A FABRICATED BROADCAST AT PRESIDIO HEIGHTS?

1/6/2025

There has yet to be a satisfactory explanation for why Officer Donald Fouke chose to head away from the crime scene on October 11th 1969 after the initial radio broadcast, rather than turn south on Cherry Street to come to the aid of Paul Stine, other than he was directed there by Zodiac. I am not going to rehash this analysis again, so if you are interested read the article "Two Cops Pulled a Goof" or watch the following Youtube video.

The argument being put forward here, is that if Officers Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms stopped and spoke to the Zodiac Killer, then the initial radio broadcast informing responding officers to be on the lookout for a black male adult was a fabrication. In other words, there was no such instruction. The story of the mix up between the Robbins kids and the dispatcher would have been created to explain away the fact that Officers Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms didn't apprehend the white male subject on Jackson Street, who was later realised to be the Zodiac Killer.

In 1969, the percentage of African American males in San Francisco was 13.4%, but in the wealthy district of Presidio Heights their population density was much lower. The Zodiac Killer was all about providing "proof" during his canonical attacks. He provided numerous details of his Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs attacks on July 31st 1969 and August 4th 1969, including the reference to police talking to a black male (probably by the payphone on July 5th 1969). He wrote on the car door of Bryan Hartnell's vehicle at Lake Berryessa, and mailed a piece of Paul Stine's shirt two days after the murder, to indelibly link himself to these crimes. He also made two phone calls after his second and third attacks. The Zodiac Killer's primary goal at this juncture was tying himself to the crimes.

This can be seen on November 9th 1969, when the Zodiac Killer highlighted one particular section of his letter, stating "p.s. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min + I said yes there was this man who was runnig by waveing a gun & the cops peeled rubber + went around the corner as I directed them + I disappeared into the park a block + a half away never to be seen again". The Zodiac Killer did this by placing arrows across this section of text with the accompanying phrase "Must print in paper". His knowledge of the police at this particular location was his proof of being there. However, there is one crucial thing missing from the red section of text above. It should have read "I said yes there was this black man who was runnig by waveing a gun".

Officer Donald Fouke

Officer Donald Fouke, from all the police accounts we have read, was looking for a black male adult as he approached the intersection of Jackson and Maple, so if he had stopped the Zodiac Killer at this location, the obvious question to have asked a white male adult walking on the sidewalk, in a low density African American area, would not have been "have you seen anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min". It would have been "have you seen a black man acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min". He was looking for a black male adult in the area, so it flies in the face of any common sense that you would not include this distinguishing characteristic in your question, when asking a white male for assistance.

But how do we know that Officer Donald Fouke didn't include the "black male" description when talking to Zodiac? Because the Zodiac Killer would have written "have you seen a black man acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min" in his November 9th 1969 letter as further proof he spoke to officers, had Donald Fouke said such a thing. Why on earth would the Zodiac Killer omit such a crucial detail like this from a section of text he made a point of highlighting? Probably because Officer Donald Fouke wasn't looking for a black male on October 11th 1969, having never been given this instruction by the dispatcher. It was likely a fabrication issued to him by his superiors, to be documented in a memorandum on November 12th 1969.

Jibberjabber

1/6/2025 11:31:36 am

Richard, I seem to recall Druzer posted a newspaper article back maybe last Oct/Nov that actually said Zodiac escaped because of a mixup in the message from despatch. If it wasn't posted here it must have been the Tapatalk forum. It was quite a big find IMO as it the only time I have seen corroboration of what Fouke said. I can't remember if the article mentioned they got the wrong skin colour,but it does make it clear despatch was at fault. I might have saved it actually I will see if I can find it. According to the last Graysmith book it was Fouke who contacted Toschi & Armstrong to say he thinks they (he & Zelms) stopped Zodiac and they told him to write the scratch. But I seem to remember Toschi has Fouke contacting him within days of the encounter yet the scratch was not submitted for several weeks, so Fouke sat on the request for some reason (if Toschi's recollections to David Fincher were correct when they were at Presidio Heights scouting locations for the movie in 2004/2005 I believe this was). Now I think about it Zodiac's response to Fouke's question is a bit odd and I think shows Zodiac knew more than he should have for just being an innocent guy out for a walk. I would hardly call running and waving a gun around as being "strange or suspicious" if someone was running around with a gun I think most people would run away and try and call the police, yet supposedly Zodiac is walking nonchalantly on Jackson St with his head down. A genuine concerned citizen would have ran towards a police car IMO and not tried to avoid looking at it. This shows to me that at that time Zodiac did not know he had been observed by the Robbins' with a knife but he maybe thought someone had heard the gunshot from the cab - which is why he volunteered the information about a gun. I will see if I can find the newspaper article Druzer uploaded about the mixup but he did post it. First and only time I ever saw anything independent which corroborated Fouke's account.

Rich

1/6/2025 12:21:58 pm

Any newspaper article about a mix up between the Robbins kids and dispatcher I suspect was given to the newspapers by law enforcement, who would understandably say that if they were concocting a story. I've slightly amended the article to represent the possibility of a mix up, but I doubt this happened. I have zero doubt that Fouke spoke to the Zodiac Killer, and until somebody can explain why the timeline of events makes no sense, and why Fouke didn't head directly to the crime scene, I am sticking with the only logical answer, that Fouke spoke to Zodiac and was directed towards Arguello, which he admitted in the 1989 documentary.

Now if there was a presumed mix up and Fouke stopped Zodiac, why didn't he ask Zodiac if he had seen a black man in the area. This would have been the obvious question to ask Zodiac, which Zodiac would have obviously capitalized upon in his Bus Bomb letter. If police were looking for a black man and Zodiac knew this, this would have been the perfect proof to put in his letter. But he didn't.

Whether Zodiac knew he was observed by the kids could boil down to whether you believe the threat on schoolchildren on October 13th was because he noticed the Robbins kids, or this threat was coincidental. From the time of the shot to when Donald Fouke approached Zodiac was at least 4 minutes. Zodiac must have known there was a strong chance the crime scene had been discovered, because a cop car (possibly with lights and sirens) was heading his way. Therefore, it's possible he said he saw "a man running and waving a gun" because it validated what had occurred at the crime scene, and believing reponding police may have been told of a shot being heard, Zodiac feeding cops with the story of a man with a gun, he thought would sound credible..

JIbberjabber

1/6/2025 01:56:40 pm

That is my first thought as well, the article is just a cover-up

although the timing is strange, if the police put out this story they have waited more than a year and reported in the Vallejo newspaper.

Something else strange, the article goes on to say the San Francisco police do not think Zodiac killed Cheri-Jo Bates yet this is only 6 days after I can find the first articles in the SF Chronicle where Avery makes the "Riverside connection". we even have Zodiac writing to LA 4 months later taking credit for the Bates murder, when this article has him as NOT being the killer.

How had police come to conclusion on Zodiac involvement with a So-Cal case less than a week of Paul Avery bringing it to their attention?
I thought the police in the bay area suddenly became very interested in a Riverside connection at this point, not had already discounted it in less than a week

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/zodiackillerfr/viewtopic.php?p=275090#p275090

Rich

1/6/2025 02:32:54 pm

None of us today know for certain if Zodiac was involved in Riverside, so the police can't possibly have determined this after a few days. Maybe they bought the Bob Barnett story, or maybe they weren't too keen on more work. They could have believed it was a possibility, but decided they needed to focus on the canonical 4 which they knew were Zodiac. I'm sure differing opinions came out of San Francisco but the men in charge call the shots, with one eye on the budget.

JIbberjabber

1/6/2025 02:05:11 pm

That article mentions Zodiac mailed a pasted up card to a newspaper in Sacramento. DId he ever do that to our knowledge? Does not ring a bell to me unless somehow it relates to the DMV or Monticello cards?

I dont think I remember a Sacramento newspaper ever being discussed before. Dave Peterson does have some respect as a news reporter on Z from what I have read on here?

Rich

1/6/2025 02:21:52 pm

So that article was November 1970, so the police took 13 months to reveal this? The San Francisco Police never mentioned this for a year, and never mentioned the sighting of Zodiac on Jackson Street.by any officers. It's this lack of transparency that raises red flags for me, especially when I read a Nov 12th memorandum that deviates into the third person retelling of the story, and the complete hiding away of Eric Zelms. I don't buy the shit they're selling.

The Sacramento paste ups were the two horoscope mailings on December 10th & 11th 1969, coinciding with the disappearance and murder of Leona Roberts.

Rubislaw32 link

1/6/2025 03:03:15 pm

Yes, Jibberjabber, Dave Peterson had good standing and respect for his Zodiac investigative efforts. Unfortunately he later became a bit side-tracked, believing Joseph Bates might be the Zodiac (can you believe it ?). This, following an anonymous letter he received.

Now - I wonder if that letter was from the Zodiac ? All these ''little things'' we might eventually learn, if the Zodiac is brought to justice. Another such ? The ''Phil Sins'' slow boat to China letter to Paul Avery, that wasn't from Phil Sins. This letter precipitated the ''apparent'' exclusive on the Bates/Riverside letters.

Rubislaw32 link

1/6/2025 06:05:32 pm

Without meaning to slip off-topic too much, until proved otherwise I'll always believe that the ''Phil Sins letter'' to Paul Avery, was actually a collaboration between Captain Cross of Riverside and Det Sgt John Lynch of VPD. Lynch providing the ''artistic content'' of the letter - which seems very Zodiac-esque, but with a giveaway that the references to Captain Cross being the man to see for Avery - were just too plentiful.

Riverside knew that the game was up in suppressing the Bates-correspondences any longer - and CA DOJ & FBI were the ones that had been kept out of the loop about them.

Oh dear. I don't think the FBI ever forgave Riverside & local PD's. CA DOJ probably more ''philosophical''.

Robert

1/6/2025 02:28:22 pm

The timeline is indeed interesting, to say the least. I find you logic very strong, Richard. I wonder if this was a mis-direct by the killer (akin too what might have happened with the payphone after BRS). Maybe the killer saw Fouke stop someone else and wanted that person pegged as the killer?

Here is a link to a SF Chronicle article from 10/12 that states that the suspect was a white mail.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/comments/wc3bl2/an_oct_12_1969_sf_chronicle_article_about_the/

Rich

1/6/2025 02:48:40 pm

The only problem with Zodiac watching someone else get stopped is the descriptions given by the teenagers, Fouke and the man running into the park. They all pretty much matched. To believe the individual stopped by Fouke was somebody completely different, would require this separate person to also look like the description given by the Robbins kids at the crime scene. In other words, just a random person that so happened to match the description of the man at the taxicab.

The three teenagers described the suspect to the police dispatcher as a "WMA, in his early forties, 5'8'', heavy build, reddish-blond "crew-cut" hair, wearing eyeglasses, dark brown trousers, dark (navy blue or black) "Parka" jacket, dark shoes". Donald Fouke described the suspect as a "WMA, 35-45 yrs, about 5'10", 180-200 lbs, medium heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear, crew cut, wearing glasses. Dressed in dark blue waist length zipper type jacket (navy or royal blue). Brown wool pants".

So you can see that the taxicab suspect matches the suspect seen by Fouke. Therefore, it's likely Zodiac both times. Unless another random person just happened to turn up that matched the man described by the Robbins kids.

Rich

1/7/2025 03:21:10 am

Additionally, the Bus Bomb author stated he was in the park, having entered 1 1/2 blocks from the point he met Officer Fouke. The memorandum on November 12th confirmed that Officer Fouke had seen the Zodiac at the same point on Jackson, 1 1/2 blocks shy of Julius Kahn Playground. So the Zodiac on November 9th 1969 knew the presence of officers shy of Jackson & Maple, despite the newspapers never mentioning anything about Fouke and Zelms at this location. This confirms the fact that this was Zodiac who Fouke saw. Add this to the description of the man by Fouke matching the man seen running into Julius Kahn Playground and the man seen by the Robbins kids, plus the timing of Fouke's journey of 1 minute to this location (9:59pm) matching perfectly with Zodiac's journey (9:56pm to 9:59pm) from the taxicab, proves the sighting of Zodiac by Fouke. Anyone who says this wasn't Zodiac is totally wrong.

Robert

1/7/2025 11:53:26 am

I think that you are right on this one, Richard, with a high probability. I will need to re-read what you have on this one in other posts; the only thing that gives me pause is the original age provided for the perp by the Robbins kids, and the long delay in the Fouke memo (which itself is odd as you and others have noted). Should SFPD have ignored the "goof letter" from the Zodiac or said it was inaccurate, perhaps to bait him? Endless questions.

Rich

1/7/2025 12:52:33 pm

On October 12th morning the police report was signed by Pelissetti. The age given by the kids was early 40s. This was the earliest testimony of the Robbins kids. There is no evidence that the 25 to 30 age range on the first wanted poster had anything to do with them.

JIbberjabber

1/7/2025 10:19:12 am

Great comments from everyone. The more you churn this over the more you have to eventually accept the police saw Zodiac and Zodiac saw the police. I believe the full monty ie that Zodiac & Fouke conversed.

If it was anyone else the police had stopped, ie a resident of Presidio Heights I would think they would have come forward to clear themselves - and give the police a better description / contribute to a sketch of who would have been likely the killer - the man waveing the gun.

Zodiac & Fouke interacted - no doubt in my mind.
We know exactly what the Zodiac looked like on Oct 11th 1969 and we know his demeanor / ability under stress 3 minutes after shooting someone in the head.

Just as a slight off-topic here but reading the above made me consider it. We often hear or read amateur researchers asking if Stine's cab is still stored in evidence somewhere, could they DNA test the seats etc using modern technology.

I am wondering if Stine's clothes still exist. Seems the Robbins' observed Zodiac going through Stine's pockets. I think if anything was worth DNA testing they should turn Stine's pockets inside out and MVAC for touch DNA. It would likely be a lot simpler, cheaper, less surface area to vac so less material to sift and produce less possible profiles than somehow DNA testing the rest of the cab.

God knows how many people left DNA on that cab seat, but there shouldn't have been too many people who put their hands in Paul Stine's pockets.

JIbberjabber

1/7/2025 10:24:00 am

For Rubislaw - I think Phil Sins was a real person?
I had thought he was maybe the Bates killer/Zodiac for a long time, but I asked the question a couple of years ago when I was still posting on tapatalk and I am sureTom Voigt confirmed to me this was a genuine person.

I "think" that is the situation with the letter but if anyone can confirm either way I would be interested to know now.

Rich

1/7/2025 10:58:01 am

Mike Morford interviewed him in 2012. He stated "that as far as he can remember, he initially asked Avery to contact Riverside Police, and that he only got involved directly with Riverside Police Department after he made contact with Avery. He stated that he linked the two cases just by the overall similarity in the taunting letters. It also got his attention that Bates was killed on Halloween Eve and Zodiac sent a Halloween card. He told Avery to look into it, and get a writing expert as there were writing samples in Riverside. He says he has monitored the case since making the connection. He himself never had any suspects nor did he have any theories in particular".

Rubilaw32 link

1/7/2025 11:17:04 am

Yes - Phil Sins is/was a real person, and resident of Los Angeles. He was an armchair sleuth who built-up a trusted relationship with Paul Avery over the Zodiac case.

About six years ago, Riverside PD accused Sins of being the author of the ''Slow boat to China'' letter - which suggested to Avery that Captain Cross of Riverside PD had held some letters that might be of interrest to Avery, regarding the Zodiac case.

Phil Sins denied that he was the author, and further stated that he had never written to Avery - and communications between him and Avery had always been via the telephone.

When Avery received the letter, he couldn't get down to L.A. quick enough - almost immediately heading for San Francisco Airport. Avery, assuming the letter was from Sins, simply called Sins to tell him he would pick Sins up in a taxi - and that together they would meet with Captain Cross. But, when they arrived at Riverside PD, Sins was turned away, and only Avery admitted.

Avery walked out of Riverside PD with copies of the Bates correspondences, and on his return to San Francisco - then headed for Sacramento as soon as he was able, in order to show Sherwood Morrill, Documents Examiner for CA DOJ, the copies.

Rubislaw32 link

1/7/2025 11:59:11 am

I would suggest that Captain Cross was ''eager'' to off-load Bates correspondence copies to Paul Avery. 13 months after Riverside and Napa had first talked about the existence of letters, there had not been a resolution to the Zodiac case, and Riverside realizing the letters might be of help - also realized that some agencies, particularly the FBI, had been left out on knowledge about them.

An ''exclusive'' from Avery seemed a solution. That way, no agencies would be able to react negatively in public, since ''solidarity'' was the rule of thumb. One just didn't show disharmony in front of the public, whom you were supposed to serve.

But, I bet the FBI were ''livid''.

JIbberjabber

1/7/2025 12:58:44 pm

Very interesting Rubislaw, what you are saying is ringing a bell with me but some of these details - which I think could be pivotal to the case(s) they get pushed out of ones mind when considering all the other things.

It is extremely interesting and important to understand how Avery was brought into the Bates case and by whom as it forever changed the way the 2 cases were looked at.

Maybe there is more to it than meets the eye. I am glad someone linked the cases because there is similarity, I am surprised more people from Riverside were not ringing SFPD asking if they had noticed the similiarities between the 2 cases - infact maybe they did but SFPD did not act on the calls, as you say maybe it was Avery at the Chronicle that could thrust the case into the open - which we have to admit does not tend to be the way police work. I think trying to build a case that Zodiac killed Cheri Jo Bates was a GOOD thing because it forced the police forces to talk to each other - maybe at least initially.

Obviously for a different thread but I do think Zodiac killed Cheri Jo Bates, the confession letter coupled with the overcomplicated way the car was sabotaged just tells me this is not a "typical" murder (Wrong choice of word I know)

I am still every day surprised that no one in So-Cal like Phil Sins or anyone else in that area also remembered there was another famous unsolved murder which involved a killer who sent communications to the police & press, which were even more Zodiac like than the ones in the Bates case, but that is yet another thread again!!

Rubislaw32 link

1/7/2025 01:25:50 pm

Indeed, Jibberjabber - retrospective observations are all very well. But actually living at that time, and involved in the case....so many things were going on, and such things as ''reportage'' of Zodiac-suspect letters from Greater L.A. - might have just appeared as ''gossip'' to some Bay area agencies.

I believe it was ''Druzer'' who, about 4 years ago, showed evidence that SFPD had found that there were no fingerprint matches between Paul Stine's murder and any suspected activity around Cheri Jo's Volkswagon. And this work carried out inside the 13 months between Lake Berryessa and the ''Slow boat to China'' letter alerting Paul Avery. So, some police action had taken place involving a known Zodiac attack (Washington St) and Riverside College.

One could look at the author of the letter, as follows:

1) Phil Sins
2) The Zodiac
3) Other

I believe the answer is ''Other'', and more than likely Captain Cross knew the answer. My guess is Det Sgt John Lynch, as a favour to Cross, since Lynch was well-versed in Zodiac's letters by then.

Jibberjabber

1/7/2025 01:44:09 pm

The fingerprints are the major problem for sure. But we have a killer communicating to the police and press and using IMO Zodiac like words/phrases. Zodiac also took credit which I think he is maybe just egocentric enough to do. I can't give up on a connection just yet fingerprints and all, there may be another explanation for the fingerprints. My attitude with this case is like my opinion in general life unless I really see something proven to my satisfaction with my own eyes and allowing me to review the info myself. I am open minded about things like fingerprints and DNA in this case, I know the forensics would suggest no but the similarity is there.

Rich

1/7/2025 01:46:24 pm

This is the whole interview with Phil Sins:

One thing I have to mention is that he is up there in age around 80 years old, and I know my Grandfather who is 83 is definitely not as sharp as he used to be,and thats not to make Mr Sins sound like he does not have all his faculties, etc. In addition, he is dealing with some health issues within his Family, so I was happy to talk with him for the 20-30 minutes that we got on the phone,as he has alot on his mind.

Again this is all based on his recollection from 40+ years ago.

*He states, as far as he can remember, that he did NOT write a letter to Paul Avery, that he actually called him on the phone.

*He states that as far as he can remember, he initially asked Avery to contact Riverside Police, and that he only got involved directly with RPD, AFTER he made contact with Avery.

*He states that Avery came down to Riverside,and that they went to the police station in Riverside, where the letters & desktop were discussed or shown, but that he himself did NOT get to see them.

*He states that Captain Cross treated him like a suspect, and that Riverside PD asked for a sample of Mr Sins’ hair, and he complied and gave it to them. He was not worried since he knew he didnt kill her, but they never got back to him regarding his hair sample after he gave it.

*He states that although he gave a hair sample, he never gave a writing sample

*He states that he talked to Avery several times by phone, and went up to SF a few times and met with him. On one of these trips up there with his Family in tow, he says he witnessed a car following a woman closely. The details seemed sketchy in his mind, but he stated that the driver wound up on foot chasing the woman, and that he himself chased after the attacker, but could not catch him. I asked him if he called police, and he said he was trying to find a phone closeby,but was unable to. He described the guy as stocky, muscular, and pretty tall maybe around 6ft…with no glasses.

* As has been reported, he DID SAY that he contacted Vallejo PD at some point as well.

*He states that he did not even know his name was out there on the net in relation to the Zodiac case,and that he has never been contacted before about his involvement. He says that he hopes he can help, and was glad to do so,but hopes I can spread the word for him so that he is not contacted by others.

*He states that he never receievd any weird letters or phone calls over the years.

I read over the phone the details of the letter that he supposedly wrote to Avery seen here: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ect_7.html
He states he really doesnt remember writing that, and that it does not sound familiar.(Again he is 80 years old, so maybe he cant rememebr clearly)

It’s pretty obvious that Mr Sins,IS REAL,and that he did contact Avery whether it was by letter or phone really doesnt matter. Some of the facts he seemed to be mixed up on but remembered a few things overall. He remembered that Cheri had a Boyfriend that had moved to SF area. He remembered that Toschi was accused of writing a fake Z letter. Also, I think much of what he remembers, he got out of newspapers,one such item was how Zodiac,as described in a newspaper,was laughing uncontrollaby as he stabbed Cecelia.

He stated that he linked the two cases just by the overall similarity in the taunting letters. It also got his attention that Bates was killed on Halloween Eve and Z sent a Halloween card. He told Avery to look into it, and get a writing expert as there were writing samples in Riverside. He says he has monitored the case since making the connection. He himself never had any suspects nor did he have any theories in particular.

There are no smoking gun clues here,but a few surprising things. At least we know that he is a real person, and that some of what was reported has some basis in reality. I thanked him and he told me that if he could think of anything else important, he would call me. It was very nice & helpful of him to take the time to talk with me despite having things going on in his own life right now. It’s always cool to hear from the real people that we have talked about all these years!

Rich

1/7/2025 01:49:34 pm

The link to the letter goes nowhere now.

Rubislaw32 link

1/7/2025 02:41:24 pm

Thanks for the extra information, Richard.

All things considered, I think it was mean of Riverside PD to make accusation to Phil Sins, and at an elderly age after all those years gone by.

At the end of the day, it was Riverside PD who elected to lodge the Bates correspondences with the US Postal Services Fraud Department - where they just languished doing nothing. And, related to a high-profile murder ? Surely, Riverside PD were either naive - or just didn't want the FBI involved at all. If Riverside had asked advice from CA DOJ, as what to do with the letters - the likelihood is that CA DOJ would have advised them to hand them over to the FBI.

And, that's the real point.

Rich link

1/7/2025 02:08:29 pm

Here is the text of the "slow boat to China letter". Not the actual letter. Click my name.

Richard

1/7/2025 02:24:03 pm

Phil Sins didn't recall sending a letter, but he did phone Paul Avery, so him wanting to remain anonymous in a letter seems like it wasn't him who sent to "slow boat to China" letter. So it was either Zodiac or a third party.

Rubislaw32 link

1/7/2025 11:59:28 pm

''....it was either Zodiac or a third party.''.

Absolutely.

Jibberjabber

1/7/2025 02:34:12 pm

Thanks for posting Richard. I remember I had seen all this before but not for a long time. The letter certainly has a strange tone, but I would have to rule Zodiac out as being the author because the chance he would write to Paul Avery at the exact same time Phil Sins is talking to Avery by phone, I would think that not credible (ie incredible). The letter obviously existed for someone to reproduce it, I would love to see the handwriting, envelope, stamp,date of postage etc I wonder why Zodiac didn't "credit" Paul Avery with uncovering his Riverside activity, Phil Sins never got a public acknowledgement, does Avery's reporting of the Riverside connection read like he (Avery) noticed the similarities in the cases, or do RPD and/or get an acknowledgement publicly? The police don't seem to have stumbled across it at all in actual fact. Phil Sins telephoned/wrote to Avery, who went down there collected evidence himself and returned with it to the bay area.

If Zodiac did not write the slow boat to China letter, which I find it highly unlikely he did (although I admit it reads a bit like the concerned citizen card) how did Zodiac think he had been linked to Riverside?

Rich

1/7/2025 03:10:46 pm

I too doubt Zodiac wrote it. The only extremely slim possibility is Zodiac after mailing the Halloween card, mailed this letter to Avery as an accompaniment, which coincided wit Phil Sins noticing a Riverside connection in the Halloween card. Meaning Phil Sins phone call and Zodiac's letter overlapped.

Jibberjabber

1/8/2025 08:46:03 am

That would explain Zodiac being the author of the slow boat to China letter for sure. But how likely is the overlap? That is the question. I thought it virtually impossible yesterday that Zodiac could be the author of the letter,but now I am not against it as much. If the letter was posted from Riverside then Zodiac still has a connection with the place even 4 years after the Bates murder. Let's assume Zodiac was the author, would the reason for the letter be basic ego or could it have a more practical purpose for him ie to confuse the investigation or remove the focus from the bay area. Which is actually what his next 2 confirmed correspondences did in March 71 - we have him confirming Riverside and then a few days later inferring a connection to Donna Lass. Was he engineering a way to take some heat off in the bay area?

Rubislaw32 link

1/8/2025 09:27:47 am

Interesting - your ''weighing-up'' of who the ''Slow boat from China'' was from: Zodiac or a probable police-inspired motivation ?

I find it interesting from Avery's perspective also:

The letter received by him, only about a fortnight after the personal euphoria surrounding the Zodiac's Halloween card. Avery, this ''intrepid'' reporter was suddenly the focus of attention - more even than Zodiac himself.

Avery's head was still spinning with recognition when he then received a perceived ''scoop'' opportunity. But - ''All that glitters is not always gold''. After Avery had put his exclusive out - the reality would have probably started to sink in - that a number of Bay area PD's had known about these letters. Particularly after CA DOJ called for a LE summit, to iron out ''communication problems''.

Avery certainly had an ego - as demonstrated by his apparent ''fearless'' involvement in the Zodiac case. I'm not sure that he was ever the same again.

Rich

1/9/2025 02:54:10 am

The interesting part of the letter is where the author says "Give Captain Cross a call on the phone, he knows "I do not quit". If Captain Cross is aware of somebody who doesn't quit, then he would probably know that identity of the author of the letter to Avery, so why does the author feel it necessary to remain anonymous to Avery.

Rubislaw32 link

1/9/2025 04:59:20 am

Indeed, Rich - and what it means ''minimum'' , is that Phil Sins was not the author of that letter. Furthermore, that since Riverside PD elected to accuse Sins of being the author - they don't look like they themselves have no knowledge who that author was.

Riverside PD ''wriggling'' out of something ?

Richard

1/9/2025 08:19:26 am

Yes, if Phil Sins made his identity known to Avery by phone, he isn't sending him a letter wishing to remain anonymous.

JIbberjabber

1/8/2025 10:19:49 am

I did not realise there are lyrics to a song with the title slow boat to china. They are mildly interesting

I think I can honestly say it is a phrase I have never used, but I am aware of it and think I have been all my life. Would have been interesting if Sins could remember if it was a specific phrase he may have used or not - as opposed to sending the whole letter. It dates from the late 40s so was probably very popular by the 60s/70s.

I do not ever using it myself it is not the first thing that comes to my mind if I want to describe or show frustration at something taking a frustating amount of time, but like I say I am a different generation

On a Slow Boat to China
Song by Emile Ford and The Checkmates

Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do, do
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do, do...
I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China all to myself alone
M-mm, t'get you and keep you in my arms evermore
Leave all your lovers weeping on the faraway shore
Out on the briny with a moon big and shiny
Melting your heart of stone

I'd love to get you a slow boat to China all to myself alone
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do, do...
I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China all to myself alone
M-mm, get you and keep you In my arms evermore
Leave all your lovers weeping on the faraway shore
Out on the briny with a moon big and shiny
Melting your heart of stone

O-oh, I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China all to myself alone
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do, do
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do-dit
Dit, dit, do-do, do...

Rubislaw32 link

1/9/2025 11:14:35 am

Perhaps the ''Slow boat to China'' actually ended-up taking the wind out of Avery's sails, Jibberjabber ?

''The Checkmates'' is a temptingly ''Zodiac'' link - it has to be admitted. And so was ''Slip of the tongue''.

The old chestnuts are always the best :

1st Man : ''My wife has gone to live in Indonesia.''.

2nd Man : ''Jakarta ? ''.

1st Man : ''No, I took her on a boat.''.

Rubislaw32 link

1/9/2025 11:44:20 am

What does ''A slow boat to China'' mean ? I looked it up :

Something that takes a very long time to achieve. Originating from the game of poker, describing someone who consistently loses - large amounts over a long period.

Rubislaw32 link

1/9/2025 12:23:32 pm

The Zodiac's Halloween card of Oct 1970 claimed or claimed he was about to take his 14th victim.

Fast-forward to his L.A. letter of March 1971, and ''Riverside activity reference'' where he claimed 17 victims.

So - another 3 victims in just under 5 months - does seem realistic, even as a false claim.

But, does the ''Slow boat to China'' letter ''fit in'', on a basis of continuity ? If, from the Zodiac, also.

VT_Squire

1/10/2025 09:02:25 am

"The story of the mix up between the Robbins kids and the dispatcher would have been created to explain away the fact that Officers Donald Fouke and Eric Zelms didn't apprehend the white male subject on Jackson Street, who was later realised to be the Zodiac Killer."

One thing that all conspiracy theorists have in common is that they already know the answer they want. And where they don't have data to support what they want, they invoke a coverup which enables them to gap across places that they cannot otherwise support with data.

Officer Fouke has consistently denied ever speaking to the man he drove by that night, and you're asking questions like "But how do we know that Officer Donald Fouke didn't include the "black male" description when talking to Zodiac?"

There's that coverup again.

What evidence do you seek, that would convince you that both Fouke and Pelissetti did not participate in a conspiracy to cover up the truth?

Richard

1/10/2025 11:26:33 am

Firstly a simple answer to a question I've asked for 10 years. Both officers got the first radio broadcast at the same time. Donald Fouke's journey time from where he said he was, to the intersection of Jackson & Cherry, where he turned into the upper reaches of Cherry and met Pelissetti,. is no longer than 90 seconds (likely slightly less). So according to the story, Donald Fouke headed directly to the crime scene after the initial radio broadcast and met Pelissetti here. Explain how that is possible?

VT_Squire

1/11/2025 11:52:29 am

Simple. They did not do a super rush to the destination. Measure it on google earth. In metric terms, they did ~38.5kph in a 40kph zone to get there. That's on a "perfect" scenario though, assuming zero erroneous turns and no delay in realizing what was being broadcast.

Pelissetti relays a different story regarding his own travel to the scene. He says he turned on his lights and siren.

If Fouke had his siren blaring, you couldn't expect him to hold a conversation with someone on the street in the first place.

Richard

1/12/2025 12:47:10 am

Donald Fouke turned west into Jackson after the initial broadcast and headed towards Jackson & Maple, where he saw the man. Then, according to the accepted story, continued to Cherry and saw Pelissetti. If he had no conversation with Zodiac, this journey could never take 4 minutes to enable him to meet Pelissetti. End of. Also, you can turn a siren off. The 1989 "Crimes of the Century" documentary likely revealed the real truth. If you choose to believe Pelissetti took 90 seconds (or even 2 minutes) to arrive at the crime scene, usher the kids to the alcove, check on Stine, retake the description, issue this to all units, inform Peda to secure the scene and then slowly walk up Cherry, checking all the alcoves and parked cars, to then meet Fouke, you are welcome to keep living in this fantasy.

VT_Squire

1/12/2025 09:10:25 am

"Donald Fouke turned west into Jackson after the initial broadcast and headed towards Jackson & Maple, where he saw the man. Then, according to the accepted story, continued to Cherry and saw Pelissetti."

That's all well and good if the "this is the Zodiac speaking" documentary provided a single continuous shot of Fouke making that claim. But it doesn't. We KNOW it has been edited. You just don't know the extent of that editing. Maybe you have another "straight from the horse's mouth" which I am not considering at this moment.

Often overlooked is the other comment that Fouke made in that documentary, that he was patrolling the east end of the Richmond district. Well, that is substantially close to a mutually exclusive claim since Washington and Presidio is pretty far outside of the Richmond District in the first place.

More to the point, the district itself is irregularly shaped, and the east end is as much as just under a mile south of Washington street.

In a "no wrong turns" scenario at the same speed, that means up to 1.55 miles in 4 minutes. Well, at the same speed given above, it would take 3 minutes and 52 seconds to go from end to end.

Same as above... "they simply didn't rush" suffices to explain the time. And that's only if you're inclusive of the Lone Mountain Neighborhood, otherwise it would take even longer.

My point here is that with the known information from the case, people can kind of pick and choose their own adventure. Meanwhile, the case is under no obligation to be satisfying to anyone. It's the observations which matter, even if they conflict with what "feels right" to you.

Richard

1/12/2025 11:34:51 am

All I will add, is I am going on the information given with some detail attached to it, such as Presidio Ave & Washington. Plus in 1989, Fouke saying he got the update at Arguello after passing Zodiac, bypassing Cherry and cobtinuing onwards. What I have said until I'm blue in the face that these details and versions do not work to make a cohesive timeline. In that respect, I am correct. If the reality is different as you considered may possibly have been the case, then that is down to law enforcement misinformation, errors, poor memory or a lack of documentation and recording of these events. I can only go on what they told us. My analysis is correct based on the information given. If the reality is different, which is not out of the question, then the blame lies with the information givers, not the person scrutinizing its validity. I believe in looking into the Zodiac case to see if what we have been told is the truth. It is better than just accepting what we have been told as fact, which is routinely the attitude of quarter-wits like Voigt.

Rich

1/12/2025 11:45:37 am

One last thing: I don't trust the lack of transparency given by law enforcement in the Stine case. No public admission of any of the events that occurred on Jackson St were reported in contemporary newspapers, a memorandum written partly in third person, the dismissive statement of "I don't know if Zelms saw anything". Fuck off, the guy was sitting on the side of the car near the pavement and you described the Zodiac down to his shoelaces. The so-called phone mix-up reported one year later, absent of the black man story. The endless contradictions in the 2007 documentary. I'm sorry VT, but some things don't smell right.

Robert

1/12/2025 04:08:54 pm

I agree, Richard, that something is very suspicious about the LE follow up, as you describe. I cannot believe it is incompetence but something perhaps deliberate to bait the killer. But rendering a real verdict on that requires more data from, alas, SFPD.

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A FABRICATED BROADCAST AT PRESIDIO HEIGHTS?

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