ZODIAC CIPHERS
RICHARD GRINELL, COVENTRY, ENGLAND
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GETTING UNDER THE SKIN OF ZODIAC

2/23/2025

 
PictureEdward Theodore Gein
Having long claimed the murders of Kathie Snoozy (15) and Debra Furlong (14), brutally stabbed in San Jose on August 3rd 1969, the Zodiac Killer had clearly been exposed as a fraud when their real killer, Karl Francis Werner, was interviewed and questioned about the murders of Kathy Bilek, Kathie Snoozy​ and Debra Furlong at the end of April 1971. The Zodiac Killer's response was immediate, mailing the 148 character cipher and letter shortly afterwards, followed by the Monticello card on July 13th 1971. The Zodiac Killer was determined not to relinquish the two victims he had claimed in his running total on November 8th 1969, by compounding matters, and adding Kathy Bilek to his list on July 13th 1971. Karl Francis Werner, in his eyes, had stolen two of his victims, so he was going to steal back all three for his afterlife and vicariously live through the memories of the three young girls.
​
Upset with law enforcement and Werner, who the Zodiac Killer probably viewed with disdain, needed to reclaim the victims and threaten further action in the coming days or weeks. The 148 character cipher and letter laid bare his intentions by threatening to "skin three little kids and make a suit from the skin", and mail "a patch of human skin if there is some left over". This was straight from the playbook of Theodore Edward Gein, who roamed the graveyards of Plainfield, Wisconsin looking to exhume body parts to fashion grisly souvenirs from the skin and bones. His mother, Augusta Wilhelmine Gein (who died on December 29th 1945), was a domineering woman with an intense hatred for females, but whose death from a stroke left Edward Gein devastated and alone in the farmhouse. Soon after his mother's death, Gein began to create a "woman suit" from pieces of skin so that "he could become his mother and literally crawl into her skin". It appeared as though Edward Gein wanted to feel close to his dead mother and become the embodiment of her once life.     

PictureAnthony Perkins
Edward Gein's dark thoughts fashioned the idea behind the movie Psycho (1960), produced and directed by Alfred Hitchcock and starring Anthony Perkins and Janet Leigh. Norman Bates, the lead character played by Perkins, had previously killed his mother, Norma, and her lover out of jealousy ten years earlier. For many years, Norma and Norman had lived together in the fictional small town of Fairvale, California "as if there is no one else in the world". Norma raises her son Norman with cruelty and forbids him to have a life away from her, and teaches him that sexual intercourse is sinful and that all women (except herself) are whores.

When Norman was a teenager, his mother met Joe Considine and planned to marry, who then convinces Norma to open a motel. Norman grows furiously jealous, believing that Norma has abandoned him for her fiancé, and murders them both with strychnine. He then stages it like murder-suicide, making it look as if Norma had killed Considine and then herself. Unable to bear the loss of his mother, Norman stole Norma's corpse and mummified it in the fruit cellar, and spoke to it as if his mother were still alive. He also spoke to himself in her voice and frequently dressed in her clothes. Norman Bates has effectively become his mother in order to escape the awareness of her death and the guilt of having murdered her". Wikipedia. 

​It is plain to see the similarities between Norman Bates and Edward Gein, both of whom were controlled by a domineering mother with a hatred for other females, whose male fantasies centered on their mothers living on after death. The following newspaper clipping from the Chicago Daily News on November 20th 1957 describes a mother who often told Edward Gein and his brother to "Watch out for women. They are evil". 

Picture
Picture
When you consider the specificity of the Zodiac Killer's statement to "skin three little kids and make a suit from the skin", and mail "a patch of human skin if there is some left over", shortly after the arrest of Karl Francis Werner, it should become obvious that the Bay Area murderer was condescendingly referring to Kathie Snoozy (15), Debra Furlong (14) and Kathy Bilek (18) as the three kids he wanted to make a skin suit from. 

​Kathy Bilek was buried in the Madronia Cemetery in Saratoga, Debra Furlong in the Oak Wood Cemetery in Santa Cruz, and Kathie Snoozy in the Oak Hill Memorial Park & Cemetery in the Monticello neighborhood of San Jose. The pasted phrase of "Near Monticello Shought Victims 21 ...... In The Woods Dies April" in the Zodiac Killer's Monticello card on July 13th 1971, was referencing the murder of Kathy Bilek on April 11th 1971 in the Villa Montalvo woods in Saratoga, not far from the Monticello neighborhood where Kathie Snoozy was buried. The Zodiac Killer was tying both victims together under the banner of one postcard - and by extension - the murder of Debra Furlong. 

Any doubts that this was the case were expelled on September 18th 1973, when 
somebody removed a tombstone from the Oak Hill Memorial Park & Cemetery in the Monticello neighborhood of San Jose and placed it in front of the cemetery gate. The tombstone had the pseudonym "Zodiac" written on it in crayon. In the whole of California (and America) we have only one instance of a tombstone being removed from a cemetery with the pseudonym "Zodiac" being written on it - and it just happened to be from the Oak Hill Memorial Park & Cemetery in the Monticello neighborhood of San Jose where Kathie Snoozy was buried. It's pretty obvious this deed was done by the Zodiac Killer, especially when you consider that the contents of the Monticello card were not publicly known on September 18th 1973. This was a Zodiac Killer who threatened to dig up the bodies of the three girls, who later visited the gravesite of Kathie Snoozy. This connection should have been made in 1973.

Picture
Fast forward to January 19th 1978, three months before the April 24th 1978 "I am back with you" letter from the Zodiac Killer. A six-page letter was mailed to Mayor Tom Bradley in Los Angeles during the search for the Hillside Strangler. Its author has never been identified, but it carried the dominant word of "PLEASE" followed by two exclamation marks, not dissimilar to the dominant word "PLEASE" on the Zodiac Killer's "Channel Nine" letter on May 2nd 1978, also mailed from Los Angeles. The Channel Nine letter read "PLEASE hold the applause", followed by one exclamation mark. Both letters ultimately had a connection to Los Angeles Chief Daryl F. Gates.

I wondered whether the Zodiac Killer may have been responsible for this six-page letter, because we know of the Zodiac Killer's propensity to write multi-paged letters, often interjecting himself into murder investigations he had no involvement in. But it was something else in the January 19th 1978 letter that struck a chord. It reminded me of the movie "Psycho", based loosely on the story of Edward Theodore Gein. The letter told of a man who had killed his mother, who couldn't get her out of his head. A woman who told him to "kill those bad and evil ladys", just like the mother of Edward Gein, who told her sons to "Watch out for women. They are evil". The author of the January 19th 1978 letter claimed that his mother made his "head hurt", not unlike the character of Norman Bates in the movie "Psycho". We know that the Zodiac Killer referenced the movies and its award ceremonies throughout his communications, so did the film "Psycho" bridge the gap from 1971 to 1978 in the musings of one mind. Below is page one of the January 19th 1978 correspondence. 

Picture
Picture
Chief Daryl F. Gates holds part of the letter
The following describes the four year journey of the Zodiac Killer from July 31st 1969 to September 18th 1973. It is a blend of many previous articles, hoping to achieve a greater understanding into the mind of a killer, who thrived on terror and extortion.
A FOUR YEAR JOURNEY TO TOMBSTONE 

Picture
Johnny
2/23/2025 04:16:56 am

For me when i read it, my"feeling" is that it has some similarity to the https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-channel-9-letter-explained

Richard
2/23/2025 04:23:18 am

Somewhat Johnny. And the January 19th 1978 author would have seen the letter in the newspapers being held up by Los Angeles Chief Daryl F. Gates. So it's uncanny that Zodiac would target "Chief Piggy" Daryl Gates as his number one target on May 2nd 1978.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 01:23:44 am

I like it, Richard, though early days on ''digestion'' for me. The Zodiac pushing a ''Blame Ma'' ruse ? Personally, I believe that ''Ma'' did play a role in Zodiac's motive, but to actually defend her honor.

I've been a fan of your ''Tombstone offering'' of September 18th 1973, ever since you presented it. It fits in the gap between the Albany letter & cryptogram of August 1st 1973 - and January 1974 Exorcist letter.

So does the Benicia High School Note (mural) of November 22nd 1973 - so I believe.

Good to introduce this ''Please'' letter - with possible links, and May 2nd 1978 Channel 9 letter as an example.

Richard
2/24/2025 01:49:50 am

Absolutely Rubi, I'm obviously not saying that the January 19th 1978 letter was Zodiac, I'm just pointing out some similarities to at least probe the idea that it's not impossible. The tombstone desecration is almost certainly the same person who mailed the Monticello card, because the Oak Hill cemetery binds the two together. About 8 years ago I identified "Monticello" as the neighbourhood that Snoozy was buried in, so when Jibberjabber kindly gave me access to newspapers.com for the first time, imagine my surprise to find this very cemetery connected to Zodiac through the crayon writing of his pseudonym. Not meaning to sound like a big-headed jerk, but I didn't need this September 18th 1973 finding to know I was correct 8 years ago, however, this finding was the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. It's pretty obvious what tombstone was removed, irrespective of the newspapers not giving this information. The logical thing to have done in 1973, assuming the surface allowed it, was to dust the tombstone for fingerprints around its edges and compare them to the bloody fingerprints from the Stine cab. At least they would have been ruled in or out. If Zodiac wore gloves then so be it.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/25/2025 07:12:13 am

I like it also Sir Richard.

And this makes sense. I was always confused, and never seen anyone provide any substance as to why the Zodiac would be claiming so much more "additional activity". This helps to fill in that gap.

What I love is this fills in the gaps as far as motivations and variations on a theme, that would still be the Zodiac killer.

The taunting, yet still connecting back to media, and popular culture. Almost as a thumb in the eye to those that both would, and would not understand the reference. There's a kind of cryptological thinking to that type of behavior.

Things that are "Open Secrets". Meaning you the public should know, and get my reference, for your unGodly behavior and servitude to pop culture.

This being the thinking and orientation of someone railing against popular culture, yet seeking the adulation and attention that it provides.

I like it quite a lot.

Richard
2/25/2025 10:44:45 pm

I "know" there is more activity from Zodiac than is widely read. There were many more phone calls and letters, but there could have been dozens or over a hundred, according Robert Prouty, a document examiner. He just labelled them hoaxes, but in abscence of DNA and fingerprint confirmation, it's practically impossible to call something a hoax. Not proven as Zodiac is the best statement one could reasonably offer.

When I started in the Zodiac scene 13 years ago Ed, I believed that providing numerous solid arguments or pieces of evidence for a letter or card being genuine would move the needle. I realise today that the vast majority of people will always stick with what they've alwas believed irrespective of any amount of evidence you provide.
For example, Betty Lou wasn't running away "square on" to the killer when she was shot 5 times in the back. This is not possible, but I am not expecting the truth to embed itself ever, because the story of Zodiac that's been told for years will always prevail over fact.

Years ago I investigated heavily the "scotch tape" letter to see if it could be shown to be real or not, and was called a "kook" for believing it was genuine Zodiac, despite at that juncture never saying once I believed it was genuine. These individuals want to shame you just for examining the possibility it could be genuine. Their reasoning for dismissing these letters, like the 1978 letter above (or the April 24th 1978 letter) is always the same - "handwriting and tone" - neither of which could convict anybody as standalone evidence. "Tone" means nothing from an evidentiary standpoint and "experts" can't agree on handwriting (ie JonBenet ransom note). What I'm trying to say Ed, is the God of the Gaps narrows when we examine new angles and don't just accept the Zodiac consensus through idle and lazy thinking.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/26/2025 06:38:45 am

Sir Richard,

Love to hear it, and am very much in agreement. that is if I understand it correctly.

Would have loved to have seen a link from you for this Scotch tape letter. But I'll just have to search it out for myself.

Handwriting and tone has its place. It faces the challenges of bias, perception and the separate discussion about pseudoscience. But I believe it does provide some color.

Alas it leaves room for not only interpretation. It leaves room for much, much more, that could be stronger than interpretation. Even just a little bit.

And as far as the JonBenét ramsey note. You've touched on a spot for me. I've studied that note quite a bit. I like to say, I believe I've studied it more than most, or at the least, have found more than most.

A lot of what I "refer to" on here. About "artifacts" and other "things of note" -- that ransom note can be classified under. But that's a story for another time. Or another channel.

Separately though, this problem of "proof" still exists. As you mention, it's unclear how you "authenticate" any of these supposed "hoaxes" as not that.

This is where it gets interesting.

Intelligence. Theory of mind.

Theory of mind, is a stage that happens as intelligence grows and develops. This is what I mean when I talk about "Quality of intelligence"

Theory of mind is the ability to "get into someone's head". It could feed things like "empathy". Understanding what someone else is going through. It's akin to "projection"

I'm not an expert, so those definitions could be slightly off.

But why am I talking about this? Why is any of it relevant to the subject?

Someone of a higher quality intelligence -- let's pretend it's the Zodiac killer. Someone with a firmly developed "Theory of mind", would have foreseen that this would be a problem for the killer himself. As a persona. As something that would be reflected in the Annals of history. Who's who, and who's real would be very much of interest to him possibly. A settling of the score so to say.

Him being a fraud. How do you combat this? (Could be a thought that this person wrestled with). You see this line of thinking in the writings of the Zodiac. Asking for attention. Asking to be put on front pages. Asking why he was not etc.

Why would his behavior be seen at all similar in any respects to 'ole Jack?

This is a person that was very interested in a "count" of his kills. Meaning he suspected that the coppers could not find him and all of his "kills". His accomplishments. So he had to TELL them. Whether he lies or not is besides the point. This is a behavior of his. A need of his.

I've mentioned this before. Cryptology provides for "Authentication". CryptoGRAPHY further allows for this in "WRITING".

These are tools that the Zodiac had access to. It's a type of thinking that he (one could assume) was fluent in. That's just based on the 340 and the 408.

What if the cryptograms were just one way to express his cryptological bonafides? There are other tools in a cryptological toolbox. Specifically to cryptoGRAPHY, there are things that are not "cryptograms" proper, as it pertains to this case. There may be other types of "artifacts". Sort of "Things left behind". Whether they be doodles, or lyrics from a song that lingers perhaps.

There are many tools.

It is my belief that all of this could be true. And I hope to find out if it is.

Scotch tape here I come.

Richard link
2/26/2025 10:30:06 pm

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/a-pawn-in-a-game-of-death

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/27/2025 04:21:43 pm

Grazi! Senori!!

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 02:29:31 am

It certainly looks like there was no holding back on the Zodiac - taking any opportunity available, to ''destabilize''.

''Please'' help me I am drownding.

One is reminded of the Beatles first hit single, in 1963:

''Please, please me, whoa, yeah, like I please you.''.

Should one laugh or cry ?

Johnny
2/24/2025 02:33:29 am

You two wount believe me, but i actually didnt read that Rick wrote about the channel 9 letter in the article. As soon as i saw the writing on the "PLEASE" letter i got an idea and immediatily checked the channel 9 letter and saw somewhat a match at first sight and then posted here right away. Just thought i should mention it.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 02:57:49 am

Well, I have to say, Johnny - my head's in a spin this morning.

And admit, that I am more laughing than crying.

Wouldn't you just like to kick Zodiac's backside ?

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:05:21 am

Yes, i also like to sometimes when i hear he does filthy things...

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 03:14:50 am

Stan Laurel, to Oliver Hardy:

''Your wife thinks I'm a bad influence on you.''

Oliver Hardy:

''Well, we won't talk about that.''.

Richard
2/24/2025 03:22:07 am

There are many instances of "please" in Zodiac and potential Zodiac communications besides these two.
[1] The one thing I ask of you is this, please help me.
[2] Please help me. I am drownding.
[3] Please help me I can not remain in control for much longer
[4] Please no nasty ones like melvin's.
[5] Please Rush To Editor (numerous times)
[6] Please stop forced bussing or I will kill 3 more black boys in Atlanta in March
[7] Daniel Please Call Home
[8] Please, where can I write you, ?. SC

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 03:29:28 am

Good to see them laid out, Richard.

The ''pleas'' have it ?

Although considered a low priority these days, the handwriting doesn't dissuade, either. Those ''candlesticks'' making another appearance.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 03:34:58 am

I like ''lisson'' for ''listen''.

I claim the Zodiac wrote ''cekst'' for ''sexed''.

Par excellence.

Richard
2/24/2025 03:42:52 am

[1] I gave the cops som bussy work to do to keep them happy
[2] Happy Halloween
[3] Happy New Year
[4] I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage
[5] HAPPY HOLIDAYS, ANYWAY
[6] I shall be very happy to supply even more material
[7] I wish you a happy Christmass

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/25/2025 07:06:15 am

Rubi noticed -- candlesticks.

Sir Richard, you noticed -- Pleas, and Happy.

What do I notice?

The "t's". I mentioned this in one of my long screeds. While I don't know what the candlesticks might indicate, I explained what the t's and how they were written could represent.

You may recall, I went a bit long on describing them typographically. While a few of them are outliers, the styling of the the t's are largely the same.

That is to say, they are purposely, stylistically written incorrectly. Why do I say this? Because you can compare the capital T's to the lower case t's.

Anyone with a background in design nowadays knows about midbars, x-height, and whatever the top stroke of the capital "T" would be called (I'm still learning).

I'll try to explain it again, because I believe it to be important. Why? Because I believe it's part of a pattern that repeats, and I've come to believe it's an internal system that this person had in his head at all times. An internal language that he kept in the recesses of his mind.

The midbar on a large number of those t's is at the midpoint. Which is incorrect. But it's done purposefully in this writing. It's very subtle. But to a trained eye, it appears forced. On purpose even.

Look....very....carefully.

The midbar on a lower case t is actually supposed to only be 1/3 rd of the way down when you write. As this text here that I'm writing shows.

When you lower the midbar on such a letter, it appears like "a cross"

Just something I noticed. It's here in this letter. I have many other examples of this that I believe I've found. I'll hopefully be able to explain what I think it means soon.

Perhaps it's nothing. Or perhaps it could be something of more importance.

Rubislaw32 link
2/25/2025 03:57:49 pm

Interesting ?

''Happy Talk'' is a song from the musical ''South Pacific'' , by Rogers & Hammerstein.

The singer, in character ? Bloody Mary.

Rubislaw32 link
2/25/2025 05:45:19 pm

Man walks up to a bar to order a round of drinks.

''I'll have two Bloody Mary's and a f*cking Champagne, please.''

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:37:24 am

It is, but why did i see the similarity after just a few sentences reading channel 9 or why did i rush to just this letter right after i saw this.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 03:40:27 am

Could be the 1978 ''visitation'' of the Zodiac ?

We're up to 4 now, and counting.

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:57:48 am

Whats that? I dont know...

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 04:10:52 am

Well, the April one is the only one confirmed - on a technicality, and under controversial circumstances.

One could really ring-fence ''January'' , ''April'', ''May'' and ''July'', now - for 1978.

Johnny
2/24/2025 04:13:00 am

Yes, exactly, and i was stupid as usual but corrected myself. Se further down.

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:38:27 am

Daniel please call home is a real filthy one

Richard
2/24/2025 03:45:05 am

Should have been "Darron Please Call Home", so that author was being mischievous.

Richard link
2/24/2025 03:46:22 am

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-missing-darron-glass

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:54:36 am

I know what i saw by the way. Do you see the same, Rubi?

I saw the elongated ( think this is the name ) letters and the structure of the design. Later when i looked again to be conscious of what it wa i saw, i saw that it stood dear ( and a similar title line i think ) up to the left and it was the same on both letters.

I havent seen it has any "please" in it. It is what you two say;) But i trust you!

Johnny
2/24/2025 03:58:31 am

Yeah yeah, his makes comeback in -78 you mean, ok i see..

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 04:19:00 am

We've see this type of handwriting before, anyway. The predominance of capital letters, with the odd ''lower case'' letter thrown in.

An example being, as touted, the ''Steve McQueen letter'' : A list of Hollywood stars and Democrat politicians, under threat.

Johnny
2/24/2025 04:23:02 am

Ok, fair enough. My feeling could be just a coincidence then. I leave that now.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 04:40:47 am

The long and the short of it, Johnny, is that you are probably right.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 04:53:43 am

That newspaper photo of Chief Gates might become iconic, Richard - in a post-ironic sense ?

A new caption: ''Give yourself up, Zodiac - you're banged to rights.''.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 06:25:59 am

I presume - no sign of the other 5 pages, then ?

Richard
2/24/2025 08:36:44 am

Did a thorough search of two newspaper archive sites and couldn't find any information on the other 5 pages. You would have thought after enough time had elapsed they would have released the remainder to the public to help identify the author. But obviously not.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 10:28:22 am

Thanks, Richard. So often ''par for the course''. But, we can never be ''ungrateful'' for something of potentially great Zodiac interest.

Something might turn up. Possibly, to do with the Hillside Strangler case.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 10:52:28 am

''My mother makes my head hurt''.

Good chance, that's Zodiac the scoundrel. I still think it was an actor calling in to Melvin Belli on the TV show. The Zodiac wouldn't have missed a chance to mock, in some way. And, never forgot these sorts of details.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 11:26:01 am

Well, at the very least, this will alert CA DOJ - if they haven't noted it already. And, can easily acquire a copy off LAPD.

FBI have proven to be ''miserly'' about possible connections to the Zodiac, in the past.

Simon
2/24/2025 01:31:29 pm

Years ago, Silly Simon mailed me a The Beatles box filled with nutty delusions about William Joseph Grant. I still have it, complete with Simon's full contact information. I wonder if I shall post it on the internet?

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 01:52:19 pm

That would be the same William Joseph Grant whom Lyndon Lafferty thought was the Zodiac ?

The same Lyndon Lafferty who called Tom Voigt ''A low-life leech and the ultimate Zodiac whore.''

The same Tom Voigt who risks the wrath of CA DOJ, at any time, if he doesn't behave himself.

The same Tom Voigt whose best sleuthing pal got caught red-handed by NCIS Washington DC, attempting to bribe an employee - a criminal offence.

The same Tom Voigt who appears to be a tormented soul.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 03:57:19 pm

So - the Hillside Stranglers turned out to be a pair: Angelo Buono Jr and Kenneth Bianchi. Buono died in 2002 of a heart attack. Bianchi still alive, serving life.

And yet the ''Please'' letter writer claims he is one person.

Buono's convictions included Grand Auto Theft - the same conviction received by Blaine Blaine - ex-boyfriend of Richard Gaikowski, and the guy who recommended to Tom Voigt that ''Gyke'' was the Zodiac Killer.

Unlucky for Voigt (?) - it cost him 15 wasted years of devotion.

Johnny
2/24/2025 05:21:38 pm

Just one strange feeling i got when you Rick and Rubi discussing the 5 missing pages. Probably ofcourse they only show one of them, but i also have heard Voigt saying that Zodiac sent grotesque things atleast one time. Maybe it was wet....

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 05:35:54 pm

Perhaps he could elaborate, Johnny.

What I am confident about is that Scorpion sent photographs with his ciphers. And, they may have been of a ''lewd'' nature. He (Zodiac ?) almost certainly included shots of ''Ladyboys'' advertising their business, and seems to have considered it amusing.

Again, these are compliments that the FBI hold - and probably felt it unnecessary to show CA DOJ, because they didn't think Scorpion was (SF) Zodiac.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/24/2025 06:00:14 pm

First I'm hearing about this. Why I love this site. Actual information.

Is that true that Z may have sent ladyboy pictures as part of the Scorpion Ciphers?

Is there any other corroborating source for that?

And what is your thought about why he may had done that? Curious to hear. I believe Small Void received something by mail that was supposedly originating from China.

This would be interesting if it was from Z. You may have China, and the Philippines tends to have a lot of Ladyboy culture. And lest we forget, there was the lady sawed in half from the Philippines also I believe.

Could be interesting if there's a connection somehow with the Far East. You also have the Mikado.

Thoughts @Rubi?

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 06:00:37 pm

Ladyboys ? Hermaphrodite prostitutes.

Scorpion aka Zodiac's interpretation: ''Hybrid Genders with edge''.

Hybrid Genders also infers ''High Bridge Enders'' - a perception of the Golden Gate Bridge.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 06:07:09 pm

I believe it was Singapore, EdEdwardsCiphers - that Voigt heard from a claimed Zodiac.

Johnny
2/24/2025 06:08:20 pm

Rubi just talks, Ed...

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 06:21:55 pm

That's right. And so does everyone else, Johnny.

On a positive note, I recommend anyone to take a trawl through the Edward Kennedy FBI File 7.

A veritable ''eyeopener'' - with a ''flavour'' of The Mikado, if you feel so persuaded.

Johnny
2/24/2025 06:26:50 pm

Only if people get fooled i correct.

Rubislaw32 link
2/24/2025 06:37:05 pm

No point doing this - if in a snotty mood.

Look cheerful.

Johnny
2/24/2025 06:19:30 pm

The letter from Singapore is real though atleast if Voigt is to trust. Ladyboys or my wet pages, who knows though....

Johnny
2/24/2025 06:40:14 pm

Not snotty, Rubi! Just tried to save Ed from the ladyboys! That was it and i saved him from my pages aswell...

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/26/2025 06:44:32 am

Save?

Who said I would need "Saving" from it. Hmmmmm?

;-p

Johnny
2/26/2025 11:09:16 pm

No....And maybe it really was ladyboys in it, who knows.:)

Johnny
2/24/2025 06:41:29 pm

Anyway, the letter is maybe to be found somewhere, but i cant find it right now.

Rubislaw32 link
2/25/2025 01:24:41 am

Just getting back to newspaper reportage on the ''Please'' letter writer:

1) He offered to surrender himself and an acquaintance, to LA Mayor Tom Bradley, if receiving assurances of safe conduct - by an unspecified deadline.

2) He offered to forward a certain ''item'' to Mayor Bradley, as proof of whom he claimed to be.

3) Police Chief Gates acknowledges that there were a number of claims, such as the one from the ''Please'' letter writer.

So, it seems that, although the ''Please'' letter writer was largely speaking for himself, an acquaintance was inferred.

As it turns out, and retrospectively, the last of the 9 victims for which Buono & Bianchi were convicted, was murdered about one month after this letter. So - during the course of murders being committed and bodies found, it's possible that the Zodiac may have read reportage, with investigators intimating that some of the victims might have been suspected of being connected and/or that more than one perpetrator might have been suspected, also.

Facts: 10 victims in total, found on LA hillsides. Bianchi arrested Jan 1979 - one year after the letter. Buono arrested October 1979 - 20 months after this letter.

Johnny
2/25/2025 07:15:03 pm

After thinking about it Rubi, it's important not destroy happiness around here with my prudish mentality. I will not again correct you when you have fun talking with others. I thought as i guess you understand, just to help out a little, just so Ed didnt get totally sidetracked. But thats not my business!

It's hard to write sometimes i think. It sounds so hard when you say something in writing and any correction with non verbal behaviour or of sound if voice is impossible.

But you yourself are real subtle in writing, Rubi! Last time i crossed the line i think you gave out 2-3 very nice almost feminine hints, real subtle to get me in line, where of i think i answered you and excused myself of one of these.

Rubislaw32 link
2/25/2025 08:34:10 pm

Well, you certainly spotted a likeness to elements of the letter, and the May 2nd 1978 Channel 9 letter, Johnny. My mind was just disturbed by the its persuasive nature, anyway.

It's good to exchange views. On reflection, we are just trying to convince ourselves that this letter ''isn't'' Zodiac.

Of course it is the Zodiac and quite exciting, too.

Rubislaw32 link
2/26/2025 03:07:06 am

Well done, Richard. I believe, beyond reasonable doubt, an authentic letter from the Zodiac, to LA Mayor Tom Bradley, January 19th 1978 - claiming to be a Hillside Strangler, and blaming his ''Ma''. What a rat.

For the May 2nd 1978, the ''key'' I believe, is the Zodiac blaming the FBI for suppressing the San Jose letter & cryptogram of Nov 21st 1969 - when the Zodiac falsely claimed for Jane Doe 59 aka Reet Jurvetson, as his 8th victim - his first claim of an LA victim.

''1 2 3 4 5 6 7 AGCGTH - can't you guys count up to 8 ?!''.

And for the July 19th 1978 typed letter, posted from LA to the SF Chronicle ? Known as the Scotch Tape letter - a false claim for Brenda Page (July 14th 1978) - a victim of Aberdeen, Scotland. From the public announcement of a re-investigation of her murder (Feb 27th 2015) - to her ex-husband's conviction, it took 8 years.

Rubislaw32 link
2/26/2025 03:45:07 am

P.S. And yes - naturally 1234567 AGCGTH is from the Beatles ''You never give me your money''. But more particularly, from Manson's Spahn Ranch front door. It just happened to suit the Zodiac, to present his rebuke of the FBI in that way.

Richard
2/26/2025 06:18:39 am

You're possibly a little more convinced than me on this 1978 letter Rubi, but for me there simply isn't enough info to be sure. You know me, I'm not a great advocate of the "tone" of a letter. Like you, I wish we had all 6 pages to digest. Plus the envelope. The timing is most interesting to me because Zodiac loved to poke his nose into other crimes. And then latched onto the award ceremonies on April 24th and May 2nd 1978. If Zodiac couldn't get the attention with murder anymore, the next best thing was linking himself to other murder investigations and "celebrities" like Diane Kennedy Pike, Paul Avery, Melvin Belli, David Toschi, Herb Caen, the Manson Family, Pat Boone, Eldridge Cleaver and Susan Atkins. This sort of name dropping increased as his murderous exploits faded away.

Johnny
2/26/2025 04:19:20 am

If the Mansons hadnt done their killings, i dont know if Zodiac would have done Beryessa with a knife.

The poster Oscar on the old Voigt board, if he was or wasnt the real Zodiac said, i think, that Zodiac didnt do Beryessa ( maybe Oscar/ Zodiac felt ashamed over the crime or hade left som evidence he was worried about. )

It would be interesting if someone with nice linguistic skills like Richard could analyse his writing. Maybe we could get a hit!

I see four possibilities with Oscar,

1. He really was Zodiac.

2. Its was a scheme so that people would be take notice of Gaikowski. Blaine could be the one writing aswell.

3. He was a poster that wanted people to believe that he was guilty. But if thats the case, he used really advanced psychology ( ! ), because he seemed terrified when people suspected things he said.

4. He knew more of the case then anyone else. Who was he?



EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/3/2025 10:27:50 am

@Johnny,

I was also a poster on that trash board. And many assumed I was the Zodiac, even though I would continually post that I was definitely not the Zodiac.

I considered myself to be one of only a few people that got inside the mind of the Zodiac.

Sir Richard has already commented on analyzing writing for "tone". I would agree with his sentiment to a degree.

Tone is one component. But it's not the totality, and not a significant enough of a component to create any kind of "Fingerprint". A cryptographer like the Zodiac, IMO, would know this, and would provide such a "Fingerprint", in addition to the "tone" that he normally uses.

That would be a significant difference in my opinion.

Johnny
2/26/2025 04:28:17 am

Yes, Oscar could ofcourse be Gaikowski aswell, either as the murderer or that he just wanted to talk about it.

His audio interview with Blaine is very suspicious, when he says that he is not interested in things like the Zodiac. He sounds very, very guilty when he is saying that.

Johnny
2/26/2025 05:41:57 am

This is a rather interesting post from Oscar regarding what we have talked about on here:

"You can find this material at a large library with a comprehensive microfiche archive. This is where I got a lot of the original newspaper stories about the case."

Oscar again:

"Being Welsh myself (Oscar is my pen name), I can assure you that there is no definitive Welsh "look"....This would account for the Mediterranean ( my own notification: Tarbox! Richard Burton! ) look that some Welshmen enjoy...

See this!:...Now, if he was walking down the street singing a Tom Jones tune (sans panties, of course)while salivating over a plate of rarebit, then I could see this happening. It leads me to believe that Foukes and co. did indeed get much closer to Z than many would believe. Perhaps if they did exchange words- and I would bet my griffin that they did- the "Welsh" tag may have come from the traces of an accent.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040408080205/http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/zt/152.html

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/26/2025 07:02:15 am

This will be hard for me to articulate, because it involves me talking about a possible flaw in my thinking, and for me to talk about my biases and prejudices as it comes to this case and some suspects.

I've seen things, and have come to learn things. Things that my mind has made connections for, that I have trouble articulating only in writing. At least writing in fora.

It could be said, that this could be "confusion" or one of my two favorite words when it comes to this case. "Pareidolia" and "Apophenia".

But before I dive off that board into an empty pool. I'll just restate. In my opinion, some of the suspects that are put forth in the community are just so egregious.

They are simply not sophisticated enough. Some of them, even rubes. And the promulgation of some of these suspects, in my opinion, help to cloud the true signal of the voice of the Zodiac. Of what he was actually trying to do.

To put another way, the Zodiac was actually a victim of his own success. He outsmarted everyone into looking at the wrong people. Even people who himself would be offended at being compared to.

This could have further motivated him to both kill, and to narcissistically brag that he killed, to confirm that it was him and not these "others" that he may have felt did not deserve the same newspaper space as him.

That's just my opinion.

I feel like so many of these suspects don't pass muster. This is why I mentioned that some of the work Sir Richard was doing, seeking motive and seeing if connections to other murders were relevant is a valid endeavor.

This act is sort of "breaking" that "box" that many put themselves in. Not realizing that they're demonstrating a form of "lower quality intelligence".

It would be the equivalent of a small animal seeing a box being held up by a stick, and willingly walking under the box and waiting for the stick to be pulled out.

Why trap yourself in a box?

I'll tell you why. It's intellectually soothing, and helps one to feel like they're now in a more manageable situation, with defined edges, as opposed to accepting that you don't know, and can't understand that something like radio waves would penetrate that box (and beyond), and are real, even though you can't perceive them.

But someone who is aware of radio signals could cut through all the noise and bickering. But imagine having to explain to hamsters that radio waves are real, even though they can't see them?

You would seem mad! Also you would be talking to hamsters ;-p

LOL. Reading that back, makes no sense at al. Or perhaps it does ;-)

Johnny
2/26/2025 07:24:39 am

Im rather happy to be the hamster, Ed. I know i am the hamster actually. Booohhhh!!!

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/26/2025 11:09:07 am

No offense was meant @Johnny.

All are welcome in the menagerie. Snakes and hamsters and all.

Johnny
2/26/2025 07:47:20 pm

I know that. You are very clear in a good way when you write, so there will be no misunderstanding.

I will at the same time answer you here instead of in the other article about our "normal/ abnormal" discussion, and once again tell you that i really was impressed and not only told you so because i wanted to be nice.

The thing that impresses me with your thinking, is that it is both gradual ( an individuals trajectory over time ) and definitive ( duality between normal and abnormal ) at the same time. I guess you have been tired when hearing my almost mystical theories of internal thinking that suddenly just exploded in spectacular crimes, but this has only been my way of explaining it.

No, i do think that brains are wired different just as you say. And i also believe that perhaps Zodiac might have on of these abnormal brains. At least he doesnt seem to be especially sensitive at all, very uncaring he seems, but i cant say for certain how and why he has become that way.

I really like Rubis sick child theory though.


EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/27/2025 07:16:55 am

Tx again for the kind words Johnny. Your writing improves as well, the more you write and the more I read.

About your mystical theories, I can't say that I'm tired of it. I'm not sure I'm aware of it. I would be very interested in a mystical theory. I have one of my own. It's actually central. It's what the Zodiac was in my opinion.

The issue I might have, about suddenly exploding spectacularly into view -- is, that doesn't track with science. It doesn't mean you may not be right, that's what chance, probability, and luck are. It just means that you would need to explain that. Or you could show where all other serial killers followed this track. Which makes sense, as that's how patterns work. Being able to perceive pattens as I mentioned is tricky for some, depending on quality of intelligence. That's what intelligence is, perceiving signal out of noise.

My fear is that, many who believe this "Superman Paradox", might not be aware, that they are falling for a "magic trick". What do I mean?

The Zodiac said, he would no longer broadcast his murders. It's very simple. He's saying that he would do this going forward, so what would have stopped him, from doing this before?

I've stated this elsewhere. Watchers of the TV show "Madmen" will understand this. Also anyone growing up, possibly with a military family, or other peripatetic situations would know what it's like to go from place to place and to slightly tweak your personality. To change your persona when you arrived at a new school per se. You could be different. You could be special. You could reinvent yourself. No one would know.

You could be one type of personality in Ohio, and a completely different persona in San Francisco. Add to that if you backtrack by timeline to when the Zodiac would have been younger, a paper trail is very hard to track, if you are who you say you are, or if you are not.

My very strong opinion, is that this simple mind trick (This is why I speak about intelligence, and object permanence) This person simply traveled around, changed their name and committed murders.

They got better over time, and no one would be the wiser, unless they backtracked this person extensively to see where he went and that odd occurrences would follow him. Pretty simple.

People of a certain age, may remember, multiple tv shows at the time did this as the point of their plots. Shows like "The Incredible Hulk", and "Kung fu". It's almost a cliche. But with time being lost, and those ideas not really taking hold, it's possible that methodology and thinking would be lost as well.

It's ok for you to think that brains are not wired differently. However, it might be a challenge for you to go against decades of science and rigor. It might make your argument extremely difficult if not impossible and incredulous. But there's always a chance. I'm not making a claim about brains, I'm simply referencing what's already out there for anyone to read and understand from basic science. This would help to be taken seriously.

It's not me, it's science.

My opinion is, the Zodiac became that way, because of behavioral, pathological, science. He was possibly born different. He may have had a damaged or smaller amygdala -- typical as an indicator of sociopathic tendencies. If you tie that with someone with a high I.Q., that's a dangerous and deadly combination.

That's how you get a Zodiac. It's not magic, or mystical. It's logic and science.

That's how I see it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I haven't looked at this capriciously. And I don't have one reason or two. I have many.

My name isn't IsuspectEdwards or I'mintriguedbyEdEdwards. Heck, my name isn't even I'vefoundanEdEdwardsCipher.

I chose Ed Edwards Cipher(s) plural, for a reason.

A cipher, requires thinking, math, precision, and planning.

One is an occurrence, twice is a pattern, three times is on purpose.

I've not seen any other suspect that is connected to murders, letters, and patterns in those letters that bear resemblance to things resembling the Zodiac.

So I ask you, if your suspect that you follow, is trailed by murders that precede the timeline of the Zodiac, and also come AFTER the Zodiac timeline. And all of those murders have strange letters that are entwined in those murder cases. And a bunch of those letters all contain patterns that are similar to all of the communications sent by "THE ZODIAC".

Wouldn't you think he was the Zodiac too?

Johnny
2/27/2025 06:15:52 pm

I would, Ed, and he might be Zodiac aswell. I cant say anything about the words you mention though, but i have read Camerons book about Edwards, and i have also followed his former "friend" Bujok on here. I think Camerons book was a moneyplot or him going totally crazy. The whole book reads like a plot to make money. Your analysis, Ed, reads sincere, but if your correct or not i cant say, sorry.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 07:32:07 am

@Johnny,

As it pertains to Cameron. I read his book, and I came away with a very different take than you. It was written in a hurry. And now, I get why.

We're all in a race, to figure out and confirm who the Zodiac is. Everyone is in a race to be the first, and to identify him.

Cameron will go down in history, as the person that did find the Zodiac, but strangely enough was not believed.

When I came across what he was saying, light bulbs started to go off for me. As I went further and further into that research, and into this community, I saw a bit more of the competition between all in this "cottage industry"

Some of the most famous people in this community, from the outside, appear to be wannabe influencers and "cottage industry" circuit riders. Selling podcasts, mugs, and t-shirts. Oh and books. They like to sell books. Especially about their daddy's being the Zodiac, or as you've seen even in this forum "The Zodiac attacked me, and I'm a woman".

This is another pattern in this community. Just in this forum alone, is the 3rd if not 4th person I've come across -- that definitely, positively, absolutely was sexually attacked by the Zodiac. For sure. And that's what a sexually assaulted person does. They come to forums about a decades old serial killer and confirm that's who attacked them. Because THAT will get results.

Cameron's book itself, as I read it for perhaps the 2nd time, lacked a few things. Not facts, it lacked polish, and even had some grammatical errors. That's when I slowly started to realize that's why he wrote it. It was rushed, to get it out there. He subsequently reissued it. But it was all good, because his claim was staked. Which was the point.

His book makes several claims. All of which I can't back up.

But what if I could back up one? A few? Some?

My own research, coming at it from a different perspective, with my own lived experiences, which I slowly realized had weird alignments with this stuff. It all started to get very strange for me.

If you haven't heard me say this before, I'm not traditionally what one would think of as someone in this community. It gives me a unique perspective.

No offense is meant by this, but. I don't wanna be here. I don't like any of this stuff. I didn't come here to argue on a forum (that is not a real place) with someone who is confused that she was sexually assaulted and thinks this is the place to come to for all of that.

I think all of this stuff is strange, and weird, and not for me.

Which is why it's all the more bizarre, that I can see what I can see, when so many in my opinion can't or won't.

But again, perhaps that's why I'm needed?

Once I can better express, what is pretty clear to me, but doesn't translate well to most. Once I'm able to do that. You'll hear much less from me.

I look forward to that sweet relief. Perhaps others will too will be, to be relieved of me ;-p

EdEdwardsCiphers link
3/3/2025 10:33:37 am

@Johnny,

I believe I might have been actively posting when this person posted.

I did not get any indication that this person had any unique insight into the case.

Jibber for the longest time would post on the site, and was one of the very few that was contributive and showed that they were earnest in their endeavors.

That site is pure trash.

Remember high school?

Imagine under the high school, where the loser kids would go smoke dope and sell drugs. Being dopey, and doped up, and smoking and hallucinating, and telling themselves stories about who and what they are, and not realizing how way off they will be in what they will become in life, because of what they're wallowing in?

Them and the friends that surrounded them would be considered less than contributory to society?

That's what that site is.

They're led by someone who is a substitute teacher, that enables all of that behavior, but the loser kids, think is the cool adult. When in actuality, this would be a terrible person poisoning society.

That's what small void is.

Rubislaw32 link
2/26/2025 06:28:22 am

''If the Mansons hadn't done their killings, I don't know if Zodiac would have done Berryessa with a knife.''.

Certainly I believe an element of truth to that, Johnny. The Mansons ''upped the bar'' for the Zodiac. But there is also the element of the Zodiac running out of guns. Over his summer break, he looked at Berryessa & Presidio Heights as a ''double project'' - but with just one gun left.

The gun he presented to Bryan as a threat at Berryessa, was the one he used to execute Paul on Washington St. I believe investigators ended up in little doubt over this.

The Zodiac knew at Berryessa that if he actually felt forced to use his gun - then his ''Presidio Heights project'' forthcoming, was scuppered.

By December 1969, the cops were looking for 3 guns & sword dagger. But, next to no chance of finding them.

I believe ''no guns left'' contributed to a downward spiral into depression for the Zodiac, culminating in his Melvin Belli letter.

The two Fairfield letters of December 1969 were just ''empty bravado'' for the Zodiac.

ZODCOM
2/26/2025 02:17:53 pm

@Rub32, check out "A Venture Into Darkness" again.
Left you something there. If you ask me, but you didn't, I would recommend the following music track:
"Tom Waits - Hoist That Rag"
To make that reading even more enjoyable...xtraloud over skullphones, of course :)

Rubislaw32 link
2/26/2025 02:41:24 pm

Thanks for the tip, ZODCOM. I'll check that out.

Rubislaw32 link
2/27/2025 07:33:02 am

A ''Ted Kennedy Clincher'' for the Zodiac ?

December 16th 1969 - 2nd Fairfield letter :

''I will go for Goverment life so don't foreget me.''.

Mary Jo Kopechne died July 19th 1969, Chappaquiddick. Cause of death: Suffocation. Abandoned by Senator Ted Kennedy.

August 19th 1970: Anonymous letter to Ted Kennedy:

Address:

TED KENNEDY
GOVERMENT CENTER
BOSTON MASS

Refer: Senator Edward ''Ted'' Kennedy FBI File 7 , Page 32.

Rubislaw32 link
2/27/2025 07:56:46 am

Controversy rules OK when it constructively focuses:

1) I will go for Goverment life so don't foreget me.

2 ) I AM NOT AFRAID OF THE GAS CHAMBER BECAASE IT WILL SEND ME TO PARADLCE ALL THE SOOHER.

'' 1) '' is unconfirmed.

'' 2) '' is pure fantasy.

Johnny
2/27/2025 10:57:48 pm

Could "i will go for government life" be ironic and hinting at maybe Zodiac was right wing? Ted was a democrat, so you maybe found something there, Rubi. Maybe Zodiac was angry at the progressive society and the whole welfare system and thought that "high-ups" in government used a system that he disliked.

Rubislaw32 link
2/27/2025 11:56:24 pm

On that matter, Johnny, I can only offer an opinion:

I think the Zodiac was consoling himself that if caught, he would agree to a plea deal of whole truth - on the basis of accepting a life sentence in return. But, secretly I think he was very concerned - that for instance, he might fall victim to an ''accident'', while in custody.

Lee Harvey Oswald came to mind.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
2/28/2025 07:47:51 am

@Johnny,

About the "Goverment life" reference. I believe you nailed it right on the head. I think this is one, of many dots that connect, that support your statement.

P.S.

Using violence or threats of violence to achieve political or ideological ends, is currently considered domestic terrorism.

I've no doubt, that by today's modern definition of domestic terrorism, Zodiac would be considered one.

Johnny
2/27/2025 09:25:42 pm

Skullphones x-tra loud that was a pleasant sentence to read! Maybe Lucy in the sky with diamonds would suit aswell in that headgear!? Just take it easy with the brownstuff and the stamps though Zodcom, so we still may enjoy yours and Rubis wonderful thought pattern here with us on earth!

Rubislaw32 link
2/28/2025 12:34:13 am

Thank you, Johnny. We just press ahead with our propensity for curiosity, and see what comes ?

On the controversy of Jack Ruby's actions:

All he is ever claimed about in referring to his murder of Oswald, was:

''I got the call, and then I knew what I had to do.''

Ruby, a nightclub owner, was heavily in debt. It seems that he had secret service contacts, on account of them frequenting his nightclub. It is presumed that he was contacted - and in return for this ''favour'', all his financial concerns would be taken care of. And, he might be pardoned at a later date - albeit accepting a lengthy spell inside.

A journalist about ten years ago, put forward the notion that LB Johnson put it out that the American people owed Jackie Kennedy the ''sparing'' of become the key eye-witness of her husband's murder, having to turn up in court for Oswald's trial. Effectively, in front of the whole world. It would only reduce the trial to a veritable circus, anyway.

Unspecified agents then knew they had to find a candidate assassin of Oswald. And Ruby was approached.

Of interest, perhaps, is that the FBI state in their files that Melvin Belli became Ruby's legal defender, after receiving a call from Frank Sinatra. Sinatra had agreed to speak up on behalf of Ruby's brother, asking Sinatra to help Ruby.


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Photos from Marcin Wichary, zAppledot, vyusseem, Alex Barth, Alan Cleaver, jocelynsart, Richard Perry, taberandrew, eschipul, MrJamesAckerley