"YOU ARE TOO BEAUTIFUL TO LIVE"

2/11/2025

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Murder victim Doreen Gaul (19) lived at 570 Myrtle Avenue in Albany, New York, before relocating to 1032 South Bonnie Brae Street in Los Angeles, California. Her former address on Myrtle Avenue was only 500 meters from the Albany Medical Center, that would become the target of the Zodiac Killer on August 1st 1973, when he mailed another malicious communication.

She was brutally murdered alongside James Sharp (15), their bodies found viciously stabbed and beaten in an alleyway between Arapahoe Street and Magnolia Avenue in Los Angeles on November 21st 1969. Coinciding with her death, a typewritten note was found in her residence stating "SO YOU THINK YOU CAN FOOL THE OLD KILLER HA HA. I KNOW ALL YOUR MOVEMENTS AND THE TIME THEY ARE MADE. TIME IS SHORT, ENJOY LIFE WHILE YOU CAN. YOU ARE TO BEAUTIFUL TO LIVE AND I MUST KILL YOU. THE ZODIAC KILLER". The phrase "you are too beautiful to live" from this typed communication stood out.

Like so many of the Zodiac Killer phrases such as "man is the most dangerous animal of all" from 1932 and possibly "it was about time for her to die" from 1888, he wasn't averse to sourcing distant newspaper archives to generate impact in his letters. As his July 31st 1969, March 13th 1971, January 29th 1974, April 24th 1978 and May 2nd 1978 letters proved, he was quite prepared to use the movie industry as a source for inspiration. So, if the Zodiac Killer was responsible for this letter to Doreen Gaul, I decided to source newspaper archives regarding Hollywood and Los Angeles, famous for its movie industry, because this is where Doreen Gaul lived at the time of her murder. Again, I didn't have to look far.

Born Reatha Dale Watson (born July 28th 1896), Hollywood beauty Barbara La Marr, an American film actress and screewriter who appeared in twenty-seven films between 1920 and 1926, was at 17 years of age once branded by a judge in 1914 as "you are too beautiful to live in a large city", who banished her to her home in El Centro, Los Angeles. Over the next several years, La Marr acted frequently in films, and became known to the public as "The Girl Who Is Too Beautiful", after Adela Rogers St. Johns, a Hearst newspaper feature writer noticed the judge's comments. A book by Sherri Snyder was later released entitled "Barbara La Marr: The Girl Who Was Too Beautiful for Hollywood".

Barbara La Marr and Doreen Gaul

Had the Zodiac Killer (or another) likened Los Angeles resident Doreen Gaul to Hollywood actress Barbara La Marr, and taken (or remembered) this quote from yesteryear to compose his communication. Not only can Doreen Gaul be closely linked to two potential Zodiac Killer communications in Albany and Los Angeles, but the phrase "you are too beautiful to live" can now be linked to two Los Angeles women, one of whom was heavily connected to the movie industry, that the Zodiac Killer so often referenced.

So was this phrase another purposeful addition by the Bay Area murderer? An "old killer" who delved into the newspaper archives once again.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/11/2025 11:47:12 am

Interesting take Sir Richard. I could be convinced of it, due to the connection of media attention as a requirement of a Narcissist. It's also a nice indicator of the "TimeSpan" as a reference to a much earlier time possibly held in regard by the killer.

I might be interested to hear more.

Richard link

2/11/2025 12:28:05 pm

It may be relevant to a mature Zodiac with a good knowledge of the movies, or a local resident who is very familiar with Los Angeles. Or maybe not. The newspapers described that James Sharp was found fully clothed apart from his shoes, whereas Doreen Gaul was found naked but for a coloured necklace described as "Indian beads" around her neck. I wondered whether the drawing on the letter could have been "indian bead-like" jewellery on a string. Possibly as a clue to Doreen Gaul's murder and the only thing left on her body. I can't think of any other reasonable explanation for the drawing Ed.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/12/2025 06:26:31 am

Sir Richard,

The description of how the internal machinations of how this fellow might think, as you describe it, I find very believable.

Over the many hours of my own research, I've come to believe (rightly or wrongly) that I may have developed an insight into how this person thinks. I thought I noticed a few motifs, which I won't go into here as they would take too long and I would most assuredly fall short of being able to describe them accurately .

But what you've highlighted here. What you may have essentially done, is solve a puzzle.

Meaning, this symbol of what appear to be beads, would have almost been impossible for someone else to pick up on, unless they were able to synthesize clews pertinent to the case, but only from one studious enough to connect all the pieces together .

That is to say, that I believe your method of deduction and coming to the conclusion that you did, makes damned good sense.

It reminds me so much of the seemingly Oriental characters that some have tried to "decipher" from what I believe was the letter referencing the Mikado.

I would believe, that those symbols, would be deciphered as to their meaning in a similar way. So the motif would be -- strange symbols, signature location of a letter -- connected to the murder and the identify of the murder.

Bravo to you sir.

Richard link

2/12/2025 10:52:07 am

To this day I still think Kevin Robert Brooks solution to the "oriental characters" is by far the best. The natural answer to the final paragraph on the Exorcist letter of "If I do not see this note in your paper, I will do something nasty, which you know I'm capable of doing", is he was capable of killing. The Zodiac's final paragraph asks the question to police "what do they think he is capable of"? Zodiac had the capability "To kill". In Kevin's solution the "To" is correctly capitalized because it begins the sentence.

The wording "If I do not see this note in your paper, I will do something nasty, which you know I'm capable of doing", is very reminiscent of his July 31st 1969 letters where he wrote "I want you to print this cipher on the front page of your paper. In this cipher is my idenity. If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry.". The threat was "to kill" here, so why not in the Exorcist letter?

If detectives had shown us this final paragraph on the Exorcist letter and hidden the "oriental characters" from us, our logical conclusion would have been that Zodiac was capable of killing. In other words, his capability was "To kill". So what are the chances that when detectives revealed to us the "oriental characters", they even had the capability of being arranged to spell the phrase "To kill". Not only was this phrase the logical answer to the last paragraph, it could be perfectly spelled by rearranging the characters on the page, but not altering them.

After "To kill" Kevin Robert Brooks solution has an exclamation mark. An exclamation mark is a grammatical sign used to express strong feelings, such as anger or joy, in a written text. It can also be used to indicate a forceful command or statement. The exclamation mark can indicate that the speaker is surprised or excited. So this is in keeping with the Zodiac Killer answering his own question of what he was capable of. The Zodiac Killer used exactly the same technique in his 340 letter on November 8th 1969 when he wrote "I could do my thing", followed by exclamation marks. His "thing" was "To kill". Click my name.

Richard

2/12/2025 11:17:39 am

Also the symbols identified by Kevin as "To" were connected together, unlike the other symbols. This probably meant that these conjoined characters were meant to be kept together (and began to phrase).

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/13/2025 05:03:02 am

Dearest Richard,

Many thanks as always. I've found his link on your platform and I intend to read it more fully in time.

My only reservation, is that his "solve" or his "transformation or algorithm process", for the orientation and reorientation of the characters are not clear as a reproducible series or function.

I'll have to read more as usual, but off top that didn't leap out at me.

I'm a believer in the repeatable order and process that many feel is such an important, nay necessary, part of the scientific process, and the logical method.

I may have simply not reached that part yet, so apologies if this is hasty and if Kevin does in fact explain his process in a more methodical manner.

I would be very interested in that.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/13/2025 06:01:46 am

Dearest Richard,

I've now come to realize who that person "Kevin" was.

I remember first coming across his work, and he was one of the "personalities" that I found very confusing around the case. This was before a time where I took any of this seriously and eyed many connected to this subject as charlatans or kooks.

One of the "Themes" around this case, and this "community" that I've noticed is kind of a sensitive subject and hard for me to articulate. But it touches on this "Charlatan" aspect of what I believe is a sort of undertone to a bit of a cottage industry.

There are several people, that have even been coined as a collective term as part of the "My daddy was the Zodiac" group. Then you have the drive of some, to have "Books" written about them, their work on the Zodiac case (Unofficial and not co-signed by authorities on the case). This is usually a means to an end to somehow segue into a tv show or movie type consulting contract. There are a spate of bad tv series that are in this vein. And finally, I think you have this category, that I might fit into. Those of the "podcasters" or "YouTubers".

You must forgive me, for as I mentioned previously, I'm a bit "different" than most in the community.

I've only taken to this subject and this undertaking, because of very strange and odd coincidences and what I can only say is an alignment of experiences in my life, that seemed to overlay with this case in general, and one suspect in particular.

That is to say, imagine a fish out of water story. I believe that's the term they use in Hollywood. Sort of the model for this kind of thing would be the twain work "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court"

I come to this community, not as some kind of desire to run towards any of the items listed above. I have always eyed this subject as something bizarre and not something for me. I believe this gives me a unique perspective. Almost a birds eye view. A term that might paradoxically apply to me is -- dispassionate.

This person "Kevin", harkens me back to a time, and a feeling that I had, when I viewed all of this askance. Of Charlatans, or worse, true believers that are confused and not serious people.

But I wish this person well and I am sorry to hear about the loss of his father. Which brings up another theme I've noticed about many in this community. But I'll leave that for another time.

Rubislaw32 link

2/13/2025 11:21:16 am

I should just like to make a point here, which I feel is worth making.

I don't happen to believe in the interpretation of the ''abstract'' of Kevin Brooks in the Exorcist letter. My take is entirely different. But, that doesn't mean that I don't think his approach is entirely genuine, and that he is one of the older internet generation who's ''aim was true''. Again, the hope is that an alive Zodiac will be arrested, and that he will clarify certain matters beyond his murders.

With respect to Mr Brooks, I found that he is the only person known to the Zodiac internet community who left a note of sympathy at the event of the funeral of Claudia Stine, who passed away December 4th 2024. He clearly cared.

Richard

2/13/2025 12:39:23 pm

I always accept that people will arrive at different "solutions" and interpretations to the various Zodiac puzzles. Kevin's solution, for me is likely the correct one, but of course, others will have a different take. I believe Kevin told me that he suffers from a sort of dyslexia which ironically gave him an advantage in spotting the hidden pattern of the Asian characters. The biggest thing for me with his solution is that it answers the final paragraph, whereas many other solutions are usually unattached to the rest of the letter, such as overlaying the symbols over part of a map. In other words, lacking uniformity with the message in the Exorcist letter. I suppose we all have to pick our favourite.

Rubislaw32 link

2/13/2025 01:12:05 pm

I certainly understand that, Richard, and just because I am ''pro'' my own interpretation, doesn't mean I'm not open-minded to alternatives.

In essence that the abstract is a birds eye view of Bay area waters, with a submarine being attended to by tug boats and auxiliary vessels. Even a pontoon (!), and reminders of the marine nature of it, with a spore and tadpole.

The Zodiac was playing out in his mind, what it would have been like if he was Dan Cooper, about to jump out of an aircraft, over the Bay area and on a clear day.

Because much of the influx of human traffic to San Francisco Airport consists of tourists, it is known and accepted practice for pilots to fly over the Bay before their final approach, to give the tourists something extra.

The opening verse in the letter is the Zodiac inferring what a fool Dan Cooper was. And the ''37'' refers to the official number of passengers who were subjected to Dan Cooper's hijacking.

The Zodiac was ''tongue-in-cheek'' exorcising himself for having become ''D B Cooper'' - the letter-writing impersonator of Dan Cooper the hijacker, whom the Zodiac clearly thought must have perished.

To each his own, and Kevin's is an interesting take.

Rubislaw32 link

2/13/2025 01:31:43 pm

''If I don't see the ad in ......... ......... on ........I'll know you are not interested.'',

D B Cooper FBI File 22, Pages 105 - 108.

Richard

2/13/2025 03:55:42 pm

Tantalizing quote Rubi, I must get round to looking at the D.B. Cooper letters - not because I think he was Zodiac - but because Zodiac liked poking his nose into other cases, such as Atlanta.

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 12:39:48 am

Back on topic, Richard, I've been through this case before - and really couldn't come up with an answer.

But, just to make the point, perhaps, that the two ''link symbols'' left in the letter are different looking. There are claims that Doreen and James were beaten with a chain prior to ''coup de grace'' death. So, maybe one denotes a bead necklace, and the other a chain, such as a bicycle chain ?

The letter might be from the Zodiac as a claim on further victims, ''pulling in'', so to speak, a Los Angeles connector. But, I tend to think it is hoaxed. Possibly by FBI counter-intelligence.

I would only suggest that CA DOJ have a pretty good idea if it was the FBI, or not.

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 02:23:29 am

All in a name ?

Albany Medical Center is situated on New Scotland Avenue, Albany.

Albany derives from Alba NY. Alba is Scottish Gaelic for ''Scotland''.

Alba derives from ''Albion'' - the Celtic for the land that became Great Britain.

Sir Francis Drake claimed the land that constitutes California, for his queen, Queen Elizabeth I. He named it ''New Albion'' - ''New Britain'', as it were.

Personally, when the Zodiac posted the August 1st 1973 letter & cryptogram from Albany NY, I believe he had just arrived back from a work-posting in France. ''But'' - he had been told his next work-posting would be to Scotland. After his ''Albany visit'', the Zodiac returned to his then-primary home in Los Angeles, ''New Albion''.

''Albany is a nice town'' = ''Scotland is a nice place''. The Zodiac had already checked out Scotland, when posted to France.

Albany NY = ''Scotland New York, New York''.

We all have our own ideas ?

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 03:04:10 am

I like the story of Francis Drake. It may well be that this land would now be called New Albion, for his queen - but he failed to understand that you actually had to occupy it, and left no mariners behind.

The Spanish were no fools, and claimed it themselves, as soon as they were able.

Back shortly, with something more pertinent to topic.

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 03:50:07 am

''Time is short, enjoy life while you can.''

The last known unconfirmed leak, came via Mike Morford - the 1972 Private Citizens letter, in May 2022. Personally, I believe it was leaked by CA DOJ, as a rebuke to FBI's Dan Olson.

But, the leak before this is the personal ad. to the Seattle Times, dated March 25th 2021 - the 2nd anniversary of ''Game-on-gate'', the personal humiliation for Det Terry Poyser and his lackey, Tom Voigt.

The personal ad. only lasted a few days, before it was removed by the Seattle Times. I estimate the placer (Zodiac ?) spent about $400 on its placing. It is still available to see, however, at the zodiackillermystery.freeforums.net site.

It starts: ''HAPPY BIRTHDAY ! TO THE ZODIAC SISTER/S
Life is short, Eternity is long.''.

It ends: ''And what will happen if he is gone ? The same ! The same ! Time marches on.''.

Another ''unconfirmed'' is The Burger Chef 340 - an electronic card, in celebration of the 50th anniversary of Zodiac's Lake Berryessa attack. September 2019: ''It's time we got together.''.

So, ''Time'' a recurring theme for the Zodiac ?

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 11:16:19 am

Yes, Richard - with your spotted ''You are too beautiful to live'' reference, I think I am talking myself back into the possible Zodiac authenticity of the typed note. Another ''false claim'' from the real Zodiac.

I presume we don't know the precise date of the note ?

Richard

2/14/2025 01:58:29 pm

I think Howard Davis once put forward his thoughts on this letter but I can't remember what he said. Clearly the letter gives the impression it was written before she was killed. This would partially negate our ideas of necklace and chains being instrumental in the murder and crime scene, because these would have to be engineered in the future, which is unpredictable. Of course, it could have been typed after the murder and been given the appearance of being written before. I tend to think this is more likely because if I had received such a letter I would either have confided in friends about it, reported it to the police or destroyed it, none of which happened. So if it was found in her residence after the murders, which would have been discovered quickly (as they were lying in public), then the letter would have had to have been placed at her residence almost immediately. It could have been placed there days later, but how long was her residence vacant for before new occupants moved in. However, it is possible she kept the letter and told no one because she had only just received it. Without absolute confirmation of its timing, I may have to defer to what Howard once said.

Richard

2/14/2025 02:20:58 pm

You are correct in that the autopsy described they appeared to have been whipped with a patterned device, so local chain sellers and types were cross-checked with the markings.

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 02:21:45 pm

Interesting what you say, Richard. Yes, one can imagine the ears of Howard Davis ''perking up'' at an LA connection, with his Manson beliefs. The May 2nd 1978 Channel 9 letter must have been big for him. I noted that when I started mooting that Reet Jurvetson was the Zodiac's (false) 8th victim claim, Davis ''perked up'' again. God rest his ''decent'' soul. He had as much right as any, to have his beliefs, and I believe contributed greatly on the ''family of Donna Lass'' angle.

Yes, I still believe Reet Jurvetson was the Zodiac's false 8th victim claim, and was angling to persuade he was moving his terror campaign to Los Angeles - snuffed out, rightly or wrongly, by the FBI suppressing the San Jose letter & cryptogram of Nov 21st 1969, with respect to Reet's Nov 14th murder - dumped along Mulholland Drive.

But, as you imply, Richard, the jury is probably out on this typed note.

Undecided.

Myrta

2/17/2025 02:11:16 am

I thought the Burger Chef (and Greetings from Ireland) e cards were considered to be hoaxes. I wonder why anyone would bother committing such a hoax. Seems like a bit of trouble.

Rubislaw32 link

2/17/2025 03:29:06 am

It's a pertinent point, Myrta. But the correct terminology, perhaps, should be ''yet to be confirmed''. Both are ''still out there'', doing the rounds.

The Greetings from Ireland card released on the 50th anniversary of the murder of Cheri Jo Bates (Oct 2016). And the Burger Chef 340 released on the 50th anniversary of the Zodiac's attack at Lake Berryessa (Sept 2019).

Personally, I am of the opinion that the Greetings from Ireland card, although sent to me, was meant for Tom Voigt. And, the Burger Chef 340, sent to Voigt's site, was meant for me. There is a lot more to both, than meets the eye.

But, the only agency that carries the legitimacy to authenticate or confirm any aspect of the Zodiac case - is case custodians, CA DOJ.

So, it is a bit perplexing that, in recent years, ex-Intelligence processors FBI, have been coming up with ''things'' that they deem to be ''confirmed'' or ''the final word on the matter''. Laugh out loud.

All said, Myrta, ''hoaxes'' is not an unfair opinion.

Rubislaw32 link

2/17/2025 05:25:06 am

A deal ? Richard can hold me to account, if there is a Zodiac arrest.

There are two different meanings to the following:

1) For the Greetings from Ireland card, ''GOOSECHASEOGR''.

2) for the Burger Chef 340 card, ''Johny B Scyphers''.

I don't think Mr Voigt likes the idea of being compared to a Leprechaun, who were known for speaking exclusively ''A load of cobblers''. Not least chasing rainbows to find elusive crocks of gold.

But, there you have it.

Myrta

2/17/2025 09:44:39 pm

Thx, Rubislaw, for the reply. Agree, it is best to keep an open mind. I find the e cards fascinating whatever their genesis.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/19/2025 05:29:30 am

I'm a fan of cards. Never heard of this "Burger Chef", or even "e cards" as it pertains to this case. So much to learn. As always, useful updates and information on this site.

Richard

2/14/2025 02:26:37 pm

This is what Butterfield wrote "The 1997 book Manson: Behind the Scenes by former Secret Service agent turned Manson expert Bill Nelson, presented the “missing Zodiac letter,” a document allegedly discovered among the possessions of murder victim Doreen Gaul. A young resident of the Church of Scientology house in Los Angeles, Gaul reportedly dated Manson follower Bruce Davis. Gaul and friend James Sharp were abducted, murdered and dumped in a downtown alley on November 21, 1969. The killer or killers had savagely stabbed and beaten both victims. Nelson claimed he had obtained the “missing” letter during a meeting with former Los Angeles Police Department Lieutenant Earl Deemer. The author had added what appeared to be drawings of drops, perhaps blood or tears. This letter was signed “The Zodiac Killer,” although the Zodiac had never used this name and only referred to himself as “The Zodiac.”

While Nelson claimed that the Zodiac had sent the letter to Gaul, others were skeptical and believed the letter was a forgery meant to echo the typed and handwritten letters attributed to the Zodiac in another murder in Riverside, California."

Richard

2/14/2025 02:33:15 pm

What I would say, is if it was a forgery, how would the adding of "drops" to the letter have benefitted Bill Nelson? If you wanted to imply that the letter somehow originated from the Manson Family or Bruce Davis, then one would have expected a hoaxer to have used language in the letter to lead towards either Davis or the Manson family.

Richard link

2/14/2025 02:38:34 pm

Here's a link to the autopsy report and some police files for those who are interested .

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 03:07:17 pm

Gosh - Gaul and Bruce Davis dated.

Yes, the ''Zodiac Killer'' as opposed to ''Zodiac'' hadn't occurred to me.

Has to be a ''negative'' on Zodiac authenticity ?

Richard

2/14/2025 03:33:58 pm

Yes, not ideal but the Halloween card had "Z" not "Zodiac". I question this communication as Zodiac because his kill count didn't rise by 2 in the Bay Area. The "You are too beautiful to live", if derived from the description given to the Hollywood actress, it could have been chosen to suggest a link with the author to Hollywood, remembering that Sharon Tate, a Hollywood actress (like Barbara La Marr), was murdered at 10050 Cielo Drive, Benedict Canyon, Los Angeles. The phrase designed to suggest a Hollywood link.

Rubislaw32 link

2/14/2025 03:49:16 pm

I suspect the ''Bead necklace'' and ''chain'' doodles (if that is what they are) were added at a later date.

It's as if the letter was suspected of being ''not Zodiac'' - then promoted as being authentic.

Someone ''pushing'' for an LA angle ? Strangely, I think the Zodiac had moved to the LA vicinity, anyway. But, he was away working, much of the time.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/14/2025 06:55:59 pm

I might agree here.

I could be mistaken, and I could be wrong about it. But my sense is, based on what I believe I may have found. He would not really call himself, and profess himself as the Zodiac-Killer.

I could be very well mistaken on that. I would not be surprised if there was strong proof that he did. But if my hunch is correct. He himself, his identity, and what he was, was a "Zodiac"

Why?

He called himself the "Zodiac" as a blatant clew for anyone to figure out why. Why would he call himself that? It's especially important because we know the papers anointed him as "The cipher slayer/killer". But he NAMED himself "The Zodiac".

Surely it's semantics. Possibly semiotics. But if my hunch again is correct. "The Zodiac" and what it may refer to as a person, is very different from saying "The Zodiac-Killer"

This is important, in terms of being a clew that might point someone in the right direction I feel. There are other thoughts I have of course, mostly rooted in my rudimentary understanding of cryptology. So I may not artfully say this, but here's what I'm thinking:

If you, or more specifically, he -- called himself "The Zodiac-Killer" then it's the "killer" that will define him. Which is not what he was, or considers himself to have been. He considered himself a "Zodiac". So a good question might be then, in what cases and instances could a person, be a Zodiac and in what iterations?

So possibly a "Zodiac" is different from a "Zodiac-killer".

Theoretically and semantically a "Zodiac-killer" could define someone that kills "Zodiacs" versus what a Zodiac is. If you catch my drift. This all seems like I'm speaking in riddle because I am a bit, because as I mentioned, it's a nuanced concept.

I'm trying very hard to highlight a subtle difference in language. A subtle difference that I believe is important. It's important as an identity.

From the outside looking in, Someone external, who does not know the secret of what a Zodiac could be, would define a killer who called himself "The Zodiac" as the Zodiac killer.

But a person who kills, and thinks of himself as "a Zodiac", would not call himself a Zodiac killer. Lest he possibly come to be an enemy to others who may call themselves a "Zodiac". Then that's a very different thing for one to call themselves a Zodiac killer.

I'm not sure at all if that's clear. Hopefully in time, I will be able to explain it better.

(PS there was not a team of Zodiacs. That's not what I'm saying, and that's not what I believe. At this time, it's not clear to me that others like him called themselves Zodiac. It's my belief he called himself that as an allusion to what he was. Others who may have believed like he may have believed, call themselves something else. Something that is tangential to a "Zodiac" or what those close to that wording alludes to. He couldn't say in one word what he was, so he used this tangential word again as a clew to what he was)

Just my opinion of course. Everyone has one. We may in fact find out one day I was completely wrong. Who knows?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/14/2025 07:58:59 pm

Not to put too fine a point on it. But.

A kind of analogy to the point I was making is this possible scenario:

If I were a serial killer. And if during my day job I worked construction. I might get cheeky and send taunting emails and sign them as "The foreman".

But before I hit the send button, I might think better of it, and say, that may place them too close to a good lead. I would need to create more separation between who I am, and what I do and my name or occupation. Who I am.

I would not want a clue to get within 1 degree of separation from where they could connect to me. So I would run that first concept of "The foreman" through a further kind of "transformation".

Here would be the thinking. I work construction, but I'm just a worker, but one day I'll show them and become the foreman. But let's abstract that further so they don't get too close to me and figure me out..

I'm a builder, and I work in brick and construction. Maybe I'll refer to myself as "The mason" instead of "The foreman".

Now this is a great idea.

It accomplishes my goal of abstracting the idea of "The foreman" one degree over. While it's still actually relevant to what I do, in construction. I build like a stonemason.

I've now also added a mystical element like that of the masons. That secret society that everyone knows.

This would be my thinking process. If I were the killer.
1. Connect and ground with my identity -- the real me, whoiam
2. Now abstract it out 1 degree from the truth so it would not be overtly EZ to connect it to that true identity of what I am
3. further transform the idea but connect it to something esoteric, and archaic, and mystical which adds to my mystique and obfuscates my identity further but is still a clew to those who can think abstractly but make connections

This is almost like how one would think cryptologically. To create a cipher.

In the modern age of computers and cryptography, this is akin to a concept called "Hashing".

Again apologies if it sounds like nonsense. Sometimes it makes sense when I think about it. Not sure if it translates out properly when it's written.

Cheers.

Richard

2/14/2025 11:14:27 pm

In other words, the pseudonym of "The Zodiac" encapsulated who he was from his perspective, and adding "Killer" was unnecessary because that was not what he exclusively and wholly identified himself as. He was much more. Many people agree that killing wasn't his primary motivation because [1] he never particularly dwelled on the murders in his letters, and [2] He never employed tactics that fully ensured his victims didn't survive. The attacks were performed to create the necessary platform for his communications. Therefore, he perceived murder as a by-product to his identity, that was much more than the sheer act of killing. The Zodiac believed that killing shouldn't define him - he was much more than this simple act. Is that about right Ed.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/15/2025 08:10:36 am

Dearest Richard,

Yes that about sums it up.

In my opinion, naming himself that -- "the Zodiac", is part of his game of (Catch me if you can), that was one of the games he played. It was an enduring one for him. Can you guess what my "identity" is? This is also a further and nuanced conversation. As "identity" is not the same as "name". This was the game he played.

If my hunch is right, that word "Zodiac" does not directly point to what he was. It only alludes to it.

As far as the killing, my thought is, what you're saying is close. But not that the killing wasn't something that he did, or did not want to do. I would have to assume that he did, enjoy killing.

But more pleasurable than just killing, would be, killing with impunity. Giving a certain sense of impunity to the perpetrator. Conveying a sense of superiority to him. Being a GOD figure.

GOD kills with impunity.

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 01:45:04 am

Nicely ''walked through'' Richard, and well summed-up. ''The Zodiac Killer'' has to indicate B.S., regarding the typed note.

Of course I note that so many Zodiac followers avoid the issue of ''motive'' if they can. It's understandable perhaps - they don't want to be pigeon-holed, and believe they might get around to this matter, at a later date.

Even Lyndon Lafferty had a stab at it - W J Grant had multiple personalities - which I just could not go along with - but he was one of the few that did offer something.

Anyone that visits Zodiackillermystery.freeforums.net regularly, knows that my ''suspect'' is ''motive'', but also believe I have someone in mind that fulfills this criterion. ''Motive'' is 90% of solving the case - has always been my edict.

And you are right - the Zodiac wasn't one to dwell on murders - apart from the B.S. over his count of them. As I have intimated before: He only showed remorse for Darlene - the rest meant nothing to him.

Richard

2/15/2025 02:35:01 am

Also Rubi, what we have to remember is when he chose the pseudonym Zodiac. It can be reasonably argued that he had no pseudonym in mind when he mailed the July 31st 1969 letters, but by August 4th "Zodiac" appeared. Why did he reveal this pseudonym to the Examiner? All was revealed on the last line of the Debut letter when he wrote "I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage". The Sunday Examiner & Chronicle (headed by the wording Special to the Examiner) on August 3rd 1969 put his ciphers on page nine, mentioned the pseudonym "cipher killer" and wrote "Stiltz said he still is not convinced the letters and codes were written by the real killer, although the letters contained details of the crimes that are not public knowledge". Stiltz asked for more facts. The murderer switched "cipher killer" to "Zodiac", immediately wrote "In answer to your asking for more details", and then finished by berating the newspaper that had relegated his letter to the inner pages the most. This may be why he rushed the letter by hand the following day. So we have to bear in mind that if he came up with the pseudonym Zodiac between August 3rd and 4th, its selection was chosen under time constraints. The Zodiac Killer could have chosen his pseudonym days or weeks earlier, but just chose not to use it on July 31st 1969. However, there is no evidence that this was the case, but there are tangible arguments to be had for it being chosen in a matter of hours between the Examiner article on August 3rd and the following morning. We can speculate that he chose "Zodiac" at an earlier time, but it's not the obvious choice based on the reasons listed above.

Yes, Zodiac never appeared to derive pleasure in retelling the victims suffering, rather he detailed them in order to provide evidence. He was a clinical psychopath, using the victims as means to an end. They were a requirement for his letters to be published.

JIbberjabber

2/15/2025 02:50:21 am

His little-list letter is a bit sadistic though, he seems to be saying he would enjoy torturing his slaves in paradise. Could be BS but that shows a little bit more "evil" for want of a better word than most his other communications. The confession letter (whether Z or not) is quite sadistic in places too but delivered matter-of -actly which can negate its effect on first reading.

Great question to ponder, did he enjoy killing people? HIs actions suggest maybe not but his words at least indicate otherwise if we take them at face value

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/15/2025 08:39:43 am

Everyone has a theory, as to why he called himself Zodiac. Many have surmised and supposed and put forth arguments and thoughts as to why.

There's an "interesting" one tied to a watch and Arthur leigh Allen. I don't subscribe to that one at all. I find it a bit, one dimensional. I'm not really familiar with many others. I think there was one about a car ornament? I mean, these both sound silly to me even just writing them.

When I think of motivations. Especially for something like murder. One could even say, a campaign of murder. I think of things like the blurb attached to Helen of troy. "A face that could launch a thousand ships"

Or I think about the delicate statement about more wars and death having their origin in Religion than not. This is because of the nature of Religion to completely envelope the whole of one's self. A converted "believer" is more dangerous than a non believer. Suicide bombers yell "God is Great" before giving themselves up for this world, and ending their earthly sentence.

I for one am very interested in the connection in both time and theme to an oft connected series of murders that occurred before the "Zodiac" was introduced.

I'm interested in the character of "Zodius" that appeared in the lexicon and a few items that surrounded that case. Which preceded "The Zodiac".

I'll not go an a screed right at this moment ;-) , but in a previous post I mentioned "Semantics" and "Semiotics". I get them confused sometimes. But one of them has to do with "changing meaning over time". This is actually something that happens especially in popular culture. It is playing out in the mass media right now around certain terms.

Why do I bring this up?

I find myself intrigued by words, and how they change over time and through language. Here's an example; hieratic ---> heretic. Completely invented by me, is the assumption that the hieratic was an originally legitimate sect of belief that was an in-group but transitioned to an out-group through culture, and because of that the shortening of the term for that out-group became a slur. Or worse, an almost death sentence.

I'm interested in the name Zodius, because to me, I believe it to be a trial balloon. I believe it to be a combination of 2 words as a forging of Zod (an energy) and ius (the last letters of a famous person in certain circles, with some relevance to the energy named Zod).

It's my working theory, that this trial balloon was both too esoteric for the public, and at the same time, too on the nose for what he was, because of what I defined earlier.

I think about several things in that case and how they connect to each other and how they've come to inform the name that would eventually be chosen. Zodiac.

Here are the items that stand out to me, that I feel are connected:

Zodius --> Dr. Giudini ---> superior table --> Zodiac.

Strange I know. I almost only needed to write it out to see for myself what it would look like if I did. It does appear silly. Perhaps it is. We may find out one day if it was.

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 03:08:25 am

The Zodiac's 13-hole postcard:

''Some of them fought. It was horrible.''

As regards confirmed murders - NONE of them fought, actually. And I believe firmly, that Paul Stine accepted a $10 advanced tip ($75 now). Hardly ''fighting'' ?

For the Zodiac to make light of his ''brief encounters'' - says a lot about his attitude. They amounted to little or nothing.

Richard

2/15/2025 05:03:38 am

His little list letter was sadistic, as was his 148 character cipher, but this was referencing a fictitious afterworld of slaves, who would already have passed on, rather than living, breathing real people. If he was responsible for Cheri Jo Bates, then he did derive pleasure from suffering, but this wouldn't have been under the umbrella of Zodiac.

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 05:27:21 am

Yes - it's almost as if those sorts of writings were his reward for having achieved ''kills'' in real life. There must have been some ''self-hate'' inside ? The writings and off-hand cruel comments were to make him feel better about himself.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/15/2025 08:45:54 am

@Rubi,

I forgot where I had come across it, but some good researcher, possibly the one that found all of the misspellings are not misspellings, may have found a reference to that line...

"Some of them fought, it was horrible"

Similar to Sir Richards line of thinking, that many of the lines the Zodiac wrote had references to other news articles. Someone found that the line above is actually from a text source.

Meaning, he wasn't saying it literally about himself, but it was a reference to an arcane text, possibly Biblical. But don't quote me on that. I don't have that reference on hand unfortunately. But thought I would mention it.

He would be continuing to drop these literary breadcrumbs, and that might have been another one of them.

Richard link

2/15/2025 12:20:09 pm

"Some of them fought, it was horrible" was taken from this one article.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/uploads/4/9/7/1/4971630/168491870426159140hallways_orig.gif

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 12:53:55 pm

Great reference catch:

''It was horrible'' and ''Some them fought''.

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 02:15:23 pm

Well, EdEdwardsCiphers, it's ''tenuous'' - and bearing in mind that Richard's catch of the SF Examiner's references ''It was horrible'' and ''Some of them fought'' - is the absolute place the Zodiac nicked his 13-hole postcard statement....but:

In my 100% homophonic solve of S5 (Z180), circa 1998, the Zodiac writes:

''...people for the collection of...''

With concealed message: people for t = people fort.

And this gets us back to ''One big thirteenth'', which is probably an allusion to the 13-day siege of The Alamo - a famous fortification where a relative handful of Texans dug in against the might of the Spanish army.

Something (maybe) that inspired the Zodiac.

Rubislaw32 link

2/15/2025 02:23:15 pm

My apologies in advance, to any Mexicans - but let's be real about The Alamo.

Richard link

2/15/2025 12:57:35 pm

Where he got the pseudonym Zodiac from Ed is the age old question. I can't deny that the crosshairs and Zodiac on the watch is eminently possible, but I tend to go with the Zodiac horoscope and the 12 star signs placed around the circle in the form of a gunsight. The reason I believe this is by working backwards from June 26th 1970 to November 9th 1969, where Zodiac used the crosshairs in the form of a clock on June 26th 1970 and again in the Bus Bomb letter with five X's plotted on the hour markers. A clock can be divided into 12 portions of 30 degrees, which the star signs are often placed around.

He used this to aid in our search for a hidden bomb from Mount Diablo in the Button lettee, and in the Bus Bomb letter he used the five X's when tilted close to magnetic north landed over his claimed attack sites, which I've linked above. This of course opens up the question of whether he chose pre-determined attack locations (or at least some) to line up over the hours on a clock/star sign circle. Therefore combining his murders with the horoscope. It all sounds far-fetched, but he could control the exact position he murdered Paul Stine, and could have deliberately chosen Lake Berryessa. And when we draw a line between his first 2 attacks and continue that line southeast, it passes directly over Mount Diablo.

The Zodiac horoscope design and crosshairs facilitated these puzzles on November 9th 1969 and June 26th 1970, so did he factor this in advance of choosing his pseudonym, or were the crosshairs and Zodiac pseudonym connected by the watch and subsequently used as a tool without forethought. The Zodiac Killer was always compass aware, stating "the girl was on her right side feet to the west", "If you will go one mile east...... On Columbus Parkway to the public park", "They are two miles north of Park Headquarters" and " there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west". The Zodiac used all four compass points of south, north, west and east in letters about all four attacks. Add this to his Mount Diablo crosshairs and five X's on the Bus Bomb letter and we see that the Zodiac Killer was spatially aware of co-ordinates, just like in astrology and the Zodiac. I have attempted to work backwards to understand why Zodiac chose his pseudonym. I may be wrong, but it's my best guess.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/16/2025 08:20:44 am

Dearest Richard,

As usual, you make salient, sane, and cogent arguments. Not only do I agree with the Horoscope, connection. I endorse it. It is more than relevant, it is eminent.

One of the letters you refer to, I believe it's the Bus Bomb letter. It's the one with the X's.

There is a Reddit contributor that actually came across what they thought was an odd occurrence. They believed that the crosshair symbol with the X's looks like a monthly calendar. But not a normal calendar, one that is called a "Sun Wheel", which is an old pagan timepiece. It is also what most people in this community call "The crosshairs" or "The Zodiac Symbol". It bears a remarkable resemblance to a Sun wheel if you ask me. Again, this is a pagan symbol. A religious symbol. Or more accurately, an anti-religion symbol.

It is my belief, that this Redditor has actually discovered a cipher. A puzzle. Why do I believe it to be a cipher? Because it follows many of the rules of puzzles I myself have discovered while working independently from this person. Unfortunately I don't believe this person was aware of what they found. And you can't blame them. They would not understand what they had found, because they would not be able to see if what they found repeated as a pattern in any other instance.

I believe it's because they were following the wrong suspect. I shared with them something similar to what they had found, to highlight a concept that I would have assumed they would understand seeing since they discovered the puzzle. But alas, I believe this person had tunnel vision and had already decided on a suspect. A teacher or a professor I believe. They won't find anything else similar to their discovery I'm afraid.

As far as working backwards to try to understand why he chose his pseudonym, I would believe that is the right tack to take. And may ultimately lead to a discovery of what it truly means. I myself on my journey, have made my own conclusions based on many stops along the way. I've touched on one of those many stops above -- the discovery of what looks like a "Sun Wheel" cipher, that is actually still unknown by the public inside the "Bus Bomb" letter.

There could be more connections that I have missed. My process spans a larger timeframe than the Zodiacal canonical timeframe, so I look at things very differently than I think most do. Not only because my focus is on tracking one suspect -- I suspect many do in the community. But unlike most, I've found themes that come back around and complete a type of narrative. The Sun Wheel for example.

And one final thing, and this is a bit of a segue, but not fully. There's this new-old saying, that "Two things can be true at the same time". Meaning the symbol could be connected to Horoscopes. It could also be connected to North, East, West, South as you suggested. And it could also be a Sun Wheel.

This is one of those times where again I talk about nuance.

The concept of Homophones means that the same meaning can exist in two different symbols. In fact, in many different symbols. That is to say, someone thinking in this way all the time -- cryptographically. Would have no problem with this type of "duality".

Understanding this concept is very tricky, and interestingly has appliances in modern artificial intelligence. Why is this relevant? This type of thinking is not EZ for many people. Which could speak to the qualitative nature of "intelligence"

Someone with a higher quality of intelligence will be fluent in this kind of traversal of meaning through symbols as they change. Sun Wheel -- Crosshairs -- Direction symbols. Whereas someone with a lower quality of intelligence may struggle with this fluidity and traversal, and be more rigid in their thinking.

This concept in AI circles is very important, as it pertains to what comes next with Artificial General Intelligence and has implications for Super Intelligence. This concept of "traversal" that I touch on (I'm no expert) has to do with an ability to "Generalize". This is that quality I mentioned. Generalize is a bit of misnomer I'm afraid. What it actually means, is to grasp a concept fully, and apply it to a different set of circumstances. Think understanding the concepts of Chess, and generalizing them to how people behave and maneuver and their machinations.

I notice such things in many in the community as some struggle to either see this in themselves and others.

The struggle continues however. Let us hope in time, Artificial Intelligence may actually help us to uncover and understand what we were dealing with. We may need that intelligence. Some more than others. I'm speaking of myself of course ;-)

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/16/2025 08:48:55 am

Just a point to clarify.

I spoke about sharing with another contributor. I'm no scientist, but I'm vaguely familiar with how to conduct experiments and testing protocols and things such as blind or double blind studies, as well as contamination. Important for understanding salience and actual patterns not clouded by bias or other factors.

At no point did I share with this contributor who my suspect was. Nor did I share identifying information meaning something that could be traced back and would be specific to my suspect.. It could be considered "blind".

What I shared with the person was the ConcernED CitiZen letter. Which I believe contains not only a cipher, but a specific kind of "signature" cipher. It follows a similar conceptual pattern as to what this Redditor had found.

So this would mean, I may have discovered an as yet not publicly known signature cipher hidden in the ConcernED CitiZen letter. And someone independently has discovered an as yet not publicly known cipher in the Bus Bomb letter.

Both ciphers, discovered independently by two different researchers, yet having a similar "Transformation" or "Function" as it's main algorithm for decryption would give me reason to believe, even if I did not do it myself nor were involved. But that's just me. I would value these type of results as they would seem the most "pure" and "true".

It's things like this occurrence that reinforce for me, that I'm on the right track. But still, there is room for bias confirmation, which I'm always trying to be conscious of. Hence the need to point out what I would think would be the "blind" nature of the discovery.

It's one of the reasons my name contains the word "Ciphers" ;-)

Richard

2/16/2025 12:00:53 pm

I have read many of the theories regarding the Bus Bomb X's Ed, but without examining each and everyone, what I believe about the Zodiac puzzles and ciphers, is that they clever and subtle but not mind blowing and convoluted. Everybody can believe what they choose, but from my perspective, if the puzzle requires multiple steps (say 5 or more) to decode or work out, the designer of the puzzle is left in a position where he can't reasonably expect anybody to solve it. If the person solving the Z32 or Z13 for example, has to write "War and Peace" to explain it, then it's almost certainly wrong. The Zodiac Killer when creating his puzzles had to have a reasonable expectation that it could be solved, otherwise there is no point or fun in creating it. So when I see a 20 page explanation to say the Z32 such as the one that hit the news, I lose interest pretty quickly. The Zodiac puzzles are simple yet not immediately obvious.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if we had thought logically about the 340 cipher before it was solved, which I and many failed to do, the challenge to Zodiac in the San Francisco Examiner on October 22nd 1969: read "The killer wouldn't dare, as he claimed in letters to the newspapers, to reveal his name in the cipher to established cryptogram experts. He knows, to quote Edgar Allan Poe, that any cipher created by man can be solved by man. Zodiac has not told the truth in his cipher messages to the Examiner, the Chronicle and the Vallejo Times-Herald. Zodiac has not done this, because to tell the complete truth in relation to his name - in cipher code - would lead to his capture. I invite Zodiac to send The American Cryptogram Association a cipher code - however complicated - which will truly and honestly include his name".

This was probably a clever ploy dropping Edgar Allan Poe into Zodiac's mind, hoping he would employ one of Poe's decryption techniques for his ciphers. His Z340 and Z13 were both represented in the essay by Poe called "A Few Words on Secret Writing". As you know Ed, the first cipher tackled in the essay was a Scytale cipher, that can be used to decode the 340. The second cipher tackled in the essay splits the alphabet in half, with one half beginning with A and ending with M, just like the Z13. If we had gambled on Zodiac doing this 56 years ago, then we could have concluded that the likeliest decryption technique employed by Zodiac in his 340 involved a period shift technique. It would have saved a lot of time. My point being, that the 340 solution was nothing more than a period 19 shift separated into 3 parts. It had a couple of steps. So the Zodiac expected it to be solved relatively quickly, hence why he inserted a contemporary message about the gas chamber. I suspect that any solution to a Zodiac puzzle that cannot be explained inside of one minute is almost certainly wrong. Creating a puzzle with an acheivable answer is fun, but creating a puzzle so convoluted that nobody but its creator can solve is not fun. In fact, it's pretty pointless. There are ciphers out there that have remained unsolved for hundreds of years, but I suspect they were created by people far cleverer than Zodiac, for purposes far grander than taunting the police.

Richard

2/16/2025 12:18:12 pm

Just recently I wrote an article off the back of the Edgar Allan Poe story above, showing that not only did Zodiac use the Poe Scytale method of shifting the ciphertext 19 places, but his cipher likely ended I AM NOT AFRAID BECAUSE I KNOW THAT MY NEW LIFE IS DEATH. LIFE WILL BE AN EASY ONE IN PARADICE. It was then I noticed that Edgar Allan Poe also wrote about death, writing a poem to his recently deceased wife called "To One in Paradise". I took this further and noticed his only published book called "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket" which began with "My name is Arthur Gordon Pym", just like the Z13 began.

However, a few days ago I noticed that ARTHUR GORDON PYM also began with A and ended with M. It doesn't fit into the 13 character cipher but how many coincidences do we have. The connection of Z340 and Z13 to the essay "A Few Words on Secret Writing", the poem containing "One in Paradise", the book beginning "My Name Is", and the name "Arthur Gordon Pym" immediately following it, beginning with A and ending with M. Weird or what?

Richard

2/16/2025 12:43:50 pm

Vincent McConnell recently claimed that the Z13 was unsolvable to which I disagree. Taking all the considerations I've listed above, if Edgar Allan Poe's only published book was called "The Narrative of ALFIE DEREK FAR of Nantucket", and this book began with "My name is ALFIE DEREK FAR, which 100% satisfies the code, I would confidently declare the Z13 solved. However, now I'm looking further into "Arthur Gordon Pym" to see if this name has any relevance to the Z13 and Zodiac played one big joke.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/17/2025 08:48:03 am

Sir Richard,

You've given a lot to chew on. I'll try to respond to the easiest that I can first.

My opinion only of course. Take it for what it is. Opinion.

A one time pad is unsolvable or at least it's statistically the closest to that from what I understand . This is based on what little I know about cryptography, and what I've been able to learn and teach myself. (Don't tell my employer that though as they may no longer pay me for admitting such a thing)

Simple and obvious math I would imagine that most people could do, is that (1) A one time pad -- is not 13. It should be pretty clear to anyone that 13 is greater than 1. It's in fact 13 times greater than 1.

I would have trouble supporting a mind that has trouble differentiating between a thing that has a one time chance, vs something that gives you a thirteen times factor greater than a one time chance. Do you know what I mean?

I referenced earlier a quality of intelligence. This could be an example of what I mean. If a mind equates 13 things, to the same as a thing that is singular, uno, one, then what else could that mind be a bit confused about. Or to use mathematical or statistical language, such a type of thinking, is 13 places off from the correct line of thinking. The distance from 1 to 13.

Not sure if what I said makes sense. But no, the Z13 is not unsolvable. It's extremely hard, but a one time pad, would be harder and closer to impossible, but still not impossible .

Nuance.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/17/2025 09:20:42 am

Sir Richard,

This one is a little harder for me to respond to. But I'll try.

I don't doubt that there might be a connection to Poe. But I just don't know. That's just me and would be due to my focus being different based on what I believe I have found that are points that connect for me on my journey. Someone else's journey and findings may differ.

You may be very strong with this line of thinking and would clearly be further along in any research along that line than I would. If you are on a strong bead based on hunches and reinforcements from findings then I would say -- have at it. No one knows where discoveries could come from. You could not tell me I would have been here and have found what I found a decade ago. I would have called you mad and off base if you did.

So anyone's theories are welcome and valid if they put forth effort and show critical and logical thinking, and can explain their thought process. Some can't. We'll see if even I can. I may fall short as well.

As far as the Scytale cipher, you may be surprised to learn that I have not acquainted myself directly with it, except to learn it was a cipher method using a stick.

I'm entertained by the word though. As I mentioned, I'm a fan of both semantics, semiotics and word games and puzzles. For ex, my brain always plays out the two versions of how to say that word (Sky-tail, and Sk-italy)

I'm vaguely aware of the period 19 shift for the cipher, but not how scytale factors in. This could just be a sign of my ignorance.

I like the idea of a connection to Poe, and poetry, and if there was something written by him titled "My name is" then that seems like it could be a road to go down and investigate.

As far as the Z13 specifically. I don't put any effort into it because of the statistics involved. But I should tell you, in my mind, I believe it is possible to solve. I believe based on my current work, and findings, and piecing together what I believe is an interesting line of thinking that could possibly give me some insight into what it is.

I would almost view the Z13 as a dessert, and a final opportunity for me to look at after I possibly make more connections or decryptions.

I've seen several names that some have put forward. Possibly Alfred Neuman? Possibly Arthur Allen? But I tell you another reason why I expend no energy on the Z13. There is one name that fits in effortlessly. Without any transformations or adjustments. It's almost too EZ to slot that name in, even though it fits exactly. But to be honest, based on what I've learned, it would not be so simple as a one to one Homophonic solve. I don't believe his mind worked like that.

I have never heard of Arthur Gordon Pym. Is this a real person? Or do you believe it's some sort of Anagram?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/17/2025 10:25:31 am

Dearest Richard,

This is the hardest question that you pose, and is the most difficult for me to answer here, in this format.

One because I have problems with the framing of it. So it's difficult I find, to ask someone to reframe their thinking. I find analogies in artificial intelligence, but I won't be able to explain in brief here. The hope is I can come up with something in a video at some point to try to help explain this to a wide audience in the future.

Believing that something can be clever and subtle and yet not convoluted, could feel like a kind of framing of something, that may cause someone to be outlining the limits of what they can perceive. Which is a bit problematic.

Putting this framing around something I feel, is similar to what I mentioned in a prior post about a "false choice". Which is a real thing that happens. It's like the saying about having blinders on. There could be more taken in at one time, if the blinders were removed, or the aperture widened, or the framing of thinking similarly augmented.

One analogy that comes to mind as it pertains to artificial or even regular human intelligence, and for purposes of discussion here, is the concept of "Object permanence"

In simple terms, object permanence can be attributed to the game of "peek-a-boo" that adults play with children. Children at a certain point in their development do not acquire the concept, that objects remain permanently behind the adults hands, when they cover their face. Once children acquire the concept of object permanence, it becomes like a software package upgrade for their internal mind.

It's an upgrade of their intelligence. They move forward in life with this ability to process all manner of things work this way in the real world. So their brain incorporates this new way of thinking as a subroutine that then becomes permanent. They no longer can view the world in the same way. They move forwards , not backwards and are similarly reinforced with feedback that strengthens this loop.

One can then contrast those concepts, with the concepts of simplicity, power, and elegance. Concepts such as raw power, scale, scope, even beauty. Which is as some would describe, is "in the eye of the beholder"

The "multiple steps" comment is a bit confusing for me, as I would have trouble comporting that with the solve by the trio of Oranchak and company.

Are you saying that the solve using the period 19/knights move solution, falls within that framing? I could see an argument for and against that. But I would say that there might be problems with framing something that took over 50 years to decipher as something simple.

That might seem like simplifying something of 50 years, down to 5 simple steps. I would have trouble processing and incorporating such a thing into what is my current frame of thinking. There are concepts in cryptography that may be applicable here. Some from crypto-mining like, proof of work etc. These are mathematical concepts rooted in reality, and time. I would have trouble compressing something that took 50 years of work into a concept of 5 simple steps. So that would be a limitation on my ability to properly process that.

I'm sure I have multiple limitations even in understanding. This could just be another one. But I can't say that I agree with this kind of framing. I might even go so far as to say, I think it could be problematic. Limiting even.

Could you imagine someone limiting themselves to a crime being solved, to only a local area, with the thinking that people don't drive, or take buses, or airplanes? And could simply leave that area?

Wouldn't you view that type of thinking as provincial? Wouldn't you view that almost with pity, that the person is simply not opening up their mind to the possibility the criminal simply left town?

If we were to interview such a person in the town, who was Law enforcement, wouldn't we wonder how they could simply not understand that a crime was committed but the criminal simply left town?

Not sure if I made much sense here. I could just be tilting at windmills. But as always, I enjoy our discussions. I feel they help me very much to process some of my thinking.

;-)

Richard

2/17/2025 12:01:12 pm

The way Zodiac used a period 19 shift was (and is) an extremely simple way of encoding a message, but a lot harder to solve because you first have to identify the technique used by Zodiac. Not withstanding the fact he messed up when he applied this methodology, which Dave Oranchak cleverly recognised, such as "gas chamber" appearing within the cipher. Dave Oranchak knows far more than I do about cryptography, but Zodiac effectively split the 340 into 9 rows, 9 rows and 2 rows (step one), then applied a period 19 shift to the 2 rows of 9 (step two). The row of 2 is an anomaly. This was an increase in difficulty from the 408 but it certainly wasn't the multi-faceted approach that many people took before the solve. Dave Oranchak showed how Fayçal Ziraoui created his erroneous solution by putting the Z13 through so many steps, you could literally change it to anything you wanted. Choosing arbitary techniques thrown together you can effectively manipulate the Z13 to whatever you want, however, the more you do this, the less the credibility of the solution has. Had Zodiac employed the Fayçal Ziraoui method, no reasonable human could ever have been expected to solve it. Of course, Fayçal Ziraoui will say he managed it. But he didn't - he just manufactured something from nothing by putting the 13 characters through the wringer until he arrived at a predetermined destination.

I could find Arthur Leigh Allen, my name or your name in the Z13, given enough time. If you are determined to find a suspect's name in a cipher you will always find it, assuming a modicum of brain power. Now if the name Arthur Leigh Allen had been identified in the Z13 by somebody before Allen became a suspect, now you've got my attention. The fact that numerous people find their own suspect's name in each cipher is confirmation bias. They already know the answer they are looking before they start. The more different steps you shove a cipher through, the easier it becomes to create that desired outcome.

The solution to the 340 by Dave Oranchak was obviously correct within a few minutes of looking at it. The FBI wasn't needed to ratify the solution. When the Z13 solution is found (if ever) most reasonable people will know immediately it's the correct solution. It will be relatively simple and probably tie in with something like the Poe theory. I'm not saying my presentation is the answer - far from it - but there will be something to back up the answer elsewhere, is my guess.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/19/2025 05:37:11 am

I'm no "Faycal what'shisname", perhaps that's why I'm not on tv nor in the newspapers. Perhaps that's a hint I'm on the wrong track? Who knows? Perhaps that may change, perhaps it won't.

Maybe the point is the journey and not the destination. Perhaps that could be a consolation prize for me.

You're better than me Sir Richard, I couldn't ascertain that anything was correct in a matter of minutes in looking at it.

Perhaps you have a gift? Or perhaps that's just a deficit that I may have? Others may have? I have been told I may be slow in some areas.

;-)

Rubislaw32 link

2/16/2025 04:49:45 pm

It's all over bar the shouting, Richard. And naturally I would say that:

Dec 2nd 1971, a letter to the FBI:

''My name is .... Tel:......The reason I am writing about something you already know is that.................. ............get involved in helping to solve crime. Sincerely Yours ........''.

D B Cooper FBI File 14, Pages 296 - 298.

I have asked the Zodiac to give himself up countless time, but I've only heard from him once. He remains at large - but I am hoping Mr Trump might intercede soon - with the help of others.

Rubislaw32 link

2/16/2025 05:00:41 pm

Mr Trump, only last week:

''Prime Minister Starmer requested it - not me. The UK risks getting caught in the crosshairs.''.

Whatever was Mr Trump talking about ?

Richard

2/17/2025 12:15:26 pm

That is certainly convincing Rubi, "The reason I am writing about something" on December 2nd 1971, nine months after writing "The reason I'm writing to the Times is this" on March 13th 1971. Very, very interesting Rubi. Have you done a FOIA request to get it unredacted.

Rubislaw32 link

2/17/2025 01:30:55 pm

FOIA's just aren't my bag, Richard. One could be waiting for a long time, and then be turned down. But, I admire those who try, and sometimes succeed.

Much of that letter is redacted, probably indicating D B Cooper case custodians FBI, themselves, have much they don't wish for the public to see. Even, part of the postmark is redacted (!).

I've been through the D B Cooper FBI Files, and would say the Zodiac is responsible for another 6 D B Cooper letters, in addition to the 6 ''confirmed' 'to be by the hand of someone other than Dan Cooper, the hijacker. Based anyway, on what the FBI said in court, when served a lawsuit by Tom Colbert.

Similarly, I believe the Zodiac got involved in hoaxing/extortion with the kidnapping of Patty Hearst. And ABSCAM and WACO. But, it has to be noted that these weirdos like Zodiac, faced stiff competition from other hobbyists.

For the Zodiac in 1971, the conviction of Karl Werner in September was a veritable credibility death knell for him - at least in the eyes of SFPD & San Jose PD & CA DOJ. He had no real alternative than to figuratively vacate his Bay area arena of terror.

Well - ''what d'ya know ?'' - just two months later an idiot (Dan Cooper) jumps out of an aircraft with a stash of cash. I think it saved the Zodiac's sanity, who would have been depressed that he couldn't keep the ''Zodiac thing'' going.

Rubislaw32 link

2/17/2025 05:45:26 pm

Another one for the pot:

From Los Angeles, November 18th 1975, to the Syracuse PD, NY:

''To whom it may concern......I will not give my name because I do not want it to be in newspapers or TV.''

Compared to :

August 10th 1969, from concerned citizen:

''Please forgive the absence of my signature or name, as I do not wish to have my name in the papers.''

D B Cooper FBI File 37, Pages 63 & 91.

Richard

2/18/2025 04:10:08 am

And November 18th is just two weeks after the "Zodiac" note was found in the Belmont telephone booth after the lovers' lane shooting of Anthony Vincent Bruno. That 1975 letter is almost word for word what Zodiac wrote in his Bay Area letters as you've stated. Sadly the name given by the writer has been redacted, along with a telephone number. It would be nice to know if these details were fictitious or otherwise - then we would be all the more wiser. Another good find regardless Rubi.

Rubislaw32 link

2/18/2025 06:07:34 am

Gosh, I hadn't realized the date link to the shooting of Anthony Vincent Bruno, Richard.

One presumes letters like these have ended up in the FBI Files, because they proved or were suspected of being ''dodgy''. And therefore, such details as names in the letters, were probably ''fictitious'' (?). But, the FBI were unable to take chances, if those details later proved important.

From December 15th 1971, two letters sent - one to The Oregonian newspaper, and one to the local FBI office in Portland OR. Obviously from the same sender. The ''cut 'n' paste'' includes ''alais D B Cooper'' - misspelling of alias, but this misspelling presents ''ALA is D B Cooper'' (Arthur Leigh Allen). And - a misspelling of ''announcement'', written as ''annocement'' - which could be interpreted as ''an' no cement''.

In the typed letter, there is actually a name left in tact - a claim on D B Cooper's real name:

''David Bartholomew Copperhead''

Priceless stuff, there.

Rubislaw32 link

2/18/2025 06:13:24 am

Ref: FBI File 16, Pages 402 - 408.

I suspect that Arthur Leigh Allen reminded the Zodiac of Fred Flintstone. Z had checked ALA out ?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

2/20/2025 05:45:00 am

I can absolutely see that.

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