ZODIAC CIPHERS
Richard Grinell, Coventry, England
  • Home
    • Search This Site With Google
    • My Interview on the Zodiac Killer Channel
    • The Mount Diablo Map and Code Solution
  • Zodiac News
    • Zodiac News Archives
    • Santa Barbara Attack
    • Cheri Jo Bates
    • The Confession
    • Riverside Desktop Poem
    • Bates Letter
    • The Forgotten Victims
    • Zodiac RSS Feed
    • Welsh Chappie - Zodiac News
  • Lake Herman Murders
    • Blue Rock Springs Attack
    • Vallejo Times Letter
    • Examiner Letter
    • Chronicle Letter
    • Complete 408 Cipher
    • Vallejo and Benicia Map
    • Kathie Snoozy and Debra Furlong Murders
    • Debut of Zodiac Letter
  • Lake Berryessa Attack
    • Presidio Heights Attack
    • Call to Chat Show
  • 340 Cipher
    • Bus Bomb Letter
    • Betsy Aardsma Murder
    • The Fairfield Letter
    • Melvin Belli Letter
    • Santa Barbara Murders 1970
    • Modesto Attack
    • My Name is Cipher
    • Dragon Card and Button Letter >
      • Phillips Road Map
    • The Sleeping Bag Murders
    • The Little List Letter
  • The Halloween Card
    • Lake Tahoe Disappearance
    • Los Angeles Times Letter
    • The Monticello Card
    • The Exorcist Letter
  • SLA Letter
    • Red Phantom Letter/American Greetings Card
    • The 1978 Letter
    • Zodiac Letters Real or Fake
    • Zodiac Documentary
    • Zodiac Killer Net Forum - Hot Topics
    • Unsolved Mysteries
    • The Colonial Parkway Murders
  • Suspects
    • Arthur Leigh Allen
    • Rick Marshall
    • Lawrence Kane
    • Theodore Kaczynski
    • Richard Gaikowski
    • Gareth Penn
    • Jack Tarrance

10.11.69 - THE END OF THE ROAD

10/11/2018

 
The following is a brief explanation of the crime scene photographs regarding the murder of Paul Stine in Presidio Heights on October 11th 1969. It is designed to address the correct sequence of events that night for anyone new to the case.

The Robbins children observed the murderer wipe down the taxicab that night, as detailed in the police report: "The suspect appeared to be searching the victim's pockets. (Witnesses never heard a gun shot). The suspect then appeared to be wiping (fingerprints) on the interior of the cab, leaning over the victim to the driver's compartment. The suspect then exited the cab by the passenger side front door, also wiping with a white rag, possibly a handkerchief. The suspect then walked around the cab to the driver's side and proceeded to wipe the exterior of the left door area."
This being the case, it would be very unusual for a killer to be wiping away fingerprints from the taxicab, had he used guards on his fingertips as claimed in the 'Bus Bomb' letter mailed on November 9th 1969: "As of yet I have left no fingerprints behind me contrary to what the police say in my killings I wear transparent fingertip guards. All it is is 2 coats of airplane cement coated on my fingertips -- quite unnoticible + very efective."

In a follow up statement the Robbins children went into more detail: "They both watched and observed in silence as Zodiac pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the driver's door. Stine had fallen over onto the seat and Zodiac pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. When he was finished, Zodiac calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked north."

When the Zodiac Killer left the crime scene Paul Stine's body must have slumped back across the passenger seat, because when Officer Armond Pelissetti arrived shortly thereafter, he stated "When I went over to the cab I could see Mr Paul Stine, who was slumped over the front seat with his head into the well on the passenger side in the front." 
There was extensive blood pooling in the footwell (shown in photograph 1 below). 
 
PicturePHOTOGRAPH 1
This photograph can be estimated at approximately 10:11 pm.

​When the ambulance crew arrived shortly before 10.10 pm, they pulled Paul Stine from the passenger footwell into the position shown on the left. They pronounced him dead at 10:10 pm.
 
It can be seen that there is a complete absence of blood on the tarmac below Paul Stine's head. This indicates that once they pulled him into this position to check for signs of life (causing the splashing of blood from his hands - shown by the white arrow), the photograph must have been taken almost immediately after they vacated the passenger side door. Otherwise there would have been blood present on the roadside beneath Paul Stine's head, as was evident in photograph 2 below.

This indicated that once the medical personnel had arrived at the taxicab and pulled Paul Stine into the position shown, their evaluation must have been brief. It was immediately determined that Paul Stine showed no signs of life and certainly negated any need to circle the taxicab depositing bloody fingerprints on the dividing panel by the driver side door. 

PicturePHOTOGRAPH 2
In photograph 2 on the right, it can be seen the devastating impact of the murder, as the blood on the roadside continues to accumulate. This is the reason why photograph 1 must have been taken almost immediately after the ambulance crew retreated.

One unusual feature is the door position. Did the ambulance crew pull Paul Stine into this position without fully opening the door? Were they mindful of preserving the crime scene by their own volition, or under instruction?  Their priority was clearly the welfare of Paul Stine and determining signs of life - but if they had opened the passenger door fully, then it must have either fell back to the position shown on the right or been manually placed back in this position.   

The reasoning for this is shown in photograph 3. 

PicturePHOTOGRAPH 3
The door in the photograph on the left is now fully open. This is the position one would have expected the door to be located when the medical personnel were attending to Paul Stine, thereby giving them ample room to pull Paul Stine from the footwell and examine for signs of life. But the door only allowed for restricted access in photographs 1 and 2.

When the medical personnel extricated Paul Stine from the taxicab, a street guide was dragged out onto the roadside. This indicated that it was probably located under the body of Paul Stine on the passenger seat of the vehicle. This sheds doubt on the premise of a front seat passenger, although it cannot rule it out entirely.  

PicturePHOTOGRAPH 4
The photograph on the right shows the passenger door in the same position as photograph 3.

The relationship between the inner door handle (in brown on photograph 4) and the blood on the roadside can be seen as markedly different from photograph 2 (and therefore photograph 1).

The similar wider door positions in photograph 3 and photograph 4, indicate that the door was pulled open to acquire better pictures of the inside of the taxicab, before they eventually removed the body of Paul Stine.

This brief timeline takes us from the moment the Zodiac Killer left the front passenger seat of the taxicab, to the time the street guide was photographed on the roadside.

The poignant reminder of a journey that has now lasted 49 years - but a murder that should never be forgotten.

Judith
10/11/2018 07:14:25 am

Sounds like a very messy crime scene with various Personnel coming and going all over that cab. any good defense attorney would cut it into smithereens. But there are eye witnesses, the kids saw the Killer. It is their physical description which is accurate.
This appears to be a very well planned out attack including an exit route. Why then wouldn't zodiac cover his fingertips with the two coats of airplane glue before hand? Things didn't go as well as he planned did they? After this crime he would go underground.

Gaspar R
10/11/2018 10:29:29 am

"Sounds like a ...crime scene with various Personnel coming and going all over that cab"
How can you possibly make that presumption?

RTF
10/11/2018 07:28:17 am

Seems it was important for Z to pose Stine's body - upright again behind the wheel. As if the cabbie would appear to have nodded off to sleep to a casual observer - or to be sitting awaiting a fare.

But with the cab being parked at an angle to the kerb and Stine's bib area being blood soaked, it doesn't seem likely that this "posing" was a realistic attempt at making the scene look non-suspicious.

A strange thing to waste valuable time doing.

BB
10/11/2018 01:14:00 pm

Witnesses never heard a gun shot - was Stine shot at Washington and Cherry? Or driven there from a block or two back?

Richard
10/11/2018 02:57:36 pm

Nobody knows for certain - take your pick.

BB
10/11/2018 05:07:14 pm

shot in the head 49 years ago today - d-day

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/18127217/paul-lee-stine#view-photo=108098807

Rubislaw 32 link
10/11/2018 07:12:16 pm

Gosh..it had escaped my notice,BB.

Recently,been thinking more about LHR,and its 50th anniversary for David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen.on December 20th.

But also,November 22nd 1969,and the release of,what has become,the ''Gold Standard'' in popular music.The Beatles White Album.Its impact on a whole generation,and art critics,alike,was phenomenal.

Not least,The Zodiac and Charles Manson [?].

Someone commented recently,that its opening song,''Back in the USSR'',is Donald Trump's favourite ''ditty''.

I think that they were serious.

Nobody
10/12/2018 06:30:36 pm

The Beatles? We are all entitled to our opinions, but I just went through all of the Zodiac correspondence and cannot see much evidence there to support a love for the Beatles. Are there any really overt references, or are they "hidden" references that you believe you have uncovered? There is possibly one vague reference to Yellow Submarine, I will give you that, but it is not at all obvious and requires a bit of imagination to form a link. It is in a "maybe" area for me.

One would think if he was an avid Beatles fan he would have been more specific about it. There were millions of Beatles fans at that time, so he would hardly have been giving too much away regarding his identity.

I am sure if someone forged enough links, it may also be possible to find obscure links to the Rolling Stones and any number of popular groups or songs from the time.

Are you a Beatles fan yourself by any chance?

For all we know, the Zodiac may have hated the Beatles. I get the feeling his music tastes may have belonged to a much earlier and simpler era, but I too could be wrong.

Judith
10/11/2018 08:32:53 pm

Do you feel as though the Zodiac was using a gun silencer?

art
10/11/2018 09:47:11 pm

I assume the gunshot inside the cab with the doors closed is an effective muffle (?)

Rubislaw 32 link
10/12/2018 02:24:33 am

I am not sure of the circumstances of the teens,and how they were alerted to the crime of Stine's murder.

I have read that their were reports of a gunshot heard,in the neighbourhood,but these reports were not consistently,throughout the neighbourhood.

Then,speculation on Stine's cab windows.Various reports,from one third of the drivers window open....to three windows open.

There is nothing on record,off a silencer being used by Stine's perpetrator.Nor autopsy report inferring this possibility,though stand to be corrected.

There will be various opinions.I believe that Stine's cab was a veritable reverberation chamber,and that ''Zodiac'' received perforation damage,to at least,his right ear drum.

The initial ringing in his ears,would not have been comfortable,for him......but adrenaline would have largely kicked in,on that brief period,and may have overridden his discomfort.

I think that Zodiac's disembarkation,from the crime scene,and eventual getaway,by means of,in all probability,a motorcar,is the aspect to the crime,that Zodiac would have practised most.

The prospect of him doing this ''half deaf'',when not fully understanding its full implications [...disorientation,affect on balance,nausea,etc....],is quite a thought,to take in.If indeed,this was the case.

Richard
10/12/2018 02:59:49 am

Due to the extensive research done by Randall Scott Clemons, I believe that 3 windows were rolled, but I'd have to go back and check to be certain. Depending on how close the shot to Paul Stine's head, will alter the muffling afforded to it, A shot inside the confines of a taxicab, will also reduce the audible volume of the firearm. Maybe the three teenagers heard something that alerted them to look out of their window but didn't recognize it as a gunshot. They probably heard some background noise, but didn't recognize it as a firearm, but that is totally different to, did they hear a gunshot or not. They likely heard something. The alternative is that they just happened to look out of the window in passing.

Richard
10/12/2018 03:06:47 am

I don't know what experience three young teenagers in Presidio Heights would have had with respect to firearms, but it's possible the nearest they had come to hearing gunshots was the westerns they watched on television. With a muffled shot inside a taxicab from 60 feet away, through glass, would not have sounded like the gunshots they had been accustomed to, and consequently described hearing no gunshot. But subconsciously something may have drawn them to the window.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/12/2018 03:31:11 am

It is difficult to be certain about many aspects,to that brief period,Richard.And,as I believe you have inferred,any official reports,tend to be exceptionally ''potted'',in comparison to was is believed to be documented,for the purpose of the authorities' benefit.

Just on the disembarkation side,I believe that you have recently put forward the idea that,Zodiac had earmarked ''Laurel''.I go long with this,but see Zodiac earmarking that stretch,between Laurel and Cherry,as opposed to a specific spot.This,based on Zodiac,figuring that pedestrians,or more particularly ''lack of them'',would determine where Zodiac would indicate to Stine,to pull into the sidewalk.

This is why I mention,where practise was invested.I think Zodiac would become well versed in every inch of the ''Jackson'' vicinity.

In effect,the ''bridge'' between the crime scene,and Zodiac's getaway car.

Ray
10/12/2018 10:42:25 am

Not sure he was thinking clearly. It would have made more sense to commit the crime on Jackson - closer to the cover of the Presidio.

Or commandeer the cab into a remote area of the Presidio.

Or maybe he wanted to be caught that night.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/12/2018 06:23:29 pm

It's certainly a valid point ''Ray'',about committing the crime,closer to the cover of Presidio.

I believe the general opinion would be that,that end of Washington Street,was a sort of ''Mayfair'' of SF....with Jackson Street,closer to an ''Old Kent Road''....in Monopoly parlance,naturally.

With Zodiac,in retrospect,having grandiose aspirations,and ''showmanship'',that went along with those aspirations.

But yes,desire to be caught could be on the table....but,it does appear that,the allocation of a getaway vehicle,that seemed to be part of his overall plans,indicates real desire,to abscond.

Perhaps,he later saw the scenario,of handing himself over to Melvin Belli,as an inevitability,if he remained free from capture,much longer [?].

Richard's idea of Laural St is persuading,since the stretch between its corner,on Washington St.,and the corner of Maple St,perfectly mirror the Julius Khan playground,on a basis of sitting parallel.

Its almost as if Zodiac had decided that if he allowed Stine,to drive past the Maple St. corner....then it was his,Zodiac's,last chance to make his mind up,as to whether he was going to kill Stine,or not.

Had there been pedestrians in the vicinity of ''Cherry and Maple'',it seems likely that Zodiac would have asked Stine,to pull over anyway.....then just casually make his way,into the night,as a law abiding pedestrian.

Judith
10/12/2018 10:41:36 am

Yes Rubi

Rubislaw 32 link
10/12/2018 12:06:50 pm

Indeed Judith...and ''touche'' to you,for casting doubt on fingerprints gleaned....or rather,the chance that they weren't...and meant,genuinely.

''Other considerations'' do include,for me,that magic phrase ''latent prints''.

This,on account that there is a possibility,that Zodiac's journey,was in two parts....entirely orchestrated,by Zodiac....which involved him,getting out of the cab,and getting back in,at the conclusion of the ''first journey''.

The real key,to much of the mysteries,surrounding the Paul Stine murder...may well be uncovered,in the documentation of Stine's journey ''trip sheet''....for which the authorities,naturally,will not allow publication.

But while those mysteries still exist....you,Judith,have every right to hold a particular opinion,on ''prints''.

Touche.

Ray
10/12/2018 08:17:46 pm

Rubislaw, you make some good points.

I tend to take Zodiac at his word though that he hid in the Presidio.

That would mean, in my opinion, that the getaway car would be parked outside one of the Presidio exits.

So that would make for a longer escape trek than if he'd committed the crime on Jackson.

I'm actually going down there tomorrow - I'll try to take some photos. I'm also interested to have another look at the Presidio parking situation behind JK Playground - which I believe is what an SFPD examiner suggested years ago was a possible parking spot for the getaway car.

Sully link
10/12/2018 09:21:50 pm

Hey Ray - I took the SF 'Zodiac walk' recently and had a few questions.
Why didnt Z choose to shoot Paul a block (or 2) closer to JK Park so he could slip into the Presidio quicker?
Why did he choose 3712 Jackson St for his very brief respite. The Z walk took alot longer than I had originally thought! Let us know about your stroll.

Nobody
10/12/2018 09:46:58 pm

Yes Sully, the location is puzzling. He could have committed this crime in many other places, for example far out in the suburbs where he conceivably had a better chance of escape. It does seem likely that he had to either lay low in the city for some time until things cooled off or he left in a strategically parked car.

The man the cops saw lumbering along may not have been the Zodiac. He could have been someone else who was alarmed by all the sirens and trying to get home as quickly as possible so he could be out of harm's way.

Sully link
10/12/2018 11:27:31 am

Z tried to prop Stine up after cutting up his shirt, according to Lindsey, but maybe he gave up when his hands got too bloody ?? SFPD still has that bloody palmprint taken off the taxi exterior, for what it's worth...

Ray
10/12/2018 09:59:29 pm

Sully & Nobody,

I agree, not the optimum location to commit a crime, especially at a 4 way intersection. I'm guessing on some level he wanted to be caught - and/or wanted to challenge himself.

Anything's possible but I suspect the lumbering walker was the Zodiac. Not many people walking around in Presidio Heights, especially at night, unless they're walking a dog.

BB
10/12/2018 11:28:49 am

ALA and PLS shared a b-day, and Stine's wallet was taken.
Could ALA have wanted to switch ID with PLS.
ALA lost his job as an elementary school teacher in 1968 for molesting school children - which could make getting a job difficult.
Paul Lee Stine looked similar, and ALA went by Lee.
This is just food for thought. ALA Bragged to Spinelli to being the Zodiac and that he would prove it by going to San Francisco and "killing a cabbie."
Maybe he did.

William Norton
10/12/2018 02:29:15 pm

Be careful about Ralph Spinelli and guys like Sandy P. and Don C.

Nobody
10/12/2018 06:35:23 pm

Many years ago Tom Voigt posted up some poor resolution photos of the Zodiac's alleged prints. I am not sure how he sourced them or from who or where they came.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/19/934.html?1169913448

Judith
10/12/2018 10:21:58 pm

So here's the issue with prints, as far as I know, no one set of prints from one scene or letter matches another. Perhaps law enforcement does have that evidence and is not revealing it to the public, but why then would they waste their time coming to interview me all the way from San Francisco if they had definitive fingerprints? I just don't believe that they do. There may be partials, much like this partial DNA they claim to have used to eliminate suspects. So perhaps elimination of suspects occurred based on partial DNA and partial prints. Napa Sheriff's indicated that the suspect Matrix had a lot of people in it.
I also feel that the Paul Stein murder was very well planned out. The planning being part of the Psychopath's thrill and fun. But as you all know, things don't always go as planned. I also believe he walked all the way to the end of Cherry down into the loop and onto the footpath that leads directly in to the Presidio. I don't believe that Fouke saw the Zodiac Killer.
Now I have tried to express before the terror that might beset someone who knows who this killer is. And the fact that this killer is still at large. And the fact that this killer could identify you. How willing would you be to come forward and yell really loud about exactly what the Killer looks like? Or that yes, you did pull over and he indicated a man was running by with a gun and you drove off? What would a Michael Mageau say as the years went on knowing the killer was still at large and that the killer knew exactly who Mike is? How would it feel to know that he's watching you and knows who you are?
As Peter once told a client of mine that made me cry, "I know where you live."

Nobody
10/13/2018 12:27:02 am

They do have prints Judith and are confident enough to rule out suspects. I can tell you this with some certainty. Several years ago I asked a member of LE about a certain recently incarcerated offender who I thought may have been the Zodiac. I had a good theory of circumstantial evidence that suggested he could be their man. The member of LE found my theory compelling enough to take an interest. He asked me to wait. It only took him a few minutes to look up both the offender and the Zodiac prints on the computer database and do a cross check. He gave me a definite answer straight away. He told me my suspect was not the Zodiac and should be ruled out because the prints do not match. He could also tell me that at the time of the Zodiac killings my suspect was living out of the state at that time. So there you have it. They most certainly do have prints are they are evidently good enough to be used in cross referencing. The fact that California has all offenders prints on their database, including the Zodiac prints, tells me that a match with known offenders has never been found.

Yes Judith, it is perhaps easy for armchair critics to pick holes in the testimonies of witnesses, but I wonder if those same critics had been witnesses themselves if they would have been so talkative? The killer knew their identity and could easily have found out where they were living, so the fear factor alone could well be the reason for apparent half-truths, guarded testimonies and additions/subtractions to an original story.

Judith
10/13/2018 10:40:55 am

What law enforcement told you was that your suspects prints didn't match the prints they have on file suspected of being the Zodiac prints. This is the same crap they told me years before DOJ thought it was important now to interview me regarding Peter Plante. It's a line they used to get rid of people who think they have a suspect. So sorry.

Richard
10/13/2018 03:16:14 am

If you look at the photographs 'nobody' you notice that blood is heavily dripping onto the tarmac. The responding medical crew, once they pulled Paul Stine into the above position, they couldn't have spent hardly any time assessing Paul Stine because by the time they retreated and photograph 1 was taken, literally no blood is beneath his head despite us knowing he is still bleeding out. Therefore, the time they spent from pulling Paul Stine into this position, checking for vital signs and retreating for photograph 1 to have been taken must have been a very short time (almost certainly less than 30 seconds).
Had they spent several minutes attending to Paul, then for sure, photograph 1 would have looked more like photograph 2, or at the very least somewhere in between. It must have been fairly obvious immediately nothing could be done for Paul Stine. Checking his pupils for light reaction could be done in seconds. The involvement of the ambulance crew, other than the removal of the body, would have been extremely short-lived, thereby negating the premise of medical personnel wandering around the taxicab. The idea that some may have entered the driver side door makes no sense whatsoever. What purpose could there have been for this after determining no signs of life.
I read on a forum that they may have opened the driver side door to check on Stine, but in the photograph of the scene through the driver side window, after medical crew had retreated, the driver side door is still closed as it remained throughout. They would like us to believe that medical personnel opened the driver side door, then re-closed it before the photograph was taken, all of course without gloves. I don't know the protocol of ambulance crew in America, but I guess where a crime scene is involved, they wear gloves like the rest of advanced countries.
The movie depicts a bullet casing being picked up using a pen I believe, so as not the place fingerprints on it. But apparently if police were careful with the casing in this instance, we have to assume that for the rest of the taxicab they didn't give a damn and just splashed their fingerprints around willy-nilly. Of course, today, there is no way a bullet casing would be lifted using a personal pen or pencil because you would be contaminating the casing with your own DNA, something they weren't familiar with in 1969.

Richard
10/13/2018 04:25:00 am

None of us know exactly the movements of everybody after personnel arrived at the crime scene, but we like to think that certain guidelines of crime scene management was employed. Even we know the importance of crime scene preservation, so to then assume that police and medical crew would abandon this notion in some sort of disorganized chaos is often used to cloud the validity of certain avenues of evidence. Even if the articles of Lake Berryessa were bundled up and rammed in a box, completely throwing away the concept of good crime scene management, it is disingenuous to use this one example and then apply it across the board, stating "well it can happen". It can happen, but if we use a tangential approach to murder investigations of selecting an extreme example of what happened or could have happened, then we just create an ever expanding list of what may be's. Is it possible a coach or heavy good vehicle travelled along Lake Herman Road and 7 burly men got out and killed the couple. Is it possible that Pierre Bidou spotted the couple necking, leaped out of his police vehicle and shot them with a secret weapon. Is it possible David shot BLJ and then a passerby disarmed him and shot him with the same gun. Just because you cannot rule these preposterous ideas out, doesn't in some way validate them. I read somewhere on Reddit that Paul Stine was proposed as the Zodiac Killer, in an ever expanding list of absurd suspects that has included Donald Harden, David Toschi, Robert Graysmith and Richard Hoffman. I could resolutely claim that the murderer at Lake Herman arrived by helicopter and state the kicker "prove me wrong". Like a gotcha moment - if you cannot prove me wrong my idea hasn't been invalidated. I honestly believe if a full DNA profile was discovered that matched through several letters or crime scenes, not all, but a significant proportion of people who have invested years in a particular suspect, will not accept this as evidence that rules out their suspect. The brain matter will start whirring, to concoct numerous ways to discredit the evidence, or start employing the tag-team mentality of more than one perpetrator.
In the absence of knowing the exact events of Presidio Heights, isn't it logical to start with a game of percentages of what is most reasonable. Did Zodiac have a slight paunch or did he wear a fat suit, did he rest Paul Stine's head in his lap while he was bleeding profusely or lean over him. Was the suspect spotted by Donald Fouke Zodiac, or did he simply agree with facial features of the sketch just for the hell of it. Did Zodiac send the shirt piece or was it an elaborate hoax stolen from the morgue by interdepartmental conspirators through four jurisdictions. Using the logical choices may get us closer to the real answer, rather than looking for the unlikeliest answers to explain away what we cannot reconcile. The logical answers aren't always the correct ones, but they are the starting point of most investigations. Most people are killed by people they know, so logically police start with the inlaws rather than the outlaws. Eliminate the family and friends before searching wider afield. This is the basis of police work.

Nobody
10/13/2018 06:30:09 am

The most peculiar of the unlikely theories I have read is the one which suggested Bryan Hartnell was the Zodiac or he was in cahoots with the Zodiac. Who are these strange people who concoct these ideas? Do they really believe their own malarkey? Or are they merely trying to entertain us?

The same problems apply to cipher solutions, Richard. Just because an idea cannot be disproven, this does not make it valid. Authors of cipher solutions often resort to asking others to contribute their solutions so they can highlight problems with the competition, thus making their own solution seem the most "correct". This "slight of hand" trickery represents a fundamental failure of the logical process. To believe any solution is correct simply because it cannot be proven or because all alternative suggestions are presumed by default to be wrong, is purely and simply bad logic. Yet we see it being used all the time.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 06:16:42 am

Indeed..those who push the boundaries of credulity,just to keep their suspect ''in the game''.

I want everything that Law Enforcement is able to give us,so that we can,at least,come to some sensible conclusions,if they,LE,are still unable to solve the case.

One of my ''pets'' is ''unconfirmed'' correspondence.Not because I necessarily believe in it,collectively,as authentic.But I believe it is worth examining all available material....and then be able to judge it,with ''reasonable'' confidence.If it is simply dismissed,out of hand,who knows,how much,one might be missing out,from it [?].

My main intention,Richard,in posting,is to ask you a question ?

The general feedback,and over the years is,that the SFPD dealt with Paul Stine's crime scene,as professionally,as they were able.And it appears likely,that no great ''hiccups'' occurred,in them dealing with the crime scene.from a forensics analysis viewpoint''.

We know that the Zodiac removed the cab's ignition keys,leaving the engine running.Perhaps,to perpetuate the anti-social noise and exhaust fumes,after absconding [?].

Do you know,how this was dealt with ? Clearly,the engine had to be turned off,and I wondered if an officer,perhaps may have been granted permission,to enter the cab,for this purpose [?].To disconnect wiring [?].Or,could it have been dealt with,by opening the hood [?].

Richard
10/13/2018 06:47:05 am

I am assuming the taxicab meter was connected to the engine and drive system in some capacity. The meter was still running at 10.46 pm.
Responding officers would later notice the taxicab meter read $6.25 at 10.46 pm, thereby allowing them to backtrack the journey using running and idle time rates of the meter. Therefore I assume the taxicab was idling throughout the time police and medical personnel were on scene.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 07:08:26 am

Oh...it seems that they allowed the engine to still run....even though,it was just ''idling'' [?].

Richard
10/13/2018 06:41:00 am

FBI FILES "Enclosed for the bureau are the two copies of unsigned and undated envelope, which envelope is addressed SF Chronicle, Please Rush to Editor postmarked 10.13.69. For information of the Bureau and Sacramento, Inspector David Toschi, San Francisco Police Department advised on 10.17.69 that above described letter and envelope were received by the San Francisco Chronicle and furnished to the San Francisco Police Department. Inspector David Toschi stated that latent prints were obtained from the letter, and as soon as photographic copies of same can be reproduced, they will be furnished to this office with a request that they be searched through the latent and single fingerprint files of the FBI."

We would assume that by now the police would have stressed to the Chronicle the importance of any inbound mail to the editor be checked for "please rush to editor" particularly with the handwriting of previous letters mailed by the killer. He had murdered three people prior to October 11th and had written three letters to the Chronicle, Examiner and Herald, so I would have expected the editors of these three newspapers to have received exemplars of Zodiac's handwriting, that in the event of them receiving any envelopes addressed "please rush to editor" in similar handwriting, to not open them, or at the very least not to touch the letter. Even so, elimination prints could be taken.
Since these sheets of paper were manufactured and supposedly devoid of prints on the inner sheets, would it not be reasonable to assume any fingerprints found on the letter surface to be the author of said letter, unless we employ the devious scheming Zodiac mind, and claim he got a third person to unwittingly touch the paper before he wrote on it.
The fact they requested a search through fingerprint files would indicate they had enough points on the fingerprint to enact such a search. A few markers was not enough to identify a subject in the files. They usually required at least 12. But clearly they had enough to compare it to the '10 finger and thumb impressions' of known suspects in the case from this point on, and thereby eliminate the commonly touted suspects.
But of course, these latent fingerprints from the October 13th letter will be swatted away as Zodiac being clever and framing other people. It's possible they weren't his, but whose were they?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 07:03:36 am

Interesting observations,Richard.

All I can really say,on the matter is,that I would be confident that the Zodiac had a significant scar,on the palm side,of his right index finger.

Of course,I don't actually ''know'' this to be the case,but it is just an indication that,I have confidence that LE,''do'' have the Zodiac's prints.

Pushing the boundaries of credulity [?]....just love the poster,who offered up ''a speedboat'' waiting in the bay,as Zodiac's means of escape,after Stine's execution....with the obvious consideration of July,Aug,Sept,Oct = 007.

Ten out of ten,for entertainment [?].

Ray
10/13/2018 08:39:01 am

Something that's not always easy to keep in mind is the police and personnel on the scene were treating the case as a simple robbery gone bad - nothing to do with the Zodiac.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 10:57:27 am

So true,Ray...and it is to Toschi and the SFPD's credit,that they appeared to carry out a professional and sound initial investigation,of what was thought to be,yet another murder city taxi driver,where robbery,might have been the prime motive.

From what I have read,in the past,at least 200 people gathered quite quickly,in curiosity of the commotion going on,And,a tail back of vehicles,down Washington St.,with no way of extricating themselves,until the SFPD and other emergency services,had conducted their business.

From a Saturday night,it wouldn't be until the following Tuesday,before it started to become apparent,that the Zodiac might have been responsible.

Judith
10/13/2018 10:58:24 am

So therein lies the problem. Any fingerprints or DNA obtained from evidence will have to be cross-referenced with those who are innocent people, who work at newspapers, people who work at police stations, postal workers, unintentional and third parties, even worse. This is why you're not going to get any immediate result on your DNA profile.
My guess is there will be several profiles of obtained. All of which will have to be genetically researched cross-referenced and then eliminated one at a time.
50 years now has passed. How would you even begin to know who all these people were, who contaminated these crime scenes and these letters?
Having said that recent reports indicate if you are a white American you will be cross-referenced through genetic websites. They can now find anyone. From there a group of men will be determined and then eliminated by things like Geographic profiling.
It's coming. And that still will leave plenty of room for conjecture.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 11:39:53 am

We all come at this,from different angles,Judith.

I try not to be too downhearted,and save my ''jaundice'',if possible,for the subterfuge,lies and procrastination of police and judiciary politics,spilling over in the form of answers,to politicians' ''innocent'' questions.

I would welcome Det.Poyser,to enter the arena of the Zodiac forums,and answer a few basic questions.Of course,it is not going to happen....just as sure as Det.Poyser's imminent retirement.....and the unnecessary requirement for him ever having to answer a meaningful question,again.

Unless there is a ''Public Enquiry'',in the future.But then,why would there be a need,for that....I ask rhetorically.

Everything is all stitched up,nice and tidy,as is the judiciary's want,when necessary.And it is they,the judiciary,who will always hold the ''Ace cards''.

Only to,on occasion,roll out the red carpet,and produce their best China tea service,whenever a human rights lawyer decides to pay them a visit.

Then,its just back to the ''normal business'',of having the public serve ''their'' needs.

Judith
10/13/2018 12:28:31 pm

As my very elderly grandmother once said to me, "These police need these criminals".
Indeed it is how they make their living isn't it? Off of other people's taxes.
I do feel that there is enough motivation still to solve the Zodiac Killer mystery and to take the credit for having done so.

As long as Zodiac maintains itself in the public Realm,we want to know who this person was or is.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 12:40:32 pm

...in short,I believe that the judiciary have ''most' of what they need,to bring this man,to justice.

Now,''most'' being the operative word.More a case of do they,the judiciary,believe that they can construct a prosecution case,that they are confident of winning,and hopefully force the Zodiac,to throw in the towel,on a plea deal,for all his crimes.

Others are welcome to their opinion....but,while the judiciary ''twiddle their thumbs'',Rome burns.

Richard
10/13/2018 01:12:05 pm

I have a thought on the 'Debut of Zodiac' letter and the fact that no envelope is ever shown with this letter - because there never was one, and the Zodiac hand delivered it to the Hearst Building of the San Francisco Examiner Offices. He must have read the Sunday August 3rd 1969 San Francisco Examiner article (with Police Chief Jack E Stiltz urging him to send more details to prove he was the killer) either on Sunday or early Monday morning. The killer was certainly eager to respond, but knew that mailing a letter would not make next days papers. If he lived in Vallejo and worked in San Francisco that isn't a stumbling block. He can hand deliver it in the morning when he goes to work.
For 35 years starting in 1965, the San Francisco Chronicle and Examiner operated under a Joint Operating Agreement whereby the Chronicle published a morning paper and the Examiner published in the afternoon. The Examiner published the Sunday paper's news sections and glossy magazine. This is why he chose the Examiner, because he knew that if he hand delivered it in the early morning hours it has a chance of publication by the afternoon.
The FBI files stated "Enclosed herewith are the following documents: Original undated three page letter beginning "Dear Editor this is the Zodiac speaking" ending with "did not get front page coverage".
This letter was sent anonymously to the San Francisco Examiner, received, and turned over to the Vallejo Police Department 8/4/69."
The three July 31st letters are mentioned in the same document alongside their envelopes. Even though this letter was received on August 4th and turned immediately over to the Vallejo Police Department, no envelope was mentioned from day one. If an envelope had accompanied this letter and was tossed in the bin upon opening, as soon as the letter was read the envelope could easily have been retrieved. The reason there was no envelope, is because it was hand delivered directly to the San Francisco Examiner offices.
If you take a look at the final page of the three, he finishes with NO ADDRESS. The page measured 10.5 inches long, http://www.zodiackiller.com/ZLetter3.html
so he needed to fold it to hold the three pages together. Where exactly he delivered it to, at or in the offices cannot be ascertained. Was there an outside letter box to the building or did he slip it under a door, or leave it inside the building somehow?
But if we fold the three 10.5 inch pages twice evenly, we get just over 2.5 inches in height. Done in such a fashion would show the bottom section of page 3 from about 8 inches upwards. The only part showing would be NO ADDRESS and the Zodiac sign, All he had to do was place page 3 at the top, and fold in the middle twice. The NO ADDRESS section would now be where he normally placed the address of the newspaper. He didn't need to address it to the newspaper or editor anymore, because the Zodiac symbol said it all, especially because it could now be read without opening. The Zodiac really wanted it published that afternoon, and knowing that by mailing it in a normal mailbox wasn't going to achieve this, so delivered it directly to the Examiner, hence no envelope ever being detailed on the day of delivery, as shown in the FBI files dated 8/4/69 when it was forwarded to VPD.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 02:03:27 pm

Absolutely fascinating,Richard,and really most persuading.....that there never was a third envelope.

I wonder what made this ''first wave'' of Zodiac correspondence,the subject of,presumed ''information leak'' or ''mislead'',to the public,in the wake of the GSK arrest [?].

Naturally,it is mostly we,the Zodiac enthusiasts,that cast a discerning eye.But perhaps,a guessed ''solid enough'' mislead,to the public in general....with,even the Sacramento Bee,seeming ''half asleep'' over the story,if any newspaper,that took a real interest,in the VPD's announcement.

Now,they don't really have to entertain us,on this matter...but,it has occurred to me.....what of the bereaved ?

Whatever the real reason,behind that VPD announcement,their obligations,must surely be as acute as ever,to families and loved ones,of the victims [?].

I wonder if any of your readers,know a Bay Area related bereaved person [?],and might be able to inform us,how their relationship,sits with LE,at present [?].

Richard
10/13/2018 02:09:19 pm

Fourth envelope Rubislaw. No August 4th 1969 envelope has been seen.

Ray
10/13/2018 08:36:58 pm

I'm not sure Vallejo PD intended to make an announcement. My sense is a Sac Bee reporter asked a VPD detective if there was any new Zodiac testing underway, on the heels of the GSK arrest - and the detective answered honestly, that envelopes were re-submitted for testing last year.

Nobody
10/13/2018 09:16:13 pm

Yes Ray, you are correct! From the newspaper reports it is clear that GSK had nothing to do with the decision to re-submit Zodiac evidence. Vallejo PD stated in one media report that they sent the evidence as a matter of routine. The technology surrounding DNA is improving all the time, so they re-submit material every few years in the hopes that more evidence will be uncovered.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 01:01:31 am

I would have to disagree with you there,Ray.

This business of subterfuge,with the judiciary,and senior police,as their pawns and mouthpieces,is always about ''timing'',and drawing the ''sucker'' in first.....in this particular instance,the Sacramento Bee,being the sucker....and the VPD,the mouthpiece.

Then it is a case of ''delivering the lie'',at the right moment.If,there is any head scratching,for the first victim,of that lie,at a later date,the lie's impact as dissipated,anyway.....and,any public interest,at that precise time,is on the wain,anyway.

I was ''wet behind the ears'' on this strategy employed,at one time...just as those,who have had no personal experience,will merely be looking,at ''claimed facts'',at the time.

This is simply ''par for the course'' behaviour,for LE...and will always see it,as ''protection of the truth'',in the interests of justice,at a future date.

But,there is a side of ''insidious'' and erosion of moral standards,to it.

As a soon to be retired,Detective,once said :

''Hell,we even lie to the fish in the sea.''.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/13/2018 02:33:28 pm

I see now - thanks.

From a purist's point of view,it doesn't seem to be the first time,that Zodiac adopted,perhaps odd thoughts,in his post and ''packing'' habits.

He certainly appears to have often bear the receiver in mind.In addition,those were the days when,there were at least two deliveries,a day.

And,often more than two.

Nobody
10/13/2018 03:57:08 pm

Oh well, you tried Richard. LE do indeed have prints that they are reasonably certain came from the Zodiac's grubby paws. They were certain enough to rule out ALA, Grant, and no doubt many others. Their certainty tends to imply that the prints were taken fresh from crime scenes and have to some extent been cross matched from at least two crime scenes or from the material evidence.

Perhaps the only cause for doubting the fingerprint evidence is this: Many years later it was rumored that prosecutors were setting wheels in motion to place ALA before a jury based on circumstantial evidence alone. The trial never took place because ALA died. In many ways it was perhaps for the best that the trial did not happen, because I am certain it would have been a media circus and ALA would have been exonerated on the basis of a lack of consistent and credible evidence.

Of course people will always call the fingerprints and DNA into question if they do not match with the prints of their pet suspect. We see this happen time and time again with this case.

As Richard suggests it seems entirely implausible that the police would allow upwards of 200 people to swarm about and contaminate the crime scene before ambulance officers had a chance to check on the victim and forensics had a chance to check for prints and other evidence. The crime occurred in San Francisco not Rhodesia.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 03:33:36 am

Hi Richard

This subject of Poyser and the VPD,on a basis of ''He said,she said'',keeps coming up,again and again.

We are now,nearly eight months on,with ''diddly squat'' further information,on the horizon.

The Sacramento Bee.....conspirators or suckers ?

So,I'll take time out,and chase them up,over it.Maybe drop the names ''Lyndon Lafferty'' and ''George W Bush'',into the mix,to make it sound interesting,and try hard not to employ barbed inferences.

But,the last time I insulted a newspaper man,he was back to me,in a ''Jiffy''.So,who knows ?

I will let your readers know,how this pans out.

Time for certain agencies,to get a little less sleep [?].

Richard
10/14/2018 04:55:58 am

It seems like a rerun of 2002, hopes being eventually reduced until eventually quashed. It is a time consuming affair even when a potential familial 'family tree' is identified, and does require extensive investigation. Then we have the possibility that any likely suspects generated could be deceased, and surreptitiously getting the DNA direct from a suspect now not available, I suspect would require exhumations to conclusively identity the true identify the Zodiac Killer But the length of time that has now passed, assuming the 'Mysteries at the Museum' narrator was less than accurate with the facts, is getting to the point of little optimism. I sincerely doubt there is much hope of ever seeing a resolution to this case.

Richard
10/14/2018 05:11:52 am

Back in 2002 we had similar promises "We have something we haven't had to this point, a partial DNA fingerprint, " said Carroll. "It is not enough at this time to submit" to DNA databases of known criminals, he said, but other new evidence that is still being analyzed, "may yield more useable DNA" within weeks or months."

In 2007 Mercury News "Devotees from around the world fill the Web with theories, while the advent of DNA testing and popular crime-solving television shows has reignited interest in the case. Debates rage over likely suspects. A DNA test in 2002 seemed to clear a suspect – petty criminal Arthur Leigh Allen of Vallejo – favored by author Graysmith and key investigators. Allen died in 1992; the test was done on saliva gathered from a stamp on one of the Zodiac’s letters."

Richard
10/14/2018 05:30:04 am

I remember the sections cut from the stamps and envelopes. Why would the forensic personnel cut the letters apart, if as claimed today, they just swabbed the outside of the stamps and envelopes for DNA.
I am not trained in criminal DNA forensics, but we both know Rubislaw that these letters were handed by sorters and mail carriers, not to mention the likely contamination from other sources down the years. The July 31st letters were belatedly discovered in an investigators home, so would have been totally compromised as evidence from the outside of the stamps and envelopes. I, nor you, would ever consider swabbing the exterior of these surfaces, to then rule out Arthur Leigh Allen, Kjell Qvale, or anybody else for that matter. Why would a trained and qualified professional like Cydne Holt be party to such a sham, had this been the case. In the 2002 documentary she claimed a partial DNA profile of four points, subsequently used to rule out Allen etc. But how after 33 years was just one single profile lifted from the outside of the stamps or envelopes. The idea that this exposed area yielded just one DNA profile and not more beggars belief. Even the idea of one profile being discovered tends to promote the idea the sample was obtained from a sealed section of the stamp or envelope.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 04:58:11 am

Just to backtrack :

Sacramento Bee,May 2nd 2018 :

'' Detective Poyser said the envelopes had been sent to the Lab. a few months ago.....''

Vallejo Police Department statement,May 8th 2018 :

'' Currently,we are not close to identifying a suspect,nor do we anticipate developing that information,at any time in the near future.''

Who drew the short straw ?

a] The Vallejo Police Department

b] None of the Bay Area Police Forces,except the Vallejo Police Department.

Richard
10/14/2018 06:31:22 am

Look at this section of video https://youtu.be/uzXy2JbI_iM?t=1481

The envelope flap has been cut. The Stine letter stamp has been peeled off the envelope and a reddish brown hair discovered on the sticky side. HERE is the underside of a stamp, that can DEFINITELY be tested for DNA on the sealed portion. So why today are people claiming that only the exterior of the letters and stamps were tested. This letter was certainly sent by the killer and therefore the stamp affixed by him. Why then, when you have this stamp available, then and now, are the July 31st letters the focus.

Ray
10/14/2018 07:38:41 am

My guess is Poyser answered the Sac Bee question honestly, that yes new testing is underway - and VPD became so inundated with media requests that the mayor (a former VPD homicide detective) had to issue the second statement to diffuse matters.

That said, I believe the 'few months ago' was the fall of 2017 - which would mean it's been a year since the envelopes were re-submitted.

Richard
10/14/2018 05:58:56 am

Tom Voigt wrote this on his forum entitled 'There is no Zodiac DNA profile -- and there never was'.
"During the show Holt never said the DNA was from UNDER the stamp, and that's the truth here."

Watch here https://youtu.be/uzXy2JbI_iM?t=3647



Richard
10/14/2018 06:16:33 am

No DNA was found in this particular section, so Tom is correct, but it shows the process of not only cutting sections of the stamps and envelopes and her statement of "I would then try to recover the DNA from the cells that may have been deposited on the letter where someone had licked it." The process of cutting the letters, and then using a centrifuge to separate the cells from the sticky adhesive, shows that these sections were analyzed, and the importance of using this process to find a single DNA hit. To then exclude suspects using the outside sampling of the letters seems incompatible with everything she has displayed in this section of video, and must have been known as junk science in eliminating people.

Ray
10/14/2018 07:44:54 am

If they did recover any sort of profile(s) from the outside of the envelopes, why not run them through Gedmatch?

It's free, and there'd be nothing to lose.

BB
10/14/2018 11:24:46 am

Richard
https://youtu.be/uzXy2JbI_iM?t=1481
In this Don Fouke says he saw a guy go into a house there by the Stine scene. I'm confused - is that guy Kjell Qvale? If not Who?

Richard
10/14/2018 01:02:32 pm

I don't believe he saw anybody go into a house- that is not what his 1969 memorandum stated. He did claim in one documentary he saw the killer enter a house at 3636 Jackson (Qvale's house). But he also stated 3712 Jackson St in the 2007 documentary. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on these ever changing stories.

Richard
10/14/2018 01:29:35 pm

Here is everything you need to know BB
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/let-the-inspectors-follow-through

Nobody
10/14/2018 04:44:48 pm

Fouke changed his story every time he changed his underwear.

Nobody
10/14/2018 05:50:34 pm

Officer Eric A Zelms was of course tragically shot and killed Thursday, January 1, 1970 while investigating a burglary on foot.

According to Sandy Betts in 2016, "Eric Zelms widow has said that Eric told her they did talk to the man they now believe was the Zodiac, but only briefly."

Should it be unusual, I can find no source for this often repeated claim that the two officers spoke to the man. Is this just "re-invented" speculation based on the Zodiac's claim that he spoke to the two men?

It would be so wonderful to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Nobody
10/14/2018 05:55:09 pm

Ah-ha! Yet another myth busted!!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5TnJlp9Io-I/VUaIV19jNwI/AAAAAAAADJU/H7E8dQLvPb0/s1600/FOUKE_memorandum.jpg

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 06:35:43 am

The whole recent ''episode'' is astonishing,Richard.And,as you say :

''The claims people are making these days,make no sense.''

I would go,as far as saying that,''that'' intimate visit,that Mr.Voigt paid to the Vallejo Police's storeroom,at their invitation...was an LE ruse,to let us all know that the VPD,were ''high profile'' in the current case,and held ''important'' document's pertaining to the case.

Just so that,the ''then'' VPD claim on envelopes and ''Private Lab'',would be accepted,without question.

This is really,close to a form of madness.What should be the case is,that the FBI hold all archive correspondence material....which is always available to the CA DOJ,on request.In addition,carry out any further forensic work,on that material,at the request of the CA DOJ.

Any archive correspondence material,is not supposed to be ''let loose'' and passed around,by Bay Area police forces.

And ''Miss Holt'' is just,and always appears to have been,full of her own self importance.I simply can't believe a word,she says.

Now,it may be the case that the CA DOJ desire that people in the Bay Area,should want to feel a ''closeness'' to,and respect for,their local forces,and that their local forces are still making great efforts,to crack the Zodiac case.

But,it's all actually ''pretend''.The real forensics work is out of Bay Area police's hands.

All this ''pretend'' work is only encouraging a ''Village mentality'' to exist.And ''unfair'' to the people of the San Francisco vicinity.

Pure and simple,because it is not the truth.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 11:04:35 am

Hey Richard and Ray...I think ''we'' are getting to the bottom of this,now.

But naturally,feel free to disagree.

Zodiac website manager,Tom Voigt,late September 2017 :

'' In early September 2017,at the request of Detective Terry Poyser of the VPD,I was invited within the department's walls,all the way to the evidence area.

I was allowed to copy some photos,police reports,and pages of Zodiac correspondence,none of which had been reproduced for the public,before.

Poyser is a sweet guy,and knows that a Zodiac nerd like me,might be able to spot something potentially significant.''

Now this is all too reminiscent of Lyndon Lafferty,and his invitations to the ''inner sanctums'' of both the VPD and Benicia Police.Where the ''really important stuff'' was kept.

In both cases,Lafferty walked out with ''souvenirs'',as if he was the cat that had got the cream,and considered that the desk sergeants may have later had their ''asses chewed'',for allowing him,to do this.

More particularly,he secured ''The Benicia High School Note'',and the ''1990 Celebrity Cipher'',and in his book,he states that it was suggested to him [...by a policeman ?...] that they were forensically linked.

And again,in recent times,the case of Mike Morford,and securing the 1988 New Canaan Letters,for which I am aware of a number of coincidences....and,have even offered,for him to contact me,on the basis of shared confidential information.

I think its looking likely that Mr.Voigt was used,to an extent,for good public relations....and a certain ''softening up'',before Poyser delivers the ''two envelopes and a private lab.'' speech,to the press.

Law Enforcement,have ''ways and means''.

BB
10/14/2018 12:14:49 pm

Rubislaw 32


BTK, Manson, Arthur John Shawcross etc. - These creeps had kids of there own. Did Zodiac?

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 01:02:12 pm

I believe that Zodiac did have children,BB.

But,that would be a personal opinion.

I make no secret of my belief,also,that Vallejo,for Zodiac,during his campaign of terror,was a ''work base'' home.

In addition,that his ''first home'',at that time,was somewhere in greater L.A.

But,it could have been closer to the San Francisco vicinity,such as Bakersfield....which would have knocked off an hour,on regular commuting journeys [?].

But,a personal opinion,BB.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/14/2018 01:31:36 pm

Recently,when I posted at Zodiac forums site,I wrote :

''Are we really to believe the word of an understaffed and underfunded SFPD Laboratory,over the word of Quantico - one of the world's finest crime fighting facilities.''

While posting this,I received the rudeness of a ''humbug symbol'',that came from a ''Proboards'' worker.

Just because I stated,the above,doesn't necessarily make it,the case.

But,I would suggest that it's time that some individuals,stop an apparent habit,of attempting their best Ostrich impersonation,look around,and broaden their views on perception of this ''Zodiac case''.

We do,after all,want it solved.....regardless of how ''LE'',are want to behave,sometimes.

Nobody
10/14/2018 04:40:20 pm

Oh wow, the conspiracy mills have once again been a-churning! The cops have once again been portrayed as the clumsy and incompetent, stereotypical, keystone variety, all with a permanent stain of egg on their faces. In all honesty the Vallejo PD probably never reads these blog pages. So let's all go write letters to annoy various officials. I really don't see that it matters under what circumstances the evidence got sent from Point A to Point B, perhaps we should just be grateful that it did. So yeah, I would tend to add another humbug at this point, and include a big "BAH" at the front of it. Jetting out a few lines of hot ink about Vallejo PD will achieve what exactly, apart from making the arrogant and self-righteous sleuths in Amateurville look stupid(er)?

Judith
10/14/2018 06:43:05 pm

I have gleaned this information from Tom Voigt's site over the recent months. He announced that DNA profiles can be obtained from hair now. When someone asked if they hair was being tested, he stated "luckily we won't need the hair after all." Tom has intimated that results are imminent and could come any day now. He has stated this mystery will be solved. My guess is they're going to have to rely upon Touch DNA. Peter's mother kept a little round dish with a little round sponge with water on her phone desk. You swiped the envelopes and the stamps on to the sponge to seal them, no need to lick. The issue with the hair would still need to match another piece of evidence, with the same DNA, otherwise you can't prove whose hair that is, under the stamp.
We all just want to know who the Zodiac Killer is. Have a little more faith in Vallejo PD. They will not show us their cards for a wide variety of reasons.
Not only did Peter and I have three children of Our Own. I believe he may have killed children as well. Read my book "Tit Willow" by Judith Chapman available on Amazon.

Ray
10/14/2018 07:06:27 pm

If you pulled enough DNA off the hair to get a profile, you wouldn't need to match any other evidence initially. Just run the profile through Gedmatch and see what comes up.

That said, the forensic technology to pull DNA from a rootless hair is still in the infant stages. I researched it a bit after Tom made that comment - far from a slam dunk.

Nobody
10/14/2018 10:08:54 pm

Yes Judith, I can understand the impatience and frustration, but really, some people think the police should be at their constant beck and call.

I have known people who have submitted evidence of a crime to LE and then become extremely annoyed because the police have not kept them updated. There are obvious reasons why LE do not keep everybody in the loop or give daily updates to the press on every aspect of their investigations. They would not have the time for one thing. The other thing, they would be always correcting themselves.

Investigations regularly hit dead ends and new lines of inquiry are followed. Cold cases often have many dead ends or incomplete evidence. It is a process. Like it or not, the eventual release of information to the public is just one cog at the end of a very long machine.

Judith
10/15/2018 07:12:40 am

So at some point in my life I had to believe that God sees everything that everyone does all the time. To rely upon Man to bring Justice is dubious at best. But these evil people do not get away with what they do. There will be a reckoning. Not everyone will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
With regards to Tom Voigt, I just don't believe that he is a liar. I believe he has been misguided and misdirected at times with regards to suspects, but I have read between the lines on his recent posts and he is indicating that DNA profiles have been drawn that progress is being made.
Having said that, God bless his soul, he is now selling seats to the 50th anniversary of the Lake Herman Road murders. I'm guessing what? at the crime scene? wow

Ray
10/15/2018 10:20:24 am

I haven't seen Tom indicate that a DNA profile has been drawn.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 07:49:03 am

Yes,Judith,I agree that we should not be hasty in accusing Mr.Voigt,of being a liar.

He is not that,and if anyone of us,were to be called up by Detective Poyser,and specially invited to the VPD's inner sanctum,of ''really important stuff'',who is to say that they would turn down,such an offer [?].

If one reads more about,Mr.Voigt's visit,he has a lot of nice things to say about ''Terry'',and particularly enjoyed joining in with Poyser,putting on rubber gloves,together,and sorting through some correspondence documents.

But,one has to wonder,to a degree [?],why Voigt didn't speak up,when,six months later,this whole business of ''two envelopes and a private lab'' transcended.

Instead,Voigt became one of the vanguard supporters of,this ''there never was any DNA'' claim.

So,the concept of '' Sycophancy '',and ,in relation to Poyser,by Voigt,may have affected Voigt's judgement,and honesty,at the time,of the ''two envelopes and a private lab'' announcement.

Mr.Voigt's Zodiac website,has itself,been criticised for sycophancy,over the years.But indeed,I believe it fair to say that Mr.Voigt is not a liar.

Somebody
10/15/2018 01:25:20 pm

"putting on rubber gloves" Really? Check those vids again. I wasn't the only one to be surprised that Tom was permitted to delve in to, and hold sundry privileged public-to-police correspondence WITHOUT putting on gloves.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 01:38:58 pm

I wouldn't know,nor care....''Noddy''

What is the next name change,...''Big Ears'' ?

YapYapYap
10/15/2018 04:07:30 pm

"If one reads more about,Mr.Voigt's visit,he has a lot of nice things to say about 'Terry'',and particularly enjoyed joining in with Poyser,putting on rubber gloves,together,and sorting through some correspondence documents."

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 04:29:06 pm

Clearly views held by the ''Tom is God'' sycophants society.

Perhaps,for a moment,you could leave your hero out of this [?]

And,focus on the real point....that the Vallejo Police,as a public service,has behaved in a manner,unbecoming of their obligations,to that public service.

Queen Victoria
10/15/2018 04:40:56 pm

"And,focus on the real point....that the Vallejo Police,as a public service,has behaved in a manner,unbecoming of their obligations,to that public service."

Clearly "one" is not amused. Heads MUST roll!

Yadayadayada
10/15/2018 04:35:26 pm

Tom Voigt may not have lied outright, but he has disappointed us before.

I still recall the "Taped Confession" that never was.

He did not lie - yes there really was a tape. But a "confession"? Hardly, by any stretch of the imagination.

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 04:46:37 pm

Indeed,these views have all some pertinence,one could argue [?].

Perhaps the video showing only Poyser wearing gloves,was because he had just given ''Tom'',an obligatory ''frisk and search'' [?].

If you know what I mean [?].

Somebody
10/15/2018 05:39:40 pm

"And,focus on the real point....that the Vallejo Police,as a public service,has behaved in a manner,unbecoming of their obligations,to that public service."

Rubislaw, I completely agree with you on this point!

As but one "Concerned Citizen," I could contain my frustration no longer and recently let them know: "Respectfully, Chief Andrew Bidou and VPD cold case staff: I ask, why is citizen, Tom Voigt favored for the inside scoop on a VPD cold case? For far too long, he has been permitted to bait and profit from his website visitors with promises of “exclusive” news and developments from one or more of his VPD “inside” sources. Is Det. Poyser aware of this? Internal Affairs? Tom Voigt is NOT our public representative for any forensic case and deserves no greater consideration than the rest of us—citizens, taxpayers and amateur investigators, equally. Please consider correcting this situation. A simple Web page press release on the VPD site would be sufficient to fairly inform citizens re updates on any cold case. Thank you, sincerely."

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 06:03:25 pm

Good points ''somebody'',and I hope to bring up some of these points,with the Sacramento Bee.

All things considered,it is looking like the VPD have behaved badly,and,even if they were obeying instructions,from the CA DOJ,it shouldn't be considered mitigation.

I do think that once the Zodiac case,is ''done and dusted'',the CA DOJ,should consider assisting the SFPD Lab,to become something that the whole vicinity of San Francisco can be proud of....and they,the CA DOJ wouldn't feel the necessity to use Quantico,all the time....and then we wouldn't have to witness the sort of ''cringe worthy'' subterfuge behaviour,from the likes of the VPD.

Somebody
10/15/2018 05:57:18 pm

P.S. Rubislaw, I believe you misinterpreted my earlier post . . . I was suggesting there was a breakdown in police protocol, even abject negligence–as I believe you agree–in permitting a citizen (1) to see privileged correspondence to police from other citizens per crime tips, no matter how many decades past; and (2) for that citizen to stick his bare mitts in that (potential) public evidence. :-)

Rubislaw 32 link
10/15/2018 06:12:45 pm

Yes,somebody,I agree with that also.

I suppose we can't really blame Mr.Voigt for accepting the invitation.

It's just that a situation should never have arise where,the VPD saw it as an advantageous public relations exercise,in order to possibly add credence,to ''selling'' a lie,in the future.

Which,of course,it seems that they,the VPD,subsequently did ''sell'' a lie.

Yadayadayada
10/15/2018 06:03:16 pm

I think we can all agree on those points, Somebody. It is like in social mythology, Graysmith got to hand over the privilege to Voigt. But nobody ever recalls the official inauguration ceremony. :)

Nobody
10/15/2018 06:27:59 pm

Voigt is not entirely to "blame" for the renewed interest by Vallejo PD.

There are other recent events afoot Dear Watson!

Hint: Take a peek over at what's been happening in the notorious Santa Cruz Mountains.


Comments are closed.
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture

    All
    13 Hole Postcard
    148 Character Cipher
    1978 Letter
    1986 Letter
    1987 Letter
    2001 Happy New Year Card
    Albany Letter
    Allan/Peyton Murders
    Arthur Leigh Allen
    Atlanta Letter
    Betsy Aardsma
    Blue Rock Springs Attack
    Bus Bomb Letter
    Button Letter
    Call To Chat Show
    Carol Beth Hilburn
    Channel 9 Letter
    Cheri Jo Bates
    Cipher Theories
    Citizen Card
    Concerned Citizen Card
    Confession Letter
    Daniel Williams Poisoning
    Debut Of Zodiac Letter
    Deep Real Estate Ad
    DMV Letter
    Domingos/Edwards Murders
    Donald Lee Bujok
    Donna Lass
    Dragon Card
    Earl Van Best Jr
    Eureka Card
    Exorcist Letter
    Fairfield Letter
    Fingerprint Evidence
    Forecast For Cancer
    Forecast For Leo
    Gareth Penn
    General News Articles
    Gilbert And Sullivan
    Good Citizen Letter
    Halloween Card
    Hood/Garcia Murders
    Internet Articles
    Joan Webster
    Judith Hakari
    Kevin Robert Brooks
    Lake Berryessa Attack
    Lake Herman Road Murders
    Lake Tahoe Disappearance
    Larry Kane
    Leona Roberts Murder
    Los Angeles Letter
    Melvin Belli Letter
    Mike Morford (Morf13)
    Modesto Attack
    Molina/Rodriguez Murders
    Monticello Card
    My Name Is Letter
    Nancy Bennallack
    New Canaan Letters
    Novato Letter
    Oakland A's Letter
    Pines Card
    Possible Zodiac Attacks
    Possible Zodiac Letters
    Presidio Heights Murder
    Radians
    Red Phantom Letter
    Richard Gaikowski
    Riverside Desktop Poem
    Robert Salem Murder
    Ross Sullivan
    Saechao/Saelee Murders
    San Jose Code Letter
    Santa Claus Card
    Scotch Tape Letter
    Sla Letter
    Tamalpais Valley Attack
    Ted Kaczynski
    Telegraph Avenue Incident
    The 340 Cipher
    The 408 Cipher
    The Celebrity Cypher
    The Little List
    The Mikado
    Thomas Horan
    You Are Next Letter
    Zodiac Letters Poll
    Zodiac Postage
    Zodiac Theories

    Picture

    RSS Feed

    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    The Zodiac Killer may have given us the answer almost word-for-word when he wrote PS. The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians. The code solution identified was Estimate: Four Radians and Five Inches To read more, click the image.
    Picture
    Picture
    The Zodiac Atlas: The Zodiac Killer Enigma by Randall Scott Clemons. Click image for details.
    Picture
    The Zodiac Killer Map: Part of the Zodiac Killer Enigma by Randall Scott Clemons. Click image for color version
    For black and white issue..
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture
    Picture

    Archives

    January 2023
    December 2022
    November 2022
    October 2022
    September 2022
    August 2022
    July 2022
    June 2022
    May 2022
    April 2022
    March 2022
    January 2022
    December 2021
    November 2021
    October 2021
    September 2021
    August 2021
    July 2021
    June 2021
    May 2021
    April 2021
    March 2021
    February 2021
    January 2021
    December 2020
    November 2020
    October 2020
    September 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    June 2020
    May 2020
    April 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    March 2019
    February 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    November 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    July 2018
    June 2018
    May 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    September 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    April 2017
    March 2017
    February 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    October 2016
    September 2016
    August 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    May 2016
    April 2016
    March 2016
    February 2016
    January 2016
    December 2015
    November 2015
    August 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    December 2014
    November 2014
    October 2014
    September 2014
    August 2014
    July 2014
    June 2014
    May 2014
    April 2014
    March 2014
    February 2014
    January 2014
    December 2013
    November 2013
    October 2013
    September 2013
    August 2013
    July 2013
    June 2013
    May 2013
    April 2013
    February 2013
    January 2013
    December 2012
    November 2012
    October 2012
    September 2012
    July 2012
    January 2012

Picture
Picture
Picture
Picture
Picture
Picture
Picture
Photos used under Creative Commons from Marcin Wichary, zAppledot, vyusseem, Alex Barth, Alan Cleaver, jocelynsart, Richard Perry, taberandrew, eschipul, MrJamesAckerley