TWO CARDS TO AVERY ABOUT DONNA LASS?

1/5/2025

Donna Ann Lass

Many people have asked the obvious question of why did the Zodiac Killer make the effort of obtaining a second Halloween card to painstakingly cut out the skeleton from this card to paste onto the October 27th 1970 card we are all familiar with? Thanks to the great work of SmallOrbit from the Reddit platform, we now know the identity of that second Halloween card. The Zodiac Killer would also cut out a rectangular section from around the eyes of a young girl from the inner portion of this second card, to affix onto the skeleton in the appropriate place. It appears as though a additional skeleton was pivotal to the choice of the Zodiac Killer once his October 27th 1970 Halloween card was opened. It may also be significant that he took the time to add the eyes of a female to the skeleton he pasted on his card inner. Bearing in mind that the Zodiac Killer was now claiming a fourteenth victim - and Donna Lass is the only victim he has ever claimed between July 26th 1970 and October 27th 1970 - we could be forgiven for believing the skeleton with the female eyes was meant to be Donna Lass. The thirteen eyes (representing thirteen souls) looking at the latest Zodiac victim in skeletonized form.

This 1970 greeting card, and the Pines postcard on March 22nd 1971, were the only two mailings by the Zodiac Killer to San Francisco Chronicle journalist, Paul Avery. The Pines postcard, with its "Lake Tahoe" reference and punch-hole, is widely believed to be referencing the burial site of Donna Lass. It's almost as though the Zodiac Killer was directing Paul Avery and law enforcement to the remains of Donna Lass on March 22nd 1971, who he had implied was his fourteenth victim by addressing Paul Avery five months earlier. If the Zodiac Killer was claiming Donna Lass as somebody he murdered in the Pines postcard on March 22nd 1971 - and he only raised his victim count by one between July 26th 1970 and October 27th 1970 - then the Halloween card's fourteenth victim had to be Donna Lass, who disappeared between these dates on September 6th 1970. There really isn't any other option.

THE HALLOWEEN CARD FOUND BY SMALL ORBIT ON REDDIT. CLICK THE IMAGE TO VISIT THE FORUM THREAD.

Thanks to Andrew Gray for this image

Having fashioned thirteen "floating eyes" on the Halloween card inner to possibly represent his previous victims, it may have necessitated the adding of female eyes to the skeleton's skull to represent his current victim. With the choice of a skeleton being representative of the time elapsed between September 6th 1970 and October 27th 1970, and the probability that Donna Lass had been buried in a shallow grave somewhere around Lake Tahoe, unlike his previous victims, who were discovered at the site they were murdered. It's possible that the choice of skeleton was indicative of Zodiac's lack of faith in law enforcement to find Donna Lass in the next few months, until such time he provided additional clues to the police to aid in the discovery of her body (such as the Pines postcard). But why would the Zodiac Killer choose to bury his latest victim, something he had never done before?

Maybe because of his fascination with puzzles, having previously given us a code and map on June 26th 1970, in which he claimed to have buried a bomb somewhere in northern California. Then followed this up on July 26th 1970 by giving us the phrase "The Mt. Diablo Code concerns Radians & # inches along the radians", to further help pinpoint its location. If the Bay Area murderer was prepared to play games with a bomb, why wouldn't he play games with a body? This isn't beyond comprehension, because he mailed the cryptic Pines postcard on March 22nd 1971 with a punch-hole and associated directional markers, such as "pass Lake Tahoe areas", "Sierra Club" and "around in the snow". These were obvious location points designed to direct law enforcement to a specific area beyond the lake. In 2024, I used the punch-hole and the directional aids on the Pines postcard to identify an area by Chubb Lake and Yuba Gap, just 1,000 meters from where the partial remains of Donna Lass had been discovered in 1986 (but not identified until 2023). The punch-hole sat over the remains of Donna Lass.

It was also interesting that the Zodiac Killer had chosen a 1962 UX48 Abraham Lincoln postal card on March 22nd 1971, lacking postage and issued nine years before this mailing. So was the Abraham Lincoln card chosen for a specific reason? I noticed that the address side of the postcard had the crosshairs and "Zodiac" around the punch-hole, with the upper point of the crosshairs touching the letter "D", which was the first initial of "Donna". Across from this was the "Abraham Lincoln" stamp with the initials "A" and "L". If the punch-hole represented the burial location of Donna, then this could have been fashioned to read "D .A. L" or Donna Ann Lass. The front of the postcard pointing to her name, and the reverse side pointing to her burial location.

Therefore, we have two cards, both addressed to Paul Avery in the space of five months. The Pines postcard appeared like a cryptic puzzle giving us clues to the name and burial location of Donna Lass, with the October 27th 1970 Halloween card only increasing the victim count by one since July 26th 1970, spanning the period that Donna Ann Lass was last seen at the Sahara Tahoe Hotel & Casino. A Halloween card, in which the Zodiac Killer went to great pains to add a second skeleton with female eyes to the card inner.

But what would be the point of burying Donna Lass and playing this quite extraordinary game of "hide and seek" with her body? Even if law enforcement had identified the general area of a possible burial site from the Pines postcard directions, there would be no guarantee they would find the specific location of her body after months or years had elapsed. I wonder if her burial site had been marked by the signature of Zodiac. On something like a heavy rock, that would stand the test of time? Although this may seem unlikely, it falls a long way short of impossible.

On October 6th 1970, the Zodiac Killer mailed the 13-Hole postcard with the number 13 on the card, so why didn't the Zodiac Killer raise his victim count to fourteen here, if indeed, he was the murderer of Donna Lass on September 6th 1970? It is possible he wasn't ready to yet lay claim to this murder for any number of reasons, but could have pasted the phrase "Fk I'm crackproof" to indicate he had now achieved "Fourteen kills" (or "Fourteen killed") as another cryptic clue. The use of fourteen within this card could have begun the theme of "fourteen", which continued in the Halloween card three weeks later by way of "14" and "4-TEEN". The Halloween card symbol on the envelope and card inner also appeared to have the letter "F" in its design, so the Zodiac may have replaced "Fourteen killed" with "Zodiac Fourteen".

However, this doesn't change the fact that the Zodiac Killer, according to most researchers, was claiming the murder of Donna Lass on March 22nd 1971, and his victim count only increased by one between July 26th 1970 and October 27th 1970. Therefore, the Zodiac Killer, by mailing the Pines postcard on March 22nd 1971, has left us with the inevitable conclusion that the Halloween card must have been claiming Donna Lass as victim number fourteen. This being the case, are we to conclude that the skeleton he pasted onto the Halloween card inner, was the imagery of his misdeeds near Yuba Gap in Placer County?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/4/2025 05:31:55 pm

Dearest Richard,

Nice to see this here with its own space. It does deserve it.

I myself had posted about this previously in another area, so perhaps here would make more sense to share some of my thoughts about it.

While I do not know for certain many of the connections to the murder of Donna Lass, nor the count # of the murders, whether they had totaled 14 or not. I do have some rather strong opinions on this card.

And another card in particular, because it has served to reinforce what I believe is something that's present in the Halloween card itself. I'll refer to that after.

I'm of the very strong opinion that within this Halloween card is an overwhelming theme of "The Tarot"

I've mentioned this previously, so I'll try to summarize and be brief. Although I might fail at that :-)

1. The skeleton on the front.

It is customized as mentioned with the pumpkin. This in my opinion, helps to drive home the point that the skeleton is meant to replicate what has come to be known as baphomet or the goat symbol. This is tarot card # XV, or fifteen, instead of fourteen, which the Zodiac for some reason has relabeled this tarot image as.

This number 4-teen, is on both skeletons, and I've seen multiple people refer to this as a possible count of the murders. While this is possible and cannot be discounted, I noticed that tarot cards are also labeled in this manner. They have #'s atop each representational image in their decks.

A quick google search for "The Devil" tarot card or card #XV "fifteen" will show an uncanny similarity to the front page of the Halloween card, with the hands in the similar position (The pose name escapes me, but I believe the hand pose has a name).

The skeleton, which I believe is stock for the card, on the front is not exactly like the #15 tarot card in that the legs are extended as normal legs would be. It's interesting however, that with the orange pumpkin placed in the groin area, one could almost notice that the skeleton becomes more like the #15 tarot card of baphomet with his orange like legs and midsection. This would make the hands that are already in the right position, somewhat match the body of the image in that card. That's one possibility.

2. The skeleton placed inside

This skeleton, also has the #14 atop it. Again many believe this to be the count of murder victims. It suspiciously is very similar to the skeleton on the front, in that the # is above the image of the skeleton. This is also like many tarot cards which are numbered.

This skeleton, although it's posed. The pose is different.

Skeleton # 2 is placed upside down, (I have a brief video explainer on my channel which will be expanded to show this). It bears an odd similarity to the tarot card "The hanged man". This tarot card # is mislabeled by the Zodiac also as "4-teen", when in the Rider Waithe deck of Tarot cards, the hanged man is XII (#12).

The hanged man is odd as well for this usage, because not many decks use a skeleton for this image and pose. It's usually a thief in this pose. The giveaway is the crossing of the legs. The arms in this pose is also not the common one. But if you do a google search, and learn a bit about tarot, you will come across this exact image (I have a few in my video)

So you have 2 images, of 2 skeletons, both with numbers atop them, that most believe are murder counts, but in my opinion bear striking similarity to cards in the Rider Waithe tarot deck. Which by the way, would make for a great grid system for someone to communicate multiple themes, both to extract and to encode, if one were of such a mind to do such a thing.

The second skeleton, is obfuscated in a way that would confuse anyone that would get too close to seeing anything that would be a repeating message, such as a frequency bigram, is like a homophone -- it is transposed. It is placed upside down.

3. Paradice
The completely customized backing image, for which I've not seen any research, has what many remember as the word paradice, or should I say, extracting that word from the image, instead of analyzing what that whole image is.

The word is part of an entire system. But most extract just that word from it. It might be a bit much to explain here, so I will try to further explain this on my channel, because much of it is a visual puzzle, with all of the themes connecting back.

Paradice, and all the words on the back, are an old archaic secret communication mechanism, used in christianity. I'll leave it to the many sleuths who do yeoman's work, to try to find it.

If my suspicion is right. The last image, is a multi step decipherment of a 3 part puzzle. The first two I've given what I believe are the clews to it as before. The 3rd image circles all the way around back to the tarot card system.

Why do I believe this? And why would I think this? Well for one, I believe he drives the point home with another one of his greeting cards. The dripping pen card.

It too, I beli

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/4/2025 05:35:42 pm

Oh Ed. You got cut off again. When will you ever learn :-p

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/4/2025 06:38:10 pm

Here's one example of what I believe Skeleton #2 placed on the inside is.

He's inverted, or "Reversed" it, which is common in the practice of tarot. This could almost be a signifier, that this person is communicating in a "language" that they are familiar with possibly.

Skeleton #2 "The hanged man"
https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures-2023/tarot-card-hanged-man

Skeleton #1, with the customized pumpkin for the crotch, or as I believe might have been referred to previously as hiding a "3rd" leg -- might be a trolling joke, for some to try to figure out what this customization could be. Meaning the Zodiac customized and cut that part out specifically, and placed it on that image specifically. Which might be curious.

Could it be a Zodiac level troll, for someone to try to figure out what and why he would do this to the card?

Here's an image of that tarot card:Skeleton #1 - front of card - pumpkin colored orange
https://animalia-life.club/qa/pictures/tarot-cards-the-devil

Puzzle # 3 - the back of the card - Paradice

I've not seen this discussed on any fora. But to me the back of the Halloween card bears a striking resemblance to this arcane item tied to Christianity, and secret communication.

Upon reading it, see if you can see how this communcates back to the system of "Tarot" like I might have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

Perhaps it's a thing. And perhaps not. Something I thought I had noticed over a year now. It might be unclear, so apologies for that. I'm still working on some videos to try to explain these concepts and possible connections on my channel.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/4/2025 07:02:28 pm

Skeleton # 1

A stock item on the card. But is suspiciously similar to a tarot card. The positioning of both hands, but with the legs being different than tarot orthodoxy. The customized image also is not having a "Couple" that the tortures beneath him, as "The Devil".

This card is customized with an orange pumpkin, and in doing that, the stock card is changed to more resemble the tarot card of "The Devil". Could this show that the person customizing it was going in that direction?

It is then labeled atop, similar to how tarot cards are numbered in an ordinal sequence. However, he has resequenced the # to not be from the standard deck to tarot cards. Which is strange and could be confusing for someone looking for a 1 to 1 correlation.

Skeleton # 2.

He finds another item. A skeleton, this one also happens to be a tarot image, the hanged man. But it's "reversed" as is common practice in tarot.

This customized item is also labeled atop it, although it's a different # than it should be from the ordinal series of tarot cards, it's mislabeled as 4-teen, which is confusing as it is not in the correct sequence of tarot cards.

It's also confusing, because although the images may translate to different tarot cards, they are both skeletons and both have the same #. This could throw someone off, from seeing that there could possibly be a connection to tarot.

Someone looking for murder #'s may be distracted from the fact that there is this odd, vague, thematic similarity between just these two images.

This would make 2 skeletons, 2 tarot card symbolical connections, and both items like tarot cards, are numbered as if to be the same number, and yet are different in the ordinal numerical gridlike system of tarot cards.

You then have;
Puzzle # 3.

The Sator square. This one took me a while. As I mentioned, I like word puzzles. Let me know if you see a word puzzle right there, staring you in the face, been there the whole time.

A quick read on the history of the Sator square, along with a few good youtube videos might give one a fantastic insight into the history of that item.

The clew, may become more clear perhaps after finding such things.

If there's a clew to begin with.

Of course I do, and there's more as I mentioned. Once one sees, that there may be this connection. A quick further search on tarot, may help one see what the Dripping Pen Card might be, and how it connects thematically back to all of this.

Tarot.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/4/2025 07:21:12 pm

Puzzle # 3

Or the "Back of the Halloween Card".

Many have taken to referring to this, only as "Paradice"

I have not seen on any forum, the pattern of what this image seems like to me -- The Sator square.

This is the 3rd page , of this document that is fully customized as I understand it, but I could be wrong. I was wrong about the 2nd skeleton being from a hobby kit, but my focus was not on that. I was more focused on extracting any themes that I could find. And I thought there might be a tarot connection.

The third page, the "Paradice" may seem out of place if there is to be a powerful and connective tissue to the them of tarot. If there is one.

Could it be that the writer, the creator, the customizer of this card, was operating from one "Theme" and almost like a dealer who deals cards, was dealing cards from one deck of themes, while forcing everyone to try to "decode" what he was saying?

If the 1st skeleton has similarities to Tarot, and the 2nd skeleton, has similarities to Tarot, then what would "Paradice" have to do with Tarot?

I'm curious if anyone has ever read up on the sator square, it's origins, what it was initially used for, and could possibly see a reason why the Zodiac might have included it?

It's been fascinating for me to read up a bit about it, and I caught a great short documentary or 2 on it. Fascinating.

I'll leave you with this, as I mentioned, I like word puzzles. See if this is a possible puzzle. I thought it might be.

sator

rotas

-----

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 10:50:15 am

A little bit of an expansion on it, because I've not seen an answer to the challenge.

Sator - obviously refers to the square.

Rotas - is an anagram of the word Sator. It is inside of the device, known as the Sator Square. The historical and Christian reference IMO is integral to understanding what is going on both in the card, and in the Zodiac case writ large. But that's my opinion. I’m curious if any researchers have gone down that rabbit hole, but I believe it has paid dividends for me. Mileage may vary.

Rota - is also part of the symbolic wordplay involved in the Sator Square, which transmutatates into the "Rota" wheel or Rota Fortuna - the wheel of fortune.

This is a Tarot card.

Some would say, there is even a connection, nay, an origin story for the Tarot, as it is a word formed from the Rota wheel, repeating and repeating to infinity.

Rotarotarotarot.

If that makes sense. I'm not sure it may to most. Like I said, I like word puzzles. I think it has served me well. But I could just be kooky.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 12:57:38 am

I agree with you, EdEdwardsCiphers, that the general design and created positioning of this ''2nd'' skeleton, is reminiscent of the accepted ''Hanged Man'', from the practice of Tarot card reading.

Simply ''flipped'' upside down.

But, that is the card-illustrator's doing. A good spot from you, though.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 01:15:46 am

It may well be that the theme of Halloween first became imprinted on the Zodiac - in ''celebration'' as such, of Cheri Jo's 1966 murder.

Where might we first see its manifestation ? I would suggest December 1969, and his 2nd Fairfield letter: ''The Bleeding Knife'', as an illustration.

The Bleeding Knife being the name of a trick played on unsuspecting gatherers at Halloween, fooled into believing a person has badly cut their forearm.

This traditional trick goes back to the 19th Century, in its conception.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 08:09:45 am

Halloween has a theme, that does go back centuries. Do you know the history of it? I've gone down some interesting rabbit holes around it.

The all hallowed eve. Some say it goes farther back from what some would say are its pagan origins. Fascinating stuff.

Tarot also has a theme. Which we've touched on.

Christ-Mass could be considered a 3rd point in that theme.

I tried before, without much success, but let me try again.

Do you see a theme:?

Halloween(card) - Tarot - ChristMass - Sator

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 08:04:57 am

...Simply ''flipped'' upside down. But, that is the card-illustrator's doing. A good spot from you, though

I am confused by this statement.

The Zodiac, reoriented the image180 degrees. Meaning that the illustrator had no impact on how someone else would orient his work. In this case, the Zodiac repurposed the work. Was that not clear?

The assumption is that most people don't turn their books or artwork upside down to consume them, much less repurpose them.

My apologies if this was unclear. I do believe now I really am getting confused.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 08:58:22 am

Tx for agreeing, somewhat I guess, with me Rubi.

Tell me, do you see anything else reminiscent of the "2nd" skeleton and the "Hanged Man" from the practice of the Tarot card reading, and the Dripping pen card?

Do you for instance notice the position that the pen is in? Does it appear to be "hanging" ?

Unlike others that may have a long history or research into tarot and runes, my history with it is much shorter and less deep. So I was curious if I had found something that may not have been found before.

For ex. Does this image seem similar to the positioning of the Dripping pen in that card?

https://mx.pinterest.com/pin/433541901616663276/

I'm assuming you're familiar with this image. It's the hanged god ODIN. You know, Odin, from old Norse mythology? The guy with the runes?

From what little I know, and have researched, there is a version of the tarot, where the hanged man is said to have originated from the stories of Odin. As in , Odin is the original "hanged man".

There are even some connections to the hanged man tarot -- as the hanged GOD Odin. Did you already know that? I would assume so, but don't quote me.

Wouldn't that be something, if the illustrator, and the Zodiac somehow sent cards that not only were so similar to Tarot cards, but in this instance, two different cards that may have been subtly referencing "The Hanged Man"?

I don't know. Do you think it makes sense for someone to have that as the driving line of their killing joke to the public?

Perhaps it's just me though. Perhaps there is no pattern. Hanged man. Hanged God. Dripping pen. Odin hanging with blood dripping from his foot.

What do you think? Possible? Mayhaps a collaboration again with the illustrator?

I find it curious myself.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 09:20:11 am

The things you refer to are always possible - and don't dismiss them ''out of hand'', so to speak.

But, the Zodiac does seem to be one for pilfering and plagiarizing ''bits and pieces'' simply for ''effect'' or increasing a ''red herring'' aspect.

I just don't think he was that serious about much of the teachings & philosophies currying favour & popularity at the time. Although he did show curiosity, and might take the time to read about them, if in a journal or newspaper.

Richard

1/5/2025 02:18:37 am

I can see a similarity too, but unfortunately we have millions of skeletons depicted in books, magazines, comics, illustrations, cards, in one print form or another, so attributing significance to two that look close to one another, is not proof that this was intended or had purpose by the author. The author definitely went out of his way to add the second skeleton, which by definition is one person in skeleton form, but there is no way to prove its positioning had any significance to the Zodiac Killer. Once upon a time people used to say the skeleton was positioned like Paul Stine, which could never have been the case. Others have considered the inner skeleton looking like a crucified individual. I have shown the skeleton similar to The Dance of Death (1493) by Michael Wolgemut, when skeletons go dancing to the graveyard. Again, the skeletons positions can be interpreted in a myriad of different ways, not withstanding what Rubi said, that the author had no control over the position of either skeleton from either card. The article is attempting to discover by victim count who the Zodiac was referring to in the card through comparison with the Pines card, by using the dates of his mailings. Tying it to a suspect is another whole level of interpretation and another deep rabbit hole. I'm not criticizng people's belief in a suspect, but Drew Beeson will find Don Cheney in the Halloween card, Mike Rodelli will find Kjell Qvale in the Halloween card, Mark Hewitt will find Ted Kaxzynski in the Halloween card etc etc. If I spent one month looking at the Halloween card every day for 16 hours I can guarantee you I could write a book on Ed Edwards being the author of this greeting card. I could do the same for every suspect ever mentioned. The Halloween card is open to such interpretation, it is possible to connect it to Jesus Christ and Donald Trump. I too have attempted to interpret certain elements of the card, but the crux of the article is honing in on the dates Zodiac mailed his communications, allied to the number of victims he was claiming, and the date of Donna Lass' disappearance, which are all rooted in fact. This is the bedrock of the analysis. Years ago I looked at the Tarot angle, along with the Runic angle, even writing several articles on it. Unfortunately I wasn't convinced, so I deleted the articles and ended my examination of this possibility. I have also seen hundreds, if not thousands of different interpretation of the By Fire, By Gun, By Rope, By Knife, Paradce and Slaves formation, including Michael Cole's very good book. The problem being, we have thousands of people, with thousands of different interpretations, often with thousands of different suspects based on these interpretations. And of course, everybody will claim they are certainly or most likely right, and everbody else is wrong. The same can be said for suspects. We have thousands of suspects with different ages, different heights, different weights, different accents, different characters, different professions, driving different vehicles, living in different locations, with different hobbies and interests, and different intelligence. Yet they have all been with a big hammer, bashed like a square peg into a round hole into the Zodiac Killer. They have all been moulded into one person with one set of characteristics. So my question is, do you think this is a reliable technique. I go back to something I've said before, that every person who has a suspect must believe they are better at what they do than everybody else. Because if they didn't they would be advocating for somebody else's suspect, which they don't. This is the exact reason I avoid this approach Ed.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 02:29:56 am

Yes, Richard - I think that if the Zodiac had positioned the 2nd skeleton upside-down in Avery's card, then we would be on to a winner with a Tarot card (Hanged Man) link.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 02:49:40 am

It has to be said that the Zodiac was ''want'' to literal duplicity - more than one interpretation from most things he put down in print or illustration.

I would suggest, for example, the ''four dots'' appearing in his special signature: In braille they denote '' i.e.''. But also, read as two dice forming ''double two'' - the dice's ''blind-side'' shows a one and a four - fourteen.

''double-two'' ? Catch-22.

Richard

1/5/2025 03:58:00 am

Because of the joined "F" in the symbol, I I've always interpreted the four dots as distinguishing "F" as Fourteen, rather than Fifteen. And in line with the "14" and "4-TEEN". But again, how long is a piece of string. All we can do as individuals is assess the merit of people's diffrent interpretations. Some will sound convincing, some will not. But this opinion of others theories, is also interprative. Ed is confident of his Tarot connection and suspect, and I am not going to argue against Edward Wayne Edwards as a suspect, because I am merely pointing out the general problem of viewing the Zodiac case through a suspect, rather than viewing the case independent of a suspect. If a new and genuine Zodiac communication was unearthed tomorrow, somebody with a suspect would try to forge links from that communication to their suspect, as opposed to viewing it with a blank slate and letting the "evidence" lead. Having a suspect will inevitably bias your approach. For example, I am not going to ask Mike Rodelli to use geographic profiling to point to a likely residence for the Zodiac Killer, because he already has his answer before he has started. I am not going to ask a Ross Sullivan advocate to examine the 1986 or 1987 letter for authenticity, because they are going to say they are hoaxes before even looking at them, based upon the fact Sullivan died in 1977. All I am trying to say is I don't mind in the slightest people putting forward their theories on their suspects, but it's an approach I don't subscribe to. Irrespective of my opinion, I welcome all contributions to the website, because some people will disagree with me and like Edward Wayne Edwards as a suspect. And my goal isn't to dissuade them of that opinion. I have always remained consistent in the belief that none of the suspects convince me that they are the Zodiac Killer.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 08:01:02 am

… Again, the skeletons positions can be interpreted in a myriad of different ways, not withstanding what Rubi said, that the author had no control over the position of either skeleton from either card.

All fair points sir Richard. My assumption here is that you don’t see a pattern, from the 1st page, to the 2nd page, nor the 3rd page. It sounds like you’re saying that in a sea of noise, which you’ve listed previously, this may be another entry into many and a contributor to that noise, and not signal. I think that's what you're saying.

… I too have attempted to interpret certain elements of the card, but the crux of the article is honing in on the dates Zodiac mailed his communications, allied to the number of victims he was claiming, and the date of Donna Lass' disappearance, which are all rooted in fact.

Here there seems to be a conflation with Edwards and other suspects. I’ve made no mention of Edwards. Also, there’s a focus on the dates, and the facts. Which have their place. And is a strength of yours no doubt. It is not my strength. As I mentioned previously, the # that is atop both skeletons, seems to be a point of discussion about murder counts, and this ties into the argument about the dates as a sort of foundation for that argument.

What I’m saying, is those #’s, seeing as they were customized and not a part of the original card, seems to point to a need for the sender to put that there. While it could connect to a murder count, I find it interesting, that it could also be a nod to how Tarot cards are formed.

Were you able to locate this in your previous Tarot research also?

… This is the exact reason I avoid this approach Ed.

I’m not sure what approach you’re referring to. I was asking if you see a pattern.

But I do believe I may have gotten my answer. It might be best if I just say thank you for that.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 04:31:22 am

Yeah - the biggest kick I get is finding something I would term as ''neutral'' - as I would suggest the ''Catch-22'' spot, to be.

When, one is pretty sure that Zodiac could have been ''anyone''.

The rest is waiting to see if law enforcement, or indeed politicians of influence - can be ''arsed'' to put this case to bed for good.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 08:12:57 am

Dearest Richard,

The Joined "F" character you reference. Is that what most refer to as the cattle brand symbol?

I'm curious if during your previous research into runes, did you come across anything that appeared to resemble that "Joined F"?

I would be very curious to hear about that.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 07:47:05 am

First. Many thanks for allowing me to post my thoughts. It's very appreciated.

It seems both yourself and Law of Ruby, are making connections and assessments to Edward Wayne Edwards. I've not mentioned my suspect (Which is Edwards) for these items nor connected him in any way to these cards, I've mentioned a pattern.

I've made no link to the cards to Edwards. No statements that Edwards sent these cards. While my name is EdEdwardsCiphers, the statements about these cards being connected to him or have been sent by him, are not in any of the posts that I’ve made on this page. That might be something to take a look at. A response to something that did not happen, might be a shaky logical premise to start from. This could indicate biases at work that could cloud thinking. I sometimes have to challenge myself to not confirm biases or prejudge, and it's not EZ.

To try to sum up, I see a pattern of the 1st skeleton, and the 2nd skeleton, along with a 3rd pattern that may be hard to see. I don't believe I had seen thoughts on that.

As you’ve mentioned multiple times, to let the masses decide. Perhaps the masses don’t see such a pattern. I'll hope to test that. Wish me luck, as it seems I might need it.

I've also made mention of yet another pattern in another card -- the dripping pen card. But I don’t believe I’ve seen any thoughts on this. What I've read so far, reads as "perhaps the 1st and 2nd skeletons are a pattern, and perhaps they're not". Which is fair. I however mentioned a 3rd and a 4th pattern.

But as I see it, these items are puzzles, and the thing with puzzles is, not everyone can understand them, much less see them. Perhaps this is even what I'm experiencing in reverse? Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there? Including connections where there are none? Time might tell.

Perhaps they're only in my mind, and not in the mind of the masses. Which could present a problem for me, and my mind.

You’ve mentioned previous research in both Tarot and into Runes. I was not aware of that. As I’m new to much of this research, a lot of that history will be new to me, especially if it pertains to one specific researcher and their journey. I don’t study researchers, I do study a serial killer. Perhaps I will find this research that you did previously and it may help me. Who knows, perhaps I can learn the ways of my mistakes through the hard work that you have already done?

I would be curious to read more about your research into Tarot, and Runes. I am sorry to hear that you spent many hours down that road, and found nothing that you feel was of worth.

Perhaps others have had similar or dissimilar results?

Rich

1/5/2025 09:12:19 am

Ansuz and Laguz were two of the runic symbols I looked into for the Halloween card configuration, like many other people, but that fell out of favour with me because I felt I was over thinking what Zodiac meant. I arrived at that position when I used to believe the SLA letter (Norse) was genuine Zodiac, which I now don't.. The Tarot card connection I looked at when I was looking into Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan, wondering whether an occult angle could be forged to Zodiac. I have attempted to find some material from the Wayback Machine but can't find it. Trust me Ed, you wouldn't want to read it anyway. I'm sorry for bringing up Edward Wayne Edwards regarding your skeleton analysis, I wrongly assumed you were basing it on your suspect.

Rich

1/5/2025 09:21:03 am

There is an interview on video somewhere where Paul Avery stated that even the Church of Satan rejected Zodiac.

Rich link

1/5/2025 09:25:09 am

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/a-halloween-card-symbolism-breakdown-t7536.html

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 10:24:20 am

Dearest Richard,

Can you imagine, if you did have a suspect, where Ansuz and Laguz actually did show up in your research of that suspect?

I wonder. You read the Old Norse clew, and looked into Ansuz and Laguz, but it sounds like your trail then ran cold. As it should, because you then had nothing else on that trail.

I wonder if it had turned out differently and you did find breadcrumbs that led you back to that trail, if you would then consider that you had only briefly gone cold on the trail, and lost it perhaps but were only correct when you got back on the right track ? What if you went off track, but someone else was on the right track?

Maybe food for thought.

As far as bringing up Edwards, I would suggest the lesson there is , being mindful of confirmation bias, leading to prejudging, and then arriving at incorrect assumptions. This is a danger I’m mindful of as often as I can be, as it’s the enemy of logical thinking.

As time goes on, and you get to know and understand my positions more. I would hope you would see, I'm a bit different than most in the community.

While I don't have the experience you have with the case. I definitely don't have the breadth of knowledge either on the case, as your fabulous website is such a fountain of knowledge on the case. It's a relative Gem.

I'm quite unlike anyone I believe you may have encountered who's been involved in this kind of thing.

I try to analogize myself to help to explain how and what I am, but I haven't come up with a good analogy.

Forrest Gump, might be a kind of analogy, but doesn't exactly fit.

I'll try to explain it this way.

Have you ever had someone ask you to try something, something you would never think about doing for yourself. And then when you did it, and you barely applied yourself, you found that you were good at it.

Not just good at it, but others who had more, and more opportunities than you did, you achieved more, and more quickly than them? It came easier to you? And yet you disliked it. It's quite a conundrum? That's the closest I can come to describing the experience.

Perhaps that doesn't make sense now. Maybe one day it will.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 10:34:14 am

Anton LaVey.

Yes of course. Anton himself was familiar with Tarot. If memory serves (And I'm bad with the facts) he actually created, or (re)created his own Tarot deck.

I wonder though, if he (re)created the deck, perhaps the clews actually precede him?

Wouldn't that be something??? Imagine if the trail that you stopped at was La Vey, and yet the real answers preceded La Vey, perhaps may have even been the inspirations for La Vey?

Imagine if you went all the way to La Vey, and stopped there, and didn't actually make it back all the way to the origin of everything? Where you could actually find answers, possibly even to why he called himself Zodiac?

Wouldn't that be something?

I wonder if I did that, if I might say "There's nothing there, it's a dead end". When right around the corner, was an actual answer.

I think I would feel the same way as well.

Rubislaw32 link

1/5/2025 09:40:04 am

I wouldn't lose any heart over what you are pursuing, if I was in your position, EdEdwardsCiphers. If you so believe.

If I do have a leaning, myself, it is to a suspect that may not even exist. So, I just ''work the case'', and see what materializes. My ''suspect'' really, is ''core motive'' of the Zodiac: Persecution of his biological father. Although I do have someone in mind who is still alive - last time I looked.

But, it's getting ''late in the day'' on that front.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

1/5/2025 10:07:59 am

Tx Rubi.

A few things though. My name is EdEdwardsCiphers for a reason.

It’s not EdEdwardsFacts, and it's not EdEdwardsistheBoogeyman -- it's EdEdwardsCiphers. I chose that name, because unlike other suspects, I’ve found artifacts connected only to Edwards. These connections, ciphers, and themes flow through the life of Edwards and through the time during which the Zodiac was prevalent.

These cards we’re discussing would fall into that category. That of ciphers, and puzzles that elude a lot of people. It’s a phenomenon I encounter quite a bit. Which is why I ask if you can “see” it, or not. I’ve seen patterns that repeat, and tie back from Edwards, to the Zodiac, and back again. I’ve not seen these patterns, or “ciphers” connected to other people.

But as far as the card, and Tarot, you could almost say, I'm sharing these things with you about the cards, and Tarot as an entree. As I've mentioned before, and Sir Richard has correctly surmised, I have a lot more than what has been shared here.

It is my belief however, if these first entree's aren't processed and understood, then the "higher level courses" so to speak won't make sense. Such as, “Why he chose to name himself Zodiac?”

Everything I've mentioned is a base level requirement to understanding my further research.

But this will hopefully become clearer in the next few months if all goes well.

Rich

1/5/2025 10:14:28 am

Yes, at the end of the day Ed should go with what he believes. If he thinks this is certainly (or the most likely) meaning behind the Halloween card, then that is what he should stick with. None of us have all the answers.

Rich

1/5/2025 10:17:13 am

And you can link your 2025 videos here whenever you want Ed.

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