A BRIEF 20 SECONDS

10/13/2013

The conflicting accounts of police reports after the shooting of taxicab driver Paul Stine, whose vehicle eventually came to rest near the intersection of Washington and Cherry Street on October 11th 1969, has always thrown up more questions than it ultimately answers - as to whether the Zodiac was stopped by two cops, who he claimed "pulled a goof" in the Bus Bomb letter mailed on November 9th 1969.... But was he stopped?

The Zodiac Killer used every opportunity to ridicule the police and authorities in many of his letters, and much of what he claimed is difficult to corroborate. One of the responding officers that night was Donald Fouke, who gave a pretty detailed description of a lone male lumbering on the north side of Jackson Street, right down to the jacket with elastic at the waist and cuffs, rusk colored pleated trousers, low cut tan engineering boots, along with seeing right into his eyes (although was unable to make out their color). According to the 2007 documentary 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' he also recalled the mystery man entering the stairwell of a house, thought to be 3712 Jackson Street.

Armond Pelissetti, another responding officer that night, having been interviewed in the documentary This is the Zodiac Speaking, remembered that the area in question was well lit and did not believe that Officer Donald Fouke saw the Zodiac that night. There are also discrepancies in the two officers accounts on whether the possible suspect was actually stopped.

According to Armond Pelissetti it seemed highly implausible that Officer Donald Fouke and his partner Eric Zelms - had they stopped the killer - would have failed to notice the shine of blood on the man's clothing. It was concluded that even if the mystery man was not stopped, Donald Fouke's extensive descriptive recall in good lighting, for upwards of 20 seconds, should have revealed blood spatter to some degree on the man's attire. Armond Pelissetti came to this conclusion after viewing the extensive blood loss in the front of Paul Stine's taxicab at the intersection of Washington and Cherry.

It has been suggested the killer of Paul Stine could have entered a residence in the area, where he ultimately observed the subsequent police search in and around the area of the Julius Khan playground, alongside West Pacific Avenue. This conclusion was reached due to the comprehensive detail the Zodiac Killer disclosed in the 'Bus Bomb' letter, mailed one month after the murder, on November 9th 1969. The Zodiac Killer claimed he was "hiding in the park", stating "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover". However, this scenario was totally dismissed by Chief of Police Martin Lee, who stated the Presidio Park was flooded by lights and police dogs, and subsequently poured scorn on the suggestion that the Zodiac Killer was somehow hiding out in the area, succinctly stating "a mouse couldn't have escaped our attention".

This being the case, would the Zodiac really have risked entering the pitch black darkness of Presidio Park, observing the unfolding drama, where he risked his scent being picked up by the sniffer dogs, or even more inexplicably entering a nearby residence where any trail could have led the police and tracker dogs straight to his doorstep? Are we to take the Zodiac's letter claims at face value - after all his lies and manipulation were clear to see in much of his correspondence. His claims of the unfolding events that night may suggest that he is an avid observer of the subsequent news reports and little more.

So, which direction did the killer travel that night after the cold blooded execution of Paul Stine? If we rule out the killer being the white male observed by Officer Donald Fouke - who the Zodiac implied was him - then we have several options.
If the killer had walked up Cherry Street and crossed to the north sidewalk of Jackson Street, it could suggest an intention to enter the West Pacific Avenue region by the Julius Khan playground via Maple Street or Spruce Street - to either enter the park and beyond, or be reunited with his vehicle in the backstreets of Pacific Avenue, farther away from the madding crowd. Or he may have kept on straight along the north side of Jackson Street past several intersections to his waiting vehicle. However, the longer he would have spent on Jackson Street, the greater the risk to his capture could be argued.

This also has to be coupled with the known facts, that the killer had been recorded on the trip sheet for a destination of Washington and Maple Street, and for whatever reason (possibly too much activity at this intersection), decided to travel one block further to Washington and Cherry.

It makes complete sense that this murder was a chance encounter and the victim was random, however, the decision to remove a piece of any victim's clothing and mail it to a leading newspaper, was likely preordained. Therefore, a route away from the scene of the crime, being the primary concern, would have been well thought out in advance also. It would have been logical to park his waiting vehicle directly away from his intended destination of Washington and Maple, ideally somewhere at the north end of Maple Street, before Jackson Street - not too close to the crime scene and not too far. If this was the case, the white male observed by Officer Donald Fouke would almost certainly not be the Zodiac Killer, because if his vehicle was parked at this location, the need for the killer to cross to the north sidewalk of Jackson Street after exiting Cherry Street would have been superfluous.

However, if we believe the mystery man spotted by Officer Donald Fouke was the killer of Paul Stine, we again have to question the apparent absence of any blood spatter according to the supposition of Armond Pelissetti, and why a killer having either being questioned and let on his way by the police, or simply observed and passed, would then simply not seek out his waiting vehicle - that an organized preordained murder would suggest. But instead, chose to skulk around in the dark with the scent of blood and gunpowder residue seeping from his attire, along with the possession of the incriminating weapon and the swatch of Paul Stine's shirt. Having, by his admission, been stopped and questioned by police, any venture into the Julius Khan playground could suggest that this was his direct escape route (using the cover of the wooded park) through to a parked vehicle at an alternative location. However, this would seem unnecessary, bearing in mind his intended initial Washington and Maple destination, to have parked at a greater distance than was required for a quick exit. He may have been a resident from the northern region of San Francisco - but again - any great walking distance would have created higher risk while in possession of the gun, shirt piece and trace evidence from the taxicab. A residency too close carries equal perils. The final scenario, is that he simply didn't care - because he always claimed he was 'crackproof' - and sadly so far, this appears to be one of the few truths that has ran from the pen of this merciless killer.

25 Comments

Alex Lewis link

10/13/2013 11:10:49 am

Hey Rich, just read through this article and am going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment on one or two points. First about Fouke not seeing any blood on the clothing of the man on Jackson. Fouke himself gives a hint why he saw no blood. Fouke states "As we approached Maple St. I saw on the North side of the street, A White Male Adult, dressed in....." And he gives a description of the man's garments as he see's him from about 75 yards away. But then, as he describes the man's odd way of walking as 'Stumbling along' the sidewalk with a lumbering, somewhat limping motion he states that "He (The White Male) was putting his head down when he spotted the police, then turned into the entrance way of a house." Well if that is true and that before Don could get close to the man and pull up next to him on the street, then the male had turned onto the steps of 3712 Jackson and would then have his back to officers as they closed the gap. There is a hint that the man turned away from Don & Eric in Don's original Memo from Nov of 69. In that Memo Don makes two observations that, at the time seem odd and out of place, but make sense if the Male did turn onto the steps of 3712. Don's first relevant comment in the original Memo is: "Light Coloured hair, possibly greying at the rear." The second comment relevant is his statement about the male's Pant's/Trousers: "Brown (Rust Brown) coloured Pant's Pleated type and baggy in rear." If the White male had not turned up the steps and was on hs way toward the house and that he had simply walked past Fouke's Cruiser on the sidewalk then Fouke only ever see's this man from the front facing toward each other and if that was the case, how could Don ever has seen the back of this mans head and Pant's? Impossible. However, should the man have turned onto the steps and toward the residence, this would be consistent with Don seeing, then recalling, the back of this man's head and Pant's. I personally am in no doubt at all that the man Fouke saw who turned onto that Driveway was The Zodiac and the reason he turned onto that drive instantly upon seeing Don approach was because he had to have his back to them when they got close to him because the front of his garments were saturated in Paul's wet blood.

Rich

10/13/2013 11:43:48 pm

Armond Pelissetti appears less contradictory than Foukes in the documentary, stating; that Don Foukes had said to him that he stopped a man on Jackson Street and when Foukes asked the man if he had seen anybody, he replied no. It is hard to believe Pelissetti would be confused on such an important verbal exchange.
Also Foukes said he could see his eyes, but could not make out their colour, a strange statement to make if indeed he was 75 yards or 225 feet away. And as he then approaches the man puts his head down, and turns into an entrance to a house, this would have been the time that any eye colour would have been apparent.
It also seems odd a killer so confident to wipe parts of the taxi, considering he claimed he had fingertip guards, and tear a strip from Paul Stine's shirt, would then on spotting the cruiser, draw ultimate attention to himself by putting his head down and turning into the 'dead end' of a house entrance, where any subsequent interrogation could have been awkward. His best option would have been to try and look natural and keep on walking, averting his gaze would definitely have drew suspicion. If this was the Zodiac, then he was extremely fortuitous that the police were looking for a black negro male and his actions never drew more attention.

Alex Lewis link

10/14/2013 12:39:47 am

Well in this documentary Pelissetti does state that Fouke had told him he had stopped A White Male on Jackson Street and asked him had he seen anything suspicious and he the man replied No. But in an earlier documentary Pelissetti states "The other unit stopped someone, a white guy, and asked if he had seen anything suspicious or anybody in the area and the person said 'Yes, a man just ran into the Presidio.' Personally that wouldn't make sense to me because had a white male said he had just seen someone run into the Presidio then I would have thought police would have responded to the area instantly. So, we have Zodiac claiming he directed the police up the hill towards Cherry St, Pelissetti claiming he Directed them to the Presidio grounds, and Fouke claiming he never even spoke to the man. Eric Zelms widow has always maintained down the years that Eric had told her that he and Fouke did stop and speak to a White Man that night.

Daniel

6/28/2018 11:00:54 pm

Someone who didnt lick there own stamps would never be wandering down the street with blood on him that's why he was never caught that was the zodiac he washed the blood off wouldn't surprise me if he had a bottle of water and a wash rag he was a very cagey individual that's why he never paid for his crimes

scout69

2/14/2016 02:04:46 pm

no ZODIAC wasn't in blood his cloths I say it before and continuous saying: ZODIAC KILLER USE A 9MM LUGER AND WAS CARRI HIS 0.38 REVOVLER SHORT CANON, ZODIAC REMOVED HIS BOMBER JACKET AND SHOOT IN THE HEAD TO PAUL USE A BOOK TO NOT GET SPLASH HIS CLOTHS IF ZODIAC KILLER WOULD BE STOPED BY OFFICER FOUKE AND HIS PARNERT WOULD BE KILLED.............ZODIAC WAS READY FOR ROCK AND ROLL

Alex Lewis

10/13/2013 02:16:38 pm

What we know that isn't disputed is that Zodiac executed Paul in is cab at the intersection, hung around the scene for a little while to wipe away evidence, and he was observed by witnesses walking away down Cherry St and toward Jackson st. We know that Zodiac was heading for Jackson St, and we know that coming up Jackson st was Responding Officers Don Fouke & Eric Zelms who saw a white male walking down the hill and away from the actual scene of the crime and that he was last seen by Fouke at or near 3712 Jackson st (I say at or near because in Foukes memo he claims suspect was last observed going North on Maple St, then in 2007 Don says the suspect ha actually turned into the driveway of 3712 and was heading down that properties driveway toward the front door.) So, we know was aware of enough of the search details later in a letter such as the 'two groups of parking about 10 mins apart' and that ' then the motor cycles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west.' So based on Zodiac making these two comments we can assume pretty safely that wherever he was, he could see or at least hear the traffic on West Pacific Avenue. Now we know the grounds of the Presidio were lit with search lights, 7 dogs were loose searching for a recent scent to lock onto, and a small army of police searching the presidio grounds, in Chief Lee's own words, "Tree by Tree and Bush by Bush, a mouse couldn't have escaped our attention" an opinion I share with Lee, Zodiac was not in the grounds of the presidio. But, it seems he was somewhere in that area and close enough to know details of the search effort. So, using those known facts as they stand, it's reasonable to theorise that Zodiac was probably in the rear back yard/garden of the same residence he was last seen going toward. Why? This residence back yard fence is on West Pacific Avenue so if there was ever a place he could be that allowed him to see and hear the vehicles & motor-cycles, that would be it. I am rather surprised at how many people seem to think it not only plausible, but even likely, that Zodiac was sat in his vehicle that was parked on the street close by somewhere. This to me isn't something I can't see likely at all because if he had dived in his vehicle that was close enough to observe the search, then what Zodiac has done is trap himself in a very small space, out in the open, in something that has windows on every side of it for a clear view inside and any person contained therein which means Zodiac has now, in that situation, just made himself a siting duck. Also, Zodiac himself said in the letter that arrived just two days after the incident that " The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover." Well he wasn't in the Presidio grounds that seems almost certain and yet he's telling them they should have just sat in their cars that were already parked all along West Pacific Avenue and waited for him to come out of 'Cover.' He would have had to have been in that residence rear garden that it itself actually on West Pacific Avenue with just a wooden fence separating the road and the house garden.
That is a theory that I think is more than plausible.

Alex Lewis link

10/15/2013 01:27:15 am

I was thinking yesterday about the sequence of events on Oct 11, 69 and how odd a lot of Zodiac's choices were if, as most assume, he was intent on heading for the grounds of the Presidio. After Zodiac fires the fatal shot and kill's Paul he doesn't seem interested in using the vehicle to drives to the Presidio which would have been a much safer option than walking? I mean e could have driven the taxi to Maple entrance or to West Pacific itself. But No, Zodiac decides that he is going to walk the residential streets to the Presidio it is assumed, but if that was the case, why didn't he enter the Presidio via the exit at the top of Cherry Street? Why ignore that quick exit onto West Pacific Avenue and instead turn right onto Jackson St and head for the Maple St. entrance into the Presidio which vastly increases the risk of being seen and/or caught? And the theory of him having his vehicle parked somewhere in the near vicinity of Maple and Jackson would mean that he risks someone spotting a vehicle they don't recognise and recording the plates (This is Pacific Heights remember), or he risks having a police car ticket him for a defective tyre, or some other minor offence which would mean his vehicle is not recorded as being close to the scene. I was thinking that all these decisions would make sense in one scenario: He was heading for a house close by. This would explain why he ignored the much closer exit on Cherry St, because he was never intending to enter The Presidio. It also explains why he would want to drive the taxi to Maple & Jackson entrance if he was intending to duck into a house in that area because that is far too close for comfort. So there are these few odd decision made by Zodiac where he appears to ignore the easier and far safer options available to him in favour of the more risky but can be explained as necessary for him to do if he was heading for a residence and is there any other reason or evidence to suggest he may have been local and heading for a residence? Yes, probably the most overlooked piece of evidence in the entire case, the Eight year old witness on the night who saw the suspect somewhere along his route from the cab to Maple and said she though she recognised him and gave Law Enforcement a name! I've always thought that this single little clue here could be the key to solving the Zodiac case. I've thought for quite a long time now that this is the origin of Zodiac 'School Children make nice targets' threat which arrived just two days after the incident. Could Zodiac have known that the Eight year old saw him and could identify him and that's why he sent what appeared to everyone else to be a random threat to kill school children because it was, in fact, directed at the Eight year old that he knew had seen him that night? Just something to consider. Zodiac did say one Month after this threat in the following letter "If you cops think I'm going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads." which to me sounds as if he's admitting that the treat was a cryptic threat toward the Child who had seen him in Pacific Heights because he's say's if they believed the threat as face value as it appears and really thought he would ever try and attack a bus then they "Deserve to have holes in their heads." I am not saying that this is how and why he did what he did as fact or even that it is my opinion, I am just posting this as an option to consider. :-)

Rich

10/15/2013 03:44:01 am

Interesting ideas. It has also been thought that the murder of Paul may have occurred one block earlier at Washington and Maple, due to the apparent absence of a gunshot being heard by the witnesses, he then placed the taxi in gear and coasted it Washington and Cherry Street, but as you stated he could have continued to a more safe area. I can only conclude he wanted the taxi in full view, in a built up area for shock value, to gain maximum exposure, after all by now he probably thrived on taunting the police and felt crackproof.
You stated above ' why didn't he enter the Presidio via the exit at the top of Cherry Street? Why ignore that quick exit onto West Pacific Avenue and instead turn right onto Jackson St and head for the Maple St.'. Well how do you know he didn't . By consensus he was spotted ambling away up Cherry Street, nobody can ascertain with any certainty where he went after that, he may have carried on, straight into the Presidio, he may have turned left to Arguello Boulevard, he may have entered his car in Cherry Street. We only assume he turned right into Jackson Street, because of the sighting of the mystery white male spotted by Donald Foukes who may or may not have been the Zodiac .
My only problem with him entering a house near by is that, if the police had used sniffer dogs at the taxi crime scene, and the Zodiac was not to know whether they would have chosen this option or not, a waiting Zodiac at a residence observing the action in the park area for any length of time would have been tracked very quickly and have dogs gnarling on his shirt tails. The schoolchildren analysis is good, but unless this 8yr old tracked the killer from taxi to Maple, then the person she spotted could have been anybody. And for that she would have to have been wandering the streets at 10.00pm at night, so any stationary observer is limited, unless she saw the shine of blood on the persons clothing to make him a credible suspect. But the ideas you suggest, without doubt, may well be possible and the schoolchildren angle is worth a closer look as an indirect threat.

Alex Lewis link

10/17/2013 10:36:42 am

Funny you should bring up the dogs and tracking from the taxi. I asked about that a few months ago and was told the dogs were never taken to the taxi, they just went straight to the park. I think this is another mistake made by the authorities.

Alex Lewis link

8/23/2014 03:23:01 pm

The man Fouke saw was Zodiac, pretty sure of that. Why? What Fouke describes him wearing on Oct 11 is exactly what Bryan Hartnell said his attacker was wearing just two short weeks previously (with one or two very minor differences which can be down to light and perception. Both saw a white stocky male wearing a Blue zipper jacket with collar. Both observed Pleated Trousers, brown in colour and we know he wore Wing-Walker boots at Berryessa and Fouke recalls the shuffling male sporting 'engineering type boots' which is what a wing-walker essentially is.
Either Fouke saw the same man who'd attacked Hartnell two weeks before Fouke runs into him or, there a white man on Jackson Street wearing the exact same clothes as Zodiac had two weeks before in what would be the most unlikely of coincidences.

Rich

8/24/2014 07:07:26 am

Yes October 11th was a new moon and from the perspective of the night sky it was pitch black at Presidio Heights, other than the streetlights. The witnesses were viewing from 60 feet away so any description would be tainted by visibility issues, as would the observation by Fouke, as street lighting cast shadows. Colours would be neutralized and size would diminish, and as everybody knows black or dark clothing tends to make someone look slimmer.
I am now pretty sure that this man on Jackson St was the Zodiac, due to him turning into the stairwell of the house, but I believe he was doing this to conceal his blooded left side. I mean you have to question the simple fact that if the Zodiac Killer had walked up the east side of Cherry St, why on earth, if his car was parked somewhere towards the end of Jackson St, why was he seen on the north side of Jackson. He must have crossed the road, but this makes no sense, by doing this he is placing himself in the full glare of approaching police vehicles heading towards the crime scene. He would be better served staying on the south side till the intersection.
However if he had murdered Paul Stine at Washington and Maple and entered the front of the cab, pushing against Stine's body to coast it to Washington and Cherry, then his left side would have predominantly been covered in blood and now logically explain why he was seen on the north side of Jackson, to face his blooded side away from the street and any approaching police vehicles. There may also be an explanation for his lumbering gait. I don't recall Bryan Hartnell, mentioning anything about an impediment or limp.
See here and help me out with any ideas or thoughts.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/presidio-heights-revisited

Robin Smith

12/29/2014 11:54:50 pm

ARGHHHH!....I am at a loss...I can N0t read anymore!.

Everyone keeps talking about Z's car...where he parked it etc!!..what car?...did he go park his car somewhere in Presidio Heights so later when he killed Stine he could have an escape vehicle? say what??

Robin Smith

12/30/2014 12:15:49 am

8 yr old witness...SHE knew the guy SHE saw at the cab? SHE named the guy?

aand we are all chasing our tails/tales here LOL LOL LOL very funny SF TOTALLY crooked PD.

Mayor Alioto(Mob) Hunter Jr, Qvale, Presidio(COS) Michael Aquino, Anton LaVey, Bruce Davis, Stine, Kane, Darlene Ferrin and Donna Lass

Bujok...N0 one mentions the trains in the day were a common mode of travel...as were Greyhound busses and the prison system was rife with conspirators N0t to mention their numerous methods of communicating.

N0w William Peter Blatty surfaces and I find out that he won $10,000 on "You Bet Your Life" and Groucho Marx was a friend of Blatty who wrote the Exorcist in 1970 at a cabin at LAKE TAHOE...well s***

Richard

12/30/2014 01:24:35 am

Follow the link
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-exorcist-letter

Robin Smith

12/30/2014 08:12:32 am

Making a list and checking it twice...gonna find out who has been naughty and who has been nice.

My objective is Donna Lass, Lawrence Kane and WHO was and was N0t in Lake Tahoe Sep 6, 1970.

All these little forays to exotic locales is interesting, but ultimately only people in Lake Tahoe have my full attention.

Lake Tahoe is 22 miles long N0rth to South and 12 miles wide East to West. & 71 miles around it. People who say he (LK) never lived, for example in Incline Village, Nv, are N0t being exactly truthful.

Lake Tahoe is a small place, ONE place, regardless of the Jurisdictional Conflict Zones which are many, if you look at cities, counties and State lines....still ONE place and takes mere minutes to go from any one place to another.

BOATS, especially boats the type Bill Harrah Kjell Qvale and 'Bob' Hunter own or have access to can cross in minutes.

Just one big pool party here folks.

SCOUT69

5/16/2016 05:48:32 pm

KANE not even knew the person he was update was the ZODIAC he was telling all about her ZODIAC found her easy because the information ZODIAC kill her is the same modus operandi ZODIAC have a reasons why has to kill her the main thing is yes was the ZODIAC who kill her

SCOUT69

2/14/2016 02:07:22 pm

THE ZODIAC KILLER NEVER WENT TO THE PARK OR TO PACIFIC COAST.....100% SURE BECAUSE HIS CAR WASN'T AROUNDER.

Andrew Paschen link

6/8/2017 08:19:36 am

I am going to do some brainstorming here.
A couple of months ago, I had the pleasure of visiting the Zodiac related sites in Vallejo, Benicia and San Francisco. I walked the areas and spent some time thinking. I want to share a few brainstorm thoughts regarding the Paul Stine incident in Presidio Heights.
1. I am convinced that Zodiac was not intimately familiar with the area. I think he scoped it out and planned on the area he would kill the cab driver. But he mentioned hiding in the "park" but was not able to name the Julius Khan Playground or the Presidio by name. The only names he used were, "I am the murderer of the taxi driver near Washington and Maple Streets." So, he MUST have scoped it out and even Paul Stine's log book said the destination was "Washington and Maple." There had to be a reason he chose that as the destination.
2. I am also convinced that he had parked his car somewhere on Maple, probably near Jackson and Maple. If he was seen at the corner of Jackson and Maple there HAD to be a reason he was there. Nobody who plans to go out on a kill night would just walk away in an aimless, random direction. He HAD to be headed somewhere.
3. I am convinced that he planned on killing the cabbie on Washington and Maple and then walking a short distance to his car near Jackson and Maple, driving away quickly. But, something at the corner must have spooked him enough to have the cabbie drive an extra block. That would require him to walk off the direction he did, so that he could go back the extra block to his car.
4. I am convinced he used a silencer. That is why nobody heard a shot.Even Mike Mageau seemed to indicate he may have used one in Blue Rock Springs. Have you ever shot an unsilenced gun in a closed car? You would be half deaf for hours.
5. I am convinced Alex is right. I think Zodiac hid in the back yard of 3712 Jackson Street until the cops left. Then he simply walked a very short distance to his car and drove away.

Richard

6/8/2017 09:35:59 am

Hi Andrew, the above article was an early post I wrote many years ago and used to believe the Zodiac parked somewhere close to Jackson and Maple. It made sense, as you suggest, as this was directly north of his original destination. I fully agree that he had scoped out the area, although his knowledge of the area was limited, suggesting he was not a resident of the area, but may have worked or regularly frequented San Francisco. Recently however I do believe he entered the park, and his vehicle was parked in the streets bordering the east side of the park. The reason I believe this is because of the only 'evidence' we have in this case-eyewitness testimony. This is literally all we have to go on. No eyewitnesses saw a man enter the rear of 3712, no eyewitnesses saw a man enter a vehicle by the Jackson and Maple intersection, but eyewitnesses did see a man hurriedly enter Julius Khan playground adjacent to Spruce St. The description the neighbors gave matched very closely to the description given by Donald Fouke only one block away and only moments earlier. Here is their description http://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/7117234.jpg?668
These eyewitnesses saw the man shortly after 10.00 pm. The reason I value this testimony, is there is every reason to believe the man they saw that night was Zodiac, the timeline fits perfectly, along with a valid description and apparently there was more than one eyewitness from the area of Spruce St. Even Toschi formulated Zodiac's possible escape route through the park to the eastern edge and Highway 101. If this was the Zodiac then this would rule out his vehicle being stationed at Jackson and Maple, because he wouldn't have bypassed his vehicle. Also if Zodiac had limited knowledge of the area and had scoped it out, he would have known Spruce St was the first available thoroughfare, without bushes and a retaining wall. It has direct access to the park. I believe his original plan was to exit from Washington and Maple as you suggest, leaving a separation of one block north and one block east from his intended original crime scene destination. In other words, out of view from anybody seeing him travel up Maple and possibly seeing him enter his vehicle. If he drove a beat up vehicle, it may have stood out in the wealthy district of Presidio Heights, close to a murder, and may have blocked access to a homeowner parking their vehicle. Setting a parked vehicle somewhere in the Cow Hollow region, on the eastern edge of Presidio Park offers separation from the crime, cover from the unlit park and easy access to Highway 101, straight over the Golden Gate bridge to Vallejo or American Canyon. I actually believe the Zodiac's claims in the Bus Bomb letter, he was even correct about the meeting with Fouke and Zelms, before it was even published in the newspapers. However this is only my opinion, and this may change in the future. The only reason I go with this scenario is because of the eyewitness testimony. Unless somebody can give me good reason to disbelieve these eyewitnesses, or discredit their recollections, it's the best thing we have. I too certainly cannot rule out the use of a silencer, it certainly makes sense when killing somebody in a built up area, only yards from somebodies front door. Although a gun pressed into somebody's head would certainly inhibit the sound, if the killing happened at Washington and Cherry at all. Alex too gives a credible argument and this is probably one of the few things we disagree on. This is my view on Presidio Heights, but am always open to change Andrew. Here is my timeline if you are interested.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/presidio-heights-minute-by-minute

Alex Lewis link

6/14/2017 07:11:17 pm

For Me, Zodiac does what FBI refer to as 'Over-Selling' by over and over again claiming He was either in, on His way to, disappeared into the park. Park Park Park.

Secondly, and this really is hard to argue a good and logical theory against it, is if Zodiac intended to dash into the Park all along, then never mind the 'Maple vs Cherry' puzzle, the question overlooked by those who promote a Zodiac in the Park theory is: Why Washington and Any Street...be it Cherry or Maple? If your destination is the Presidio/Park then surely your going to ask Paul to take you to Jackson & Maple, not Washington & Maple? Why leave an unnecessary extra block to have to backtrack over?

All Zodiac is doing, for My way of seeing it anyway, is offering multiple subtle references to the park to get readers to subconsciously accept/believe that's where He was heading and ended up. It's classic misdirection, that's all He's doing. He's directing attention to the Park where an army of cops, searchlights and 6 K-9 units are unable to flush Him out (because He isn't there IMO) lest we stop looking there and focus on residential addresses near-by!

Richard

6/15/2017 12:37:36 am

This is one of the rare topics we differ on Alex, but it makes for good discussion, and your idea of Zodiac 'promoting' or selling the park idea is a good one and totally logical. My only reservations with the Washington and Maple log book entry, is that we only know that this was what Zodiac told Paul Stine. We don't actually know he didn't intend to go to Jackson and Maple, and some unforseen circumstance happened (the one that sent Paul Stine to Washington and Cherry. We all believe he intended to go to Washington and Maple, but something occurred sending him one block further. But we do not know he ever intended going there. That is just what the trip sheet said. But if he had intended to go to Jackson and Maple, then that would make more sense for the park escape...possibly. Because if you committed the murder at Jackson and Maple, there is more risk of being spotted by somebody seeing you enter the park. Entering a residence is certainly something I don't dismiss Alex, far from it. The only issue I have with it, is like I said above. If the Zodiac didn't enter the park, we have to contend the the eyewitnesses at Spruce St/ residences overlooking Julius Khan playground, spotted a random man running into the park at 10.00 pm at night, whose description almost mirrored that of Donald Fouke moments earlier, in which the timeline fits, that looked like Zodiac, that wasn't Zodiac. Or less likely they're all mistaken or lying. I know Toschi was acting on this information, because congregating the sniffer dogs at the last known location of the suspect, that of Julius Khan playground, makes perfect sense. Additionally anybody who entered a back garden or residence nearby, would surely have been tracked by these hounds. Martin Lee contended that even a mouse would have been tracked if Zodiac had entered the park. That is true, but only if your standing still, which I doubt very much he was. But I reiterate, the MAIN reason I believe the park scenario, is the eyewitness testimony. All I am looking for Alex, is one good reason to totally dismiss the several eyewitnesses near Spruce St. And finally just one piece of evidence to corroborate Zodiac entering a residence, for which so far there is none. I take the eyewitnesses everyday of the week, but am certainly not open to change. Zodiac is overselling the park, but he was a braggart and boaster. But Alex, we may have to agree to disagree for a few more years yet, until the old bastard walks into the cop station holding Paul Stine's driving license. But as you quite rightly said, they would still probably send him on his way. Of course denying they ever spoke to him. Even if Donald Fouke had been playing on the swings with Zodiac, he likely would have said no, I was in the sandpit.

Richard

6/15/2017 12:43:01 am

CORRECTION:
"but am certainly not open to change", should have read 'Open to change'.

Alex Lewis

6/15/2017 01:44:50 pm

<<<Preferred the original misprinted version as it made Me chuckle after realising you actually meant the complete opposite of what You had stated.

It conjured up images in my mind of You sat at your PC/Laptop & thumping Your fist down repeatedly on the desk "For I care nothing for Your Opinions Alex, Your argument may be logical and reasonable yes, but You can F*** off all the same cause I am CERTAINLY NOT open to even the idea of Change. Good day!"

<<Highly amused and chuckling now.

Alex Lewis

6/15/2017 07:15:45 pm

Yeah its ok to disagree Rich. When difference of opinions comes with an acknowledgment that neither You nor I can prove beyond a doubt We are correct & could turn out We are both wrong.

I think it works Rich with You and I as there's no huge ego clash where One or both of us becomes extremely offended that the other disagrees and opposes a view held. Accepting and doing so happily that I have the real possibility to be wrong and in error in what I think, believe or conclude sits absolutely fine with me.

And yes, if Fouke observed horn rimmed wearing face appearing from within Presidio Bush and drew down on offending hedge with 'Freeze! Step out of your bush with your hands in the air..." Z would come out claiming to be the groundsman going "What? What? Whats wrong? I'm uprooting weeds and planting pretty flowers officer."

Fouke and His account has evolved so many times I'm half expecting a 2019 Documentary with Fouke recalling:

"The individual I saw that night was a Grey Alien Adult, 35 to 45 hundred Years of age and about 2 ft 10' tall. Seeing that it was a GMA walking along in an affluent area, I didn't think it was the suspect because He turned into the entrance way of a Mother-ship."

Richard

6/15/2017 04:30:52 am

9.59 pm: Donald Fouke-"WMA, 35-45 yrs, about 5'10", 180-200 lbs, medium heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear, crew cut, wearing glasses, dark clothing".
10.01 pm: Neighbours by Spruce-"suspect described as about 40 yrs age, white, 170 lbs, a blond crewcut wearing glasses, dark clothing".
The question has to be, what is a 40 year old bloke doing running into a pitch black Presidio park at 10 o' clock at night for. As Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry "When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he ain't out collecting for the Red Cross."

When a 40 year old man is chasing into the Presidio at 10 pm at night without a torch, I figure he ain't chasing squirrels"

A BRIEF 20 SECONDS

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