A RING OF UNTRUTH

10/19/2018

Here I will tackle the question of the Blue Rock Springs phone call, traced to the Springs Road and Tuolumne Street payphone on the morning of July 5th 1969. The Zodiac Killer stated in the August 4th 1969 'Debut' letter, that "the man who told police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was in this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cop when he was walking by. When I hung the phone up the damn thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car."
Despite the fact that there was no mention of this individual in the police report, and his supposed description of Zodiac and his vehicle never surfaced in the newspapers, the debate regarding his existence rages on.

This negro male individual became the perfect eyewitness for Zodiac, tying the phone call and brown car into one neat package. The Zodiac Killer attempted to authenticate this individual by giving us his color, age and mode of dress - along with the convenient timing of a phone call which drew attention to him and his brown car. How absolutely unfortunate for the Zodiac Killer to have his vehicle confirmed by this individual as brown, just like the recollection of surviving victim Michael Mageau. This selling job should be viewed with skepticism, when we consider the tracing of the phone call by ring-back.

The Zodiac Killer described in his own words, that once he "hung the phone up" it began to ring. This must have happened almost immediately, because the negro male (according to Zodiac) was "walking by" the phone when it rang, which caused him to notice both Zodiac and his vehicle together. The premise of the following, is that Zodiac is selling us a big fat red herring and he wasn't in his vehicle. He had driven home and had walked back to the payphone to place the call. The introduction of a brown vehicle, designed for purpose, and give the impression that Zodiac could have driven anywhere after the payphone call - and the proof is in the police report, time-stamped at 12:47 am.

But before we discuss the police report, here are a few commentaries by some Zodiac researchers.
In 'The Cases That Haunt Us' by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, they stated "It took seven minutes for Pacific Telephone to trace the call to a payphone in front of a service station".

In 'Unsolved in America' by by Harold Schechter, Lee Mellor, Michael Newton, Kim Cresswell, Aaron Elliott, Robert Hoshowsky, they stated "Within an hour, the call had been traced to a payphone outside Joe's Union Station".

In 'The Hunt for Zodiac: The Inconceivable Double Life of a Notorious Serial Killer' by Zodiac researcher Mike Rodelli, he stated "Several minutes later the call was traced back to a phone booth located at Joe's Union 76 Station in Vallejo".

The question that has to be asked - is that, if the trace was achieved after several minutes, or even seven minutes, why was Zodiac still at the payphone when the ring-back occurred. He clearly stated "the damn thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car." If this were the case, then are we to conclude that the Zodiac Killer after hanging up the telephone, remained alongside his vehicle by the payphone for several minutes until police traced the call and rang it back. This clearly doesn't stack up. That is why we know he is lying. The whole negro eyewitness story of a man spotting his "brown car" was designed to divert attention away from the truth - that he was on foot and lived nearby.

Even if the call was traced within 30-40 seconds, how could the Zodiac have heard the phone ring. As soon as he had hung up the phone (bearing in mind his claims of a negro eyewitness and brown car), he would have immediately returned to his vehicle and driven away. He would have been out of audible range. If the call was traced fairly quickly, or if the call was traced after several minutes, a killer in a car would have been long gone. But if the killer lived nearby and was on foot, he could easily have heard the phone ring as he was walking away. The distance he can cover is reduced, keeping him within earshot of the payphone for longer.
Below is an example of the distance the Zodiac Killer could have traveled on foot, putting him within audible range of the payphone. He could have traveled further than the examples shown below and still have heard the payphone ring.

If you believe the Zodiac researchers above, then the only feasible way the Zodiac Killer can hear the payphone ring after several minutes, is if he is walking away from the intersection of Springs and Tuolumne, negating his claim of being in his vehicle. This could have wide reaching implications regarding the home location of our killer as of July 5th 1969. Here is a further angled view of the location.

What one has to ask themselves, is which was more likely in 1969 - a call traced to the payphone in about 1-5 seconds, or a call traced to the payphone after 30 seconds, or upwards of a minute. The answer may lie in the police report. This may back up the statements of the Zodiac researchers above.

Page 13 of the police report stated "At 12:47 am Mrs JOHNSON PT&T Operator called. The above call was traced to a coin operated telephone at Joe's Union, Tuolumne and Springs Road. The call was traced by Betty Main whose supervisor would not allow her to give a statement at this time."
It states that Mrs Johnson called the police at 12:47 am to report the call had been traced to Joe's Union Gas Station. But what time was the actual call traced using ring-back.
This was an urgent matter- a killer had just rang in to Vallejo Police Department at 12:40 am via the operator. If they had rang back the payphone immediately, as Zodiac claimed, and traced the call by at least 12.41 am, why on earth, considering the gravity of the matter, would Mrs Johnson wait 6 minutes before calling the police. One would suspect they would have called the police the instant they had traced the call. The fact that they called the police at 12:47 am, would indicate they had just traced the call moments earlier. Had this been approximately 12:46 am and Zodiac heard the payphone ring, we would have to assume he was still at the payphone over 5 minutes after he hung up. Having just committed a heinous crime at nearby Blue Rock Springs, and made a phone call to Vallejo Police Department, situated in close proximity to the payphone, do we really believe that he just sat by the payphone in excess of 5 minutes.

But after 5 minutes, had he walked away from the payphone, he realistically should have been out of earshot, as he would have been in a vehicle. However, if he lived in a residence within earshot of the payphone, it wouldn't have mattered when the phone rang back. He would always be in audible range. Was this why the Zodiac Killer was so eager to convince police he was in his vehicle alongside the payphone? Had the police interviewed neighbors close to the payphone about anything they heard or saw that night? Was the residence of the Zodiac Killer closer to the payphone than we ever could have imagined, and the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter was the perfect opportunity to paint a completely different picture of the events that morning.

Nobody

10/19/2018 05:47:00 pm

I am old enough to remember those damn contrary pay phones.

Sometimes when you hung up after talking to someone the phone would indeed give a reverse "ting". Occasionally it was longer and more like a "ting-a-ling" and would be sufficient to make you pick up the phone again. But nobody would be there and you would only get a dial tone. You could also occasionally get this extra "ting-a-ling" on home phones too when you hung up. I am no expert but I can only guess it was something to do with the wiring on those old analogue systems, and some phones seemed more prone than others. Perhaps it was something to do with residual current in the line or a small glitch in the circuitry.

I did ask a telephone technician one time who worked on the phone lines back in those days. He replied that it did indeed happen quite frequently on some lines. If one caller cut the connection quickly while the other person was still holding the receiver or talking this would occasionally cause the disconnected phone to give a little ring.

I have no idea what kind of phone lines they were running in California at the time, but phone lines everywhere were basically just an electrical circuit running at around 3-9 volts, sometimes lower, sometimes higher.

I recall a smart kid next door to us made a plug to fit on his phone line that he had connected to a DC light bulb. During power failures he would plug into the phone line and had just enough light to read a book.

Another thing to consider is that analogue switchboards used in offices like police stations often had to have their own power connection which was needed to manage the switchboard. Many were battery operated but I am sure by the late 60s many were powered by DC voltage converted from an AC supply by means of a transformer.

If the caller was connected to a switchboard which may have been running from its own power source this could certainly explain the extra ting the phone produced when the payphone caller hung up suddenly. For some reason hanging up very quickly was one of the things that could cause this "reverse ring".

At night time and at a pay phone I can imagine this "ting-a-ling" would have been loud enough to cause someone walking by to stop and briefly take notice.

It seems unusual to me that the police would have been able to phone back the instant the caller had hung up the phone. There would almost certainly have been a slight delay before they rang the number back. These were the days of analogue technology after all.

Richard

10/20/2018 04:58:35 am

Even if they rang back after 30 seconds, I cannot see how it takes somebody this length of time to return to the vehicle parked next to the payphone and pull away. The longer the trace, the more unlikely this 'Debut of Zodiac' has any ring of truth. The longer the trace, the further Zodiac should be from the payphone. If he heard it ring after 5 minutes, he was either in a nearby residence, or hiding somewhere nearby waiting for police to charge from VPD, along Springs Road to the parking lot.

Nobody

10/20/2018 05:35:09 am

I agree Richard it is a dilemma. Wasn't the phone left off the hook when the police arrived? This suggests to me that if the phone gave a couple of reverse tings the killer must have picked it up again. Probably by that time the police had started to run a trace. The line may have been dead (no dial tone). Confused or frustrated the Zodiac may have simply dropped the receiver, walked over to his car and drove away. My feeling is he was already long gone when they made the call back. BUT, and this is the BIG "BUT" that just doesn't make sense, because if a "call back" was made, the phone should have rang.

How could a phone ring if it was off the hook???

Another odd thing that sometimes happened with those older phone systems is that you could dial a number and it would indeed seem to be ringing on the other end. But that did not mean a phone was actually ringing. This happened to me one time when a relative had decided to get rid of his phone because he considered it was too expensive. I tried to ring him on several occasions and I did indeed get the sound of a phone ringing in my receiver. But no phone rang at my relative's house because he had no phone. I reported the fault to a phone technician who informed me the number was still connecting in the main exchange as a small flashing light. He had to manually go to the exchange and remove the connection. So I guess the whole unusual set of circumstances could possibly have resulted from a glitch in the wiring and circuitry of the times. I admit it does seem unusual. Apart from a technology problem or someone telling a lie, I really cannot explain it.

The Zodiac would hardly hang around for 5 minutes for the phone to ring, pick it up and leave it off the hook. That scenario just doesn't make sense, as you say.

Richard

10/20/2018 05:57:10 am

The phone wasn't off the hook. It was rang back- which is what Zodiac stated. In his next crime he left the phone off the hook. He did this probably because of what happened at the Springs and Tuolumne payphone.

Nobody

10/20/2018 03:47:19 pm

DOH! You're right of course. I always get those two crime scenes mixed up.

Well it goes without saying that if the phone gave a reverse ting, it could have been enough to make a passer by look around and take notice. What happened to the Zodiac? Well that is easy. He left and was long gone before the operator traced the number and called back.

I don't think you really understand what I meant by the anomalous ring. Believe me, it did happen sometimes with those old phone systems. The problem was with the phone circuitry itself and had nothing to do with people tracing calls or phoning back.

Oh well I tried to explain it. Looks like I failed. Or do people prefer unexplained "mysteries"? :)

Cheers.

Richard

10/20/2018 03:56:05 pm

I understood. And I appreciate what you are saying.

RTF

10/20/2018 05:44:16 am

Another fly-in-the-ointment here is that the call wasn't "traced" at all, in the sense we understand it in recent times.

Z was connected to Slover by operator Betty Main. As Horan points out, "If the system in Vallejo was not yet upgraded to TSPS, then the call could easily have come from ANY payphone."

i.e. Operator asks for caller's number. He gives her the number of the Tuolumne and Springs phone booth (which Main notes down) - but is actually calling from another payphone.

So, when the cops ask the phone company the origin of the call (and to make a callback), they check their paperwork and callback the phony number, and supply the cops with the false location as the origin.

And this scenario makes sense, as operators could most likely stay on the line - furtively listening in to interesting calls - while patching a call through. So, if Z suspected this, he wouldn't want a nosey operator ID'ing and passing on the location or calling back immediately, if he gave the correct payphone number.

I have worked as an operator in more recent times, and staying on the line while an emergency call is in progress is not uncommon - sometimes the police ask you to (especially, if a child is calling etc.).

Nobody

10/20/2018 05:49:03 am

Thanks RTF. That does make sense, and may even help explain the phone that was left off the hook. If Zodiac did indeed pull this kind of stunt he was obviously a smart cookie. He knew how things worked and how to exploit the technology of the time to his advantage.

Nobody

10/20/2018 03:49:34 pm

Delete above comment.

Richard

10/20/2018 06:07:20 am

"i.e. Operator asks for caller's number. He gives her the number of the Tuolumne and Springs phone booth (which Main notes down) - but is actually calling from another payphone."

If the Zodiac gave a false number ie Springs/Tuolumne number, but was ringing from another payphone, he wouldn't have heard the payphone at Springs/Tuolumne ring under callback, as he claimed in the 'Debut' letter. He would have been somewhere else.

RTF

10/20/2018 10:26:55 am

Yes, or... he could have been bluffing if he'd researched the likelihood of getting a callback. He's no fool.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 07:47:57 am

Thanks for the article,Richard.

It opens my eyes to more possibilities,regarding ''Zodiac's'' phone antics,and the motive behind those antics.

Had this behaviour been,to extent,planned in advance [?].

Having just,as he believed,killed two further young people,after LHR,6 months prior,he seems to take apparently unnecessary further risks of being caught.

For what reason ? Just the thrill ?

And,where did he get the energy,after the actual slaying ?

It certainly is a mystery,and worth contemplating,more.

Another mystery,that will go down in the case,alongside such ''gems'',as ''Tom and Terry,and the single pair of rubber gloves.''.

One really couldn't write this stuff as a believable work of fiction [?].

Nobody

10/20/2018 04:01:07 pm

Yes Rubislaw. I have begun to sympathize with those people who have proclaimed this whole bizarre case an elaborate hoax. On so many levels and on so many occasions the thing made no sense and on occasions appeared to fly off into the realms of fiction.

Clearly we are not in possession of all the correct facts and for some reason LE do not want us to know (?). Or are they just as perplexed as the rest of us. I understand that the taking of certain drugs like LSD, amphetamines, and marijuana was all too common in those days and in that part of the world in particular. Perhaps this goes some way to explaining the "mind-bending trip" which became the Zodiac case?

One wonders, did anyone involved in any way with the case, be it the culprit, the victims, the cops, the operators, really have full control of their faculties? Were any of them fully in control and aware of what they were doing and why? It often seems like the answer is a definitive "No!"

Carl Krash link

10/20/2018 09:39:12 am

Agree to some degree with ‘Nobody’ here. Living 20 years in NY City I frequently used pay phones. Sometimes for critical life changing calls. Job interviews, emergency rooms. Sometimes there were lines at the booth and it could get pretty intense. There were cases of people being shot and killed for staying on the line too long. Or cutting line. I digress, anyway I believe what Zodiac is describing is this: sometimes when one hung up, immediately there’d be a ring. Always freaked the heck out of me, because it made no sense. Yes it would get the attention of a passerby. It might have even startled Z to the point where he’d leave the phone hanging, walking away post haste. I’m not aware police would actually need to do a call back to get a trace but I’m not knowledgeable enough to know the precise mechanics. But yes the whole deal, negro witness etc, sounds like a red herring to me as well Richard. Still I can imagine Zodiac just driving around in traffic somewhere thinking, milling it over. Sometimes I feel you don’t understand how much we Americans love to drive, and much longer distances than in EU. And California has been the center of car culture on planet Earth for awhile now, outside of Detroit back then perhaps. I stand by my suspect from just across the bridge in Martinez, Pitsburg or Antioch, still quite familiar with the whole of the Bay Area.

Nobody

10/20/2018 04:19:14 pm

Excellent! Great to hear that you experienced that anomalous ring too Carl! I am sure it happened often enough that it confused and startled quite a few people.

Hoaxers also loved to frighten and confuse people. I knew of some mischievous kids who lived across the road from a phone box. They would wait for someone to hang up from their call and dial the number. The phone would ring, causing people to almost fall over backwards. Some would stumble away, looking back over their shoulder at the ringing phone. Others would answer with some uncertainty and be perplexed if there was silence or the hoaxer hung up. I'm not saying this happened to the Zodiac, but I guess anything is possible? Even the Zodiac could have fallen victim to a glitch in technology or a prankster. Who would know for sure?

Tom1

10/21/2018 07:54:58 am

Back in the day there was a ring back feature that didn't require a trace. I am not sure of the mechanics of it, but it did exist. As another bit of trivia one of my cousins took part in a scam whereby his long distance calls were not billed to him because they were routed through another device. He had an accomplice in this activity that worked for the phone company.

Monarch link

10/20/2018 11:07:14 am

Hi Richard,
Could you elaborate on the term "ring-back", It seems impossible that Nancy Slover could have contacted PT&T and explained the situation and have the operator trace the call back fast enough to ring back the phone while Zodiac was still in the phone booth or close enough to it to hear it given the technology of the era.

I have a faint memory as a small child of my Grandmother showing me a "code" to dial that would call back the previous caller, does this sound familiar to anyone ? maybe this is what Nancy Slover did to ring back Zodiac so fast ?

Richard

10/20/2018 03:05:17 pm

Here is what Michael Cole of Zodiac Revisited told me Monarch:

"Hey Richard,

It's been a while since I've looked at the thread you're referencing :)

The year after that post, I was able to talk to Nancy Slover and ask her about the ringback scenario. I included a short paragraph about it in the post I wrote when she passed away. That post is here:

http://zodiacrevisited.com/nancy-slover-passes-away/

For ease of reference, let me simply copy it here:

I had the privilege of hearing Nancy speak in 2007 at one of the get-togethers arranged by Tom. She was also kind enough to answer a question I had - I wondered if she could shed some light on the "ringback" scenario described in the killer's letter of August 4, 1969. She explained that, because of the specifics of how calls were routed, it was possible that the ringback happened after her involvement with the call, so she couldn't say for certain one way or the other.

As you can see, the conversation didn't really help in terms of getting to the bottom of what happened. Nonetheless, it was nice to get her input.

monarch link

10/20/2018 04:37:08 pm

Thanks for the reply Richard,

So it sounds like Nancy Slover took no immediate action to ring back the phone booth, so the "ring-back" must have been an anomalous glitch in the analog phone systems of the day.

Drew

10/20/2018 04:58:03 pm

So you think the ring back could have happened automatically and immediately? I guess Zodiac implied that it did. I wonder if there is any way we could know for sure.

Monarch link

10/20/2018 05:22:07 pm

Yes, it sounds like some sort of anomalous stray electrical current that energized the ringer bells, one of the other posters said this sort of thing would happen occasionally back in the day.

Drew

10/20/2018 05:35:23 pm

Thanks Monarch

Richard

10/20/2018 03:12:41 pm

The basis for the article, is that if Zodiac was in a vehicle parked next to the payphone, unless the ringback occurred in approximately 10 seconds, Zodiac would be in his car and long gone. If the ringback occurred after several minutes, or even 30 seconds, why could he still hear the phone. Possibly if he was walking away or lived nearby.

RTF

10/20/2018 01:06:02 pm

Oh, and (unoriginal as i am) I found this - re. what I was saying earlier about the operator having to ASK for the number, and her ability to listen in ...

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/welsh-chappie---zodiac-news/the-operator-who-illagally-listened-in-to-zodiac-and-slovers-conversation

This can work both for my scenario where Z can give the false payphone number (giving the cops a "fake clew" and "bussy work" rushing to the wrong scene and finger-printing the wrong phone), AND for Richard's idea of a fast notification and - if Z has given the correct number - a callback which he hears as he is walking away, within minutes.

Richard

10/20/2018 03:03:34 pm

That was written by Alex Lewis aka Welsh Chappie.

Nobody

10/20/2018 04:23:43 pm

I am not sure how the cops would have trusted the word of the caller enough to feel certain they had found the right pay phone.

None of that scenario makes any sense to me. :/

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 03:16:29 pm

Have I got this right,that we are assuming the premise that Zodiac had disposed of his car,and was now on foot [?].....regardless of any telephone anomalies.

That angle does not seem to be adding up.Zodiac was doing his ''b*gg*ring about'' at a telephone kiosk,just three quarters of an hour,after murdering Darlene.

It does seem that Zodiac never went home [?].I have always presumed that Zodiac kept his ''death machine'' in his garage,for ''special purposes'',and resided in a conventional housing area,with his day-to-day car parked out front.

I just think that Zodiac had concluded that it would not be prudent,to return his ''special car'' back in his garage,so soon after the attack....for fear that a neighbour would take note,and ''clock him'',if the cops came round,asking questions,in the days following.

Drew

10/20/2018 04:01:12 pm

I think the Zodiac's story about the witness at the payphone is bogus (if only because it makes little sense for Zodiac to relay this information), but I assume that the ring-back itself actually occurred because it is a strange thing to make up. I think rather that the ring-back inspired the story itself.

Do we know what situation(s) would prompt these ring-backs though? If it happened automatically and immediately I don't know whether we can learn anything from the incident, but if we knew for sure that it occurred because they were trying to run a trace, and that it did not happen as soon as he hung up, then the premise of a Zodiac on foot has to be true. The analysis in this article is bang on if a person was responsible for the ring-back because in that case there would surely be a significant delay after Zodiac hangs up, but is there a way we can first rule out automation to be certain of this? I believe that is the only possible cog in the wheel of this theory. Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 04:21:40 pm

Yes Drew,all the inputs in this section have been all very worthy.

And,the aspects to the case,with the most unanswered question,are always worth airing,time and again.

But,what are we really looking for,here [?].

I would suggest,that it is to come closer to an understanding,of where Zodiac resided.

I am confident that he was a resident of Vallejo,at that time.

But,I just don't think that we are any closer,to weighing probabilities,as to which actual part of Vallejo.

Nobody

10/20/2018 04:37:32 pm

Agreed Rubislaw. I only differ in that I think he lived in an area removed from his "killing grounds" and it was largely for this reason that he failed to get caught. I personally wonder if he came from the Mt Tamalpais or Santa Cruz neck of the woods, the latter being a notorious "hotspot" for serial killers. At least 5 known serial killers came from the Santa Cruz region: Terry Childs, Edmund Kemper, Herbert Mullin, John Linley Frazier, and David Carpenter. And these freaks did not seem to account for all of the murders, Trailside and otherwise in that area, so perhaps there were others who were never caught. And then we had the hapless Mark McDermand, Tam Valley resident and formative one-time member of The Sons of Champlin, who after killing his mother and brother, who he referred to as "the thing who liked to hurt people", fled to Vallejo. There he finally gave himself up to the cops after 11 days on the lam. He wrote numerous letters to the police and the newspapers during that time. In his own words if he had not given himself they would have never caught him, because he was adaptable. He blended in with the local slack jaw rednecks and cow pokes about town.

Drew

10/20/2018 04:50:22 pm

The best suspect in the case (which isn’t saying much in my opinion) resided in San Francisco (69) and then Santa Cruz (70) in a commune. I shouldn’t say his name because he is alive and not at all pleased about being discussed on Zodiac sites, but I think those areas are definitely possibilities. That said if that ring-back happened more than 30 seconds after Zodiac disconnected the call I think Richard is right that he resided within 5 minutes of that Vallejo payphone and almost surely worked in San Francisco.

Nobody

10/20/2018 06:00:23 pm

Yes Drew, his sloppy dress of old pleated pants described by witnesses is always a sticking point with me. Hartnell also called him "very low class" in speech and dress and he described him as being of average intelligence: not highly intelligent by any means, nor a complete fool. Seems to me the Zodiac could have been a bit of a street bum. Or someone a bit like Mark McDermand who occupied a smelly home-made basement in his mother's yard. He was perhaps a very adaptable person who could blend in with any crowd on the street. There was a certain millionaire of the time who also had a habit of "going native" from time to time.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/20/2018 05:18:43 pm

When one is presented with an incident,such as the kiosk incident,with so many conflicting little details.....it can be difficult to surmise anything,conclusively.

I have to admit that I still side with Richard on the 5 minutes,from the residency,scenario.

But,I still think that Zodiac was still ''loitering'' with his car,at that time,and playing with time,so to speak.

The decision to use the kiosk,seems to have amounted to an ''aberration in responsible thinking'' for Zodiac.

Who knows ? A longing to be recognised,for what he had just perpetrated,perhaps.

I had previously been thinking that one of Zodiac's considerations,after the attack....would be to mingle in,with party revellers,as soon as possible,as a means of alibi.

But I think,if something that the kiosk incident might tell us is,that Zodiac was indeed,that social outsider,that we have tended to suspect.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/26/2018 07:04:36 am

Hi Richard.

In giving your topic more thought,and taking into account that documented accounts allow us little to be ''insistent'' about :

A scenario might exist,where Zodiac,following the attack at BRS,just wants to get ''the hell out of there''.

So,he drives away from the scene,with a view to taking an extended drive.Perhaps,even,to stop somewhere remote,for a cigarette,and a long distance ''gander'' at emergency services arriving.

Zodiac slowly makes his way back to the vicinity of his residency,and wonders when he should actually return his ''special car'',to his house garage,without neighbours noticing unduly.

That's when Zodiac hits on the idea,of this phone booth ''stunt''.He perceives that the cops will come racing to the phone booth....giving Zodiac confidence to return to his house,having created a diversionary tactic,of a sort.

So,I am inclined to agree with you,that the phone booth was ''quite close'' to his specific residency.

Last week,I sent the FBI's crypto unit,the solutions to Scorpion's S1 and S5.

Some interesting ''running text'',as part of the solutions.

The final ''composition'' line of ''S5'',I have concluded,is :

'' ESPRESSO NYP COFEE FORCES A COLD ENEMA REVIEW ''

''Cofee'' is a consistant misspelling of Coffee,in the cipher solutions.

Perhaps,a bit of a joke going on,in reference to the eccentric Dr.Kellog,and his pioneering physiological ''therapy'' [?].

But ''the point'',with regard to this topic :

''....eneMARE VIEW.''

One does wonder,where you might have to be residing,in Vallejo,to have a largely unbroken view of Mare Island.And,whether,this might give any clues,as to which part of Vallejo,that Zodiac lived [?].

Worth considering.

Richard

10/26/2018 08:53:10 am

If we trust the account of Nancy Slover, who stated "'At 12.10 am, the first call I received, was from a young white woman in her late teens, and she was really agitated, excited or whatever. She reported that there were kids being shot at at Blue Rock Springs. So, I took the call and I gave it to the dispatcher, and I remember her saying "I don't know who I'm gonna send, because I don't have anybody free."', it appears there wasn't a massive police response near to the payphone. Richard Hoffman was fairly close to the crime scene and Ed Rust responded from downtown Vallejo. Hardly an overwhelming response from two different locations in unmarked police vehicles that would have attracted any attention to his residence, if near the payphone. There was seemingly no response from Vallejo PD with respect to vehicles leaving the police station. It was an extremely busy night with regards to the July 4th celebrations, and consequently all police were out responding to other calls.At about 12:10 -12:15 am, the time when Zodiac would have been returning to a residence by the payphone, Ed Rust would still been in downtown Vallejo or beginning his journey, arriving at the scene around 12:30 am. Hoffman inside the radius of Zodiac's address. Theodore neighbours of Zodiac wouldn't have been aware of anything. This is going by the statement of Nancy Slover, which is pertinent to the police reaction that night.

Nobody (does it better!)

10/26/2018 04:34:12 pm

I believe Carly Simon once wrote a song in 1971 that became a huge hit for her the following year. Clearly it had enormous relevance.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/26/2018 09:07:44 am

Just to be clear,Richard,what is this '' 12.47 am '' confirmation,actually representative of ?

Richard

10/26/2018 10:15:47 am

It is the time that Mrs Johnson rang the police, informing them they had traced the call. Assuming they would have done this the moment they knew the location of the payphone, I would argue strongly that the payphone was identified just before 12:47 am. This negates the concept of the phone being called back/traced almost immediately. Zodiac would have hung up the phone at 12:40.30 or 12:41 am. If Betty Main had rung back/traced the payphone used, almost immediately, why would there be a 6 minute delay in informing police. This was, according to Zodiac, a double homicide - therefore, why would would the operator sit on this information for approximately 6 minutes. This is the crux of my argument. If the PT&T staff called back the payphone just before they informed police, how could Zodiac still be at the payphone for 6 minutes after he hung up. Payphone's can make unusual noises on their own accord, but we have to take into account how often this occurs, and the odds of it just happening on this occasion, and the fact Zodiac said "the damn thing began to ring". Beginning to ring suggests it continued to ring, not just made errant tings or noise. I am trying to analyze the phone call incident over a 6-7 minute period, which is pertinent to the Debut letter.

Drew

10/26/2018 12:54:24 pm

"Zodiac said "the damn thing began to ring". Beginning to ring suggests it continued to ring, not just made errant tings or noise."

Good job Richard! This sounds solid to me. All we have are Zodiac's words and although he does make it sound like it rang right away, his language also implies that it continued to ring. As far as I can tell from other commenters here this not the experience others had 'back in the day'. "Nobody" remembers an automatic ting and occasionally a ting-a-ling but not that it would keep ringing as Zodiac's 'begins to ring' remark implies. Such a small thing but it may be the best evidence unearthed that this bag of scum lived near the payphone after all. Way to dig in there man!

Richard

10/26/2018 03:13:01 pm

Here is an interesting science Drew, regarding DNA and saliva.

"There is high demand for forensic age prediction in actual crime investigations. In this study, a novel age prediction model for saliva samples using methylation-sensitive high resolution melting (MS-HRM) was developed. The methylation profiles of ELOVL2 and EDARADD showed high correlations with age and were used to predict age with support vector regression. ELOVL2 was first reported as an age predictive marker for saliva samples. The prediction model showed high accuracy with a mean absolute deviation (MAD) from chronological age of 5.96 years among 197 training samples. The model was further validated with an additional 50 test samples (MAD = 6.25). In addition, the age prediction model was applied to saliva extracted from seven cigarette butts, as in an actual crime scene. The MAD (7.65 years) for these samples was slightly higher than that of intact saliva samples. A smoking habit or the ingredients of cigarettes themselves did not significantly affect the prediction model and could be ignored. MS-HRM provides a quick (2 hours) and cost-effective (95% decreased compared to that of DNA chips) method of analysis. Thus, this study may provide a novel strategy for predicting the age of a person of interest in actual crime scene investigations." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5585169/

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=saliva+age+forensics&rlz=1C1CHFX_enGB550GB550&oq=saliva+age+forensics+&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.27950j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This technique could eventually unearth the age of the donor of the Bates letters and the saliva on the cigarette butt found in the alleyway. The two may one day be compared for correlation to determine if one individual could have secreted both. They could determine the approximate age to within 5-6 years of the sender of the Exorcist and 1978 letter, where supposedly salivary amylase has been discovered. This could hopefully be used on any letter containing spit. If the saliva can determine somebodies age to within a narrow band of 5 years, it could certainly rule out certain suspects, as well as determining if a link between Riverside and the Bay Area is a possibility.

Richard

10/26/2018 03:18:31 pm

"Our approach supplies one answer to the enduring quest for reliable markers of aging," said principal investigator Dr. Eric Vilain, a professor of human genetics, pediatrics and urology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. "With just a saliva sample, we can accurately predict a person's age without knowing anything else about them."

Vilain and his colleagues looked at a process called methylation -- a chemical modification of one of the four building blocks that make up our DNA.

"While genes partly shape how our body ages, environmental influences also can change our DNA as we age," explained Vilain. "Methylation patterns shift as we grow older and contribute to aging-related disease."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110622224459.htm

Drew

10/26/2018 03:28:10 pm

That would certainly be monumentally helpful in this case! Almost as much as finding out who the Zodiac is/was learning more definitively what his age range was and whether he had anything to do with the Riverside murder would be fantastic. A lot of things would either fit or fall apart if we could determine his age and whether he lied about his Riverside activities.

Nobody

10/26/2018 04:39:25 pm

Age would indeed help to "narrow it down".

By the way, I like that professor's name, Dr. Eric Vilain... AND to think, he works in Genetics. :-O

Nobody

10/26/2018 04:48:37 pm

Things can become a game of semantics based on information presented to us by a serial killer who may have been completely deceitful in his motives.

Began to ring could mean just that. It "began to ring", hence just a ting or two.

I do not think we will ever know for sure what happened that night. To say anything more would be to make stuff up to suit our own particular scenarios.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/26/2018 10:35:40 am

Thanks for that,Richard.

I just struggle getting too keyed into the electronic/radio side of matters.

But I understand your enigmatic concerns.

So,we sill could be looking at Zodiac,pulling this ''strange stunt'',about three quarters of an hour,after the BRS attack [?].

''At a stretch'',I was starting to think about the land elevation of Vallejo,compared to Mare Island.Whether,perhaps,all residents of Vallejo,can see Mare Island,before them.

Possibly not relevant.But if any Vallejo residents reading,care to chip in,that would be great.

Thanks again.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/26/2018 01:32:17 pm

Hey Drew....its good to hear that you are in,on the Vallejo residency.

I look at Zodiac working in Benicia.

Do you still hold,with Zodiac working San Francisco '69.and Santa Cruz '70 ?

Interesting.Are you able to give further reasons ?

I have Zodiac down as,being ''Oil Industry''.

Is it different,for your suspect....and if so,do you have specific reasons for him being a Vallejo resident ?

Drew

10/26/2018 03:17:37 pm

I believe our two best options are that A) Zodiac either lived in the Vallejo/Benicia area and worked in San Francisco or B) he lived in San Francisco and worked in Vallejo/Benicia. I used to like San Francisco as a residence because that is where the suspect I was looking at lived at the time and communicating with that community seemed to be Zodiac's endgame, but I have never felt strongly about that scenario, only that one of those scenarios was likely correct. I like the idea of geographically profiling but because Zodiac was such an odd duck in writing letters to the police that I am reluctant to apply it here. Clearly though Vallejo and San Francisco were both part of his everyday life. After being on the A or B fence for some time now, I think Richard's fine work here regarding the implications of Zodiac's proximity to the phone booth when the ring back occurs has tipped me over to his side of the argument. If Zodiac was on foot he was likely from the area. I also just have a lot of trust in Richard's thorough analysis of this residency issue. He is almost always in the frame of mind with these articles to present the facts and factors of these issues but he has been a proponent of a Vallejo residency for quite a stretch now, and his always tethered to firm logic opinions are usually worth a wager.

The biggest problem with the suspect I used to like is that his prints must have been tried against the partial from the cab and I am currently pretty darn convinced of the authenticity of that partial. Indeed I now believe that although the guy I have taken a long look at is the most reasonable suspect I know of that he like all the rest of those accused on Zodiac sites is likely innocent of these crimes.

Richard

10/26/2018 03:39:06 pm

Cheers Drew, I used to believe Benicia was his residency based on the Medeiros timeline, but that can now be disputed. Certainly Vallejo and San Francisco are most people's choice, as the polls indicate. For me, the biggest clue of Vallejo was his past and present tense use, when he composed the July 31st letters - something I have a hard time believing was deliberate ( along with the 4 stamps). But of course, it's only my opinion.
I also just can't get past the 40 minutes, knowing he leaned into the Ferrin vehicle and likely acquired blood transfer to his t-shirt.
Putting aside DNA, geographic profiling is an essential tool, despite the small sample size. But even killers follow patterns. Buffer zones and 'least effort principle' still have relevance to psychopaths, who for the most part want to evade capture.
Kim Rossmo "The San Francisco murder differs significantly from the Zodiac's other crimes. Up to this point he was hunting in locations that had a good probability of containing his desired victims. Target selection was a function of area, not of an individual. However, it is unlikely the Zodiac was successful in all his searches; serial killers typically engage in extensive hunting activities, and for every attack there are many unsuccessful search attempts. In San Francisco, however, the Zodiac controlled the situation through his selection of victim type. The need for such control could be indicative of the distance the Zodiac had to travel to the crime site. Criminals who travel longer distances to offend are less likely to use uncertain target selection techniques." Control your location and you control your escape route.

Drew

10/26/2018 04:02:37 pm

That phrasing in the July 31 letters seems telling indeed Richard. With almost everything we read in the Zodiac letters I see deliberate misdirection, but I think you got him on that one. As sly as I believe he was I don't think that part was intentionally leading, just a careless mistake. I also think your blood transfer from the Ferrin car is a brilliant deduction and I have certainly added it to my envisioned narrative of that night. Although I do have issues with Rossmo's viewing of Zodiac through the same lens as psycho killers who did not contact the police I do think that his 10 minute clip about the investigation is probably the most concise evaluation that the case has received. That dude is one smart mother trucker!

Nobody

10/26/2018 04:03:34 pm

For some reason I would not trust in my own hunch that he came from such an obvious area. :))

Drew

10/26/2018 04:40:10 pm

Trust is a strong word! Hopefully someday we will learn the truth, but until then I think we are all just out to hunch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLka7gxpivw

Rubislaw 32 link

10/26/2018 05:07:50 pm

Thanks for all of your opinions,on the Zodiac ''residency and work'' angles.

Like Richard,I started out Benicia for residency.But it is an old fortress,that fell on hard times....and then resurrected itself,with a major industrial site,60's into 70's.

Vallejo,on the other hand,was a ''proper town'' in the 60's,with ample residency,that could take in the temporary work forces,in Benicia and Mare Island,also.

Just as an extra opinion,I have never seen Zodiac as a ''military man''.I don't think he would have passed a medical,for eyesight and being pigeon toed [!].

Thanks for the opinions,as comparison.

Drew

10/26/2018 06:00:34 pm

The Zodiac residency is a great issue to ponder and I get a lot out of this theorizing. Mare Island is certainly a reasonable guess at an employment location. I don't strongly believe he worked in San Francisco so much as it seems to make the most sense that he drove a route through Vallejo over Golden Gate and into SF routinely. My starting point is that it seems like he was closely tied to San Francisco because of how quickly and often he shot off those letters, and closely tied to the Vallejo area because it was such an out of the way place to strike. We could also look at both locales as perfectly logical choices. Vallejo was an easy place to commit a crime and San Francisco made sense for obtaining a large audience. It really depends on the level of forethought we presume that the man invested in his project. If we think it was somehow personal and/or a thing of convenience and that he employed the least required effort to pull it off then we should look close to the first crime scenes.

For me his location has to be strongly related to an estimate of how planned out it all was. As Richard and Tom Voigt have expressed the campaign may not have been planned out at all. If we did assign Zodiac with a higher degree of purpose and organization we could well imagine a multitude of precautions and effort put forth on his behalf in order to affect a safe well-crafted deceit about his residency. A lot in letters suggest that he was trying to sway us. He could have been motivated to drive in from a safe distance to a strategically remote location to commit his North Bay crimes. I do think his first two attacks were done closely together to make the connection of the crimes apparent and he must have known that the assumption would be that he was from the area. He still knew that they would have nothing to go on. If we had discerned after 50 years some grand artistically designed tapestry of a crime spree involving satanism or astrology or something we believe he actually could have believed in I would be more inclined to consider that he was driving great distances. The omission of the word Benicia may be a clue but at the moment I am going to stick with a Vallejo sicko without a grand plan. If the police hadn't allowed the reporters to talk about how stumped they were in late June of 69 because he had seemingly attacked complete strangers I have my doubts that he would have even invented the Zodiac.

Drew

10/26/2018 06:05:09 pm

I may be wrong about the article being written in late June of 69, but it was a long time after Lake Herman road and it was the last article written about the 'killer with no motive' before the Blue Rock Springs attack in early July.

Drew

10/26/2018 06:31:25 pm

I can rant all day about how none of the witchy warlock stuff meant a thing to him and it shouldn't mean a thing to us and still find it hard not to look for clues that the name Zodiac meant something more than his favourite watch or car or small water craft.

Kim Rossmo: "Target selection was a function of area, not of an individual. However, it is unlikely the Zodiac was successful in all his searches; serial killers typically engage in extensive hunting activities, and for every attack there are many unsuccessful search attempts."

I can't help but slip down the rabbit hole time and time again. If after his first attack on the date of the Winter Solstice in 68 Zodiac knew what he would later call himself (because the astrological connection meant something to him and he chose it as part of a motif) I wonder if he planned his second shooting to take place on the Summer Solstice of 69 and people were still too afraid to frequent the parks at night. Perhaps June 22 69 was an unsuccessful night for the killer. If we knew that he had the connection to the killing on Devil's Night in 1966 and the grand astrological design theory would be back on the table. Alright, I'm done. I just had cast that one out.

Nobody

10/26/2018 07:00:39 pm

Funny thing Drew, I mentioned a lot of the well-reasoned possibilities for that Zodiac symbol on another thread elsewhere, but I forgot to include the obvious boat and watch theories. So thanks for reminding me. But really there must be dozens of possible influences assigned to most of those Zodiac symbols by now. It has become a case of believe what you want to believe, and of course many people are trying to fit theories relating to the symbols to their pet suspects.

I guess as Judith pointed out earlier, a gun sight is the most likely influence for the Zodiac motif. Afterall, why would he paint himself as a target?

Coincidence or design? This is always the question. As Richard will be able to confirm, I too went down the rabbit hole one time in order to find the great constellational/astrological connectivity to the Zodiac's criminal activities. Much to my surprise I found nothing conclusive.

I found no great "constellational" pattern or formulaic rationale for any of the Zodiac's activities, nor anything definitively astrological for that matter.

Nevertheless there are some interesting observations that can be made from the data.

The weighting of his "canonical" activity whether by accident or design was placed between the summer solstice and winter solstice (or between Litha and Yule). Zodiac's activity became more concentrated between these symbolic times of "Rebirth" and "Life". The activity peaks around the harvest period of Samhain (popularly known as Halloween).

Many people these days mistakenly consider Halloween as a time of death, and popular culture has turned it into a weird festival of ghosts and skeletons. In its traditional pagan sense it was actually a period celebrating the final harvest of the full bloom of life. The whole idea was that the life force ("harvest") could be coveted through the Winter (a period of fire, smoke, death, decay, loss etc.) in preparation for a rebirth in spring.

So there is a general suggestion of something "along those lines" in the Zodiac's activity - i.e. a "harvesting" of the life force for sake of coveting it (as "slaves") and celebrating it in terms of a future "rebirth" (in Paradise). But the calendar dates are never precise enough to provide evidence for a "definitive" motivational influence on his criminal activity. Also he just never killed enough people to make a clear enough pattern.

Perhaps it really did just "happen that way" and the Zodiac was all too keen to make it seem like he had planned it according to some kind of Zodiac wheel or constellation chart?

He killed twice in Libra, once in Capricorn and once in Cancer.

He wrote three letters in Libra, three in Scorpio, one in Capricorn, two in Taurus, one in Cancer, four in Leo.

Clearly if was aiming for a complete Zodiac chart of killings, he failed badly.

If we compare his radians in a circle idea with this astrological calendar wheel (or "celestial clock") we do seem to find these really strange but obscure matches between radians and the times when he killed. That is if we cross reference the two ideas of a constellation chart (wheel) with a compass face.

But that is about all anyone can really make of it. So accident or design or a bit of both? I guess we will never know for certain.

I did wonder in the past if the reason why the Stine murder seemed hastily committed to the point of seeming "botched" was because the Zodiac felt he was running late. The clock was ticking and he was "out of time" so felt he had to act at that exact moment or never. Others of course disagree and will claim his crimes were all meticulously planned or, they go to the other extreme and claim his crimes were all entirely random.

It is also worth pondering this in light of Zodiac copycat Heriberto Seda and the way he had authorities baffled as to how he knew the birthdates of his victims. His victim's deaths corresponded with their own astrology signs. It turns out that this happened by sheer luck. Seda had no prior knowledge of any of his victim's birth dates. It was all just a big coincidence. I doubt very much that Seda was like Berkowitz influenced by a demonic Labrador barking instructions to him, nor do I believe he was psychic. It just happened that way.

Drew

10/26/2018 07:19:59 pm

Interesting info there Nobody. I definitely agree with the gunsight idea more than the fancy explanations. The Seda case is indeed telling about how these coincidences can morph into fantastical ideas until we are confronted with the sad and not all that interesting truth.

Richard

10/26/2018 10:17:08 pm

I too think the gunsight is the most likely answer. His statements at the end of the 3 July letters, followed by the threatening gunsight seems his inevitable response to his his demands not being met "If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry. night. I will cruse around all weekend killing lone people in the night then move on to kill again, until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend." Crosshairs.

Richard

10/26/2018 10:24:46 pm

The consternation/astrology angle certainly cannot be dismissed, as the Zodiac is the essence of the 12 astrological arms of the horoscope, along his use of possible Taurus and Aries symbols. His choice of the pseudonym Zodiac, coupled with the crosshairs symbol leaves this a possibility, although I tend to go with the gunsight proposal as the most obvious because of its threatening tone.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 12:19:07 am

All fascinating observations and ''angles'' interpretation.

Drew's allusion to San Francisco,with its ''dominant'' relative population,representing Zodiac's perception of ''audience'',I believe to be a truism.

We can often do a lot of ''joining dots'',geographically,and sometimes with good reasons.But,I believe that the overwhelming reason for perceived facility of movement,from Zodiac is,his simple love affair with driving.It was his recreation,and means of relaxation,as much as anything else.

That....and libraries.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 12:52:41 am

By the way,Drew,''truism'' is meant as a compliment.

In logic,it is regarded as something noble.

We should never fear,stating the obvious,when trying to figure Zodiac out.We want ''extra'',but we need to keep reminding ourselves of what we have already established,in order to attempt an extra rung in our ladder of understanding.

In essence,that is the fundamentals of philosophy.

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 01:13:06 am

That's it Richard.....that's the key to what makes your site successful [!].

We crave ''extra'' on Zodiac.

Which reminds me....we have had nothing new on the Zodiac,since Spring 2015,and Mr.Morford's receipt of the 1988 New Canaan Letters.

I suspect this will remain,now,until Zodiac is apprehended.

Richard

10/27/2018 05:27:46 am

Because Morf is not convinced on the Canaan letters, I doubt he will pursue this line any further. We have to be wary with so many hoaxers out there which 'Zodiac letters' to trust. If the Exorcist letter, for example, was ever proven inauthentic, then we would have to reevaluate our understanding of what constitutes fake or real. The ciphers are a welcome distraction, that while interesting, will never solve the case. I enjoy the challenge of visiting them from time to time, but for me, the four canonical attacks are the bread and butter of the case. Unfortunately, these canonical receive limited attention compared to previous years because [1] They have been discussed to death, and [2] The search for Zodiac's DNA has somewhat taken centre stage.

Nobody

10/27/2018 06:05:19 pm

Richard, The New Canaan letters have that "too good to be true" look about them, do they not? The hallmarks of any con is that they always appear to be "too good to be true".

Why would the Zodiac, after so many years, simply rehash all the stuff from his old letters? Did he have nothing new to offer? Had he simply run out of ideas? Oh, but now after all these decades I will throw you a cipher which is easy to solve and it contains a name of a woman as a "clew".

It all seems really off to me.

The writing looks a bit like his, but basically, this has all the hallmarks of a hoaxer who knew he could emulate Z's writing style reasonably well, and has simply re-worked stuff from the old letters.

Even the way the old stuff has been presented seems far too playful and disingenuous in its intent to be the work of the real Zodiac. This is just somebody "mucking about" IMHO.

It will be the work of someone who is probably sitting back and laughing at all the people who have fallen for it.

Cryptogram

10/27/2018 11:33:14 pm

Yes easily solved. I just ran the largest one in AZDecrypt and you get enough of the solution to easily work the rest out. With such a low probability of success using manual trial and error it would appear the FBI cheated and just ran it through software. Then it is a simple matter of applying a small amount of thought into switching the remaining symbols to get the correct solution.

Task: substitution (using 2 CPU threads)
6-grams_english_jarlve_reddit.txt
--------------------------------------------------------
Score: 23095.44 Ioc: 0.05719
Ngrams: 104 PC-cycles: 1599

NHAUNAIFYOUWA
SHTOKNOWAYIDE
NTITYYOUWILLH
AVETOPUTSODEE
FFORTANTOITDO
NOTMIDDLEANDF
ARTAROUNDHERE
ISACLUEASKMAN
SUSTAYLORIFSH
EREMEMBERSWHO
DRAWNTHESYMBO
LTHENYOUWRALH
AVEMEGOODLUCK

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 06:24:23 am

Nicely put,Richard,and it is all credit to you,that some Zodiac enthusiasts are able to freely discuss this case.

Some ''hammer and tong'' comments,in this section....all underpinned by passion.

What could be better [?].

Rather than discuss the contents of those New Canaan letters,what I can add,is a ''claim'' of the knowledge of how those copied documents,''fell'' into Mr.Morford's lap.

AKWilk's gallant attempts to secure further ''unconformed's'' belies the reality that,in most cases,over the years,the authorities have actually ''fed'' them to us,when and if it suited their purposes.

Often,it seems,to gain a feedback from the enthusiast ''masses''.

In time,and more particularly,it will become apparent,what precisely,that they found of use.

Yes,in the scheme of things,the ciphers are relatively low,on the scale of importance.The ''third dimension'',after physical crimes and letter writing,if you will.....and,if indeed,there is extra information to be gleaned.

But,the murders will always remain top priority,for prosecution....and the ciphers,just an extension of Zodiac's extortion.....where ''threats by menacing means'',can cover most aspects,with regard to his compulsion to write.

I hate this ''waiting game''.But hopefully,the whole truth will emerge.

And,at least some compensation,for our efforts.....underpinned,often by frustration.

A message to LE : ''Just give us the rest,of what you've got - please.''.

Nobody

10/27/2018 04:37:49 pm

A message to LE : ''Just give us the rest,of what you've got - please.''.

Yes indeed Rubislaw. But I frequently wonder, do LE ever bother to read pages like these?... or is it more a case that they consider us the "Great Unwashed" peasantry and they are simply laughing at us? I would like to think they should not have the time for the latter, one would hope! But it does seem that the crumbs they throw us every so often are all too scanty and infrequent. Perhaps in truth they know as much about the case as we do and thus have nothing more to offer?

Rubislaw 32 link

10/27/2018 08:22:21 pm

Its certainly a good point,Nobody.

And,an equally good point that it is questionable whether they know as much about the case,as we do.

On the second point,I think that certain criminologists and public prosecutors,learn as much as they need,in order to put a prosecution case,together...provided they are able.

On the first point,i am aware that the man that is supposed to,at least attempt to bring this case,to a conclusion,has risen to my bait,on two occasions,in the past.

But.he is now happy,having secured relative anonymity,once again,and will only ''strike'',when he is good and ready.

''He'' was badly let down by senior policemen,four years ago,and he won't make the same mistake again.

In ''him'',we trust.

That is best,and most,that I am able to say.

Carl Krash link

10/27/2018 09:09:16 am

Interesting discussion re place of work place of residence. Just leaving this this little proposal here: George Achilles Karadanis, Anatolian Greek American, Kane’s employer, aka the Zodiac, killed Paul Stine on his way to his Anatolian Greek associate Xenophon Anthony’s residence, just a few blocks down Jackson. Karadanis normally traveling the area between Tahoe and SF. His parents still based in Pittsburg Ca.

The Zodiac Symbol: he used it in multiple ways: 4 seasons of the astrological zodiac, Greek Cross, target, North arrow, radian descriptor, perspective viewpoint on the ‘around in the snow’ card scorecard...and signature of course.

As for the Astrology...he had an interest, but used it as another blind alley reference. ‘Another clew for you all’...Sierra upside down is Arreis

Nobody

10/27/2018 04:28:23 pm

It is always noteworthy that the compass symbol on the maps and the radian symbol "fit" well with the gun sight symbol. We can overlay each concept to form a single basic "ideology". So what we have is a clock face, a compass face, and a gun sight in one. It shows NEWS and 0,3,6,9 positions. It is kind of a neat, all-encompassing little package that the Zodiac invented for himself. He was probably searching for some greater meaning from the otherwise random and chaotic universe to justify his own demented existence and need to kill. By noting these fundamental laws of the universe and encapsulating them as a single symbol, he was, in effect, providing a quasi-rationale for himself and his activities. I guess this is nothing new. Scouts are taught these kinds of basics all the time e.g. how to use a watch as a rudimentary compass, how to determine the time from a shadow by drawing a circle on the ground and poking a stick dead center, how to determine crude distances by using your compass and determining radians etc. The Zodiac simply welded all of these basic ideas into one. An astrology wheel can also be superimposed on that same model. You end up with a kind of universal, celestial, "compass". Read any book on Freemasonry and you will find a similar obsession to the details of time and space encapsulated in a single symbol. The different concepts "fit" together very well because of the simple laws of geometry and the way humans throughout history have tended to look for similar patterns in the universe. The symbolic representations are all based on the concept of the triangle and a circle with a single dot at its center. It goes without saying that for this reason the two "sacred" symbols of Freemasonry are the triangle and the circle. These two shapes form the basis for everything known in the world and universe and are the foundation of all its fundamental laws. I personally think that the Zodiac came to this realization and it was like an epiphany for him, because he believed that by mastering the fundamental laws of the universe and its creation he could be a virtual God. At least this may have been what was going on in his mind at the time. The only evidence for this is in the symbols he used. We can certainly see these ideas being toyed with on the map and when he illustrates radians. He has adapted the gun sight symbol to relate to a compass and to a clock. This much is at least reasonably plain for us to see.

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