A FLOWER ON THE FRONT GATE

3/9/2025

REPRESENTATION

On the same day, March 13th 1978, that somebody claiming to be the Zodiac Killer rang a man in the Mission District of San Francisco declaring "This is the Zodiac. Tell the press that I am back in San Francisco" (which was recorded on an answering machine), somebody threatened a woman in the Taraval District of San Francisco. This person pinned a note and a flower on the front gate of her single dwelling with the message "You're next (The Zodiac Killers)". At a time when Zodiac occurrences should have been dwindling, two threats on the same day targeting individuals just a few miles from one another, could be argued as the same perpetrator. When you consider the similarity in messages between the March 13th 1978 phone call of "Tell the press that I am back in San Francisco", to the April 24th 1978 letter of "I am back with you. Tell herb caen I am here", it is not unreasonable to conclude one responsible for all three events. Whether this was the case or not.

The police logged the time of the threat in the Taraval District between 7:00am on March 13th 1978 and 12:30am on March 14th 1978. Therefore, the flower and threatening note must have been placed on her front gate during a 16 1/2 hour window of time. Sunset in San Francisco was 6:15pm, so if the perpetrator applied some caution, it is likely the note was pinned on her front gate sometime between 6:15pm and just after midnight. The phone call to the man in the Mission District was logged at 11:00pm, falling between these two times. Therefore, it is possible that these two "Zodiac Killer events" occurred within a reasonable time of one another - with 10pm to midnight being prime time for the Zodiac Killer under the cover of darkness. The individual who threatened the woman in the Taraval District could easily have made the phone call from this location. There was no need to travel to make the phone call to the Mission District.

On November 29th 1966, one month after the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, somebody (possibly the Zodiac Killer) mailed two typed Confession letters to the Riverside Homicide Detail and Riverside Press Enterprise. In each correspondence the claimed killer stated "She is not the first and she will not be the last. I lay awake nights thinking about my next victom. Maybe she will be the beautiful blond that babysits near the little store and walks down the dark alley each evening about seven". If the woman in the Taraval District of San Francisco was known to the perpetrator, had he targeted her with the express knowledge that she wasn't at home at the time, so as to avoid identification. She had been absent from her residence on March 13th 1978 because she was babysitting that day. Maybe he "did make that phone call to the man also".

If the author of the threatening note was the Zodiac Killer, did he target a random person, or did he choose somebody of significance that he knew would generate a response from the police and hopefully make its way into the newspapers. The last time a Zodiac note was found on a public street was on October 21st 1969, having been thrown from a car on Lake Mendocino Drive at 3:00 pm, just north of Ukiah, California (see newspaper clipping below). The note, attached to a twig, was thrown towards an eight-year-old girl with the crudely printed message "You're next - Z". The only difference between the note in the Taraval District of San Francisco and the note in Mendocino County was the signature, morphing from "You're next - Z" to "You're next (The Zodiac Killers)". The note in Mendocino County, whether the Zodiac or not, was seemingly piggybacking off the October 13th 1969 threat by the Zodiac Killer to target schoolchildren.

So did the woman he targeted with a note and flower in 1978 carry any significant value in his quest to hit the newspapers once again? Or did he just select a random member of the public, hoping his pseudonym alone was enough to generate the publicity he so badly craved? Or was it a hoaxer with nothing better to do with his life, who used the term "Zodiac Killers" to suggest he was separate to the original killer? Were the two occurrences in San Francisco on March 13th 1978 just coincidence? If not, we are back to where we started with two connected events, in which one appeared to pre-empt the message on the April 24th 1978 letter.

*The Taraval District is the city’s largest and most populous police jurisdiction, encompassing a large part of southwestern San Francisco. It is bordered by Golden Gate Park to the north, Ocean Beach to the west, Daly City to the south, and 7th Avenue down to Interstate 280 to the east. The district includes the inner and outer Sunset neighborhoods, as well as Parkside, Golden Gate Heights, Balboa Terrace, Ingleside Terrace, Monterey Heights, St. Francis Wood, Ingleside, Oceanview, West Portal, Lakeshore Acres, Country Club, Merced Manor, Park Merced, Edgehill, Laguna Honda, Lakeside, Merced Extension, Mount Davidson Manor and Sunset Heights. link.

EXTRACT FROM ZODIAC (1986), ROBERT GRAYSMITH

Johnny

3/9/2025 06:35:50 am

No one answers so i begin once again. I find it unusual why Toschi himself called the woman, why not let a secretary do this to calm her down? Or maybe she demanded him to call to get expert advice? Its possible. I guess they sent a patrol there to check it out and she wanted someone knowledgable to call her back later on to confirm?

Toschi seemed very much involved, maybe he composed those 3 letters or so thar Rick is suspecting was from the Zodiac.

I think that it would be a normal thing for the police to do, to lure Zodiac out once again. They knew he would probably be angry if they wrote and published in his name.

The note from -69 though is just a hoax i think, because Zodiac wouldn't have time or risk these things in -69. But the one from -78 could be Zodiac copying it.

Richard

3/9/2025 07:31:33 am

That goes to the heart of the question Johnny, if this was the Zodiac Killer (despite seeming unlikely), did David Toschi take the time to ring the woman based on who she was. Or was it simply a call to the woman from a consumate professional. Why didn't they keep the recording on the answering machine and play it to Hartnell, Slaight and Slover, which I assume was not done. Just like the Oklahoma radio call on December 7th 1969, when police didn't even bother to turn up to the radio station to retrieve the recording. Telling the woman that the note wasn't from Zodiac because of the handprinting, based on 5 words, is patently ludicrous. Whether this was just done to allay her fears who knows. But it's still a ridiculous statement.

I'll leave it to others to judge whether Toschi was responsible for the 1978 letter - for me Johnny - I treat the 1978 letter as genuine as the 340 cipher, July 31st letters and the Stine letter. When someone can give me 10 good reasons why the April 20th 1970 and March 13th 1971 letters are genuine, without invoking handwriting and tone, they may as well dismiss these letters as well.

Richard

3/9/2025 07:48:35 am

We have two incidents in San Francisco on March 13th 1978 with the pseudonym Zodiac at the centre of both, probably within a few hours of one another. Dave Toschi advised the woman to think back on any co-workers or neighbours that may have wanted to play a cruel prank on her. Bearing in mind that other incident that day with the phone call, wouldn't it have been logical to take the voice recording from the man in the Mission District and play it to the woman from the Taraval District to see if she recognised the voice. This could have answered the mystery. Also, did they follow up and see if the woman and man were known to one another, or had any overlapping hobbies, establishments they visited, or professions. If this was one individual, did he know both the people he targeted?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/9/2025 05:51:48 pm

I don't know @SirRichard.

I feel like the two could possibly be connected. It makes sense from a narrative view, that the Zodiac could have done it. However.

My bias, and the research that I've done, which has given me a sort of "picture" into how I think the Zodiac thinks has me feeling like something sticks in my craw, that he would ever write "killers" plural.

No one knows for sure of course, not only who the Zodiac was, but if there were more than one. But I have a hard time giving any credence to what I consider, a nutty professor's theory.

I'll tell you why.

Every thing I've uncovered, points to there not only just being a singular person, but the mission I believe I may have uncovered, speaks to the idea of being a singular "Great" person.

I have two reasons to believe this.

1. Based on what I've read just about the Zodiac canonical, and then based on the research into one specific suspect. All signs point to a Narcissist. Like the namesake Narcissus from the mythological story, this person is wholly enraptured by themselves. There is no room for anyone else in the mirror, that captured both Narcissus and Dorian Gray(smith?). See what I did there? ;-)

2. My belief, and my assertions, come from the work that I've done which has spoken to me, of a mind that understands innately, concepts from the world of cryptology and cryptography.

In the world of cryptology, identity is foundational. It wasn't really considered and identified as that at the time. It's more changed over time into that definition in the modern age. But the foundational principles are still the same.

Proof of ownership. Proof of stake. Authenticity (authentication).

With all that said. I've been wrong before. I've had major egg on my face, after believing I was sure of a thing. Only to realize, I indeed did fall into a rabbit hole, but luckily gained a foothold, pulled myself back up -- and saw which way the cotton tail was really going. He went thatttaway.

I could be wrong here. It could have been him. It could have been that he did write killer(s) plural.

I have one possible scenario where I believe there could be room for him to have done that, but it's not something I've done a deep dive into in order to verify it.

That is to say, I could not authenticate if he would sign his name in the plural and I feel that it would be antithetical to what I believe he was doing.

It might open up a thought that I had about a possibility. But the window for him to have done that, or for there being -- others that may have participated in his schemes, is pretty small. Others would not have survived him, is my belief.

That's just my opinion. As mentioned I've been wrong before. Sometimes wildly so.

;-)

Richard

3/10/2025 01:55:37 am

I too struggle with the idea that the real Zodiac Killer would use the term "The Zodiac Killers". Although I don't subscribe to the notion, is it possible the writing on the note read "The Zodiac Killer" and had a tail off that looked like an "s". Alternatively, did he use the term "Zodiac Killers" to distinguish himself from the killer of the past. The Zodiac Killer of the past didn't do many of the things we expected him to do, and did do things we never expected him to do, so I'm rather reticent in drawing the conclusion he wouldn't have written such a thing. Again, I doubt the flower escapade is Zodiac but I don't rule it out entirety.

We can both attest to reading statements such as Kathleen Johns or Donna Lass wasn't Zodiac because he'd never abducted a woman before (it isn't in his MO). People would have said the same thing about the Stine murder had no shirt piece or letter arrived. Had the October 13th letter arrived absent of a shirt piece, there would be people today arguing it wasn't Zodiac because it wasn't his MO. The argument that an action can't be somebody's because they had never performed this action previously is flawed. There is a first time for everything and not all serial killers follow a strict regime or pattern.

I suppose the bigger question Ed, is are the two statements of "Tell the press that I am back in San Francisco" iand "I am back with you. Tell herb caen I am here", just coincidence or the product of one mind. In other words, after 4 years, did a completely separate person issue the March 13th statement 42 days before the April 24th letter, and it was just luck that the two overlapped in language. At the height of Zodiac activity possibly, but in early 1978 how likely is it?

I accept the narcissistic traits of Zodiac appear contradictory to the use of "The Zodiac Killers" but Zodiac was anything but predictable. I can easily separate the flower threat from the equation, while still assessing the phone call as more credible.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 07:29:10 am

@SirRichard,

Excellent points all.

You've even managed to pull from my brain, the types of things I have hidden inside, but did not put forth as a subtext, that exists.

Exactly what you mention about the (s) to killer(s) makes perfect sense. This would be something I would think as well. This is why I STUDY the letters.

Unlike "graphologists" and "Questioned Documents Examiners" though, I'm not only looking at the strokes of the letters for pressures, and accents -- lilts, and tendencies.

I'm looking for much more on the page. I'm looking for puzzles that a non-linear thinker would create. I'm not focused on the single chess board in front of me. I'm looking at it from a higher "dimension" so to speak (Laffs at how silly that sounds :-)

Being a "Zodiac Killer" of the past, is a possibly thing. I have some thoughts on it, but I dare not touch on that yet, because I believe there are some basic things that are misunderstood about this person. But that's just my opinion and based off of my own biases, assumptions and conclusions. They may not be real.

He most definitely could have written it @SirRichard. It's why I no longer put stock in "descriptions" of letters, or "reproductions" of his written communications.

Whenever I see an article that has "recreated" and "printed" the text of a letter -- I lower and shake my head, because whomever has done that, is not aware that they've removed the "fingerprints" I'm convinced he leaves behind. I call them -- Artifacts.

They're not left there by accident. They're on purpose I believe.

We can also agree on Donna Lass and Kathleen Johns. Although, I have a suspicion about Johns. A conclusion that I came to about a year ago. About why she was, I believe, a Zodiac target and victim.

It's because she was pregnant. No one would know why this is relevant though, because no one knows what a "Zodiac" is nor why he was doing what he was doing. I have my suspicions.

Lass is a bit of mystery still to me. Stine is explained by the location and through Cameron's work. That one's pretty EZ.

I totally agree about the flawed argument of precedence. This is similar to the case I make about creating "Boxes" of your own confinement for argument sake and not for logic. It's my statement about the "Superman Paradox" coupled with prattling on about a "Canonical 5". This is simply a small box, for small minds. My opinion.

It allows someone who thinks outside the box, to leave the scene, while those in the box scratch their heads in a prison of their own making. This is why I commend your approach and your work.

I also agree that not all serial killers follow a strict regime and pattern. This is different from understanding the pattern of behavior and development that they all seem to have in common.

It's a nuanced difference, but I agree. It's the scientific equivalent of "expression". 2 genes can have the same makeup, but have different expressions. I agree.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 07:39:10 am

"BACK"

I had to create a separate post, just for this. I'm not sure I will expand too much here, because I have some work that I've done on something that is relevant to this specific word and its usage -- back.

This poses the most challenging part for me, in the conundrum you put forward. Because I believe he has an affinity for this word.

What do I mean?

I'm of the belief, that I've discovered an ingenious cipher. One that he left at a crime scene, never to be discovered and solved, because it's not labeled "I'M A CRYPTOGRAM, SOLVE ME". Nor does it say "SEND ME TO THE NEWSPAPERS FOR A SOLVE"

The cipher makes use of the word back. It also has the unique "k" that he's been known to sometimes use. Its formation suggestive and odd, almost like it contains the picture of "an arrow".

So I'm of the opinion that linguistically, there is a possible fingerprint there, in the fondness and usage of that word.

That's one of the areas, and reasons, why it would give me pause to dismiss it.

Hopefully that makes some sense ;-)

Richard

3/10/2025 08:55:17 am

Do you want me to guess the crime scene?

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 10:43:13 am

No. Why? Do you know it? :-)

I have it up on my channel. But it lacks context I now realize. So I'll have to expand on it as an explainer vid.

That's my current burden.

I'm not an expert in many of the areas that are required to be taken seriously for any of this. So I have to try to be smart, and patient, and learn as I go.

Hence why I'm here at your site. I'm still learning.

Richard

3/10/2025 11:30:59 am

No I don't know it Ed, I just thought I would mull over it and have a guess. When you put your explainer video up place a link in the latest article. Sorry I'm not writing a lot today, I've just done another article on about 3 hours sleep, so I've got fuzzy eye syndrome.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 03:05:08 pm

LOL @SirRichard,

I always thought you were a machine. Nice to see you may be human. Fuzzy eye syndrome I know very well. I tell the tale, that at my apex, I was studying letters and finding SOME things, up until the wee hours in the morning.

I have no idea when my explainer videos will be ready. My timeline is arbitrary, but is basically awaiting my ability to upskill my graphics package capability.

I give myself arbitrarily 12 months.

I did not want to flood your space with shameless self promotion. It's assumed most can tell my bias, my thoughts and my suspect by my name.

But flatly I'll tell you, because I almost feel like I've experienced what the Zodiac himself may have experienced. No one would ever be able to catch him, no one would ever be able to believe his life tale, because it's so unbelievable. But it's all logical.

The murder case made famous by Netflix. The tv show, that some say gave rise to the dramatic industry now known as true crime podcasting.

Some would say, ground zero for that groundswell was "Making a murderer". The confounding murder case, that became a worldwide phenomenon.

That case, like several others is very unique, in that much of the "so called evidence" is in plain sight for the average person to see.

This case in particular, has several sites, where the public can peruse what was taken into evidence.

There are 2 pieces of evidence that I have studied in that case.

1. is the Sikikey letter. A heretofore unknown letter that was sent surreptitiously into the case as a backdoor. It was a letter addressed to the Sheriff, and entered into evidence that way, where a judge decided it was not to be entered into evidence presentable to the Jury (I may be wrong here). This letter was also AFAIK, only made aware of its existence because it was FOIA'd by a detective that suspected it of being more relevant than at first glance.

He would not know, that I have come to the conclusion, that the letter is a brilliant piece of engineering. It has the hallmarks of something that I was not aware of at the time -- was called a NOMENKLATOR Cipher. More on that later.

But that is not the letter to which I'm referring and which you inquired.

This is how I know that a certain Zodiac suspect was there, and is responsible for the murder.

He left another letter. Another cipher. As if one wasn't enough, this one he left inside of the trailer of Steven Avery.

It is wide open in plain sight, for anyone all across the world, to search and to find.

No one would ever know, that a notepad, with the words "Back to Patio Door" would be itself, yet another completely different type of cipher.

That's what I'm referring to. Yes I know. It sounds ridiculous. It is. It's also true.

Such is the challenge I have in front of me to show it to be true. Luckily for me, no one is ever the wiser. No one is close to uncovering what I have uncovered.

Except for Shakedog. I worry about that guy. He knows a lot ;-)

Richard

3/11/2025 01:12:30 am

I watched the Steven Avery documentary years ago Ed, which sadly, along with a few crime documentaries since, has meant I don't bother watching true crime on Netflix anymore because it tends to choose one side of each story and play loose with the facts, along with dishonest editing. My guess is we probably have polar opposite opinions on the Teresa Halbach murder, but I will still be interested in your presentation about the "Back to Patio Door" reference when finished (albeit maybe 12 months). By the way, of course you can link it here when completed. Admittedly I haven't delved.into the case since 2018, unlike Jerome, because I simply have enough on my hands covering Zodiac. The only other two cases I have previously spent some time on is Jack the Ripper and Jon Benet Ramsey.

EdEdwwardsCiphers link

3/11/2025 07:22:17 am

Your feeling and opinion on the matter is not only valid @SirRichard. It is a popular one. It is understandable, it is resonant, it is guttural.

When watching the documentary, I had no interest in it barring it being popular. I was seeing online, the theory of a lone detective that intrigued me.

As I mentioned prior, something very much clicked for me with that narrative.

Instead of dismissing it though, I chose to try to "Fact Check" it. I read the books, both Cameron's and Edwards' biography.

Then I went to work.

Sikikey was the first letter of Study. JonBenét was next.

Because no one took it seriously. I believe no one ever undertook the task that I had, and is the reason I persist. No one ever has, and no one has found what I believe I have found.

My work, centers around letters, puzzles, and patterns.

You mention being on polar opposite sides of the Halbach murder, and being disenchanted with the editing. You and I are focused on two different things.

My focus is neither the murder of Halbach, nor the Netflix special.

My focus was the Sikikey letter, the strange circumstances around it, the characteristics of the letter. And shortly thereafter, I became interested in the even lesser known notepad scribblings that said -- Back to Patio door. I like word puzzles.

You have your hands full, with some of the exquisite "filling in the edges" work that you do here. It is sorely needed, and will hopefully pay off very much for you. That is my hope.

My focus is word puzzles, games, non-linear thinking, and from what little I know, ciphers.

Speaking of spending time on the JonBenét Ramsey case. Have you spent any time studying the ransom note? I have. It's another one, I've spent time up until the wee hours of the morning on.

It was quite an aha moment for me one 3am in the morning, when I believe I made a discovery.

Tell me, do you know the history behind the word Victory? You might be surprised to find it's connection to the letter "S", or what appears to be an "S" in the sequence of letters S.B.T.C

"S" is also the first letter in the word "Sikikey"

All of this seems unrelated, and could in fact be. There's only a slim chance that they could ever be related. Maybe a one in 3 million chance perhaps.

Wish me GOD S.peed for 12 months ;-)

Richard

3/13/2025 07:22:58 am

I have studied the Ransom note extensively - and without boring you to death with my comprehensive take - I will just say I don't believe it was written by anybody beyond that household. The notion that a so-called competent foreign faction who were watching their every move, would send somebody into the house, who would forget to take a pre-prepared ransom note, search the house to find pen and paper, sit there writing it for 22 minutes, then fail to kidnap anybody, is more in the realms of "keystone cops" than "foreign faction". As for S.B.T.C and Victory I've heard multiple suggestions, but haven't any thoughts on this beyond something pertinent to the family.

Rubislaw32 link

3/9/2025 07:50:11 am

Difficult to ignore previous notes which may have been attributed to the Zodiac - in light of this very interesting ''You're next (Zodiac Killers)'', plus rose, from March 14th 1978.

1) October 12th 1970: ''(Edward) Adams you are next.''.

2) August 26th 1976: ''Your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You're next.''.

What might they have had in common ?

1) Edward Adams was first adult Zodiac suspect William Joseph Grant's private shrink.

2) This personal ad, signed R.A., is often thought to be intended as from Richard Adler, hospital psychiatrist and junior private partner of Edward Adams. And, in 1973 became the private shrink to William Joseph Grant's wife Marian Grant.

So - in a roundabout way ''You're next'' becomes associated with Mr & Mrs Grant, and their His & Her shrinks, Adams & Adler.

Surely not mischief at play from the Zodiac ?

Richard

3/9/2025 08:09:13 am

Scrub number (2} Rubi that's been debunked. We do however have June 1st 1971, when a woman from South Dora Road, Ukiah complained she had received a series of threatening phone calls from an adult male, one of which stated "This is Zodiac - you're next". Her residence at South Dora Road is only 4 miles from where the threatening note of "You're Next - Z" was thrown to the eight-year-old girl walking on Lake Mendocino Drive.

And a letter postmarked Montclair, California on November 10th 1969 and addressed to an individual in Clarinda, Iowa, carried the message "Mr. (redacted) Your Next. The Zodiac". This format was nearly identical to the Edward C. Adams postcard, again using cuttings from a newspaper or magazine.

Richard

3/9/2025 08:17:36 am

The "rose" is just a representation, the type of flower is unknown.

Rubislaw32 link

3/9/2025 08:26:40 am

Thanks Richard - the red rose had jinxed me a bit. A red rose usually the exclusive domain of committed love for your partner.

JIbberjabber

3/9/2025 07:56:52 am

It is interesting, even at the time of the Black Dahlia crime there were anonymous phonecalls and letters being sent to what seem completely random people in Southern California saying "you are next" etc

I suppose they are the easiest of all pranks to play, but it does make you think. Taraval popping up in this article is interesting as Cragle has posted on the other thread a Zodiac letter supposedly mailed on Taraval St. Is that Balboa terrace the same Street Donna Lass was living on while in SF? I seem to think I have seen that word Balboa before.

Rubislaw32 link

3/9/2025 08:06:17 am

Rocky Balboa ?

JIbberjabber

3/9/2025 08:14:38 am

LOL Rubislaw I had the VHS boxset of the Rocky movies back when there was only 4 of them!! I think the word Balboa has popped up in the non-canonicals, it could be Donna Lass' address when living in San Francisco working at Letterman hospital. Or I have been punched in the head too many times by Ivan Drago

if he dies he dies

Richard

3/9/2025 08:14:58 am

Which letter did Cragle say was mailed in Taraval? Donna Lass lived at 4122 Balboa Street in the Richmond area, just north of Golden Gate Park.

JIbberjabber

3/9/2025 08:31:52 am

Has anyone seen that Ingleside sundial before? I dont think I had seen that before. Looks like there are various sundials throughout California (and the US) including some of the places Zodiac killed at or we can associate him with

https://sundials.org/index.php/all-things-sundial/old-and-historic-sundials/205-historic-ingleside-sundial

https://sundials.org/index.php/sundial-registry/selectdials/CA.html

but the one in Riverside dates from 1968 ggrrr

JIbberjabber

3/9/2025 08:35:56 am

............The dial equatorial band has solstice and equinox lines, as well as a line showing the declination of the sun marked with by months and zodiac signs......

interesting I may have to add this to my list of rabbit holes to go down at some point

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/9/2025 10:29:26 am

It's an interesting rabbit hole to go down @Jibber.

I don't know if many have gone down it, and come out successfully.

If you like, I might be able to help you navigate it, possibly.

;-)

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/9/2025 10:27:58 am

@Jibber,

Where was this original reference to a Sundial?

I'm not sure if what you are referencing is something discussed earlier in this thread or in Sir Richards original post that I may have missed. Or perhaps another discussion?

And are you saying that you believe there is a link between Sundials and this specific instance or all instances?

Just curious ;-)

JIbberjabber

3/9/2025 11:54:33 am

Nothing to do with this article specifically other than I looked at some of the places Richard mentioned above as being part of the district of Taraval, eg Balboa Terrace (which is different than Balboa Street which is where Donna Lass was living in SF, confusing to have a street & terrace with the same name?) Inglside etc I looked in Google maps and saw some interesting street names around the area then I saw what looked like a cross-hairs on the street view and zoomed in and saw the sundial. There seems to be a lot of them in the US, places like San Francisco, Riverside , Berkley, Oakland - there is one at Mare Islnd in Vallejo. They are probably nothing, they do remind me a bit of those mythical "meridian" markers on Mt Diablo, which are also likely nothing. I was just curious about them, I dont think I had seen them or any discussion of them before although I have exposed myself to so much damned information in this case I could have wrote a pevious thesis on the sundials and proably forgot!

Rubislaw32 link

3/9/2025 05:20:21 pm

One of the funniest (or bittersweet) lines of contemplative reflection that the Zodiac aka Scorpion, ever wrote ?

From Z180 (S5), circa 1997:

''Espresso New York Pee-coffee forces a cold enema review.''.

A cold enema review ? ''A cold any Mare view.''.

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 08:05:13 am

@Rubi,

Do you perhaps have a book published or a dedicated website? I sometimes feel like you're talking over my head or to an inside joke that I'm not in on ;-)

I know you have that website forum link in your name, but I feel very disjointed when I go there.

You have so many thoughts, I just wish that I could keep up. If you don't have a book, have you ever thought about collecting your thoughts in one place, where someone like myself could more easily follow along?

I know I would consider buying it.

Rubislaw32 link

3/10/2025 09:23:03 am

Probably will, at a later date, EdEdwardsCiphers.

It's all my own cipher work, but there is an aspect to this case most might not be aware of, and has held me back from publishing anything, to date.

But, in common with just about everyone else, I would like to see an arrest made.

Put it this way, I have half-joked that if I did write a book, a good name would be: ''Zodiac, and my part in Comey's downfall.''.

If you get the picture ?

Rubislaw32 link

3/10/2025 09:46:38 am

On reflection, probably unfair to expect anyone to.

This ''effing'' business has gone on longer than I expected, and difficult to really know how it's going to end. And, I have collected ''scalps'' unwittingly, which should never have happened. The only consolation, if that, is that case custodians CA DOJ ''get the picture''.

I believe anyway, the Zodiac case can only find a solution with the assistance of just a handful of prominent politicians.

Johnny

3/10/2025 10:12:08 am

That someone know or "almost" know who Zodiac is i also believe. But then some secret agency must have information to search ( for example to conclude the specific Impala or even better ofcourse DNA ), but have they?

I have only one suspect in this case and i have also only one suspect in the ripper case. I think it is up to others to prove this wrong! But this is not angled towards you now, Rubidubi. It's just my thinking overall, and i haven't got any concrete indication, proof or whatever of another lead in the Zodiac case.

I had one very clear suspect in the Palme murder aswell ( my home country ), and this suspect the swedish state named eventually, so this i got some acceptance for, but still many people dont believe its him.

Zodiac will be found through DNA if ever i think. Maybe they already have him, but will not name him. Its very bad chance now though, because they should have nailed him already if they searched DNA databases. Could Richard or some AI programme prove or almost prove that it is a certain suspect through his writings? It's possible! It's also possible in some other way!

Richard

3/10/2025 02:25:53 pm

No, I couldn't almost prove, and neither could AI that a certain person is Zodiac. I may be proved wrong but I believe that Zodiac Killer is about 35-45, around 5'9" to 5'11", drives a white 1959/1961 Chevrolet Impala, and lives within a 1 mile radius of the Springs & Tuolumne payphone. But without records available to the police I can't go any further. I know your Zodiac suspect, and I'll guess your Ripper suspect as Aaron Kosminsky.

I think the case can be solved without DNA but I know I'm in the minority. .

EdEdwardsCiphers link

3/10/2025 03:42:59 pm

DNA is admissible as evidence because of its statistical probabilistic characteristics.

Looks like it's roughly about -- 3 million to one odds per this site.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234541/

So if there's a possibility, of something else, providing similar probabilistic characteristics -- 3 million to one -- as the chances of one particular person, or of a reoccurrence of a specific complex pattern to exist in more than one place in time, then we might have something.

Under those conditions @SirRichard, we may have a chance of finding him without DNA.

All we need, is some sort of framework or structure, that deals with probabilities, patterns, math and deductive reasoning and logic.

After we've exhausted all other possibilities, then we may have him ;-)

Rubislaw32 link

3/10/2025 03:46:21 pm

''Maybe they already have him...''.

''On the money'', Johnny.

ZODCOM

3/10/2025 11:42:40 pm

I estimated him to be 30 +-2 years old at the end of 1969, but just based on his appearance. I also assume that he was older in his documents but looked about 10 years younger. So in reality he was probably around 40 years old at the end of 1969 when he escaped the manhunt “only by sheer luck”. If I'm right with all these calculations, then Zodiac should be around 95 years old today (I think:)

In any case, from a purely statistical point of view, he should have been dead a little longer by now.

I have no idea why Ed and Rubi almost go crazy every fourth day and talk as if the case is about to be solved every minute...enthusiasts :)))

Rubislaw32 link

3/11/2025 08:52:09 am

I have to admit that I find it amusing that whenever there is a mention of a possible breakthrough in the Zodiac case - how many begin to sense the game is up for them - their cages rattled, as it were.

Perhaps the best these wallowers in gloom were hoping for, was that their suspect or philosophy would be frozen in a state of unknowing forever more - and that they could then milk the gravy train of folklore whenever an opportunity arose ?

ZODCOM

3/11/2025 10:57:20 am

"...how many begin to sense the game is up for them - their cages rattled, as it were."

Rubi i agree with your points, since nobody can know all the things which run somewhere in some backgrounds. Imagine they come up with some DNA match, it's then goodbyeee for 57+ books, and that in super pronto and in technicolor :)))

Pal, check this vid out, it should't be too hard to contact Dan and/or fwd infos about TZC, and if only to make him interested. It's a bit of hope you maybe search for.

https://rumble.com/v6oxqci-lefty-snowflakes-melt-down-as-dan-bongino-appointed-to-deputy-director-of-f.html?e9s=src_v1_upp
Bongino is broom master, 7th DAN of advanced cleaning :)

ZODCOM

3/10/2025 10:00:06 pm

https://rumble.com/v6oxqci-lefty-snowflakes-melt-down-as-dan-bongino-appointed-to-deputy-director-of-f.html?e9s=src_v1_upp

Bongino is boom master, 7th DAN of advanced cleaning :)

ZODCOM

3/10/2025 10:08:09 pm

*broom

freudian braincramp :)

Rubislaw32 link

3/11/2025 02:38:43 pm

''....it's then goodbye to 57 plus books..''.

That sounds fine to me, ZODCOM, if the majority of us get what we hope for - a judicially ratified solution - preferably with the Zodiac still alive, so that he can explain himself to the victims' families. and on-camera.

I reckon Graysmith's first book Zodiac will probably always survive, since he turned out to be a gifted diarist, capturing some key moments of the case, as if he was a first-hand witness - which probably did happen, though not all the times he claims for.

ZODCOM

3/11/2025 06:46:33 pm

The story and possible background of the person who called himself The Zodiac...that's one of the scariest stories I've ever heard.

I've been following the breadcrumbs you left me the other day. Almost dead messageboard where apparently only you post (or talk to ghosts:) then I read the story about the mikado record...

You mentioned a psychiatrist who treated Grant's wife? Did Lafferty and you briefly check out this Dr.?
Appearance, age, height - that sort of thing? Did you ever talk to him?

Can you show me the photo of your POI, is there a weblink? Of course, if anything is open or moving and I'm too curious just leave it out or skip it. I would still like to see a photo of the “bastard son” :)

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

ZODCOM

3/11/2025 06:53:16 pm

What would you think was his motivation to show up at the funeral of your mother? To hurt you by his presents alone. To send a subtle threat towards you?

Rubislaw32 link

3/11/2025 07:47:50 pm

The problem with Richard Adler ?

Only, that he had been the subject of an internal investigation by his own profession's body, for have had sexual relations with patients.

Marian Grant was a popular local person (unlike her husband), now being treated by this psychiatrist for a nervous breakdown. She was also considered a beautiful woman. Tongues wagged with concern for her.

I think it best, generally, to leave my Zodiac dealings, to my resident site. One can always read my posts. And ''no'' - it's the last thing I would consider doing - plastering up photos of suspects, whom US DOJ, Scottish Crown and FBI are well-aware.

It's not my intention to ''lecture'', but first duty of law enforcement is to protect the law-abiding innocent. And, that probably includes every family member of a suspect in the Zodiac case, in a state of unawareness.

ZODCOM

3/11/2025 10:39:55 pm

I feel like Columbo at the moment. Stumbling around, asking stupid questions, knowing nothing about any POI, talking to some private investigator about this and that, and at the end of the day solving the episode by finding the killer :))))

Sorry Rubi, I didn't mean to put any compromising stuff under the spotlight.

ZODCOM

3/11/2025 10:55:05 pm

"Tongues wagged with concern for her."

That phrase of yours seems more like one from Stevenson's pirate days, you are not that old Rubi's Law...but then again...likes to talk with ghosts :)

ZODCOM

3/12/2025 01:37:56 am

Rubi, want to get in touch with a cool ex-FBI agent? Contact him :)
Have your papers ready, explain to him what you think the problem is...who knows what that could lead to.
https://rumble.com/c/KyleSeraphin/livestreams

His employer tried to rip him off in the Covid scam, and Kyle didn't stand for it. So, clearly he's not very enthusiastic about the organization he worked for a long time, but he certainly has a lot of old friends there who might have information, I would assume.

Rubislaw32 link

3/12/2025 03:20:51 am

I wouldn't touch the FBI to offer tips ''with a barge pole'' now. Although ''gratifying'' to see that ex-FBI Director Chris ''Hoodwinker'' Wray has now been effectively booted out as boss (hip, hip, hoo-wray).

To keep matters more ''Zodiac aligned'':

In April 2021, the FBI published their Eldridge Cleaver files, where their links to Cleaver became more widespread knowledge, for any taking an interest. Cleaver was on the run, from 1968, when jumping bail on (trumped up ?) charges of complicity to attempt murder of policemen. He was a tiny intellectual, successfully published writer, and with a soft handshake, known for quietly going about his business as Minister of Information for the Black Panther Party.

Which judge had granted Cleaver bail in the first place, that then allowed Cleaver to ''take flight'' ? Judge Raymond Sherwin - boss and known lover to Marian Grant, W J Grant's wife.

So, it now becomes apparent that when Sherwin was hospitalized, having been later seriously assaulted in a car park, an unknown FBI operative is likely to have been the No 1 suspect. This event is responsible for the Vallejo PD having their cover blown, when holding Zodiac suspect William Grant under surveillance.

In addition, the FBI has owned-up to the fact that they then had BBP student leader Bunchy Carter under surveillance, who was Cleaver's protege and anticipated next leader of the Black Panther Party. Carter was assassinated at UCLA, January 17th 1969 by Claude Hubert, believed in-pocket hit man for J Edgar Hoover. Whereabouts ever since unknown, but thought to have fled to Guyana.

Over the course of the next few years, Cleaver fled first to Cuba, at the approval of Fidel Castro. Then Algeria, and finally ended up in Paris France, where he lived on a stipend awarded to him by the North Vietnamese Govt. A huge embarrassment to the US Govt..

The Zodiac's threat on Cleaver in the May 2nd Channel 9 letter, is to give Cleaver stick for having ''tamely'' given up his civil rights beliefs, striking a deal with the US Govt. to return home, and join the establishment.

Rubislaw32 link

3/12/2025 04:00:01 am

As a footnote, this Cleaver ''flight from the law'' also links up with Melvin Belli. When the Zodiac wrote his Belli letter, effectively asking for help, Belli was away, apparently visiting Italy on business. Although unconfirmed, there are indications that he may also have visited Cleaver, when he was hiding at the invitation of the Algerian Govt.. This, after Fidel Castro realized that Cleaver was too much of a ''hot potato''.

ZODCOM

3/12/2025 05:27:55 pm

Somehow the little one seems to have had a busy sex life, and then always a different one and with different participants :) No wonder her old man blew the fuses one day and started sewing black pieces of fabric together.

Lawyers who don't defend because the accused is innocent but to get the guilty acquitted. Judges who are blown away. Offenders have more rights than victims. Deals with perpetrators who murder, rape and torture the victim a second time, then legally. These are just some of the subtleties of our justice system, that's the human nature of things if you just let it run for decades.

Rubislaw32 link

3/13/2025 01:57:12 am

Certainly some truth in what you say, ZODCOM.

My experience is that legal people run away from anything to do with an interpretation of ''The spirit of the law''.

They need to know that they are in control of it.

And, most of them are closet-sociopaths - or up-front ones that can't even sense their affliction.

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