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Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
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A MURDER OVER BY 3800 WASHINGTON STREET

8/4/2020

 
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There is an extremely credible argument that the murder of Paul Stine on October 11th 1969 in Presidio Heights took place at the intersection of Washington and Maple Streets, with the killer effectively driving the taxicab one block further west. The Zodiac Killer, with little doubt, planned the taxicab murder in advance with the express intention of removing a piece of Paul Stine's shirt and mailing it to the San Francisco Chronicle.

On October 12th 1969, the Chronicle ran an article clearly stating that the "three younsters saw a scuffle near the cab, which was stopped on Washington Street near Cherry Street, about 10 pm". Despite this statement, the author of the October 13th 1969 letter claimed "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt". The decision to contradict the newspaper and use the words "over by" could be argued as a correction by the Zodiac Killer, especially in light of the three teenagers testifying that they heard no gunshot that night. Had they been drawn to the window by the sound of a gunshot (that they possibly didn't recognize as one), a killer traveling in the back seat of the taxicab would have been visible in the rear of the taxicab when they arrived at the window. At best, the killer would have been exiting the rear of the taxicab and approaching the front passenger side door.

The Robbins children explicitly relayed the following information: "
The first kid at the window said the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he's stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place". This backs up their contention of not hearing a gunshot because the Zodiac Killer could not have achieved this position on the front seat in the time between the fatal shot and the kids responding to it. The murderer was already in the front seat with the victim's head lying across his lap (their interpretation). Their claim of a seeing the "glint of a knife" would be bolstered by the arrival of the removed piece of shirt just two days later. Many claim that the shirt was torn but a Zodiac Killer who had planned this murder in advance surely would have used a knife to facilitate the speedy removal of a section of Paul Stine's shirt. The "glint of a knife" seemingly corroborates this assertion.             

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Is it possible the three teenagers heard no gunshot because the killer used a suppressor? The claim by the Zodiac Killer to have murdered Paul Stine "over by Washington St + Maple St" would obviously have been an explanation for no gunshot being heard at Washington and Cherry, but was the author of the October 13th 1969 letter telling the truth? I believe he was.

The author of the October 13th 1969 letter would reference Washington and Maple Streets despite the fact that nobody but the police knew the taxicab trip sheet contained the destination of Washington and Maple, other than the killer. The killer chose the Washington & Maple intersection as his destination (logged in the trip sheet by Paul Stine), and mentioned it in the October 13th 1969 letter because this was the designated location to murder Paul Stine. This clearly shows that the author of the Chronicle letter not only inserted the shirt piece as proof he was the murderer of Paul Stine, but knew the contents of the trip sheet and its destination. There was nothing to gain from the killer's perspective by claiming the murder at a different location to the one reported in the newspapers. In fact, a murder at Washington and Maple ticks so many boxes from the perspective of a killer who meticulously planned this murder and was intent on securing a shirt piece from the victim to prove his involvement in this crime. Especially because this crime would never have been believed to be the work of Zodiac without such proof. The Washington and Maple mention on October 13th 1969 just another layer of proof in view of the taxicab trip sheet.    

It is believed that the killer parked his vehicle somewhere close to Presidio Park to facilitate his escape. The first thing the killer has to do then, is select a location for the murder in close proximity, but not too close. If you look at the previous four intersections east of Washington and Cherry, it becomes apparent that Washington and Maple is the ideal location in a built-up city. As with Washington & Cherry, the residences at Washington & Spruce, Washington & Locust and Washington & Walnut are in extremely close proximity to the street - and obviously pose great danger if you are firing an unsuppressed 9mm weapon in any of those locations. In a population dense section of the city it becomes apparent that a murder at Washington & Maple is the ideal location. Or to be more exact, the location at, or slightly west of the Le Petit Trianon (a historical landmark in San Francisco at 3800 Washington Street, based upon the Chateau at the Versailles Palace in France). A gunshot within a taxicab located here isn't impervious to detection, but it is much less likely to draw unwanted ears and eyes when you compare it to the corner of Washington & Cherry. A killer committing a murder at the location where the taxicab was found would be doing so just 20 feet from the front door of 3898 Washington Street with numerous other residences in close proximity. Now compare that intersection with Washington & Maple. Where would you commit the murder?              

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Washington & Maple intersection. Click image to enter Google maps.
By committing a murder here the Zodiac Killer can afford himself two layers of protection. He knows he needs time to wipe down the taxicab and secure a piece of Paul Stine's shirt, so is firing a weapon just 20 feet from the front door of 3898 Washington Street, or 50 feet from the house occupied by the three teenagers the ideal choice, when you are going to spend one to two minutes inside a taxicab removing a piece of the victim's shirt and wiping away incriminating evidence? The more sensible option would be to commit the murder at Washington & Maple in a much more secure location, then as an insurance policy (just in case somebody overheard a shot), relocate one block further west where no shot would have been heard. Then you would feel much more comfortable just pulling up to the sidewalk in the taxicab and claiming the shirt piece without fear the gunshot has drawn unwanted attention. The only action the killer had to perform was to shoot Paul Stine at Washington & Maple before he switched off the meter, push Paul Stine to the right, then access the pedals of the taxicab and leave. If somebody had heard what they believed to be a shot near the intersection of Washington & Maple, within a matter of seconds the killer would have been gone.  

I see no tangible benefit of a killer offering up a second location to police and therby provide the opportunity for police to investigate the possibility of a second set of eyewitnesses at Washington & Maple. I have little doubt that the police would have searched for eyewitnesses at this second location offered by the killer, but it appears that they found none. Testimony that the Zodiac Killer's choice of committing the murder at Washington & Maple was the correct one. Unfortunately, he hadn't banked on the three curious and lively teenagers at Washington & Cherry who just so happened to look out of the window at an inopportune moment with respect to the Zodiac's activities. Despite this, the delay of responding officers to the crime scene gave him just enough time to escape capture. 
Carl Karas link
8/4/2020 12:01:59 pm

Nice one. Came to the same conclusions myself. You're in depth study makes it clearer. It was planned by some very intelligent perpetrators. And at least one had to know these intersections quite well. I've been making videos on YouTube. Just posted my 2nd. It relates generally to the Stine murder in analyzing the Z340. Thought y'all might be interested https://zodiackmak.com/2020/08/03/a-2nd-340-vid-so-perfect-no-one-bothers-to-even-look/

Richard
8/4/2020 12:58:06 pm

Cheers Carl. Even though I don't believe the perpetrator lived in San Francisco, I am confident he worked there, or visited recreationally. Knowing that area was crucial in deciding to kill there. The risk was greater, so the preparation had to be more stringent. I know you like San Francisco for the home location, as do many others. This analysis certainly doesn't harm that cause. I'll link your channel on Youtube as well
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx1SQfUtK0kSiy4z-9L394Q

Glenn
8/4/2020 06:31:52 pm

"It is believed that the killer parked his vehicle somewhere close to Presidio Park to facilitate his escape."

What's the source for this? Thx. Another well researched article.

Richard
8/5/2020 12:28:01 am

It will likely never be known where Zodiac parked his vehicle that night Glenn, or even if he required one, but my experience of the Zodiac community suggests this is a widely held view. It is actually immaterial to whether Zodiac shot Stine at Washington & Maple or Washington & Cherry, when we actually don't know for certain his home location. But if Zodiac familiarized or planned this murder, then a choice of killing Stine at Washington & Cherry when a better option existed just one block east, appears counter intuitive. The Zodiac Killer stated the murder was Washington & Maple, and it does seem the better choice. Of course, if your suspect was somebody like Qvale, then the vehicle option is an irrelevance.

Mo
8/5/2020 07:27:52 am

But, why would Zodiac choose this particular location for his crime?

There are many many areas in San Francisco that provide better access to either the Golden Gate or Bay Bridges and thus a quicker way to exit the City (not to mention more secluded). Why Washington and Maple? Should we believe that Zodiac randomly drove through most neighborhoods in San Francisco in preparation for this crime?

This location probably had some sort of significance for Zodiac. He must have had a certain familiarity and comfort level with the area. Maybe he knew someone who lived there or did some work in the area. This argument may further be supported by the fact that most of his letters were postmarked from San Francisco, including nearby areas in the Richmond and Sunset districts.

There are some claims that known serial killer Edward Wayne Edwards had a cousin who worked at a restaurant about 1-block away from where Stine is believed to have picked up Zodiac. That same cousin lived a few blocks away from where Stine was shot.

Richard
8/5/2020 08:58:56 am

Exactly right Mo, of all the places he could choose in San Francisco, why this one. There are much more secluded areas he could have murdered a taxicab driver. This may have been the area he knew best, but equally he could have cruised around San Francisco for a few hours to find a better spot. Was it a combination of him knowing the area, with a fairly speedy exit route over the Golden Gate Bridge, in combination with the shock factor of leaving a murder victim in a wealthy district of San Francisco for all to see. We may never know his true motivations and decision making, but having chosen and planned this murder (assuming he had), why would you select the less safe intersection to commit the crime. You are absolutely correct, there are certainly more covert locations, so the area of Presidio Heights was chosen for purpose. Did he want to stick it to police by choosing such an affluent area. A way of saying nobody is safe. The shirt piece and possibly knife doesn't smack of spur of the moment, but couldn't be ruled out entirely. But if he had chosen the area beforehand, Washington & Maple was a safer option. The killer stated Washington & Maple rather than Washington & Cherry, when it actually would have served his purpose to have just agreed with the Washington & Cherry murder site, because a murder at this intersection was far more daring. So, possibly the declaration of Washington & Maple, in view of the trip sheet, was further proof of his involvement, despite the shirt piece seemingly being enough. He was correct 51 years ago, because despite the shirt piece, it still isn't enough for some people.

Richard
8/5/2020 09:05:36 am

Do you consider the possibility he lived in San Francisco and actually committed his last canonical attack closest to his residence?

Shawn
8/5/2020 09:14:59 am

"Testimony that the Zodiac Killer's choice of committing the murder at Washington & Maple was the correct one."

I believe Stine was shot at Washington and Maple. I do not know if Zodiac meant for the car to end up at Washington and Cherry. Lots of speculation. Holes and Butterfield suggest after he was shot Stine the car rolled down the incline of the road that exists from Maple to Cherry. Maybe a controlled roll?

"It is believed that the killer parked his vehicle somewhere close to Presidio Park to facilitate his escape."

I think Zodiac might have lived in S.F. and he did not need a car because he could walk through the southeast corner of the Presidio (2 minutes) to Broadway. If he wanted to leave a clue he could have walked one block north and be on Vallejo street to escape. A connection to his other murders in the "North Bay Area".

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Presidio+Wall+Playground,+Pacific+Ave+%26,+Spruce+St,+San+Francisco,+CA+94118/37.7928906,-122.4467894/@37.7920953,-122.4524032,16z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x8085872e407395fb:0x23200c1ec057eb72!2m2!1d-122.4543213!2d37.7911316!1m0!3e0

Shawn
8/5/2020 09:20:27 am

BTW.....Julius Kahn Park name only exisis in history now. Now called Presidio Wall Park on google maps.

A San Francisco parks commission committee Thursday recommended a new name for Julius Kahn Playground, park department officials said. The Recreation and Park Commission's operations committee recommended Presidio Wall Playground as the new name.Sep 6, 2019

Richard
8/5/2020 10:35:15 am

Before I knew that the teenagers described trying to haul Stine upright behind the steering wheel, the only other option I could think of previously for the print on the right side of the cab, was the blooded right hand of a killer who entered the driver side door at Washington & Maple to drive one block further. Thereby touching the dividing panel as he entered. Also, as described by the teenagers, why would the killer have been perceived to be wiping down the dashboard by the driver. Was he wiping down the steering wheel and controls rather than the dashboard? Had the killer used the ignition keys at some juncture and hence why he pocketed them?

Richard
8/5/2020 10:39:14 am

"BTW.....Julius Kahn Park name only exisis in history now. Now called Presidio Wall Park". More airbrushing of history due to racism is what I heard. The choice of Presidio Wall Park rather an uninspiring choice.

Mo
8/5/2020 11:00:16 am

Yes, the shooting almost certainly occurred closer to Washington and Maple, which is consistent with both Zodiac’s letter as well as Stine’s trip sheet.

However, it appears that the cab kept rolling down the block, which suggests that something prompted Zodiac to prematurely fire on Stine. Normally, you would think the cab would make a full stop near the sidewalk curb to collect the fare and let the passenger out. However, if the cab kept rolling down towards Washington and Cherry, then Zodiac likely shot Stine while he was still driving. Maybe Stine saw the gun or Zodiac said something that made him reluctant to stop?

As with most metro areas in the U.S., people tend to live in the suburbs and commute to work. Therefore, I think Zodiac almost certainly lived closer to Vallejo and commuted to San Francisco, where he mailed the letters from. There are instances where professionals (single ones especially), move away from the suburbs to live and work in the big city, but would continue to visit family and friends back home. So, that’s a possibility too.

One thing that I question is why Zodiac didn’t wear gloves? Why would a calculating killer engage in the sloppy task of wiping his fingerprints off of the cab, when he could have simply wore gloves?

Maybe this was not as well-planned as we think. Or, maybe Zodiac’s claim that he put some type of cement on his hands to conceal fingerprints was true and he was just wiping the cab out of an abundance of caution. Maybe that’s why the fingerprints were never matched to anyone.

Lastly, SFPD does not seem to be very transparent about this incident. There are claims that someone was detained that night. Also, several names have popped up over the years in association with this crime, including Xenophon Anthony, Robert Hale West and Aubrey Dwight Bailey, among others. However, we don’t fully understand how those names became part of the investigation. We also don’t know if Stine’s glasses were stolen and what happened to the trip book.

Richard
8/5/2020 11:25:46 am

It's possible he coated his fingerprints, but it may have cracked off and therefore only left partials in blood. Not so crackproof after all.

In terms of the glasses. If SFPD had the glasses in their possession, why didn't they run Deborah Perez straight out of town when she claimed she had Stine's glasses (taken from the crime scene by her father). Instead they investigated her claims. Why would they do this? This is a statement from them.

"San Francisco police said Thursday that they were still waiting for Perez to produce a pair of glasses that she said her father took as a souvenir from a cab driver he killed. Police believe the Zodiac shot a San Francisco taxi driver named Paul Stine on Oct. 11, 1969. Reports of the crime say that Stine's glasses were missing. Once you make complaints to a police department, you are required by law to provide the evidence to a police agency, and there is no reason to believe she is not going to do that", said San Francisco Police Sgt. Lyn Tomioka. Asked whether police were taking her claims seriously, Tomioka said: "We take any new leads or any new information or evidence and look at it seriously, and then we follow up to see if there is any legitimacy to the statements".

Why would they be waiting for them to produce glasses, if they already had Stine's glasses since 1969.

Richard
8/5/2020 11:28:08 am

Correction: Why would they be waiting for Perez to produce glasses, if they already had Stine's glasses since 1969?

Rubislaw 32 link
8/5/2020 11:12:15 am

With location of Paul Stine's murder , easily being a topic for discussion , on its own , I do believe that '' wealthy neighbourhood '' and access to the Golden Gate bridge , were major factors in the Zodiac's decision making .

One feels therefore , and as an implication , that this was an '' away day '' murder for the Zodiac . For everything to have gone right for him , involved some luck - but a fair amount of planning also - particularly that which we know least about - circumstances directly after the Zodiac leaving the crime scene .

I wonder if the Zodiac visited the neighbourhood on a number of occasions , in the lead up to the murder , and as a pedestrian , in particular .( ? ) . Although he might have had to minimise the pedestrian visits , for fear of standing out in a most often quiet part of town .

Certainly interesting about the re-naming of Julius Kahn Park . I don't suppose that could have any bearing on a prospective resolution to the case ( ? ) .

Yes...the local authorities should have re-named it : '' Paul Stine Park '' (....half kidding , of course...) .

Richard
8/5/2020 11:50:25 am

The Presidio Park may have offered another layer of protection in the event things went wrong. They did with the teenagers, who Zodiac hadn't banked on. Also, a murder on the fringes (as Mo alluded) also provides quick egress from San Francisco. He almost certainly visited the neighbourhood previously. Remember the Rossmo video below. He mentioned an extremely similar scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FovL6-f2Tk&t=12s

Richard
8/5/2020 11:55:19 am

Remember Dennis Rader. Stalked the women and staked out the crime scenes beforehand. Did SFPD interview people on Washington and Jackson Streets for any suspicious individuals in the run-up to the murder. Viewing the area in daylight for your quickest and accessible escape routes.

Mo
8/5/2020 12:06:01 pm

From the SF Examiner re the park name change:

“Last year, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to change the name of the playground. Kahn is associated with extending the Chinese Exclusion Act, a racist law that became permanent in 1902 until Congress repealed it in 1943”.

Rubislaw 32 link
8/5/2020 12:58:56 pm

Most interesting Mo , and , as I have just touched on , the implications of erasing aspects to murders , to avoid '' pilgrimage '' mentality , in the future .

Although not meaning to move away from Presidio Heights , another potential example happened 18 months ago , in Glasgow , Scotland . Emma Caldwell , a prostitute who was murdered in April 2005 , touted her business , most days , on the corner of Cadogan Street and Blythswood Street , Glasgow .

In May 2015 , her murder was formally re-investigated , and remains ongoing , five years on .

18 months ago , Epic House , a medium size modern office building that stood on that Cadogan St . / Blythswood St. corner , was demolished .

Certainly food for thought .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/5/2020 01:22:38 pm

On the matter of Emma Caldwell , the assigned team of detectives formally submitted a report to the Crown Prosecution Service , just over two years ago . This report included a suspect whom they believe was responsible for Emma's murder .

Six months later - Epic House gone .

JD
8/5/2020 02:03:48 pm

We might also consider, when examining the Stine murder, that Zodiac had a bit of "daredevil syndrome." He shoots Stine, hangs around cutting off strips of shirt and wiping down the cab, "plants fingerprint(s), then walks away. The setup in this neighborhood may have been chosen to test himself, to push the envelope and add a "thrill" to his game with the police. And he may have been someone who really didn't care if he was caught in the end, but until that happened, would continue to play and reinvent the game. It was Son-of-Sam David Berkowitz, who, after being apprehended, asked the police, "What took you so long?"

Also, if Zodiac was fond of the theater and disguises, why don't we ever see a bald Zodiac? Bald, w/o glasses?

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=468

Richard
8/5/2020 03:27:57 pm

His latter two crimes were a considerable escalation in risk, particularly Presidio Heights. I always wonder JD, if Jack Stiltz hadn't asked Zodiac for more proof he was the killer, would the persona of Zodiac have ever existed. Did the press coverage embolden the killer and as such, part create the braggart he became. Was he buoyed by the newspaper coverage to create ever more daring "accomplisments". .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/5/2020 07:29:59 pm

Certainly believe that the Zodiac was buoyed on to more daring accomplishments , Richard .

But tragically , perhaps ( ? ) , part of the reason was the humiliation that I believe he felt , initially , when he saw the Harden's solution to his 408 cipher , with its '' all too plentiful '' spelling errors . These extra spelling errors took any '' sting '' out of the intended sinister tone , that he had hoped to convey - and made the solution message take on an infantile quality . ( Hahaha....)

But seriously , these small margins on events , can make a big difference . The Zodiac's first reaction to how he believed the press had responded , would undoubtedly have been :

'' They are all laughing at me .''

And , sadly , it seems as if the Zodiac then realised that he was going to have to '' Up the Ante '' , in order to be taken seriously .

With , of course , tragic consequences at Lake Berryessa and Presidio Heights .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/5/2020 03:37:29 pm

Very well surmised , JD , and the '' daredevil syndrome '' .
quote certainly strikes a chord of resonance .

More likely bolstered by his mind's disposition to real anger , as an underpin ( ? ) . I believe that it is becoming apparent that he even may have wanted his motorcar , at LHR , to be recognised .

It could depend on a viewpoint of '' catalyst '' , but I believe that BRS was where the Zodiac allowed his discipline to fall short , in murdering someone he knew ( Darlene ) .

So , becoming the Zodiac was actually '' Plan B '' for him .

Shortly after BRS I think that he may have realised that '' Darlene didn't necessarily have had to die '' . But , it did force him to re-think his strategy , on how he was going to express this '' anger '' , that he believed the whole world should know about .

So , new strategy - but same '' Daredevil '' .


Glenn
8/7/2020 09:30:20 am

Hi Richard (I'm leaving a comment to your reply here because, for some reason I can't see the bottom of the verification window when it comes up.)

I think it's important to point out widely held views in cold cases have been shown to be inaccurate later by researchers, yet can persist nonetheless. The specific example escapes me now, but I know it regards the JFK assassination, some form of inaccurate information that was in one of the first reports form the scene, when the news had its biggest impact.

Two_Buck_Chuck
8/10/2020 09:36:58 am

Hi all,

I had an outlandish idea once but later discarded it as outrageous and unworthy of attention. I jotted it down a few months ago. If nothing else then for entertainment value, I'm going to post it here.

The knock against this is that I think Z couldn't resist taunting and saying his identity was right before your eyes. Anyway, here goes, you must admit this would at least be good in a movie.....

I had an idea, it’s insane I know but we are talking about the Zodiac after all. This case has probably put more people in the nuthouse than even Jack the Ripper, and that’s saying something. Anyway, let me throw this out there before I forget it. It’s probably crazy but I wonder if Zodiac’s location of Washington and Cherry for the murder of Paul Stine has some special significance, perhaps even a clue to his identity?

Let me just throw out some associations. How about the tale of Washington and the Cherry tree. You know the one about “I cannot tell a lie”. Maybe Zodiac is saying I cannot tell a lie and here I am. Now the fact that the original destination stated Washington and Maple could also bear similar significance. I’m talking about clues perhaps using numbers or numerology or even President’s names to perhaps clue us in to his identity.

The Zodiac started on Washington Street (the 1st President) and walked up to Jackson (7th President). Does this have any significance? Does the number 17 somehow mean something? Is he possibly saying his name is also one of the Presidents? You know how he liked to play mind games! Does the address of 3898 Washington Street mean anything? What about the house on Jackson Street where he may have hid, 3760? The murder occurred at 9.55, maybe he was trying to get it to occur at 10 sharp. Any significance? I don’t know, what I’m doing is throwing out an idea and see if anyone else can come up with associations that might lead us to Z’s doorstep. Could he be saying that his last name is the same as the 17th President? (Johnson). Or maybe the 3800 block of Washington Street is pointing to the name of the 38th President (Ford). Perhaps he’s telling us his address, I live on Ford Street or the 1700 block of Johnson. Or maybe 10 o’clock or 9+5+5 means something, the 10th President is Tyler, is his name Tyler or does he live on Tyler Street? Now I don’t even know if these are streets in San Francisco, I’m just throwing out the idea I had as I lay in bed in the middle of the night. Something even crazier, what if some combination of the data points revealed his social security number! Remember, there’s also a cab number and/or tag number here for association. Maybe it’s cab number, 10 o’clock and address on Washington……407….10….3938…….again, I’m brainstorming.

My thought is that there’s an equation, Z= and we have to figure out the variables. He never said anything along these lines but maybe because the clue was fairly easy he didn’t want to just give it away.

I find it also ironic that Presidio means Prison in Spanish. Here I am sitting in the prison waiting for you to come and get me and put me away for good. Is he using symbolism here? I also wonder if he had a house on Jackson that he knew maybe was uninhabited at that time where he could sneak in the back and change clothes or hang out for awhile? I doubt he knew anyone in that neighborhood as those people were pretty wealthy and likely being a loner or almost certainly of a military background, you wouldn’t expect Z to be hobnobbing with Presidio Heights residents.

Ha, thanks for reading..........


Toots
8/11/2020 07:30:14 pm

Two Buck Chuck,
I like your thinking regarding Washington/Cherry and your "President theory".

I believe Z picked Washington/Cherry Streets because of a name association he had with a shooting of a President.

Texas Governor, John Connally, Jr. was seriously wounded while riding in President Kennedy's car.

LBJ was quoted as saying, "Connally could leave more dead bodies in the field with less remorse than any politician I ever knew”.

Throughout most of the Eisenhower administration, Connally served as legal counsel to a wealthy oil magnate.
Rubislaw, this oil magnate reference might be of interest to you.

Look at that name as a coincidence to Zodiac's name.

Rubislaw 32 link
8/11/2020 11:32:03 pm

Accepted with good intention Toots .

But LBJ never showed '' psycho '' tendencies , himself ? ( lol ) .

JFK was '' The man with lifeless eyes '' , and Nixon was kicked out of the Navy , for cheating at poker .

Being a '' psycho '' seems to have been a prerequisite for high office .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/12/2020 01:19:11 am

Was that Armand Hammer , Toots ?

It all ended with the Piper Alpha disaster .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/10/2020 07:21:02 pm

Hi '' Two_Buck_Chuck ''.

With your posting name , my only question would be if you are related , in any way to '' CharlesR '' , who was posting at zodiackillersite,com , last year ?

Two_Buck_Chuck
8/10/2020 08:12:01 pm

No sir.

Rubislaw 32 link
8/10/2020 08:48:42 pm

Thanks for the super-quick reply , Two_Buck_Chuck .

Glenn
8/12/2020 05:44:08 am

George Livermore was a prominent San Francisco architect who, in the mid 1960s, lived but steps from the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets (he did not, however, live there in 1969.)

His mid 1960s Cherry Street residence is listed in FBI documents pertaining to their investigation of William Thoresen III for the murder of Valerie Percy. Thoresen was one of Livermore's wealthy clients, and a suspect in numerous brutal murders by 1966.

I have documented dozens of reasons to suspect Thoresen was Zodiac including the fact that he lived at the corner of Broadway and Broderick, which if you do the math at the bottom of page 2 of the Bus Bomb letter, is pretty much exactly where Zodiac said he was when they were searching the park for him after he killed Stein.

This intriguing find was made by Ophion on his site at https://theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net

https://theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/429/kjell-qvale-livermores-high-society

George Sealy Livermore
DOB: March 18, 1914 San Francisco, CA
DIED: March 3, 2005 San Francisco, CA
PARENTS: Norman Banks Livermore and Caroline Sealy Livermore
SIBLINGS: Norman Livermore Jr., John Livermore, Putnam Livermore and Robert Livermore
SPOUSE(s): Janet Clifton (married 1944-1970)
CHILDREN: Richard Clifton Livermore, Thomas Livermore, William Livermore and Elizabeth Livermore Domergue (died 1999)
MILITARY: U.S. Army
KNOWN ADDRESSES:
215 Cherry St, San Francisco, CA (per 1966 FBI file on Willian E. Thoresen III. Records indicate he lived at this address in 1958)
3153 Pacific Ave, San Francisco, CA (per '69-'70 SF directory. A couple blocks from the Thoresen mansion.)
414 Mason #802, San Francisco, CA
5500 Lake County Hwy, Calistoga, CA
2712 Webster St, San Francisco, CA
1010 Almanor, Menlo Park, CA
1449 McAllister, San Francisco, CA
1469 McAllister, San Francisco, CA
1450 Post St #217, San Francisco, CA

Toots
8/12/2020 03:46:41 pm

Rubislaw,
I dont believe it was Arman Hammer, but rather the oil tycoon, Sid W. Richardson.
Connally was his lawyer.

Also, not sure if it was the Piper Alpha disaster...but if that's what caused the price of oil to fall from $40 a barrel to $10...during that time...then maybe.

Rubislaw 32 link
8/12/2020 03:56:40 pm

I think that you are right , with Sid W.Richardson , Toots .

It's just that Hammer ( Occidental ) had a large influence , on politicians , both home and abroad . Mostly because he made '' conveyancing '' ( bribery ) , his specialty .

He never really wanted to be in the OIl business - it was just a ''vehicle '' of power , that suited his needs . So , the very real tragedy of Piper Alpha , near the end of his working life , was , in a way , some '' poetic justice '' that served him right .

Rubislaw 32 link
8/12/2020 04:37:32 pm

I didn't realise , but can see that Piper Alpha would have had that affect . It was the '' watershed '' the reality check for the Oil Industry ,worldwide . Safety checks and mechanisms were still '' 60's technology . The Majors knew that they would have re-invest heavily , or go under .
It happened to Occidental - but it could have happened to any of them - and they knew it .


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