Lee stated that He/They have reason to believe that Zodiac is a latent Homosexual. ow this comment, the last time I posted it, had a response seeming to suggest I was being homophobic and that is in no way true or accurate. The fact is, that is what the Chief said about Zodiac and did so publicly in the SF Chronicle so please, I hope nobody misinterprets this as me saying anything of a homophobic nature.

So, why would the Chief say this? Well there is mention that they based this on the type of stab pattern He stabbed his victims with at Lake B. Thats always kinda baffled me, how can one stab another in a pattern that shows possible homosexuality? But, that's what they said.

I wonder, just on the off chance that they were referring to this: https://youtu.be/HL6cxGg6yas

Kjell was a member of the All Male Club after all. Is this their reason to believe and to justify such a comment as 'Possibly a latent Homosexual? Here's 'Stuff they don't want you to know - Bohemian Grove' take on this Secret Society Club of the elite: https://youtu.be/ead8hRjqVyg

Richard

7/11/2015 02:25:32 am

The other option is Don stops Zodiac, but Zodiac said "there was this man who was running by waving a gun." Since they were looking for a suspect, fearing the worst, they took his word for it, eager to apprehend the suspect and protect the public, they 'peeled rubber', only to realize later they had been duped. But this would look bad in the report, hence the 'black male' story.

Alex Lewis

7/13/2015 12:55:37 am

Hey Rich I know I am going slightly off subject here but I'm quite excited by the recent events that are happening. As I told you via email recently, I had asked Destry (Harvey Hines Son) if and when He had an hour or two spare could He get hold of the documents, all or in part, that His Father had collected on Lawrence and/or Zodiac. As you know, I was contacted a few days ago by Harvey Hines Brother, Oliver. Well, I'll copy for you here just a snippet of the email He sent me this morning:

"Harvey and I were police officers together in Jerome, Idaho for approximately a year. He and I spent many hours talking about Kane being the Zodiac. I got to go with him on a dig looking for Donna Lass' body."

He has, as I said in the initial email, come across copies of the files and documents that Harvey had ammased over the years. I haven't seen them yet Rich but I think you and may assume that due to both Harvey and his Brothers capacity as Law Enforcement Officers, these documents will be official files from official sources as Harvey had access to databases etc that the average Joe doesn't.

Anyway Rich, I'll keep you updated by email and when Oliver sends me the documents I'll send them on to you and you can use them as you see fit mate.
Speak Soon.

Richard

7/13/2015 02:16:32 am

If you do receive them, ask if it's ok to make them visible on your or my site. I would only do so with permission. Cheers Alex.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 11:34:30 pm

No I think if Z walked in to SFPD HQ and informed the officer at the desk "Morning Officer, I believe I may have a warrant out for my arrest so I have come to hand myself in." The cop would then ask "What's the name please Sir and what are you wanted on warrant for?" White haired guy then would say "The name is, San Francisco Zodiac Killer, and the warrant and/or charges against me are 5 counts of Homicide." Cop would look up at him with anger and blast "Sir, I am going to say this once, get out of my station now or I shall Arrest you for making a false report and/or allegation and wasting police time."

If Zodiac attempted to then confess via phone He'd get through to SFPD Homicide Division and say "Hi, I am calling to confess to being the Zodiac Killer and......" This is far as He would get before being cut off mid speech with "Ok Hold on 1 second Sir I just need to transfer you to a Detective who can arrange a formal statement to be taken so I'll just pop you on hold for 5 or 6 years until a Detective becomes available, thank you, Bye."

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 11:42:43 pm

They could escort him out of the Police Station and as they walk back inside notice the gentleman that is psychotic and delusional believing himself to be Zodiac has actually dropped his drivers licence in the Reception Area. The cop would Pick it up and read the name aloud to his colleague "Mr Paul Lee Stine, Lives on Fell St, is He known to us Sgt do you know? It's Paul Stine, S-T-I-N-E? Never heard of him either? Must be a harmless kook then I would Imagine. Anyway I'm going to go catch up with Mr Stine and return his Licence to him. Watch the desk would you for 2 minutes......M STINEEEE, SIR! YOUR LICENCE SIR, YOU DROPPED IT IN THE STATION."

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 05:17:49 am

Rich I just though of something that I can't believe I haven't seen up to now. Don claims to encounter a white guy who He denies speaking with but from what I've seen in reports, ie, Toschi admitting over the phone that Fouke did stop and speak to a white guy, Armond confirming this etc etc, I think He very likely did. So, let's assume this is the case and Don did stop Zodiac and ask Had he seen anyone and Zodiac, as He said He did, replied with "Yes, a man just went running by waving a gun." Well, this is flawed and not likely at all and here's why. Zodiac said He told cops that a man went running by waving a gun and He pointed them to an area where they peeled rubber to. So if this scenario were correct, then even though the offender had left the scene and is reported walking down Cherry and away from the cab, Don Fouke's 'witness' is claiming that a man with a gun ran by and must have done so going up Jackson Street because this white guy is going down Jackson and points them back uphill. Fouke doesn't instantly wonder "Hang on, the crime is around that corner, what, or more accurately, how the hell is the shooter now running uphill back toward the scene itself?" Scenario A therefore, can be discounted.
Scenario B. The claim here is almost exactly as the one above but differs in that it is said Zodiac replied with "Yes, a man with a gun just ran into the Presidio." And this sees cops peel rubber uphill. Well, the majority assume Z was heading for the Presidio himself, so what we would have to believe here now is that Zodiac directs the units around onto West Pacific knowing that He himself is going to duck through the Presidio Wall on Maple and drop onto West Pacific and do so just as Don is speeding down the very same road and it's "Oh Hello there, we must stop meeting like this" scenario. Likely? Nope. There is one more scenario and I think it seems to fit well, coming soon!

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 05:34:38 am

See here's what I think. The white male on Jackson was The Zodiac. The Zodiac did briefly stop and speak with Eric and Don. Zodiac specifically told Don "Yes, A Man with a gun just ran into the Presidio" and it was because of this very statement that Don and the others end up searching the Grounds of the Presidio and not because they had last observed the suspect going North on Maple because we now know this was not the last place He was seen.
So, again, if the offender is heading for the Presidio as his pre-planned escape route, then there is no way on Earth He would get stopped on Jackson and tell cops, before He even has chance to get there, that the suspect is in the Presidio. And yet, He does say this and simply has to have because in Crime of the Century the cops version is, in my opinion, much closer to the truth of what happened.
Armond says, Quote: "The other unit stopped someone and asked had they seen anyone. The person said 'Yes, A man just ran into the presidio." Don doesn't admit this encounter but says He and Eric drove up Jackson and, ignoring Cherry St, continue on to Aguello Blvd and as they get there they claim the description of suspect was changed to White Male and they proceeded onto West Pacific believing that they white guy they just passed was possibly their suspect. I believe their never was an updated description because the description was never given in error to begin with and the reason Don proceeded directly to to West Pacific was because His witness, The helpful Zodiac, had given him false information. I think Fouke probably does run into Armond but it's not on Cherry st, but at or very near to Cherry & Jackson Intersection.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 05:58:54 am

So, if it were to be the case that Zodiac directed them to the Presido Himself, which I contend He absolutely did do because Don did not dash there because He'd last observed a white male going down Maple and we know this now for sure, then it has to be the case, surely, that Zodiac neither had any intent, nor was He anywhere in the grounds of this very place He'd directed the SFPD around onto. He was last seen on the street turning down a pathway of a home, and they dashed around onto West Pacific and yet wherever He was, He observed their searching the Presidio. This, for me, leans greatly toward the idea that He was either in a premises or the back year of one on Jackson St and never was, as Chief Lee stated, anywhere near the Presidio.

Richard

8/10/2015 06:53:01 am

"Zodiac said He told cops that a man went running by waving a gun and He pointed them to an area where they peeled rubber to. So if this scenario were correct, then even though the offender had left the scene and is reported walking down Cherry and away from the cab, Don Fouke's 'witness' is claiming that a man with a gun ran by and must have done so going up Jackson Street because this white guy is going down Jackson and points them back uphill. Fouke doesn't instantly wonder "Hang on, the crime is around that corner, what, or more accurately, how the hell is the shooter now running uphill back toward the scene itself?" Scenario A therefore, can be discounted."
Zodiac said " p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again". In other words although he bumped into Donald Fouke at 3712 Jackson, this cannot necessarily be interpreted as this is where he passed a man waving a gun. This is only where he told this story. All he said was he passed the man running and waving a gun. This could have been suggested anywhere along Jackson Street, in other words as far as Fouke was concerned Zodiac passing this man could have occurred at the intersection of Jackson and Cherry and this man waving a gun would not necessarily have to have backtracked up Jackson Street. Zodiac said he directed them, but only from where he saw the 'running and waving' man. If this was the intersection of Jackson and Cherry it is even more likely he directed them further up Jackson to Arguello Boulevard, which is what Fouke originally claimed in the earlier pre 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' video. When Fouke and Zelms then ' went around the corner as I directed them', this would more likely have been Arguello Boulevard and made more sense as you alluded. The police would have very foolish to believe the murderer would have backtracked towards the scene of the crime, that is because Zodiac was probably gesturing the waving man he passed was at the Jackson and Cherry intersection. This makes Fouke's actions more plausible. Are these Paul Stines glasses by the way. http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/are-these-paul-stines-glasses

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 07:39:14 am

Ok Rich so lets just say for a moment we are both in agreement as to Fouke responding to West Pacific based on The White Male's directing him there, it can be no other reason. So, if we agree on this, do you still also, keeping this in mind, believe that Zodiac them himself ran through the Presidio Wall on Maple and into Julius Kahn or any general area of The Presidio? Zodiac knows that the cops are heading for this very location, so for him to then turn down Maple or Spruce himself out onto West Pacific Avenue would be Suicidal. If your enemy is at Point A in numbers and your able to observe them then even if your psychotic and delusional (which I don't think Z was for a second btw) then you are not going to wander straight into the middle of those who are seeking you. You surely avoid the area like one would avoid the plague if it were possible.

I don't even see how, if Zodiac directed Don around to WPA, and He simply must have, how He himself can then get to The Park or into the grounds Himself without that unit seeing him because like you printed Zodiac saying himself "They peeled rubber and went around the corner..." and if He means At Arguello then He see's Don disappear around onto West Pacific so there is no possibility He then ducks through Maple because Fouke is the other side of that very wall.

Richard

8/10/2015 08:27:49 am

I partially agree: lets both agree that Zodiac directed Fouke further up Jackson Street and north onto Arguello. Fouke then had three options, west on West Pacific Avenue, continue northwards on Arguello into the park region or head eastwards on West Pacific Avenue. Now if Zodiac had said he saw a man 'running and waving a gun' heading east along Jackson towards Arguello, it is highly improbable this man would then turn 180 degrees and head back east along West Pacific, when he could have just entered the park at the top of Cherry Street, which he apparently didn't. If Fouke had surmised, as he alluded to in the documentary that he thought the suspect had entered the park, then the heaviest density of tree and undergrowth is either side of Arguello Boulevard, which would have been my logical choice to search. If Zodiac entered the park two blocks away at Spruce, this is his view up West Pacific. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Washington+St+and+Cherry+St,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/37.78976,-122.45583/@37.7906863,-122.4542302,3a,75y,273.77h,84.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjtUks7H_NU3q8qcoVwTn5g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DjtUks7H_NU3q8qcoVwTn5g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D313.78073%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m10!4m9!1m5!1m1!1s0x808587301b6b6cc5:0x8ad56b1d3e042f1!2m2!1d-122.4572353!2d37.7886851!1m1!4e1!3e2?hl=en
He only has to peer around the corner, it's extremely dark here, if he sees no headlights east, he's across the road and into the park in less than 3 seconds. Besides let's say Fouke had spotted him, well in theory Fouke should not suspect him as he was the one who pointed them to another suspect in the first place. They didn't hold him then, why should they now. Also you said it would be suicidal to enter West Pacific having directed the cops there, but this would be for 3 seconds tops, but it was also suicidal to have killed Paul Stine, walked up Cherry and instead of entering the park directly from Cherry, he turned east onto Jackson in the direct path of potential oncoming police vehicles. Here he would have been exposed for 2 minutes rather than 3 seconds, but he did it anyway. I think the risk of darting across West Pacific Avenue from Spruce Street is minimal by comparison, not to mention killing Paul Stine in a built up area in the first place. Once in the park he is a shadow and any tracking of him considering he had a gun would have been suicidal without adequate illumination. But we can regard Fouke's statement of heading south onto Cherry first in all likelihood a falsehood, his most likely movements initially were in all probability along Jackson and right onto Arguello. After that your opinion is as valid as mine.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 09:55:14 am

Well Don says He briefly speaks with Armond, then 'turned around to get to the Presidio" and yes, while He states that A certain area has a lot of foliage , He states in the next sentence that "So we turned, wen't down looking for the suspect in the area of Julius Kahn Park, nothing was observed."

So if Zodiac is near Maple when He's accosted by Fouke and watches Fouke until His prowl car goes around the corner onto West Pacific then how is possible for Zodiac's next comment/claim to be accurate of "And I disappeared into the park a block and a half away never to be seen again." How can you get from Jackson, turn down Maple and go through the wall entrance onto West Pac. Av., then run or dash off across toward the park without Don and Eric seeing him?

And to be open minded about it, lets say Z somehow by some means got there without Fouke seeing him run across West Pacific, the next obvious question is then......Where did He go? Police now coming from every direction in vehicles, motorcycles and on foot. 7 dog untis on scene, the Presidio Army Base even sends their soldiers that are stationed there out into the Presidio to help with the search. I could maybe accept Zodiac getting from Jackson through onto West Pac. Av. and into the Park area without being seen but to have the Police and basically the Army on scene also with 7 dogs, fire trucks with search lights that one of the cops I recall stating made the whole area appear as though it were the middle of the day and have this massive search effort neutralized by the offender vanishing into thin air.

I don't know Rich, and I mean this with all due & upmost respoect Rich as always. but if the choices are between one man taking on many SFPD patrolmen, a barracks full of Army staff, 7 dogs, 2 searc lights and a partridge in a presidio pair tree and that one man outwitting all the above by hiding in a bush, up a tree etc or.... He was simply not there to be found? I think the more realistic and likely of the two options is the second.

Richard

8/10/2015 05:06:59 pm

Hey Alex you don't have to give me due respect, give me both barrels of venom if you like, you've definitely earned your stripes. I will have one last bash at the park scenario, even though the house nearby scenario I would never rule out. We are told that the call was placed by the three teenagers at 9.58pm, but if we go by the massive 2 page police report, it states the taxicab was'reassigned to another cab at 9.58 pm and the taxicab company would have been informed of the murder after police received the call from the teenagers, so logically the three teenagers rang in slightly earlier. This tallies nicely with Armond Pelissetti arriving 'red light and siren' at 9.55 pm as he states in the 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' documentary. At this point we are both agreed Zodiac is two minutes up the road on Jackson Street somewhere. If the Zodiac let's say entered the park via Maple, this would take him a further minute at most. So at 9.56 pm Zodiac could be conceivably entering the park. Even if he was stopped by Fouke he would still be in the park at 9.57 pm or at the extreme latest by 9.58 pm. He is now nestled in the park having a picnic behind a tree, pouring himself a nice cup of Earl Grey and buttering hot scones, watching cops cruising up Arguello Boulevard in their cars and on their motorcycles. Back to the comprehensive 2 page police report it states ' Ambulance was summoned, code three, and other units were requested for an immediate search of the area'. This meant the cars and motorcycles were sent out scouring the roads. The report went on to say 'Victim was examined and pronounced dead at 10.10 pm. Inspector Krake responded and summoned dog units and a fire department "spotlight" vehicle to assist in the search'. So the dog units and fire trucks could not have been deployed instantly, but we will be over generous and say they were on scene at the park at the earliest 10.11 pm. At this point Zodiac had been having his picnic for as long as 13 minutes if he had so chosen, wiping the crumbs of his face, having just finished the Times crossword. When the dogs, spotlights and fire trucks finally arrived at 10.11 pm Zodiac observed them beginning their search, after all they were conveniently illuminated, so he left as they began the search and they never came within '2 blocks of him', as he alluded. Picnic hamper in hand he casually exited the park in an easterly direction and the rest is history. He probably spent that much time in the park, he probably had a go on the swings and slides for good measure. Martin Lee was right, these dogs could have found a mouse, but they weren't looking for a mouse, they were looking for Zodiac and the search started too late.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 05:56:51 pm

It had not escaped my attention Richard that your latest reply has within it's general message numerous examples of sarcasm, something which I spot easily being the main distributing outlet for this so called lowest form of wit and I feel it is essential Richard that I point out, you are in danger of becoming like myself, and this Richard can only be 'Deplorable at Best.' Lol.

But ok, lets say the He is in the park commencing his one man picnic party taking tea with one of Martin Lee's mice, then the point surely has to be that once He is in place secured within the bush of stealth, He cannot then, once the cavalry start to arrive to gatecrash his party of one, simply get up and waltz away out of the Park because the dogs may not have come within 2 blocks of his Pre-planned public picnic party but, that doesn't mean we may assume the entire search was centered there also.
Surely there were people spread out throughout the general grounds of the Presidio as per Lee's 'We searched that area tree by tree and bush by bush' declaration.

What I am trying to say is, if He allocates himself a position out on the grounds somewhere, anywhere, then once He's picked his bush of benefit to conceal himself within or behind, He locks himself into that one place and essentially trapped himself there. Now While you won't get an argument from me if Lee suggested they strategically placed cheese baited mouse traps around the Presidio to and becoe dead silent hoping to hear Zodiac's Presidio picnic Pal, who I shall simply refer to as 'Mickey' setting a trap off and thus giving away He and his accomplice location, this, as far as I know, was not ordered on the night in question. I shall call upon my influential contacts to double check with Chief of Inspectors Mr Lee Himself regarding the plan to flush out the vermin. I shall be back!

Richard

8/10/2015 06:49:51 pm

Hey Alex this article makes me chuckle http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Zodiac-called-a-clumsy-criminal-2615336.php
It says "Leaving alive two of his intended victims in the deranged attacks he made on couples in the North Bay region -- two young men who may one day pick him out of a lineup." Did they think Zodiac was going to turn up to the identity parade in his executioners outfit so Bryan Hartnell could say 'that the man' or Michael Mageau was to request the identity parade lines up sideways.
"These mistakes, as well as others police won't elaborate on, show Zodiac not to be the master criminal he apparently considers himself". What mistakes, what stabbing a guy 6 times in the back and shooting another four times, once through his face is a mistake and the other mistakes they won't elaborate on. They wouldn't elaborate on them because they had nothing. It reminds me of the dead parrot sketch, trying to convince us their is something when there is nowt.
"Lee said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn't anywhere in the vicinity". Zodiac failed to mention where he got in the taxicab, but he was there Martin. Failure to mention is not proof of not happening and he was in the vicinity blabbing to Fouke, but you just let him on his way, who's clumsy now. Oh there he goes, he's just slipped through my grasp.
"It is the knife attack that leads investigators to consider that Zodiac may be a latent homosexual. His cryptic writings and hand- lettered boasts don't indicate this -- but the way in which he wielded the knife does hint of it." The stupidest statement ever said by police. Every killer who uses a knife is a homosexual, ha ha. And how do they know how he wielded the knife, Hartnell was lying face down. Now if Zodiac had been dressed in a pink tutu I may have thought he was slightly camp, but holding a knife and stabbing means you are a latent homosexual. Last time I lop the leg off a chicken.
"The knife fell again and again and formed the mysterious symbol -- like the crosshairs of a gun sight -- that has come to be Zodiac's hallmark". - RUBBISH, who told you that and you call Zodiac a liar.
"Psychiatrists and criminologists have told investigators that such a modus operandi could mean Zodiac is unsure of his manhood". Ho ho, I wander if these idiots kept their jobs after spouting such drivel.
"Attorney General Thomas C. Lynch has issued an appeal to Zodiac to turn himself in". Ok boss I'll turn up tomorrow 7 am sharp. Sounds like Kevin Spacey in Seven.
"We will see that he gets help and that all his rights are protected,"
Roughly translated "We'll beat the f..k out of him".
"He is obviously an intelligent individual. He knows that eventually he will be taken into custody. So it would be best that he give himself up before tragedy is written in blood." 47 years and counting, you were bang on Mr Lynch.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 10:18:03 pm

That made me laugh as visions of 6 suspects marching into an ID line up wearing black square hoods and a cross hairs and Sgt. offering "Take all the time you need Bryan and when your ready and if you can, tell us which hood attacked you. Then they file out and witness No. 2 Mike Mageau is next to view the line up. "Michael the man who shot you may or may not be in this line up today. . . " Mageau "He is! It's him, Number 4! No, wait. . .Number 6.....number 3 has a similar nose but I am sure without doubt it's number 2! It's difficult Sgt, could you give each of them a beaming bright flashlight to shine directly in my eyes then order them to turn to their right to get a profile view? No don't bother, its number 1, i'll never forget the face of that man who shot me, He looks like number 4 there.2

And I myself Rich have often said and expressed the importance ofjust how true and accurate it is to say "Just because you may not be able to physically see something, it does not mean that that something is not there" and I know your now going to say 'Yes Alex, an example of which is Zodiac not being found in the Presidio does not mean He was not there" to which I will then obviously respond: "True Rich it does not, but this will not change the fact that Zodiac was not in the Park or up a tree somewhere within the Presidio.

This is where we get that philosophy and the saying & moto of: "You need to shake a thousand trees for Before A Zodiac will fall into your lap."

Richard

8/10/2015 10:39:42 pm

Whether the Zodiac entered a house nearby, entered the park, got in a car or tunneled out of Presidio Heights via Colditz tunnel C, he was still cleverer than the police and that didn't take much in 1969. He could have left by boat for all we know, at least the scent would have gone cold, unless Marvin Lee's pooches could do the backstroke to keep their peckers out of the water. They wanted to do a line up for the three teenagers, but no police room was long enough and absent of lightbulbs, but nevertheless impressive how they saw the frown line detail on Zodiac from 60 feet.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 10:42:12 pm

There are other comments Riich that are just a good in this article... Attorney General Informed Zodiac that His rights would not be taken away from him. I think, Thomas, His freedom and liberty are more a concern of his. "He knows that He will eventually be taken into custody." You haven't read many of His letters Mr lynch, have you? He seems to know it alright, He's almost in tears as He blasts "Police shall never catch me because I have been too clever for them" & "Like I have always said, I am Crack Proof" & "There are reports that City Pig Police cops are closing in on me, FK, i'm Crack-ProofWhat is the price tag now?"

He's not so much concerned with his own imminent apprehension so much as He is Upset that people will not wear his button

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 11:17:58 pm

Rich you said:

"Whether the Zodiac entered a house nearby, entered the park, got in a car or tunneled out of Presidio Heights via Colditz tunnel C, he was still cleverer than the police and that didn't take much in 1969."

Now here we have found a common ground of belief in this idea. Armond Pelissetti decides that the best chance of catching up and detaining A Homicide suspect is to tip toe after him when He has a vehicle right there. Dave Collins is given a full facial desctiption by Cecelia and fails to report it dismissing it as "Not important" as to what the man looks like, followed closely in 2nd place by SFPD's finest Don 'Fouke-Up' as He declares He does not think a suspect heading for a house and as such could possibly live there is of any importance nor is it worthy of reporting. So between Dave Collins and Don Fouke, Police do not give a toss what a wanted offender may look like, and certainly do not want to know a possible address for him.

You see it was different times back in 1969 Rich, those were the days where if you were pursued by an Officer from SFPD then any criminal worth his status will tell you if a cop chased you back in them days, you'd simply have to find the closest set of concrete steps available to you and then run up them. This would throw your pursuers into a complete confusion and they would crash their vehicles and forget what day it was. These were the good ol' days where Criminals would be heard declaring "Freedom is but a few concrete steps away!"

While this is all happening Armond is still somewhere on Cherry Street zig zagging from one side of the road to duck behind a car on the other and diving and rolling over the Bonet/hoods of vehicles until coming upon a white guy at an intersection.... "Oh Hello there, Top of the morning to you Sir." Kjell: "It's 10:10pm." AP: "Whatever now I am going to ask you a question, take all the time you need. Have you seen anybody in the area in that last 5 to 10 minutes that, upon seeing them, you made the observation of "That man looks like someone who would abscond from a taxi without furnishing the driver with payment?"

Richard

8/10/2015 11:21:08 pm

Like you said ages ago Alex if Zodiac walked into a cop station now, naked, covered in blood, carrying a machete and waving Paul Stine's driving license aloft, they would probably arrest him for disturbing the peace. It reminds me of Dirty Harry, "if the Zodiac was chasing a naked woman down an alley, with a machete and hard on, I don't think he's collecting for the Red Cross". What a classic.

Richard

8/10/2015 11:28:51 pm

Armond Pelissetti was tiptoeing through the tulips, ducking and weaving and Donald Fouke was conversing with a killer, but when the two eventually met up it was more like Wuthering Heights than Presidio Heights.

Alex Lewis

8/11/2015 12:03:11 am

That's right, Armond wen't and uprooted a 6 foot high 4 foot wide bush from the Presidio and emerged back from the Presidio via Cherry and is concealed himself within it and every 15 seconds this road side bush would move 2 to 3 foot further along Jackson toward maple.

Don, as you quite correctly point out, has stopped and pulled over and gets out of the Vehicle to smoke a Cigar with a guy who was sat there as He approached. Don said He did not have a light so approached the man with a crew cut and horn rim glasses to seek a light from him, whereupon they struck up a friendship and chatted away like old friends. When His Superiorts asked what the hell is he doing exiting his vehicle to take a cig break with a citizen, Fouke said "Well, it was a beautiful evening Chief and I had decided to have a break and let my extremely competent fellow Patrol Officern Pelissetti play out his role as super cop in a wild west gun fight. The Guy on the steps was not there long himself before He said He now had to return to paining his front room a deep red color, so this saved me having to ask how he was covered in a wet red liquid." The Chief then recommended Don for an award for most dedicated cop award, 1969.2

Alex Lewis

8/11/2015 12:59:38 am

I want Don or Armond, not fussy which it is, to personally do a rendition of this song to myself: I'm sorry, Sorry, So so sorry,and theres no easy way to say i'm sorry to Welsh Chappie....."

https://youtu.be/KUDjRZ30SNo

Alex Lewis

8/11/2015 01:13:26 am

Now here we have UK PM David 'I'm going to make cuts in the public sector until Britain has a total of 3 police officers left to cover the Country' Cameron in a Gangsta Rap biggin it up at the Conservative Posse show giving a shout out to his main man Zodiac when He opens his White Boy rap with "I'm Hardcore and know Zodiacs true score, kjell and chums matter more, because they are the Law and Kjell made sure he's ready for a class war. 2nd verse sees White Boy Slim Dave C open "So let the beat drop, Zodiac comes with flows right from the top, they have the bravery to bring back slavery and the last thing Cali needs is them the Conservatives, worse than the alternative... Z doesn't care when He drives you to despair, don't you dare claim it's not fare!"

https://youtu.be/0YBumQHPAeU

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 05:43:36 am

I see it exactly the same in regards to much of what you alluded to in the sheer stupidity of declaring the man may be a latent homosexual
going by the pattern of stab wounds. I almost can see Lee adding "We now have the latent homosexual's latent fingerprints!"
See if I'm Hartnell and I Chief Lee said "Alex, the man who stabbed you may have been homosexual" I'd reply "Chief you may be looking to date him but his sexuality is of no concern to me as I the being stabbed bit repeatedly by a person is the bit I was concerning myself with.

I assure you chief, I wasn't led there as CHOMP after CHOMP came down into my back thinking "This man is stabbing me Homosexually! Now if a voice came from within the hood sounding like Alan Carr "Woooo Bryan darling your a big boy ain't you? Stay on the floor Bryan, bitch!" Lol

The attacker may be a man who is unsure about His manhood! they said.
Again,I would reply "Was He, there's lovely. Shame He didn't feel the same about stabbing the shit out of me, only this he seemed pretty confident and determined on while He went about his Gay Business"

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 06:08:22 am

Quite fairly obvious what The Highly Ranked Chief who oversees the Inspectors is doing here. Very good, highly advanced tactic being employed here by The Chief of Inspectors which Law Agencies may wish to take note of which has a specific term called 'School-Yard Name-Calling.' Chief Lee called a joint task-force meeting and stood up "Right, morning everyone & thanks you all for coming from your respective agencies to share info and.......HEHEHEHE, sorry! HEHEHEHE I just thought of a great idea to anger him out of hiding! What I,.......HEHEHEHEHE........What I will do is approach Avery ver the The Chronicle and......HEHEHEHEHEEH. .......I'll give the paper an interview and say repeatedly "Zodiac is BIG FAT GAY BOY BIG FAT GAY BOY, YOUR A FAT GAY BOY =....HEEHEHEHE.
Toschi? You in? How about you Ken?"

Tosh and Narlow have to write down YES on their note pads and hold it up in response to The Chief's question as they have fell off their swivel chairs in fits of giggles.

Richard

10/12/2015 06:16:41 am

I think the homosexuality angle was in part similar to calling him insane or a madman, designed to illicit a response or mistake by infuriating him, of course which failed miserably. The only time I referenced this latent homosexual claim by Toschi was in this article where I believe Zodiac made reference to this jibe or accusation in his own inimitable style when he created the Halloween Card. You may find it interesting but then again you may not, but it may trigger some new ideas.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/skeleton-in-the-closet

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 07:50:07 am

I totally agree and I don't think for one moment they really dis suspect He may be a Closeted Gay man and they publicly said it as you said to elicit a response and also, I think Chief Lee had just about had enough of this man who was not content with just making them look a little incompetent in not catching him but He is going to as He tells them@ Rub their faces right in it.....PS, TWP COPS PULLED A GOOF!

I can imagine Chief Lee seeing that and feeling the anger start to burn as He mutters: Who the fuck does He think He is, delighting Himself in the latest episode where He executes innocent man in car, walks 150 yards or so and stops to have a chit chat with SFPD's finest...."HEY HEY,. STOP!!! Thank God! There's a man with A gun now go up to the final Intersection at Arguello and follow the road to the right & onto West Pacific Ave. I will wait here fore you, I promise Mr Police man, now go go go! (*Hehehehe, that's one Mr Averly will be required to publish, MUHAAAAAHHAHHA.)

Don come flying back down Jackson and White Guy gone, note stuck to tree right where suspect stood....."DEAR PIG! I LIED! ... MUUUUHAHAHAHAHA! Me - relishing in your stupidity SFPD - Believe anything."

Lol. Zodiac may only have stopped focusing his stare and attention at the cops and just gaze into the distance up-hill and go: "Sorry Officer, but I am sure./.....I am......See the Truck up there parked right at the top? I could have sworn someone just looked this way a your red and blue lights and,.....and then ducked down out of view behind that truck ***screeching tyres as Don wheel-spins on the spot for 4 seconds before going anywhere, arrives at Arguello and bursts from his vehicle and dashes behind the tree close by shouting: "BLACK MAN WITH GUN! COME OUT NOW WITH HANDS IN THE AIR,,,,,,"

3 Hours 37 minutes later "NMA WITH GUN, LAST CHANCE NOW, COME OUT FROM UNDER THE VEHICLE WITH.....HEY YOU, PSST, YES YOU LITTLE KID! GO OVER THERE AND PT YOUR HEAD ON THE FLOOR AND LOOK UDER THE TRUCK AND IF YOU COME BACVK UP WITHOUT BEING SHOT, I MAY LEAVE THE SANCTITY OF MY TREE!

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 06:20:05 am

"Then we have Donald Fouke, who despite spotting a white male on Jackson Street for only a few seconds as they passed him, was able to give a very detailed description of the suspect, despite the fact he was white and they were supposedly looking for a black male. His description was a 35-45 WMA, barrel- chested, medium complexion, wearing a waist length, navy or royal blue zipper type jacket with elastic at the waist, and on the cuffs, he had a crew cut, brown wool pleated trousers, baggy in rear, engineering type boots, tan in color, low cut shoe and wearing glasses. Not bad when your looking for a black male."

Yep, I have, on my own site pointed out that Fouke was a trained observer but the level of detail that Don recalls here from what He said was "Five, Ten, Fiftten seconds from spotting him to passing him." This sighting is at night and from the confines of a moving vehicle which makes focusing in on small detail extremely difficult. I can't say it is impossible to remember that level of detail from a sighting lasting serveral seconds at night but to me it just seems very very unlikely. And as you said Rich, if as Don claims He's looking for a NMA then this recalling of the white guys entire outfit down to the color of his shoes is even more perplexing because He should not have any further interest in him after 1, maybe 2 seconds it takes to notice the guy is white. In fact Don stated Himself that He slowed down after spotting him and, Quote: "Saw that it was a white male. . .Step on the gas."

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 07:25:12 am

And another thing that is suspicious by it's absence is the mention of Kjell as a man who Armond had briefly questioned at Jax and Mple Intersects. Isn't it proceedure and standard to list the names of any and all witnesses or individuals spoken with at or near a homicide scene? Lets take Lake Herman as a benchmark. The Investigators of that double homicide interviewed all the people that were known to be on Lake Herman at or near the time of the murders. These range from hunters out hunting to a pipe line repair man. Any and all known vehicles they discovered were on Lake Herman that night the drivers were spoken to and every single one of these people's Names was recorded in the police reports of the crime.

The idea that Armond Pelissetti, having encountered a white guy somewhere near Maple, would not ask the man his name but would just see him, ask had he observed anyone in the area, have the guy say no, and then Himself just walk away is unrealistic on many levels for many reasons. I mean unless the SFPD Police Academy training involves teaching officers: "If you are an officer that arrives at a homicide scene and you conduct a search of the immediate area and you come across someone lurking around about 300 yards from the crime scene then you don't ask nor want the guys name just ask him "Do you know something about anything?" If this person says no, walk away. This is standard procedure and how we do things."

Ok Armond later stated it was Qvale but in Private, He never said it publically and when He discovered this info and his witness name had got out to the public area and he was asked to confirm, Armond said He had no idea what the person asking him was talking about. Continued below. . .

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 07:26:15 am

Continued:
Kjell's actions and threats in the years after the Stine Murder are also completely out of place. If Kjell was at that intersection and had no involvement in or to the cabbie murder then He really didn't anything like your average bystanding witness who, in the vast majority of instances, would be happy to assist Police. Kjell, on the other hand, has been referred to from 1970 right up to his death in 2013 as simply: Suspect X.
He was always called that not choice, but by threats from him that if his name appears on A Zodiac forum, site or page then He will file a legal claim against that site or forum's founder/owner for defemation of character. I remember seeing a web site forum that His name got mentioned on and the site's owner quickly redacted it and warned not to post his name again or the website owner will have to block the posting privilage of that member. All these threats from a man who is not anything to do with Oct 11's cabbie killing?

You'd assume, at least I would, that Kjell being a well known and respected citizen that He would be happy to be seen to help police in investigating a homicide if He could. It would be in his own interest really considering this ruthless execution of a cab driver has occured one block away from his home on Jackson. I just don't see the logic in someone who is simply a witness who would have legitimate reason to be in that area because He lives there deciding that rather than agree to help and have his presene there recorded that He would prefer instead to issue threats all over the place "LAWYERS! LITIGATION! CIVIL LAWSUIT!" That how the average witness responds when it's put to him that He was seen in the general area around the time of a serious crime? J. Owen, S. Borges, H Your etc etc etc were all witnesses or in the area of Lake Herman when this crime occured and they, rather than litigate against everyone on the Planet when their name gets uttered, were instead happy to give a statement and have their name and address logged in the report.

Greg

7/11/2015 04:20:46 pm

Don't really have a strong position on this.. But I thought a point that was left out of this has to do with the social / political, racial ramifications involving the Black Male report, or lack thereof.. It could be that they left out the Black Male Adult detail from the report to avoid incurring claims of racism from the city's black community and its assorted leaders.. Don't forget this was SF in the '60s.. There was so much activism and civil rights protesting going on, the last thing they needed was for riots to start up because of claims of profiling and stereotyping against blacks.. Conversely, if they invented an excuse to cover their mistakes, why choose, of all possible excuses, Black Male Adult given the unsteady social undercurrents?.. Dispatch errors do happen quite frequently, often to tragic and violent ends, such as when police show up with guns drawn at the wrong address for a reported burglary.. There are loads of stories like this that I see online and in the news.. Since the killer was dressed in dark navy or black clothing, the miscommuication about him being black could have come via the description of what he was wearing.. If there was a lie such as this, I do believe the dept. administrators or the press would have uncovered it, or even the detectives themselves would have admitted to it over the course of time.. It's similar to the idea that Zodiac had accomplices -that idea usually gets shot down on the grounds that someone would have talked, a secret of such magnitude can't be kept for long when it involves more than one person....Interesting theory, but I think ultimately Fouke showed his humanity during this turn of events.. Why didn't he proceed backwards to 3712 after hearing the revised description?.. Because he was existing in the moment, processing a massive amount of stimuli and not thinking completely logically.. Cops have an incredibly stressful job; despite the training they receive, they're still forced to act on their instincts and they're bound to get it wrong at times.. I do agree that Pelissetti should have taken the name of the guy he questioned.. Fouke, on the other hand, was rushing around hectically so I tend to give him a pass for whatever errors in judgment he may have made... They could have worked more professionally, yes; but a lack of superior execution does not equate to institutional corruption...

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 07:45:17 pm

Well if they did not mention it for fear of the racial implications it would likely cause when the Black Community became aware of it that this concern for the potential racist implications would not have gone away when they decide to say that this was the initaial broadcast.

Greg itsn't just they forgot to metion this mix up in race, but Don seems to have forgotten that he saw and/or spoke to a white male that night, Armond's post crime report mentions the White guy at Jax/Mple nowhere at all anywhere.

Why does Don take a huge Risk of not telling anyone He encountered and spoke to a white guy that night on the street because not only does the guy he spoke with know about this little chit chat and could drag this encounter from the darkness out into the light but this encounter occured not just on a street, by either right at or the very house next to a 4 way intersection! People were likley approaching their windows by now when the encounter occurs because there are sirens and flashing lights coming from everywhere so any number of people could have come forward and told a reporter He saw a cop car stop and a white man lean over and speak to them. Continue in 2nd post below . . .

Alex Lewis

7/11/2015 07:47:38 pm

Tell you what Greg, lets have a compramise or challenge of sorts. If you can the SFPD to tell you who took the call and dispatched the first responders that night? Should be absolutely straight forward, no reason or motive for them to wish to hide the name of thius person if, as you suggest, they are not being deceptive? I would ask them myself but I don't fancy 'peeing into the wind' as the saying goes. They won't tell who it was Greg because they know that this dispatcher did not broadcast such a blunder and if we are who the dispatcher they know we will likely track him down by any means we can and ask him why he made such a comlete idiotic blunder and the SFPD know that He would inform us that He never and they are lying in response to being outed by Zodiac. SFPD know that no dispatcher in his right mind would agree to lie and make himself look a complete dunce and incompetent to staggering proportions when He never did uttered the two words 'Black Male' at all when relaying the information to Patrol Units

Richard

7/11/2015 07:32:29 pm

It does surprise me Gregory, as Alex alluded to, we have reams and reams of pages of police reports on the Lake Herman Road murders, here 60 pages here http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR1.html.
The Blue Rock Springs attack has 75 pages here http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR1.html
The Lake Berryessa attack has 35 pages here http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport1.html and further interviews with Hartnell.
In all, as Alex said, copious interviews with endless people were documented, but where are the police reports on Presidio Heights. The 8 year old child is overlooked, the man with the dog, who was he. They must have ran door to doors, took detailed info from Martin Lee, Leroy Sweet, tracked down the possible previous passenger in Stine's cab, interviewed the dispatcher etc etc, but where is the 30-50 page report. The detailed forensics, similar to Lake Herman, along with diagrams, absolutely bugger all, unless this is it, 2 pages.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html
Another thing while were here, where are the BRS photos.

Greg

7/12/2015 01:40:52 pm

Richard -I'd argue that the man with the dog's name was not taken because, as you'll recall, he was allegedly spoken with the moment Pelissetti arrived on scene, and he (the cop) assumed the killer was possibly nearby.. Pelissetti was fearing for his own safety at that moment.. He didn't have the opportunity to take out his notepad and pen and take the man's name.. His foremost concentration was on checking the alcoves and alleyways to see if there was a blood-drenched murderer lurking.. The guy with the dog was, according to Pelissetti, free of any blood and was also (calmly, presumably) walking his dog.. Now, you might say to the guy, please take cover, sir, there's a cab driver who's just been shot and the scene is so fresh the scent of gunsmoke is still in the air; you might admonish him that you'll be back later to take his name and formal statement -after all, being so close to the scene he might turn out to have viable testimony.. These were, no doubt, mistakes on the part of Pelissetti.. But what arguably supersedes these professional errors is the fact that Pelissetti had to have assumed this man 1) not to be anything resembling a suspect and 2) he felt satisfied in the man's response that he'd not witnessed anything noteworthy.. Pelissetti, at this moment, probably felt the killer was so close that the police needed watch their backs and summon all their efforts into locating him.. This is my best explanation as to what might make it understandable that this man's name was never taken.. I don't know too much about the 8 year old child you mentioned.. I'd assume, as a minor, and as a witness to a cold-blooded murder, pains could have been taken to protect his/her identity.. The 13 and 14 year old's names were blacked out in the police report.....Unrelatedly I'm unsure why any witnesses names have ever been publicized.. My God, there's a psychotic killer on the loose and the names of people who could possibly implicate him are being made available.. The disregard for the safety of these people is staggering...

Greg

7/12/2015 02:21:47 pm

Alex -I take your points regarding the strangeness of all the things you've described, and I tip my hat to you for your very insightful theories and questions.. Setting the minutiae aside, here is my question: if it's true that the part about a Black Male Adult was a lie, would Pelissetti and Fouke really agree to appear in the documentary "This is the Zodiac Speaking" and willingly sit in a chair with cameras before them and lie?.. That is asking a lot of them.. I can't believe that not one, but both these men would be completely bereft of integrity and be able to do as such.. Moreover, they're both retired.. There's no need for them to keep this charade going on.. Unless, one might argue, they were forced into doing these interviews under threats against their family or pension.. It just seems to me that when people have something to guard and protect, the Last thing in the world they want to do is talk about it.. But this hasn't been the case -these cops have given interview after interview, at times, as you've said, contradicting their own remarks due to the amount of talking they've done.. In my experience, I've noticed that when people cling to a lie they will tend to shy away from the spotlight at all costs.... The dispatch error, in my mind, was not something they were proud of, so they they shied away from making it public.. I have no idea why the dispatcher him or herself was never identified or why the police were more curt about the Stine murder than the others.. They could have made a conscious decision to begin handling matters internally since Zodiac seemed to feed off the media hysteria he had the power to stir... In the end I have to feel that if there were something substantive to this, given the amount of coverage and public and press interest this case has generated, somebody over the last 45 years would have squawked and blown a whistle on the big lie.. Those two cops did not possess the audacity or lack of conscience to sit in front of a professional documentary production team and unblinkingly perpetuate a 40 year old untruth...

Alex Lewis

7/13/2015 03:50:35 pm

Well Greg the idea of two former police officers going on camera to claim something they know is not true isn't the easiest idea to swallow for a lot of people. Ok Greg ask yourself this: "If it was my best interest to lie about something, would I do it or tell the truth about it knowing that I will face criticism from everyone in media circles, probably be asked to resign and more than likely be hated by the SF Public for allowing the Most Dangerous Lunatic in America wonder off to wherever he was going but before you made you let him grateful you were for him stopping to assist and help you out to apprehend him by directing you uphill to run around looking for someone that doesn't exist because the nut with a 9mm isn't up by Cherry st or Arg blvd, the nutcase, it turns out, can be rather helpful when it is his own best interest to do so.

Alex Lewis

8/10/2015 11:49:26 am

"Richard -I'd argue that the man with the dog's name was not taken because, as you'll recall, he was allegedly spoken with the moment Pelissetti arrived on scene, and he (the cop) assumed the killer was possibly nearby.. Pelissetti was fearing for his own safety at that moment.. He didn't have the opportunity to take out his notepad and pen and take the man's name."

Greg come on mate surely you don't really believe that, do you? Armond's priority above all else is to serve and protect the public, and it takes around a second to string 3 words together to form a question of "What's your name?"
If Pelissetti were so concerned and believed his own safety was in extreme danger then He wouldn't have decided to go after the offender on foot alone. Greg if there was a way in which we could find out for absolute sure whether AP knows the identity of this man He has referred to, I'd bet you any amount of money you wanted that Armond knows very well who that guy is/was.

I mean we live in a different era now and I am British so the culture is not vastly different and if there was a homicide tomorrow and A Sgt asked one of his PC's 'What's the name of the man you reported speaking with 100 yards from the scene within 4 to 6 mins of the murder happening?' and the PC replying "You know Sgt, I don't know. I did not have time to ask and jot down his name.' The Sgt would go absolutely nuts because His Officer has just failed to get the details of a potentially crucial witness or worse, the offender himself!

There is simply no excusing what these two cops have done, muddying the waters so much with multiple versions of the same event, not reporting or naming witnesses or suspicious people near the crime scene or that a suspect had turned onto the footpath of a property etc.
They are not doing this Greg because they have no reason or agenda or because Armond has a wager with Don betting He can tell more lies and fabricate and manipulate the truth of an event than Don can, which Don replies "Your On!"
I am absolutely convinced Greg, they know something Greg more than they are telling you and I. The Government, even Law Agencies have classified information that is available on a 'Need to know' basis and in all probability someone who thinks they can decide for the rest of us has decided we don't need to know.
If taking their own testimony, inconsistent, ever evolving, and admitted false reports or parts thereof and using this to arrive at the conclusion that their is a conspiracy to pervert the course of Justice by concealing what may otherwise solve this case then, well, I am A Conspiracy Theorist and I and this claim must not be tolerated because George W. Bush said not to!

Alex Lewis

7/18/2015 04:59:27 pm

Not only that Rich but once they had determined the rough area where Paul had picked up his fatal passenger, that being Mason and Geary area (I personally believe it was likely outside the St Francis Hotel which is at Mason and Geary anyway) then did police not go there and conduct interviews with staff working at the Hotel that night, or ask for anyone in the general vicinity of Mason and Geary who remembers seeing a White Male, 5 ft 10, medium to stocky, H.R Glasses and a crew cut get into a taxi to come forward?

Appeal for any witnesses who may have seen the taxi en route?

When Paul Picks up Zodiac and records the destination of Wash & Mple, doesn't He also list the pick up point?

Don encounters a white male, fails to report this. Armond encounters white male, again, fails to report this. Are we to believe that two separate cops encounter two separate individuals and both, independently of each other, fail to report their encounters? Or is it far more likely that they both encountered the same guy, they both know and are aware of this, and both either decided or were told not to mention it? If so, why? You can't just gloss over a little incident such as two cops both encountering a white guy that matches your suspect description both fail to report this and who the white guy was! Armond knows it was Kjell, He admitted it years later in private and said He wasn't on the sidewalk with a dog but was on a drive just standing there. Don knows also it was Kjell, his composite is a dead ringer for Qvale back then, so why are none of them saying this and what are the not wanting, or not being allowed, to tell us?

Richard

7/18/2015 07:36:49 pm

When Paul Stine was given regular pick-up at 500 9th Avenue from Leroy Sweet, it is entirely plausible Zodiac was already in the taxicab as he approached Mason and Geary. 500 9th Avenue is only 3 miles from Mason and Geary. If his cab was empty are we to assume he stopped to pick up a random passenger who might have wanted to go East, West, North or South, in other words the only way this passenger was any use to Paul Stine is if he was going roughly in the right direction. How often do taxicab drivers stop for a passenger and say "sorry mate your going the wrong way" or "I can only pick you up if you are heading west". Isn't it more likely when Leroy Sweet offered him the scheduled pick up, Stine accepted knowing he was already travelling to Washington and Maple, only 1.3 miles away. Picking up a random passenger in the theatre district and that fare just happening to want to go just 1.3 miles away from where you were already going sounds lucky to say the least. Aren't taxicab drivers supposed to place priority on scheduled journeys. I believe Zodiac was already in the rear of the taxicab when Leroy Sweet contacted Stine. So Paul Stine had picked up Zodiac somewhere close to Mason and Geary, approaching it from the south, as he was probably returning from the San Francisco Airport via Highway 101, my guess somewhere near the Tenderloin and Eddy Street. Assuming the taxicab meter was calculated correctly, it would have to be close to Mason and Geary, but not necessarily on it.
I am assuming Kjell Qvale was an intelligent and wealthy man, but if this were so, why does he flag a taxi from a street corner and ask the driver, who he about to kill, to drop him off only a matter of a stones throw from his own front door, I know you wouldn't do it Alex and neither would I, it makes a buffer zone look redundant and seems foolhardy to say the least. The Pelissetti and Fouke accounts are slipshod at best and if Pelissetti did see Kvale on the drive, is it possible he was alerted by the commotion and sirens and came out for a peek. I have questions over both police officers accounts, but their ineptitude does not make Qvale the Zodiac, although it doesn't rule him out either. I now believe Zodiac probably did enter the park http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-truth-behind-119.
If he was telling the truth about the murder occurring at Washington and Maple, and I believe he was, plus the "two cops pulling a goof", what good reason has he for lying about being in the park all of a sudden. All his detail in the Bus Bomb Letter tallies and suggests he entered the park in Spruce Street and quite frankly I am starting to believe him.

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 06:02:50 pm

Speaking of reports and their contents, the individual named in the FBI document that was positively identified by an eight year old witness in Stine's murder as being the possible subject responsible in this matter, Probably will never be released. I have filed a couple FOIA's requesting this redacted name be released because for me there is nothing in this case that is more important and crucial that took place during the entire investigation than this incident where A person is positively identified as the murderer of Paul Stine. They kept this quiet at the time it happened, and never said anything of this most absolutely crucial and significant piece of evidence in the form of positive ID ever since either.

While reading the three pages of general info that comes as standard with every successful FOIA response given to requestees on how it works, what they have released to you, what they may have withheld and/or redacted and list of reasons why something may be exempt for public release. The FOIA comes under Title 5 of the United Stated Code, which has section 552 and 552a. Now under this Section it states Info that may be exempt and the reasons why they may not release something. Section 552, and subsection b3 states that they may not release information/names/date etc if it requires matters be withheld from the public such as to leave no discretion, or B) establishes criteria for withholding and/or refers to particular types of matters that are to be withheld.

And this is just one subsection of section 552 that they can point to for not releasing the redacted individual's Name because, as the subsection says Establishes particular criteria in types of matters to be withheld. Which to my Layman eye says "If we don't want to release it, your not having it." This is just one of many listed 'exemption from' rules. Memos are exempt it seems if they deem them to be. Information which may reveal the source where a promise is made that they will never be named publicly as furnishing specific info.

Seems to me it goes like this: "Me....Important person deemed to have a need to know. You,.....Joe Public and Mr Nobody will know what we decide it is in your interest to know."
Let's say just for a moment that Kjell Qvale is the man who witness positively ID's as Zodiac and is the name found under the obstructing redact, you think that if they knew or strongly suspected Kjell to be Zodiac and hushed it up that this would meet the aforementioned 'Particular Criteria for Withholding Information?'

I'd say: Absolutely!

Richard

7/11/2015 08:08:14 pm

Another thing needs to be explained. Martin Lee, chief of police said "We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree an bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country.A mouse couldn't have escaped our attention." Well to track a scent, they have to have a scent ie: Stine's blood or Zodiac's scent, surely they took this scent from the taxicab, so putting the search of the park aside for a moment, surely the sensible option would have to have tracked the scent up Cherry Street, the last place Zodiac was definitely seen, then they would have detected his route and discovered for certain if it led into the park. If the scent went cold at Jackson and Maple, it could certainly have cemented the idea Zodiac had a vehicle standing by. Surely the scent would have travelled up the stairwell at 3712 Jackson Street and not have needed to rely on Donald Fouke recollecting this information, the dogs would have discovered this and would have peaked the attention of the police.
The incredibly short police report says "The military police headquarters of the Presidio of SF was notified and an intense search of the Julius Khan Park was made by seven dog units to no avail." My question is this: why were they searching the park, the first course of action was to search Cherry, then neighbouring streets, if the scent subsequently never went into the park, a search of it would have been unnecessary, after all if these were the best sniffer dogs in the country, it may have been realized the scent never went into the park and saved a lot of time. Nobody, not even Donald Fouke saw Zodiac enter the park, Fouke last saw the mystery man outside 3712 Jackson, so who initiated the idea of searching the park, a trawl up Cherry and Jackson may have revealed all. The sniffer dogs didn't discover Zodiac in the park, not even a mouse, but surely they discovered a scent in Cherry and Jackson, where is the mention of this in the police report or newspapers.

Alex Lewis

7/12/2015 07:53:51 am

I asked about the K9 units quite a while ago now over at ZKS. I asked "I assume that the dog handlers first destination was the Cab because that where He was last seen before walking up Cherry." I had simply assumed that the dogs wouldbe taken to the cab but I was told none of the K9 untits did this and instead dashed straight to the Presidio.

I don't know that the dogs being taken to the cab would have been any good anywat beause Pelissetti had opened and leaned into Paul Cab to check for vital signs and then says he himself traced over the route the kids said the killer had taken so if the dogs tacked a scent at the cab leading onto Cherry it would almost certainlly be A.P they were pursuing rather than Zodiac because the dogs will pick up and follow the most recent and fresh scent.

Alex Lewis

7/19/2015 08:49:57 am

No Rich I totally agree and have made that very point on ZKS previously that what are the odds Paul stops on the off chance this guy with his thumb out just happens to be going the same way Paul is already going as he'd been dispatched. I tend to lean toward the idea that if Paul didn't already have his last customer he'd ever pick up already on board when He the dispatch comes through that He must have either known the passenger or at least been familiar with him and would have had a good inkling this guy would want to be taken to his usual destination He'd driven him to prior to this night. Only other thing I can think of is Paul gets stuck in the busy down-town traffic as the theater goers spill out onto the streets and as He's in traffic stationary He gets startled by a knock on the window or, possibly even, Zodiac opening his drivers door to ask is Paul able to take him to his Final Destination?

Whoever the passenger was, Paul would have known Presidio Heights was an upmarket living area for the well to do and whoever got in his cab Paul must have felt this guy fit that area. If I was a cabbie working the London Area and a guy gave me "The Hilton Hotel in Park Lane please" the just under £400 a night 5 star Hotel and he's dressed in Shabby stained trousers, a cardigan with 3 holes in and stinks of booze, I'd be very suspicious.

" I now believe Zodiac probably did enter the park.." Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that one mate, I am 99.9% sure it's as Chief Lee said: 'He was no where in the vicinity of that area' or words to that effect.

And I agree, because Armond and Don failed to mention in their reports encountering a white male on the street just yards from the murder scene within approx. 5 mins after the killer shoots his victim and 3 mins after departing the cab, this in and of itself does not by default make Qvale The Zodiac.
Continued below....

Alex Lewis

7/19/2015 08:50:55 am

.... .. What it does do, However, is make all omissions of police encountering him out there from any report not only highly suspicious but also labels the cops who failed to report this and name him as a person spoken with as Failure to do their sworn duty as a Police Officer. If the procedure is to list all witnesses by name you observe and speak with at or near the scene of a serious crime and they both fail to do this, well I would argue they are both like their non existent dispatcher: Criminally incompetent and should be fired on the spot.

If they can't follow the most basic of training and protocall, ie Armonds training kicking in where SFPD had taught him that if a suspect is armed and extremely dangerous and you pursue him, do so on foot and at night in an area where He could be hidden any number of places taking aim at you and do this after you've allegedly dashed back to your vehicle to broadcast an update. Then, when you follow the route of the wanted and come across a man just lurking around the corner from you homicide scene, ask him "Have you seen someone in this area Sir?" If He says No, you have no grounds to ask his name nor do you require it and above all, this is most important, don't report it anywhere! Tel your fellow officer to do the same. Then his fellow cop agrees to do the same. SFPD's finest Officer 'Fouke me, a white guy going toward a house maybe suspect.....All Units, All units, suspect is in the Presidio, suspect is in Presidio. Urgent backup requested on West Pacific, not 3712 specific, West Pacific Avenue."

Alex Lewis

7/19/2015 09:19:53 am

Having read this back Rich I am self conscious now that these two comments could appear to yourself as my dismissing or making fun at what you had said and because I have noticed this I feel obligated now to say that it is in no way intended to be at you or anything you said or suggested, but rather, the laughable and absolutely stupid comments I was alluding to came from Armond and Donald.
Please don't you call me obnoxious too or I shall change my screen name and comment as 'Alex, Deplorable at Best.' :-)

Richard

7/19/2015 09:05:49 pm

Well Alex (Deplorable at Best), no, your a true gent really, I know you have considered the Letterman Hospital from the military angle and it gave me the idea he knew the layout of the park intimately and had intended to depart the cab at Washington and Maple, a brisk walk up Maple and one block east is where he described in the Bus Bomb Letter,ie Spruce Street. Notice on Google maps (although not sure exactly what it was like in 1969), there is pedestrian access, unlike the shrubbery and dividing wall at Maple and Cherry. Had he entered this area his view of Arguello Boulevard is masked by trees, except for one small section and this small section is running northwest as he details in the Bus Bomb Letter, describing the motorcycles. This location is also 1.5 blocks approx from his meeting with Fouke at 3712 Jackson and he states that also in the Bus Bomb Letter. He also mentions the search 2 blocks west, and Argeullo Boulevard is just over 2 blocks west of Spruce.
The dogs were not deployed immediately, so he had the perfect escape route, east through the trees to Cow Hollow or the Marina District, providing him with a nice separation from the Presidio Heights area in a matter of minutes. Had he parked here, it is away from the action, his car could have been parked on Vallejo Street for example, backing onto the woods, negating the blood issue and off he goes.

COW HOLLOW
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cow+Hollow,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA/@37.7965588,-122.4454746,4046m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m17!1m14!4m13!1m6!1m2!1s0x808587301b6b6cc5:0x8ad56b1d3e042f1!2sWashington+St+and+Cherry+St,+San+Francisco,+CA,+USA!2m2!1d-122.4572353!2d37.7886851!1m4!2m2!1d-122.45583!2d37.78976!4e1!3e2!3m1!1s0x808580d090179919:0x9657339314b9d953!6m1!1e1?hl=en

SEE ZODIAC POSITION AND HIS FIELD OF VIEW OF ARGUELLO BOULEVARD.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/291903_orig.gif

Richard

7/19/2015 09:21:11 pm

Surely the Zodiac would have already been in the park, by the time any dogs could have been mobilized. I reckon the dogs were probably as inept as the police investigation. They probably mobilized poodles or Chihuahua's and it took them 3 hours to get across the park. What was the wind like that night.

Alex Lewis

7/19/2015 10:42:13 pm

Well for me it isn't only Martin Lee's comments that lead me to believe He was never in the park because after all, that is simply Lee's opinion, albeit based on the resulting search, but it's Z's own actions that seem suggest He had no intent on going into The Presidio by his ignoring Cherry's entrance. Then in his subsequent letter He seems to go to great length to convince you & I that He was heading for, then ended up at, 'The Park.'

"As I was walking down the hill to the park..." Why does He feel the need to say where He was going? He could just as safely have said "As I was walking down the hill this cop car pulled up..."

"And I disappeared into the park...." Not 'I disappeared into the Presidio never to be seen again" but "The Park."

"Hey blue pig, I WAS (Emphasis) in the Park."

"The SF Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly..."

Park Park Park this man wants to implant into our subconscious minds as a fact beyond doubt and If A serial killer is going out of his way to try to convince authorities that, lets say for example, His name is James by repeatedly telling them this then, odds are, His name is almost certainly not James.

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 12:17:51 am

Rich I have come up with a flawless plan as to how we may discover the truth of what actually happened and its very simplistic, what You and I have to do is get on an Airbus (purchase Air ticket's telling Check in girl we want a ticket from Gatwick to Washington and Maple streets) and upon arrival obtain possession of Don Fouke. "Have a seat Don, I am rather confused so we have brought you here today to wire you up to that *points to machine*. Now this, Mr Fouke, is something called a polygraph machine. This is the expert who will peform the test, He's flown in from China Specially, MrHa Yoo-Lie Me wil-No.

And by 'We should' Rich, I mean You. 'll wait here. Don't concern yourself with kidnapping charges, that is very defeatist attitude. 'The FBI will never catch me because Alex said so." Hehe

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 03:01:27 pm

"I am assuming Kjell Qvale was an intelligent and wealthy man, but if this were so, why does he flag a taxi from a street corner and ask the driver, who he about to kill, to drop him off only a matter of a stones throw from his own front door?"

So he can observe the police efforts and some specific details because He fully plans to use it in his upcoming letter to suggest the police are stupid,did not conduct thorough enough search in park for himself and then offers such fairly specific detailed info such as 'The motorcycles went by approx 150ft away and were going South to N. West. The dogs, never came near and were 2 blocks away from himself and were off to the West.

Ridicule and rubbing cops noses in it is what Z revels in. And while One can ask "why does he flag a taxi from a street corner and ask the driver, who he about to kill, to drop him off only a matter of a stones throw from his own front door?"

Well should I want to I could ask "Accepting the innocence or complete non-involvement of Qvale to what had happened that night then why is He nowhere to be seen in any post event official or off the record report?
Continued. . . .

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 03:03:42 pm

Essay continuation: :-)

You said it Rich, Ka-Vah-Lee is obviously intelligent so why on Earth if He's innocent would He not be named in police report as he must know it would be a good and admirable deed to be seen to do all you can to get some pistol owning nut who fires bullets at people with 'To whom it may concern' on the casing. To deny being on or out near the crime scene, refusing to even admit being in Pacific Heights that night at all and having a cop on scene turn around then and declare privately to a 3rd party over the tel. "The guy I saw that night was Qvale, Kjell Qvale who lives in the area."

Kjell has taken a totally non suspicious and reasonable answer to his being there to denying everything and threatening legal action. Only a Bloke far below the normal mental competent threshold would swap accepted scenario and seen as doing good deed in his being named witness to lying and denying being there people.

Richard

7/20/2015 05:42:05 pm

When are we going to see a comprehensive page on Kjell Qvale on your site Alex, nobody has done one yet and after the excellent job you did on Lawrence Kane, it might be a worthwhile project. On a % scale how do you rate LK and KQ now.

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 06:59:29 pm

Don't talk to me about wordpress Rich lol. I have 2 step log-in activated which means it will not permit me access upon login with password until I enter the code the website generates and sends to my mobile phone.....a phone, as I think I mentioned in email, I lost and no longer have. And wordstress....wordpress sorry, don't have live chat agents, or even a contact number to call when your up the creek and have no paddle.

However, yesterday I finally got a reply for someone via email who informed me that once I supply them with an alternate email not associated or linked to my existing wordpress they will email me a link which they allege is going to get me back on.

Alex Lewis link

8/7/2015 04:33:03 am

I wouldn't mind writing a page detailing Qvale as A suspect, but I just don't think there is enough evidence, be it physical or circumstantial, that I could use to make a persuasive argument for the claim. And even of the things we believe we do know, how do we know them? Armond privately claimed it was Qvale out there, and when He came across Mike R championing Kjell as Zodiac Armond called Mike and said "Your suspect Has an alibi, He was not in the area that night."

That's what Armond angrily told Mike Rodelli. Armond did not know that a previous Conversation He had had with another Mike, namely Mike Butterfield, had been recorded and Rodelli had already heard Armond telling Butterfield it was Kjell He had encountered that night. Then, when Mr Q himself got word of Rodelli's claiming Him to be Zodiac Mr Q did not respond with threats of legality as He had done other times, but rather, Qvale invited Rodelli to speak with him in person.

Mike R went to me Kjell and said that Kjell looked him directly in the eye and said more than once: "I am not the Zodiac, I was not even in the area on the night the taxi driver was killed." Mike said He repeated this several times and all the while Mike R knew He'd heard Pelissetti directly telling Butterfield that it most certainly was Kjell He had seen.

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 06:30:48 pm

That Short Police Report Rich, a page and a half, I would say isn't the entire report of this incident but rather, it's all we are being allowed to see.

See when an FBI Memo alludes to a witness in cab driver murder identified specific person as subject that's possibly responsible for murdering the cabbie then to say the SFPD would not make a report of this is laughable. It's the same as Fouke and His encountering a White Male that the public were not told of until Zodiac let the proverbial cat out the bag with his 'PS, Two cops pulled a goof which you must print in paper!' declaration letter. Now some will say The SFPD superiors were not aware of this incident because Don didn't tell His superiors about this in a report of His own and if this is the claim by the Authorities, my response is "With respect, F*****g bull shit!" We may wish to enquire how one Armond Pelissetti is required to report what Happened upon responding to a crime as a first responder, but Don Fouke isn't.
How can this document even have a 'PS, witness in murder ID'd So-and-so as possibly responsible' if this was not recorded by anyone? When a witness gives information to police, such as this eight year old in question, does the witnesses statement not get written down and recorded for the record? Ummm, yes, every single time! Yet they would have us believe that there was an exception in this instance and if you asked for the official recorded statement or record thereof they'll probably say it doesn't exist. It is clear that sometimes the powers that be think we are all complete idiots and if they tell us complete bull shit, we'll swallow it without question because it is bull shit issued by such impeccable agencies or people. Example springs to mind: "That was not a 500 ft triangular shaped object hovering 100 yards in front of your cockpit window Sir, no, this was swamp gas."

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 07:24:07 pm

It reminds me of the JAL (Japan Air Lines) flight 1628 incident, a Boeing 747 Cargo Plane with Capt. Terauchi, one of the Air Lines most experienced and highly ranked pilots at the helm. Terauchi radios asking is there any traffic in the area about 500 yards ahead of his position. He's told they have nothing in His flight space. Then the two lights suddenly come speeding toward his jet and he recalls He and His co Pilot physically ducked thinking a collision was imminent. When He looked back these object went from a stationary position near his wing to a mile away in a literal blink of an eye before disappearing behind his Jet. Believing They had gone He sighed with relief and just then, He said He became terrified as a gigantic craft dwarfing his 747 came into view with the smaller objects going into, then out from, this huge 'Walnut shaped craft.' If the 747 was golf ball sized, this thing was a basketball. He radioed Ground Control and told them that He had traffic, intentions unknown and possibly hostile, shadowing him and asked Air Traffic Control for permission to turn heading out over the Ocean for fear that a collision may be imminent and they didn't want the plane diving into a populated area, Air Traffic Control gave Him approval and added "We have you on Radar, and we also can see an unknown object to your six o'clock position." The Capt was then told fighter jets were being scrambled to engage the unknown intruder and Capt. T, now being cleared to land at a near-by airport reported that as He bagan to descend, the objects wen't from right at his wing position about 150 yards off it, and sped away to a pin point of light on the horizon in a literal blink of an eye.

This Capt. had been the longest serving pilot at JAL and was looked upon by the other pilots as being The Air Lines No.1 Pilot, who was a former combat serving Air Force pilot, and for such a distinguished and respected Capt. his reporting this was not received warmly by the FAA. After speaking with Officials about what He observed He was informed He was mistaken and that the metalic walnut shaped craft was "A big cloud." One that apparently moves from point to point in seconds with smaller clouds going into it and a cloud that appears on radar as a solid object at altitude.
Yep, listen to any official agency from the CIA to NASA and they'll wan't you to accept and believe that AirLines are employing pilots to fly 200 citizens half way around the World and who cannot tell the difference between a cloud and a metal solid object under intelligent control by the way it could & did clearly move.
The best sceptic explanation I ever heard for a UFO pilot sighting was "What it may have been was a reflection off of a very large area of growing cabbage's which, under the correct atmospheric conditions, can appears as a mirage at altitude. The Pilot replied: "Well, if that is what I saw then I want to know who's growing cabbages out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean!"

Alex Lewis

10/10/2015 08:40:16 pm

And to finish this point on the subject of UFOs, I emphasize the point that UFO ,means exactly what it implies, an object, clearly flying, yet is unidentifiable to party observing it. I have to stress this because there are many many people who, as soon as yo say UFO, will associate this with and then take you to be meaning, 3 ft grey aliens flying about the place doing their best not to crash in Roswell, New Mexico.

Am I saying I think Capt. T of JAL saw The Vehicle of Inter-Galactic Space Travellers from Zeta Reticuli several Light Years Away? No.However, I do believe that this pilot, like all others, are competent and more so than any other witness to know what is in the sky and be able to recognize other flying objects like jets, hot air balloons, Flock of geese etc due to them being in the sky for a living! I can say that if a veteran air force turned commercial pilot who is considered the best pilot respected by not just first officers, but other Captain's as the Airlines Chief Pilot and He says He saw a huge walnut shaped object, with what appeared to him to look like warning red and green blinking lights such as seen on Aircraft wing tips running round the centre of this object that hovers a couple hundred yards from His Jet at most, which He stated to Air Trfc Cntrl was appearing to match the 747 in speed and direction before it disappeared at seeming light speed, then I can say I am confident enough to conclude this is not a cloud, big one or otherwise. Now was it them 3 ft grey aliens up there piloting the unknown object? I don't know. Could it be a secret Government black project that was on a test flight and somehow ended up over the Ocean toward Australia? I don't know. If you saw a Stealth Aircraft before it was ever announced to be a US High Flying craft designed and looking like a flying wing, would many call in and declare they'd spotted a UFO? Probably, yes.
People, such as sceptics, will talk about logic and reason and imply that to believe in such things as UFO's is to abandon both citing 'No Physical Evidence to prove these things exist.' Well, let's address logic and reason. To my, it seems that ignoring official testimony of Pilots, both civilian and non-civilian, Army Colonel's, Air Force 3 star Generals, Civilian Police Officers and even former United States President Jimmy Carter as all misidentifying swamp gas or temp inversions as Metalic objects moving from point A to Point B seemingly running rings around the 2 fighter jets trying to engage it then from my way of seeing it, it is neither logical nor reasonable to suggest all these are misidentifications or illusions. To me, there is absolutely no rationality in the idea of "Well, because we don't know what these things are, they simply don't exist." That to me is extremely irrational and illogical.

I mean these things have been seem hovering over nuclear launch sites and on numerous occasions when they show up at a facility that has nuclear weapons and ability to launch them, the nuclear warhead rockets launch systems go offline and shut down one by one, which as the Base Commander commented: "Is simply not possible to have all of these warheads go into offline and non launchable because we don't use one computer or system for these Nuclear Rockets, each has a different computer system for launch codes and the odds that all of these systems shutting down and going offline independant of each other is almost zero."

Now again, maybe America really is putting the ability to launch Nuclear Weapons in the hands of a man that is psychotic and mentally unstable who thinks aliens are outside his base, I can't say I know that isn't the case but I would say it is absolutely the most unlikely explanation and sheer coincidence that just as The Base Commander is having his daily dose of Psychosis and seeing hovering objects over the base front gate the Warheads go into idle mode one after another. In fact, if you asked me which I thought most likely to be responsible, a illusion or psychotic attack making it only appear there was a silent hovering object there which, just by sheer coincidence, the Rocket's Launching ability goes from ready to idle one after another independant of each one before it or, that object was really there as many on site employees testified to seeing it there and that it was, given the almost zero statistical probability of coincidence in systems malfunction being responsible, likely was either a direct result or indirect consequence of the object's presence.

Alex

7/11/2015 08:28:53 pm

Not sure Rich about BRS. But let's back to Presidio Heights a monent and to Jackson and Maple Intersects. We have one cop that has given us so much detailed information on what the guy looked like, his age range, hair color and the wardrobe he wore even remembering the elasticated waiste and cuffs, flap down collar and the type of shoes and color thereof from Don's Five second sighting at night. Don could remember this detail if he snaps a photograph as He cruized by Maybe.

And now here comes Don's Colleague, The ducking, weaving, s sommersaulting backflips over the hood of parked vehicles Mr Armond Pelissetti. These two combined = the chuckle brothers: "To me. . .to you... to m. . . to you.. I did. .you didn't. . I did. . .You didn't. . .I didn't" both seeing who can deny and contradict more than the other.
Armond see's a white guy, too. And Armond has a far better good old eye ball of the guy because He's standing right in front of him. But Armond is not bothered about telling us or relaying the guy's detailed descrioption only that He was "To old, To thin and didn't have blood soaked all over him. What was He wearing A.P? Did he have pleated pants, derby/parka type jacket, navy blue in color I
wonder?

Richard

7/11/2015 08:44:42 pm

Also if the Zodiac had been rummaging around in the front of the taxicab, he could not have avoided making contact with some blood. He also had a piece of Paul Stine's and forgive the pun, but this is a 'red rag to a dog'. A simple tracking of this scent would have confirmed the exact route up Cherry and possibly into Jackson and there would be no speculation remaining on whether it was Zodiac Fouke saw or not. The scent would have travelled up on the east side of Cherry to the north of Jackson, along to 3712 Jackson, deviated up the stairwell, then either stopped or carried onto the park or disappeared totally after he jumped in his car. The mystery would be over on his identity and route at least and not necessitated Armond Pelissetti to have ever doubted Fouke. Also Zodiac said " I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber." Wouldn't this detail have been revealed by sniffer dogs who could detect a mouse at 40 paces. The scent would have travelled along the sidewalk and deviated towards the roadside edge, after all Zodiac said he was "called over", hence he deviated from the route he was taking. This would have confirmed or rejected the idea of whether Fouke was telling the truth about stopping Zodiac. But alas another thing we may never know. It's all a little too convenient.

Alex Lewis

7/12/2015 07:59:32 am

Armod had been at the cab, checked Paul and saw no sigs of life, then himself walked down Cherry so the dogs wouldn't pick Zodiacs scent up but the more recent and fresh scent left by AP.

Richard

7/12/2015 08:35:35 am

Take a look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_dog#Functions

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 03:17:26 pm

I ever forward you this Rich before? This is a filmed visit of the family of Qvale as they visit him at his mansion. I have always wondered whether the video shows Miss Q a family member at The Westin Hotel (St Francis) which it just so happens is where Paul likely picked up passenger and then the clip cuts and jumps to Jackson & Maple panning toward Presidio entrance. Fast Fwrd to 10:08 Rich and you'll get the idea..... https://youtu.be/WveNec1AtPs

Richard

7/11/2015 09:20:20 pm

"Not sure Rich about BRS. But let's back to Presidio Heights a monent and to Jackson and Maple Intersects. We have one cop that has given us so much detailed information on what the guy looked like, his age range, hair color and the wardrobe he wore even remembering the elasticated waiste and cuffs, flap down collar and the type of shoes and color thereof from Don's Five second sighting at night. Don could remember this detail if he snaps a photograph as He cruized by Maybe".

5, 10, 15 seconds tops Fouke said as he passed Zodiac. Elasticated waistband and cuffs, tan engineering boots. It was dark with some streetlights. Now this sort of detail would be totally acceptable if indeed he did stop him and Zodiac approached the car, maybe even resting his hand on the passenger side door. I wonder.

Richard

7/11/2015 10:54:26 pm

Explain this one Alex. Armond Pelissetti said he arrived "red light and siren" at 9.55pm. He parked in the middle of the intersection, that's when he noticed "three children that were heading over to that car, they weren't too far away, but they were a good 15 or 16 feet away, I made the assumption they were coming from the home on the corner and I was correct and immediately herded them back to that alcove". Then he said "the description that came over the air was of an NMA (Negro Male Adult), the only person that could of given that information was the child who called it into police dispatch, whether somebody wrote it incorrectly and the child actually said white guy, I don't know. I went over to the cab and could see Mr Paul Stine, who was slumped over the front seat with his head into the well on the passenger side of the front. There was blood all over the cab and I was 99.9 % certain and it was AT THAT POINT THAT I RETOOK THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SUSPECT and told it was a white male." Can you see the problem.
He had herded the three teenagers back to the alcove, crossed over the road, looked into the cab and got the revised description. How long did it take him to cross the road and get to the taxicab, a few seconds tops. The revised description came in, but the three teenagers were across the road, only they could have revised the initial mistake if they were still on the phone with the dispatcher. But they weren't, they were outside. This at least tells us that the kids never gave the description of a black male, because they were not still in conversation with the dispatcher, had he/she asked them to run over the description again. Now if the description was written incorrectly by the dispatcher, who was it who corrected them. Pelissetti got there very quickly at 9.55 pm, at that time the kids were there, as they were in the alcove after he ushered them there. So when he got the updated broadcast, who was updating them on the initial false description. If the dispatcher had misheard and the kids were no longer on the phone, who amended it for the dispatcher. If the dispatcher had written black male, this cannot change on it's own. Pelissetti then said once he retook the amended description "he couldn't get to the radio fast enough to let everbody else know" and that would have included Fouke, so how was Donald Fouke unaware of this when he bumped into Pelissetti later. Remember him saying he used an expletive when he met Pelissetti in Cherry Street, now being told it was a white male, presumably according to Pelissetti he had already let everyone know.

Alex Lewis

7/12/2015 08:21:37 am

Well the suspest is still there at the cab as they are dialling, then get through to, the SFPD. So I mean once the the kid tells the dispatcher a general outline of whats going on, that being, In a cab across the street it looks like someone is stealing the cab drivers money as he's going thorugh his pockets and the cab driver isn't moving, first the dispatcher will likely need to know ASAP is "What's the location?" After this is given He/she would likely ask "Is the suspect still there?" This is crucilal information because you need to let the responding untis knows exactly what they are going into and also to advise the kids if they say suspect isstill there to "Stay inside, makesure the door is locked and help is on the way.

Amond arrives just basically as Zodiac has just traversed Cherry so it seems overhelmingly likely that when they were speaking to the dispatcher and were being asked 'Whats the location, can you see any weapons the suspect may have? Is He still at the cab? What color is he, white .. . black. . . ? How tall? How old would you say he looks?" and all these questions that no doubt the dispatcher will have asked because it is esseential the He doesn't direct Armond speeding straight into an ambush for example, this must vvery likely mean that at the very second that the disptchher asks what the subjects race is, or as He was aware He was speaking with a child on the other end simplified things by not using words like Ethnicity, Racial Profile, Caucasian and/or Negro etc and likely asked in simplistic terms "What Colour is He? Is He a white man? A Black Man? And whren He asked this, the is very likely staring directly at the guy standing wiping the cab down in front of him across the street. To suggest you'd mix up the race or colour of a person when your directly at him is a bit too much to ask me to swallow.

Richard

7/12/2015 07:30:25 am

After Palissetti had informed all the other officers of the new description (white male) he was told by the kids "whoever had done this crime had left the cab, went out the door, seemed to be wiping the cab down, reaching into the cab and ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction". Pelissetti then headed off cautiously, not wanting to get his head blown off. He must have been approximately half way up Cherry when Fouke came round the corner and saw Pelissetti. Armond Pelissetti could not have been any further away than this, because Fouke wouldn't have spotted him at night, if he was. So let's be brutal and say after talking with the kids and cautiously heading up Cherry, it took Pelissetti only one minute (it would have been longer but I am stressing a point). Now how long did it take for Fouke to travel from the Jackson/Maple intersection to when he met Pelissetti. He passed Zodiac near that intersection 5-15 seconds tops, then sped off towards Cherry, 30 seconds being very generous to meeting Pelissetti. Total = 45 secs.
Now I have been very generous with the times, but what it means is Fouke must have received the revised description before his contact or potential sighting of Zodiac. In reality he was probably much further eastwards.

Alex Lewis

7/18/2015 05:14:55 pm

"but what it means is Fouke must have received the revised description before his contact or potential sighting of Zodiac."

That's what I been saying for a good 2 years now and no matter what you do, whichever way you look at it, you simply can't get around the fact that one way or the other that Fouke knew His suspect was white at the moment He encounters him. If the initial broadcast was BMA, irrelevant because Armond tells us He retook the description and broadcast the amended White Male before leaving the scene to head off down Cherry Walking, not running. So by the time Armond see's Don 30 seconds or so later, Don is aware that the suspect is White.

Remember, Don and Armond do not need to invent a 'BMA Incorrect broadcast' to begin with because they are not telling of their little encounter on Jackson Street with anyone. So no need to lie as such, we'll just leave that bit out and say nothing about it. Uh-ohh, 'PS: 2 cops pulled a goof about 3 min after I left the cab. As I was walking down the hill to the park this cop car pulled up & one of them called me over. . . "
Shit! Now what we going to do! We went out of our way to cover this up and now He's exposing us and the encounter. ummm, Ummmm, Think! Ah! 'Someone somewhere said BMA. The end."

Robin Smith

7/14/2015 12:36:18 am

"It is a besetting vice of Democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which masses of men exhibit their tyranny".

James Fenimore Cooper

ps I probably screwed that quote up a bit as it is early here...however, you get the point...sorry James!

Alex Lewis

7/14/2015 02:21:11 am

Forget who said it now, I believe it was of the former US Presidents (Dwight D Eisenhower is in the back of my mind, but not sure) who declared "Anyone willing to sacrifice freedom in exchange for security will deserve and get neither" or a quote along them lines.

That is why Society in general wasn't enough for some egotists many moons ago and they thought it would be a wonderful idea to create a system of classes, which is designed to separate us a people even more by allowing the implication to be made that 'This man here with a 3 houses and 4 cars is much better and his life is worth a lot more than that man over there who struggles to get by.'

What an absolutely pathetic concept is my opinion because not only is it completely untrue but, if and when you start to get the people observing this class structure, giving it a meaning and using it to define people then you'll get people allowing other people to simply walk away from a homicide crime scene because He is very important you see. Neither Arm nor Don can draw down on Qvale before slamming him face first into the concrete to cuff him, He is a person of status! He is not so much off limits or above the law, He's just too successful and rich to have a need to go round killing Cab Drivers.

To me, it's just all white noise and BS. To other people Qvale may be spoken of using his title Mr or Sir, A title is nothing more than a fiction, that is defined as such in law which why to me, anyway, He is just Kjell, A man like me and the rest of us. Sure, He has a few more dollars than you and I but they are rather like the class system to him now, absolutely no use at all.

Alex Lewis

7/14/2015 03:06:42 am

My point is this, then I'll leave it at that: We don't know it was the same man seen by both Don And Armond that night but from all the things that we do know, then it was either two separate White Males out there, one observed by Fouke, the other spoke to by Pellissetti who, despite all four men being at the same location with 30 to a minute of each other all fail to notice each other: Don's lumbering white guy vanishes into thin air and by the time A.P arrives at this same intersect.between 15 seconds to a minute later and now there is a man at this intersect. with a little pooch doggie that, somehow and by some means, was himself not there when Don passed by 20, maybe 30 seconds before but a quick puff of smoke, a few magic words with a flash of lightning and hey presto, there he is!

Either that or the guy that Armond speak to at the same ;location with a minute tops of Don passing him, is just single and same guy and Armond has made the private admission that it was A Gentleman by name of Mr Qvale. So lets assume for just moment that there was no doubt both cops saw one guy in Kjell, my point and/or question is this: ** Continued below in 2nd space. . **.

Alex Lewis

7/14/2015 03:07:34 am

Continued:
If this homicide were in another area or district of San Francisco and Don fouke and/or Armond Pelissetti came upon a man yards from a homicide via bullets to the head and the man turned and tried to walk away then how people honestly and genuinely believe that the same actions would have been taken by D.F/A.P and outcome be the same? I don't believe the NMA but even if that were incorrectly issued over the air, had it been somewhere else in the city and someone else who wasn't Kjell observed then I honestly do not see Don just continuing past because if the guy isn't a suspect he could have just seen the man who is. Don would have, and this is just speculation and opinion, got out, asked the white guy to stay where he is and gone over and explained there was a homicide committed 100 yards away 5 to 10 minutes ago and then his next words would likely have been "You have any weapons, guns or knives Sir, anything I need to know about? You don't mind if, in light of the armed suspect on on the ;loose, I pat you down do you, Sir?

You can not making indirect accusations that a man such as Kjell, sorry, Mr Qvale Esq. may be carrying a 9mm to execute cabbies with! You would have to have Chief of Insps. Martin Lee, along with Toschi and Armstrong around Kjells the next morning taking tea in the mansion spending 6 hours telling Kjell how sorry they are for this 'inexperienced officers actions' and with "Please don't use your high profile status to sue the Dpt Mr Qvale, your majesty. It was a mistake.

Robin Smith

7/19/2015 12:34:31 am

My problem with this is Edward Wayne Edwards whose Aunt Bea worked in a bar at Mason and Geary and lived in Presidio Heights reportedly a couple of blocks from Washington and Maple.

EWE was kN0wn for his misdirection and framing innocent people. Kane was planning jewel thefts and who kN0ws what else in bars (see newspaper clippings on Alex's site) with strangers and I doubt that EWE was a stranger.

Qvale could have come out to see what was going on however the Washington/Maple/Hunter Jr connection is clear and the SFPD was clearly lying.

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 11:44:43 am

Well lets put it this way Robin, Armond and Don would not have, acting under their own free will and choice to do so, simply left each of their encounters with a White Guy out of the reports because they wanted to or were both simultaneously struck with amnesia independent of each other and just down to coincidence. How can I make the assumption that AP and/or DF would not have omitted their encountering a white male through their own free will in a conspiracy of two? Because neither of them have any reason to do this which is why it makes their silence so much more suspect.

Alex Lewis

7/20/2015 06:46:03 pm

If no second White guy was out there but rather both cops see the same man either turn into (D.F) or standing doing nothing on this drive (A.P) then we can say for sure that (well,this is assuming Don isn't lying about which house and drive He saw white male duck onto) then Kjell was on the property of 3712, a property owned by Fred and Helen Bloch. If Kjell was the Horn Rimmed spec'd up (Worked for Superman, will work for Z too. Don a pair of specs, excuse the pun, and it will render you completely unrecognizable to all that know and have seen you without the magic specs on.

Hair is a wonderful mix of Blonde, maybe a sandy blonde to a light brown with a squeeze of red (Phantom) which shows maturity at the back and sides by turning grey and, errrr, Hold on,won't take a second and i'll be back with you, won't be a minute. . . .

"Oii! Kav-Ah-Leee. Yes you Kjell! I won't tell you again, get off them F'ing steps now! And stay Off! Your house is over there, go play on your own steps Shell Kav, leave Fred and Helen's steps alone!"
Sorry, where were we....

How they never apprehended our Secret, yet extremely odd looking & stupidly moving Pal, I just don't know. Here He comes now, shuffling gait, swaying and stumbling all over the place down the sidewalk with his sandy blonde,light brown and tint of red and not forgetting grey hair, finished off with a huge V shaped hairline just looking like the biggest freak you ever saw will see shuffle anywhere at any time! Don't ask about his concrete fingers ffs!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 08:50:03 am

News Rich, I have some! Harvey's Brother kept his word and I now have Harvey's120 page full report!! I shall have the 'DO NOT DISTURB' sticker on the door for, what.....3 weeks at Least! I've readover the first few pages and already info came that I never before knew....

Foe Example....1316 Cave Rock Drive, Zephyr Cove and 1033 Eden Bower Lane, Redwood City, are two former residences of Kane! TTFN Mate!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 08:54:20 am

'Lawrence Steven Klein'...Alias never associated nor knew of relating to Kane.

Mate I will not keep posting updates here on the thread, give me chance to go over them and if it's OK with Oliver, i'll forward them to yourself if you'd like the files?

galaxie500

7/27/2015 11:03:41 am

Alex -

Would it be possible for you to forward me a copy, as well?

Thanks in advance!

galaxie500

7/27/2015 12:08:16 pm

--and by the way, congratulations on obtaining the report!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 01:18:14 pm

I will ask Oliver Galaxy if it's Ok to make this report available to the general public. But even if He says Yes, Here's my overwhelming concern and one that I replied to TRobin with when She emailed earlier asking for a copy of the report. Here's what I replied with pasted from my email and this is a concern across the board...

"Robin I am very selective as to who I give any of this info or copies of the files to, Oliver Hines, Harvey's Brother is himself in his 70's now and took time to upload and send me the entire report and I feel somewhat protective of Oliver and Destry for good reason of not wanting to have anything negative come back by some inconsiderate morons who just want to slander and trash a mans character because He brings us a suspect they may not like.

Destry has told me himself that He read what certain people had stated about his late dad Harvey and it hurt him quite bad. I don't want to open any of them up to that again with some dunce that may insult and dismiss Harveys report or anything in it."

Hope that makes sense.

It's only Richard that I'd feel absolutely comfortable with forwarding the report because I know if I asked "Rich please use these files for your own research purpose and do not make them public" I know that is exactly what Richard would do. I ain't saying you wouldn't Gal just don't know you or had occasion to chat and swap opinions etc like I have with Richard. You did really help with discovering the news articles on Kaye, fair play. I'll see what Oliver says first anyway.

Richard

7/27/2015 02:05:42 pm

Fantastic news Alex, what a coup, if I were a betting man I'd have backed against getting the report, that's the way things usually are, but all credit to you. If you send me the report it will remain confidential until you say otherwise, that would be great.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 02:46:47 pm

I'll Email you now Rich to get your opinion on how Our Secret Pal got to be inside Paul's Yellow Cab.

See now this is one of them occasions Rich where the most obvious is probably the most likely. "How does one go about placing ones self inside a cab, how best can one achieve this?" We then Rich have gone through many scenarios some very elaborate abd technical and, turns out, He did what the rest of us do when we want a cab.....Rang for one!

It like that billion dollar US Search for Bin Laden, troops running around desert caves, bombing the shit out of mountainous terrain in a belief he may be there hiding. After a several year, multi billion dollar man-hunt, where did the Seal Team find the elusive stealth wizrd? In his fu****g House!

galaxie500

7/27/2015 02:47:38 pm

Not a problem. And yes, it makes perfect sense.

Thanks for responding.

galaxie500

7/27/2015 04:34:01 pm

I would, however, like to request that I be given proper attribution for the articles that I shared with you. :)

Thanks again.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 08:13:25 pm

Galaxy...

"I would, however, like to request that I be given proper attribution for the articles that I shared with you. :)
Thanks again."

You mean over on my website? I'll do that not a problem. . . When I can get the backup codes in order to log in. Having no end of trouble with Wordpress lately, trying to resolve issues is like pulling teeth cause they take 4 to 7 days to reply to anything via email and thats the only way to contact them.
When I next get on the site I will do that for you. How do you want me to refer to you, your name (which you'll obviously have to tell me firstly) or simply by your username Galaxy?

galaxie500

7/27/2015 08:25:01 pm

My username will suffice. Thank you. I hope I haven't been too much of a bother.

Alex Lewis link

8/5/2015 09:52:17 pm

Galaxie I have added an acknowledgement to yourself on my site for the three news articles posted there. I have full access back to my site now so I do apologize for the delay in being able to do it. :-)

Alex Lewis

1/24/2016 01:37:27 pm

Speaking of requesting Documents Galaxy, Greg directed me to a thread earlier in whichb you've posted many articles relating to or featuring Larry Kaye.
There are one or two I hadn't come across previously and I am not interested in publishing one of these Articles at least over at my site and just wanted to run it by yourself first make sure your OK with it?

The Article that refers to Lawrence as 'Lawrence Barton' I am specifically interested in on the following thread. . .

http://zodiackiller.forumotion.com/t150-newspaper-articles

Alex

1/24/2016 01:39:27 pm

What the hell am I saying lol. Sorry Galaxy, I mean I am interested in publishing at least one.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 01:30:18 pm

Interesting! Seems Kane was a serious gambling habit rather similar to that described as being had by Donna Lass. Kane had gone to Alan Dorfmans home and requested a $5,000 loan to pay off a gambling debt. Dorfman refused and Kane became 'Emotional' and Dorfman asked Kane to leave and that was the last time he saw Kane (1974)

Robin Smith

8/6/2015 05:17:06 am

Alex do you kN0w what date that was in 1974 that Dorfman refused an "emotional" Kane...1974 is when Dana Lull was taken!!!

Alex Lewis

8/6/2015 08:45:59 am

No, don't know the date specifically. Harvey states that He made telephone contact with Dorfman in 1974 and that Dorfman was evasive about what it was Kane actually did for him, only saying Kane was a public relations officer. He noted that Kane was not a licensed Real Estate Agent.

And I have a question for you. You said that back in the say you were a card dealer in one or more Casinos in the Tahoe Area, so would you know of a Mary Ida Hylander, Blackjack Dealer at Harrah's Club and Nancy Kapanos, Roulette dealer at same Club?

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 01:41:29 pm

Wow that is a first!! Rich, you know that point you and I have mulled over on many an email and thread and a question we both agree is perplexing....."Why and how would Paul stop for anyone when He's been dispatched to a pick up already?" Well, Harvey recalls in this report here:

"I then picked up the phone and called Dave Toschi at the SFPD to get more details of the Stine murder.
Toschi told me that they knew the killer had called for a cab using a payphone in downtown Union Square."

That why Paul picked him up....Z phoned a cab!!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 01:51:27 pm

That actually makes perfect sense! Paul gets given the pick up at the air port and seconds Later Z rings asing to go from Union Sqre to Pfic Hgts. The dispatcher, realizing Paul is going that route anyway radios Paul to stop and pick up a fare on the way as it along his route!
The cops will never release all details to the public, they always keep certain info back!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 02:00:55 pm

That's how they knew where Paul had picked Z up from! It was nothing to do with the cab meter, and everything to do with them knowing the area of pick up because the Zodiac had called and requested to be picked up from there!

I wondered why Graysmith has repeatedly been ultra specific in his 'The driver picks up a fare at the St Francis Hotel who directs him to W & M streets."
It seems R.G was made aware of this withheld fact and if He was then Zodiac asked to be collected from the Westin aka St Francis.

Richard

7/27/2015 02:58:27 pm

If Zodiac called a cab, I am assuming Leroy Sweet was advised to keep this information under wraps as he must have relayed the dispatch to Stine. Like you said it makes much more sense now, I never believed he randomly stopped for a customer, who may or may not have wanted to go that way, particularly on a traffic laden intersection. If Zodiac had flagged him down further along Geary Boulevard on the correct side of the road (ie;the flow of traffic), it's fair to say Paul Stine may have come to the conclusion Zodiac may have been travelling west. I wonder what benefit the police would have for withholding this information, unless they were hoping he would corroborate this information in his next letter, which he ultimately didn't.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 03:11:04 pm

Well there is no sinister intent to cover up anything here, they are just doing the standard thing and not releasing all detail to the public in order to sift the cranks from the genuine offender because the fact the killer phone for a cab was and is only info known to the cops.

Maybe, and this is obviously speculation, if a call were placed from the Hotel or any of the public image clad hotels nearby then the people running it are not going to want that as their next publicity marketing advertisement. "Come stay at The St Francis, A favorite hang on for the lunatic called 'Zodiac.' This four star luxury hotel has it's own swimming pool, marital en-suite and a serial killing nut case. If checking out, book cab from another location as Yellow cab won't come to this Hotel anymore citing not wanting to get shot the heads as payment.

It would make sense all rounds really to keep this to themselves so they may use it to dismiss the next crank "I am Zodiac, arrest me now" attention seeker.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 04:51:46 pm

Thinking back Rich, you did suggest a week or more back now that it may not be a case of Paul picking Z up after receiving the dispatch to his pick-up but that in fact, Z may have been on board as Paul gets the next job pick up place.
Probably spot on, Paul is dispatched to pick Psycho up from the Hotel and the dispatcher then, knowing this will be a shot run for Paul to make, issues him with the next job to pick up?

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 02:06:45 pm

I will take a screen shot of this paragraph in HH's report and will forward to anyone who asks for it in blck and whte just for the simple reason of 'Extraordinary claims require....Extraordinary evidence..;

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 03:31:48 pm

Oh yeah and Hines goes on in the same section, next paragraph to describe the conversation He and Toschi Had. I quote:

"Toschi Stated that two police patrol officer, DON FOUKE AND ERIC ZELMS, heard the first radio broadcast which, according to Toschi, was erroneously given as a black male. As they approached, they saw a white male walking toward the presidio. They STOPPED BRIEFLY and asked the white male had he seen anybody in the area? He told the them Yes That He had just seen a man waving a gun running in the other direction."

This is Harvey's recollection of a phone conversation with Dave Toschi himself who, if anyone would know the truth as to the stop and speak vs drive on past inconsistencies, Davey boy would!

Richard

7/27/2015 04:16:44 pm

Yes, if we use logic again, to have passed the lumbering man on Jackson Street without stopping irrespective of whether he was black or white makes little sense after all they knew the suspect was heading towards that region. However if they had been given reason to not apprehend or at least detain him by making a split decision, such as the white male saying he just saw a man "waving a gun", then their priorities change, wanting to protect the public from this imminent threat. It was the line that bought the Zodiac valuable time and this course of events seems more likely. They were presented with a dilemma and understandably chose, in their opinion, the clear and present danger, but obviously in hindsight it turned out to be the wrong choice. So why the charade of covering this up seems unnecessary, unless of course the embarrassment of letting a viable suspect on his way and being duped was too much to admit, so throw in the black male and no stop story to allay this problem.

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 04:38:04 pm

Yes true. I mean they are acting in real time to a shooting so it's easy for me to sit with what we now know that they did not at that moment and be critical of their actions. Maybe it is for the best that Fouke buys the story of the white guy and speeds away uphill because the alternate could have left us today without any testimony of Don Fouke at all had He tried to exit his patrol car and handcuff the white male. He may have been met with resisting arrest via bullet.

Tell you what I don't think I shall ever comprehend Rich is, why does Zodiac not duck into a residence three or four houses up the street and not wait until Fouke is literally right in front of him before He turns and tries to avoid the cops? I mean, AP responded with his disco equipment going (flashing multi colored lights with deafening sounds blaring in the form of a siren) so can we just assume that naturally, Fouke had his emergency lights and or siren activated also? If He did, Zodiac should have seen him coming from about 73 miles away! Jackson is a straight road that goes on forever it seems and the visibility distance on clear day/night is a good 2 miles easy!

Alex Lewis

7/27/2015 04:23:34 pm

Anyway, I have just emailed Oliver to ask does He have any limitations or wishes for me to not use these files or make them available to, the public. When He replies Rich and if He gives me the OK i'll forward the report onto you.

PS: I shall then fire an invoice: Dear Mr Richard. Please find enclosed a copy of the itemized Bill for your recent purchase. The Company, 'Cash Quick Enterprise LTD' (Company director: A welsh Person) looks forward to receiving your payment, IN FULL, within 14 working days of the date of this letter. Thank you again for shopping at Welsh Chaps Business.

ITEM PURCHASED: FULL AND COMPLETE REPORT.

RRP: Seven Hundred and eighty UK Pounds. £780.
VAT: One Hundred and twenty three UK Pounds. £123.

Amount now Due: Laughable.

Ha, just kiddning mate. You can have a 10% discount. <<<<laughing to myself now because I am an idiotic numpty who can amuse himself.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!

7/28/2015 09:11:48 am

I emailed Harvey's brother Oliver a copy of the FBI file that has the "Eight year old witness in murder of taxi driver identified *redact* as possible subject in this matter" comment and Oliver, from his response, seemed to think or assume that the comment is not referring to the witnesses age but rather, a witness from eight years ago ie, this report must have been written eight years after the Z shot Paul in Presidio Heights.
This is a school of thought I had previously considered myself and I raised this point with Oliver who then pointed to the only witnesses recorded are the three that called it in so the assumption has to be the comment is not to be taken out of context and believed to be a reference to age of witness.
I then decided to go have a look over the police reports in general to check what I was already fairly sure was correct and found that when a witness is listed by any police agency i reports etc they always record it leaving no room for doubt as to the meaning.
They will usually record A Witness by saying 'John Doe, 12, Jane Doe, aged 43 and Jim Doe, aged 22' etc. They tend to use the specific term and word 'Age' and this FBI report doesn't do that so I am now leaning toward this witness not being aged Eight, but that the report is pointing out that the witness who id's a redacted name as possible subject that shot Paul, is doing so Eight years after (in 1977) the fact.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!

7/28/2015 10:54:15 am

Ok good news.....

Oliver has replied and said the following: "Be a little picky with whom you share Harvey's report with. If someone is truly interested share it. Before you do though email Destry and ask him for permission. I don't know if he knows I had Harvey's report or not. I doubt if he did. Getting his permission would probably make him feel better."

Well I already did about 2 Months ago, Destry told me He's absolutely fine with me putting what He sends me (If He could locate Ed Rust to ask him fr the documents etc) on my site and making it public....

So Rich, i'll mail you a copy of the 120 page report. Galaxy, if I have your word you'll not put it online anywhere, you also can have a copy. I'll send the email with the doc attached tomorrow morning.

galaxie500

7/28/2015 12:27:53 pm

Alex -

You have my word.

galaxie500

7/28/2015 12:30:04 pm

my email address is [email protected].

--and thank you, once again.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best

7/28/2015 04:20:16 pm

Galaxy, One will have email at the above address :-)

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!

7/28/2015 04:36:15 pm

Right who is any good at possibly getting hold of S.F maps and the list of Payphones within Union Square that were present back in early Oct, 1969?

I want to try and establish which payphone Z used to ring dial-a-victim Yellow Cab Co. He was picked up from somewhere very near to Mason and Geary, The Westin Hotel (which in itself I would assume has public payphones within the Hotel itself which Z may have used) area. If He used a payphone on the street, can anyone find the nearest few public booths to Mason & Geary?

Richard

7/28/2015 05:30:13 pm

Good idea, did theatres have payphones in the lobby. Also Alex can I do an article on info you have already provided. ie; Zodiac made the call to the cab company and highlight you have received the 120 page report etc, but nothing more. You'll get the credit of course and a big fat cheque to Welsh Company Limited.

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!

7/28/2015 05:54:17 pm

Yeah go for it Rich, I'll paste under this post the exact wording as it is stated in Hines Report describing His phone call to Toschi and the Info gleaned form this phone call.

Now some may wonder "So some guy calls Insp. Toschi out the blue and claims Hes A Detective himself and Toschi buys it and discusses the case details and facts only the police know??"
The answer is: Toshci and Hines had already met at the time of this call, hence HH confident enough to ring and speak directly to Toschi. They had met after HH had contacted SFPD and spoke to Toschi because HH wanted to get a copy of the Pines postcard. Toschi said He'd mail it to Harvey, Harvey said thanks but no need as He will personally travel to the Dpt to pick it up in person which he then did and met Dave Toschi at the same time.

Richard

7/28/2015 05:55:05 pm

Here is a photograph of the hotel in 1969 from http://www.thezodiackillercase.com/
http://static.wixstatic.com/media/4d0677_4b1af96b6e034f89a4cf72b9da204656.jpg_srb_p_600_415_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb

Alex Lewis, Deplorable at Best!

7/28/2015 06:03:32 pm

If you want to use the direct quote from the report Rich, it is as follows...

"In looking at an area map of San Francisco, I found 217 Eddy Street appeared to only be two to three blocks from where Paul Stine picked up the Zodiac on October 11, 1969.
I then called Inspector Dave Toschi at the SFPD and got more details on the Stine Killing.
Toschi said that they had determined that the killer had called for a cab using the public payphone located at Union Square. Toschi said the cab then picked the killer up and drove to the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets." End Quote.

Richard

7/28/2015 09:47:24 pm

I have done the article Alex, but won't post it until you've checked it over. Tell me if you want anything added, altered or taken away.
The link will be sent to your email address.

Greg

8/4/2015 03:47:19 am

@ 1:16:21 in This is the Zodiac Speaking,Pelissetti says it was 'at that point I 'retook' the description' of the suspect.. Who exactly do you think he retook it from?.. The kids?.. This information seems unclear.. I'm just wondering more about the BMA description and whether there is any possibility that the error in transmission may not have been false and that the killer could have, however remotely possible, actually been a black male adult...

Robin Smith

8/4/2015 04:52:00 am

I just asked the question after reading THE PRESIDIO EASCAPE ROUTE...How long was the cab sitting at Cherry Street before the kids saw and reported it?

I have N0t however ever seen a suggestion that Z was black...and since unlike a N0rmal cabbie murder Z made a point of securing ID for Paul Stine....N0 help there...sorry Greg

Robin Smith

8/4/2015 05:01:15 am

WASHINGTON AND CHERRY is what I was reading when I asked the question...how long was the cab sitting there BEFORE the kids saw and reported it?

Alex Lewis

8/6/2015 03:59:44 am

"I'm just wondering more about the BMA description and whether there is any possibility that the error in transmission may not have been false and that the killer could have, however remotely possible, actually been a black male adult..."

No, He was a White Male. The only witnesses to see the Crime and Killer at the scene were the teens that called the police to report it and so while Armond doesn't specifically say "I then retook the description from the teens and that when I was told it was a white male" I think it is safe to simply assume, by process of elimination, that it was the teens who told him the suspect was a White Male because Nobody else at the scene had witnessed the crime and/or offender. Then you have fellow cop Don Fouke, albeit reluctantly and a Month later, reporting seeing a white male who roughy matched the description of the offender as given by the teens.
There is no doubt that the man responsible for killing Paul was White.

Greg

8/4/2015 05:01:31 pm

Not sure how long it was sitting there before being reported, Robin.. I'm just trying to pursue other avenues of inquiry about the case.. I know the 'co-conspirator' angle doesn't get much credibility, but I have to wonder 'what if'?.. For example, when Zodiac made the call to the police after Blue Rock Springs, he tells us that the phone started ringing the moment he hung it up.. Who was calling this pay phone in the middle of the night?.. Strikes me as odd.. Could it have been an accomplice who'd been given instructions to call him at that location?.. Recall, too, that Zodiac mentioned a negro was walking by as the phone rang.. What if (just speaking in hypotheticals here) Zodiac thought this was a witness who could indict him.. Subsequently, what if he threatened this man's life and coerced him into taking part in a murder - namely, the Stine attack; hence, the reporting of a 'black male adult'.. At the site of the Stine attack, my question is this: who told Pelissetti that the initial description of a black male was wrong and made him change it to a white male adult?.. Was it the kids?.. Maybe there's something more to this.. Maybe there actually was a black male on the scene.. Just throwing out crazy ideas, of course.. But hey, why not?...

Alex Lewis link

8/6/2015 03:47:34 am

Hey Greg, you asked: "For example, when Zodiac made the call to the police after Blue Rock Springs, he tells us that the phone started ringing the moment he hung it up.. Who was calling this pay phone in the middle of the night?"
The answer is: The Operator. Back in them says there was no such thing as 911 Emergency so if you wanted the police you rang the Operator who would then patch you through to the relevant police Dpt. The standard Procedure was for the Operator to disconnect once He/She hears the Caller is connected with the Police but for whatever reason, this Operator stayed connected and listened to the entire call between Nancy and Zodiac. The Operator obviously knew this was someone claiming to have just shot a couple in the Park so it was the Operator who rang the call box straight back as Zodiac had hung up. This is not widely known of but it's absolutely true and so anyone that states only Slover and Slaight have hear'd the voice of Zodiac down the phone is misinformed because there is a third person, the Operator who returned the call to Zodiac seconds after He had hung up.

Greg

8/6/2015 08:30:41 am

Interesting, thanks Alex.. So the police station did not have a direct phone line for people to call them without first going through the operator?.. Didn't know this; was before my time.. I assume the operator was privy to the phone number from which Zodiac was dialing and this is how it was ultimately determined the call came from this location?.. It's my understanding that tracing a call in those days could take up to a full hour (read this recently in an Ann Rule book).. Thanks again!...

Alex Lewis

8/6/2015 09:04:21 am

It was before my time too and I only found out several months back. This is why Officer Dave Slaight, being the rookie back then, had to cover for the lone dispatcher on duty and answer the phone if a call came in. In fact, Dave Slaight said himself in the Documentary that "We had the old type of plug in switchboard that lit up when a call came in."
And yes, the case that started my interest in true crime and serial murders, that of Larry Gene Bell, who would himself phone to taunt not the police, but the family of one specific Victim numerous times. He would call from payphones and SLED (Sth Carolina Law Enfcmnt Dvsn) would trace each call and it would take keeping Bell on the line for several minutes in order to do so.

I can't remember now off hand and don't take this as accurate fact but something in the back of my mind is saying that before the Operator patched Zodiac through to Slover she had requested the payphone and it's number that the caller was calling from. I am sure there is some reference to something along these lines. I do know for sure beyond doubt that Slover mentions the Operator in her report on the call and I'm almost sure she also recalls how it was the Operator came to call back as soon as the call was terminated by Z. Check the Blue Rock Police Report, I am sure it's in there.

Greg

8/6/2015 01:56:49 pm

Let me ask you - during the second call (after Lake Berryessa) did Zodiac also have to first contact an operator before getting his call placed to the Napa police station, to be answered by Dave Slaight?.. If so, this would be another individual who we could add to the tally of those who've heard the killer's voice...

Seems like a bit of freakish thing that the operator who transferred the call to Nancy Slover just happened to stay on the line and listen in the conversation.. You mentioned this was not standard procedure, wonder what caused this operator to overhear the call...

So Zodiac voluntarily gave the operator the number and location of the pay phone he was using?.. That is unusual...

I'm still not 100% on how long it took to trace a call back in those days.. I'd read it would take an hour, yet during the post-Berryessa call officers were able to very quickly arrive at the site of the call box to find prints so fresh they had to be artifically dried.. And as you mention in the Bell case, the call trace would take only several minutes.. By leaving the receiver dangling off the hook Zodiac (unbeknown to himself?) seems to have actually aided investigators in being able to determine the precise location of the phone...

Alex Lewis

8/7/2015 04:54:02 am

Greg I don't have all the answers mate. I like to think I do, but I simply don't lol. But seriously, There was no National Emergency number (911) that everybody knew to dial for police, but you could still call police directly yes, you'd just have to have the specific Agency of Office Tel. No. If you didn't, you'd go through the Operator who would act as the middle man and patch you through to the Dpt you needed.

I don't know, thinking about it, maybe that is why the Operator asked Zodiac where He was and what Payphone He was calling from so as He/She could determine which Agency the caller is calling from within their jurisdiction? I don't know.

And no, it wouldn't be expected to have the other calls also have Operators listening in even if the call was placed via them because as I said, the standard procedure was to have the Operator confirm that Party A is now connected with Party B and their job is done and they were then expected to disconnect. It may have even been a legal requirement for them to disconnect because it may fall under the wiretap legislation and/or the Data Protection Act.

Alex Lewis

8/7/2015 05:27:06 am

Ok Here is mention of the call and the Operator in the Official Police Report on the Blue Rock Incident:

"At 12:47 a Mrs Johnson, PT&T Operator Called. The above call was traced to a coin operated telephone at Joe's Union, Tuolumne & Springs Road. The call was traced by Betty Main who's supervisor would not allow her to make a statement at this time."

As I said, and it's just an educated guess on my part and not something I can say I know, but I would imagine that there were legal issues in eves dropping the private phone conversation of a citizen and Law Enforcement and the Supervisor mentioned in the report was all to aware of this and this may be why the supervisor would not allow Betty Main to give a statement as having done so would also be confessing to that which is/was illegal

Mike

8/11/2015 05:11:03 am

Hi-

A lot to read here but I want to clarify a few points:

1) There is no proof that Fouke spoke to Qvale or anyone else. you can think that and it can be your pet theory but there is no proof it happened.
2) Pelissetti called me in January 2004 and said that Qvale was "eliminated" and he had an alibi. He did not tell me what the alibi was or that KQ was out of the country or area that night. It was KQ who said to me personally in 2006 that he "should have been" in England that night. ABC News had told me in 2001 that they could not place KQ out of the country that night,
3) If Butterfield taped his conversation with Pelissetti, he did not tell me. you are confusing that with another conversation AP had with another guy in 2011.
Mike

Alex Lewis

8/11/2015 11:27:36 pm

In which case Mike, please accept my apology on getting some of the detail mixed up. Was never my intent to mislead nor misrepresent anybody.
That said, I'd like to address your points.....

"1) There is no proof that Fouke spoke to Qvale or anyone else." Never said there was any proof of it, so I don't see what the relevance is to you making this comment.

"you can think that and it can be your pet theory but there is no proof it happened." Thank you, I do appreciate it when others allow me to have a theory on something, especially when they use a hypothetical pet analogy to demonstrate it.
". you are confusing that with another conversation AP had with another guy in 2011." Can't say anything here, this is simply my bad, and again, I apologize. I do tend to find quite a lot of what Arrmond says to be highly confusing especially when your mirror it against the statements of Don.

AP: "However, i subsequent conversations with him He told me that He did stop somebody . . . ."
DF: "Liar! We never stopped the man, and we never talked to him and this is an emphatic statement!"
AP: "Well.....I believe Fouke would be honest but what He wrote in his memo and what He told me happened do not match."
DF: WE DID NOT STOP THE ZODIAC!! We didn't stop anyone! I wish Eric Zelms were alive today to tell you so!"

And in the Documentary T.I.T.Z.S, Don makes the following statement: "Turned Southbound on Cherry St & Saw AP who had responded direct to the scene and He stopped us & said he was loooking for the white male that had just gone down the street. Then there was a brief discussion as to what the suspect looked like and Armond told me 'No,He was a White Male" and I then in reply to this told Armond "Oh shot, in that case I think that I just passed him"
AP: Ummm, No. He did not mention to me that He'd seen or stopped anybody' and in so doing says in one sentence that He believes Fouke would tell the truth then in the next accuses Don of Lying to cover his seeing and speaking to someone and AP suggest that Don is doing this possibly due to his now being under the assumption that man was The Zodiac and AP ends by saying He feels sorry for his former colleague if He believes it was the Zodiac because AP says "I don't think it was."

Robin Smith

8/12/2015 01:36:11 am

Alex

"D F: WE DID NOT STOP THE ZODIAC!! We didn't stop anyone! I wish Eric Zelms were alive today to tell you so!"

I think that's probably why Eric Zelms is not alive today. So he can't tell anyone.

Dirty Harry was mentioned earlier. More fact than fiction.

Robin

Alex Lewis

8/11/2015 11:54:19 pm

I want to let anyone tell me I am wrong Mike, and why in my absolute conviction that these two cops are not concealing anything or know of that which they are not willing and/or allowed to tell us.

As I have said previously, nobody is going to convince me that two serving police officers are lying about the sequence of that nights events and doing so just cause they can. And it is not open to question if the cops lied because from the mouth of ,Mr Fouke himself came the admission "I didn't put it in the report, and I don't think I have ever told anybody." He doesn't tell us here that He didn't list this in his report because He actually had decided to make up a totally different fabricated and untrue version & write this in instead as "Subject last Observed heading North on Maple Street."

You don't see Dick Hoffman and Ed Rust, as an example off the top of my head, refuting each other's claims, denying that what the other said happened actually ever happened and so on, and as I said, there is a reason for it because logic and reason dictate that there simply has to be.

If anybody has any explanation to why the cops may not tell the truth in what are essentially sworn statements of a sworn Cop and tell me why they were likely to lie and then contradict each other all over the place and give them reason and Justification to have done so, be my guest.

Mike

8/12/2015 03:44:18 am

Pelissetti is the one who can't keep his story straight. He tells one person he saw KQ here, he tells another he saw him there and another a third version. Then KQ says he did not see him at all. What is the dynamic between those two? I've spoken to Fouke many times and his story is consistent even if you don't agree with some of the things he did or his reasons for doing them.

I suppose the other poster has proof that Zelms was knocked off to keep him quiet. It was really a risky operation, since they had to get his gun away from him first. Or didn't you know that he was shot with his own gun? What if HE had been in the bathroom and his partner had run out instead of him?

Robin Smith

8/12/2015 04:30:31 am

Mike

I am not a Zodiac expert, far from it. My interest is Larry Kane/Donna Lass/Lake Tahoe Sahara Casino and I keep getting led to SF and Z.

That being said I am simply commenting on what seems inconsistent to me separate from anyone or thing else.

Didn't Z say in one of his notes that two cops had stopped him?

Alex Lewis

8/12/2015 08:00:57 am

Robin...."Alex...refresh me please
Did Z or did Z not say in one of his notes that 2 cops had stopped him?"

He did Robin, yes. Said Cop car pulls up and one of the them call him over.

Alex Lewis

8/12/2015 06:41:44 am

I have to agree with Mike here, if some shadowy figures conspire to have Eric bumped off to ensure He his eternal silence then Fouke should also have fallen out of a 10th story window also.
No, I don't subscribe to the SFPD ordering hits on it's rank in order to protect a serial killer.

However, I would appreciate someone....anyone, if they can justify the sentences of the two who killed On Duty, in Uniform Police Officer Zelms. If a State has Capital Punishment on the menu, then it's almost mandatory to seek such punishment for those who callously and deliberately murder a cop and if, for some reason,, the State does not seek the ultimate punishment of death, then a finding by Jury of guilty will carry a A Life without Parole as a mandatory

Robin Smith

8/12/2015 07:22:20 am

Alex...refresh me please

Did Z or did Z not say in one of his notes that 2 cops had stopped him?

Alex Lewis

10/12/2015 08:44:08 am

Mike, I say this with respect, it's going to get you nowhere and get there fast if your see things in the way you wish to because it then helps to bolter your own agenda. I'm talkingh specifically here about your claim of:
" I've spoken to Fouke many times and his story is consistent even if you don't agree with some of the things he did or his reasons for doing them."
I don't see how this even had a remote possibility to be accurate and true Mike because lets say He's told you one unchangeable and detailed version without exception, He has told n numerous on screen versions and even publicly admitted to outright falsifying the evens and lying in his memo claiming "Subject last observed heading North on Maple.'

If I told you Mike for 30 years without deviation the same thing "I, Mike, am a White Male & am Welsh." Then I give on cam declaration's to BBC that "I am a Native American Indian, Scottish born" then 6 years later I'm informing CNN "I am Jewish and I was born in the Middle East in Israel.' Then Mike while you may declare and do so quite truthfully that "Alex has always told me one consistent ethnicity' then yes I may have, but it's negated now by by running around telling others a story different to what I have always told you.

Just because I may not directly contradict myself to you by changing my account is irrelevant, my consistent account to you is now inconsistent by my default position and comments given to 3rd parties.

Richard

8/12/2015 06:06:24 pm

Donald Fouke on 'Crimes of the Century Pt 2' after he had his encounter with the white male, "As we arrived on Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult, believing that this suspect was possibly the one involved in the shooting, we entered the Presidio of San Francisco and conducted a search on West Pacific Avenue, the opposite side of the wall and the last direction we observed the suspect going."
So Donald Fouke after either talking to Zodiac or passing him stated effectively "West Pacific Avenue was the last direction he observed the suspect going." Not 3712 Jackson Street. Now if this earlier documentary was nearer the truth than 'This is the Zodiac Speaking', we can glean some important information from it.
As Fouke and Zelms were driving away from this suspect either they observed the Zodiac entering West Pacific by looking back or their encounter was on the junction of Jackson and Maple and Zodiac headed off to West Pacific Avenue. If this recollection in 'Crimes of the Century' is true, then Zodiac exited Jackson via Maple. Now let's consider that the furthest up Jackson the encounter happened was 3712 Jackson Street. After departing from this encounter Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms had to travel to the intersection of Jackson and Cherry, continue along Jackson to Arguello Blvd, turn northbound to West Pacific Avenue. All Zodiac had to do after the encounter was walk round the corner and walk the short distance and across the dividing wall (maybe into park). There is no way Donald Fouke could have travelled all that way and backtracked down West Pacific Avenue in time to view Zodiac on that road. It's impossible. So in theory he could already be in the park or entered a house or vehicle with ample time to spare. But it's curious that Fouke stated West Pacific Avenue was the last direction he saw Zodiac going, because it ties in with the logic of scouring the park. However it certainly negates any claim in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' that he learned the change of description from Pelissetti, as he earlier stated that he learned of the change of description on Arguello St. His earlier account also suggests Zodiac did enter West Pacific Avenue via Maple unless Zodiac feigned this and backtracked to Jackson. Also isn't it even more likely he had spoken to Zodiac, because his logical choice after heading down Jackson was to turn down Cherry and head to the crime scene. What was he doing heading to Arguello unless of course he had been directed there by Zodiac saying he had 'seen a man running and waving a gun'.

Richard

8/12/2015 06:55:31 pm

What does tally though is this. Let's say Fouke received the change of description at Argullo Blvd, he then turned east and did a quick reconnaissance of West Pacific Avenue, but failing to find the suspect he did a u-turn and backtracked back to Cherry to approach the crime scene. Remember Pelissetti was the officer who couldn't get on the radio fast enough to inform all other officers of the revised description. Pelissetti then set off ducking and weaving up Cherry, by the time Donald Fouke had completed his excursion of West Pacific Avenue and returned Pelissetti would have been approximately half to two thirds up Cherry where the two officers met. So in all likelihood Fouke did travel down Cherry as Pelissetti confirmed, but only after his detour, so Donald Fouke didn't do one or the other, he did both, but crucially in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' made the incorrect statement of heading south straight from Jackson Street. What he should of said was "we went to Arguello, West Pacific, returned then headed south on Cherry. I am not necessarily saying he was deceptive here, but decided to foreshorten his description of events.
But here's another thing from 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' that backs up what I said above and the idea Donald Fouke did see Zodiac entering in the direction of West Pacific Avenue via Maple and further corroborates the 'Crime of the Century' video. After Donald Fouke's brief conversation with Armond Pelissetti in Cherry Street he stated "We turned around to get to the Presidio and my reasoning on that was because turning down Maple would lead through the Presidio wall directly into Julius Khan Playground."
Now why did he have this reasoning as opposed to returning to 3712 Jackson Street. The reason id because he didn't see the suspect last at 3712 Jackson Street, he saw him heading towards West Pacific Avenue via Maple. There was no reason to use the words "turning down Maple" unless he had been guided to this thought by seeing Zodiac head this way. But in fact this was to be his second search of the area, something he did not allude to, but on both occasions his focus was the Maple Street wall into the Presidio. Also like I said above, if the encounter occurred near 3712 Jackson and had been directed by Zodiac to Arguello Bld, he must have been suspicious enough to have either looked back to see where this man turned or waited outside of the vehicle before commencing, hence the detailed description, right down to the colour of his low cut tan engineering boots and pleated cuffs and his reasoning for returning to the Julius Khan Playground area at the back of Maple.

Richard

8/12/2015 07:38:45 pm

But crucially I come back to Donald Fouke. Zodiac did claim in the Bus Bomb Letter that "2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab....I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them."
If this encounter was not true then Donald Fouke should have turned down Cherry in response to the crime at Washington and Cherry. The only reason to have continued on to Arguello is if he had been directed there by Zodiac, he at this point was still under the allusion he was looking for a black male adult, so if he had saw the white male turn up Maple towards West Pacific, this alone was no reason to suspect anything, carry on up Jackson into Arguello Blvd and east on West Pacific Avenue. Since he was searching for a BMA he effectively would have disregarded this and headed down Cherry Street. The only reason he continued onward towards Arguello St is because he had been directed there, then received the revised description and then acted on his last sighting. Also if Donald Fouke had received the revised white male description at Arguello Street and seen a man fitting this description at 3712 Jackson his first logical choice was to backtrack immediately to 3712 Jackson, not continue on towards West Pacific Avenue on the other side of the dividing wall, but he did, cementing the idea he saw the suspect turn up Maple towards West Pacific Avenue. I believe this almost certainly proves a conversation between Zodiac and Fouke took place.

Richard

8/12/2015 09:00:59 pm

Armond Pelissetti's timeline fits, he claims he arrived 'red light an siren' at 9.55 pm. After ushering the kids to the other side of the street, checking the taxicab and sending out the revised description, he then proceeded up Cherry cautiously. It takes roughly 3 minutes to get to the corner of Jackson and Maple, so after he had done those few things at the crime scene he in all likelihood set off around 9.57/9.58 pm, but went slowly, so we will give him 6/7 minutes to reach Jackson and Maple, with a brief conversation with the man with the dog 4 minutes back, arriving back to the crime scene at approximately 10.07/10.09 pm. He stated in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking', "It was then sometime shortly thereafter that the ambulance crew, the coroner, a fire truck and Inspector Walt Krake of the homicide detail" arrived. Inspector Krake arrived at about 10.10 pm, detailed in the police report, and this IS shortly after 10.07/10.09 pm. The original message over the radio when Pelissetti arrived was 9.55 pm, at this point Donald Fouke was travelling northbound on Presidio Avenue, having just passed Washington Street. The distance from this area of Presidio Avenue to Arguello Boulevard is 0.7 miles, but I will be generous to Donald Fouke and make it 1 mile. Donald Fouke said in relation to his speed "Before I saw him probably about 35-40 mph, slowed down as we passed him, saw it was a white male, step on the gas, 5,10,15 seconds tops. So accounting for this brief time I will average out Donald Fouke's speed to a generous 30 mph from start to end ie: Presidio Avenue to Arguello Boulevard. That is 1 mile at 30 mph. That is 2 minutes travelling time. If he receives the call here of the revised description it must be 9.57 pm. That means Armond Pelissetti sent out the revised description at 9.57 pm or shortly before, if it was relayed. However if Donald Fouke had questioned Zodiac for 30 seconds to 1 minute he would have received the call at 9.58 pm.
So I shall now use 0.7 miles and 35 mph: it takes 1 minute 12 seconds to reach Arguello Boulevard, placing the time at 9:56:12, too early for Pelissetti to have arrived at the Washington and Cherry intersection, parked on the junction, ushered the kids back into the alcove, walked to the taxicab and observed Paul Stine, receive the revised description and relayed it to all other units. This suggests Donald Fouke stopped for a brief time, maybe 40-50 seconds to enable him to be at Arguello by 9.57 pm.

Alex Lewis

8/17/2015 03:40:02 am

I don't know why Rich, but when it come's to Armond and his decision to walk (He did not run, He emphasizes!) after the naughty man, who shot someone dead He shouldn't have, I just have this vision now in my head, because I can be extremely childish in what I find humorous, of Armond giving the alleged update as WMA then wondering how best to pursue the offender taking both his personal safety into account along with which offers the quickest, therefore the better option, to catch up and arrest the absconder before He again vanishes into thin air as seen at LHR previous, and while AP is trying to decide the answer to this, in the background plays.....

https://youtu.be/2JVwo3D72cc

Mike

8/14/2015 04:36:24 am

Pelissetti also says he got back to the crime scene just before Toschi and Armstrong arrived. Toschi got the call at about 10:15 and still had to pick up Armstrong in Park Presidio. They probably got there at about 10:45. What was AP doing for all of that time?

Mike

Richard

8/20/2015 07:20:58 pm

Pelissetti stated in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' after he had completed his search up Cherry Street and down Jackson Street and arrived back at the scene, "It was then sometime shortly thereafter that the ambulance crew, the coroner, a fire truck and Inspector Walt Krake of the homicide detail and then 3,4 or 5 minutes later Inspector Dave Toschi and Bill Armstrong, two of the best arrived"
The victim Paul Stine was pronounced dead by 10.10 pm after the ambulance crew had arrived, Krake responded and instigated dog units etc. So if as Pelissetti arrived back and 'secured' the scene , then the ambulance crew arrived, by his statement he was back at Washington and Cherry slightly before 10.10 pm and based on what he said Krake arrived around 10.10 pm and Toschi and Armstrong no later than 10.15 pm.

Alex Lewis

10/6/2017 06:04:43 am

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Richard

10/6/2017 06:21:49 am

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