AWAY FROM THE LIBRARY

4/30/2018

Here we will take one final look at the October 30th 1966 Cheri Jo Bates murder in Riverside, utilizing the 3D graphics of Google maps to give an overview of the crime scene that evening or night. Cheri Jo Bates lime green Volkswagen Beetle was discovered on October 31st 1966 parked 30 yards past the library entrance, and 75 yards east of the ill-fated alleyway. Whether it remained in this position from the moment she arrived at the library just before opening time, until being discovered by investigators the following day, is open to question. Below is a representation of the Volkswagen Beetle, library annex, the alleyway (drawn into its approximate position), and the movements of Cheri Jo Bates (1 to 5) from the perspective of the November 29th 'Confession' letter.

A Mexican-American student noticed Cheri Jo Bates close to opening time and shortly after: who stated "he knew Cheri Jo Bates and had noticed her in the library the night in question. He said he saw the girl "writing something with a ball point pen" in her blue spiral school notebook." The boy told us he was outside about 5.30 pm, waiting for the library to open at 6, and it was then he saw the girl."
Other students who were acquainted with Cheri Jo said they were in the library between 6.30 pm and 6.40 pm, and did not see the girl during that time.
Walter Siebert stated that "he and a few friends were in the library from 7.15 pm until 9, but did not see Miss Bates, whom they all knew. They said they saw four men dressed in work clothes sitting on a fence across from the spot where Miss Bates' car was found, but they did not know them."
If we believe the 'Confession' letter and tie it alongside these statements, a picture unravels of a woman who likely discharged her books and left the library within a very short time- leaving prior to 6.30 pm. However, according to the author of the 'Confession' letter, he would have effectively disabled her vehicle extremely close to the library entrance sometime between 6.00 pm and when she exited the library. She would then have discovered her disabled Volkswagen and taken up the offer of assistance by this unknown person, walking back past the library entrance, completely dismissing the option of assistance from anybody inside the library, including making a phone call, and traveling into a dark alleyway (despite being afraid of the dark), while simultaneously leaving her car keys in the ignition, windows rolled down and car doors unlocked. Not withstanding the fact, a female eyewitness saw no body in the alleyway circa 9.30 pm, and screams were heard from that location by two earwitnesses around 10.30 pm. One could argue, that if these observations make no sense, then the story depicted by the 'Confession' letter is fiction regarding the timeline it suggests.

There is no guarantee that the Volkswagen Beetle remained in this position upwards of 12 hours until its discovery on the morning of the 31st. Since detectives seemingly operated upon the assumption it did, one could infer that eyewitnesses leaving the library on the evening and night of the murder, saw the Volkswagen Beetle in exactly the same position it was ultimately discovered on the Monday.
If this were the case, and with screams heard around 10.30 pm- then other than abduction- she must have left willingly on foot after departing the library to a secondary destination, either on her own or with an unknown person or party. The problems began four hours later just before the screams were heard. The 'Confession' letter gives the impression of a good Samaritan "offering to help" when Cheri Jo Bates failed to start her vehicle, and she blissfully wandered off with him into a dark alleyway. The added suggestion of "brush offs" in the letter may have wanted to infer that the killer and victim were known to one another and hence her willingness to walk alongside him. Yet this seems too obvious a conclusion to be drawn, focusing the investigation inward to friends and relations, and thereby would not have been wholly relied upon as the truth by investigators- who could easily have formed an opposite stance.
But if Cheri Jo Bates willingly left the library with somebody she knew or had arranged to meet shortly after opening time, and had returned to her vehicle circa 10.30 pm with this person, then it is conceivable the confrontation or disagreement began by her vehicle, and the disabling of her vehicle was integral to it. The condition of her vehicle the following morning may suggest she was preparing to leave for home that night when things took a turn. The sabotaging of her distributor not distinct and separate to her discovering her disabled vehicle, but part of one continuous sequence. Left with little option but to seek help, she headed off to ring for assistance, leaving her vehicle in a condition she otherwise would never have done. She is dragged or forced into the alleyway and the rest is history.
The 'Inside Detective' magazine stated 'Two young girls who said they knew Cheri Jo, gave a taped interview to a crew from a Los Angeles television station. The girls in the interview, said that Cheri Jo had told them Sunday that she was "going to the library to meet her boyfriend." However, Sgt Gren said that while Cheri Jo had met her boyfriend in San Francisco the weekend prior to her murder, the boy was still in the Bay Area at the time of her death. The statements of the two girls were based on hearsay and not on fact Captain Cross told newsmen.'
However, were the two young girls referring to Dennis Highland or somebody else. If Cheri Jo Bates had made alternative plans to meet somebody that evening, could this be our murderer. He may certainly have been known to the young girl and more crucially to the friends of Cheri Jo Bates.

62 Comments

Rubislaw 32 link

4/30/2018 02:00:56 pm

Some interesting thoughts and possibilities,for the evening in question,Richard.

And great aerial photo,also.

There are a number of unknowns,so it seems to come down to a ''plausible fit'',to the evening.

Your mentioning of the ''two young girls'',is a good a start,as any.

The likelihood,perhaps,of Cheri Jo,telling them a little white lie,over meeting her boyfriend [?].

So often is there a suggestion,that Cheri Jo met with a couple,and prearranged,that evening.She might have told the girls a different story,to spare herself the embarrassment of turning the girls down,if they suggested that they tag along with her,for the evening.

So,a possible scenario exists,whereby Cheri Jo's perpetrator,stalks her VW Beetle,that evening,waiting for an opportunity to ''fix'' it.
Then,it's a case of stalking the vehicle further,in waiting for Cheri Jo to return to it.

Whether Cheri Jo's perpetrator was ''Zodiac'',or not,we are certainly looking at a well thought out predator.At LHR,it was stalking the car park,for suitable victims.At Lake Berryessa,it was stalking a particular beach headland,waiting for users of that headland.

Once the Beetle was doctored,then it was a case of ''patience is a virtue'' [?].

Richard

4/30/2018 02:53:44 pm

I always considered the state of her vehicle Rubislaw. If the assailant offered to help her and she had accepted willingly, then I would have expected her to secure her vehicle prior to heading west towards the alleyway. But if she had got back to her vehicle with a male accompanying her, then her vehicle would be understandably unlocked. She may then have rolled the windows on the stuffy vehicle and placed the keys in the ignition. The only reason to then leave her prized vehicle in this condition was if something happened subsequently- a conflict of interests- likely sexual or jealousy driven. She is insistent on leaving, and her male 'companion' pulls the distributor wire as she is attempting to leave. I know this is a lot of ifs and and's, but for what other conceivable reason would a young woman leave valuable vehicle behind, her books on the seat, the doors open, windows rolled and keys in the ignition when voluntarily accepting a lift back home. This leads me into the only viable alternative- that the distributor wire was pulled in the heat of an argument or confrontation, while Cheri was actually witnessing it. She cannot sit there all night, so rushes away to seek help. The vehicle's condition not now her primary concern, moreover her safety. The only other possible explanation is the abduction theory shortly after 6, suggested by Ray Grant. But unfortunately I'm not sold on that for many reasons.

Rubislaw 32 link

4/30/2018 04:06:31 pm

These are interesting options,that you put forward,Richard.

I am aware of the detailed work that Ray Grant,has put in,but am not inclined to go with the early abduction scenario.

I don't feel that there was ever too much of a fuss about any aspect,up to the point of the actual attack.Her perpetrator played the knight in shining armour,when Cheri Jo returned to her vehicle,and realised that it would not start.Since the perpetrator had feigned attempting ti help her,she probably felt inclined to accompany him,at his suggestion,to his vehicle,for tools etc.....rather than just sit in her vehicle,like a helpless ''lemon''.She did take her bag with her,I believe [?]

A big question being,was the perpetrator Zodiac ?

Possibly not....but the murder certainly inspired him,I believe.

These predators factor in the perceived good nature of others,and use it,as part of their plans to succeed.

Door to door salesmen aren't so different.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 03:35:25 am

As you have inferred,Richard,the Beetle,as akin to the abandonment of the Marie Celeste,does take a bit of explaining [?].

The car,though,was parked on Campus grounds,and therefore considered,effectively,private grounds.

And,I might suggest,the bag Cheri Jo took with her,may have originally been holding her library books,that were subsequently found in a car seat.

Do you have any information on the bag,found at the murder scene ? That,perhaps,it was close to empty [?],and may have been seen,as a means to assist her perpetrator,for the possible carrying of tools required to fix her vehicle.

Also.....a strange question,perhaps,....have you seen any autopsy reports,with regard to the contents of Cheri Jo's stomach ?

One would have thought that she would have eaten something,between about 5 p.m. and her death [?].

I think that the likelihood of spending the evening with a ''purported'' couple,is strong.

All these years,this ''couple'' have probably had to keep quiet about that evening,in the interests of the case [?].

Richard

5/1/2018 04:39:07 am

Pathologist F. Rene Modglin stated 'the gastric contents suggest she had eaten a supper type meal probably not more than 2 to 4 hours before death.' In addition the stomach contents contained 'at least 100ml of thick fluid, with particulate food particles in which are easily recognized reasonably large pieces of beef, along with vegetable particulates and/or celery and onion, and what appears to be milk or cottage cheese.' Cheri Jo Bates consumed this meal prior to 5.00 pm, likely around 4.30 pm, raising big questions about the 10.30 pm murder. Her stomach should have been completely empty at this point. The contents of her stomach were obviously compared to food contained within the Bates' household. There is no evidence she eat subsequent to leaving her Via San Jose residence.
The bag that she partially laying on in the alleyway was a 'large red and tan woven straw bag', of which the contents I am unaware.

Karen C

5/1/2018 08:46:32 pm

Very interesting Richard. Just one question: Are your times quoted from actual police reports or from secondhand reports in the media? If they are taken from media reports, this is not all that unusual. If we look at almost any crime that has taken place, we find that the facts and figures that get published by the press often turn out to be wrong. I am not sure if this is due to mis-reporting on the part of the press, who are perhaps too eager for a good story, or if the police sometimes feed the press misleading information, for whatever reasons that may be. I see it time and time again, especially when cases go to court. The information that comes out will contradict the earlier reports in the same newspaper, and that includes details like times and places. The fact is things frequently get mis-reported by the press.

Richard

5/2/2018 01:06:44 am

I would love to use police reports if there were any proper police reports, but in the case of CJB there is limited information. If there were any details about the time of her murder by police, it would be conjecture, because nobody knows for certain. Mistakes do happen in newspapers often, which is why it's best to use several sources from newspapers and magazines, and cross check the information. But I have never taken the police reports or FBI files as completely factual, as they are littered with errors as well. The Lake Herman Road police report is one such example stating BLJ was found 10 feet to the rear of the Rambler- not to mention the police sketches.
There is one section of the FBI files that states CJB was fixed at 6.15 pm. How on earth do they know that? Without discovering her body at 6.15 pm nothing could be fixed. I think the best way of approaching these crimes is to rip up all the conjecture we have ever learnt or been told and build it up ourselves. Case in point being Lake Herman Road and the original thought of investigators the couple were driven from the vehicle by shots being fired into it. But we never consider the possibility they were doing the reverse- attempting to flee by getting into their vehicle when the killer fired at them. In the case of CJB, she may have willfully walked off with somebody she trusted, but then the appropriate action would have been to secure her vehicle before leaving. The idea that the 60s were a time when you could leave everything unlocked and unsecured is a romantic vision of a world that simply didn't exist, like rose-tinted glasses syndrome. There were several newspaper articles that indicated the time of around 10.30 pm when screams were heard by two separate individuals, so without anything substantial to make an unrealistic proposition, I tend to lend weight to it. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, but with 50 years separating now to then, they are the only link we have, and that includes the police.

Karen C

5/2/2018 03:49:03 am

Thanks for explaining Richard. I was not having a go at you. I was just making the point about how misleading press statements can be. And as you say, police reports are also erroneous at times.

Karen C

5/2/2018 04:17:56 am

"The idea that the 60s were a time when you could leave everything unlocked and unsecured is a romantic vision of a world that simply didn't exist, like rose-tinted glasses syndrome."

Funny you say that because friends of mine living in suburban LA often tell me that up until the mid-1970s they never locked their cars. It was certainly that way in many parts of America. I know several people who hitch-hiked all over America in the 1970s and not one of them met with serial killers or foul play. They say that for the most part people were very friendly and would allow them to stay in their barns and get a meal in return for some work. hey also frequently stayed at schools in the night time and used their amenities, often finding buildings unlocked and not a security guard in sight. Sometimes they chatted with the school principal or groundsperson who would say they didn't mind if they stayed there overnight. It was an entirely different era and people were generally a lot less suspicious of others. I am therefore willing to bet that Cheri Jo did not have her car locked when (if?) she went into the library. After all, how did the killer disable her car if he could not open the boot? I am sure even the bugs from that era had a lock on the engine lid latch. So one could also ask: Why did she go into a public library without locking her engine lid? The comment below is very relevant about people having other things on their mind (such as a broken down car, the need to get it fixed, the desire to go home because it is very late, something or someone else distracting her mind). When we consider these things, as well as her possible naivety as a young woman, then not locking a car could be put down to simple absent mindedness. Also she may not have had anything of real value in the car, so walking away for a few moments for whatever reason is entirely plausible. Many people say "I'm not going far so won't bother locking my car." Done this myself when only stopping to post a letter or drop back a book to the library, and that was today, not 1966!

Richard

5/2/2018 05:29:59 am

I know you weren't having a go at me Karen. I welcome different views and even people challenging my viewpoint. I certainly have no preconceived ideas I'm always correct. But the more you delve into this Riverside case the more confusing it gets.
Maybe I'm thinking about our experience too much-we always locked everything. The chances of being broken into are not common events, and being killed by a serial killer extremely unlikely, but why take any chance with the one life you have, when locking the door takes 1 second.

Karen C

5/2/2018 06:04:15 am

It was obviously different in different parts of America. In NYC in the 60s I doubt if many people left their doors unlocked. Once you get into the suburbs in quiet residential areas, you would have found some people not locking up. In rural areas few people would have locked up, especially if they lived a long way off the grid. As is always the case worldwide, as soon as populations reach a certain threshold, then crime starts to become more prevalent and people start locking up.

It also depends on the individual. I once knew a man who lived in Toronto who said he never locked up his apartment when he was out, and that was in 2009. His reason was that he had nothing of value in there to steal. In his view if you left it unlocked and the place looked untidy, then any thieves who happened to come by would be so baffled they would think the place had already been ransacked. lol!

Where I grew up was a quiet residential area in Australia. My parents never locked the house at night in the 60s to mid-70s, and sometimes we went on holidays and left the doors unlocked. Some time around the mid-70s we noticed a few things had gone missing after a vacation. Suddenly crime became an issue. By the 80s there was a prowler in the area. Then fuel got stolen from a car. From that time on everything got locked up tight. Car thefts were also uncommon here until around that time.

As you say, the experience differs from city to city, and from suburb to suburb too.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 05:08:30 am

Thanks a lot,for the information,Richard.

So,her bag seems like a good candidate for having originally contained the books,left in the car.And,the car's ''circumstances '' might be explained by a ''pretend'' attempt,by the perpetrator,and with Cheri Jo's assistance,to start it.

But,this seems all a bit strange,with Cheri Jo's stomach contents ?

That particularly,it is believed that she should have completely digested any food,by a ''presumed'' 10.30 p.m. murder [?].And,would not have eaten anything of significance,if she was still alive,that evening [?].

What an enigma ?

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 05:32:39 am

This ''couple'',it would seem,have to be a key part of a ''presumed'' evening,Richard [?].

She just ate ''home style'' food,at their residence [?].

It really depends if the investigating police,are confident about a 10.30 murder [?].

The location of her murder,is the one ''certainty'' [?].

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 01:39:29 pm

I see that with the autopsy report,that an examination of Cheri Jo's body,at 9.23 a.m. the next morning,put her time of death at between 9 and 12 hours,prior to that examination.

This conclusion was based on extent of rigor mortis and lividity,and body temperature.

So,this puts her time of death,between 9.23 p.m. and 23 minutes after midnight.

The ''10.30 murder'' looks quite persuading,therefore [?].

Certainly not ''early evening''.

Richard

5/1/2018 02:35:28 pm

If we go on body temperature calculations, then we can get this.
Cheri Jo Bates' liver temperature was recorded at 26C and 28C at 9.31 am on October 31st 1966 at autopsy. Algor Mortis is the rate at which a body cools after death, very little during the first hour, but calculated thereafter at 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit per hour, dependent on ambient temperature, body size, clothing etc. The temperature in Riverside that day hit a maximum 97 degrees Fahrenheit, falling to 52 degrees Fahrenheit at its lowest, giving us an idea of ambient temperature during this period. There was also little to no wind at this time, therefore not adversely affecting the rate of body cooling. Taking normal body temperature of 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit and Cheri Jo Bates median liver temperature of 80.6 Fahrenheit at 9.31 am, we can calculate the approximate time of her murder,
The body of Cheri Jo Bates had cooled by 18 degrees at autopsy, but not counting the first hour, this would take 12 hours (18÷1.5). Then if we add back the first hour, it gives us a time period of 13 hours. This would mean Cheri Jo Bates was murdered at 8.31 pm or slightly earlier, as body cooling actually slows down in rate, as it approaches the ambient temperature. If we take the high end measurement of her liver temperature of 82.4 Fahrenheit at autopsy, it places the murder at 9.31 pm, or again slightly earlier, bearing in mind the existence of a "temperature plateau", a highly variable length of time in which the body does not cool.
Taking the bottom measurement liver temperature of 78.8 Fahrenheit, that is a drop of nearly 20 degrees (20÷1.5 =13.33), just over 14 hours since the time of death, including the first hour, and giving us a murder at 7.31 pm.

The bottom estimates tie in with the stomach contents, but not the 10.30 pm murder. We have to remember mind, that these times of death calculations can only give an extremely rough estimate. If the screams were heard at 10.30 pm- this is the strongest evidence of all.I don't believe she likely eat elsewhere, because it's easy to cross check stomach contents to her residence, and digestion rates may vary in individuals, particularly depending on the stress or activity their subjected to.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 01:49:07 pm

If we accepted the ''10.30 murder'',then she must have eaten something like onion soup and beef sandwich,with glass of milk,at around 9.30 that evening [?].

This ties in with ''hospitality'' from a presumed couple,at the couple's residence.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 03:01:48 pm

Some incredibly detailed figures from you,Richard,and appreciated.

I am assuming that,from those figures,we have to keep a wider range of time of death [?].

Am I right in suggesting that you are still persuaded by the ''10.30 death scream'' ?

All I really want to emphasise is,that Cheri Jo must have consumed a supper like meal,about an hour before her death.

Are you happy to throw your hat in the ring,a bit more,on your instincts in any aspects ?

I am inclined to think,that there was an element of rage,at the point of attack.Merely,to suggest that Cheri Jo knew her attacker....perhaps not very well....but enough,for the perpetrator to feel that he had been given the brush off,in the past.

A ''weirdo'' that had a fixation on a beautiful and popular girl [?].

Richard

5/1/2018 03:29:26 pm

10.30 pm sounds good to me. Food, depending on its constitution takes varying times to leave the stomach. Beef being a tough protein based food noticeable in "reasonably large pieces" at autopsy would take much longer to vacate the stomach than carbohydrate based food. The stomach generally empties between 2-5 hours after eating, so if she eat at the latest around 5 pm, then pieces of beef not properly chewed could arguably still be present. The volume of the meal may make a difference in the rate of stomach emptying. A large meal takes longer to empty. It's a tricky one Rubislaw, I tend to focus on the two separate earwitnesses and the female student walking through the alleyway at 9.30 pm and seeing no body, is probably a good enough indicator of a 10.30 pm attack.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 04:01:53 pm

That is ''positive'' on the ''10.30'' attack,which I do go along with.And you do persuade that it's conceivable,that she ate nothing further,that evening.

So,did the Beetle remain in its same parked position,for about 4 hours,including her possible 10.30 murder ?

I just don't feel that any literal abduction of Cheri Jo,took place.

Judith

5/1/2018 03:45:55 pm

Does anyone know if Cheri Jo ever went up to Lake Shasta?

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 04:55:31 pm

I see that is 150 miles north of Sacramento,Judith.

Perhaps someone else can help.

Even if Cheri Jo's murder is never solved,we can at least take some heart,if Zodiac is charged with extortion,in her case.

I have a feeling that Zodiac being brought to book,will reveal Cheri Jo's perpetrator also,if someone else,who is probably now deceased.

Howard_Miller

5/1/2018 07:46:53 pm

"Even if Cheri Jo's murder is never solved,we can at least take some heart,if Zodiac is charged with extortion,in her case."

I don't understand what you are getting at. How could the Zodiac be charged with extortion when we do not know who the Zodiac was? Extortion in a legal sense is usually an offense committed by somebody who is known. There is, as a general rule, a sense of certainty when it comes to extortion, otherwise how do we know we are being extorted if we don't?

From Wikipedia: "Extortion (also called shakedown, outwrestling and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from an individual or institution, through coercion. It is sometimes euphemistically referred to as a "protection racket" since the racketeers often phrase their demands as payment for "protection" from (real or hypothetical) threats from unspecified other parties; though often, and almost always, the person or organization offering "protection" is the same one willing to cause harm if the money is not paid, and such is implied in the "protection" offer. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense."

Rubislaw 32 link

5/1/2018 10:58:01 pm

''Zodiac being brought to book'',Howard....implying,without any question of doubt,that his,Zodiac's identity is revealed.

Why is that so often is the case,that others bring nothing to this site,apart from a deconstructive viewpoint ?

As I have been informed,extortion can embody a wider range of definitions,than you have merely pulled from Wikipedia.

More importantly to the case of the Zodiac Killer,this can include :

''Threats by menacing means''.

And,with the newspapers,of course,Zodiac,at the very least,extorted newspaper space,Space that could have been used for advertising,for example.

Therefore,a financial cost to the newspaper.

Howard_Miller

5/2/2018 03:39:19 am

Mmmkay! My apologies then for asking a question and therefore bringing nothing to this page but a deconstructive viewpoint. At least I can't be chastised for wasting space with meaningless conjecture. LOL!

But somehow I doubt he would be charged for extortion if his identity is ever revealed. There will be many other charges that have priority. I never heard, for instance, if Dennis Rader or Ted Kaczynski were ever charged with extortion. Nor Manson and his "family" who wasted a lot of valuable space making threats in newspapers and on TV.

Karen C

5/2/2018 04:36:04 am

Actually Howard, Sandra Good was sent to jail for posting threatening letters. But I guess that was all they could pin on her. I guess if they had been able to charge her for committing something more serious, the letters would not have been such a priority.

Tom

5/2/2018 02:56:40 pm

Extortion was the premise used by the FBI to become involved.

Karen C

5/1/2018 05:15:19 pm

My feeling has always been that Cheri Jo met with some "trusted" person. Either he was someone she knew, or, more likely, an elderly gentleman who seemed harmless and trustworthy, or he was someone in a position of authority that made her trust him. He could have been wearing a uniform. For this reason I wonder, could he have been army/navy, a security guard or a cop?

As far as an MO goes, I see this ties in well with the later manifestation of the Zodiac, in which he flashes the headlights behind a lone woman in a car. Then pretends to be helpful while actually disabling her vehicle. She proceeds and breaks down again. All is a ruse leading up to an impending attack. The Zodiac sometimes liked to toy with people and trick them. I think in the later scenario the fact that the woman had a baby seemed to throw him off tangent enough for her to escape.

Howard_Miller

5/1/2018 08:56:41 pm

It is an interesting fact that when people break down, especially at night, there is a tendency for them to panic. In such a state they become more vulnerable and also more trusting. It is an interesting aspect of the human condition. So it is feasible that if some well dressed, smart looking man wearing glasses happened to be walking past at the very moment Cheri Jo realized her car would not start, she may have saw her "opportunity" and jumped out and asked this person to help, without giving too much concern for her safety. The only thing on her mind was to get her car started again so she could make it back home. The person may have seemed kind and friendly and very helpful to the point that she felt totally at ease with him. Serial killers and often cunning and manipulative and can be the world's greatest deceivers. They only reveal their true identity at the point of attack or a few seconds prior. By that time it is already too late for the victim to have time to process the sudden change in personality, or for that matter, flee.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/2/2018 04:09:21 am

I agree with you,Howard,and you have put it very eloquently.

That's how I see it for poor Ms.Bates,on the night in question.

Howard_Miller

5/2/2018 04:32:07 am

Thanks Rubislaw. For some reason I was thinking of that cold and vicious UK serial killer Joanna Dennehy and the way she walked up to those two men on the street, seducing them with fake pleasantries, then attacking them suddenly and without mercy. Cheri Jo's killer was no less vicious and brutal in my estimation.

Judith

5/2/2018 06:18:08 am

News sources in Sacramento are claiming they are going to begin to submit Zodiac DNA to the genetic website that matched the East area rapist. I am not sure that they have a profile to submit, but it has brought back to life attempts to create a profile and get it submitted to this website. It is now closing in on Zodiac. They will find out who he was.

Karen C

5/2/2018 03:40:01 pm

As many will say: "About bloody time!"

It's amazing how if someone inquires about the Zodiac case at a Sheriff's office, they are likely to be told in no uncertain terms that it is a "cold case" or "verging on a cold case". And as such they will frequently express a complete lack of interest.

I can only guess there are detectives working with D.A.s who have kept the ball rolling on the Zodiac case, albeit it slowly and in "fits and starts". I am sure that with renewed interest in GSK, the Zodiac case will suddenly get a much needed boost.

The thing is if they do not have a DNA profile of the Zodiac, they really have not tried hard enough. They should conceivably be able to find trace amounts on the material evidence, from letters, envelopes, stamps, and the clothing of the victims, ropes used to bind victims, anything left behind at crime scenes, etc. etc. The Zodiac's DNA will be there, hair, skin particles, perhaps even his blood, and even a few traces can, through a process of inclusion and exclusion, lead to a more complete profile.

I recall about 6 months ago somebody posted on one of these blog pages: "Why don't the police just go the Ancestry.com and find a match?" It is interesting that this is exactly the method LE used to catch the GSK! How uncanny! I am probably fooling myself, but my immediate thought on hearing this on the TV news was "Wow, I wonder if someone in LE read that post and thought it was a good idea so acted on it?" I can't remember who it was who suggested that. Kudos to whoever it was!!!

Rubislaw 32 link

5/2/2018 08:26:57 am

There seems to be so much going on,Judith,and ought to be,for the good.

It may just be that the designated authorities,just want to be sure that they don't charge EAR/GSK with a crime,committed by the Zodiac,or someone else.

But that his,Zodiac's name is brought up,is good for keeping his profile,high.

On a speculative note,there are still ''pending'' possibilities,elsewhere.

For all our ''sleuthing'',we are still part of the ''chattering classes'',and I will certainly post something,at this site,if I hear more.

For now,perhaps we can set aside the expression ''False Dawn'' [?].

Or,maybe not.

Judith

5/2/2018 10:00:48 am

Riverside needs to submit what they have. Including the mtDNA from the FBI.

Sully link

5/3/2018 12:49:01 am

These Ancestry.com companies have taught LE to connect the DNA dots ie: GS Killer DeAngelo. Sicko was a small town cop twice so they had him on file, but did O DNA research via outside help until he was 72 and almost dead. This case helped me understand why Zodiac, along with so many cases go unsolved for decades and become 'cold cases.'

Riverside Police was the best example of HOW NOT TO solve crimes when examining the Bates murder. Barney Fife wudve done a better job handling all the key evidence than RPD did.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 04:13:28 am

On a matter of reservation :

We,the public,are beginning to become informed,as to how Mr.Holes was able to use Ancestry.com,in order to narrow the field down to just a handful of potential candidates,as being the EAR/GSK.

Then,official L.E. took over,which led to the arrest of Mr.DeAngelo.

But,this is groundbreaking sleuth work,let alone processing by L.E.

There seems to be a good chance that Mr.DeAngelo's defence team will instruct him to plead not guilty,and effectively,throw the means of investigations into doubt,in terms of legitimacy.

It may well be deemed legitimate,in a court of law,and Mr.DeAngelo subsequently found guilty.But then,on appeal,the matter may be sent up the ladder,to the Supreme Court.

The main point being,this case could drag on for years.

Richard

5/3/2018 04:37:26 am

My guess Rubislaw this coward will plead guilty because of the overwhelmingly evidence against him. The thought of families enduring an arduous drawn out circus of lawyers cashing in, will likely take a plea deal if they take the death penalty off the table. This guy without doubt killed more than 12, and has this as a bargaining chip in closing other cases for investigators. Besides, this coward is 72- a life or death sentence is a token gesture- he will not live long enough to make a death sentence a meaningful exercise.
They should put this coward in a darkened cell and beat the living daylights out of him each and every day for the rest of his meaningless existence. A trial just gives this pathetic worm more attention.

Karen C

5/3/2018 05:33:11 am

Psychologists involved in profiling often like to keep these people alive for as long as possible in order to find out what makes them tick. Unfortunately this tends to give the rest of their lives a sense of meaning. Keeping them alive like some kind of museum relic under lock and key tends to make them seem "special", as if they are some kind of national treasure. Rader for instance seemed to relish all the fuss and attention. It boosts their inflated egos enormously. But there is a positive side to putting these pieces of scum under the microscope. LE can learn a lot from them and the information gathered can potentially help with profiling future cases involving serial killers. GSK was prolific and able to change his MO while also slowly progressing his crimes over time in terms of magnitude, scale, and intensity. These apparent changes in MO are rare and very unusual and highly suggestive of a high level of intelligence and/or planning. The Zodiac was potentially a similar "kind" of individual to GSK. Not the same of course, but in some ways similar I think. We may yet learn a great deal from this man, if he is willing to talk. Beating the living daylights out of him each and every day may not give him much incentive to talk.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 04:23:19 am

I would suggest further that,however much we would like to see the Zodiac brought to justice....let us hope that he is not ensnared,in similar fashion to Mr.DeAngelo.

There might even materialise,in the future,a backlog of criminals,whose arrests will be suppressed,waiting for an ultimate ruling,on the EAR/GSK case.

''Brave New World'' may hold more pitfalls than we can imagine.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 04:57:38 am

Yes indeed Richard.We have to hope that Mr.DeAngelo's defence team,if aware that he is truly ''banged to rights'',will not play the ''technical card''.

More probable might be that they play a ''mental health card''.

Judging by his first appearance,for pre-trial hearings,he seems to be doing his best impression of a dementia patient [?].

Karen C

5/3/2018 05:45:15 am

Yes, it's a similar defence strategy that was used by Nazis who had their day in court following the war. By the 1980s we were seeing some very old men finally having their day in court. It did at the time seem rather pitiful to those watching the televised broadcasts, and so by playing the dementia card his defence team can potentially win them some much needed public "sympathy", albeit it misguided. Then in court comes the inevitable responses to questions: "Sorry I do not remember." "I do not recall." etc.

As you say, this trial could potentially drag on endlessly for years.

Judith

5/3/2018 06:30:34 am

Well according to people who lived here locally he was quite functional as a mechanic up until 1 month ago when he retired. They worked beside him for 28 years. He owns a home with perfectly manicured front yards, while taking care of a daughter and her husband and a granddaughter. He is hardly feeble. But Satan has a lovely way of disguising himself, doesn't he? Let the truth be told. Too bad they get caught him this way. I don't see how on Earth any defense attorney could claim that his matching DNA should not have been discovered.This is the state that nursed Charlie Manson to death. Screw him and the dead horse's ass he rode in on.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 01:19:14 pm

Very interesting information on DeAngelo,Judith.

Yes,I'm sure most of us feel the way you do,about it.

Some ''golden handshake'',on his retirement ?

A pair of handcuffs,courtesy of the cops.

Tom

5/3/2018 02:27:58 pm

Yes mam, let God analyze his brain at the appropriate time.

Karen C

5/3/2018 05:35:59 pm

Re The Zodiac, if they identify him and he is still alive, I want them to keep him alive just long enough so he can tell us the solution to that damned mind-boggling 340 cipher!! ;-)

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 06:52:13 am

Indeed Karen,however much it hurts,we have to accept that Mr.DeAngelo's defence team have a legal and ethical obligation,to do the best,for him.

One slight distraction in the last couple of days,is this report that two Zodiac letters,in the custody of the Vallejo Police,have been sent to a forensics Lab for examination.

I really do wonder about the truth of this report.

What,one might ask,were two original Zodiac letters doing,in the Vallejo Police's custody ?

It would not be a surprise if the Vallejo Police had copies of all Zodiac correspondences.But,two originals[?].

All originals should be under lock and key,in either Sacramento or Washington D.C.

If this report is true,it reflects further,suspicions that the original Zodiac investigation,ended up in complete disarray.

Are we really to believe that original Zodiac correspondences,are scattered all over California...and beyond [?].

Any further thoughts on this,would be appreciated.

Judith

5/3/2018 08:13:43 am

Yes

Richard

5/3/2018 08:43:35 am

It seems odd that off the back of the GSK, they now are confident of finding viable DNA and have now sent envelopes off for analysis. Why on earth weren't they confident of this before, irrespective of ancestry records. The idea of generating a full genetic fingerprint or profile of Zodiac from stamps and envelope seals has been touted for years. Why now the confidence. Yes, the ancestry thing has sparked new interest, but they still had CODIS before this, which arguably could generate a match from a full DNA fingerprint. But seemingly they were not bothered. We have also had familial DNA matches for years, where the Zodiac's DNA could have been matched to somebody related to him (if they were in CODIS and had their DNA on file for an offence). Didn't investigators think this was a good enough route to take, to invigorate them into getting a full profile of Zodiac years ago. The mind boggles.

Howard_Miller

5/3/2018 04:45:22 pm

The mind does not really boggle for me.

Richard, dare I say it, this was all due to some kind of endemic laziness that manifested from an historically-entrenched lack of co-operation between jurisdictions. Failing outright laziness I would suggest procrastination to be the likely answer to the problem.

The odd thing about the Zodiac case is it became too highly publicized. It became linked to a kind of "proto" reality TV show starring Melvin Belli in a leading role, with a call emanating from the local lunatic asylum; then it got linked to Hollywood movies and countless books based on countless suspects, most of which read more like works of pulp fiction than fact. These kept the pulp mills of the tabloid press churning. Then all of this messy plethora spilled out into numerous internet forums and evolved. The Zodiac took on a life of its own.

Meanwhile, against this very peculiar background, we have the real life police who had to deal with this media circus while remaining sane and functional.

New crimes came on the scene which were arguably easier to solve. The Zodiac case had been mired down in a scandal involving the chief detective and the best suspect got ruled out when his prints and handwriting failed to match with those in the evidence.

Basically Zodiac became a "dirty" word in Bay area police departments. Few wanted anything to do with it. Most preferred to "let sleeping dogs lie" and were content that the evidence was safely buried out in the backroom archives some place. Only a few selected obsessed souls like Graysmith and possibly Voigt were allowed to gopher through them on occasion. The Zodiac became a kind of funny anachronism and the significance and seriousness of people having been murdered seemed to somehow get lost amidst all of the media hype. The case was seen as something "too hard", "probably unsolvable" and, if you value your reputation, "best left alone".

Jack Sprat

5/3/2018 05:15:37 pm

Jeez Louise, Sandy Betts' ex must be shivering in his boots right now. He had better hurry up and find that damn costume in the sewing box before the cops storm his house armed with a search warrant. After all this is highly valuable evidence and "that'll learn him" for being so unkind to Sandy for not coughing up the sewing box sooner. LOL!

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 08:45:02 am

This business of who holds custody of the original Zodiac correspondences,is most mystifying.

In theory,the F.B.I should hold them,under ''Archive Extortion'',and make them available to the CA DOJ,on request.

It certainly appears to be the case that the FBI hold all correspondences,to my knowledge,that we refer to,as ''unconfirmed''.This includes the Bates correspondences,they acquired from the Post Office fraud department.And,right through to the two 1990 correspondences.

NCIS Washington hold all military records on ''historical'' Zodiac suspects and acknowledged P.O.I.'s.

Naturally,many of us are aware if Mr.Voigt's recent claims of examining original correspondences.But,beyond certain assurances,can he really be sure [?].

One would have thought,that there would be something very wrong,and particularly with a case of the magnitude of the Zodiac Killer,that the correspondences are ''scattered to the four corners'' [?].

Howard_Miller

5/3/2018 04:55:53 pm

Well said Rubislaw! Why was the evidence never put together? Why scattered to the 4 winds? Is it because the case never went to trial and therefore just got forgotten?

In Australia we often have enquiries into cold cases, which forces all of the evidence to be put together, but these are generally only held if the living relatives band together and make written requests and very public demands for an enquiry. In America they do not seem to hold such enquiries as a matter of legal precedent, and thus, things just tend to get forgotten... at least this is the way it appears to me, a complete outsider looking in. Or is the case more like swept under the rug to be "neglected" rather than "forgotten"? One wonders if any of the relatives ever made such legal requests for a full enquiry into the case, so that all of the evidence could be compiled and re-examined in a fresh light? It would appear that this never happened(?)

Karen C

5/3/2018 05:03:48 pm

Oh God, don't get me started on Mr Voigt and his apparent ability to pluck anther rabbit from the hat! Doesn't he also claim to have three Richard Gaikowski letters that he believes matches the Zodiac letters perfectly? Or are they Zodiac letters that he claims match Gaikowski's handwriting? The details in Voigt land are always kept rather secretive and therefore obscure, filed somewhere with his "too fragile to play" Blaine tapes and alleged Sasquatch footage. *eyes rolling*

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 09:02:45 am

Yes Richard,the mind certainly boggles.

Judith

5/3/2018 10:47:21 pm

All these law enforcement agencies have been hoarding their evidence for years. He counted on the different jurisdictions not cooperating with each other.
Here is my concern, if you get DNA off of letters, how do you prove the person who sent the letters was the actual killer? Lake Herman Road : no DNA evidence. Blue Rock Springs: no DNA evidence. Lake Berryessa: A few years back the Napa Co. Sheriff's ran their evidence through the Richmond crime lab and I was told directly by the sheriff's department that they were not able to retrieve any kind of decent DNA profile. San Francisco: potential DNA evidence from that crime scene? Cheri Jo Bates: potential DNA evidence from the crime scene. Yes. The thing about the East Area Rapist was that he left semen at various crime scenes linking him directly as the Killer. That was the DNA profile that was used.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/3/2018 11:55:52 pm

Certainly true,Judith,that a high probability of the Zodiac counting on the different jurisdictions,not cooperating with each other.

In an observation basis,I think that the SFPD and VPD did get along well.But,there were few that did.

When it comes to examining the chain of command,the CA DOJ,were supposed to be at the top.One could make excuses for them,such as finding themselves having to introduce the FBI,into the field of investigations,and expecting all the local forces to just go along with this,unfettered.

It just doesn't work well,in real life,and the CA DOJ should have started to flex their muscles,if the local forces weren't cooperating fully.

So,on a blame game,the CA DOJ appear to have been weak [?].

All this DNA/no DNA business is just talk,really.I am sure that there are linkages found.Probably in small groupings,like two murders,or a letter and a murder.It's up to criminologists and prosecutors,at the CA DOJ to put a viable prosecution case,together.

But I do believe that the point should be made that a solving of this case,may well come about through further outside assistance.The best chance of a resolution is,that the Zodiac killed outside of the State of California,also.If so,then further incriminating evidence can be brought into play.

This traditionally held belief,among Bay Area dwellers that '' He may be a monster,but he is ''our'' monster.''.....needs to be set aside,once and for all.

Judith

5/4/2018 07:01:36 am

Yes. Well, I place my suspect Peter all the way up to Vancouver British Columbia and all the way down to Southern California. The Zodiac claims to have also killed in the state of Nevada. That technically could include South Lake Tahoe. Let's just say he was a West Coast kind of guy. It will take a lots of detective work to pull this needle out of the haystack. But now they have a magnet. Godspeed.

Howard_Miller

5/5/2018 05:36:07 pm

Judith, this is probably nothing, but did Peter ever have odd sayings that were either uncommon or only he used them, in particular things like "Dickitty chinga", (or "Zicketty dinga"or similar), and "How in Horace?" (instead of saying "How in hell?") etc.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/4/2018 11:23:26 am

Indeed,as you refer to Peter,having been outside California,and suspected him of bad things,in British Columbia.

And with regular Zodiac enthusiasts,the name ''Donna Lass'' is never too far away from a mention.And,a possible Nevada link.

If Zodiac was her perpetrator,I always think that she was the one victim,whose body he felt that he had to conceal.Zodiac seems to have normally have been a ''discarder'' and deserter of bodies.He just needed to get away,and if possible,confuse investigation into his absconding.

But,with regard to beyond California,it could be a lot further away,than some realise.

I am sure that Zodiac was bright and educated.These people are curious,by nature,and tend to like to travel.

''Broaden their horizons'',both literally and figuratively.

Rubislaw 32 link

5/4/2018 11:44:23 am

Of course,I sometimes forget that I blame Zodiac for the murder of Joan Webster.And,her body was concealed under a pile of logs,which remained undiscovered for nine years.

Hamilton,Massachusetts,November 1981.

Unlike Penn,I do not blame Michael O'Hare.

If Zodiac was responsible for Ms.Websters death then,interestingly,it makes him the No.1 arson suspect,for ''The great fire of Lynn 1981''.

Howard_Miller

5/5/2018 05:47:44 pm

I think we have all at times suspected the Zodiac of committing crimes far outside his known "patch". Whether he came from outside that patch originally or extended himself from within it, is the big question. I have wondered about the possible connection with the unusual spate of killings at Stanford University or nearby for instance. I have also considered some known distant killers as Zodiac possibilities, especially when we look into their backgrounds and realize they were living in California at the time; and in one case at least, he was potentially only an hours drive away from Riverside. The thing is serial killers kill. It is what they do. If ever they were living in an area and their were abductions, missing people, or murders that seem to match their MO, it would be unwise to not consider them as possible suspects.

Karen C

5/5/2018 06:00:24 pm

Oh yes, the dangers of amateur sleuthing became all too clear re the Penn saga. Poor Michael O'Hare, I really felt sorry for the guy. From what I know about him, he seems more worried about the imminent effects of Climate Change then bothering with ciphers and running about the place in a freaky costume terrorizing people. LOL! He must have really wondered what strange universe his accuser Penn had descended from!! That whole radian/road map/Mt-Diablo thing was just crazy gibberish penned by a mad man. But somehow Penn thought he had made complete sense of it, and his rather deluded conclusions were so exacting that the line he drew on the map pointed straight to O'Hare's office. Haha!
It is indeed possible for reason to lead us astray, especially if our reasoning is fundamentally flawed and based on false premises.

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