ZODIAC CIPHERS
RICHARD GRINELL, COVENTRY, ENGLAND
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"THINGS TO COME" FROM A DEAD MAN'S FINGER

2/28/2025

 
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On March 13th 1971 the Zodiac Killer insinuated his involvement down south when declaring in his Los Angeles letter "I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones, there are a hell of a lot more down there". The question police asked themselves, was whether the Zodiac Killer was blowing hot air, or were there really other victims in Riverside - possibly close to the murder site of Cheri Jo Bates. The police reviewed a case 3.9 miles (by crow) from Terracina Drive and the Riverside City College library on May 13th 1961, mysteriously pointed in that direction by a dead man's finger. The finger of a possible murder victim resting on a bible verse that spoke of "things to come".

Revered Charles Williams (66) was last seen alive driving on Twelfth Street in Riverside on Saturday, May 13th 1961 at approximately 2:55pm. Thirty-five minutes later he was discovered by four Norton AFB airmen in his blood-spattered car at 3:30pm on Canyon Crest Drive, 3/10ths of a mile (1584 feet) north of Alessandro Boulevard in an extremely rural area popular with target shooters and hunters. Found behind the steering wheel of his vehicle with a bible in his lap, Rev. Charles Williams was thought to have been shot at close range by possibly two bullets that entered the left side of his head and burst out the other side. Two .32 caliber casings were found in the car which police hadn't yet determined were from the gun that killed him. There were no signs of robbery (with twenty-seven dollars found in his wallet), and no appearance of a struggle with a potential assailant. The bible on his lap was opened to "The Epistle to the Hebrews" from the New Testament, with his finger either deliberately placed, or accidentally pointing at Chapter 11, Verse 20 reading "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even concerning things to come". Investigators considered a possible murder.  

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Police questioned whether this was an accidental shooting or murder, but unequivocally ruled out suicide. Investigator's found a shattered bottle not far from the victim's car, so speculated that hunters may have been target shooting and accidentally shot Rev. Charles Williams, having not seen his vehicle because of the hilly terrain. An appeal for any hunters in the area at about 3:30pm to come forward failed to generate any response.

​Deputies found a .22 caliber rifle under the front seat of the vehicle and a .38 caliber pistol in the glove compartment, which tallied with information given by his wife, who told police he owned "a couple of guns". Fragments of the bullets found in Williams car were being checked to identify the gun they belonged to, but as of writing, I have been unable to find any results of this examination. If two shots struck the left side of the victim's head (that were connected to the two casings found in the vehicle), an accidental shooting because of errant shots aimed at a bottle, seems unlikely. Especially if the initial assessment by police of a bullet, or bullets entering from close range was correct.  

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Had Rev. Charles Williams parked up in this remote area and was approached by somebody with murder on their mind, had he traveled to this area of Canyon Crest Drive with his eventual murderer in the passenger seat, or was this some freak accident from a stray bullet or two fired from the wilderness? Was his finger purposefully placed on this particular section of the bible to send a sinister message to police, or was he simply reading the bible when shot and his finger fell there accidentally?

The story of his hand being guided over a holy book by a murderer wanting to convey a biblical message to law enforcement, or the victim wanting to impart a final declaration before death, certainly makes for a more intriguing and compelling mystery, bearing in mind police briefly explored the possibility that the "cryptic" Zodiac Killer may have been involved. However, this may be a willingness on the part of investigators to fashion a layer of intrigue into an unexplained death where it isn't required. An eagerness to magnify an already puzzling mystery into divine murder through the guidance of a dead man's finger, so to speak.

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THE DAILY ENTERPRISE, MARCH 16TH 1971
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Taking into account we have two .32 caliber shell casings in the car that were seemingly different to the two weapons owned by Rev. Charles Williams (according to newspaper reports), and early reports mentioned there may have been two shots to the left side of his head at close range, this is inconsistent with a murderer sitting in the passenger seat of the victim's car. On first look, it appears that Rev. Charles Williams was shot through the driver side window (based on the picture of a left hand drive in the top image).

​The location of his death is about a 6 to 10 minute drive from his last known location on Twelfth Street at 2:55pm (depending where on 12th Street he was last seen), so if he traveled directly to the remote location on Canyon Crest Drive, he would have likely been sitting in his vehicle for approximately 25 to 29 minutes before he was found dead by the four airmen. Detectives stated they had no particular reason to think that Zodiac was involved, but the above newspaper report from the Riverside Daily Enterprise on March 16th 1971 was published only three days after the Zodiac Killer's Los Angeles letter claiming more "riverside activity". 

There is little reason to forge a Zodiac connection to the murder of Rev. Charles Williams other than location. If the killer had deliberately placed the finger of the murder victim over the biblical passage of "things to come", a weak link could be created to the April 30th 1967 Bates' letters where the author wrote "there will be more", and the phrase "she went to the slaughter like a lamb" derived from Isaiah 53:7 and typed into the Confession letter on November 29th 1966. But this is undeniably stretching the bounds of reality and could never be proven without identifying the murderer, if indeed this was a wilful and deliberate act.

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JIbberjabber
2/28/2025 01:09:35 am

VERY interesting article Richard. What is the explanation for the 2 bullet jackets found in the vehicle then, could this be from the killers gun (which if so means it had to have been fired inside or leaning into the car to fire at Charles Williams) or if not the killers expended bullet casings then maybe Charles Williams was firing out at someone from within the car, but if so where was his gun?

They could maybe have been from some other hunting / firing a weapon and just kept in the car rolling around on the floor, but I am wondering if they are the jackets from the bullet that killed him then when the article says was "fired at fairly close range" that would have to mean inside the car if the ejected casings were found inside the car?

Bit graphic but is there anything special about a bullet bursting out the side of someones head? why was it not stopped by the brain,even the 9mm bullet fired into Paul Stine's head did not come out the other side.

How can some bullets come out the other side and some be stopped by what is inside the skull, is that down to the bullet, the gun (rifle or pistol?) could the bullet have been modified ie one of these "dum-dum" is it or dumb-dumb, to make it do more damage?

Richard
2/28/2025 01:42:15 am

If a killer was standing outside the vehicle on its left side, I can only think that the killer breached the window line and the casings were ejected inside the vehicle. This didn't happen with the first seven shots at BRS, because 7 casings were found to the right side of the Corvair. Obviously, in the case of Reverend Williams it would depend how far the gun was pushed into the vehicle, what angle the gun was held, and what type of weapon was used. The only other thought I had was a killer sitting in the back seat who was left-handed, who shot Williams to the left side of his head, and then followed up while he was slumped over. This seems like the only other reasonable possibility. But we would be down to a 10% chance of the killer being left-handed - and for some reason - sitting in the back seat of the vehicle while Williams is reading a bible.

The casings could have been from a previous time, but if Williams had sustained two gunshot wounds, that would have been an uncanny coincidence. I don't know whether the word "bursting" from his head on the right side was just dramatic newspaper language or a factual representation of the wounds Jibberjabber. The exact phrase was "burst out the other side", but this was attributed by the newspaper to the Sheriff's Office and not a direct quote from an investigator, so it's difficult to quantify the severity of the exit wounds. Some bullets remain inside the skull and some exit depending on the calibre, velocity and distance fired from. Also what part of the skull on the right side they strike. All these factors are at play.

Richard
2/28/2025 01:48:40 am

The bigger question would be what was he doing in an extremely rural area, parked in a "dumping ground" reading a bible? Was he looking for some solitude and peace while he contemplated the scriptures, or was this location chosen for other reasons we are unaware of?

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 09:52:43 am

I just saw that you wrote here, what I alluded to below, Sir Richard.

It is extremely odd, that a man was parked alone in a secluded area. Much less a Reverend. It is odd.

There are areas that my mind goes to, especially considering how he ended up, that there could be salacious undertones to it.

This could almost be a perfect pretext to commit a murder (Not advocating murder, just "thinking" in terms of systems and pieces moving in a puzzle)

Here's a wildly speculative theory:

What if this Reverend, who would purportedly be a pillar of the community, was involved in something -- let's say, unGodly.

This would present itself as a perversion of Catholicism and Christianity.

But wait a minute.

If that was the case, couldn't someone with a perverted mindset say to themselves -- that person is a violation against God. And then perhaps, they would be worthy of punishment according to the Gospel?

That would almost invert the mindset of the murderer. Making THEM, the messenger. The rightful judge. The executioner.

The murderer would actually be the person who was morally upright in such a scenario, and could then actually see themselves as setting things right. Being more Godly than a perversion of the word of God, and an obvious, supposed pretender to the word. Of GOD.

Just musings. Sometimes my mind wanders. Wonders.

Richard
2/28/2025 10:20:47 am

That is what I was thinking of Ed when I said, was he there for other reasons? It was after all 1961 and things like that wouldn't have gone down too well. Obviously we don't know his proclivities, but it isn't unrealistic that he was intending to meet up with somebody, who considered this a secret that had to be buried at all costs. I won't dwell on it too long because it's sheer speculation and we really have no idea whether he engaged in anything outside of his marriage. He may very well have been a caring husband, driving into the countryside for a bit of spiritual meditation, reading from his beloved bible. I suspect police considered the alternative Ed.

Being a devout Christian, it is routine that you will encounter people down on their luck - and sometimes showing benevolence to these people - can often put you in harms way. As you know Ed, the vast majority of times the killer and victim are known to one another, so if this was the case here, it is either something clandestine and personal, or somehow connected to his work with the church. But of course, this doesn't preclude the random lunatic that appears to be hiding behind every bush.

Johnny
2/28/2025 02:26:00 am

It depends also on the bullets ( soft expansion bullets or hard penetrating ones ) if it goes through or not, but i guess you know this already, just saying.

Richard
2/28/2025 02:54:28 am

Important to point out Johnny, especially because I'm no expert on guns. Maybe somebody from America could add some additional information.

Johnny
2/28/2025 03:06:02 am

Not me either, and i saw you just missed saying it, so... Just one thing, if you dont saw my post about it, i wanted to tell you that Oscar on the old board talked about microfiche. I find it interesting with your JTR theory.

Johnny
2/28/2025 03:15:54 am

Oscar ( Wilde? ) could also be a connection to him finding JTR on microfiche. I have something in my mind with "Hurley" and JTR aswell, but i guess thats just me misremembering things.

Richard
2/28/2025 03:37:30 am

I saw it Johnny - and yes - I cannot see how the Zodiac Killer could realistically store hundreds, if not thousands of newspapers from around the country to generate such phrases as "man is the most dangerous animal of all", irrespective of whether anybody buys the Jack the Ripper connection. A library microfiche database was readily accessible for all his needs. Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't store some newspapers about his own exploits. So I concur with Oscar. For me, this wasn't a killer who always just immediately put pen to paper, he diligently put effort into his communications. This sets him apart from the everyday serial killer, despite being a disgusting human being who harboured no empathy for his victims.

JIbberjabber
2/28/2025 01:47:18 am

That would be interesting if it was a bible "quoting" killer.

Hebrew chapter 11 as a full chapter seems to be about faith from what I can gather.

Lamb to the slaughter supposedly comes from the same old testament Hebrew books and that phrase is very common, but someone who could put their finger (or someone elses) on Chapter 11 Verse 20 to find that little phrase "things to come" would seem to know their bible which has the best part of a million words in it.

Richard
2/28/2025 02:01:02 am

If it were true Jibberjabber, it makes for a fascinating story. A killer murdering for biblical reasons, possibly related to his and Reverend Williams relationship to one another. I would like to have known what part of 12th Street he was last spotted. I'm guessing it was at the area closest to his home. Did the killer travel with Williams, exit the vehicle at some point and walk round to the driver side window, or was he approached by a deranged killer who took the opportunity to kill somebody in a remote location? Possibly a hunter who was disillusioned with targetting animals and decided to switch his focus to humans? Somebody who may have owned a powerful weapon capable of inflicting serious damage. Or were these simply a stray shot or shots from a reckless hunter, and the two casings in the vehicle, as you suggested, from a previous event? It's a strange one Jibberjabber.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 10:28:20 am

If it were me (And thank GOD it's not ;-)

Here's another wildly speculative thought process I might have:

If I was the killer. Then it's possible I would have known this Reverend. Having scoped him out. I would have known his proclivities. Perhaps I would know of something that he likes to "do" in secluded areas in cars where men park by themselves.

I would set in motion a trap, to lure him there.

Here's the kicker in my thinking.

If detectives start to dig, they may eventually find, that this person who was a murder "victim" was actually possibly involved in "crimes" himself. Perhaps crimes of ethics, and morality even more-so. Or perhaps even actual "crime" crimes.

This would make for a very interesting almost Russian doll type situation.

What do I mean?

I mean, I would delight in -- if in conducting the investigation, the law would have to ask deep and probing questions into the Church's activities broadly, and this Reverend's activities in particular.

I might be tickled to find, that the Church may actually start to work against the PD, because they themselves might be "covering up" certain things ala the movie "Spotlight".

See where I'm going with this?

Again, I'm only speculating here. And hopefully not inappropriately.

But this type of thinking would highlight something for me that is a pattern that I've noticed.

Game theory.

Which has applications in intelligence. It's a foundational application in modern artificial intelligence engineering. Games.

Pitting the law (one institution) against another (the Church) and having them actually work against each other, while I exit out the back door due to both being distracted.

This would be considered a success by a master manipulator.

Hopefully that makes sense and is relevant. Just some thoughts. I do hope it does not distract from the discussion ;-)

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 10:10:10 am

Yes @Jibber,

A bible quoting killer is almost a cliché.

The movie Se7en is an allusion to this. The themes are very ripe throughout history.

This brings to my mind a lovely stew of possible motives and themes. And some wonderful conflicts.

A bible quoting killer, could mean that the killer is familiar with the bible. One doesn't usually become familiar with the bible in isolation. There's usually community -- from the word "Communion" with GOD.

But more-so than with god, would be the function of churches. To come together to worship, with other people.

So did this bible quoting killer go to church? Is that more likely than if they decided to do it alone? Reading and studying the bible on their own? Very possible, and may inform the killers mind in a different way.

What do I mean?

Well, are they reading the bible on their own, alone, like in an apartment? Why would they read the bible then? They would have to have some influence, some reason for reading the bible possibly?

Theoretically that's been what the clergy has been for. To interpret the word of GOD for the masses.

See where this is going???

I'm intrigued by all the possibilities that I've only touched on here. Thematically some of it fits for me. But I might need a bit more of something to believe this was directly connected.

But it could be.

I think there's a good chance. I would literally look for the one--more--thing though. Like a strange communication about this specific murder. Or perhaps a diary that he may have left behind. If he did I would be curious to learn more about it.

That's just me.

Johnny
2/28/2025 08:54:15 am

I think someone rode with him in the car, right? The opened bible probably only humiliation and the verse may or may not be something, i would think not.

It could be revenge from a businesspartner or some intrigue at work. Perhaps also a hitchhiker lunatic, but its more uncertain pehaps.

How did the killer get away from this spot? Maybe he had his car parked somewhat hidden and just drove away never to be seen. He could have threatened the priest and forced him to drive to this place. Perhaps it was the priest that wanted to read a little in the bible when he saw his time running out.

Johnny
2/28/2025 08:56:26 am

If suicide, you dont get any insurance money, so this is a thing to hold in mind aswell, especially if the circumstances seem bisarre.,

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 09:36:03 am

I like this idea quite a lot. It is always said "Follow the money". It might be surprising in certain instances where that shows up as a motivation.

Also. Was I the only one that found it odd, that a man was parked in a secluded area alone?

Richard
2/28/2025 10:02:18 am

It's not suicide because [1] They would have checked his hands, and [2] they would have found a discharged weapon.

Johnny
2/28/2025 09:16:02 pm

Ofcourse not, Rick. What i meant was suicide by help of an companion, but i like Eds theory aswell and yours also Rick. Just spitballing some!

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/1/2025 05:42:53 am

@Johnny,

Yup. I understood what you meant.

Someone in his line of work, and in his institution, is under huge societal pressure. Internally and externally.

And there's that whole, ingrained -- sentenced to purgatory thing.

It's quite a mind trap. No way out.

Richard
3/1/2025 07:12:37 am

I understand Johnny, my bad.

Johnny
2/28/2025 09:14:44 am

So if he had cancer or something, its always a possibility with a staged crime scene like this. He planned with someone else to help him expire. The bible would make me somewhat suspicious, and ofcourse 2 bullets, because you cant do that yourself. But it is a very clean way to fool the insurance company aswell, because the crime scene is outside and if the companion gets away without being seen,
its better to do it this way then overly complicated arrangements.

Ofcourse the companion could have come in a separate car, so the police cant find any proof of him inside the priests car.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 09:42:32 am

I like the sophistication of the thinking here. I would more think that someone could envision a scheme that accrues to them singularly though. Meaning only one person would benefit . A kind of mastermind.

In other words, collecting the money from a non-suicide, suicide, would still be problematic for those that would collect it. Any detective worth their salt would be, by default ,almost looking for that. Unless they were perhaps on the take themselves. Not uncommon for those times I'm sure.

Other theories could involve perhaps (Murder for hire). Possible complications also could be with the "Catholic Church". It's complicated history with "secrets", misogyny, and pedophilia.

It gets complicated pretty fast.

Richard
2/28/2025 10:31:02 am

It would have helped if we knew which part of 12th St he was spotted. I am assuming he was alone in his vehicle, otherwise the eyewitness would have mentioned this to police and it would likely have been in the newspaper.

Richard
2/28/2025 10:41:09 am

This being the case, the two likeliest scenarios to what happened that day was [1] A completely random killer who just saw his vehicle and decided upon murder, or [2] A pre-planned meeting out of the way of prying eyes. Charles Williams may have arrived early and sat reading his bible to pass the time. The fact that his bible was open may suggest he wasn't engaged in conversation before his murder. He could have been completely blindsided by his killer, whether known or not. He slumps to the right side and his hand drops onto the open page. But did he select this particular epistle to read because it had some relevance to what was going on with his life at the time?

JIbberjabber
2/28/2025 11:38:46 am

Interestingly there is no Alessandro Rd or Canyon Crescent Rd in Riverside, it is Alessandro Boulevard and Canyon Crescent Boulevard - strange the newspapers would get that wrong unless they are using the local term. I am not exactly sure of the area, but it could be the Sycamore Canyon Park in the link below, which is described as a nature reserve. The article calls it a "dumping ground" so it could be 1 particular part of a larger expanse but it cant be completely out of the way or else what the 4 airmen who found the body doing there? Maybe just a large unclaimed part of the city at the time, but I am also thinking possible lovers lane for whoever and whatever proclivities they wanted to get up to


https://riversideca.gov/athomeinriverside/neighborhoods-sycamorecanyonpark.asp

JIbberjabber
2/28/2025 10:12:11 pm

Annoyingly the article does not even make it clear if the drivers window was up or down. It would have to be down or up with a bullet hole through it as if it was up with no bullet hole through it then that would need explanation. a good crime scene drawing would have helped, i would think it is standard police procedure to create them but i would like to know what direction/orientation the car was at, any other foot prints,tyre tracks, how far from the road ie could a passing car have seen the reverend's vehicle, how far to the nearest houses - today the google maps images show a lot of houses to the west of the wasteground, if they were there at the time then someone could have heard a shot or shots. what was the elevation like ie where could a stray bullet have even come from if it was just a hunting accident. what is the chance a stray bullet would hit someone sitting in a car but also come through a window - just at the right height to hit a person sitting in a car, if it hit him on his left side then was that side facing across the open ground so in theory a stray bullet could have came from that general direction - there is what looks like blood perhaps on the inside windscreen / passenger side door so I am thinking the bullet came directly from the left, or did it possibly come from behind and travelled through the rear windscreen or body of the car? bizarre there are no other articles available other than the above with this many unanswered questions. happening during the day is also maybe a bit unusual

Richard
3/1/2025 01:19:22 am

If he was simply parked alongside Canyon Crest Drive one would expect his vehicle to be facing south if a stray bullet came from the "hilly" east side. With a close-quarter attack it makes no difference. But according to the newspapers the vehicle was found in a "dumping ground", which is where people fly-tip rubbish and waste material. There are much nicer spots along that road to park up, so why would you choose a filthy "dumping fround" to read a bible. Unless it was a known and definable location known by two people to briefly meet up before driving elsewhere.

I am assuming the window was down because we have been given no details of busted windows, but yes, an errant bullet just happening to pass through the window into his head, while not impossible, seems the least obvious answer. Bearing in mind the two casings on the bed of the vehicle. I am going to try and identify where the likely dumping ground was, despite the fact it may not exist today in 2025.

Richard
3/1/2025 01:40:38 am

This is the nearest turn off 3/4 mile from Alessandro Boulevard, ideal for dumping rubbish away from the road. The houses in that area such a Via Vista Drive and Chekhov Drive hadn't been built. This area was much more rural in 1961, so an area such as this wouldn't have nearby eyewitnesses and earwitnesses. Click my name to view. Parked on the dirt road heading south could have resulted in police believing a stray bullet may have come from the hillside to the east and entered through the left window. This is the only logical place closest to 3/4 mile. Of course, the terrain has massively changed in 64 years.

Richard link
3/1/2025 01:42:24 am

Sorry, here is the link on Google Maps.

Richard
3/1/2025 02:02:39 am

I think I have found the "dumping site" by Alessandro Boulevard. It was a quarry. I've added a newspaper clipping to the article.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/1/2025 05:44:00 am

A quarry you say??? Hmmmm.

What are the chances?

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 03:21:07 am

That "dumping ground" is not described in detail. If people throw there just their nonorganic garbage away then okay...otherwise who would park, even roll down the windows, in the middle of a stinky dump site for a pause or to read a book? Bad smell is not an invitation for anykind of any pause...except the name would be Bundy :)

Richard
3/1/2025 04:01:06 am

I have corrected the article because I misread the newspapers, thinking that the crime was 3/4 mile north of Alessandro Boulevard when it was actually 3/10ths of a mile. The quarry of 16 acres if square shaped would be 835 X 835 feet, but could easily have measured 450 X 1500 feet in length to measure 16 acres. A distance of 3/10th mile to the crime scene from Alessandro Boulevard (where the quarry was) is 1584 feet, so would be just beyond the quarry, or dumping ground in 1961. ie: "at a dumping ground".

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 04:49:07 am

All good Rich, i hoped the newspaper articles would give some descriptions if there was any bad smell - unfortunately they talk only about 'eye-sore'...but I need confirmation if it had 'nose-sore' too :)

Why?

Because how likely is it the priest would have stopped there to read his bible? Especially with windows down and all that pestilence around him? I can't proove there was a bad smell, but if i could...

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 04:51:13 am

Btw, which PD was it again where it was claimed CJB's case was their only unsolved case ever (that can only mean up to 1966 and Cheri's murder). Yet our Rich here came up with this one around the corner, 1961 was it, right!? Just like that! Daam, if I could only remember that PD's name...i've read it 1.000 times from 1.000 different sources over the past 20+ years. It must be my mind it playing tricks on me, and it was some other case and/or PD where I got all those claims from. Oh well, what time can do to ones body, mind and soul. Gene Hackman died a bit mysteriously if you ask me, remember him from all those cult movies from the 70's? The other day I saw a picture of him, 96 years old, looked like a zombie - that's time, it's always about time.

Richard
3/1/2025 06:11:24 am

I have looked at different maps to see the exact boundary of Riverside, but housing on Canyon Crest Drive is labelled as Riverside in Riverside County, so if police have said that they are wrong.

Absolute shame about Gene Hackman, two Oscars and many great films. He truly was a fantastic actor. But his death, that of his wife (and dog) is a really strange one. Clearly they weren't shot or stabbed, with no apparent outward signs of trauma. There also doesn't seem to be any signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. Because of the three types of pills found by her body I suspect she committed suicide. The dog may have accidentally ingested some, if some were scattered on the floor or counter. The only other question is did Gene Hackman's system have the same medication in it, opening up the possibility, that because of failing health, he wilfully took an overdose (or not) and his wife took her own life briefly after. It's difficult to say Zodcom, but I suspect the pills play a big part.

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 09:33:50 am

Yup, I am very certain RPD claimed since the 60's, precisely that is after 1966 when CJB was murdered, that would be their one and only unsolved case...again, pre 66 that has to be. If Doug (Oswell) or MikeR are here on your MB they can verify that. I only hope I didn't somehow Graysmithed myself with that info, that would be pretty embarrising for me:)

Gene Hackman was one of my favourites as an actor, i could name them all up, that entire 70s entourage. Never ever again we got such good and deep movies and actors, IMO. I only hope he did it by his free will. It would be a sad disgrace if any sort of foul play was involved.

RIP Gene, thank you for your outstanding art.

Now, since I am already so emotional... :)



EXCELLENT WORK/DIGGING RICH!
(Forgot to give immediately credit bcoz as soon I saw his 'priest' article and that it was from Riverside...my head started to spin a bit)

Rubislaw32 link
3/1/2025 11:17:23 am

Christopher Reeve meeting Gene Hackman on the set of Superman, for the first time:

Reeve: '' Hi Gene - whatever attracted you to playing Lex Luthor, then ?''

Hackman: ''Apart from the $2 million for three weeks work ?''

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/2/2025 06:55:25 am

Apparently Clint Hill, famed secret service agent to JFK while he was down in Texas for that fateful day, has also died.

Rubislaw32 link
3/2/2025 09:07:53 am

Oh yes, EdEdwardsCiphers - I see that now - the agent who jumped on JFK's limo to spare Jackie Kennedy injuring herself.

More usually associated with being Jackie's personal bodyguard.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/2/2025 07:03:00 pm

Yes.

It's tangential of course, but we know of his connection to this case through convoluted means, and possibly more than 6 -- degrees of separation.

Melvin Belli became famous for defending Jack Ruby. Himself the murderer of Lee -- Harvey Oswald. The infamous Camelot killer.

As you mentioned, Clint's connection originally to JFK, grew then to Jacqueline.

A tenuous connection I know. But who knows, perhaps we may find, in time, it may be more relevant than we can see at first glance.

Interestingly enough, both Jacqueline and Clint would go on to receive strange and taunting letters later on.

Clint himself, (strange ones), about him being a failure in protecting JFK. It seems that trolling and taunting, of the worst kind, was not invented only in the internet age.

Cold comfort for our Camelot Clan.

Rubislaw32 link
3/3/2025 06:03:27 am

You certainly make an interesting point, EdEdwardsCiphers. While most Zodiac followers (understandably) scour for signs of Zodiac as a killer, pre-Lake Herman Road, I have always been more interested in the possible evolution of the Zodiac as a letter-writer.

There is an often-touted letter to the Hollywood Reporter journal, ''doing the rounds'' from 1959, as a candidate. I think that the Zodiac did get ''quite busy'' as a letter-writer to ''notables'' - but not necessarily on the basis of purveying menace and threat.

There is a letter in the Joseph Kennedy Snr FBI Files (don't have a reference, offhand) - which could well be from the Zodiac to Joseph Snr, offering what seems to be genuine sympathy, in the wake of JFK's assassination. So, that would be from 1964.

The Zodiac may have started off as a letter-writer, simply to ''touch'' well-known figures. But it all went ''downhill'', in the end.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/4/2025 04:57:05 pm

@Rubi,

It's unknown if the Zodiac did write to other notables. It may lead one down the road that we discussed about "tone".

Which is all but impossible to ascribe to someone. Or to use a cryptographic term -- to authenticate, that it was them, and would prove it.

To raise the bar higher than "Being able to detect the tone of the Zodiac", one would need some other kind of mechanism.

However, any mechanism other than tone, or say, an almost airtight handwriting analysis. Would have to almost depend on, nee rely on, the Zodiac himself, intentionally leaving behind a breadcrumb or two.

A sort of clue. A signature for example. This could even be something that would connect him -- thematically.

Alas, this would be akin to figuring out a kind of puzzle. Or a kind of cryptogram.

One would almost have to hope, that the Zodiac would understand that he would have had this "problem" of authentication.

Luckily for him, this is all, cryptography. And cryptography provides for that very thing.

Now all we would need, is for someone to figure out if such a thing exists.

We'll have to wait and see if something like this could even happen, in our lifetime ;-)

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 12:32:25 pm

Gene did, like the other 70s stars too, also a few dozens of crapy movies during their long careers. So because of that he was then not such a great artist in your opinion...or, do you criticize he did it highlikely just for the money and sofor...again...meh...there goes your artist :))

what do you think about that strange riverside case Rich posted today? Klaro, nothing is confirmed, alot of possible problems could arise, like at first it looked very promising but then the more and more we looked at it...naagh

For me all those other non-canonical cases so far were not some hits...maybe that with taxi driver davis could be special but the overall vibe (for me) is rather...meh.

Now the new one from today...
How many murdered priest cases do we have inside the past 100 years? Eeeeeextremely rare. Zodiac would love something like that - rare weird cases nobody ever paid attention about.

Then there are those religion/paganism links - his stuff about afterlife, paradice, exorcism, dark hood like in the midages, fascination with Mt.Diablo and other loose links to his "artwork" which highlikely were not even formed as of 61. Then again, in 61 he was not even Zodiac but maybe just an weird young Steven without a mask but with a gun, no brand name yet but the same psyche, just younger:)

Highlikely this is all just wishfull thinking and it has noting to do with Z. Then again, he said check out Riverside, down there are more...and even if that is rather one of his typical ruse games...it still stands out as a case and is indeed down in Riverside...and nobody in 55+ years came to the idea one could look up Riverside Library for strange looking cases in newspapers - not even that almighty chronic asshole Everly ]8~)

Rubislaw32 link
3/1/2025 01:18:09 pm

What I can say on the subject of Gene Hackman is, that he is one of my most favorite actors of all time. I don't believe he ever put in a bad performance. And, there was always this feeling of ''what is he going to do next ?''. A sort of ''benevolent menace'', if you will.

A friend of mine was a TV sound man, and spent a whole day following Gene around at a Pro-celebrity golf tournament at St Andrews, Fife. He said it was one of his most enjoyable days ever. Gene was an entirely down-to-earth person - no ''airs or graces'', and very chatty & engaging. Always showing genuine interest in the person he was talking to.

There'll never be another Gene Hackman.

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 01:44:19 pm

Oh good, you liked him too...i misunderstood your dialog post completely :) Yes, very down to earth and good person/personality. Now, since that perhaps tragic end, i mean its anyway tragic that he is not more, but if it was forced then its a greater tragic...some contacts wrote me yesterday they do not wonder about that strange death..."this is hollywood, they are all kinky and into weird shit"

I just replied to them: "No, not Gene"

Rubislaw32 link
3/1/2025 02:19:18 pm

Yes, its the ''dog thing'' that adds to the mystery, ZODCOM.

He and his wife had three dogs. Two found alive, wandering around the property. One dog dead, close in proximity to Gene' s wife.

Both he and his wife are now estimated to have been dead for 10 days. Toxicology reports indicate that carbon monoxide was not involved. If any injuries sustained by Gene, then they are believed to have been from falling.

The mystery certainly isn't over yet.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/1/2025 02:48:29 pm

There are other Religious/Paganism links also that I feel are not only overlooked, they're not understood.

The Zodiac "Symbol" is the same as the Celtic Cross. Mostly now seen at gravesites. The Celtic Cross is now also very much accepted as a hate symbol. As noted on the website of the AntiDefamation league. That is, if you follow that stuff.

There's also the wording of "ChristMass" and of course, the nod to "Halloween" with the famous card which has become synonymous with the Zodiac case.

I would think there's a strong case to be made for Religious and Pagan links. What could be more paganistic, than to murder clergy?

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 12:52:41 pm

Edit:
THE DAILY ENTERPRISE, MARCH 16TH 1971
(hehehehe, overlooked it, so if daily checked old newspapers prior 66 then Everly got that 'priest' info for sure too...also in 71)

ZODCOM
3/1/2025 01:34:53 pm

Rich, where can i find more about this here:

"yet the Sacramento murders on April 22nd 1986 have been linked to the Zodiac Killer since 2013, but have essentially been ignored, gathering dust to this day."

This too is brandnew for me, i'm some 27 years on TZC, on and off, mostly off :) But i never ever heard about some 1986 cases.

Or i should better ask: "What is the main page to those cases and where can i find it on your site?"

Richard link
3/1/2025 04:53:15 pm

They are on about this, click the link in my name.

ZODCOM
3/2/2025 01:00:20 am

thanks mate

Rubislaw32 link
3/2/2025 01:18:26 am

Interesting to look back (7 years ?), Richard, to the comments section.

The only thing I would revise, myself, since is - that the Zodiac may have had regular contact with Sacramento, on account of using the ''new'' International Airport. Opened in October 1967.

There is a tendency, I think, to consider the Zodiac in terms of San Francisco International Airport, if traveling beyond a realistic car drive. But, Sacramento was ''state of the art'' for that time - and not much more than an hour's drive from Vallejo, ''off peak'' times.

I had inferred that the Zodiac may have written his Fairfield letters, just as an example, in a Sacramento hotel, running out of some basic stationery. But, it may just be that he was ''away'', having used Sacramento International Airport.

If the Zodiac was an ''at least part-time'' Vallejo vicinity resident, then using Sacramento for air travel, makes greater convenience sense, than San Francisco.

Richard
3/2/2025 09:40:43 am

Quite possibly Rubi, with the Fairfield letter on December 16th threatening to kill 9 cops in Sacramento, which was more than any other city he identified. The Zodiac may have been referring to the future, but it appears he highlighted Sacramento as the place he was going to commit his dastardly deeds the most. Although he didn't follow up these threats, Sacramento was in the forefront of his mind - and unlikely a coincidence that he mailed the Day-by-day forecast for Cancer from Sacramento to the Sacramento Bee just 6 days earlier. If the December 10th communication wasn't Zodiac, then it's unusual that he brings up Sacramento inside of one week, especially when the December 10th communication hadn't been released to the public. The 2nd Fairfield letter coming so soon after, with Sacramento the main focus of both, certainly points to one individual.

Rubislaw32 link
3/2/2025 10:53:16 am

Good to hear your thoughts on a Sacramento connection, Richard.

The Nancy Bennallack case officially solved two and a half years ago, and more recently, persuasive statements indicating that Placer County cold case unit are on to the Judith Hakari case, just over a year ago - lead one to believe that these two cases haven't been far from CA DOJ's thoughts in the last 10 years, underpinned by the Zodiac case.

ZODCOM
3/3/2025 02:29:08 pm

You can bet he had Sacramento always on his mind, since it was more or less their secret ZHQ (for LE). Sacramento was back then a pearl (is it still today?) and kind of insider tip if someone prefered to avoid overcrowded dirty and loud citys like Frisco + LA but also did not wanted to end up in some godforgotten CA villages.

Imagine only the irony if he lived in Sacramento during his 'campaign', just a few blocks away of his arch-enemies.

ZODCOM
3/3/2025 06:45:22 pm

Life in Sacramento - 1950
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh29Jy3DEqM

1950s Color photos of Sacramento - Time Capsule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JLETgM8js

Sacramento City Scenes, 1953
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=406ysMsY22U

1960's Sacramento, Sutter's Fort, Reno, Lake Tahoe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRnK-bK1O2w

SACRAMENTO TEEN FAIR 1965
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQmmyorKBZU

Sacramento Public Market - ca. 1970
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxPLut8_1Gc

Report to the People - 1974
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h4_k_9OkXc

Sacramento Aerials - ca. 1978
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2p6xa9i0Kg

ZODCOM
3/3/2025 06:56:46 pm

"IBM had a significant presence in Sacramento in the 1960s, contributing to operations research and management science advancements. During this period, IBM Europe was active in optimization solver development and applications of optimization in industry and government, including the development of the Mathematical Programming System Extended (MPSX) solver, which was created in IBM's White Plains facility in the late 1960s."

(Source, BRAVE Browser AI)


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