ZODIAC CIPHERS
RICHARD GRINELL, COVENTRY, ENGLAND
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RAY GRANT'S ROAMING CHEVROLET IMPALA

10/4/2024

 
PictureDavid Faraday 1961 Rambler
The Lake Herman Road presence on December 20th 1968 of Robert Connelly (27), Frank Gasser (69) and Bingo George Wesner (33) can be confirmed by the testimony of each. Raccoon hunters, Robert Connelly and Frank Gasser saw Bingo Wesner at the Lake Herman Road turnout and vice versa. Robert Connelly stated that "when they arrived there at 9:00pm a white 4-door hardtop, a 1959 or 1960 Impala, was parked there, and also, a truck coming out of the gate". Bingo Wesner stated "that when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by". 

However, Bingo Wesner was also quoted as saying that "last night he was checking his sheep at approximately 10:00pm (east of the Benicia Pumping Station) and he observed a white Chevrolet Impala Sedan, parked by the south fence of the entrance to the pumping station. He also observed a red Ford pick-up with wood side boards in the area (the pick-up was later identified as the one Frank Gasser and Robert Connelly were riding in)".

PictureErmine white 1960 Chevrolet Impala. The color can vary.
The question has always been, did Robert Connelly or Bingo Wesner get their time wrong by a whole hour, and the two statements of "saw the red pick-up truck go by" and "observed a red Ford pick-up with wood side boards in the area", had been the same sighting by the turnout?. Or had Bingo Wesner seen the red pick-up truck pass the turnout, and later saw it parked "in the area" by the entrance of the Marshall Ranch? It would be important to qualify these ambiguous statements, because it would mean we either have a Chevrolet Impala seen at the turnout only once at either 9pm or 10pm, or twice at both 9pm and 10pm.

​The testimony of William Crow, who stated he was in the turnout with his girlfriend between 9:30pm and 10pm, was unable to be confirmed by an impartial eyewitness, so we cannot be certain whether his version of events are correct. Regardless, in a much later statement he claimed "I never told the sheriff who interviewed me that the car I encountered was a Valiant. As I recall, as I was attempting to describe the car and the sheriff came up with a “Valiant”. In the years that have passed, when I have shared the events of that night, I have described the car as a four-door light-colored Chevy.  I could not see the passenger seat, but the driver was a man with short hair and glasses. I did not see his specific facial features". His earlier statement on December 22nd 1968 described two subjects "who were both Caucasians".

PictureRay Grant, Zodiac researcher
Ray Grant, long-time Zodiac researcher, points out that the Helen Axe statement may be erroneous. Miss Axe claimed that the Faraday Rambler was facing south towards the gate when she passed the turnout at 10:15pm, but when she returned 15 minutes later it had turned around. However, she only reported this after reading the newspaper reports, so may have convinced herself that the light-colored Chevrolet Impala she saw facing gate #10 was actually the Rambler.

​If Ray Grant is correct that Robert Connelly, Frank Gasser and Bingo Wesner saw the empty white Chevrolet Impala facing south towards the gate at 10pm, then it is extremely noteworthy that Helen Axe saw a tan-colored vehicle also facing the gate only 15 minutes later (that she believed to be the Rambler). The 1959/1960 Chevrolet Impala was made in "ermine white", which when viewed in the headlights of Bingo Wesner exiting gate #10, would have looked off white, but when viewed in darkness, such as by Michael Mageau at Blue Rock Springs, it would have appeared tan-colored or light to medium brown (which is how he described the vehicle). Therefore, if Helen Axe saw an "ermine white" Chevrolet in the turnout in darkness, she could have easily mistaken it for tan-colored or light brown, just like the Rambler. The 1961 Faraday Rambler was two tone, dark tan over light tan. Ray Grant has stated that Frank Gasser had approached the Chevrolet Impala in the turnout and illuminated it with a flashlight (so would have moticed its white color). He and Robert Connelly, after they parked up at the Marshall Ranch about 10pm, had walked by Sulphur Springs Creek and the turnout on their way towards Benicia Pumping Station and the Dotta Ranch for a spot of raccoon hunting..

Picture
At approximately 10:30pm, a 14-year-old male called "Stan" and his friend spotted what they described as a 1963 blue Chevrolet Impala with two occupants exiting Lake Herman Road and entering Columbus Parkway. The front end characteristics of a 1963 Chevrolet Impala can be compared to a 1960 Chevrolet Impala below. The approximate time of 10:30pm given by Helen Axe when she last saw a vehicle in the Lake Herman Road turnout and "Stan" at Columbus Parkway, could be shifted 5 minutes either way to allow the same vehicle to make this journey. But how does an "ermine white" Chevrolet Impala become blue in 5 minutes? 
Picture
By the mid-20th century, increasing motorization necessitated better illumination, particularly in business districts where there was more mixing of cars and pedestrians, as well as along commercial thoroughfares. Streets needed to be illuminated more evenly, and a minimum level of lighting needed to be maintained throughout the night. Street lighting became a major expense for US cities, which sought to control costs in various ways. From the point of view of a municipal lighting department, the fact that incandescent lamps "radiate with very low efficiency, producing relatively little light at visible wavelengths", made them less and less attractive for public street lighting. Mercury vapor streetlights started to be used more widely in the United States after 1950, mainly due to their cost efficiency. By then, the lifespan of mercury vapor lamps had been extended to 16,000 hours, and they could provide up to 40 lumens per watt, whereas incandescent lamps could only deliver 16 to 21 lumens. I must confess, I don't know if Columbus Parkway was illuminated by Mercury Vapor streetlights in 1968, but "ermine white" under these conditions takes on a blue tinge. Wikipedia. 

​So was the Zodiac Killer (or Zodiac Killers) driving an "ermine white" Chevrolet Impala around on December 20th 1968, cruising between Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs Park looking for victims, the latter which he would murder for a third time just over 6 months later?

RAY GRANT'S ROBERT CONNELLY TIMELINE
THE CONNELLY AND GASSER SIGHTING OF THE CHEVROLET IMPALA WAS 9PM

HUNTING BY THE BENICIA PUMPING STATION
​
CONNELLY AND GASSER NEVER SAW WESNER
WAS THE HELEN AXE SIGHTING WRONG?

Picture
Johnny
10/4/2024 10:43:49 am

I wanted some other poster to begin posting this time, but i got so interested in how you put it, that both the younger boys and W. Crow ( the first time he got interviewed ) told that they saw 2 people in the car ( probably the same car? ).

Richard
10/4/2024 11:00:57 am

Absolutely, plays into the argument of two participants in the double murder at Lake Herman Road. Not convinced myself, but I think it's only fair to present the possibility. Two could have began the Zodiac crimes and only one continued. I still heavily lean towards one killer, but nothing would surprise me anymore. There are many "ermine white" vehicles online that just look plain white and don't change colour under dim lighting, so the Zodiac (or Zodiacs) would have to be in the version that looks off white, like the examples in the article. These go noticeably browner in low level lighting.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 12:51:24 pm

I have to say I have never read up too much on these details because I always found them confusing,but I have reached for my "just the facts" book and I am reading the witness statements and I am seeing things I have not appreciated before. On page 16 the second car in the turnout described as "witness observed dark car, lacking in chrome. Not large & not compact". The name of the witness who gave this statement is not given but I had always assumed this was what James Owen described. However Owen's witness testimony is on pages 27 & 29 and he states he did not notice anything about the second car. Also the residence of the first witness is given as Vallejo PO box 477, whereas Owen's address is twice listed as 1735 (redacted) drive Vallejo. I am wondering who is the witness that saw the dark car lacking chrome and gave the address PO Box 477 Vallejo?

Richard
10/4/2024 01:12:13 pm

It was James Owen, but his "compact" and "lacking in chrome" description seemed like he was comparing it to the Rambler.

Richard
10/4/2024 01:13:44 pm

Meant "not large & not compact"

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 01:00:53 pm

James Owen described the Rambler as "neutral" in colour, Stella Madeiros described it as "grayish". I have to say on the photo on this site it looks white, does not look 2 tone brown. So for what it is worth these cars were certainty registering as having different colours when viewed in car head lights.

Richard
10/4/2024 01:17:53 pm

I coloured that as best I could, but this was the Rambler in daylight.

Richard
10/4/2024 01:30:36 pm

In pitch darkness with limited headlight illuminaton, the Rambler would look deeper in colour. A neutral color is a muted shade that lacks an intense hue and can be used as a background for other colors. Neutral colors can range from light, like cream and white, to dark, like chocolate or charcoal. Some examples of neutral colors include: beige, taupe, gray, cream, brown, black, and white.

Richard
10/4/2024 01:32:06 pm

https://www.google.com/search?q=neutral%22+in+colour%2C&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 01:04:17 pm

Not sure if I am reading this right but it seems that it is the 2 raccoon hunters who described the Rambler switching position,on pages 37 & 38. They describe it as "light coloured". Is it Gasser & Connolly that said the Rambler switched positions, I always thought it was one of the female witnesses?

Richard
10/4/2024 01:22:34 pm

Robert Connelly only described the Rambler in one position, facing the gate on the west bank.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 01:34:49 pm

The next statement says "it was parked southwest of where we finally found the car" does that mean Connolly was mistaken or that the car moved after he saw it? He gives a second interview 5 days later and Insists the car was on the bank,the report says "that would be the Southside". This is why I am confused, did he see the Rambler in a different position to where it was found or are you saying he was wrong about seeing the Rambler? Also strangely Stella Madeiros address is given as PO Box 477 in Vallejo, so have they attributed James Owen's statement to her or is she just describing the Rambler? She never saw the second car did she?

Richard
10/4/2024 01:52:53 pm

Robert Connelly in his first statement to police on December 21st 1968 was recorded as "a light colored 1960 Rambler S/W that was parked at the gate. It was parked southwest of where we finally found the car. This discrepancy wasn't noted at first." In his second interview on December 26th 1968 "Connelly insists that the Rambler was parked on the bank. That would be the south side. He did not see any person in the car.".

It was police that were quoting Connelly.on the 21st, about him saying that the Rambler was parked at the gate (facing it on the west bank). The police continued by saying it was parked south and west from the position they ultimately found the Rambler. Connelly never changed his story from statement 1 to 2.

Richard
10/4/2024 01:57:46 pm

The discrepancy police were talking about was that Connelly's position of the Rambler differed from al the other eyewitnesses ie Medeiros, Owen and the Your's.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 01:09:45 pm

Page 47 has Helen (redacted) also saying the Rambler was spotted in 2 different positions. If this is 2 independent witnesses saying the Rambler switched positions does it make it more likely it did? Is it possible Helen (redacted) and Gasser & Connolly could mistake the Chevy Impala for the Rambler??

Richard
10/4/2024 01:25:07 pm

Helen Axe said the Rambler was facing the gate at 10:15pm, but had turned around by 10:30pm. Are you using the book to detail the pages?

Richard
10/4/2024 01:26:22 pm

The numbers don't match the online pages on Voigt's site.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 01:45:28 pm

According to what I am reading, Helen Axe says she saw Faraday & Jensen in the car so I think Ray Grant is wrong when he says she is erroneous. If he is saying she mistook the Chevy Impala for the Rambler then there would also have had to be a boy and a girl sitting in the Impala to get it wrong, or she intentionally lied? Interview was 23rd December 11:55 am. Interestingly it says they would phone her boyfriend to confirm if he saw the Rambler / Rambler change position but there is no follow up report whether they ever did or not. Do we know if the boyfriend corroborated what she said about it being the Rambler that changed position?

Richard
10/4/2024 02:07:21 pm

What he is saying is that she saw what she wanted to see. As you said, it was either other people or she lied. I suppose once she has convinced herself it was the Rambler, Betty Lou and David have to be the occupants in her mind. I haven't heard of any follow up with the sailor boyfriend.

Johnny
10/4/2024 01:48:55 pm

But you read the Voigt book, right Jibby?

Johnny
10/4/2024 01:53:54 pm

Ofcourse you do, you say so, i shall try to find my copy also...

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 02:39:11 pm

Yep johnny I always try to find something in a book to quote. Not that everything in print is ever correct! Let's just say for the sake of argument the Rambler did move, why would it do that? Was this mysterious second car bothering them (did a car pull up next to them then drive off only to reappear a short time later like at Blue Rock Springs) did David think he could have less cars seeing them if he switched sides (maybe more people were heading towards Vallejo than away from it) or did another vehicle come through the gate and the Rambler was in the way and had to move?

Johnny
10/4/2024 02:14:29 pm

When im listening to you, i see "the zodiac speaking" documentary at the same time, and i notice what Brian saying about him and Cecilia, and i also remember that Voigt said that he thinks they become intimate at Beryessa. I from there have Jeromes theory fresh in mind.

I wonder if Cecilias then boyfriend got checked up?

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 02:17:19 pm

Is Robert Connolly's testimony generally doubted then? He was interviewed twice it seems because of that discrepancy. What I find interesting is in the first interview he (or they ie Gasser & Connolly) describe seeing both the Rambler and the Impala, if they never observed them together at the same time then it seems they can tell them apart, but to be mistaken about the position of the Rambler Connolly has to get his Rambler and his Impala mixed up when he sees one of the cars later in a different position. Would he mix them up if he had already identified them both previously? Is it not possible Connolly and Helen Axe did see the Rambler in 2 different positions and the other witnesses are wrong? I am just playing devils advocate. Gasser & Connolly were out the longest. Interestingly Bingo Wesner seems to have recognized the white Chevy Impala,what light was he observing it by?

Richard
10/4/2024 02:39:21 pm

Connelly stated he saw the Impala a 9pm, but because of the ambiguous nature of the police report Ray thinks it was 10pm. I both statements when he said they left the Marshall Ranch at 11:05pm, he says both times the Rambler was on the west bank facing the gate. The police did doubt his recollection because it didn't match the other 3 eyewitnesses that night. Connelly was the last person to see the Rambler in the turnout before Zodiac arrived, which is why I say that there is a good chance Zodiac arrived when the Rambler was on the west bank and somehow ushered it over to the east side, before pulling to the right of the Rambler. This would have been what James Owen saw. But why do we assume when Zodiac arrived the Rambler was on the east bank when this wasn't the last position it was seen when it was alone in the turnout. The Impala was never seen together with the Rambler (it may have been parked alongside the Rambler when Owen passed but we can't know for certain). Bingo Wesner came out the gate, so his headlights would have shone directly on the Impala.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 02:30:16 pm

I am just thinking, colour and lighting aside how likely is it someone could confuse a Rambler Station wagon with a Chevrolet Impala? I have just looked at some pictures and they are pretty different in shape, one is a big square box the other has the long boot. I don't know, being the common cars of the day if Robert Connolly saw these cars from the side I have to think he would be able to tell them apart. But I could be wrong.

Richard
10/4/2024 02:47:16 pm

The comparison between the Rambler and Impala is only relevant to Helen Axe. Did she claim she saw the Rambler but it was the Impala. That is the question Ray is asking. Was she convincing herself it was the Rambler and was she knowledgeable about cars.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 02:53:34 pm

But is Connolly not also saying he saw the Rambler in a different position to where the police found it, so does that not mean we have to explain how they both got their Ramblers and Impalas mixed up?

Richard
10/4/2024 03:30:38 pm

Neither the police or Connelly got the Rambler and Impala mixed up. Connelly & Gasser, when they arrived that night, saw the Impala and Wesner coming through the gate at 9pm (Ray says 10pm because when Wesner came out of the gate he saw the Impala and the red pick up truck in the area). Believed to be Connelly & Gasser arriving that night. That is effectively the end of that, other than Ray saying Gasser shone a torch into the Impala. Now forget the Impala.

At 11:05pm Connelly & Gasses head home. When they pass the turnout they see only the Rambler on the west bank (given in 2 statements). Police questioned this because every other eyewitness placed the Rambler by the east bank and this is where the police said they found the Rambler. That is it.

Scott Norton
10/4/2024 02:39:18 pm

My takeaway from this confusing series of witness statements from the Yours, Stella Borges, Bingo Wesner, Crow, et. al is that at the very least a then-older off white Chevy Impala is a vehicle of interest in both Lake Herman and Blue Rock.

General Motors produced around 5 million Impalas during model years 1961-1966 for the US market (see for example this link https://www.348-409.com/production.html#:~:text=%20%20%20Model%20%20%201958%20,%20%20%20%2015%20more%20rows%20). A rough, often used figure is that 10%--about 500,000--of those would be destined for a California sale and registration. From there one would have two options to further cleave the number:

1. The color.
2. The county of registration.

By further estimate you'd have about 80,000 vehicles in the Bay Area and probably no more than 5,000-10,000 in the Solano and Napa area. Just wondering if registration data could be obtained and each entry then be researched via crowd sourcing and further limiting factors (like age of the registrant, etc.).

Johnny
10/4/2024 02:43:22 pm

Yes, and that is one of the surest and best leads in the case no doubt.

Richard
10/4/2024 02:53:49 pm

Great information Scott. Either Zodiac switched vehicles between LHR and BRS or he was driving the same vehicle, which is why I'm exploring what an "ermine white" colour would look like at BRS, and why Zodiac was seemingly determined to say that the negro male told police his car was brown. It may have been white (with a slight brown hue). ie: ermine white that an Impala was manufactured in.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 02:50:09 pm

Absolutely, this white Chevy Impala has never been adequately explained and I do find it curious the driver never came forward to clear him/her self. The key phrase in all of this for me was always "dark car lacking chrome". Certainly looks like low lighting and old technology lamps can mess with colour perception, but at the same time it does seem people were clearly able to identify the white Impala at night. If there really was a dark car lacking chrome, I don't think it is the white Chevy Impala because of how many people describe the white Chevy Impala as white. But that description of the second car could be entirely wrong. I agree though the White Chevy Impala needed to be checked out one way or the other and looks like it never was. I find you have to take Ray Grant with a grain of salt and fact check **everything** he says.

Richard
10/4/2024 03:07:54 pm

The Impala may have been white, but Ermine White. Accordin to Ray, Gasser shone a light on it, Wesner's headlights illuminated it. But this wasn't the case with Axe and Owen. When James Owen passed the turnout Zodiac's car was beyond the Rambler and by Owen's own admission couldn't really see it. It was effectively in dim light or relative darkness. If this vehicle was an ermine white Impala, it would look darker. The question I suppose is how well did he see it and what did he mean by dark car. He actually stated he could not give a description of the make or colour of the other car...

Richard
10/4/2024 03:09:58 pm

We may never get to the bottom of this, but it's worth analysing.

Rubislaw32 link
10/4/2024 03:24:40 pm

As a general observation, Richard, through examining witness statements such as William Crow's:

After reading LHR - related witness statements, it occurred to me that the Zodiac was intentionally deceiving as a ''couple''. That he may have decided to strap a mannequin into his front passenger seat.

I ''sort of'' laugh at the thought. But, could be true ?

Richard
10/4/2024 03:35:06 pm

Or a blow up doll. He liked his bombs.

Rubislaw32 link
10/4/2024 04:10:13 pm

Yes...actually, a blow-up doll would be easier to manage. And, less likely to move around in the front seat, on account of its lightness.

Wrap a scarf around its head:

The Zodiac at LHR - aka ''Darby & Joan ride out''.

Jibberjabber
10/4/2024 03:47:27 pm

This is one of the things confusing me. If James Owen said he was unable to give a description of the second car, then who said it was dark and lacking chrome? Could be the ermine white Impala or it could be a completely different car that happened by during the short window of opportunity for the attack. I am wondering why does Ray Grant feel the need to doubt what some of the witnesses said, does it benefit him in any way if Helen Axe saw a white Impala rather than a 2-tone Rambler? If she saw the Impala then it had to be empty because I just don't think she would hold back on mentioning occupants if there were any. This was a brutal senseless double murder of 2 teenagers I don't see what motive anyone would have to decieve the police. I have to wonder how does an empty White Impala benefit any of his theories? Perhaps he wants or needs Helen Axe to be mistaken for some reason. I have sometimes wondered if Zodiac knew Gasser & Connolly were out (or had been out) that night and maybe tried to take them on and found they had gone by the time he was on foot. If Zodiac was in the Impala and it was in this vicinity for possibly an hour or more, before the Rambler came along he was maybe scoping the raccoon hunters or Wesner.

Richard
10/4/2024 04:05:53 pm

Yes I've considered that the Zodiac could have had a pencil flashlight for hunting in the fields, which he wouldn't need when ambushing a vehicle in a turnout. If he did arrive much earlier for that purpose it brings the Impala into play. James Owen said it was dark and lacking chrome which conflicted with his statement of not seeing the colour. But he never mentioned a gunshot in his first statement and added that in his second statement. Also he said in his first statement the two cars were 10 feet apart, while in his second statement they were 3-4 feet apart. I don't attribute too much relevance to his "dark car" description anymore.

Johnny
10/4/2024 03:52:46 pm

If there were really two individuals, maybe they wouldn't have left the car like they ( if ) did. Just a suggestion.

Johnny
10/4/2024 03:55:37 pm

...i don't particularly believe in two men stalking the forrest..... when one of them could keep the car warm and away from the scene.

Richard
10/4/2024 04:11:52 pm

I go with one perpetrator, but the Debut of Zodiac did say "All I had to do was spray them as if it was a water hose; there was no need to use the gun sights".David Faraday wasn't sprayed with bullets, he was shot once by the left ear. Was the writer only the murderer of Betty Lou? While the person securing David executed him with one shot.

Jibberjabber
10/5/2024 12:16:10 am

AFTER SLEEPING ON IT!!! Richard, where is Ray Grant getting his information from when he says Robert Connelly saw the Impala facing South? It does not say that in his witness statements from what I can tell. Bingo Wesner does say he saw the Impala facing the gate, but I cannot see Gasser or Connely say that. Gasser & Connely say the Rambler was parked at the gate, then Helen Axe says the Rambler was facing the gate but later moved. Is Connelly not corroborating Helen Axe that it was the Rambler at the gate?? The only person who said the impala was at the gate was Wesner. I do believe Wesner did identify the impala and not the Rambler because it clearly says in his statement that he did not see the Rambler. Again we have to assume Wesner can tell a Rambler and an Impala apart for that line to be relevant.

The way I read these reports the Impala was at the gate, then later the Impala is gone and the Rambler is at the gate but then later again the Rambler changes position again to the East bank.

The reason I am bringing this up again is if Ray Grant is saying something NOT In the police report then I want him to say where he has got this information from. I can also find nothing about Gasser shining a torch on the Impala.

I am not saying Connolly & Gasser never identified the Impala at the gate or Gasser never shone a torch on it - just that it does not say any of that in the reports I am reading.

Also I am trying to get it clear in my head, if Ray Grant is saying Helen Axe is erroneous about seeing the Rambler facing the gate, but Robert Connelly also claims to have seen the car on the south west (as the police clarify is what he is saying) - if they are corroborating each other does Ray Grant not also have to state that Helen Axe and Robert Connelly are both erroneous???

I fact check everything Ray Grant says.

You are right on the money when you say Wesner's statement is ambigous on time, it is not clear if he saw the Red pick-up twice or just once. Which means he could have seen the Impala twice, it would be good to clear that up. What his statement does say is he did not see the Rambler. I dont know how many people need to get an Impala and a Rambler mixed up for Ray Grant to be right but I am typing here I want to see this extra info Grant has that is NOT in the police reports and is required to cast doubt on these witnesses testimony.

I am wondering if it is Ray Grant that is erroneous

Jibberjabber
10/5/2024 12:51:21 am

Absolutely could be the Impala in play, it could be the car spotted by Stan, then William Crow, then Wesner / Connelly / Gasser. But personally I would believe it was there in the turnout, left and then came back before I would believe 2 or more witnesses were confusing a white Impala with a 2-tone Rambler - they are just too dissimilar in shape and if Connelly saw the same car Helen Axe did then he also has to have mixed his cars up but previously had been able to identify them both on separate occasions. All this is just my own opinion though I could easily be wrong

Richard Grinell
10/5/2024 01:40:35 am

The whole statement by Connelly is "They described the light coloured 1960 Rambler that was parked at the gate. It was parked southwest of where we finally found the car. This discrepancy wasn't noted at first. They said that when they arrived there at 9:00pm a white 4-door hardtop, a 1959 or 1960 Impala, was parked there, and also, a truck coming out of the gate". Bingo Wesner stated "that when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by". So I guess the assumption is that the statement of when they arrived at 9pm an Impala was parked THERE, meant it was parked in a similar position to when they later saw the Rambler. Also, because Ray argues that both Wesner and Connelly saw each other at 10pm - and Wesner saw the Impala at the south fence - then Connelly must have seen the Impala at the south fence as well. Helen Axe describing the "Rambler" or "Impala" according to Ray, also facing inwards by the gate, corroborates both Wesner and Connelly. Because Ray believes the Impala sighting by Connelly is 10pm, we have Connelly, Wesner and Axe all seeing the Impala at the gate between 10pm and 10:15pm. Her statement is therefore congruent with Wesner and Connelly.

Jibberjabber: "The way I read these reports the Impala was at the gate, then later the Impala is gone and the Rambler is at the gate but then later again the Rambler changes position again to the East bank". CORRECT. The only thing I want qualified is Ray mentioning that Gasser shone his torch at the Rambler at 10:20pm. I can't find the source, but I guess he should have a credible one, otherwise it would be a spurious claim. My only reservations in the story of Ray, is Connelly arriving at 10pm. Surely when Connelly & Gasser left the house that night they had some idea of the time. Also, if Gasser is shining a torch in the Impala at 10:20pm. Ray wrote on Tapatalk "10:20pm: Frank Gasser comes out through Gate #10 and shines his flashlight into the white Chevy Impala, wondering what a car is doing parked out there in the middle of nowhere". They then headed off to the pumping station close to the Dotta Ranch, which is about a 10 minute journey. It should now be 10:30pm. It's a 15 minute journey back from here to the Marshall Ranch. It should now be 10:45pm. Ray said in his book that Connelly & Gasser arrived back at their car by the Marshall Ranch circa 10:50pm. That would give them only 5 minutes for Raccoon hunting. So they travelled out that night for 5 minutes hunting? However, If they travelled out to the Marshall Ranch around 9pm as they claimed, they would have 1 hour and 5 minutes hunting time, which sounds more realistic. I believe they passed the turnout at 9pm not 10pm.

Richard
10/5/2024 01:55:17 am

10:20: Gasser shines torch at Impala.
10:30pm: They arrive near the pumping station/Dotte Ranch
10:35pm: They finish 5 minutes of hunting and walk back to their vehicle.
10:50pm: They arrive back at the Marshall Ranch and load up. Spotted by Your's minues later.

Does 5 minutes hunting sound right? Even if they travelled back to the Marshall Ranch in 10 minutes that only leaves 10 minutes of hunting time?

Richard
10/5/2024 02:17:30 am

That is why I always argued that the two statements attributed to Wesner were two different sightings of the Connelly & Gasser red pick-up truck that night.

[1] Connelly: "when they arrived there at 9:00pm a white 4-door hardtop, a 1959 or 1960 Impala, was parked there, and also, a truck coming out of the gate". Bingo Wesner stated "that when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by".

[2] However, Bingo Wesner was also quoted as saying that "last night he was checking his sheep at approximately 10:00pm (east of the Benicia Pumping Station) and he observed a white Chevrolet Impala Sedan, parked by the south fence of the entrance to the pumping station. He also observed a red Ford pick-up with wood side boards in the area (the pick-up was later identified as the one Frank Gasser and Robert Connelly were riding in)".

Connelly said he saw Wesner at 9pm. Wesner said he "saw the pick-up truck go by" the turnout. Wesner said at 10pm he saw a pick-up truck "in the area". I contend that red pick-up truck "go by" and "in the area" are not the same sighting. At 9pm Wesner sees Connelly & Gasser arriving and at 10pm he sees the pick-up truck in the area of the Marshall Ranch. I suspect he travelled to Vallejo at 9pm and when he returned to check his sheep at 10pm he passed the Marshall Ranch and saw the pick-up truck by the gate of the Ranch.

Jibberjabber
10/5/2024 02:28:14 am

I think you could be right Richard, I never appreciated that until you pointed it out. Now when I read Wesner's statement I am screaming IS THIS 2 SIGHTINGS OR JUST THE ONE!!!!! Little things like that could make a difference - well even in just our understanding of the sequence of events if nothing else. Those brief witness statements arent always as clear as they could be unfortunately. 5 minutes hunting does not sound credible at all, I think there was likely a 9PM and 10 PM sighting of the Impala / Red truck by Wesner, which could be AFTER it chased William Crow from the same area (between 9:30 - 10 PM) and he had driven away, then maybe it went back to that place. Maybe the Impala was cruising LHR and then would return to the turnout every so often. around 11:10-11:20 there was a convergence of the twain!

JIbberjabber
10/5/2024 02:36:59 am

Yes - there is still something up with Connelly & Axe time estimates, either they are getting the cars mixed up or they are getting the times mixed up, or the Rambler was also parked in the turnout had left and returned later (as well as the Impala)??

if it came down to a choice of witnesses get their times wrong or get their cars wrong I wonder which is the more likely??

Richard
10/5/2024 03:04:12 am

The most important thing for Ray to qualify is the timeline of Connelly & Gasser. Is it reasonable to conclude their hunting exploits took 5 to 10 minutes by the pumping station and Dotta Ranch? I believe Wesner exited the gate #10 turnout at 9pm. Connelly & Gasse passed by at 9pm and parked up in the driveway of the Marshall Ranch about 9:01pm to 9:02pm. They went hunting by the pumping station close to the Dotta Ranch around 9:10pm to 9:15pm. They hunted for about 1 hour, 20 minutes and headed back circa 10:35pm, to arrive back at their vehicle at the Marshall Ranch at approximately 10:50pm. They could have hunted for nearly 1 hour 30 minutes and arrived back at their vehicle approaching 11pm. Either way, this sounds a more reasonable amount of time to have spent on their raccoon hunting exploits than 10 minutes maximum.

Richard
10/5/2024 03:50:51 am

This may be stretching things a little far, but earlier we touched on the idea that Zodiac armed with a pencil flashlight on his gun, parked his Impala (at either 9pm or 10pm, or both) abd went out hunting for humans around the lake, pumping station and Dotta Ranch. If the Zodiac knew this area well, he may have known that Bingo Wesner regularly tended his sheep in this area (he was there at 10pm on the 20th December). Bingo Wesner tended his sheep east of the pumping station. Could he have had Bingo Wesner in his gunsights that night? Noted by Connelly, he stated they observed some sort of "activity" by the Dottie Ranch, but couldn't tell what the activity was. I wonder if Zodiac was lurking in the area. Maybe Zodiac spotted Connelly, Gasser and the dogs and retreated back to his vehicle shortly before 9:30pm, drove away and returned around 10pm for another wander. Then eventually left ar about 10:30pm, if Helen Axe really saw the Impala shift position at this time.

Johnny
10/5/2024 06:50:47 am

Gasser didn't see any toys i presume. K. Jones did and that could be a female fantasy, maybe Gasser saw some mechanic tool....

Richard
10/5/2024 07:00:43 am

Until we get clarification from Ray Grant on the source for Gasser approaching the Impala with a flashlight, we cannot verify what he apparently saw. We certainly won't get any information from Frank Gasser because he was 69 in 1968.

Jibberjabber
10/5/2024 08:30:36 am

Just another observation if Connelly and Axe did see a car facing South, that would likely be the best chance to tell an Impala from a Rambler station wagon as it is the rear of those 2 vehicles that shows the differences the most. I have sometimes wondered if it is significant Zodiac did not refer to Lake Herman Road by name, he said the 2-teenagers by Lake Herman. He did get Columbous Parkway road name right and knew the street names at Presidio Heights. I wonder why he did not refer to LHR by name? He knew the lake name but did he know the road name? The turnout is not directly at the lake but at the same time it is not too far from it

Richard
10/5/2024 08:39:38 am

Maybe he was just being more precise because the lake is by the turnout, as you stated.

Johnny
10/5/2024 01:13:20 pm

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/proximity

Don't know if its possible to think a Corvair coud be an Impala?

but look here: This car "apparently"* has a bad oil leak as the street in front of the house showed oil on the pavement as though the car was leaking oil.

*they did a lazy job it seems


...and his mother got him an alibi

Johnny
10/5/2024 01:32:15 pm

Sorry, this was after the second attack. Anyway, it could be interesting still, and i would think that the person owning the Impala perhaps sold it between the attacks, or atleast not continued to use it for a second time?

Johnny
10/5/2024 02:22:34 pm

Couldn't find any living or dead Patrick Dennis with the correct birth date, but i tried changing his name and come up with another person now dead working at Mare Island with the correct birth date.

It's most probably another individual, but i think its low odds that Patrick Dennis changed his name if he really was involved. I also think its low odds on that this type of person continued living where he was born and raised.

So if he changed his name i guess we may look at the birth date and go from there. It can't be especially many born at this date that continued living in Vallejo, but i guess theres a few.

Brasky
10/6/2024 12:10:46 am

I doubt there was two people in the Impala. People really don't grasp how dim headlights were and how dark the roads where back in the 60's.

Johnny
10/6/2024 04:59:58 am

No, it almost like he ( they ) put the interior lights on if that's the case. My father always banned me when i did this, i didn't understand that we became a moving object that people could see very clearly.

Scott Norton
10/8/2024 03:05:55 pm

Fascinating thread.
More on Ermine White here. https://corvaircenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=373754


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