ZODIAC CIPHERS
RICHARD GRINELL, COVENTRY, ENGLAND
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AN ESCAPE EASTWARDS TO LYON STREET

1/7/2025

 
PictureRobert Graysmith
Although Chief Martin Lee ridiculed the idea that the Zodiac entered the Presidio Park, it appeared that Inspectors David Toschi and Bill Armstrong weren't so dismissive according to Robert Graysmith, who wrote "The detectives heard from neighbors that a stocky figure was seen dashing across Julius Kahn playground and into the dense undergrowth of the Presidio. The dog patrol units, seven of the best search dogs in the country, gathered at the front entrance of the Presidio and were deployed one at a time in various directions. Armstrong and Toschi considered the possibilities. Had the killer gone quickly through the dark woods and emerged from the Presidio at Richardson Avenue, and taken Highway 101 past Fort Point onto the Golden Gate Bridge and vanished into Marin County". The thoughts of Toschi and Armstrong were well founded, especially when you consider that the man seen running into the Julius Kahn Playground carried an extremely similar description to the one given by Officer Donald Fouke and the three Robbins kids. 

If the Zodiac Killer had entered the park here, it is highly unlikely he would have backtracked in a westerly direction towards the crime scene. An escape route north on foot to escape the park would have been extremely time consuming. The detail given by the Zodiac Killer in his November 9th 1969 letter (if true), suggests that once he entered the park at Julius Kahn Playground he headed east, where in the wooded section opposite Laurel Street, he observed dogs that never came within 2 blocks of him, because they were to the west. Two blocks west was Julius Kahn Playground, where "seven of the best search dogs in the country, gathered at the front entrance of the Presidio". The Zodiac Killer's claim in his letter was correct that dogs were assembled by​ Julius Kahn Playground, but this detail had been released in the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper as early as October 15th 1969, which stated "A large contingent of police with dogs and searchlights secured the area around Cherry Street, which included the wooded south boundary of the Presidio and Julius Kahn Playground. So any escape through the park in a westerly direction, two blocks towards Cherry would have been highly unlikely. 

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The Zodiac Killer, after stating "The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west", mentioned that "there was only 2 groups of parking (or barking)". Did he lift this information from the newspapers which reported a "large contingent of police and dogs with searclights" by Cherry Street and Julius Kahn Playground, which was "two groups"? Or was he able to see the searchlights at these approximate locations as he hid in the park? Motorcycles and police cars were mobilized to circle Presidio Park to restrict the movements of the killer, but according to the Zodiac in his October 13th 1969 letter they were "holding road races" instead of "quietly waiting for him to come out of cover". He further elaborated on this on November 9th 1969, stating "the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west".

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If the Zodiac Killer had continued eastwards through the park from the wooded area opposite Laurel Street, he would have reached Presidio Boulevard, where  police motorcycles would have been traveling from the "south to north west" (see map below). The two yellow circles on the map show two positions exactly 150 feet from Presidio Boulevard, so if the Zodiac Killer was at either of these locations he would have been in prime position, nestled in the woods, with the ability to observe motorcycles traveling along the roadway, and ready to escape from the park to the nearby Lyon Street, which was 370 feet from Presidio Boulevard. 

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If Robert Graysmith was correct, this thought process must have been considered by Toschi and Armstrong, who conceived the notion of a killer heading towards Richardson Avenue, traveling west on Highway 101, and over the Golden Gate Bridge. The only difference to my analysis, is that they thought the killer may have emerged from the Presidio at Richardson Avenue. However, this would have required the Zodiac Killer to have spent an excessive amount of time in the park, rather than exiting from the south-eastern corner and entering a vehicle parked on Lyon Street. From here, in a vehicle, he would have reached Richardson Avenue in a much quicker time.       
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The Zodiac could have combined his experience from that night with maps and the coverage in the newspapers in the intervening four weeks, to concoct a reasonable story of his excursion into the park. However, the description of the man running into Julius Kahn Playground near-matched the description given by the teenagers at the crime scene and Officer Donald Fouke. So if the Zodiac Killer had entered the park at this location, he had to go somewhere. That safest somewhere, based on the police search, would most likely have been east in the direction of Lyon Street and Broadway.  
JIbberjabber
1/7/2025 10:35:18 am

timeline of all personnel involved in the search for the killer would help here, eg we have read that MPs from the Presidio also got involved in the search but Zodiac does not mention them. Is that because they had not been deployed yet?

He also did mention the fire truck that was there - so when did that come along relative to the police cars, motorcycles and Presidio MPs

I am surprised none of this information has ever come down to us. Why didnt Graysmith or any other investigative reporter ever try and get an interview with one of the dog handlers, or the cops on the cars / bikes, or one of the MPs from the base, or someone from the SF fire service

those people took part in a search for the (now) most famous unidentified serial killer in the US, you would think they would have wanted to hve told someone of their small part in it.

Obviously on the night it was likely nothing too out of the ordinary (sadly because of the high murder rate in a place like San Francisco) but in a very short space of time they must have realised they were all on the hunt for the Zodiac killer.

Who were these people and why have they never come forward to any journalist, podcast, amataeur researcher etc

Richard
1/7/2025 02:55:28 pm

Look at this from the police report Jibber:
"P.E.H. ambulance #82 responded, steward Dousette, victim was examined and pronounced dead at 10:10 pm. Inspector Krake responded and summoned dog units and a fire department 'spotlight' vehicle to assist in the search".

If this is chronological, then the fire truck was only summoned after 10:10pm. Zodiac left the cab about 9:56pm, he is at the intersection of Jackson & Maple about 9:59pm. A journey from here for 1 1/2 blocks to Julius Kahn playground is about 3 minutes, so it would now be 10:02pm. A journey 2 blocks through the park east to opposite Laurel Street could be 4/5 minutes. Giving him 5 minutes, it would now be 10:07pm. So my question is how does Zodiac spot a firetruck with searclights at 10:07pm from the woods by Laurel St, when the firetruck hadn't been requested by Inspector Krake until after 10:10pm (if the police report is chronological and accurate). If Zodiac continued east to Presidio Boulevard it would be about another 4 minutes max, with the time now 10:11pm. If he bided his time here, this could have been the only possibility of Zodiac seeing firetrucks, if they were requested around 10:10pm and arrived at the Presidio very quickly. Did the presidio have its own firetrucks in situ. It's a very tight timeline. But it's just about possible.

Richard
1/7/2025 03:03:48 pm

Either that, or Officer Fouke stopped and delayed Zodiac not for a brief exchange, but longer. Therefore making Zodiac's entry into the park a little later. If only we knew the exact time the eyewitnesses at Spruce saw the man running into the Julius Kahn Playground. If that had been well beyond 10:02pm, then Zodiac would had to have been delayed during his journey to the park, giving Donald Fouke more questions to answer.

Richard
1/7/2025 03:29:58 pm

Or, of course, Zodiac was lying about remaining in the park. We can't be sure he didn't run into the park and only remained there briefly, before exiting and going somewhere else. I timed Zodiac's journey from the time he crossed paths with Fouke to the time he would have been at the northern tip of Spruce St. If Fouke had continued from Jackson to Arguello Blvd, onto West Pacific Avenue towards Julius Kahn Playground with sirens on and lights flashing, this time taken for Fouke would have been similar to Zodiac's. The occupants of Spruce may have been alerted to sirens approaching and passing Julius Kahn Playground, so opened their curtains briefly. Zodiac, who was somewhere in Spruce may have run into the park noticing the sirens of a cop car approaching or passing Spruce, so took an opportune moment to run into the park, getting noticed by the curtain twitchers. Why else would residents notice a man running into a park at 10pm at night, when their curtains would have been drawn. Also, why would Zodiac amble away from the crime scene, casually walk along Jackson and then start running into the park when he's at his furthest from the crime scene. Did the cop car of Fouke approaching or passing the location on West Pacific Avenue spook him.

EdEdwardsCiphers
1/10/2025 06:44:57 am

Excellent question as always Jibber. I would be interested to hear from those people. Their stories while anecdotal would be interesting in the way that the Zodiac documentary was, with many of the players.

JIbberjabber
1/8/2025 10:01:58 am

Another interesting thing would be to know how long the search went on for, ie how long were the police motorcycles riding through the park, and the dogs, how long did the fire truck stay etc

he puts enough information in his letter to make me think it cold be true, but the fact he makes the comment about they should have waited for him to come out of cover makes me wonder (like you) if he was in the park then how long was he there for?

I would think MPs from the army base would be the last to join the search as someone would have had to phone their commander, who would have had to contact them, then devise a search plan etc

I could see the search carrying on easy for 2/3/4+ hours

did he really evade all the search effort for all that time, or was he simply not there

why he does not mention the MPs is puzzling me, makes me think he may have been gone by that time.

I am prepared to accept because we do not know who Zodiac is, he could have casually asked people in the area about the shooting the next day and they could have mentioned they saw dogs, cops on bikes, cops in cars, MPs on foot, a fire truck etc

but one thing i do not believe for a second anyone would say is the specific trvel distances and directions referring to cardinal points of the compass. "Normal(!)" people simply do not talk like that in coversation

if ZOdiac's descriptio of the search patters is correct then to me that is the strongest evidence he was there - somewhere - long enough to observe the search. But I dont necessary believe he was in the park all night, at the same time I dont think he necessarily escaped the park as fast as he could, unless how was it he saw the dogs and could describe the motorcycle search patterns

I have wondered if he ran into the park, ran out to a nearby car, but then drove somwhere where he could sit and observe the search. WHether that is anywhere in Presidio Heights or he went somwhere with higher elevation

I would like to know if they were stopping cars in and out of the area, set up road blocks etc I dont think they did. So if Zodiac did get to a car, provided he was not stupid enough to drive onto Cherry St I believe he could have been parked up anywhere in Presidio Heights watching the search.

JIbberjabber
1/8/2025 10:08:53 am

would just add here - I think this is maybe the one time his choice of language could have something of the militaty/police about it

quoting times, distances, search patterns and using comabt sounding terms like "come out of cover" etc

the level of description is just an order of magnitude higher than I think most people would use. It is like he is reporting on the search, not just mentioning it he is relaying information that he wants the police to privately verify.

I dont know who he was or what he did, but this person was trained in observation and reporting IMO

Richard
1/9/2025 02:39:06 am

In his July 31st, August 4th and October 13th letters, I don't see any lies. He threatened to kill a dozen people but this wasn't a lie, it was a boast that didn't come to fruition. Everything up to November 9th appeared all about "proof" he was the murderer - and yes - his November 9th letter could have been a lie about what he did in the park, but he didn't write the October 12th Chronicle article describing a man running into the park, that matched the other eyewitness descriptions. So it's pretty evident he did enter the park and Chief Martin Lee was either deliberately attempting to rile the Zodiac into more communications or he was totally misinformed in his views. Zodiac certainly never lied about his location when "running into" Donald Fouke either. Could he have benefited from mocking the police about him travelling through the park - absolutely - but he could equally have felt compelled to rebuff Chief Martin Lee's lies. The police completely omitted the story of the two cops from any of their accounts of that night, they blatantly hid the "mix up" of the telephone call when the Robbins kids rang in until November 1970, only calliing it a "mix up" and not mentioning the black male scenario. They have never mentioned the dispatcher's name, and produced a private memorandum making a point of underlining the word "negro", and wrote part of it in the third person. We also have the inexplicable statement attributed to Fouke in the memorandum of "I don't know whether he saw the subject or not" about a partner closest to the sidewalk and not driving. None of the Jackson St encounter ever made the newspapers. So who do I believe, the police or Zodiac? On this one I go with Zodiac, and yes, I agree with you that he may have observed some of the activity from beyond the park. He could even have driven near the crime scene if he was reckless. Or as you said, picked up snippets of information from people in the intervening month.

The Zodiac was all about location and was compass aware throughout his communications, such as "her feet to the weat", "if you go one mile east", "two miles north of park headquarters", "the motorcycles went by going from south to northwest" and his map and Mount Diablo code. To me, it appears that he was determined to provide proof rather than lying. This was born out with the car door at Berryessa and Stine shirt piece. Zodiac certainly entered the park, how long he was there is another matter entirely.

EdEdwardsCiphers
1/10/2025 07:03:08 am

Many have surmised that the Zodiac had to have military training. From a psychological makeup standpoint I think that makes the most sense too.

Those to me are the strongest suspects. The Venn diagram of military capabilities and this Unsub in particular overlap.

EdEdwardsCiphers
1/10/2025 07:00:29 am

Great questions again Jibber. And as always, demonstrating an intellect.

While I don't have any answers, I find for some reason, as it pertains to this case, I always immediately tend to think like the criminal.

Meaning, while many wonder what he could have done, I always find myself thinking "How would I get away with this here, in this instance, if it were me."

For ex. The first thing I think of, in terms of how, and did he leave and get away -- is the dogs.

The dogs present an existential logical threat. Sniffing him out is almost like a logic exercise. The dogs would detect him, if they got a scent from the cab. That might be a big if. But the sniffing, and the threat of triangulating to find him, would be existential to him.

If I'm thinking like the criminal, and I had gotten any sense of them possibly using dogs, then I know I either have to surround myself with items and surfactants like paint thinner, or kerosene, or gasoline (perhaps in my garage or work area, especially if I'm like a construction or carpenter or handyman type).

Or I perhaps would seek to cross a body of water, that may remove the scent capability of the dog.

But that's just me.

Jibberjabber
1/10/2025 08:23:33 am

That is what I keep thinking about too, how did he evade the dogs - is that even possible? We know the dogs were there I have seen it in at least 2 independent articles. If they really were the best in the country how come they didn't sniff him out! I don't believe he had any specific dog evasion tools in his utility belt! That is the part I struggle to reconcile with. Or is it a question of search area? He says the dogs never came within 2 blocks away,, was he too far for them to smell, I would have thought specialist search dogs would likely have noses with longer ranges than that. Unless he was literally beyond the point the dogs could pick up his scent, I would have to say he was already out of the park during the dog search. Zodiac may be intelligent but I don't accept he can out-scent 7 of the best tracking dogs in the country. So out of the park but not necessarily away Scot free just yet

Jibberjabber
1/10/2025 08:51:19 am

Something else I am also pondering is how much escape time did Zodiac assume he had? Ie if the Robbins' hadn't seen him so they never called the police,when would the body of poor Paul Stine have been found? Minutes, hours,next morning? We know Zodiac thought he had time to get where he was going and be unobserved because he simply walked away it seems. Walked north on cherry then turned east to continue at a walking pace. Was Julias khan park always his intended destination or did he literally only take "cover" in there once he knew police were alerted? There were other places he could have crossed the road to be next to the presidio wall, but was the Julius khan entrance the first place east of the crime scene where he could actually access the park, or does/did the JK park have its own boundary which means just because he was in that part does not mean he had easy access to the rest of the presidio proper? Just wondering if going into the park was Plan B or was it always his destination? 🤔

EdEdwardsCiphers
1/10/2025 10:05:06 am

That's why I mentioned those 2 things for the dogs. Very unscientific research on my part tells me dogs have problems with two things:

(learned from prison break tv shows -- very scientific)

1. Prisoners always cross the river when the dogs are chasing them, to lose the scent. Do we know of any large bodies of water that were nearby? Perhaps in driving distance? Perhaps with a bridge over it?

2. Surfactants and certain pollutants of the Kerosine or gasoline family will create a kind of -- wall of smell through which dogs senses may not penetrate (I'm not a veterinarian I just watch them on tv).

If I'm a handyman, I'm familiar with these, and I have them in my garage. Things like Turpentine, or paint thinner. I would have these accessible.

I would get creative with my clothes, a possible shower, use of the items in my garage or workspace. These clothes doused in turpentine may become almost invisible to scent detection.

I would also make use of a car that I might happen to have nearby, and take a joyride with a great view over some bridge, with a nice view of the water. The water providing a secondary, wall of stopping scent detection from flowing over it. I dunno.

I might come back home a few days later. Home obviously being the Presidio and get right back to my regular ways. Maybe I would even put a scare into those kids that may have identified me.

If I lived there that is. No one knows for sure. It's just speculation.

Richard link
1/10/2025 11:09:56 am

"Every track has its own characteristics, we call this a track picture. It takes most dogs 50 to 100 yards of following a track to lock on to the track picture of a particular track. Once a trained dog has locked onto a track many can then scent discriminate that track picture from others. Some dogs are better at this than others. But no dog that I have ever seen can consistently scent objects and then pick that track from a group of tracks".

It's possible that the dogs did track a scent, but if the dogs are leashed to a cop at walking speed, the Zodiac will always be out of reach if they don't radio ahead. If we really believe the Robbins kids saw Zodiac at the corner of Jackson & Cherry and pointed him out to Pelissetti, even he didn't radio ahead to cut Zodiac off down Jackson. It's possible Zodiac was on the margins of the park or just beyond, heard barking and saw the firetruck spotlights, but used the newspaper reports mentioning groups at Cherry and Julius Kahn playground as added detail. But just because his description matched the newspapers doesn't necessarily mean he was lying. I think Zodiac realized the crime scene had been discovered the moment he heard or saw the cop car of Fouke approaching that way along Jackson. He was possibly just past the midpoint of that block when he heard sirens or saw flashing lights. That would have been 9:58pm, two minutes after he left the cab, and three minutes after the murder.

JIbberjabber
1/10/2025 12:10:29 pm

plus there is always this mystical man seen running into the park (if that is accurate) trying to outscent dogs is an interesting idea but fuels like kerosene, gasoline etc create a pretty strong stink themselves. I always bring this up when I can, but the Black Dahlia Avenger soaked the belongings of Elizabeth SHort in gasoline when he mailed them to the newspaper in LA, the police theorised it was an anti detection measure and the killer was forensically aware*. If zodiac was wiping the cab down with a cloth, but had some solvents on him I have to think he would likely have used it to make sure he completely obliterted the prints. Oviously he could have missed some, but if he had solvent on him and didnt use it to clean the cab (if he did I think someone would have smelled it) I have to wonder how would he know in advance he may be hunted by dogs? he walked away casually so I think police dogs was the last thing on his mind at 9:58 PM or whever he left the cab

* the police lifted a full set of fingerprints off the first mailing by the alleged Black Dahlia Avenger, which HAS to be the killer because he phoned the editor of the newspaper the day before to say he would send them - he even called it "material" (remember more material?) those prints were never identified. My question is were they ever checked against the Paul Stine prints?

I have emailed the FBI, LAPD about this and written to them with examplars showing similarity between the letters and have never recieved a reply.

EdEdwardsCiphers link
1/11/2025 08:15:00 am

Jibber, that clew was for you.

Theoretically, if your theory was correct. If BDA was "forensically aware" and if he was also Zodiac, that skillset of understanding the uses of petrol based products would never have left him.

He would always understand its uses. In fact it would probably only deepen over time.

That notwithstanding, kerosene on his person may not have been explicitly required. I think of a drinking flask that some may have carried on them. Alcohol may have some properties that may be useful in wiping things away. All while still somewhat socially acceptable and a very healthy alibi. Or perhaps the flask could mask something stronger. Who knows?

As far as knowing ahead of time, and walking away so casually -- I posit that such a confident stride may be bolstered by the killer actually having a residence nearby. A safe house perhaps?

Why rush, when you're only steps away from where you live?

That place that is nearby, which is where you live, would contain those petrol based products. Shower. Douse the clothes. Speed away in your car that was parked right there. Or who knows? Bus, truck, bike?

Lots of possibilities. It's why no one knows.


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